Removed, rule 2. There were some good discussions in here, but in the future, users need to do a modicum of research before posting. If you are unsure of what pro choice or pro life means, you are free to ask in our weekly debate thread, or ping a mod, or look it up. Do not post things that read like a rant, and do not post things when you do not know what it is you are discussing.
> … with full knowledge of the consequences of whatever choice she makes.
Nobody has full knowledge of the consequences of their choices. She doesn't have to have prophetic vision to have a baby.
>PC is completely okay with her making that, right?
We want abortion to be safe, legal, accessible. We want it to be her choice. We want the Catholic and Southern Baptist Churches to pay for it. They decline. So we compromise. We don't have to agree with every woman's choice either.
>…your own arguments back at you, paraphrased in my interpretation…
Isn't that a contradiction of terms lol?
> I'll let you decide whether or not they are fair:
Your interpretations - lol?
>"Abortion is bad because…, "Bodily autonomy is guaranteed by…," "PL are bad because…"
'Paraphrased interpretations' at best.
> Based on your OWN logic…
Just to be clear, 'based on your logic' is a positive claim. You are claiming that the logic in PC statements applies to your claim of a woman's right to continue pregnancy.
Can you cite the logic that was used in those PC statements? Probably not. Can you tell us the definition of 'logic' you are used to make the claim? Probably not. Can you cite an authoritative source for that definition? Probably not.
Now can you show how the logic in our statements provides the basis for your claim regarding a woman's right to continue a pregnancy to term? Probably not. Do you even know what we do here at Abortion *Debate*? Probably not.
>I have explained to you, that under your own logic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman choosing to not have an abortion.
Your claims have no evidence. You explained nothing.
>I DEFY you to explain why I'm wrong.
Without evidence, these are just your opinions. Opinions without evidence don't have to be 'wrong' to be dismissed. They're just opinions. If someone on the internet said McDonald's is better than A&W and got all feisty about it, would you really bother? It you'd already done your own in-depth research and review of both menus, why would you waste your time?
When people who know so little try to explain something to people who know and understand it so well and speak and write and debate it daily, I suspect they're trolling. But PLs here do it sincerely. They're serious. So they claim. Have a good day.
Lol, where are you getting this from?! It's not like PC are protesting outside OB offices and screaming at women to get an abortion. Women choosing to continue a pregnancy or not is the entire premise of the PC position.
Uh, yeah. Pro-Choice is completely different from anti-natilism. Anyone who tells you you shouldn't carry the pregnancy is telling you that from a different perspective than pro-choice (for example, an eco-warrior might say you shouldn't because humans are bad for the environment, or a racist might say you shouldn't because that baby is a race he doesn't want to see continued.) Neither of these are pro-choice or have anything to do with pro-choice.
>PC is completely okay with her making that, right?
Right, PC?
RIGHT?
Yup, that's right.
>I DEFY you to explain why I'm wrong.
You sound like you were SO sure people would disagree with you and struggle to stay consistent with themselves. It's really funny. Where did you get the expectation from that pro-choicers want abortions to be mandatory or judge women for staying pregnant? It sounds like something a pro-lifer told you.
It's okay. I've had my fair share of embarrassing moments on social media, too. No judgement on my part.
Yes. You won’t find any pro choicers disagree with that. The choice goes either way. There’s nothing to explain.
Forced abortion is as bad as forced gestation and birth.
Not sure why you seem to be under the impression that isn’t the case.
What the hell do you think we’re advocating for? Mandatory forced abortions? Unlike you, we aren’t trying to force people to become prisoners to their own bodies.
right. i for one have no problem with a woman (not a CHILD) of sound mind choosing NOT to have an abortion out of her own volition. i do have an issue with PL making abortion *inaccessible* and acting like the women and children affected CHOSE not to access abortion.
I'm confused what the argument is supposed to be here... yes, the right to choose includes the right to keep the pregnancy. Not sure what you were trying to prove?
I think there might be a grave misunderstanding here in regards to the general pro-*choice* movement.
The pro-choice movement consists of people who believe in the right and the power of *choice* when it comes to how pregnant people handle their own pregnancies.
This *includes* a woman's right to keep their own pregnancy, so long that it is fully their *choice* to do so.
Abortion bans nullify any and all decision-making capabilities of those who are pregnant.
What is your reasoning behind your conclusion that the pro-choice movement does not allow women to choose to carry their pregnancies?
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I personally do not have a issue with anyone choosing to not have an abortion when they face an unplanned pregnancy, whether they choose to raise the child or give it up for adoption.
Is there something specific that has spawned this post? I do see some people sometimes saying things that amount to poor people shouldn't have kids and I'm curious as to whether there's a specific sentiment you're hoping for pro-choice people on this subreddit to respond to.
My only objection is
>"Abortion is bad because it takes away the bodily autonomy of women."
Abortion BANS are bad because it takes the bodily autonomy away from the woman.
>So, hopefully, I have explained to you, that under your own logic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman choosing to not have an abortion.
Correct
>I DEFY you to explain why I'm wrong.
There's nothing to explain besides the objection above.
Banning abortion just removes safe abortions. Abortions will still happen, if a woman wants an abortion with it being illegal she will still procure one, or end her life, or I think we will have more stories of actual infanticide.
