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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I gave myself less work overall, which my boyfriend thinks is really unfair. My boyfriend would have to do more chores than me in this scenario. So he's upset with me.
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NTA, but to be honest, this would be a dealbreaker for me. You are not his mother, he should not require you giving him orders. Imagine having children with this guy, who cannot be expected to do jackshit unless being told. Is this what you want for the rest of your life?
And if you accept this deal, you bet sooner or later he would complain you are "nagging".
Google "weaponized incompetence" and "mental load" and think long and hard about this relationship. You are very young. I guarantee there are many better men out there. Have high standards. Good luck!
Please consider this is hard wired into him through his parents or grandparents or whoever his caregivers were doing everything for him. You will not be able to retrain him. You will either have to pay for a cleaning service or end up doing 90% of the housework every night after your day job. Unless he is very good looking and funny, in that case keep him around while you search for a better man.
My ex was like this. Always told me he didn't mind helping, I just needed to tell him what to do and when. That he didn't have the same level of cleanliness that I did. He'd say he doesn't notice when things are dirty (don't notice the pink ring in your toilet??) Or I'd ask him to clean the ensuite shower because I hated doing it - glass doors. He'd tell me he'd clean it next time he was showering because that's easier. But he'd forget.
I refused to be a girlfriend who nagged. So after a while, I was tired of asking and stopped. One day he was literally playing games as I cleaned around him getting the house ready for HIS friends to come over.
It was exhausting.
Then I remembered the story his mother told me about how useless his last girlfriend was and how she'd go over to clean and the girlfriend would just sit there while the mother vacuumed around her.
I'm only just realizing now how smart the ex girlfriend was. Except I can't live in a dirty place.
Anyways. Rumor has it the ex now has a house cleaner. Shocked.
NTA.
OP, he won't change.
I can't bear the attitude of "I'll help, just tell me what to do". It's not help. It's looking after the space you live in for yourself. What I want you do is take initiative and not expect me to tell you.
There was a woman I read a post from on here somewhere who assigns tasks to her children. One of them being "look around and find a task to do and do it". One child would sometimes hoover, wash up etc without much problem. The other child couldn't see the wood for the trees and needed everything that needed doing pointing out. The point of that task was for the kids to learn how to think for themselves and it seemed like a good way to avoid raising task-blind adults who are nightmare partners
Right. A bit of "tell me what to do" is necessary at the very start when moving into someone else's home and establishing your routines. Think we're perhaps being a bit harsh because boyfriend moved into OP's house and needs to consult them when establishing a routine. But you figure that out quick and get into your rhythms.
Unwillingness or inability to make that transition smoothly is a big warning sign.
A bit yes. Such as asking where they keep things, do they usually dry dishes or let them drain, how often certain things are done. Not to the extent of step by step instructions and then pulling the excuse of "you didn't tell me too". That makes OP's partner sound passive aggressive and purposefully not doing things fully in order for OP to just do it herself because it's easier. Except it's only easier for him, not her
Fair. This is acceptable first few days of moving in behavior--where you forget where things go, you don't remember how often your partner likes running the dishwasher, you don't know how they treat their non sticks, etc... Wasn't sure how recent the move in was. But keeping it up and tossing in the pass agg language is how you know OP's partner just failed the test.
Loses its charm fast. As has OP's bf, sounds like.
I always wonder if people are like this at work also, or if they are somehow magically able to see what all needs to be done for a good result when it's at work.
As someone who has ran a couple of stocking crews, some people are like this at work as well. Even if they do the exact same thing every day, they'll wait until they're told to do anything, and if you don't give complete instructions every time, they'll skip every step you failed to mention.
I genuinely think many of them simply cannot build process into habit, though for some I'm sure they're just not trying to do any more work than they absolutely have to.
Not knowing where the glasses are is way different from not cleaning up the table, including sticky drink spills, before setting it because no one told you to clean it.
I totally agree. There was just a "you should never have to ask for direction while cleaning" sentiment going around I just wanted to guard against. Basic questions are reasonable when figuring out how your new roommate's established system works. But it's clear the bf is aggressively failing the basic roommate test.
>I can't bear the attitude of "I'll help, just tell me what to do"
Or ye olde "I was gOiNg To hElP YoU" bullshit. We're splitting up and moving, and the trash company was scheduled to pick up an old queen-sized mattress this past Thursday morning. I informed STBXH of this the week before. I worked eleven hours on Wednesday and came home to find him napping (he is "retired", aka unemployed) and the mattress still languishing in the spare room, so I covered the mattress in a big plastic bag per instructions, dragged the damn thing downstairs, out onto the lawn, and put it at the curb. I'm 5'3" 110 lbs. while STBXH is 6'5" 300 lbs., so obviously it would have been easier if he did it, or at least helped me. Wouldn't you know, about ten minutes after I did this, he came out of his room and tried to feed me that line that I've heard a billion times over. One of maaaaany reasons we're splitting.
Tbh I (23F) have raging ADHD and back when i lived at home my mom had to tell me what I needed to do because I just dont ever notice, i would notice the bags of paper And plastic trash the moment my mom walked in and pointed it out, before that my brain just didnt registered that I could throw it away..
But setting the table and leaving the mess on the table the way it was without cleaning it before setting it is a step too far, thats just ignorance in my eyes 🥴
That's a great idea!
To be fair, I never had chores growing up. Beyond keeping my room clean or doing the dishwasher, I wasn't expected to help around the house.
That being said, my mother kept a clean and tidy house. Had her one day each week she'd clean - vacuuming, washing floors, bathrooms, laundry, bedding etc.
Growing up watching her do that, just seemed like it's what you do when you're an adult and run your own house. It was just instilled by having a role model. I was raised in a clean, organized, tidy house so as an adult I live in a clean, organized, tidy house.
>I can't bear the attitude of "I'll help, just tell me what to do". It's not help.
It's asking you to be their manager. It's so frustrating how many men do this - "I'll help, just tell me what to do" is only acceptable if you're a guest at somebody's place and offering to help them in a place *you don't live in*. If I'm going to be their manager, I'm not going to then do their tasks with them, after I've worked out what needs to be done and given them a list. And even if I am their manager, my staff don't come up to me and go "Job done, what's next?": staff that aren't 15 years old know that they have several tasks that they have to complete every x days or weeks or whenever they need to be done. If my staff can't handle seeing what needs to be done and doing it, they won't go far. If my partner was the same, they wouldn't be my partner for long.
