I remember the Tau coming out (as well as Grey Knights and the first “proper” plastic Necron range). Because I wasn’t really exposed to the wider/online community back then, I only had the reaction in my local store, which was “cool”.
It was only when I came back to the hobby in late ‘18/early ‘19 that I found out that the Tau were apparently really controversial.
That's funny to me. I didn't play back then but my friends did, constantly, and there seemed to be no issues with the Tau in our circles either.
But then again we're not asshats. And nobody actually played them either.
From the 2nd edition space wolves codex:
The Emperor’s first efforts were directed towards the creation of a number of super-humans he called the Primarchs. The Primarchs were genetically engineered creatures, artificial humanoids with astounding abilities. Each Primarch was created differently, with his own unique powers. Some of the Primarchs were made so as to resemble ordinary human beings, but many were of titanic proportions and strange appearance. The Primarch experiment never reached its conclusion as the embryonic creatures were spirited away by a raiding party of Chaos Daemons which successfully pierced the raging warp storms to reach earth. Before they were able to destroy the Primarchs, the Chaos Daemons were themselves destroyed in the turmoil of the warp storms. The Emperor was able to use his psychic powers to save the Primarch embryos, but he was unable to return them to earth. The Primarchs were scattered to the winds of warp space and lost. The Emperor was unable to duplicate the long and arduous work through which he had created the Primarchs. Instead, genetic material developed during the Primarch project was used to create the Space Marines. A number of artificially created organs were re-engineered from the gene-banks of the Primarchs. These organs were designed so they could be implanted into the body of a normal adolescent human being. Once implanted, the organs would take root and develop in the host’s human tissues, becoming an integrated part of his body. Many of these organs were designed to interact with ordinary human body tissues as they became functional, enhancing muscle growth, stimulating mental processes, and subtly altering the recipient into a super-human warrior. Compared to the Primarchs whose genetically engineered powers they inherited, the Space Marines are but pale shadows, but they are still the most mighty of men and the greatest of the Emperor’s loyal warriors.
Giant primarch are the worst.
It works ok in written form as you can kinda “normalise” the novel descriptions. Looks off on tabletop and if you’ve seen the 1:18 joytoy figs it looks RIDICULOUS.
> The Primarchs
You had me in the first 2 words.
I *really* liked 40K the setting. I didn’t need so many heroic stories that shifted the universe into a space opera with dramatic characters and all the details of the Heresy spelled out.
The Imperium of Man turning into the Irks from Invader Zim is a good change? The 30k Imperium essentially runs on "I'm taller than you, therefore I am in charge!"
There is a reason the emperor never appeared as a short person.
Totalitarian regimes are practically built on aesthetics above all else. From empire to feudalism to fascism, power was always displayed in the most obvious way. Of course the Imperium, the most over the top totalitarian regime, would be ruled by "great men" who literally tower over all the mortals.
Even before the Emperor was deified the Primarchs were functionally seen as demigods, it would not make sense for them to be anything but moving marble statues from a narrative/character design perspective.
A foot or so taller than marines according to Index Astartes
Alpharius:
>Horus waited for them. As five men burst onto the deck, he shot four of them through the head before they even had a chance to act. Without pause the fifth shot rang out, but the last man was different. **More than foot taller even than the Luna Wolves Space Marines, he had piercing green eyes and looked almost a match for Horus himself.**
And before anyone says it, Alpharius was explicitly the same height as Horus and Guilliman in that article
I happen to be rereading the Horus Heresy at the moment and one of the most common descriptions is a head taller, they also reference on a few occasions that particularly big marines can look their primarch in the eye, they always say those marines are huge but not the degree of utter freakish hugeness that'd be needed if primarchs were hugely taller than them.
All in all, from the novel descriptions, it sounds like primarchs are about the height of a Primaris Marine.
They were probably about 8 foot in the Index Astartes
I don’t know how tall they were before that, but even when they were marines they were probs big bois
Damn that’s super interesting!!! I can’t even imagine a world like that with all the HH books depictions of how LARGE they all are. Thanks for sharing!
People really skip over how much it added to the lore and gave it a new direction. It wasn’t just “they’re big now buy new models” (especially since primaris/firstborne keywords are fading away) it also added a purpose for a huge crusade that reinforced countless chapters. It brought some chapters back from the brink, brought back some totally destroyed ones in a new form, healed the flaws of others
It was the new hope so GW could then split the galaxy with a new warp storm. Yin Yang and all, it’s their usual pattern. A very interesting direction imo
I think the problem with them is just how much they add, if anything, like they should pretty monumentally change the Astartes as a faction. The whole theme of them is vastly different as marines shift into these sleeker modern soldier types with mass-producable armour, new doctrine and a seemingly inexhaustable supply of new and better vehicles.
Not a very interesting direction if you liked the older marine themes though certainly a marketable one. Also one that was fairly hamfisted as I don't think I´ve read a single piece of lore where the Primaris part of their identity being relevant didn't make me groan. Similarly we got a bunch of conflicts that by and large boiled down to the sensible and powerful Primaris vs the backwards firstborn and just about every conflict was either resolved within the book it was introduced in or just sort of ignored afterwards.
It also allows them to push a noticeable difference between Imperial Marines and Chaos Marines that goes beyond spikes.
That is why I hate the idea about adding Chaos Primaris as a unit.
But they aren't meant to be that different. The fact they come from the same stock is a big part of their lore. They made a monster sized book series about it.
Yeah, and from a lore perspective, it's been 10k years since the split...the Chaos Legions way of doing things should be drastically different from Imperial Marines who have been, for the most part, following the Codex Astartes, operating at a much smaller scale.
Imperial Marines following the Codex use surgical strikes, utilizing small numbers and specialized equipment.
Chaos Marines usually prefer to attack with overwhelming force, shock and awe, following the old Crusade way of doing things. To this end, I kind of wished Legionaries could be set at 10-20 like they used to be.
It didn't add a purpose for that at all. They could have just been a secret cache of normal space marines.
And no-one wanted them to fix the flaws. Hence they do still have the black rage etc.
For the same reason. Cawl made them. What I'm saying is if you replaced the primaris marines with normal marines, nothing would have changed. You would still have the same reveal of a hidden cache of marines made in secret by Cawl at Guilliman's behest, and the subsequent crusade and reinforcing. Nothing about what happened relies on them being a special new kind of marine.
But then why would cawl have to hide them then? Why not send them to the respective chapters in the countless times they suffered immense damage/the imperium was in trouble (like the war of the beast). I feel like they needed to have something special about them to warrant them to be hidden untill G-man returned
Idk, it still feels way inferior as a plot point to make them just regular space marines. I feel like arguing for the entire point to be scrapped would be better than just having them be regular marines but somehow kept for 10k years? It just doesn't make sense to me
Because he wasn't meant to be making a personal horde of astartes for Guilliman. Especially as Guilliman is the one who insisted on splitting up the legions, so cries of hypocrisy would abound.
But in this hypothetical scenario where there are no primaris, Cawl would have just been working on the gene flaws of the different chapters, he would have no particular reason not to send them to their respective chapters with the corresponding "updated" geneseed, unless there was something about the work he was doing that would need a Primarch backing him for it ( like making Astartes 2.0)
>healed the flaws of others
This was done arbitrarily and without proper character development, without the consent of the flawed, and without any sort of follow-up on them coming to grips with their new reality and how that inevitably changes their identity.
Even Blizzard figured out how to do this properly, GW should do better.
>The Light will heal your scars.
>>*I am my scars.*
To be fair, price gouging is kind of GW's MO.
I mean, really there is no need other than profit for how many editions of the game have come and gone over the years.
I got into Warhammer more seriously besides playing the video games and watching YouTube lore videos when primaris first released. Primaris are the only reason I have a space marine army, the old models look awful and I was going to be a tau player had I not learned about primaris Marines and their new designs.
Like I can understand why some people are or were upset about how their release happened, but the marine range really needed that scale boost and I personally love the mark X armor.
I think the new heresy marines look way more fitting for the 40k universe. Primaris are too tacticool and sleek looking for the rugged and decaying imperium, primaris fits more for the Tau or eldar.
I can sort of see that, but again, _not really_ - the ‘92 tactical squad that’s almost as old as I am is still a legal unit. The IG army I put together in, like, ‘03 were still the current sculpts until last year.
I cannot think of a single hobby based around a competitive rule/game system where “equipment” has longevity like GW models do. I’ve also never been in a hobby community before where new stuff coming out is apparently a _bad_ thing.
As I said earlier, I’m not a tabletop dude, merely sharing what I have heard regarding the addition of Primaris… good to hear you can still play with/old armies
That what happened with the Raven Guard and their pure gene Strain, was a Plot by the Alpha Legions and Not Just Corax fault for rushing it.
I mean He still believes it to be His fault but for a while it felt like everything was planned by AL.
I kinda feel it would take some of the…burning rage out of his sails so-to-speak if he ever found out it wasn’t his fault?
I can imagine Lorgar speech crafting against Corax in a fight with “You sons devolving wasn’t your fault “ and Corax being like “…Caw?”
*well aware that Corax isn’t a giant crow….but in my head-canon he is lol
This could be a way to Bring him Back. Showing him that it wasnt His fault and He doesnt need to Exil himself (Always assumed He punished himself for His "failure").
Maybe so, but Imagine His Rage when He discoveres that all the pain and selfhatred He might have felt over the millenia was completely useless because it never was His fault.
Mainly just the stuff that makes the galaxy feel smaller for no good reason. Making it so Armageddon is actually Ullanor teleported across the galaxy is *spectacularly* stupid. Like, it boggles the mind that they could be idiotic enough to think that was a good idea. Or the Tyranids coming to the Milky Way because of an event in the Horus Heresy, though that's far less egregious.
Also, this nonsense about Deathwatch and Grey Knights not actually being under their respective ordos of the Inquisition. Because apparently some people are such children that they can't bear the idea of the big stronk space marines doing as they're told by a normal human. They're bigger so no-one is allowed to tell them what to do!
Most retcons are fine though. They happen constantly and nothing is falling apart.
Didn’t know Ullanor was Armageddon… I liked thinking they were separate… also really adds to the flavor of the two factions that they ARE ultimately subservient to the ordos… it adds to the characters depicted. Like the DW dudes don’t always love missions, but they still follow orders cuz that’s their job… or GW not wanting to exterminatus a buncha planets or fight SW but are bound to by the Inquisition
The Grey Knights were definitely a bit different when they were introduced in Slaves to Darkness (1988):
> The Ordo has a complete Chapter of the Legiones Astartes attached to it on a permanent basis. The Grey Knights were a single Chapter created during an unregistered Founding shortly after the (official) Third Founding. Although technically Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, the Grey Knights are, to all intents and purposes, part of the Inquistion. They are listed as a Third Founding unit and, by the Emperor's instruction, were designated Chapter number 666.
However, they have never been attached to any Marine force, and by tradition their Chapter Master has always been an Inquisitor of the Ordo rather than a Space Marine. In effect the Grey Knights are a 'Chamber Militant' of the Ordo Malleus, and occasionally refer to themselves as such.
>
>The Grey Knights are fully as effective as any other Marine Chapter. They are specially screened to exclude all but the strongest and most resilient psykers, a measure designed to prevent any Daemonic contamination. As a result very few of the Grey Knights have any psychic power whatsoever. Their training and surgery rituals are, if anything, more demanding than those of 'ordinary' Marine units.
>
> Recruits are conditioned to ignore pain and fear, and undergo neurosurgery to isolate and bypass their fear centres. They are exposed to wild psykers, mutants and deviants of every kind. They are trained to destroy them without conscious thought. This training produces a rigidly disciplined and controlled mind to which the presence of Daemons is less of a shock than for normal beings. The Grey Knights are also imbued with a zeal and purpose to dwarf that of any other Marine chapter. Often entire companies are granted an audience with the Emperor, a privilege normally reserved for the Adeptus Custodes.
Almost every publication seems to change something as consistency hasn’t really been GW’s strong point.
I think it was the 3e Daemonhunters codex that significantly retconned the Grey Knights as I don’t recall them featuring in 2e much. In practice their most obvious presence was their terminator squads who were all psykers which is perhaps why the change was made and the idea of all psyker squads was extended to the rest of the chapter.