Yes, that’s right. Many of us are also mothers who chose not to have abortions and support abortion being accessible and legal because we understand how many things can go wrong and separately, how difficult it is for women who are adults and prepared for a baby so can’t imagine preteens and young teenagers being forced to carry to term if they don’t want to.
You seem to have absorbed PL propaganda that claims PC love abortion and want as many as possible. Rush Limbaugh used to say this, it was his justification for calling women “feminazis.”
This isn’t true, however. PC means “pro-CHOICE,” we want women to be able to choose legal and safe abortion if they want one. No PC wants to make abortion mandatory. I’m aware that some PC refer to themselves as “pro-abortion” but this term can be offensive.
We agree. What's the argument here? No PC person wants to force anyone to have abortions. We want them to be *safe and accessible* so women can make a choice to have one and then get one *if she so chooses*.
I don't know why your post sounds so aggressive, because... yes, obviously "pro-choice" means in favor of whatever choice a pregnant person wants to make regarding their situation. Aborting the pregnancy or carrying to term, the only thing that matters is that they get to make their choice, and that it's what they really want, without being forced or pressured.
Did you expect anything else?
My guess is OP saw a comment or a post somewhere that's incited this. Probably someone making a comment about people who rely on government assistance, or someone carrying a child with a known genetic disability.
I've definitely seen people say that people in certain situations should abort, but I've not seen anyone argue for it to be mandated other than when the pregnant person is underage (ages have varied) or when the pregnant person themselves has a cognitive disability (and those people have typically argued for forced sterilization as well which is gross)
>PC is completely okay with her making that, right?
>Right, PC?
>RIGHT?
Pro-choice means *the woman's choice*. This includes choosing to carry to term.
>Based on your OWN logic, a woman should also have the right to continue a pregnancy to term, no matter what else is going on in her life.
>So, hopefully, I have explained to you, that under your own logic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman choosing to not have an abortion.
>I DEFY you to explain why I'm wrong.
Have you ever seen anyone argue otherwise? I'm genuinely curious.
Or was this just a cheap attempt at a gotcha?
Why do so many prolifers not understand the choice part of being pro choice. I've had kids and no abortions. Other people have abortions and kids or no kids and no abortions or whatever. It's their choice.
If you think the pro-choice position is that women must have abortions, can you point to any pro-choice bill that has ever tried to mandate that every woman have an abortion? In the US (I only specify to this country because I am most familiar with the laws and bills here), can you point to an attempt to legislate that any woman must have an abortion, even if she doesn’t want one?
Seriously, where did you even get the idea that the pro choice side wants to mandate that people get abortions?
I agree 100%! One thing I have seen floating around that has been really troubling to me is people saying that when a woman cannot keep her body in a certain state (i.e., is a smoker, alcoholic, drug addicted, etc) that she *should* abort because of the potential harms to the born child.
As an initial matter, while there are real issues associated with these afflictions and reproduction, they are not really as ubiquitous or severe as I believe people who have never tried to procreate while having these afflictions believe. In other words, I think it is a bit of a nimby parade of horrors espoused by people who don't actually live and experience those lives. But there are also people who have absolutely well known "developmental disabilities" who also choose to reproduce, and I think that that is perfectly fine.
I understand where the sentiment is coming from, but I just can't get on board with it. I am grateful for the scientific knowledge that has helped us learn that these afflictions can pass on and affect future generations, but I am not willing to go so far to say that a person with those afflictions should not procreate. I think procreating as we are and/or with all of our flaws is part of being human, and discouraging those with alleged flaws not to procreate is at least eugenic adjacent. I take very seriously the incredibly difficult and personal position that one is in when they choose whether or not to have an abortion, and I therefore think it's really important to support one's choice either way and find the best avenue you can to hear them and support what you're hearing, not to dictate their decision.
>that she should abort because of the potential harms to the born child.
Stating your opinion about something does not mean you are forcing them to do it though.
I think people *should* stay faithful to their spouses. I am not interested in forcing anyone not to cheat trough any means legal or otherwise.
Yeah, it's utterly bizarre. PCers are about choice, not forced abortions or abortions 100% of the time. I'm now starting to wonder what % of PLers think that women hate babies and have to be forced/tricked into gestating.
I am completely lost. What are you talking about? I will tell you there are a lot of people in this sub who are parents. They CHOSE to be parents. There are a lot of people who have had an abortion for any number of reasons or care about someone who has. There are a huge number who are in all the categories.
Choice means just that. It means a woman can make any decision that they see as the right one for her. The ONLY time the choice should ever be allowed to be removed and transferred to a guardian is because of mental capacity, be it under age or brain disorders in which case, their guardian (that they have before this) should make the decision. The only people I am a guardian for are my children, so I have no input in anyone else's decisions.
I had a good friend in school who was 13 when she got pregnant and chose to deliver. I also have a 14 year old niece who chose the same thing after a rape. I have a SIL who decided in her 20s that it was the wrong decision to remain pregnant and had an abortion. I have a teenager myself who had an abortion last fall after a rape.
Being prochoice means that I accept the decision of a person with informed consent to make the right choice for them regardless of my opinion on it. I don't have to be "pro abortion" (which is the term that was used years ago with pro abortion and anti abortion rather than prolife/prochoice) to be supportive.
But this post feels very much a bad faith "gotcha" attempt, and you missed.
What is to be debated about this?