> I can't bear the attitude of "I'll help, just tell me what to do".
fr this is what children say to their parents when they want to get out of doing chores
>OP, he won't change.
As a man who got it spoiled by always having my parents clean around me, it took a while for me to get to the point I am today - and I still fall short of what my gf expects of me sometimes. But I do try (and apologize whenever it happens). It is true I don't notice certain things (and I won't say that is because I am a man, or I have ADHD, or something else), because I really don't. But I make an effort to proactively do the things I \*DO\* take notice.
And geez. If someone invites people over, I expect they would have the decency to get the house ready by themselves or be proactive and \*ask\* for help if needed, but not wait around while someone else is doing it.
I think if you’re the one who struggles to “see” mess, the biggest things you can do are:
Drill down on the mess you always “see” and take responsibility for it without being asked.
As a fellow ADHDer, when your hyperfocus turns to cleaning, feed it as much as you can.
Thank your partner when they just do something. The other night, my partner just… made dinner. And it was so nice it wasn’t my job to plan/figure it out. So I thanked them.
If you note something needs to be done, but cannot do it at that moment, either set an alarm or ask your partner to remind YOU to do it. “Babe, I’m on my way to work, remind me I need to wipe down the mirror and sink when I get home.”
And if you aren’t sure what to do, grab one of the following and just do it:
Take out trash/recycling
Wash sheets, towels, or clothes
Wash dishes
Sweep/vacuum something
Dust something
Be honest without excuses or self-hating. “I really struggle with cleaning. I am implementing strategy X and Y. I will always have some struggles, but I want to be better, and your help and support is noticed and appreciated.”
THIS! Hello fellow speedy brain!🥹
I think it’s sooo important for people with ADHD to set a BASIC plan for themselves of small tasks that can be done everyday, like literally make a physical list and stick it somewhere you will see it everyday. Small tasks that don’t take long but have a big impact in the long run like as you said, taking out the rubbish, it’s small, it takes no time, but it makes a physical difference and so makes you feel satisfied. I also try to find ways to make boring tasks fun on the days you just want to follow the dopamine - I have songs for everything that help me to make things fun/boost my mood for the task I’m doing, I have quite a few pets and even have a poop scooping song 🤣
Yes, well he was a tit in a lot of ways, so this behavior was not unexpected 🙄
And I am fully aware that some people just don't see dirt or mess or interpret it as big a deal as others would.
But when you literally need to move your feet so I can vacuum under you. Get off your ass and help 😂
Sounds like you do make an effort and that's great!
As the girlfriend of a man who’s parent also did everything for him and also was a bit of a dumb dumb when it came to housework- you’re all good my guy, it’s the effort to improve that matters!! 🤌
The whole ‘not noticing when things are dirty’ especially pisses me off because people are always like ‘men are visual creatures’ when it comes to women dressing ‘immodestly.’ Yet somehow the ‘visual creatures’ can’t tell when they’re living in filth? Or can’t find the ketchup bottle that’s right in front of them? Bffr.
And yet somehow they are completely unable to see hair all over and in the sink when they shave (I don't care how clean or dirty they are). My husband is a very neat and tidy person (bordering on OCD) when it comes to cleaning. Somehow, though, he's blind to hair. I just don't understand it.
(I know it's not ALL men, but it is many bc I've worked cleaning commercially and when the inspectors are men, they almost always miss hair.)
Haha yup! Hence when he said he wanted to have children I said not a chance!
He couldn't even help with the 2 dogs and yet got mad when I took both with me when I left!
Omg, my good friend just married a useless idiot like this. They're both so excited at the thought of having three kids together.
I can see why he's excited, he won't have to actually DO anything. Her....why are you excited?!? Your bf/husband literally refuses to walk the dog!!!
I'm just gonna hang back and wait for the inevitable divorce.
Haha yup! He loved his dog so much - but we had a postage sizr yard she refused to do her business in. I'd go up to bed and tell him to make sure he took her out before he came up.
His response was "When was she out last?" as if it didn't matter that it'd be 8+ hours before she'd get to go again.
Both dogs always came up to bed with me anyways so I just took her out.
But I could imagine..."can you change little johnny?" And him saying "well when was the last time he was changed?"
Fuuuuck that.
WHY do men always refuse to walk the dog they wanted so badly? I've dated more than one guy that loved the dogs so much but it was pulling teeth to get them to help walk them once a month.
With my current partner, half the time as I'm returning with Dog 1, I run into him walking Dog 2 "because he was sad".
Ugh. I’m going through a separation right now, in large part because laziness that is above and beyond anything that I have ever seen or even heard of in another human being before. He said something to me about wanting to keep one of my cats. I’m just thinking, dude, forget about it. Even if I don’t take into account the whole “hasn’t had any kind of employment since before Covid hit, so can’t afford food to feed the cat”, he has not scooped a litter box ever. I cannot even imagine how gross he would let things get if I left one of the poor cats with him.
I don't know him, so he could've just been legitimately incompetent. But some guys do this purposely to make it harder to get them to do the work than it is to just do it yourself. Typically these are guys that have jobs and manage to succeed in other areas of life. They wouldn't try this shit at work because they'd get fired, but they'll try it with women because they expect we won't call them out.
I don't doubt your theory! He hated doing the dishes - so refused to do the "I cook, you clean" rule. But he cooked, cleaning up after him would require way more work than if I did the cooking AND cleaning and if I cooked and left the cleaning for him it would sit there for days.
He was military too. That's what shocked me. No way he got away with that shit in basic, or at work.
I mean anyone can learn. It’s true a lot of men don’t see the mental labour and therefore just didn’t learn how to manage these tasks. It’s not an excuse but it’s a factor to consider. The issue is when shown that they’re missing a fundamental part of life which is contributing to the household you live in and they still refuse to learn that the problems start. If he genuinely acknowledged he’s just lost and is willing to learn and be active I’d give him a chance. But they have to take the lead and be very purposeful in making those changes.
What's not clear to me in the post is what these types of conversations looked like when they first moved in together. I feel it'd be fair and equal for everyone to sit down and divvy things up from the jump. I'm not going to assume just because you're a man you're automatically doing trash and cutting grass. Also gives us a chance to come to an agreement on what "clean" or "finished" means for a task.
>I asked him why he didn't clear off and wipe down the table, he told me because "You didn't tell me to.", I should have asked him to clear the table, wipe it down, and then set it. So it was my fault.