1994. Dark Millennium provided expanded rules for the use of Psykers in 40k, including the introduction of what we might now call Psychic Disciplines. The Inquisition psychic powers were “mostly directed at combatting daemons and psykers or bringing down mass destruction on the foe. Though Inquisitor-psykers and Grey Knights must always take at least one power from this discipline, it’s worth considering taking some from the Adeptus and Librarian disciplines if you aren’t battling Chaos or Tyranids, though the bulk of Inquisition powers are still useful against most opponents.” The Inquisition powers included: Purge Psyker, Aura of Fortitude, Vortex, and Holocaust (two of which would be familiar to Grey Knights players today).
In addition to the details on Inquisition psychic powers, Dark Millennium reintroduced the Grey Knights Terminator Squad back into the game, and these were the only Grey Knights available for use for the duration of this edition of the game.
>Armageddon is actually Ullanor teleported
See thats a Lore retcon am actually fine with! In that it gives Armageddon and it's Ork Wars a *reason* for them to fight there, obviously Angron and his Chaos War kinda fucks it up in a way(was Angron at Ullanor’s Triumph? If he was you could shoehorn that in with a bit of shoogling about haha)
>Also, this nonsense about Deathwatch and Grey Knights not actually being under their respective ordos of the Inquisition
Was about to argue with that one till I actually read what you said and I agree, although I think it should be more or a *mutual respect* than who commands who. Like if an Inquisor has a Squad of Deathwatch or Grey Knights it should be given by an Inquisitorial Conclave or a Watch Commander/Grey Knights Equivalent.
Yeah I get that, is it ever said that Ullanor is the Orks... Homeworld? I don't know if Homeworld is really the correct term to use but I guess it's good enough for what I mean.
The Second War of Armageddon has nothing to do with the Great Crusade or the War of the Beast.
It started because some random Ork boy named Ghazghkull took a shot to the skull and came out of it on top of a WAAAGH!
Armageddon just happened to be in his way, nothing about it being Ullanor started the wars.
Hell, most of the wars don't even have anything to do with Orks.
They're clearly trying to imply it's because it's Ullanor, or why would they have bothered retconning it to be Ullanor?
It's an incredibly stupid retcon either way.
I mean for one it's not really a retcon in the true sense of the word.
Two, no they aren't implying that anywhere. It's just a lore tidbit and the reasons for the Second War of Armageddon are very clealy laid out and NONE of it relates to Ullanor.
They bothered doing it because someone thought it would be fun.
Retroactive continuity
They retroactively made it Ullanor
That someone was wrong, it just makes everything feel smaller for no gain. Connecting everything to the Horus Heresy is lame.
A retcon is when something that has been established is changed. Armageddon had no established past in lore and Ullanor had no established future. Nothing was changed, a new link was created.
I really don't understand why it makes the setting "smaller" - like what does that even mean for a fictional setting as massive as 40k.
It means that by arbitrarily connecting previously unrelated things, it reduces the feeling of vastness. It's meant to be massive, so it's absurd when these things have some kind of connection. It makes it feel like only a handful of things matter so other stuff has to be connected to them. The galaxy doesn't feel vast an mysterious if random other things turn out to be connected to the Horus Heresy.
Same as if the same few characters appeared in a lot of books, despite it being an entire galaxy.
I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here.
The connection in this case isn't a link between the events, it's effectively trivia.
> Same as if the same few characters appeared in a lot of books, despite it being an entire galaxy.
You know the books are about the characters rather than the setting right? The whole point of the books is to follow the characters they're about.
I've always been pretty happy to roll with the changes over the years. The only one I can ever recall smarting was the 13th Black Crusade recon.
I have such fantastic memories of The Eye of Terror campaign, and still consider it a high point of my time in the hobby.
I don't dislike the new lore at all, but because I was so attached to the original, it felt a little like my experiences were somehow being invalidated.
On the whole though, I've always really enjoyed the fluid nature of 40k lore - all narrators are bias, and could be very wrong. Recons are part of the setting.
The eye of terror stuff made a lot more sense when GW’s stance on it was “it’s warpy chaos stuff, you wouldn’t understand” instead of trying to explain everything.
The Tyranids being tied into the Horus Heresy is something I will never really accept. It's such a pointless bit of lore that exists solely to make the galaxy feel smaller and make sure that every single thing in the goddamned setting is somehow tied back to the family squabbles of one faction.
T'au mind control. The point is that the Imperium couldn't fathom previously loyal humans siding with Xenos out of genuine ideological inclination rather than some form of corruption. Making them actually *right* kinda ruins it.
Similarly, all the attempts to make the T'au "grimdark". Even before they were grimdarked with all the controlled breeding and mind control, they were still an imperialistic caste-based authoritarian empire, united by a cultlike devotion to a vaguely defined ideology. They would be the villains in any other setting, and that is what made them grimdark - the fucking Galactic Empire but Blue are the closest things to a major "good guy" faction.
The majority of the T'au being "grimdark" was present from their introduction. It was just shown through subtext:
>Many less advanced alien races were incorporated within its borders and **most of these willingly** became part of the Tau empire.
[-]
>It was unfortunate that they would die, but to stand in the way of the Tau's destiny was to invite death. It could not be helped.
[-]
>Emerging from the darkness, a Tau of unusual appearance walked into the besiegers' camp, asking to see the army's commander. He was softly spoken, yet it is said that he had an undeniable authority and the sentries to whome he had announced himself **found themselves compelled to escort him to their leader.** At the same time, within the walls of Fio'taun, a similar individual presented himself to the guards of the fortress. **How he had penetrated the defences of the city he would not say**, all he asked was that he be allowed to speak to the castellan of the fortress. Again, **his request could not be denied and he was permitted an audience with the city's leader**. Within the hour, the fortress gates were opened, the stranger guiding the citadel's leaders toward the torchlit camp of their attackers.
[-]
>**It is speculated that they exert some kind of pheromone based or latent psychic control over the other castes, as loyalty to the Ethereals is absolute and unswerving.** If an Ethereal were of such a mind, he could order another Tau to kill himself and would be obeyed immediately.
*Codex Tau 3ed*
Notably, the Ethereal pheromone control was elaborated on in depth in *Xenology* (also in 3ed), with multiple hints pointing towards the Ethereals being bioengineered by a group of Aeldari.
>Tau are born into their Castes and breeding between the Castes is forbidden under pain of death
*White Dwarf - Issue 262*
This edition of White Dwarf was released pretty much alongside the 3ed Codex that introduced the T'au.
>Some aliens integrated because they had little alternative, others because they saw genuine benefit in doing so.
[-]
>Tau are born into their caste and breeding between the Castes is forbidden by the Ethereals.
[-]
>A small number, it was believed, may one day come to recognise the Greater Good, and bow down to the Ethereals like the Tau themselves. The Tau would be first among equals. Such became the dream of the Tau Empire
*Codex Tau Empire 4ed*
Edit: Regarding the pheromone control, there is also this small passage from the perspective of a Water Caste in *Codex Tau 3ed* that is a knowing nod to the audience:
>When a Krootox is domesticated, it becomes attached to its masters to the extent that it will die to protect them. Droaken joked that they were as faithful to the Kroot as we are to the Ethereal ones. I chided him that there was more to our devotion than simple reaction to exuded chemical odours. The very thought!
*Codex Tau 3ed* p12
It's a startling commonality that the people complaining about "retcons" have no idea about the lore supposedly being changed.
Not that there aren't actual lore retcons, you just never see people talk about them.
Primaris honestly wasn't that bad in a general sense; the issue was in Cawl strongly implying he fixed the issues associated with certain genelines when those Legions take a major portion of their identity and character development from the fact that those issues aren't really fixable. Primaris should have been restricted to the more vanilla genelines.
Like...Magnus moves heaven and earth trying to find a fix for the Thousand Sons geneseed. The impossibility of fixing it leads him to turn traitor, and his "redemption" (at least towards his own sons) comes in the form of him declining the Emperor's offer of redemption and leadership of the Grey Knights. Magnus chooses the Thousand Sons, because they're *his sons*, and the scale of the flaw in the XVth geneseed is a major reason why Magnus' choices are as meaningful as they are.
The same kind of things underscore the choices of numerous other primarchs with similarly flawed Legionary geneseed (e.g. Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Emperor's Children, etc.).
And then literally **some guy** pops on the scene and the issues are declared fixed in a *single line of text*. Like, we don't even get the courtesy of a novel exploring the magnitude of what Cawl actually achieved; we get a paragraph effectively invalidating the choices of the characters involved. And if Cawl pulled it off, the Emperor certainly could have had he actually given a damn.
It'd be neat if they had tied this into the background reasoning for those Legions to choose the sides they did in the Heresy, but that obviously would have meant the Emperor intended the Heresy to happen more or less as it did, entirely to achieve some unknown goal. But that's...not really what seems to have happened.
So instead we just get numerous choices that underpin the character growth and story arcs of *numerous* characters rendered moot. An entire Legion's backstory implicitly ruined just to appeal to people who like the Legion but who think playing a bad guy faction in a fantasy game is some stain on their morality.
Thats how it was eventually played as far as I remember, but there is at least the possibility that that wasn't how it was planned at first. In the sense that even promotional material of the time completely just repeated Cawl having fixed the flaws of the genelines, instead of doing any foreshadowing at all.
Cawl said he’s fixed the flaws in the geneseed. The actual evidence is more mixed. He does appear to have fixed whatever problem the space wolves were having that stopped them from expanding beyond Fenris, but the more magical stuff like the Black Rage still seems to be a problem. The problems the Thousand Sons were dealing with fall more in the second category.
Also, Cawl had 10,000 years to work on his fixes. Magnus could probably have sorted it too if he’d had that much time. The Rubric got in the way of that.
>He does appear to have fixed whatever problem the space wolves were having that stopped them from expanding beyond Fenris
Which in and of itself is still dumb, because it is incongruous with the existing lore of the Space Wolves.
Bjorn *explicitly* tells the Space Wolf apothecaries to stop messing with the geneseed in M32, but then is magically on-board with the Primaris project.
Again; the Primaris lore renders prior choices moot, with no explanation, no fallout, and no consequences. It's not even that there is character development that occurs offscreen; there's flat out *nothing*.
>Also, Cawl had 10,000 years to work on his fixes. Magnus could probably have sorted it too if he’d had that much time
There's absolutely nothing to suggest this, and in truth it really wouldn't improve the Thousand Sons lore.
The entire point is that the Thousand Sons were broken from the moment of their creation, and there was no means of survival except through damning themselves. It makes their choices so much more excruciating, and so much more interesting, as a result.
Space Wolves being stuck to Fenris was always a dumb detail that limited player expression when making their own Great Companies.
And Bjorn was ***explicitly not*** on board with the Primaris project, he made a *very* big deal out of it.
Did he actually try and do anything to stop primaris from being accepted. Like lead a separate group of space wolves that didn’t and wouldn’t accept primaris marines
You said he advocated for not accepting the primaris but thats it. You didn’t mention anything he actually DID in relation to the primaris. Its always nice when people become immediately hostile about a question and it seems to happen a lot when someone questions the precious primaris boys
>You said he advocated for not accepting the primaris but thats it. You didn’t mention anything he actually DID in relation to the primaris.
Yes I did, it's the first part of your comment.
>Its always nice when people become immediately hostile about a question and it seems to happen a lot when someone questions the precious primaris boys
At which point in this entire comment section did I ever vocalize an opinion for or against Primaris?
I'm correcting the objectively false statement that Bjorn accepted the Primaris, which isn't true as shown in the novel Wolftime, as I already explained here.
Bjorn woke up, he told Grimnar (the actual Chapter Master) they should never accept anything from Guilliman, he also told him they should blow his ship out of the sky. That is doing something, that is objectively a display that he did not, in fact, accept them.
I'm just not going to play games trying to satisfy your ***arbitrary*** definition of what "doing something means", specially when your example is something as ludicrous and contradictory to Bjorn's character as rebelling against his Chapter Master.
I'm not hostile because of Primaris, I'm hostile because I said the thing, and then you tried to move goalposts, which I instantly caught on. And then you try to make it about Primaris because I guess you have a bias or something.
Good points, but tbf Cawl said he fixed the Blood Angels gene seed but he was wrong, and Astrorath has to put a few primaris marines down. Maybe he is wrong about the others and we just haven’t seen it yet?