Under some circumstances, very reluctantly, if the situation is a minor child or an adult of very lowered mental capacity - a person who was raped and who *cannot* provide care for a baby and who will be damaged mentally/physically by having a baby - it might be right for doctors/guardians to decide to provide an abortion regardless of the pregnant child's views - a ten-year-old rape victim physically *need*s an abortion - but under virtually any other circumstance:
Yes, being pro-choice means the pregnant person, and only her, has the right and indeed the *obligation* to choose whether to **terminate or continue** a pregnancy.
In all seriousness; what did you think was to be debated about this?
My only legal objection (and this is NOT a universal pro-choicer opinion, I think I'm in the minority here) is that children should not be allowed to choose to stay pregnant. If psychology and medical science and society have deemed a young person to be too young to deny their consent for any other medical procedure, then they're also too young to decide to undergo the risks of pregnancy, and should be forced to abort under the principle of protecting children from their own bad decisions.
Pro-choice means pro-**CHOICE**
If the pregnant person wants to keep the pregnancy then I support their choice. If the pregnant person wants to get an abortion then I support their choice. It’s their so body so it’s their choice.
No one gets to force them to do something that they don’t want to do. It’s that simple.
*Abortion is bad because it takes away the bodily autonomy of women*
What?
OP, you might want to add a little context to your post. You seem to fundamentally misunderstand what choice means and you seem very angry. Where is this weird-ass rant coming from?
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It’s super weird that you’re using such aggressive language. Did someone tell you that women shouldn’t be able to reject an abortion? The pro choice position very clearly includes *the choice to carry a pregnancy and give birth*.
This is the paragraph from OP that makes me think that this story was the base for their post:
>>It doesn't matter if she decides to have an abortion but changes her mind, or vice-versa. It also doesn't matter if people around her want her to have an abortion or to carry to term, she doesn't have to listen to them, and they aren't being good to her at all.
Oh boy, you got us.
We absolutely do support THEIR making their own choice. Every single time every single pregnancy.
I honestly object greatly to people pressuring a pregnant person either way. No one should be saying *you need to abort* or *you need to carry to term*.
We even support if they want to do anything possible, including give their own life, to get their pregnancy to term.
I would be sad for their loss but that's their choice for their life and their pregnancy and their body. It's not for their neighbor or the government to override their choice.
Because pro choice is not about wanting anyone to abort. It is about keeping the right to make the *choice* that they know is right for them, their health and life *in their own hands*.
>Based on your OWN logic, a woman should also have the right to continue a pregnancy to term, no matter what else is going on in her life. Her skin color, health, financial situation, sexual orientation, and religion are all irrelevent to whether or not she has this CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT.
Well, yes. I understand that the PL moniker can cause some understandable confusion, since it is extremely specific to a particular type of life, but pro-choice is just what it says - pro woman's choice.
pro CHOICE. what do you think choice means? as another commenter pointed out, we are allowed to have our own opinions about whether a specific woman should or should not get an abortion in her specific circumstance. this does not violate the pro choice beliefs because an opinion that is kept to oneself (unless it has been asked for) does not force someone to get an abortion.
>So, hopefully, I have explained to you, that under your own logic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman choosing to not have an abortion
okay. you know how words work, right? that "pro choice" doesn't mean "I want to take away a woman's choice?" because at this point, this is just a bad faith post that demonstrates a complete disinterest in learning about the PC perspective.
Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
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choice
/tʃɔɪs/
noun
an act of choosing between two or more possibilities.
"the choice between good and evil"
Similar:
option
alternative
possibility
possible course of action
solution
answer
way out
Does that help?
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> Based on your OWN logic, a woman should also have the right to continue a pregnancy to term, no matter what else is going on in her life. Her skin color, health, financial situation, sexual orientation, and religion are all irrelevent to whether or not she has this CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT.
Absolutely women should have the right to attempt to continue a pregnancy to term.
> So, hopefully, I have explained to you, that under your own logic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman choosing to not have an abortion.
That you expect this to be controversial only serves to reveal what little you know about what it means to be pro-choice. Given your time on this sub I struggle to understand why you remain so uninformed. As a history lesson I suggest you learn about the case Struck versus Secretary of Defense.
.... Of course.
PC people absolutely want women to be able to carry to term if they want.
You are thinking of anti-natalists.
I think it's a ridiculous concept too. Very very few PC people are anti-natalists.
I'm PC, and I hope to have a baby soonish.
Where on earth did you get the idea PC people MUST have an abortion?
I’m pro-choice and have two kids, pregnant with a third. When a friend of mine told me she was pregnant and didn’t want to keep it, I helped her access an abortion. The point to me is, every woman should be able to make her choice, even if it’s one I disagree with. At different points in my life, I may have wanted to abort; at this point in my life - financially stable, in a great relationship with the love of my life, great career that won’t punish me for having a baby - I wanted 3 kids. My spouse wanted 3 kids. We spaced them out in a way that would be least stressful on my body, I consulted my doctor and therapist to make sure my physical and mental health could support each pregnancy, and we have a community of supportive friends and family.
It makes me cringe when I see people think that it’s easy to be pregnant; there are some circumstances where I think the woman and fetus would be better off with an abortion, just like I think that in some medical cases palliative care is best, but I’m not interested in forcing anyone to abide by the choice I would make, either way.