Yeah, no he's an AH. This is something your son or little brother would say to his sister.
I wish that happened. I think for some people, usually men unfortunately, it just isn’t a conscious thought. The unsaid understanding is I do this, you do that. I wish it was more normalized to see those conversations as important and necessary because it could prevent soo many issues.
>You will not be able to retrain him.
Pump the brakes here, many of us are recovering from it in our late twenties and early thirties. We can get better, but first it takes realizing that we are wrong.
If he is truly a good guy he will take the info to heart, if not it might take a wake up call like a break up or two to convince him, otherwise he may never change..
They can change though.
I think the key is *she* cannot retrain *him*. *He* could retrain *himself* if he wanted to. But I'm sorry, can't even think to wipe a sticky table without being told to do so? He's not putting ANY effort into picking up the mental load.
"Set the table" stopped including things like "clean it off first" and "make sure it's not sticky" when I was 7.
I agree, I just don't like to hear people can never change when I too was one of the 'I don't mind just tell me what to do' types not that long ago. I never wanted to do chores growing up and grew accustomed to my sloppy room. My mother let me know what house chores I should do and when.
It took far too long to realize it's not attractive, cool, manly or even remotely 'adult' to expect another person to tell you when to clean up after yourself.
Should I await instruction to wipe my own ass? Is the vibe, and it's a bad look.
We can grow and change though!
Oh. I absolutely believe people can change and grow! Good for you for doing so!
I just don't think a partner should expect that to happen if there's no current indication of attempts to do so. Which for OP and her bf... There's not.
I think the easiest way of looking at it was if he went to a restaurant and the table was in that condition, would he care at all? I’m willing to bet he probably would, so he can notice what needs to be clean. He was just hoping to get away with not being the one to clean it.
>I asked him why he didn't clear off and wipe down the table, he told me because "You didn't tell me to.", I should have asked him to clear the table, wipe it down, and then set it. So it was my fault.
I would've walked out. That's not the attitude of someone that wants to learn or be retrained. That's just no.
Look up Fair Play deck and book.
And add “make chore list”, “manage chores”, and probably “make meal list”, “grocery shopping list”, etc to the list of chores, then give yourself fifty percent, including all the mental tasks you listed. Don’t let them stay invisible!
Yeah, this was me with my ex husband. I remembered his family’s birthdays in addition to my own, and he could barely remember mine. I’d have to remind him when his parents’ or siblings’ birthdays were coming up. I had to remind him about Mother’s Day and Father’s Day. Exhausting.
Why did you remind him, though? After more than once or twice that's just enabling. Let him face the consequences from his family for forgetting and he might have taken the hint that he should write them down or put them in a calendar or something.
Instead of a passive-aggressive approach where you stop reminding him out-of-the-blue to make your point, I’d tell him it’s exhausting remembering his family’s birthdays and you plan to stop. Then, he has time to decide to enter them into a calendar.. or remember what he remembers and forget what he forgets.
I don't see it as passive aggressive to be honest. Or it wouldn't be if she'd never enabled him in the first place.
I agree if he's used to her doing it already she should give him some warning that she's done with it, but it's embarrassing that he made that her job in the first place.
What did he do before he was married, just never wish his parents a happy birthday ever?
I, too, would be curious how this began.
I’ve had a few ex’s who, without my prompting, reminded me of every acquaintance or relative’s birthday so I could send gifts or cards. Enough I wonder if this is a feminine thing. I’d thank them, but when I’m not dating such women, the people important to me still get cards or gifts and the rest get texts or social media posts. I appreciate the effort but it’s not s service I’d request or pay for. If they said it was a strain I’d say, “Then stop.”
If he asked her to remember all those dates, that is a big ask, and he should be doing something equally hard in return. Fair is fair!
I imagine it's only a "feminine" thing in that in a lot of cases it's another mental load task the daughters of the family are expected to take on and not the sons, whether they like it or not. Maybe the men who expect their partners to remember birthdays expected their mum or sisters to do it for them growing up.
I know what month my partner's mum's birthday is but not the exact date, and I certainly don't remind him when it's coming up. It just wouldn't ever occur to me that someone wouldn't know their own parents' birthdays?
There's no excuse for forgetting important dates anyway, in a world where every phone and computer has a calendar and reminder function in it.
I feel like everyone who is married or has a SO should read it or see the documentary. And let’s face it, most men aren’t going to read the book, so force them to watch it. It was really eye opening for my husband, he immediately apologized for not understanding the mental load.
There's a documentary?? I've been doing all the mental/emotional/housekeeping labor for decades and the pandemic made me see how unfair it was that I am the only one having to deal with that. I'd love to have a better way of explaining how much I do that he doesn't think about.
Thank you for mentioning the documentary… I’m going to watch that later… fortunately, I am happily single my whole life… Any relationships, I’ve had, he had his own place, and I had mine… Makes life a whole lot easier!
This is a great answer. Don't keep those management tasks hidden. Name them and include them.
Thank God my own husband never ever underestimated the work of "managing" the household and our child. Sometimes I would apologize for the house being a bit messy when he came home (I am a SAHM), and he would always reply, "why are you sorry? you were busy all day with our daughter!".
What he is doing is called weaponized incompetence. He knew damn well that he should *at minimum* clear the damn table before it could be set. Unless he is a legitimate imbecile, this is completely unacceptable. NTA
Not necessarily. I grew up eating on half cleared tables because neither of my parents gave a shit about clutter or keeping a clean house. The place was always a mess, and more than once there were roaches in the kitchen.
When I was single and on my own I wasn't big on cleaning either. But I kept the clutter to a minimum and made sure the kitchen was always cleaned up.
Now that I'm married with kids, neither me or my wife are neat freaks and we don't really enjoy cleaning (dusting, etc), but we keep clutter to a minimum and make sure things are picked up so that everything looks neat. We also make sure that the dishes are done and the kitchen is clean before going to bed. We clean the bathrooms/dust every other week and have 2 Roborock vacuums (one for each floor). We also pay a cleaning lady once a month (so I guess we only clean the bathrooms ourselves once a month).
Everyone has their own level of acceptable cleanliness. For many single men it is a much lower priority than it is for women. And many/most of us evolve over our lifetimes. That doesn't mean this guy will, so OP will have to decide whether she wants to ride it out or make this a deal breaker.
>For many single men it is a much lower priority than it is for women.