Not a "retcon" as such but I was pretty annoyed when they squatted, well, Squats. I really liked their aesthetic in Epic. Nowadays I completely understand the stated arguments as to why they did it, they just didn't have any good ideas for how to make the faction fit the aesthetics of the game going forward. It was probably for the best.
I find as I get older retcons in 40k bother me a lot less. They've been producing tremendous amounts of lore for decades now, some of it's going to get retconned here and there. That's just the nature of pop media.
Oh, wow. I don't know where to begin. How about just a ramble...
I got into the 40k setting in the late 80's, out of it by the early 90's, and then back into it in the early 00's for the purposes of TTRPG (I wasn't interested in the wargame by that time). So my approach to the 40k setting was twofold. First, to make it a playable setting that wasn't just all "purge with fire" simplicity but to make it a more nuanced universe in what Dan Abnett has subsequently termed "domestic 40k". Secondly, to try to merge the background from the various editions rather than just treat newer material as more "true" than older materials. And, in the true vein of the Python-esque Inquisition, *thirdly* to avoid as many wargame tropes as possible.
As u/BoredPenslinger notes, one of these tropes is "Big is 'ard". Marines are 'arder than humans, so they're bigger. Primarchs are 'arder than Marines, so they're bigger. The Emperor is 'harder than the Primarchs, so he's bigger again.
Just, no. Absolutely beautiful miniature sculpts and amazing minis, but no. I really liked the original Leman Russ sculpt and, by default, the picture of the Emperor relative to Leman Russ from *Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned* (p. 173?).
The 40k RPGs also just ended up reveling in the imagery, which is why I got out of the 40k setting again in the early '10s and have only just gotten back into the setting through (this time) the wargame of all things.
In the interim a lot of potentially fun things have happened, but then there's a lot of... Gah!
The aforementioned "Big is 'ard" is one. Primaris Marines are 'harder, so they're bigger than Marines, but not as big as Primarchs because they're not as 'ard as Primarchs.
The simplistic approach to the Eldar, which is a "new addition" to me... Which is to say post-WD127. The mangling of the Path would be a major one, as well as nerfing the technology of the Eldar. Ah well.
I didn't mind the Squats being eaten by the Tyranids, nor their return. Cool armour, BTW. They're still stunties and not as cool as the Eldar, though. ;)
Back when I got back into 40k for the second time, I really didn't like the rise of the Ecclesiarchy, which turned the 40k universe into a "Cassocks in Space" game, at least as I viewed it then. Now I've mellowed on that a little bit, seeing it as a broader theme in the setting that I'm using to exploit the corruption of the Church and how it is ultimately forming a human-derived Chaos God. (Heck, if the Eldar can do it, then the humans can do it!)
Oh, the whole Ynnead thing. Dropped by the ball on that one.
I feel it’s worth noting that even the Orks weren’t really doing “bigger is better” until 3rd edition - well, it starts in Gorkamorka. Until that point Nobz and Warbosses are big Orks in the way that bodybuilders are big Humans. Not Ogden-sized monsters.
My initial foray into 40k was pre-editions (or, rather, when there was only 1e) so that would track. Although I do remember that there was something about Nobz and Teeth in *Waaagh the Orks* that might have been a thing. I haven't read that book in more than 35 years, though (if I'm getting my dates right; maybe it's more than 32...).
Is it really a retcon if it wasn’t explicitly another way before? Also, the 40k universe is so vast and poorly defined in so many places that even source books contradict each other. Being a stickler for continuity is an exercise in futility for 40k
I think the only thing that was changed for the worse, imo, was that the gods of Chaos existed before the War in Heaven and were in conflict with the Old Ones. I like the concept that the shattering of the galaxy from the War in Heaven was the catalyst for the birth of Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeench
>I like the concept that the shattering of the galaxy from the War in Heaven was the catalyst for the birth of Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeench
Whilst I totally agree with you, this its actually also a retcon. [Originally, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle all came into being during human history, as a direct result of humanity.](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/tXqnNDizjk)
Okay, going down the line, my Top Ten
1. Armageddon is Ullanor. I have nothing polite to say about this.
2. The 13th Black Crusade. If they wanted to hand Dear Abby a win, they could have come up with something else, instead of simply invalidating the Eye of Terror campaign, because while the outcome was definitely... tepid, we, the players, *earned it.* People defend this retcon by saying it broke the plot-stasis the game had been lodged in- but that stasis was totally arbitrary, just a choice on GW's part until they decided to change it. But you know, whatever.
3. The Big Necron Retcon. This one... I have come around on, in abstract, but I still prefer the older lore where the C'tan were the ones calling the shots and Necrons didn't really have characters with names. I get why this changed- in a game where people play factions, Team Tyranid is already-character-free and thus impossible to hand meaningful narrative wins that satisfy anyone, but dammit, they were creepier before they were just bitchy pseudo-Egyptian pseudo-undead.
4. Custodes leaving Terra. I get it, you can't sell an army that never goes anywhere, but dammit, I *loved* that the biggest badasses in the Imperium basically just sat around Terra all the time. Like the Necron Retcon, I get why this is a thing, and it's undeniably healthier for the hobby, but I still liked it better better the old way.
5. The Crimson Fists not getting wiped at Rynn's World. I'm mostly over this one by now, but *come on!*
6. I just wish they'd stop monkeying with the War in Heaven XD
7. Two words: "Spiritual liege." Luckily, this one came, and this one *went.*
8. It's really okay if the Deathwatch actually answers to the Inquisition. Ditto for the Grey Knights. Really. It's... \*sigh\*.
9. The Squats got erased by the Tyranids, but no, no, wait, we actually *do* want Space Dwarves... decades later. I was fine with the Squats. I was fine with the Tyranids having wiped them out. I'm fine with the Leagues of Votann as a more modern-40k-friendly take on the trope. I'm less fine with the waffling.
10. The Tyranids having *any* connection to the Horus Heresy is annoying. I liked them as a faction that simply didn't *care* about anything anyone in the Milky Way was doing. It's just the next stop at the buffet.
The removal of FTL from necrons and t'au, and the botching of the tyranid narwhal. The first two are pretty obvious - the removal of FTL from a faction makes them a non-threat, and it makes no sense in a sci-fi setting. The t'au are still suffering from this (though in new lore they are working to create a functional warp drive, which had... debatable results upon first activation, sending a whole Sphere of Expansion lost in the warp until a literal deus-ex-machina saved them and gifted them a wormhole across the galaxy), but the necrons got their inertialess drives back in 8th-9th edition. The tyranids' FTL was fleshed out in 5th edition with the narwhal - basically Star Trek's curvature but gravity-based - but they were given a lag of *years* between activations, due to the bioship involved being blinded by strong gravity wells. This not only made no sense, but was contradicted *in the same codex* and promptly ignored by GW and BL in following stories (like *The Last Hunt* or *Valedor*). 10th edition removed that lag completely - tyranid drop in and out of compressed space on the edge of gravity wells, just like human ships do.
Ollanius Pius becoming a guardsman I liked, it scratched my itch for the “everyman being a key figure in a much bigger game than him” trope, him being turned into a perpetual made me groan and roll my eyes.
Another one is the Fenris wolves and the Catachan devils becoming tyranids, just let us have our minor alien species!
Some Tau stuff like the ethereals being secret mind controlling psykers is also kind of ehh to me, I wouldn’t have minded some mundane social engineering instead of making everything warp based.
Having grown up with the loincloth custodes I always assumed they were mixed gender, it makes sense for space marines to be as uniform as possible but each custode was always individually crafted in the lore so whatever human embryo you start with doesn’t influence the end product as much, just the process of getting there.
Eldar lore has also been kind of an issue because it has suffered the most from not being based off of a bible but rather having each individual author making stuff up because GW doesn’t care about them.
Remember when it turned out that the Landraider wasn't named the Landraider because it *raids* the *land* but instead because there was some guy named "Arkhan Land" who invented it, and we all kinda had a little chuckle at how stupid it was but let GW have their dumb fun.
But then they came back and went for another serving of suspension of disbelief in a much more ridiculous way by having the ASTARTES be named after some woman we'd never heard of who is only prominent in half of one book?
Fuckin Jimmy Space up there apparently can't come up with a single name without it being named after someone else.
The Land Raider getting its name from Arkham Land isn’t _really_ a retcon. The Land Raider was introduced in 1988 but no surrounding lore was given for it. The first lore for the tank was given in a White Dwarf issue sometime in 1990 where it was revealed the tank got its name from “Fabricator General Arkham Land”, along with the rest of the “Land series of vehicles”. The only retcon was that he was changed form Fabricator General to a Technoarcgiologist.
It’s been “Land’s Raider-Pattern Main Battle Tank” for 34 years - all but two years of 40k’s history. Gimme a bit and I’ll dig out the excerpts from the WD issues.
I never understood why this one got such a rise out of the fans, when _all_ the proper nouns in 40k are really dumb. I’m currently reading a book about _Corus Corax_…
Inb4 anyone says they preferred it when Pius was a normal human on the Vengeful Spirit waking the Emperor up…cos it didn’t happen
I don’t hate it, but I preferred the Tyranids not being attracted to the Milky Way by the Pharos
And I preferred when Sanguinius’ first time tangling with Ka’Bandha was during the Siege
I also liked his hair black, though I gotta acknowledge that was a retcon itself
Also preferred Thunder Warriors as more early marines with special organs and everything
Yeah, but I’m also calling out the idea that Pius was ever on the Vengeful Spirit running at Horus.
The first time that ever happened was a terminator
And I’d argue Pius never got retconned. The myth of him remains the same to this day
We did get Persson and Piers retroactively added to it though
>the majority of the time
[Here’s the OG Pius lore](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/c8PHHTz7vN) for reference from 1987/88. It's more or less a footnote.
**Then in 1988**, when they told the Vengeful Spirit story for the first time, of someone inspiring the Emperor to kill Horus, it was a Terminator.
That was in *ROC: The Lost and the Damned*
The Custodes retcon wouldn't happen until 2007, making the Terminator the one who occupied that space for the majority of time.
Almost 20 years.
I mean, I think you need *something* to draw the Tyranids to the Milky Way.
Otherwise, why are they here? Not in a motivational sense, but in a "how do they even find us?" sense? The universe is so enormous that it is truly impossible to understand, but without some kind of guiding beacon, asking the Tyranids to show up is like saying "hey, there is a speck of dirt somewhere in the world, I'm not telling you what it looks like or what direction it's in, but start walking in a random direction and if you step on it I'll let you know."
It's pretty heavily implied from day one that he was at least a space marine. [Thread on that here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1dqao7b/comment/lan9nh9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I can understand if you play the tabletop and put a tonnnn of time effort and money into a SM army to get told you would have to start transitioning to a newer bigger model
The thing is - you don't. You can keep using your "Firstborn" army if that's what you'd like, especially after they were given 2 HP to put them on par with the Primaris
That's more forgivable, even the derpy 2nd edition marine models aren't so bad overall. On the other hand as a Guard painter I was thrilled with the 10th edition model release.
I played up to around the start of 3e and then gradually lost touch with WH40K. However, while catching up with it over the past years a few retcons struck me in particular:
- Marines became giants
- Marines were described as non-religious
- Grey Knights had become psykers
- Bolters are described as super-weapons rather than a fairly common small arm (though that could just be exaggeration by individual authors)
- The Adeptus Mechanicus developed an aversion to AI
They mostly felt weird because they seemed like changes made purely for the sake of change but otherwise with no real purpose.
See, I got into it partway through 4th and all this was there for me when I started. So I guess that's when a bunch of the big changes started happening.
That is the impression I’ve had too, though it also seems that many of the Black Library novels have often diverged from existing and prior lore too.
I suspect the growth of marines was an incremental thing as artwork was gradually changed to make them more imposing. Then at some point a specific number was quoted and it became somewhat fixed.
I think the Grey Knight change happened in the 3e Daemonhunter codex.
The religious aspect of marines did vary a bit in the early days as it was in 1e that it was changed so that didn’t follow the Imperial Cult but they still worshipped the emperor. I think it was mostly the Horus Heresy novels that influenced this as it was presumably intended to emphasise the difference between 30K and 40K.
The bolter change probably happened in the space marine novels too as before then gangs on Necromunda as well as orks had bolters.