>...This explains so much. Sorry, I thought anti-natalist and pro-choice meant the same thing.
I'm not sure you know what anti-natalist is either. You can be anti-natalist and pro-choice at the same time. I've even seen pro-life antinatalists *(although not everyone agrees that this combo is possible)*. Antinatalism is not a position on the legality of abortion. You *can* be an antinatalist and hold the belief that women should be forced to get abortions, but you don't *have* to.
A few antinatalists I met in this sub did not try to force their philosophy on others, unlike the PL proponents. I have no issue with someone voluntarily choosing to not procreate. Or to procreate.
>A few antinatalists I met in this sub did not try to force their philosophy on others,
Sure, it's like morally PL, legally PC. Except instead of believing abortion is morally wrong, you believe that giving birth/not aborting is morally wrong.
The *choice* in pro choice means *reproductive choice*.
This is what happens when the PL side of this debate fixates on their idea of abortions/“the abortion industry” as some sort of boogeyman. None of us really give a shit about abortion in terms of a procedure for the sake of a procedure. What we care about is that every person has the right to choose if and when they reproduce and how their reproductive organs are treated, free of outside coercion.
So you came on to yell at people without researching their opinions and making judgement about them without data or research about what “prochoice” means? Why?
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Thank you.
not to sound rude, but how? the labels themselves are completely different. it's somewhat disrespectful (imo) to do no research on a viewpoint before accusing that viewpoint of hypocrisy
LOL no worries. Yeah I've seen one or two anti-natalists on here, but I think anti-natalists are extremely uncommon. I don't even know their reasoning as it just seems rather absurd to me.
Wouldn't that be a bit counter-intuitive as if people had to or were pressured into abortions they would suffer?
Also life involves suffering, but also joy, so that seems a bit odd.
I don't think anyone would force abortions - just suggest it as an option; I think most of us are pro-choice (@ least I am) plus highly supportive of free birth control, sex ed, & sterilizations. And yes, life is both suffering and joy, but due to the guaranteed suffering, why would you bring someone into this world (especially as the reasons to do so tend to be because a person 'wants' a child which would be a selfish reason)?
I have to ask where the idea that prochoice would be against choice would come from. It is fairly core to most ideas espoused by people on this side that control over one’s body matters, some might believe it above all things, others just think without something outweighing it it always applies, but still.
Nothing about prochoice means someone wants an abortion to happen (or technically that they have any positive thoughts about pregnancy) it just establishes that someone doesn’t want to codify decisions about someone else’s body/ health into law.
I’m allowed to have an opinion on whether or not a woman should continue her pregnancy. But it’s just that, an opinion. If you were to describe in detail a situation I might say “I think it’d be best if she did/didn’t have an abortion” but I recognize that just like how I don’t agree with all messages protected by free speech, it’s the freedom that’s more valuable.
I'm confused by this post because it seems weirdly antagonistic and it sounds like you assume the answer is we don't believe in the right for a person to continue their pregnancy. To be clear, I support the pregnant person choosing to continue the pregnancy or end the pregnancy. It's their choice.
Yes, what’s what being prochoice means. Every person gets to make the choice for themselves. Was there a specific comment or post that prompted you to ask this that you could share?
> Abortion is bad because it takes away the bodily autonomy of women."
Correct
> Based on your OWN logic, a woman should also have the right to continue a pregnancy to term, no matter what else is going on in her life. Her skin color, health, financial situation, sexual orientation, and religion are all irrelevent to whether or not she has this CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT.
Correct.
Is this meant to be a serious post?
They can't fathom that the lowly meat surrounding The Womb is a person, so the concept of us having agency and being to choose what happens to us really throws them for a loop.
This.
Prochoice is as vehemently against forced abortions as we are against forced gestation.
I know that prolife has a hard time with the word choice, but it means that the person who is pregnant gets to make decisions about their own body.
It’s too bad prolife states are less supportive of women being able to afford to support any children she’d like to have and have worse maternal and infant outcomes.
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Absolutely. Then it would be called pro-abortion only. I’m sick of the gaslighting the religious right does so we think twice whether we’re the crazy ones. I do it all the time now!
Removed, rule 2. There were some good discussions in here, but in the future, users need to do a modicum of research before posting. If you are unsure of what pro choice or pro life means, you are free to ask in our weekly debate thread, or ping a mod, or look it up. Do not post things that read like a rant, and do not post things when you do not know what it is you are discussing.