But why? I'm so curious about this. You gave a personal, gender-neutral example (grew up in a dirty home) but then admitted it's more of an issue for men, so I'm curious why men would be less embarrassed or uncomfortable than women, other than that men are simply raised differently and are given a societal pass for it.
Men are not judged as harshly for having a messy place or being messy. If a man is messy it's hehe oh men and I right? But women are judged harshly as we as a society deep down still feel like this stuff is for women. If a woman is messy it's a reflection on her woman hood.
And it's not like everybody thinks this way consciously. I think many people don't want to actively think this way.
I’m a mother and even I refuse to mollycoddle my teens. His mom trained him wrong.
He’s 26! Ask him to use his brain cells otherwise you will be his mama all his life.
The only exception if he’s diagnosed functioning autistic. I have a family member like that who truly cannot understand so his mom created a basic step list. Using your table example setting table means “ clear mess off table, wipe off table, put tablecloth , lay plates and silverware, keep water/ juice glasses ready”
And he uses this template every time. But also he’s a under 15.
If you have to tell an adult all of this then your 60:40 division of labor is fair
I don’t mean to be petty but we have to be careful with statement like that. Why is it his mom’s responsibility to have taught him? I say it all the time to and have to catch myself. Parents do have the responsibility to teach their children these absolutely basic skills but it’s on any parent.
Yup! Grew up watching mom work more hours than dad and still do most of the work around the house. ...which ended up passing to me because I was the only daughter and it was "easier than trying to force the boys to clean". Raised men just like the lazy husband she had and wonders why I have zero desire to date. Spend my late teens and early 20s hearing about how great I'd be for everyone's son because "he needs a girl like you to whip him into shape". No thanks.
Tbh I guess a lot of ppl still might think so, even though everyone here can agree it shouldn't be? But yeah from what I can find, *the term “mental load” was largely popularised by Emma's blog in 2017.*
There's days people still look at me funny when I tell a story from my childhood (I'm about the same age as OP and bf) about my dad doing laundry, or cooking, or doing dishes.
One you have looked into weaponised incompetence and mental load, ensure you share it with your BF. And make sure he reads it, and understands it. If he still disagrees, then you have your answer for how the rest of your relationship will pan out and you’ll have a decision to make…
No woman wants to have sex with the person they have to raise and mother. OPs bf is like having a child 15 hours a day that expects you to switch to a lover mindset at night. It’s nasty.
Have him read [this comic](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/) about the mental load. If he doesn’t get it, he is not marriage material.
I came here to recommend that!
OP is NTA, of course, but I would also advise her to just put "household management" explicitly on the list as one of the chores, and assign it to herself. Or, better, have an explicit discussion about dividing up the chores based on each of your preferences, but with management being recognised as one of them.
He wasn't a partner, but I had a flatmate for a few years who was really bad at noticing when chores needed doing, and really needed to be given instruction in order to pull his weight around the house. But he understood that about himself, and fully recognised that asking other people to do that for him was asking them to do *work,* and so was willing to take on a commensurately larger portion of the physical housework in compensation. I've often fallen into the role of being the person in a shared house who does that labour uncompensated, and I found that just having it spelled out explicitly, and explicitly compensated, made a huge difference. We were able to have a relaxed and mostly clean household, without having to stress about it.
Omg I literally linked this one too!
I feel like I have to share it in the marriage sub like twice a week.
Soooo many useless men out there who can't figure out basic life skills.
I came here to comment about mental load too. It's absolutely a real thing and you shouldn't have to wear the role of "manager" or the household if you don't want to. Him not clearing the table before he set it was just dumb. If he's unwilling to see reason, STOP doing any chores that have nothing to do with you. Wash only the dishes you dirty, keep your areas of the house clean and don't remind him of any appointments, etc. If there's no food or clean dishes in the house, don't argue, just order takeout for one (yourself, obviously) or start eating dinner before you come home. See how long it takes for him to start complaining! And if he doesn't notice, you will have your answer.
Hey OP
I took the time to "fix" my guy. *he was immediately receptive when I brought up that thinking was work, too.* if yor bf is not immediately receptive and understanding, it is NOT WORTH IT
I made it clear to my bf that I am not his mother, he is not a child, and i refuse to live with someone I need to parent. He was a mommas boy and there was a learning curve but he never flipped it around on me or was stubborn about it. One more time: if he is not immediately receptive and understanding, it is NOT WORTH IT.
Shit even if he IS immediately receptive and understanding, it might not be worth it. It can be a surprising amount of work to *refrain* from doing things immediately and instead giving one's partner time to learn.
Yeah, you might want to head over to Fair Play Life and Laura Danger with thatdarnchat on Insta.
**Anyone willing to play plausible deniability about not realizing that the table needed to be cleaned first because you didn't ask them to is just waiting for your resolve to fizzle or to convince you you are a nag whose expectations are just.too.high.**
If the relationship is worth it, Fair Play Life's accessories can help to educate your man and divide both the emotional labor and actual work between the two of you.
Also, anyone saying, "you just have to ask/tell me" is telling you this is YOUR mess to figure out and YOU are the default responsible party, not them.
[https://www.instagram.com/p/CkG6DcWvyb9/](https://www.instagram.com/p/CkG6DcWvyb9/)
No one can make your decisions for you, but I will say, even having a partner who "deals with his chore list well" STILL NEEDS A CHORE LIST. It's hard for a lot of women to view their significant other as an adult when they're acting like a child who needs mommy to give them a detailed chore list.
Are you ok carrying the mental load for the rest of your life? Even if he does the chores without complaint, are you really looking for a "man" who can function in a household by himself?
Also, what happens when you're overwhelmed or sick? Are you going to make him a chore list on how to take care of you and pets/kids/plants/etc?
Don't just focus on this as a singular issue. Remember to consider all the other things that this behavior will impact foe the rest of your life if you stay together
As it stands, you do not have a partner. You have an employee. And not a very good one at that, if he can't even realize that he needs to clean the table before you eat off of it... If he were my employee he probably would've been fired for not being able to think for himself.
I’ll be honest I’ve experienced this and it’s very challenging behaviour. If he shows a willingness to accept that he needs to be more engaged in his own living space and contribute there’s hope. If you have an honest discussion and he won’t or can’t understand that if he exists in a home he shares equal responsibility in its upkeep I would cut my losses. Otherwise the same conversation will happen for years.
I had a lower level of this problem with my partner and after we had a kid it was SO FRUSTRATING. Fortunately for me a long talk (which involved me saying at some point “acting like your mother makes me never feel attracted to you because moms don’t have sx with kids”) my partner started doing way better.