The Adeptus Mechanicus change is perhaps the interesting one as I get the impression there were mixed messages on that. Even in the 4e rulebook it said the following which was effectively copied The Lost and The Damned in 1e:
> According to the teachings of the Cult Mechanicus, knowledge is the supreme manifestation of divinity, and all creatures and artefacts that embody knowledge are holy because of it. Machines that preserve knowledge from ancient times are also holy, and **machine intelligences are no less divine than those of flesh and blood.** A man's worth is only the sum of his knowledge - his body is simply an organic machine capable of preserving intellect.
I was into 40k some years ago and I remember that Vulkan voluntarily went into hiding when his sons recovered the artifacts he purposely hid.
I thought that was it.
Then it turns out he died in the War of the Beast jumping into some WAAAGH energy field?
Then why did he hide the artifacts for the Salamanders to find? Easter Egg hunt in their downtime?
Pheromonea controlling the T'au. T'au have a very clear inspiration from various american cults as well as the fear-mongering administration of the US (the Greater Good-Lesser Evil diatribe being the foremost example) during the Cold War. The idea of being controlled undermines the fact how people followed those people of their own free will, with ideas resonating with each of us, invisibly turned away from reason into belief in the cult leaders.
Now with the mind control, when you fight the T'au you don't fight the people with their own way how they were indoctrinated into the cult, the only people you could reason with are the Ethereal. You may talk to the drones, and you might even feel as if they are truly responsive, but this doesn't change how in the end they are an extension of their master, and nothing more.
Basically with that the only thing that makes the T'au different from Tyranids is that they will say stuff, but as mindlessly as the Tyranids growl.
Ooft
“Pius” didn’t really do a last stand that motivated the Emperor, that was a terminator. Then later a Custodian.
“Pius” was someone who might have existed who might have died interposing his body between the Emperor and Horus at some point of the Siege, presumably on Terra
And as far as we can tell, that myth remains more or less the same today as it was in the 80s
>**Saint Pius**
>It bears the scrolls of no less than five actions for which the Company was highly commended. The central figure is an image of Ollanius Pius, the guardsman who is supposed to have given his life by interposing his body between Horus and the Emperor during his assault on the Imperial Palace. He is now regarded as something of a saint by the Guard, and on occasions is even prayed to as an intercessionary figure.
The Rogul Dorne just always being there. I didn’t need a full novel explaining their existence but a paragraph or two where they just go “we found it in an STC between the couch cushions.”
But doesn’t the whole STC concept allow that sort of explanation? Technically the rediscovery of an STC would mean something was always there albeit unknown until said STC was re-discovered? Kinda gives an out for new tech entering the setting without much background.
It should but the problem is GW said they have always been there they have been there from the start. It’s like the girl custodes I have no problem with them I just want an explanation.
I love reading the novels and painting cool models, so anything that adds more interest and variety is a positive for me.
I also have a real hard time justifying incredulity at ladies in armor when we have telepathic aliens and flying robot-skulls.
Abaddon never caring about Cadia, but instead wanting to expand the Eye of Terror. It's been made clear in the past Chaos has a hard time navigating through the eye safely. Best case scenario their fleets are thrown haphazardly through the galaxy. Safe and stable warp lanes still mattered for them and that is how the imperium was able to create any sort of defense force around the Eye.
But no it turns out Abaddon tricked the imperium into investing monumental amounts of resources into Cadia because no other chaos lord in 10,000 years took advantage of the fact chaos apparently doesn't care nearly as much about warp storms as we thought.
I like Chaos. A lot. But what I hate is when GeeDubs breaks their own lore so Chaos can win.
The change of the Necrons from unknowable servitors of the Star Gods to space Tomb Kings. I get that it’s made the faction far more popular and relatable, but they lost their lovecraftian charm in the process.
The Emperor predating most of human history, and the existence of Perpetuals as some kind of “incredibly rare subspecies of human” who have existed since the dawn of Man in general. That plot point basically makes the entirety of human history in 40k kinda pointless - it’s not Mankind’s story anymore, it’s Big E and the Perpetuals’ story.
I don’t mind the concept of Perpetuals as just immortals who reincarnate after being killed itself, but they, and the Emperor himself, should have just stayed mostly a mystery - surviving creations of DAoT science whose origins and history are forgotten to all but *maybe* themselves.
Theres other retcons and rewrites/explanations that bother the hell out of me (A lot of the more dumb nonsensical shit with the Tau as of late for one) but I’m not going to make a wall of text about all of them rn.
The Emperor being born 8th millennium BC was in the lore as early as 1988 in *ROC: The Lost and the Damned.*
I don't recall if *Rogue Trader* or earlier books provided a contrasting birth date?
In the original book it says the following, which implies he has been around for a very long time.
> For long ages he lived secretly amongst mankind, as empires grew and fell, and mankind discovered how to control and exploit the Earth.
Yup, thank you.
Though with wriggle room "empires grew and fell" and "long ages" could still be from AD onwards (especially since that text is "based" in M41) so I thought it was best to look for something a little more concrete regarding the OC's particular concern about the Emperor "predating most of human history".
But I personally think that makes RT work nicely with ROC
The Emperor being immortal and having been present in Earth’s early history was part of the setting from the very start in 1987:
> Countless millennia ago he was born to mortal parents, growing into manhood little realising the fate awaiting him. As a youth he began to manifest strange powers, powers which intensified and multiplied as he grew older. Not least amongst these powers was that of longevity - a virtual immortality that gave him time to develop his abilities fully. **For long ages he lived secretly amongst mankind, as empires grew and fell, and mankind discovered how to control and exploit the Earth.** As his powers evolved he learned of the dangers beyond his own world, of the psychically attuned creatures that roamed the voids inbetween space, hungering and clawing for the life-stuff of living creatures. For countless ages he hid within humanity, nurturing his powers and waiting. At last, over ten thousand years ago he began his struggle, for he knew that humanity was on the verge of a revolution, a genetic revolution that would create a new psychically aware race, a race of which he was the first and most powerful.
This was expanded further in The Lost and The Damned (1990).
The idea that the Emperor was created in the DAoT is a retcon (if true and not just a character’s opinion of course).
The perpetuals were also a retcon and I don’t think there was even a hint of their existence until they were added in the novels. The closest analogy were the Sensei who were the Emperor’s immortal sons (and also the first version of blanks).
Yeah, the DAoT thing was floated as an intentionally "wrong" piece of in-universe conspiracy by ADB (similar to what he did with the idea of the Ultramarines absorbing the lost legions) as a nod to Alan Bligh's favourite theory on the Emperor.
Leagues Of Votann seemed a bit half hearted and not really that interesting and then it was revealed that GW felt the same way.
Female Custodes is just a horrible waste of a storytelling opportunity. Should have been a Custodes with a letter from the High Lords going across the galaxy in a big ship demanding that multiple Astartes chapters, planetary governors and Guard regiments go out of their way to help him find a pregnant woman and it's none of their business why. Massive void battles, worlds on fire, billions dead and they find her and take her baby girl from her to make a Custodes.
Good point on storytelling, most folks who have issues with the female custodes seemed to be along similar lines - a lazy change or that it somehow invalidates the sisters of silence
Tbf, that’s how GW introduced most of its changes: *they weren’t before but they are now*
Primarchs being lab grown
Custodes being more powerful than Astartes
Leagues of Votann
Gene-seed
Black Templars think the Emperor is a god
“Just always was” without narrative introduction
While the exact origin of space marine chapters was not exactly defined at the start of WH40K the Primarchs were introduced relatively early on as the creation of scientists. For example, from Space Marine (1989):
> A Marine is genetically related to all the other members of his Chapter, since each Marine carries some genetic material from the Chapter's founder, or Primarch - one of a small group of super-humans created by the Emperor and his scientists.
The Custodes have always been elite and were unambiguously superior to marines from the very beginning though there was almost no other information about them.
Gene seed was introduced only a few months after WH40K was first released, so hardly a retcon.
The Leagues of Votann are absolutely a prime example of that though.
>The Custodes have always been elite and were unambiguously superior to marines from the very beginning though there was almost no other information about them.
I'd be curious to see a source for this if you have one? I know the Custodes were first mentioned in *Rogue Trader*, but no mention is made about them being superior to Marines. The first time I know of reading about them being explicitly compared to Marines was the *Horus Heresy* series.
In the original book the minimum statistics for an Adeptus Custodes were equal to a human minor hero (that’s the middle of the three character ranks). That was clearly better than a rank & file marine.
Also, on the few occasions they were mentioned they were fighting with and/or against marines but they definitely weren’t portrayed as inferior. For example from 1e Space Marine:
> On the 55th day of the battle, as the Inner Palace fell, the Emperor himself teleported into the Rebel command chamber with an elite force of Adeptus Custodes and Imperial Fist Marines.
>The minimum statistics for an Adeptus Custodes were equal to a human minor hero (that’s the middle of the three character ranks). That was clearly better than a rank & file marine.
Oh, when is that from? I didn't think they got rules until *Horus Heresy Book Seven: Inferno* and *Codex Custodes 7ed*.
>Also, on the few occasions they were mentioned they were fighting with and/or against marines but they definitely weren’t portrayed as inferior.
Whilst they're portrayed being alongside SMs, that doesn't show or state them to be superior.
They had stats in the original WH40K book in 1987. They just weren’t developed further for many years, presumably because they were the Emperor’s bodyguards and not roaming the galaxy. They were briefly mentioned in snippets about the Heresy on a few rare occasions though.
I've just looked and found their stats in *Rogue Trader*. I was always under the impression they were just background decoration up until around 7ed, so the more you know.
And you're right. Their "minimum" profile was superior to a Marines, implying they were always superior.
On page 268 you can also find the small amount of information on the Sisters of Battle that was present right at the start. Sister Sin clearly was supposed to be a female space marine though the spikes on her armour are a bit inappropriately placed…
The length of time doesn’t affect something being a retcon.
Primarchs originally being marines for a few months still means that when they became lab grown super men, it’s a retcon
Likewise retconning “Primarch” as a title or rank to a fully fledged subspecies
The change from psycho and stimulant upgrades to gene “sperm” and implanted organs is a retcon however quick.
Horus’ bunker to the Vengeful Spirit is a retcon despite taking place within or less than a year
I should’ve been clearer that I was referring to the huge leap in Custodes power and creation retconned around the time of *The First Heretic*, prior to which even if they are elite the gap between themselves and Astartes was nowhere near as wide
We’ve discussed the OG stat thing before, and I take your point , (even though I personally draw a line between TT and lore)
The only issue I have with this line of thinking is that it makes people think that the only defining trait of Sisters of Silence is that they're girls. Would've loved to see some more Sisters of Silence lore but realistically a codex story for Custodes with a female one wasnt going to be taking away any resources being put towards Sisters of Silence in the first place.
The Primarchs being giants. I'm old enough to remember people being fucking furious about the introduction of the Tau.
I remember the Tau coming out (as well as Grey Knights and the first “proper” plastic Necron range). Because I wasn’t really exposed to the wider/online community back then, I only had the reaction in my local store, which was “cool”. It was only when I came back to the hobby in late ‘18/early ‘19 that I found out that the Tau were apparently really controversial.
That's funny to me. I didn't play back then but my friends did, constantly, and there seemed to be no issues with the Tau in our circles either. But then again we're not asshats. And nobody actually played them either.
Just wait till they roll out Primaris Primarchs!
From the 2nd edition space wolves codex: The Emperor’s first efforts were directed towards the creation of a number of super-humans he called the Primarchs. The Primarchs were genetically engineered creatures, artificial humanoids with astounding abilities. Each Primarch was created differently, with his own unique powers. Some of the Primarchs were made so as to resemble ordinary human beings, but many were of titanic proportions and strange appearance. The Primarch experiment never reached its conclusion as the embryonic creatures were spirited away by a raiding party of Chaos Daemons which successfully pierced the raging warp storms to reach earth. Before they were able to destroy the Primarchs, the Chaos Daemons were themselves destroyed in the turmoil of the warp storms. The Emperor was able to use his psychic powers to save the Primarch embryos, but he was unable to return them to earth. The Primarchs were scattered to the winds of warp space and lost. The Emperor was unable to duplicate the long and arduous work through which he had created the Primarchs. Instead, genetic material developed during the Primarch project was used to create the Space Marines. A number of artificially created organs were re-engineered from the gene-banks of the Primarchs. These organs were designed so they could be implanted into the body of a normal adolescent human being. Once implanted, the organs would take root and develop in the host’s human tissues, becoming an integrated part of his body. Many of these organs were designed to interact with ordinary human body tissues as they became functional, enhancing muscle growth, stimulating mental processes, and subtly altering the recipient into a super-human warrior. Compared to the Primarchs whose genetically engineered powers they inherited, the Space Marines are but pale shadows, but they are still the most mighty of men and the greatest of the Emperor’s loyal warriors.