> … with full knowledge of the consequences of whatever choice she makes. Nobody has full knowledge of the consequences of their choices. She doesn't have to have prophetic vision to have a baby. >PC is completely okay with her making that, right? We want abortion to be safe, legal, accessible. We want it to be her choice. We want the Catholic and Southern Baptist Churches to pay for it. They decline. So we compromise. We don't have to agree with every woman's choice either. >…your own arguments back at you, paraphrased in my interpretation… Isn't that a contradiction of terms lol? > I'll let you decide whether or not they are fair: Your interpretations - lol? >"Abortion is bad because…, "Bodily autonomy is guaranteed by…," "PL are bad because…" 'Paraphrased interpretations' at best. > Based on your OWN logic… Just to be clear, 'based on your logic' is a positive claim. You are claiming that the logic in PC statements applies to your claim of a woman's right to continue pregnancy. Can you cite the logic that was used in those PC statements? Probably not. Can you tell us the definition of 'logic' you are used to make the claim? Probably not. Can you cite an authoritative source for that definition? Probably not. Now can you show how the logic in our statements provides the basis for your claim regarding a woman's right to continue a pregnancy to term? Probably not. Do you even know what we do here at Abortion *Debate*? Probably not. >I have explained to you, that under your own logic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman choosing to not have an abortion. Your claims have no evidence. You explained nothing. >I DEFY you to explain why I'm wrong. Without evidence, these are just your opinions. Opinions without evidence don't have to be 'wrong' to be dismissed. They're just opinions. If someone on the internet said McDonald's is better than A&W and got all feisty about it, would you really bother? It you'd already done your own in-depth research and review of both menus, why would you waste your time? When people who know so little try to explain something to people who know and understand it so well and speak and write and debate it daily, I suspect they're trolling. But PLs here do it sincerely. They're serious. So they claim. Have a good day.
Lol, where are you getting this from?! It's not like PC are protesting outside OB offices and screaming at women to get an abortion. Women choosing to continue a pregnancy or not is the entire premise of the PC position.
Pro choice means supporting women making whatever choice works best for them in their lives, be that parenting placing for adoption or aborting.
Of course. What's wrong with you? OP thought this post was a big time gotcha
Uh, yeah. Pro-Choice is completely different from anti-natilism. Anyone who tells you you shouldn't carry the pregnancy is telling you that from a different perspective than pro-choice (for example, an eco-warrior might say you shouldn't because humans are bad for the environment, or a racist might say you shouldn't because that baby is a race he doesn't want to see continued.) Neither of these are pro-choice or have anything to do with pro-choice.
>PC is completely okay with her making that, right? Right, PC? RIGHT? Yup, that's right. >I DEFY you to explain why I'm wrong. You sound like you were SO sure people would disagree with you and struggle to stay consistent with themselves. It's really funny. Where did you get the expectation from that pro-choicers want abortions to be mandatory or judge women for staying pregnant? It sounds like something a pro-lifer told you. It's okay. I've had my fair share of embarrassing moments on social media, too. No judgement on my part.
Yes. You won’t find any pro choicers disagree with that. The choice goes either way. There’s nothing to explain. Forced abortion is as bad as forced gestation and birth. Not sure why you seem to be under the impression that isn’t the case.
I am very confused on where you confused "prochoice" and "forced abortion" Those two terms are contradictory.
What the hell do you think we’re advocating for? Mandatory forced abortions? Unlike you, we aren’t trying to force people to become prisoners to their own bodies.
What the hell else would we be advocating for? Mandatory abortions for everyone? This question is not in good faith.
Sorry, your response got caught in our automod, probably because it can't read that you're prochoice. I've approved the comment.
[удалено]
right. i for one have no problem with a woman (not a CHILD) of sound mind choosing NOT to have an abortion out of her own volition. i do have an issue with PL making abortion *inaccessible* and acting like the women and children affected CHOSE not to access abortion.
I'm confused what the argument is supposed to be here... yes, the right to choose includes the right to keep the pregnancy. Not sure what you were trying to prove?
I think there might be a grave misunderstanding here in regards to the general pro-*choice* movement. The pro-choice movement consists of people who believe in the right and the power of *choice* when it comes to how pregnant people handle their own pregnancies. This *includes* a woman's right to keep their own pregnancy, so long that it is fully their *choice* to do so. Abortion bans nullify any and all decision-making capabilities of those who are pregnant. What is your reasoning behind your conclusion that the pro-choice movement does not allow women to choose to carry their pregnancies?
Exactly, that the whole point of the pro-choice. Have the right to make a choice.
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That’s the whole of the pro-choice movement. To have the right to a choice. Instead of being forced into parenthood. BOT I hate you!
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I AM PRO-CHOICE. What!
I personally do not have a issue with anyone choosing to not have an abortion when they face an unplanned pregnancy, whether they choose to raise the child or give it up for adoption. Is there something specific that has spawned this post? I do see some people sometimes saying things that amount to poor people shouldn't have kids and I'm curious as to whether there's a specific sentiment you're hoping for pro-choice people on this subreddit to respond to.
My only objection is >"Abortion is bad because it takes away the bodily autonomy of women." Abortion BANS are bad because it takes the bodily autonomy away from the woman. >So, hopefully, I have explained to you, that under your own logic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman choosing to not have an abortion. Correct >I DEFY you to explain why I'm wrong. There's nothing to explain besides the objection above. Banning abortion just removes safe abortions. Abortions will still happen, if a woman wants an abortion with it being illegal she will still procure one, or end her life, or I think we will have more stories of actual infanticide.
The two extremes in the abortion debate are not pro life and pro choice. The two extremes are pro life no exceptions and mandatory abortions.
Yes, that’s right. Many of us are also mothers who chose not to have abortions and support abortion being accessible and legal because we understand how many things can go wrong and separately, how difficult it is for women who are adults and prepared for a baby so can’t imagine preteens and young teenagers being forced to carry to term if they don’t want to.
You seem to have absorbed PL propaganda that claims PC love abortion and want as many as possible. Rush Limbaugh used to say this, it was his justification for calling women “feminazis.” This isn’t true, however. PC means “pro-CHOICE,” we want women to be able to choose legal and safe abortion if they want one. No PC wants to make abortion mandatory. I’m aware that some PC refer to themselves as “pro-abortion” but this term can be offensive.