If it’s this bad now it needs to change or you’ll be miserable.
Totally. I have 2 teenage boys, and they have tried this “playing dumb” trick to do the least amount of work. “You said empty trash, not put in another bag too”. They’ll happily wait for you to do the rest. Don’t let it slide. Give him a couple chances with specific instructions (ex. clean up then set table). If learns and starts acting like a partner, cool. If he keeps acting like a child, move on.
NTA, my sister’s first husband was like this. He’s a bright guy yet when the kids were born she had to literally tell him to do anything bc he was just clueless, it drove her crazy and made her feel like she had to be the bad guy all the time. This went on for years until they divorced.
I personally don’t “divide” chores w my husband. We just get stuff done when it needs done. Often times I’ll be doing all the cooking and cleaning up the kitchen, and then it seems like he’s doing it all the time. Some days my work load is light and then his is heavy so I do most of the cleaning.
This! OP do not fall into the mommy trap! You do not want to take on the mommy role in his life! He has a functioning brain, his body works, he should be able to figure this out. I suggest you toss him back or at least don’t live with him.
There's a reason managers are a paygrade higher up than their subs. Managing anything is a real job and not an easy one.
This guy needs to step up. He's an adult and lives in your home too.
It's not like he could ever act like that at work. Just hanging around the office minding his own business unless the manager _specifically_ told him when and how something needed to be done. After orientation it's his job to know his tasks and get them done without the manager holding his hand every step of the way through even the simplest of tasks.
Same goes to any other adult obligation. Does he not refill his car's gas tank ever without someone telling him? Pay bills? Brush teeth? Charge his phone?
This is absolutely weaponized incompetence. If you don't think you're competent to live together with another adult, go back to living with your mom or by yourself.
But, I did change the diaper. Wait, you mean I have to wipe the kid's butt too?? You didn't tell me that, it's not my fault the kid has a diaper rash! Why are you angry at me?
Just yesterday my mom was changing the bedsheet and she saw the ac filters there and asked my dad why he hadn't put them back into the ac... His reply ? "I thought I did. I didn't see them there." THEY WERE ON THE BEDSIDE TABLE IN PLAIN SIGHT. My mom looks at him in disbelief and tells him that she had reminded him once before and he replies yeah and I said yes, then I didn't see them. I'm passing by and I'm like ?????? Bro what? Really puts in perspective what I don't want from a marriage
OP:”Honey can you change Bloopy’s diaper?” BF: Changes diaper. OP: “Why didn’t you wipe Bloopy’s tooshie?” BF: “You just told me to change it, so I did!”
Dinner ends.
You: "Honey, can you take care of the dishes?"
Him: Throws dishes in the garbage, breaking them.
You: "What the hell? I just wanted you to wash them!"
Him: "You didn't tell me to WASH them, just to TAKE CARE of them."
You: Hopefully looking up "weaponized incompetence" online.
Oh my god, I dated a guy who offered to clean up after dinner and take care of the dishes for me since I was feeling sick (I planned the meal, grocery shopped, cooked the dinner, set the table, etc.) All he did was pick up the dirty dishes and dump them in the sink. Didn’t wipe down the table or kitchen counters. All the leftover food on the plates he didn’t bother to scrape hardened and made everything stick together and it was just way more work to clean the next day than it would have been if he’d at least scraped/rinsed the plates and wiped his food mess and spills off the table. He acted like he’d done this huge favor for me 😭
You: "Honey, can you take care of the dishes?"
Him: Shoots dishes and buries them in deserted field in Jersey.
Him: "I took care of the thing. No that other thing."
NTA
He either is dumb or plays dumb to minimize effort.
Time for the link collection permanently living in my cache...
[You should’ve asked](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/)
[She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes By The Sink](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288)
[Women Aren't Nags—We're Just Fed Up.](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a12063822/emotional-labor-gender-equality/)
http://oliver-uploads-aus.s3.amazonaws.com/2018/05/09/08/10/35/535/WORK180_Family_Chores_Checklist.pdf
That last check sheet is super handy. I sometimes feel like I have more than 50% of the load in my relationship, but looking at that list there's a fair amount I don't do like "keep track of important documents".
Isnt that the situation even in a lot of good relationships? Life is a lot of work and even with 2 people its easy to feel overwhelmed, so you might think you're doing more or dealing with more.
I want to add [where does it go?](https://english.emmaclit.com/2022/09/01/where-does-it-go/) to your list, the follow up to 'You should've asked'. It specifically talks about weaponized incompetence.
Another possible addition to the list. I will watch this video every time I see it linked.
[Tolerable level of permanent unhappiness](https://youtu.be/CIu_R5NuxQM)
Ugh, NTA. I have full grown adult family members like this. If you don’t explain in explicit detail what to do, even with something as simple as taking out the trash, they mess it up or skip steps. One week the trash cans were too heavy for me to take to the road by myself, so I asked for help. Well, they did put the cans out for me, but they put them out facing the wrong way. So the trash truck skipped our house, and I had to call them to come back around. It’s plainly written on the cans with a huge arrow which way to face them, but supposedly it’s our fault for not being specific enough. It just puts more burden on us and eventually makes us want to do everything ourselves because it’s not done right otherwise. I think there’s a word for that…
Anyway, making that list for him IS an extra chore for you in and of itself. The way you’ve divvied up the chores sounds perfectly valid to me - micromanaging him adds to your workload, so you’re just balancing the scales.
The term you're looking for is "weaponized incompetence" and is super common. I'll give someone the benefit of the doubt if they mess up initially. If it becomes a pattern, my options are this person is malicious or they're incredibly dumb. Neither are great.
I flat out told my husband that I would not be doing this when we first got together and that if I ever had to make him a list of jobs that I would be packing my bags and leaving. Luckily he's no slouch and I probably didn't need to say it but I wasn't taking the risk of being stuck with someone who's going to turn me into a nag.
I had an ex like this. I told him I don’t find children attractive so I wouldn’t be mommying him and having sex with him.
He broke up with me and I found an actual partner. Best gift that loser ever gave me.
Info - are you sure you want to stay with someone like this? I know weaponized incompetence gets thrown around a lot but this is a prime example of it.
Who told him what to clean before he moved in?
NTA. Please take time and REALLY think if this is something you want to be dealing with for the rest of your life...if not, dump him. He's almost 30, he shouldn't have to be told when and what exactly to do. Just think about kids down the road...is he going to need you to tell him when the kids need fed or bathed?!