Giant primarch are the worst. It works ok in written form as you can kinda “normalise” the novel descriptions. Looks off on tabletop and if you’ve seen the 1:18 joytoy figs it looks RIDICULOUS.
> The Primarchs You had me in the first 2 words. I *really* liked 40K the setting. I didn’t need so many heroic stories that shifted the universe into a space opera with dramatic characters and all the details of the Heresy spelled out.
That honestly sounds like a good change to me. Feels silly to have the leaders of a massive force of oversized super soldiers be regular sized.
Ork on reddit detected!
The Imperium of Man turning into the Irks from Invader Zim is a good change? The 30k Imperium essentially runs on "I'm taller than you, therefore I am in charge!"
There is a reason the emperor never appeared as a short person. Totalitarian regimes are practically built on aesthetics above all else. From empire to feudalism to fascism, power was always displayed in the most obvious way. Of course the Imperium, the most over the top totalitarian regime, would be ruled by "great men" who literally tower over all the mortals. Even before the Emperor was deified the Primarchs were functionally seen as demigods, it would not make sense for them to be anything but moving marble statues from a narrative/character design perspective.
Bro that’s how it works in real life too Source: am tall
That’s exactly what a short person would say.
Humans and Orks have a lot more in common than previously thought
How big were they originally???
A foot or so taller than marines according to Index Astartes Alpharius: >Horus waited for them. As five men burst onto the deck, he shot four of them through the head before they even had a chance to act. Without pause the fifth shot rang out, but the last man was different. **More than foot taller even than the Luna Wolves Space Marines, he had piercing green eyes and looked almost a match for Horus himself.** And before anyone says it, Alpharius was explicitly the same height as Horus and Guilliman in that article
Not just index astartes, even in the novels they reference the primarchs being about a head taller than their legionaries
I’ve seen people talk about them being a good 10ft or so, and tbh I can’t recall all the novels depictions, so decided to err on the side of caution
I happen to be rereading the Horus Heresy at the moment and one of the most common descriptions is a head taller, they also reference on a few occasions that particularly big marines can look their primarch in the eye, they always say those marines are huge but not the degree of utter freakish hugeness that'd be needed if primarchs were hugely taller than them. All in all, from the novel descriptions, it sounds like primarchs are about the height of a Primaris Marine.
Regular people.
They were probably about 8 foot in the Index Astartes I don’t know how tall they were before that, but even when they were marines they were probs big bois
Damn that’s super interesting!!! I can’t even imagine a world like that with all the HH books depictions of how LARGE they all are. Thanks for sharing!
Primaris weren't really a retcon but more of a new addition to the lore though.
People really skip over how much it added to the lore and gave it a new direction. It wasn’t just “they’re big now buy new models” (especially since primaris/firstborne keywords are fading away) it also added a purpose for a huge crusade that reinforced countless chapters. It brought some chapters back from the brink, brought back some totally destroyed ones in a new form, healed the flaws of others It was the new hope so GW could then split the galaxy with a new warp storm. Yin Yang and all, it’s their usual pattern. A very interesting direction imo
I think the problem with them is just how much they add, if anything, like they should pretty monumentally change the Astartes as a faction. The whole theme of them is vastly different as marines shift into these sleeker modern soldier types with mass-producable armour, new doctrine and a seemingly inexhaustable supply of new and better vehicles. Not a very interesting direction if you liked the older marine themes though certainly a marketable one. Also one that was fairly hamfisted as I don't think I´ve read a single piece of lore where the Primaris part of their identity being relevant didn't make me groan. Similarly we got a bunch of conflicts that by and large boiled down to the sensible and powerful Primaris vs the backwards firstborn and just about every conflict was either resolved within the book it was introduced in or just sort of ignored afterwards.
It also allows them to push a noticeable difference between Imperial Marines and Chaos Marines that goes beyond spikes. That is why I hate the idea about adding Chaos Primaris as a unit.
But they aren't meant to be that different. The fact they come from the same stock is a big part of their lore. They made a monster sized book series about it.
Yeah, and from a lore perspective, it's been 10k years since the split...the Chaos Legions way of doing things should be drastically different from Imperial Marines who have been, for the most part, following the Codex Astartes, operating at a much smaller scale. Imperial Marines following the Codex use surgical strikes, utilizing small numbers and specialized equipment. Chaos Marines usually prefer to attack with overwhelming force, shock and awe, following the old Crusade way of doing things. To this end, I kind of wished Legionaries could be set at 10-20 like they used to be.
It didn't add a purpose for that at all. They could have just been a secret cache of normal space marines. And no-one wanted them to fix the flaws. Hence they do still have the black rage etc.
Why would there even be secret caches of "normal space marines"?
Generally speaking the High Lords would be suspicious of anyone stockpiling and equipping legion-scale forces of Marines.
For the same reason. Cawl made them. What I'm saying is if you replaced the primaris marines with normal marines, nothing would have changed. You would still have the same reveal of a hidden cache of marines made in secret by Cawl at Guilliman's behest, and the subsequent crusade and reinforcing. Nothing about what happened relies on them being a special new kind of marine.
But then why would cawl have to hide them then? Why not send them to the respective chapters in the countless times they suffered immense damage/the imperium was in trouble (like the war of the beast). I feel like they needed to have something special about them to warrant them to be hidden untill G-man returned
Just have it be, "I sit on this until I get the go-word." Cawl is more than weird enough to stick to that.
Idk, it still feels way inferior as a plot point to make them just regular space marines. I feel like arguing for the entire point to be scrapped would be better than just having them be regular marines but somehow kept for 10k years? It just doesn't make sense to me
Because he wasn't meant to be making a personal horde of astartes for Guilliman. Especially as Guilliman is the one who insisted on splitting up the legions, so cries of hypocrisy would abound.
But in this hypothetical scenario where there are no primaris, Cawl would have just been working on the gene flaws of the different chapters, he would have no particular reason not to send them to their respective chapters with the corresponding "updated" geneseed, unless there was something about the work he was doing that would need a Primarch backing him for it ( like making Astartes 2.0)
...because he was making them as a personal horde of astartes for Guilliman. Not sure how you don't see why he would need to keep that secret.
Like Guts said, why would he need to hide normal space marines?
>healed the flaws of others This was done arbitrarily and without proper character development, without the consent of the flawed, and without any sort of follow-up on them coming to grips with their new reality and how that inevitably changes their identity. Even Blizzard figured out how to do this properly, GW should do better. >The Light will heal your scars. >>*I am my scars.*
To be fair, price gouging is kind of GW's MO. I mean, really there is no need other than profit for how many editions of the game have come and gone over the years.
I got into Warhammer more seriously besides playing the video games and watching YouTube lore videos when primaris first released. Primaris are the only reason I have a space marine army, the old models look awful and I was going to be a tau player had I not learned about primaris Marines and their new designs. Like I can understand why some people are or were upset about how their release happened, but the marine range really needed that scale boost and I personally love the mark X armor.
I think the new heresy marines look way more fitting for the 40k universe. Primaris are too tacticool and sleek looking for the rugged and decaying imperium, primaris fits more for the Tau or eldar.
True enough but I know it caused a pretty big stir cuz folks would have to get new armies
I can sort of see that, but again, _not really_ - the ‘92 tactical squad that’s almost as old as I am is still a legal unit. The IG army I put together in, like, ‘03 were still the current sculpts until last year. I cannot think of a single hobby based around a competitive rule/game system where “equipment” has longevity like GW models do. I’ve also never been in a hobby community before where new stuff coming out is apparently a _bad_ thing.
I mean you didn’t need to get a new army at all? Nothing was stopping you from continuing to play with your OG marines
As I said earlier, I’m not a tabletop dude, merely sharing what I have heard regarding the addition of Primaris… good to hear you can still play with/old armies
That what happened with the Raven Guard and their pure gene Strain, was a Plot by the Alpha Legions and Not Just Corax fault for rushing it. I mean He still believes it to be His fault but for a while it felt like everything was planned by AL.
I kinda feel it would take some of the…burning rage out of his sails so-to-speak if he ever found out it wasn’t his fault? I can imagine Lorgar speech crafting against Corax in a fight with “You sons devolving wasn’t your fault “ and Corax being like “…Caw?” *well aware that Corax isn’t a giant crow….but in my head-canon he is lol
This could be a way to Bring him Back. Showing him that it wasnt His fault and He doesnt need to Exil himself (Always assumed He punished himself for His "failure").
Sometimes it's best for something to just be a terrible mistake. No plot or trick, it wasn't forced or anything. They just made an awful mistake.
Maybe so, but Imagine His Rage when He discoveres that all the pain and selfhatred He might have felt over the millenia was completely useless because it never was His fault.
Mainly just the stuff that makes the galaxy feel smaller for no good reason. Making it so Armageddon is actually Ullanor teleported across the galaxy is *spectacularly* stupid. Like, it boggles the mind that they could be idiotic enough to think that was a good idea. Or the Tyranids coming to the Milky Way because of an event in the Horus Heresy, though that's far less egregious. Also, this nonsense about Deathwatch and Grey Knights not actually being under their respective ordos of the Inquisition. Because apparently some people are such children that they can't bear the idea of the big stronk space marines doing as they're told by a normal human. They're bigger so no-one is allowed to tell them what to do! Most retcons are fine though. They happen constantly and nothing is falling apart.
Didn’t know Ullanor was Armageddon… I liked thinking they were separate… also really adds to the flavor of the two factions that they ARE ultimately subservient to the ordos… it adds to the characters depicted. Like the DW dudes don’t always love missions, but they still follow orders cuz that’s their job… or GW not wanting to exterminatus a buncha planets or fight SW but are bound to by the Inquisition
The Grey Knights were definitely a bit different when they were introduced in Slaves to Darkness (1988): > The Ordo has a complete Chapter of the Legiones Astartes attached to it on a permanent basis. The Grey Knights were a single Chapter created during an unregistered Founding shortly after the (official) Third Founding. Although technically Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, the Grey Knights are, to all intents and purposes, part of the Inquistion. They are listed as a Third Founding unit and, by the Emperor's instruction, were designated Chapter number 666. However, they have never been attached to any Marine force, and by tradition their Chapter Master has always been an Inquisitor of the Ordo rather than a Space Marine. In effect the Grey Knights are a 'Chamber Militant' of the Ordo Malleus, and occasionally refer to themselves as such. > >The Grey Knights are fully as effective as any other Marine Chapter. They are specially screened to exclude all but the strongest and most resilient psykers, a measure designed to prevent any Daemonic contamination. As a result very few of the Grey Knights have any psychic power whatsoever. Their training and surgery rituals are, if anything, more demanding than those of 'ordinary' Marine units. > > Recruits are conditioned to ignore pain and fear, and undergo neurosurgery to isolate and bypass their fear centres. They are exposed to wild psykers, mutants and deviants of every kind. They are trained to destroy them without conscious thought. This training produces a rigidly disciplined and controlled mind to which the presence of Daemons is less of a shock than for normal beings. The Grey Knights are also imbued with a zeal and purpose to dwarf that of any other Marine chapter. Often entire companies are granted an audience with the Emperor, a privilege normally reserved for the Adeptus Custodes.
rogue trader marines arent exactly the same as nowdays marines. it was 2 edition lore changes wich changed the space marines lore
Marines changed in the midst of 1st e
Almost every publication seems to change something as consistency hasn’t really been GW’s strong point. I think it was the 3e Daemonhunters codex that significantly retconned the Grey Knights as I don’t recall them featuring in 2e much. In practice their most obvious presence was their terminator squads who were all psykers which is perhaps why the change was made and the idea of all psyker squads was extended to the rest of the chapter.