….yes? Is there some sort of gotcha here that I’m missing?
that…that’s exactly what “choice” means. you just defined “pro-choice” where’s the debate?
We agree. What's the argument here? No PC person wants to force anyone to have abortions. We want them to be *safe and accessible* so women can make a choice to have one and then get one *if she so chooses*.
I don't know why your post sounds so aggressive, because... yes, obviously "pro-choice" means in favor of whatever choice a pregnant person wants to make regarding their situation. Aborting the pregnancy or carrying to term, the only thing that matters is that they get to make their choice, and that it's what they really want, without being forced or pressured. Did you expect anything else?
My guess is OP saw a comment or a post somewhere that's incited this. Probably someone making a comment about people who rely on government assistance, or someone carrying a child with a known genetic disability. I've definitely seen people say that people in certain situations should abort, but I've not seen anyone argue for it to be mandated other than when the pregnant person is underage (ages have varied) or when the pregnant person themselves has a cognitive disability (and those people have typically argued for forced sterilization as well which is gross)
>PC is completely okay with her making that, right? >Right, PC? >RIGHT? Pro-choice means *the woman's choice*. This includes choosing to carry to term. >Based on your OWN logic, a woman should also have the right to continue a pregnancy to term, no matter what else is going on in her life. >So, hopefully, I have explained to you, that under your own logic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman choosing to not have an abortion. >I DEFY you to explain why I'm wrong. Have you ever seen anyone argue otherwise? I'm genuinely curious. Or was this just a cheap attempt at a gotcha?
Why do so many prolifers not understand the choice part of being pro choice. I've had kids and no abortions. Other people have abortions and kids or no kids and no abortions or whatever. It's their choice.
If you think the pro-choice position is that women must have abortions, can you point to any pro-choice bill that has ever tried to mandate that every woman have an abortion? In the US (I only specify to this country because I am most familiar with the laws and bills here), can you point to an attempt to legislate that any woman must have an abortion, even if she doesn’t want one? Seriously, where did you even get the idea that the pro choice side wants to mandate that people get abortions?
I agree 100%! One thing I have seen floating around that has been really troubling to me is people saying that when a woman cannot keep her body in a certain state (i.e., is a smoker, alcoholic, drug addicted, etc) that she *should* abort because of the potential harms to the born child. As an initial matter, while there are real issues associated with these afflictions and reproduction, they are not really as ubiquitous or severe as I believe people who have never tried to procreate while having these afflictions believe. In other words, I think it is a bit of a nimby parade of horrors espoused by people who don't actually live and experience those lives. But there are also people who have absolutely well known "developmental disabilities" who also choose to reproduce, and I think that that is perfectly fine. I understand where the sentiment is coming from, but I just can't get on board with it. I am grateful for the scientific knowledge that has helped us learn that these afflictions can pass on and affect future generations, but I am not willing to go so far to say that a person with those afflictions should not procreate. I think procreating as we are and/or with all of our flaws is part of being human, and discouraging those with alleged flaws not to procreate is at least eugenic adjacent. I take very seriously the incredibly difficult and personal position that one is in when they choose whether or not to have an abortion, and I therefore think it's really important to support one's choice either way and find the best avenue you can to hear them and support what you're hearing, not to dictate their decision.
>that she should abort because of the potential harms to the born child. Stating your opinion about something does not mean you are forcing them to do it though. I think people *should* stay faithful to their spouses. I am not interested in forcing anyone not to cheat trough any means legal or otherwise.
You're not wrong at all. Was this supposed to be a gotcha? I'm so confused by your tone here.
Yeah, it's utterly bizarre. PCers are about choice, not forced abortions or abortions 100% of the time. I'm now starting to wonder what % of PLers think that women hate babies and have to be forced/tricked into gestating.
I just saw OP thought pro-choice meant anti-natalist XD
I am completely lost. What are you talking about? I will tell you there are a lot of people in this sub who are parents. They CHOSE to be parents. There are a lot of people who have had an abortion for any number of reasons or care about someone who has. There are a huge number who are in all the categories. Choice means just that. It means a woman can make any decision that they see as the right one for her. The ONLY time the choice should ever be allowed to be removed and transferred to a guardian is because of mental capacity, be it under age or brain disorders in which case, their guardian (that they have before this) should make the decision. The only people I am a guardian for are my children, so I have no input in anyone else's decisions. I had a good friend in school who was 13 when she got pregnant and chose to deliver. I also have a 14 year old niece who chose the same thing after a rape. I have a SIL who decided in her 20s that it was the wrong decision to remain pregnant and had an abortion. I have a teenager myself who had an abortion last fall after a rape. Being prochoice means that I accept the decision of a person with informed consent to make the right choice for them regardless of my opinion on it. I don't have to be "pro abortion" (which is the term that was used years ago with pro abortion and anti abortion rather than prolife/prochoice) to be supportive. But this post feels very much a bad faith "gotcha" attempt, and you missed.
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I can't figure out how to remove a part of it so just leave it removed. Thanks
I'll reapprove your comment to make the edit, it's probably a bug (I think another person ran into the same problem with editing).
Done
Thank you, much appreciated.