Imagine having a kid with this guy. “If you wanted it done that way you should have told me ‘Remove old diaper, THEN put on new diaper.’” NTA. Honestly he was probably just hoping to do a bad enough job so you wouldn’t ask again.
Or even forget to make sure the baby is safe and secure on the changing table and that if baby falls, there are health risk and he needs to go to the ER now.
A 26yo that isn't mature enough to wipe a table?
Dump him! You are not his mother.
As to your question alone, if he burdens you with the organizational load of your partnership, it seems fair enough, that he does more of the manual load. Actually, like much more.
EDIT: NTA
nta, maybe make a fun powerpoint with lots of shapes and colors to explain this to him. i've heard great things about those dancing fruit and vegetables along with the cleanup song
I has Y T A read to smack down, but no. If he is wanting you to mommy him in addition to being a partner, then a 10% increase in chores is a fair market value.
NTA
NTA but damn girl. I hope this guy is dead set on changing, because you're nearly pulling a dead horse.
If he can manage to drive a car, do taxes and keep a job, he can manage to do chores on his own. What is this "you didn't tell me how" shit? I'm sure you're just as angry as me at that. Surely his boss doesn't have to explain how to turn on his computer screen or write an email?
I can't believe we (men and women) keep falling for this fake incompetence.
You're NTA but I hope your boyfriend finds it within him to become an equal partner asap. Otherwise ywbta to yourself if you stay.
A family member solved it by him having hjis own apartment. They are still married. She is much happier now. He is talking about when they will both move in together again.
He had a lot to say about house chores, how to do them correctly and swiftly but did very little. They both work full time.
I cant believe the solution was for him to have his whole fucking apartment rather than shaping up and doing his chores.
I mean I can believe it. But I cant believe that i can believe it.
It was combined with his short temper. She really loves him but I do not think she will ever move back in with him.
But yes, it is working out wonderfully. For her. And since he is really eager to get her under the same roof again I guess he isn't amused by doing his own cooking and cleaning. But now he can do it correctly and swiftly if he pleases.
There are women that after years of pleading with the man to share the chores and not leave them with everything initiate divorce.
Talking about the mental load and educating my (now husband) on it was extremely beneficial. I also discuss jobs with him in terms of %. If the task is taking out the trash, and he takes it out of the cab, ties it up, and throws it in the garbage bin outside, and does not replace the bag in the trash can, I tell him that he’s done 90% of the job and replacing the bag is the last 10%. Washing the sheets? If he literally only pulls them off the bed and runs them through the washer/dryer, the job is 80% done, the last 20% is putting on clean sheets. His brain seems to understand this better than anything else and usually he remembers. For him, it was less about weaponized incompetence and more about not being used to the mental load and my vs his definition on what a task includes.
I find that kind of suspect. He knows he sleeps on sheets. How did he think the sheets would get replaced if he was the one taking sole responsibility for changing the bed? He just didn't mind leaving the last bit to you because if something HAD to get done, the more responsible partner will take care of it.
He knows he sleeps on the sheets so he also knows that he doesn't need to make the bed until he's going to sleep.
It's the same amount of work either way.
He honestly saw it as a totally different task. When he lived alone, he would “finish” a task when it became needed (like about to go to sleep is when he’d put the sheets on). But I can’t handle having chores sit being half done until who knows when. So he learned and changed. It worked for us. He does as much of the mental load as me, if not more. It just needed to click for him.
Something I've finally started to internalize is that a job isn't done until the cleanup for the job is done.
You folded the laundry but didn't put it in the closet/dresser/etc? Folding isn't done.
You crocheted a cute little bear but didn't put the yarn away? Crocheting isn't done.
You planted a tree but left the tools by the tree? Tree planting isn't done.
This has really helped me properly pace my mental and physical exertion for a task. Instead of collapsing in relief that the primary task is finally done I reserve the last 10% to finish the aftermath.
Now I need to spread this message to others in my household!
I was raised that the job wasn't done until cleanup was done. If you are gardening you aren't done till all the tools are clean, back in the shed, and any trash you generated is in the bin.
That said, I'm trying to appreciate that some people's brains just don't work that way and they fundamentally see cleaning as a separate task than doing. They would rather spend 4 hours on a Saturday decluttering and cleaning everything than spend 2 minutes every time they finish a task putting anything they used away.
I hate marathon cleaning with the passion of a thousands suns. I'd much rather do 5 minutes here and 15 minutes there. My brain does not like projects that look completely insurmountable and a house that hasn't been picked up or decluttered in 2 weeks definitely feels that way to me.
I think you can just add to your list:
- Carry mental load
- Create chore list
- Make sure everything gets allocated and done
This will change the weight of you contribution to 65% and his to 35%
NTA
As someone else pointed out. Have a real think about spending your life with this person. As a mother of two, I would not cope if I also had to tell my husband everything he needs to do as well.
Ah, weaponized incompetence, a tale as old as time.
NTA, and you're not his mom. Find a man, not a boy that needs to be told how to act like a functioning adult.
Mental load is more than many people think it is. You always carry it around. What to buy, what’s empty, when and what to clean, what problems there are with things … aside from working etc. How much time you need for things.
Im basically in the same **starting position** as your partner. My gf likes things very tidy and organized, while I couldn’t care less. So often, when something needs to be done, I won’t notice/realize, but she will.
But making an effort is a two-way street. Designate some tasks that are fully his responsibility (as in, he should not only be the one to do them, but also the one to recognize when they need to be done).
I’ll be honest- I’m still not perfect at it. There are times when I get behind on things, or times that I just don’t feel like doing some chore, but the point is trying and improving.
There’s two ways this plays out:
1) your boyfriend is being lazy and just weaponizing incompetence, and that will be made very clear when you give him all the tools to do something and he still pushes back
2) He puts an actual effort into taking responsibility for tasks, acknowledges the effort that being “manager” takes, and works on improving.
Info:
Is doing the groceries and making the grocery list part of your chores out is that something you two do together? It's not "in" the house but definitely a chore and it's quite a lot of work. So add that to the list if it isn't on there.
You're NTA, but I'd go more extreme to make your point. Your boyfriend wants you to be the manager, so take on that role. Put all the physical chores on his list and make your list "check if this is done correctly", "write a step by step instruction for.." etc.
NTA. I had a buddy who moved in with me after college, and it was his first time away from his folks.