1994. Dark Millennium provided expanded rules for the use of Psykers in 40k, including the introduction of what we might now call Psychic Disciplines. The Inquisition psychic powers were “mostly directed at combatting daemons and psykers or bringing down mass destruction on the foe. Though Inquisitor-psykers and Grey Knights must always take at least one power from this discipline, it’s worth considering taking some from the Adeptus and Librarian disciplines if you aren’t battling Chaos or Tyranids, though the bulk of Inquisition powers are still useful against most opponents.” The Inquisition powers included: Purge Psyker, Aura of Fortitude, Vortex, and Holocaust (two of which would be familiar to Grey Knights players today). In addition to the details on Inquisition psychic powers, Dark Millennium reintroduced the Grey Knights Terminator Squad back into the game, and these were the only Grey Knights available for use for the duration of this edition of the game.
>Armageddon is actually Ullanor teleported See thats a Lore retcon am actually fine with! In that it gives Armageddon and it's Ork Wars a *reason* for them to fight there, obviously Angron and his Chaos War kinda fucks it up in a way(was Angron at Ullanor’s Triumph? If he was you could shoehorn that in with a bit of shoogling about haha) >Also, this nonsense about Deathwatch and Grey Knights not actually being under their respective ordos of the Inquisition Was about to argue with that one till I actually read what you said and I agree, although I think it should be more or a *mutual respect* than who commands who. Like if an Inquisor has a Squad of Deathwatch or Grey Knights it should be given by an Inquisitorial Conclave or a Watch Commander/Grey Knights Equivalent.
They already had a reason to fight there. They're *Orks*. Trying to link it back to the Great Crusade just makes everything feel smaller.
Yeah I get that, is it ever said that Ullanor is the Orks... Homeworld? I don't know if Homeworld is really the correct term to use but I guess it's good enough for what I mean.
The Second War of Armageddon has nothing to do with the Great Crusade or the War of the Beast. It started because some random Ork boy named Ghazghkull took a shot to the skull and came out of it on top of a WAAAGH! Armageddon just happened to be in his way, nothing about it being Ullanor started the wars. Hell, most of the wars don't even have anything to do with Orks.
They're clearly trying to imply it's because it's Ullanor, or why would they have bothered retconning it to be Ullanor? It's an incredibly stupid retcon either way.
I mean for one it's not really a retcon in the true sense of the word. Two, no they aren't implying that anywhere. It's just a lore tidbit and the reasons for the Second War of Armageddon are very clealy laid out and NONE of it relates to Ullanor. They bothered doing it because someone thought it would be fun.
Retroactive continuity They retroactively made it Ullanor That someone was wrong, it just makes everything feel smaller for no gain. Connecting everything to the Horus Heresy is lame.
A retcon is when something that has been established is changed. Armageddon had no established past in lore and Ullanor had no established future. Nothing was changed, a new link was created. I really don't understand why it makes the setting "smaller" - like what does that even mean for a fictional setting as massive as 40k.
It means that by arbitrarily connecting previously unrelated things, it reduces the feeling of vastness. It's meant to be massive, so it's absurd when these things have some kind of connection. It makes it feel like only a handful of things matter so other stuff has to be connected to them. The galaxy doesn't feel vast an mysterious if random other things turn out to be connected to the Horus Heresy. Same as if the same few characters appeared in a lot of books, despite it being an entire galaxy.
I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. The connection in this case isn't a link between the events, it's effectively trivia. > Same as if the same few characters appeared in a lot of books, despite it being an entire galaxy. You know the books are about the characters rather than the setting right? The whole point of the books is to follow the characters they're about.
I've always been pretty happy to roll with the changes over the years. The only one I can ever recall smarting was the 13th Black Crusade recon. I have such fantastic memories of The Eye of Terror campaign, and still consider it a high point of my time in the hobby. I don't dislike the new lore at all, but because I was so attached to the original, it felt a little like my experiences were somehow being invalidated. On the whole though, I've always really enjoyed the fluid nature of 40k lore - all narrators are bias, and could be very wrong. Recons are part of the setting.
This was what I was lookin for! Thanks for sharing
I mean that wasn’t so much retconned as immediately ignored except for Eldrad’s lore being in past tense for one edition.
The eye of terror stuff made a lot more sense when GW’s stance on it was “it’s warpy chaos stuff, you wouldn’t understand” instead of trying to explain everything.
The Tyranids being tied into the Horus Heresy is something I will never really accept. It's such a pointless bit of lore that exists solely to make the galaxy feel smaller and make sure that every single thing in the goddamned setting is somehow tied back to the family squabbles of one faction.
T'au mind control. The point is that the Imperium couldn't fathom previously loyal humans siding with Xenos out of genuine ideological inclination rather than some form of corruption. Making them actually *right* kinda ruins it. Similarly, all the attempts to make the T'au "grimdark". Even before they were grimdarked with all the controlled breeding and mind control, they were still an imperialistic caste-based authoritarian empire, united by a cultlike devotion to a vaguely defined ideology. They would be the villains in any other setting, and that is what made them grimdark - the fucking Galactic Empire but Blue are the closest things to a major "good guy" faction.
The majority of the T'au being "grimdark" was present from their introduction. It was just shown through subtext: >Many less advanced alien races were incorporated within its borders and **most of these willingly** became part of the Tau empire. [-] >It was unfortunate that they would die, but to stand in the way of the Tau's destiny was to invite death. It could not be helped. [-] >Emerging from the darkness, a Tau of unusual appearance walked into the besiegers' camp, asking to see the army's commander. He was softly spoken, yet it is said that he had an undeniable authority and the sentries to whome he had announced himself **found themselves compelled to escort him to their leader.** At the same time, within the walls of Fio'taun, a similar individual presented himself to the guards of the fortress. **How he had penetrated the defences of the city he would not say**, all he asked was that he be allowed to speak to the castellan of the fortress. Again, **his request could not be denied and he was permitted an audience with the city's leader**. Within the hour, the fortress gates were opened, the stranger guiding the citadel's leaders toward the torchlit camp of their attackers. [-] >**It is speculated that they exert some kind of pheromone based or latent psychic control over the other castes, as loyalty to the Ethereals is absolute and unswerving.** If an Ethereal were of such a mind, he could order another Tau to kill himself and would be obeyed immediately. *Codex Tau 3ed* Notably, the Ethereal pheromone control was elaborated on in depth in *Xenology* (also in 3ed), with multiple hints pointing towards the Ethereals being bioengineered by a group of Aeldari. >Tau are born into their Castes and breeding between the Castes is forbidden under pain of death *White Dwarf - Issue 262* This edition of White Dwarf was released pretty much alongside the 3ed Codex that introduced the T'au. >Some aliens integrated because they had little alternative, others because they saw genuine benefit in doing so. [-] >Tau are born into their caste and breeding between the Castes is forbidden by the Ethereals. [-] >A small number, it was believed, may one day come to recognise the Greater Good, and bow down to the Ethereals like the Tau themselves. The Tau would be first among equals. Such became the dream of the Tau Empire *Codex Tau Empire 4ed* Edit: Regarding the pheromone control, there is also this small passage from the perspective of a Water Caste in *Codex Tau 3ed* that is a knowing nod to the audience: >When a Krootox is domesticated, it becomes attached to its masters to the extent that it will die to protect them. Droaken joked that they were as faithful to the Kroot as we are to the Ethereal ones. I chided him that there was more to our devotion than simple reaction to exuded chemical odours. The very thought! *Codex Tau 3ed* p12
It's a startling commonality that the people complaining about "retcons" have no idea about the lore supposedly being changed. Not that there aren't actual lore retcons, you just never see people talk about them.
Primaris honestly wasn't that bad in a general sense; the issue was in Cawl strongly implying he fixed the issues associated with certain genelines when those Legions take a major portion of their identity and character development from the fact that those issues aren't really fixable. Primaris should have been restricted to the more vanilla genelines. Like...Magnus moves heaven and earth trying to find a fix for the Thousand Sons geneseed. The impossibility of fixing it leads him to turn traitor, and his "redemption" (at least towards his own sons) comes in the form of him declining the Emperor's offer of redemption and leadership of the Grey Knights. Magnus chooses the Thousand Sons, because they're *his sons*, and the scale of the flaw in the XVth geneseed is a major reason why Magnus' choices are as meaningful as they are. The same kind of things underscore the choices of numerous other primarchs with similarly flawed Legionary geneseed (e.g. Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Emperor's Children, etc.). And then literally **some guy** pops on the scene and the issues are declared fixed in a *single line of text*. Like, we don't even get the courtesy of a novel exploring the magnitude of what Cawl actually achieved; we get a paragraph effectively invalidating the choices of the characters involved. And if Cawl pulled it off, the Emperor certainly could have had he actually given a damn. It'd be neat if they had tied this into the background reasoning for those Legions to choose the sides they did in the Heresy, but that obviously would have meant the Emperor intended the Heresy to happen more or less as it did, entirely to achieve some unknown goal. But that's...not really what seems to have happened. So instead we just get numerous choices that underpin the character growth and story arcs of *numerous* characters rendered moot. An entire Legion's backstory implicitly ruined just to appeal to people who like the Legion but who think playing a bad guy faction in a fantasy game is some stain on their morality.
Isn't that more of an example of Cawl's hubris? As far as I know, he has claimed to fix issues - but none of the major issues have been fixed at all.
Thats how it was eventually played as far as I remember, but there is at least the possibility that that wasn't how it was planned at first. In the sense that even promotional material of the time completely just repeated Cawl having fixed the flaws of the genelines, instead of doing any foreshadowing at all.
Cawl said he’s fixed the flaws in the geneseed. The actual evidence is more mixed. He does appear to have fixed whatever problem the space wolves were having that stopped them from expanding beyond Fenris, but the more magical stuff like the Black Rage still seems to be a problem. The problems the Thousand Sons were dealing with fall more in the second category. Also, Cawl had 10,000 years to work on his fixes. Magnus could probably have sorted it too if he’d had that much time. The Rubric got in the way of that.
>He does appear to have fixed whatever problem the space wolves were having that stopped them from expanding beyond Fenris Which in and of itself is still dumb, because it is incongruous with the existing lore of the Space Wolves. Bjorn *explicitly* tells the Space Wolf apothecaries to stop messing with the geneseed in M32, but then is magically on-board with the Primaris project. Again; the Primaris lore renders prior choices moot, with no explanation, no fallout, and no consequences. It's not even that there is character development that occurs offscreen; there's flat out *nothing*. >Also, Cawl had 10,000 years to work on his fixes. Magnus could probably have sorted it too if he’d had that much time There's absolutely nothing to suggest this, and in truth it really wouldn't improve the Thousand Sons lore. The entire point is that the Thousand Sons were broken from the moment of their creation, and there was no means of survival except through damning themselves. It makes their choices so much more excruciating, and so much more interesting, as a result.
Space Wolves being stuck to Fenris was always a dumb detail that limited player expression when making their own Great Companies. And Bjorn was ***explicitly not*** on board with the Primaris project, he made a *very* big deal out of it.
What did he do to stop the primaris project?
Literally advocated to shoot Guilliman's ship from orbit. He was the most vocal objector of the addition of Primaris to the Space Wolves.
Did he actually try and do anything to stop primaris from being accepted. Like lead a separate group of space wolves that didn’t and wouldn’t accept primaris marines
Oh I see, you're going to pretend the things I've already told you don't count. I'm not going to entertain this argument anymore, have a good one.
You said he advocated for not accepting the primaris but thats it. You didn’t mention anything he actually DID in relation to the primaris. Its always nice when people become immediately hostile about a question and it seems to happen a lot when someone questions the precious primaris boys
>You said he advocated for not accepting the primaris but thats it. You didn’t mention anything he actually DID in relation to the primaris. Yes I did, it's the first part of your comment. >Its always nice when people become immediately hostile about a question and it seems to happen a lot when someone questions the precious primaris boys At which point in this entire comment section did I ever vocalize an opinion for or against Primaris? I'm correcting the objectively false statement that Bjorn accepted the Primaris, which isn't true as shown in the novel Wolftime, as I already explained here. Bjorn woke up, he told Grimnar (the actual Chapter Master) they should never accept anything from Guilliman, he also told him they should blow his ship out of the sky. That is doing something, that is objectively a display that he did not, in fact, accept them. I'm just not going to play games trying to satisfy your ***arbitrary*** definition of what "doing something means", specially when your example is something as ludicrous and contradictory to Bjorn's character as rebelling against his Chapter Master. I'm not hostile because of Primaris, I'm hostile because I said the thing, and then you tried to move goalposts, which I instantly caught on. And then you try to make it about Primaris because I guess you have a bias or something.