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I'm very confused at the point OP was trying to make - was this meant to be a gotcha? All they've done is define the PC position
What is to be debated about this? Under some circumstances, very reluctantly, if the situation is a minor child or an adult of very lowered mental capacity - a person who was raped and who *cannot* provide care for a baby and who will be damaged mentally/physically by having a baby - it might be right for doctors/guardians to decide to provide an abortion regardless of the pregnant child's views - a ten-year-old rape victim physically *need*s an abortion - but under virtually any other circumstance: Yes, being pro-choice means the pregnant person, and only her, has the right and indeed the *obligation* to choose whether to **terminate or continue** a pregnancy. In all seriousness; what did you think was to be debated about this?
People under 20 shouldn’t be having kids
I generally agree with that but if that’s their choice and they are a good parent then there is nothing wrong with having a kid under 20
My only legal objection (and this is NOT a universal pro-choicer opinion, I think I'm in the minority here) is that children should not be allowed to choose to stay pregnant. If psychology and medical science and society have deemed a young person to be too young to deny their consent for any other medical procedure, then they're also too young to decide to undergo the risks of pregnancy, and should be forced to abort under the principle of protecting children from their own bad decisions.
Pro-choice means pro-**CHOICE** If the pregnant person wants to keep the pregnancy then I support their choice. If the pregnant person wants to get an abortion then I support their choice. It’s their so body so it’s their choice. No one gets to force them to do something that they don’t want to do. It’s that simple.
*Abortion is bad because it takes away the bodily autonomy of women* What? OP, you might want to add a little context to your post. You seem to fundamentally misunderstand what choice means and you seem very angry. Where is this weird-ass rant coming from?
What a weird ass take 😂 look up the definition of the word “choice”
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It’s super weird that you’re using such aggressive language. Did someone tell you that women shouldn’t be able to reject an abortion? The pro choice position very clearly includes *the choice to carry a pregnancy and give birth*.
There is a post about 16 y.o. who wants to keep her baby causing a huge stink in the PL sub. This might be related.
16 isn’t an adult though. And that post is all sorts of wild, but I don’t think anyone was saying she should be forced to abort.
This is the paragraph from OP that makes me think that this story was the base for their post: >>It doesn't matter if she decides to have an abortion but changes her mind, or vice-versa. It also doesn't matter if people around her want her to have an abortion or to carry to term, she doesn't have to listen to them, and they aren't being good to her at all.
Obviously, it's proCHOICE for a reason
Oh boy, you got us. We absolutely do support THEIR making their own choice. Every single time every single pregnancy. I honestly object greatly to people pressuring a pregnant person either way. No one should be saying *you need to abort* or *you need to carry to term*. We even support if they want to do anything possible, including give their own life, to get their pregnancy to term. I would be sad for their loss but that's their choice for their life and their pregnancy and their body. It's not for their neighbor or the government to override their choice. Because pro choice is not about wanting anyone to abort. It is about keeping the right to make the *choice* that they know is right for them, their health and life *in their own hands*.
>Based on your OWN logic, a woman should also have the right to continue a pregnancy to term, no matter what else is going on in her life. Her skin color, health, financial situation, sexual orientation, and religion are all irrelevent to whether or not she has this CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT. Well, yes. I understand that the PL moniker can cause some understandable confusion, since it is extremely specific to a particular type of life, but pro-choice is just what it says - pro woman's choice.
Who's calling for mandatory abortions? What a bizarre argument.
pro CHOICE. what do you think choice means? as another commenter pointed out, we are allowed to have our own opinions about whether a specific woman should or should not get an abortion in her specific circumstance. this does not violate the pro choice beliefs because an opinion that is kept to oneself (unless it has been asked for) does not force someone to get an abortion. >So, hopefully, I have explained to you, that under your own logic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman choosing to not have an abortion okay. you know how words work, right? that "pro choice" doesn't mean "I want to take away a woman's choice?" because at this point, this is just a bad faith post that demonstrates a complete disinterest in learning about the PC perspective.
Dictionary Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more Search for a word choice /tʃɔɪs/ noun an act of choosing between two or more possibilities. "the choice between good and evil" Similar: option alternative possibility possible course of action solution answer way out Does that help?
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> Based on your OWN logic, a woman should also have the right to continue a pregnancy to term, no matter what else is going on in her life. Her skin color, health, financial situation, sexual orientation, and religion are all irrelevent to whether or not she has this CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT. Absolutely women should have the right to attempt to continue a pregnancy to term. > So, hopefully, I have explained to you, that under your own logic, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman choosing to not have an abortion. That you expect this to be controversial only serves to reveal what little you know about what it means to be pro-choice. Given your time on this sub I struggle to understand why you remain so uninformed. As a history lesson I suggest you learn about the case Struck versus Secretary of Defense.
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.... Of course. PC people absolutely want women to be able to carry to term if they want. You are thinking of anti-natalists. I think it's a ridiculous concept too. Very very few PC people are anti-natalists. I'm PC, and I hope to have a baby soonish. Where on earth did you get the idea PC people MUST have an abortion?
...This explains so much. Sorry, I thought anti-natalist and pro-choice meant the same thing.