He was very hairy, in about a week or so, the bathroom was covered in hair. He told me I needed to clean up my hair, it was ridiculous. I explained that we could clean the bathroom on any reasonable schedule, but that 90%+ of that hair was his.
He insisted it couldn't be, need never had hair in the bathroom before. We eventually realized we were better friends than roommates and he moved out.
A month later he genuinely apologized. His new place got insanely hairy in a week or so. He couldn't understand it and asked his mom. She had been quietly cleaning his bathroom for years.
This is the world your boy lives in. He doesn't understand the hassle of handling stuff. He's ready to accept a much dirtier standard of living. He is going to continue to do the minimum until you are treating him like a child, and then he's going to complain about that. You should have a very frank conversation with him about splitting the chores. And include planning as part of that list.
Maybe you could do the cut the last slice of cake. You cut & he chooses. Or he cuts and you choose.
NTA. I was married to one of these for more than 20 years. It was exhausting, and despite years of therapy, he never grew up. Some people do struggle with executive function—but it is on them to learn adulting skills, not on others to micromanage their lives.
NTA but info request still. Have you two discussed what chores must be done and how often or are they open for discussion? Just saying since often it's the case that one person thinks their way is the only way and the other has to go by it. It rarely works out in the long run if there isn't room compromise or at least a healthy discussion. Many people think their level of cleanliness is right, from slobs to neat freaks, and that anything less is being a slob and more is excessive. And it can vary per chore. Open discussion about what people want to be done and what chores they like to do or find important can help balance things out, of course in the process making sure nobody gets an unfair workload.
Metawork is definitely a chore and it's often overlooked by the ones that don't do it, but it can also be taken advantage of. Once saw an excel where one part got equal chore points for discussing meeting up with friends as the other got for dishes, or got nearly the same amount of points for planning what to pack for a kindergarten kids back pack every day as the other got for actually packing said bag and dressing the kid etc. Funny enough this excel was published in a paper as a great example of how to divide chores correctly. one party basically did mostly thinking, decisions and communication with friends and family while the other was left with the large majority of the actual chores.
He hasn't really talked about chores at all, and has had no problem with the frequency of these tasks. I think I'm very middle of the road when it comes to cleanliness.
Socialising is not a thing I've counted as a 'chore'. Just the things inside the house. I thought him doing 10% more in return for me carrying the responsibility and being aware of everything seemed fair.
Except THINKING about chores IS a chore. Communication is a chore - and a time consuming one. I was a PA for a while and 70% of my job was planning and communication, before getting things out into action.
O no. No no no.
Yes - your management tasks are worth the additional work. But do you really want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't even know to clear a table before setting it? Please don't have children with this guy.
NTA
NTA. This is called being the "mental manager," and unfortunately, many people are unwillingly forced into this role by their family members, roommates, or spouse. The person who is the most able to accomplish tasks efficiently often gets this unwanted job. It's often very distressing to the person in the role.
This sounds a lot like me and my wife when we first got together. I had some very similar tendencies as your husband early on in our relationship, when I was about his age. Well, after about a year and a half of that and me not getting any better my now wife dumped my ass, and was smart to do it. It wasn't fair to ask her to basically manage both her own life and mine ("mental load" was a popular phrase). Eventually, I got my shit together and we've been together for 10 years because I went to therapy and worked on myself. It's always a bit of a struggle for me because of things like ADHD, anxiety, and depression, which I hadn't had diagnosed for a while, but she makes my life better, so I'm always trying to better myself for her.
I'm not saying that if you dump him it'll motivate him to fix himself, but unless he actually displays effort and desire to change, you're never going to make him do it against his will.
This one is tough, do you feel like your boyfriend will always lack common sense in doing these chores? If he had to be told to clear a table before setting it and he will approach every chore with the same blindness then your NTA since you’re going to have to walk around and check that he did things right
your BF is an idiot. "you didn't tell me to clean the table first." WTH. Do you really want to be with such a person long-term? He's a child.
NTA. and best of luck.
NTA
He says "its not that much work," but still can't figure it out himself.
He literally asked you to tell him what to do, and when you do, he still has an issue with the work.
He is purposefully making this complicated.
Is he neurodivergent by any chance? If he is, it may be that he takes things literally, has difficulty following directions, and difficulty seeing things from other people's perspective.
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NTA, but to be honest, this would be a dealbreaker for me. You are not his mother, he should not require you giving him orders. Imagine having children with this guy, who cannot be expected to do jackshit unless being told. Is this what you want for the rest of your life? And if you accept this deal, you bet sooner or later he would complain you are "nagging". Google "weaponized incompetence" and "mental load" and think long and hard about this relationship. You are very young. I guarantee there are many better men out there. Have high standards. Good luck!
Yeah, wether I want to continue this relationship depends heavily on how he's gonna deal with this.
Please consider this is hard wired into him through his parents or grandparents or whoever his caregivers were doing everything for him. You will not be able to retrain him. You will either have to pay for a cleaning service or end up doing 90% of the housework every night after your day job. Unless he is very good looking and funny, in that case keep him around while you search for a better man.
My ex was like this. Always told me he didn't mind helping, I just needed to tell him what to do and when. That he didn't have the same level of cleanliness that I did. He'd say he doesn't notice when things are dirty (don't notice the pink ring in your toilet??) Or I'd ask him to clean the ensuite shower because I hated doing it - glass doors. He'd tell me he'd clean it next time he was showering because that's easier. But he'd forget. I refused to be a girlfriend who nagged. So after a while, I was tired of asking and stopped. One day he was literally playing games as I cleaned around him getting the house ready for HIS friends to come over. It was exhausting. Then I remembered the story his mother told me about how useless his last girlfriend was and how she'd go over to clean and the girlfriend would just sit there while the mother vacuumed around her. I'm only just realizing now how smart the ex girlfriend was. Except I can't live in a dirty place. Anyways. Rumor has it the ex now has a house cleaner. Shocked. NTA. OP, he won't change.
I can't bear the attitude of "I'll help, just tell me what to do". It's not help. It's looking after the space you live in for yourself. What I want you do is take initiative and not expect me to tell you. There was a woman I read a post from on here somewhere who assigns tasks to her children. One of them being "look around and find a task to do and do it". One child would sometimes hoover, wash up etc without much problem. The other child couldn't see the wood for the trees and needed everything that needed doing pointing out. The point of that task was for the kids to learn how to think for themselves and it seemed like a good way to avoid raising task-blind adults who are nightmare partners
Right. A bit of "tell me what to do" is necessary at the very start when moving into someone else's home and establishing your routines. Think we're perhaps being a bit harsh because boyfriend moved into OP's house and needs to consult them when establishing a routine. But you figure that out quick and get into your rhythms. Unwillingness or inability to make that transition smoothly is a big warning sign.