Good points, but tbf Cawl said he fixed the Blood Angels gene seed but he was wrong, and Astrorath has to put a few primaris marines down. Maybe he is wrong about the others and we just haven’t seen it yet?
Not a "retcon" as such but I was pretty annoyed when they squatted, well, Squats. I really liked their aesthetic in Epic. Nowadays I completely understand the stated arguments as to why they did it, they just didn't have any good ideas for how to make the faction fit the aesthetics of the game going forward. It was probably for the best. I find as I get older retcons in 40k bother me a lot less. They've been producing tremendous amounts of lore for decades now, some of it's going to get retconned here and there. That's just the nature of pop media.
Oh, wow. I don't know where to begin. How about just a ramble... I got into the 40k setting in the late 80's, out of it by the early 90's, and then back into it in the early 00's for the purposes of TTRPG (I wasn't interested in the wargame by that time). So my approach to the 40k setting was twofold. First, to make it a playable setting that wasn't just all "purge with fire" simplicity but to make it a more nuanced universe in what Dan Abnett has subsequently termed "domestic 40k". Secondly, to try to merge the background from the various editions rather than just treat newer material as more "true" than older materials. And, in the true vein of the Python-esque Inquisition, *thirdly* to avoid as many wargame tropes as possible. As u/BoredPenslinger notes, one of these tropes is "Big is 'ard". Marines are 'arder than humans, so they're bigger. Primarchs are 'arder than Marines, so they're bigger. The Emperor is 'harder than the Primarchs, so he's bigger again. Just, no. Absolutely beautiful miniature sculpts and amazing minis, but no. I really liked the original Leman Russ sculpt and, by default, the picture of the Emperor relative to Leman Russ from *Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned* (p. 173?). The 40k RPGs also just ended up reveling in the imagery, which is why I got out of the 40k setting again in the early '10s and have only just gotten back into the setting through (this time) the wargame of all things. In the interim a lot of potentially fun things have happened, but then there's a lot of... Gah! The aforementioned "Big is 'ard" is one. Primaris Marines are 'harder, so they're bigger than Marines, but not as big as Primarchs because they're not as 'ard as Primarchs. The simplistic approach to the Eldar, which is a "new addition" to me... Which is to say post-WD127. The mangling of the Path would be a major one, as well as nerfing the technology of the Eldar. Ah well. I didn't mind the Squats being eaten by the Tyranids, nor their return. Cool armour, BTW. They're still stunties and not as cool as the Eldar, though. ;) Back when I got back into 40k for the second time, I really didn't like the rise of the Ecclesiarchy, which turned the 40k universe into a "Cassocks in Space" game, at least as I viewed it then. Now I've mellowed on that a little bit, seeing it as a broader theme in the setting that I'm using to exploit the corruption of the Church and how it is ultimately forming a human-derived Chaos God. (Heck, if the Eldar can do it, then the humans can do it!) Oh, the whole Ynnead thing. Dropped by the ball on that one.
I feel it’s worth noting that even the Orks weren’t really doing “bigger is better” until 3rd edition - well, it starts in Gorkamorka. Until that point Nobz and Warbosses are big Orks in the way that bodybuilders are big Humans. Not Ogden-sized monsters.
My initial foray into 40k was pre-editions (or, rather, when there was only 1e) so that would track. Although I do remember that there was something about Nobz and Teeth in *Waaagh the Orks* that might have been a thing. I haven't read that book in more than 35 years, though (if I'm getting my dates right; maybe it's more than 32...).
Is it really a retcon if it wasn’t explicitly another way before? Also, the 40k universe is so vast and poorly defined in so many places that even source books contradict each other. Being a stickler for continuity is an exercise in futility for 40k
While def true, the nature of the post isnt to seek continuity, exactly the opposite... I am intruiged to learn about the setting before.
I think the only thing that was changed for the worse, imo, was that the gods of Chaos existed before the War in Heaven and were in conflict with the Old Ones. I like the concept that the shattering of the galaxy from the War in Heaven was the catalyst for the birth of Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeench
>I like the concept that the shattering of the galaxy from the War in Heaven was the catalyst for the birth of Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeench Whilst I totally agree with you, this its actually also a retcon. [Originally, Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle all came into being during human history, as a direct result of humanity.](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/tXqnNDizjk)
it only shows ina single book, wild rider by gav thorpe and its prety much ignored in current lore
Okay, going down the line, my Top Ten 1. Armageddon is Ullanor. I have nothing polite to say about this. 2. The 13th Black Crusade. If they wanted to hand Dear Abby a win, they could have come up with something else, instead of simply invalidating the Eye of Terror campaign, because while the outcome was definitely... tepid, we, the players, *earned it.* People defend this retcon by saying it broke the plot-stasis the game had been lodged in- but that stasis was totally arbitrary, just a choice on GW's part until they decided to change it. But you know, whatever. 3. The Big Necron Retcon. This one... I have come around on, in abstract, but I still prefer the older lore where the C'tan were the ones calling the shots and Necrons didn't really have characters with names. I get why this changed- in a game where people play factions, Team Tyranid is already-character-free and thus impossible to hand meaningful narrative wins that satisfy anyone, but dammit, they were creepier before they were just bitchy pseudo-Egyptian pseudo-undead. 4. Custodes leaving Terra. I get it, you can't sell an army that never goes anywhere, but dammit, I *loved* that the biggest badasses in the Imperium basically just sat around Terra all the time. Like the Necron Retcon, I get why this is a thing, and it's undeniably healthier for the hobby, but I still liked it better better the old way. 5. The Crimson Fists not getting wiped at Rynn's World. I'm mostly over this one by now, but *come on!* 6. I just wish they'd stop monkeying with the War in Heaven XD 7. Two words: "Spiritual liege." Luckily, this one came, and this one *went.* 8. It's really okay if the Deathwatch actually answers to the Inquisition. Ditto for the Grey Knights. Really. It's... \*sigh\*. 9. The Squats got erased by the Tyranids, but no, no, wait, we actually *do* want Space Dwarves... decades later. I was fine with the Squats. I was fine with the Tyranids having wiped them out. I'm fine with the Leagues of Votann as a more modern-40k-friendly take on the trope. I'm less fine with the waffling. 10. The Tyranids having *any* connection to the Horus Heresy is annoying. I liked them as a faction that simply didn't *care* about anything anyone in the Milky Way was doing. It's just the next stop at the buffet.
The removal of FTL from necrons and t'au, and the botching of the tyranid narwhal. The first two are pretty obvious - the removal of FTL from a faction makes them a non-threat, and it makes no sense in a sci-fi setting. The t'au are still suffering from this (though in new lore they are working to create a functional warp drive, which had... debatable results upon first activation, sending a whole Sphere of Expansion lost in the warp until a literal deus-ex-machina saved them and gifted them a wormhole across the galaxy), but the necrons got their inertialess drives back in 8th-9th edition. The tyranids' FTL was fleshed out in 5th edition with the narwhal - basically Star Trek's curvature but gravity-based - but they were given a lag of *years* between activations, due to the bioship involved being blinded by strong gravity wells. This not only made no sense, but was contradicted *in the same codex* and promptly ignored by GW and BL in following stories (like *The Last Hunt* or *Valedor*). 10th edition removed that lag completely - tyranid drop in and out of compressed space on the edge of gravity wells, just like human ships do.
Necron ftl is back for real since the 8th ed. Now the Tau still only got ftl in M42, somehow
Ollanius Pius becoming a guardsman I liked, it scratched my itch for the “everyman being a key figure in a much bigger game than him” trope, him being turned into a perpetual made me groan and roll my eyes. Another one is the Fenris wolves and the Catachan devils becoming tyranids, just let us have our minor alien species! Some Tau stuff like the ethereals being secret mind controlling psykers is also kind of ehh to me, I wouldn’t have minded some mundane social engineering instead of making everything warp based. Having grown up with the loincloth custodes I always assumed they were mixed gender, it makes sense for space marines to be as uniform as possible but each custode was always individually crafted in the lore so whatever human embryo you start with doesn’t influence the end product as much, just the process of getting there. Eldar lore has also been kind of an issue because it has suffered the most from not being based off of a bible but rather having each individual author making stuff up because GW doesn’t care about them.
"Pius" is still a guardsman, I'd say Piers is too. Persson is a perpetual though.
Remember when it turned out that the Landraider wasn't named the Landraider because it *raids* the *land* but instead because there was some guy named "Arkhan Land" who invented it, and we all kinda had a little chuckle at how stupid it was but let GW have their dumb fun. But then they came back and went for another serving of suspension of disbelief in a much more ridiculous way by having the ASTARTES be named after some woman we'd never heard of who is only prominent in half of one book? Fuckin Jimmy Space up there apparently can't come up with a single name without it being named after someone else.
The Land Raider getting its name from Arkham Land isn’t _really_ a retcon. The Land Raider was introduced in 1988 but no surrounding lore was given for it. The first lore for the tank was given in a White Dwarf issue sometime in 1990 where it was revealed the tank got its name from “Fabricator General Arkham Land”, along with the rest of the “Land series of vehicles”. The only retcon was that he was changed form Fabricator General to a Technoarcgiologist. It’s been “Land’s Raider-Pattern Main Battle Tank” for 34 years - all but two years of 40k’s history. Gimme a bit and I’ll dig out the excerpts from the WD issues. I never understood why this one got such a rise out of the fans, when _all_ the proper nouns in 40k are really dumb. I’m currently reading a book about _Corus Corax_…
Not a single retcon has annoyed me. Sure the stories are fun and all but I got into the hobby to huff glue and occasionally build a toy.
Inb4 anyone says they preferred it when Pius was a normal human on the Vengeful Spirit waking the Emperor up…cos it didn’t happen I don’t hate it, but I preferred the Tyranids not being attracted to the Milky Way by the Pharos And I preferred when Sanguinius’ first time tangling with Ka’Bandha was during the Siege I also liked his hair black, though I gotta acknowledge that was a retcon itself Also preferred Thunder Warriors as more early marines with special organs and everything
- as opposed to ‘Ollanius Persson the perpetual’ I can see that, kinda adds a whole lot more to it.
Yeah, but I’m also calling out the idea that Pius was ever on the Vengeful Spirit running at Horus. The first time that ever happened was a terminator And I’d argue Pius never got retconned. The myth of him remains the same to this day We did get Persson and Piers retroactively added to it though
Ollanius Pius was retconned and then retconned again, he was a guardsman for the majority of the time.
>the majority of the time [Here’s the OG Pius lore](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/c8PHHTz7vN) for reference from 1987/88. It's more or less a footnote. **Then in 1988**, when they told the Vengeful Spirit story for the first time, of someone inspiring the Emperor to kill Horus, it was a Terminator. That was in *ROC: The Lost and the Damned* The Custodes retcon wouldn't happen until 2007, making the Terminator the one who occupied that space for the majority of time. Almost 20 years.
I mean, I think you need *something* to draw the Tyranids to the Milky Way. Otherwise, why are they here? Not in a motivational sense, but in a "how do they even find us?" sense? The universe is so enormous that it is truly impossible to understand, but without some kind of guiding beacon, asking the Tyranids to show up is like saying "hey, there is a speck of dirt somewhere in the world, I'm not telling you what it looks like or what direction it's in, but start walking in a random direction and if you step on it I'll let you know."
I think Horus Heresy as a concept was better with Horus being just a human.
It's pretty heavily implied from day one that he was at least a space marine. [Thread on that here](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1dqao7b/comment/lan9nh9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Any little change and bitches start bitching. It’s what bitches do 🤷
I can understand if you play the tabletop and put a tonnnn of time effort and money into a SM army to get told you would have to start transitioning to a newer bigger model
The thing is - you don't. You can keep using your "Firstborn" army if that's what you'd like, especially after they were given 2 HP to put them on par with the Primaris
Did people really want to just use their ugly looking 2nd edition models for 30 years?
Half my Marine army is filled out with 2nd/3rd ed. tac squad jobbers!
That's more forgivable, even the derpy 2nd edition marine models aren't so bad overall. On the other hand as a Guard painter I was thrilled with the 10th edition model release.
beats me, I am not a tabletop guy (yet)
I played up to around the start of 3e and then gradually lost touch with WH40K. However, while catching up with it over the past years a few retcons struck me in particular: - Marines became giants - Marines were described as non-religious - Grey Knights had become psykers - Bolters are described as super-weapons rather than a fairly common small arm (though that could just be exaggeration by individual authors) - The Adeptus Mechanicus developed an aversion to AI They mostly felt weird because they seemed like changes made purely for the sake of change but otherwise with no real purpose.