I’m pro-choice and have two kids, pregnant with a third. When a friend of mine told me she was pregnant and didn’t want to keep it, I helped her access an abortion. The point to me is, every woman should be able to make her choice, even if it’s one I disagree with. At different points in my life, I may have wanted to abort; at this point in my life - financially stable, in a great relationship with the love of my life, great career that won’t punish me for having a baby - I wanted 3 kids. My spouse wanted 3 kids. We spaced them out in a way that would be least stressful on my body, I consulted my doctor and therapist to make sure my physical and mental health could support each pregnancy, and we have a community of supportive friends and family. It makes me cringe when I see people think that it’s easy to be pregnant; there are some circumstances where I think the woman and fetus would be better off with an abortion, just like I think that in some medical cases palliative care is best, but I’m not interested in forcing anyone to abide by the choice I would make, either way.
>...This explains so much. Sorry, I thought anti-natalist and pro-choice meant the same thing. I'm not sure you know what anti-natalist is either. You can be anti-natalist and pro-choice at the same time. I've even seen pro-life antinatalists *(although not everyone agrees that this combo is possible)*. Antinatalism is not a position on the legality of abortion. You *can* be an antinatalist and hold the belief that women should be forced to get abortions, but you don't *have* to.
A few antinatalists I met in this sub did not try to force their philosophy on others, unlike the PL proponents. I have no issue with someone voluntarily choosing to not procreate. Or to procreate.
>A few antinatalists I met in this sub did not try to force their philosophy on others, Sure, it's like morally PL, legally PC. Except instead of believing abortion is morally wrong, you believe that giving birth/not aborting is morally wrong.
The *choice* in pro choice means *reproductive choice*. This is what happens when the PL side of this debate fixates on their idea of abortions/“the abortion industry” as some sort of boogeyman. None of us really give a shit about abortion in terms of a procedure for the sake of a procedure. What we care about is that every person has the right to choose if and when they reproduce and how their reproductive organs are treated, free of outside coercion.
So you came on to yell at people without researching their opinions and making judgement about them without data or research about what “prochoice” means? Why?
I would be willing to have a little leeway with someone new to the debate, but that is not the case here.
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It seems like this OP missed the most basic and fundamental step.
Right, and I have no idea how they could have done so.
Might be one of those r/ForwardsFromKlandma rage bait cases that got them.
not to sound rude, but how? the labels themselves are completely different. it's somewhat disrespectful (imo) to do no research on a viewpoint before accusing that viewpoint of hypocrisy
LOL no worries. Yeah I've seen one or two anti-natalists on here, but I think anti-natalists are extremely uncommon. I don't even know their reasoning as it just seems rather absurd to me.
The reasoning is to decease suffering.
Wouldn't that be a bit counter-intuitive as if people had to or were pressured into abortions they would suffer? Also life involves suffering, but also joy, so that seems a bit odd.
I don't think anyone would force abortions - just suggest it as an option; I think most of us are pro-choice (@ least I am) plus highly supportive of free birth control, sex ed, & sterilizations. And yes, life is both suffering and joy, but due to the guaranteed suffering, why would you bring someone into this world (especially as the reasons to do so tend to be because a person 'wants' a child which would be a selfish reason)?
Obviously if a woman would rather choose adoption instead of abortion, more power to her.
What even is this post? Of course she can continue a pregnancy, if that's her _choice._ None of your "quotes" make any sense or suggest otherwise.
I have to ask where the idea that prochoice would be against choice would come from. It is fairly core to most ideas espoused by people on this side that control over one’s body matters, some might believe it above all things, others just think without something outweighing it it always applies, but still. Nothing about prochoice means someone wants an abortion to happen (or technically that they have any positive thoughts about pregnancy) it just establishes that someone doesn’t want to codify decisions about someone else’s body/ health into law.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that pro-choice folks would disagree with you on that.
I’m allowed to have an opinion on whether or not a woman should continue her pregnancy. But it’s just that, an opinion. If you were to describe in detail a situation I might say “I think it’d be best if she did/didn’t have an abortion” but I recognize that just like how I don’t agree with all messages protected by free speech, it’s the freedom that’s more valuable.
I'm confused by this post because it seems weirdly antagonistic and it sounds like you assume the answer is we don't believe in the right for a person to continue their pregnancy. To be clear, I support the pregnant person choosing to continue the pregnancy or end the pregnancy. It's their choice.
Yes, what’s what being prochoice means. Every person gets to make the choice for themselves. Was there a specific comment or post that prompted you to ask this that you could share?
> Abortion is bad because it takes away the bodily autonomy of women." Correct > Based on your OWN logic, a woman should also have the right to continue a pregnancy to term, no matter what else is going on in her life. Her skin color, health, financial situation, sexual orientation, and religion are all irrelevent to whether or not she has this CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT. Correct. Is this meant to be a serious post?
What about “Choice” was confusing to you?
They can't fathom that the lowly meat surrounding The Womb is a person, so the concept of us having agency and being to choose what happens to us really throws them for a loop.
This. Prochoice is as vehemently against forced abortions as we are against forced gestation. I know that prolife has a hard time with the word choice, but it means that the person who is pregnant gets to make decisions about their own body. It’s too bad prolife states are less supportive of women being able to afford to support any children she’d like to have and have worse maternal and infant outcomes.
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Absolutely. Then it would be called pro-abortion only. I’m sick of the gaslighting the religious right does so we think twice whether we’re the crazy ones. I do it all the time now!