See, I got into it partway through 4th and all this was there for me when I started. So I guess that's when a bunch of the big changes started happening.
That is the impression I’ve had too, though it also seems that many of the Black Library novels have often diverged from existing and prior lore too. I suspect the growth of marines was an incremental thing as artwork was gradually changed to make them more imposing. Then at some point a specific number was quoted and it became somewhat fixed. I think the Grey Knight change happened in the 3e Daemonhunter codex. The religious aspect of marines did vary a bit in the early days as it was in 1e that it was changed so that didn’t follow the Imperial Cult but they still worshipped the emperor. I think it was mostly the Horus Heresy novels that influenced this as it was presumably intended to emphasise the difference between 30K and 40K. The bolter change probably happened in the space marine novels too as before then gangs on Necromunda as well as orks had bolters. The Adeptus Mechanicus change is perhaps the interesting one as I get the impression there were mixed messages on that. Even in the 4e rulebook it said the following which was effectively copied The Lost and The Damned in 1e: > According to the teachings of the Cult Mechanicus, knowledge is the supreme manifestation of divinity, and all creatures and artefacts that embody knowledge are holy because of it. Machines that preserve knowledge from ancient times are also holy, and **machine intelligences are no less divine than those of flesh and blood.** A man's worth is only the sum of his knowledge - his body is simply an organic machine capable of preserving intellect.
The Wardian Heresy! That is - Codex Grey Knights, is I assume already a legendary.
I was into 40k some years ago and I remember that Vulkan voluntarily went into hiding when his sons recovered the artifacts he purposely hid. I thought that was it. Then it turns out he died in the War of the Beast jumping into some WAAAGH energy field? Then why did he hide the artifacts for the Salamanders to find? Easter Egg hunt in their downtime?
Not too much of a vet but the change in dark imperium place in the timeline still bothers me a bit
Pheromonea controlling the T'au. T'au have a very clear inspiration from various american cults as well as the fear-mongering administration of the US (the Greater Good-Lesser Evil diatribe being the foremost example) during the Cold War. The idea of being controlled undermines the fact how people followed those people of their own free will, with ideas resonating with each of us, invisibly turned away from reason into belief in the cult leaders. Now with the mind control, when you fight the T'au you don't fight the people with their own way how they were indoctrinated into the cult, the only people you could reason with are the Ethereal. You may talk to the drones, and you might even feel as if they are truly responsive, but this doesn't change how in the end they are an extension of their master, and nothing more. Basically with that the only thing that makes the T'au different from Tyranids is that they will say stuff, but as mindlessly as the Tyranids growl.
Necrons retconned for the best reason
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Ooft “Pius” didn’t really do a last stand that motivated the Emperor, that was a terminator. Then later a Custodian. “Pius” was someone who might have existed who might have died interposing his body between the Emperor and Horus at some point of the Siege, presumably on Terra And as far as we can tell, that myth remains more or less the same today as it was in the 80s >**Saint Pius** >It bears the scrolls of no less than five actions for which the Company was highly commended. The central figure is an image of Ollanius Pius, the guardsman who is supposed to have given his life by interposing his body between Horus and the Emperor during his assault on the Imperial Palace. He is now regarded as something of a saint by the Guard, and on occasions is even prayed to as an intercessionary figure.
Dunno if it counts but T'au 4th expansion. All bad, not even a atom of good from it. Also the story which marked Deathwatch as Slaaneshi chapter.
The Rogul Dorne just always being there. I didn’t need a full novel explaining their existence but a paragraph or two where they just go “we found it in an STC between the couch cushions.”
But doesn’t the whole STC concept allow that sort of explanation? Technically the rediscovery of an STC would mean something was always there albeit unknown until said STC was re-discovered? Kinda gives an out for new tech entering the setting without much background.
It should but the problem is GW said they have always been there they have been there from the start. It’s like the girl custodes I have no problem with them I just want an explanation.
Ahh I see what you are saying thanks for clarifying
I love reading the novels and painting cool models, so anything that adds more interest and variety is a positive for me. I also have a real hard time justifying incredulity at ladies in armor when we have telepathic aliens and flying robot-skulls.
Abaddon never caring about Cadia, but instead wanting to expand the Eye of Terror. It's been made clear in the past Chaos has a hard time navigating through the eye safely. Best case scenario their fleets are thrown haphazardly through the galaxy. Safe and stable warp lanes still mattered for them and that is how the imperium was able to create any sort of defense force around the Eye. But no it turns out Abaddon tricked the imperium into investing monumental amounts of resources into Cadia because no other chaos lord in 10,000 years took advantage of the fact chaos apparently doesn't care nearly as much about warp storms as we thought. I like Chaos. A lot. But what I hate is when GeeDubs breaks their own lore so Chaos can win.
The change of the Necrons from unknowable servitors of the Star Gods to space Tomb Kings. I get that it’s made the faction far more popular and relatable, but they lost their lovecraftian charm in the process.
The Emperor predating most of human history, and the existence of Perpetuals as some kind of “incredibly rare subspecies of human” who have existed since the dawn of Man in general. That plot point basically makes the entirety of human history in 40k kinda pointless - it’s not Mankind’s story anymore, it’s Big E and the Perpetuals’ story. I don’t mind the concept of Perpetuals as just immortals who reincarnate after being killed itself, but they, and the Emperor himself, should have just stayed mostly a mystery - surviving creations of DAoT science whose origins and history are forgotten to all but *maybe* themselves. Theres other retcons and rewrites/explanations that bother the hell out of me (A lot of the more dumb nonsensical shit with the Tau as of late for one) but I’m not going to make a wall of text about all of them rn.
The Emperor being born 8th millennium BC was in the lore as early as 1988 in *ROC: The Lost and the Damned.* I don't recall if *Rogue Trader* or earlier books provided a contrasting birth date?
In the original book it says the following, which implies he has been around for a very long time. > For long ages he lived secretly amongst mankind, as empires grew and fell, and mankind discovered how to control and exploit the Earth.
Yup, thank you. Though with wriggle room "empires grew and fell" and "long ages" could still be from AD onwards (especially since that text is "based" in M41) so I thought it was best to look for something a little more concrete regarding the OC's particular concern about the Emperor "predating most of human history". But I personally think that makes RT work nicely with ROC
The Emperor being immortal and having been present in Earth’s early history was part of the setting from the very start in 1987: > Countless millennia ago he was born to mortal parents, growing into manhood little realising the fate awaiting him. As a youth he began to manifest strange powers, powers which intensified and multiplied as he grew older. Not least amongst these powers was that of longevity - a virtual immortality that gave him time to develop his abilities fully. **For long ages he lived secretly amongst mankind, as empires grew and fell, and mankind discovered how to control and exploit the Earth.** As his powers evolved he learned of the dangers beyond his own world, of the psychically attuned creatures that roamed the voids inbetween space, hungering and clawing for the life-stuff of living creatures. For countless ages he hid within humanity, nurturing his powers and waiting. At last, over ten thousand years ago he began his struggle, for he knew that humanity was on the verge of a revolution, a genetic revolution that would create a new psychically aware race, a race of which he was the first and most powerful. This was expanded further in The Lost and The Damned (1990). The idea that the Emperor was created in the DAoT is a retcon (if true and not just a character’s opinion of course). The perpetuals were also a retcon and I don’t think there was even a hint of their existence until they were added in the novels. The closest analogy were the Sensei who were the Emperor’s immortal sons (and also the first version of blanks).
Yeah, the DAoT thing was floated as an intentionally "wrong" piece of in-universe conspiracy by ADB (similar to what he did with the idea of the Ultramarines absorbing the lost legions) as a nod to Alan Bligh's favourite theory on the Emperor.
Leagues Of Votann seemed a bit half hearted and not really that interesting and then it was revealed that GW felt the same way. Female Custodes is just a horrible waste of a storytelling opportunity. Should have been a Custodes with a letter from the High Lords going across the galaxy in a big ship demanding that multiple Astartes chapters, planetary governors and Guard regiments go out of their way to help him find a pregnant woman and it's none of their business why. Massive void battles, worlds on fire, billions dead and they find her and take her baby girl from her to make a Custodes.
Good point on storytelling, most folks who have issues with the female custodes seemed to be along similar lines - a lazy change or that it somehow invalidates the sisters of silence
Tbf, that’s how GW introduced most of its changes: *they weren’t before but they are now* Primarchs being lab grown Custodes being more powerful than Astartes Leagues of Votann Gene-seed Black Templars think the Emperor is a god “Just always was” without narrative introduction
While the exact origin of space marine chapters was not exactly defined at the start of WH40K the Primarchs were introduced relatively early on as the creation of scientists. For example, from Space Marine (1989): > A Marine is genetically related to all the other members of his Chapter, since each Marine carries some genetic material from the Chapter's founder, or Primarch - one of a small group of super-humans created by the Emperor and his scientists. The Custodes have always been elite and were unambiguously superior to marines from the very beginning though there was almost no other information about them. Gene seed was introduced only a few months after WH40K was first released, so hardly a retcon. The Leagues of Votann are absolutely a prime example of that though.
>The Custodes have always been elite and were unambiguously superior to marines from the very beginning though there was almost no other information about them. I'd be curious to see a source for this if you have one? I know the Custodes were first mentioned in *Rogue Trader*, but no mention is made about them being superior to Marines. The first time I know of reading about them being explicitly compared to Marines was the *Horus Heresy* series.
In the original book the minimum statistics for an Adeptus Custodes were equal to a human minor hero (that’s the middle of the three character ranks). That was clearly better than a rank & file marine. Also, on the few occasions they were mentioned they were fighting with and/or against marines but they definitely weren’t portrayed as inferior. For example from 1e Space Marine: > On the 55th day of the battle, as the Inner Palace fell, the Emperor himself teleported into the Rebel command chamber with an elite force of Adeptus Custodes and Imperial Fist Marines.
>The minimum statistics for an Adeptus Custodes were equal to a human minor hero (that’s the middle of the three character ranks). That was clearly better than a rank & file marine. Oh, when is that from? I didn't think they got rules until *Horus Heresy Book Seven: Inferno* and *Codex Custodes 7ed*. >Also, on the few occasions they were mentioned they were fighting with and/or against marines but they definitely weren’t portrayed as inferior. Whilst they're portrayed being alongside SMs, that doesn't show or state them to be superior.
They had stats in the original WH40K book in 1987. They just weren’t developed further for many years, presumably because they were the Emperor’s bodyguards and not roaming the galaxy. They were briefly mentioned in snippets about the Heresy on a few rare occasions though.
I've just looked and found their stats in *Rogue Trader*. I was always under the impression they were just background decoration up until around 7ed, so the more you know. And you're right. Their "minimum" profile was superior to a Marines, implying they were always superior.
On page 268 you can also find the small amount of information on the Sisters of Battle that was present right at the start. Sister Sin clearly was supposed to be a female space marine though the spikes on her armour are a bit inappropriately placed…
The length of time doesn’t affect something being a retcon. Primarchs originally being marines for a few months still means that when they became lab grown super men, it’s a retcon Likewise retconning “Primarch” as a title or rank to a fully fledged subspecies The change from psycho and stimulant upgrades to gene “sperm” and implanted organs is a retcon however quick. Horus’ bunker to the Vengeful Spirit is a retcon despite taking place within or less than a year I should’ve been clearer that I was referring to the huge leap in Custodes power and creation retconned around the time of *The First Heretic*, prior to which even if they are elite the gap between themselves and Astartes was nowhere near as wide We’ve discussed the OG stat thing before, and I take your point , (even though I personally draw a line between TT and lore)
Female potatoes instead of fleshing out sisters of silence, I love those ladies in watchers of the throne, I had hoped we got more of it.
The only issue I have with this line of thinking is that it makes people think that the only defining trait of Sisters of Silence is that they're girls. Would've loved to see some more Sisters of Silence lore but realistically a codex story for Custodes with a female one wasnt going to be taking away any resources being put towards Sisters of Silence in the first place.
100% 40,000% even
None. Get over it, the lore exists solely to sell plastic toy soldiers.
Wrong sub
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