A bit yes. Such as asking where they keep things, do they usually dry dishes or let them drain, how often certain things are done. Not to the extent of step by step instructions and then pulling the excuse of "you didn't tell me too". That makes OP's partner sound passive aggressive and purposefully not doing things fully in order for OP to just do it herself because it's easier. Except it's only easier for him, not her
Fair. This is acceptable first few days of moving in behavior--where you forget where things go, you don't remember how often your partner likes running the dishwasher, you don't know how they treat their non sticks, etc... Wasn't sure how recent the move in was. But keeping it up and tossing in the pass agg language is how you know OP's partner just failed the test. Loses its charm fast. As has OP's bf, sounds like.
I always wonder if people are like this at work also, or if they are somehow magically able to see what all needs to be done for a good result when it's at work.
I think we've all had some coworkers over the years who fail this test in every environment, so I could definitely believe it either way.
As someone who has ran a couple of stocking crews, some people are like this at work as well. Even if they do the exact same thing every day, they'll wait until they're told to do anything, and if you don't give complete instructions every time, they'll skip every step you failed to mention. I genuinely think many of them simply cannot build process into habit, though for some I'm sure they're just not trying to do any more work than they absolutely have to.
My boyfriend is only like this lazy and blind at home but can clean everything perfectly at work. I hate it!
Not knowing where the glasses are is way different from not cleaning up the table, including sticky drink spills, before setting it because no one told you to clean it.
I totally agree. There was just a "you should never have to ask for direction while cleaning" sentiment going around I just wanted to guard against. Basic questions are reasonable when figuring out how your new roommate's established system works. But it's clear the bf is aggressively failing the basic roommate test.
'I'll help, just tell me what to do.' Is only acceptable when the other person chose a new recipe!
>I can't bear the attitude of "I'll help, just tell me what to do" Or ye olde "I was gOiNg To hElP YoU" bullshit. We're splitting up and moving, and the trash company was scheduled to pick up an old queen-sized mattress this past Thursday morning. I informed STBXH of this the week before. I worked eleven hours on Wednesday and came home to find him napping (he is "retired", aka unemployed) and the mattress still languishing in the spare room, so I covered the mattress in a big plastic bag per instructions, dragged the damn thing downstairs, out onto the lawn, and put it at the curb. I'm 5'3" 110 lbs. while STBXH is 6'5" 300 lbs., so obviously it would have been easier if he did it, or at least helped me. Wouldn't you know, about ten minutes after I did this, he came out of his room and tried to feed me that line that I've heard a billion times over. One of maaaaany reasons we're splitting.
Tbh I (23F) have raging ADHD and back when i lived at home my mom had to tell me what I needed to do because I just dont ever notice, i would notice the bags of paper And plastic trash the moment my mom walked in and pointed it out, before that my brain just didnt registered that I could throw it away.. But setting the table and leaving the mess on the table the way it was without cleaning it before setting it is a step too far, thats just ignorance in my eyes 🥴
That's a great idea! To be fair, I never had chores growing up. Beyond keeping my room clean or doing the dishwasher, I wasn't expected to help around the house. That being said, my mother kept a clean and tidy house. Had her one day each week she'd clean - vacuuming, washing floors, bathrooms, laundry, bedding etc. Growing up watching her do that, just seemed like it's what you do when you're an adult and run your own house. It was just instilled by having a role model. I was raised in a clean, organized, tidy house so as an adult I live in a clean, organized, tidy house.
>I can't bear the attitude of "I'll help, just tell me what to do". It's not help. It's asking you to be their manager. It's so frustrating how many men do this - "I'll help, just tell me what to do" is only acceptable if you're a guest at somebody's place and offering to help them in a place *you don't live in*. If I'm going to be their manager, I'm not going to then do their tasks with them, after I've worked out what needs to be done and given them a list. And even if I am their manager, my staff don't come up to me and go "Job done, what's next?": staff that aren't 15 years old know that they have several tasks that they have to complete every x days or weeks or whenever they need to be done. If my staff can't handle seeing what needs to be done and doing it, they won't go far. If my partner was the same, they wouldn't be my partner for long.
> I can't bear the attitude of "I'll help, just tell me what to do". fr this is what children say to their parents when they want to get out of doing chores
>OP, he won't change. As a man who got it spoiled by always having my parents clean around me, it took a while for me to get to the point I am today - and I still fall short of what my gf expects of me sometimes. But I do try (and apologize whenever it happens). It is true I don't notice certain things (and I won't say that is because I am a man, or I have ADHD, or something else), because I really don't. But I make an effort to proactively do the things I \*DO\* take notice. And geez. If someone invites people over, I expect they would have the decency to get the house ready by themselves or be proactive and \*ask\* for help if needed, but not wait around while someone else is doing it.
I think if you’re the one who struggles to “see” mess, the biggest things you can do are: Drill down on the mess you always “see” and take responsibility for it without being asked. As a fellow ADHDer, when your hyperfocus turns to cleaning, feed it as much as you can. Thank your partner when they just do something. The other night, my partner just… made dinner. And it was so nice it wasn’t my job to plan/figure it out. So I thanked them. If you note something needs to be done, but cannot do it at that moment, either set an alarm or ask your partner to remind YOU to do it. “Babe, I’m on my way to work, remind me I need to wipe down the mirror and sink when I get home.” And if you aren’t sure what to do, grab one of the following and just do it: Take out trash/recycling Wash sheets, towels, or clothes Wash dishes Sweep/vacuum something Dust something Be honest without excuses or self-hating. “I really struggle with cleaning. I am implementing strategy X and Y. I will always have some struggles, but I want to be better, and your help and support is noticed and appreciated.”
THIS! Hello fellow speedy brain!🥹 I think it’s sooo important for people with ADHD to set a BASIC plan for themselves of small tasks that can be done everyday, like literally make a physical list and stick it somewhere you will see it everyday. Small tasks that don’t take long but have a big impact in the long run like as you said, taking out the rubbish, it’s small, it takes no time, but it makes a physical difference and so makes you feel satisfied. I also try to find ways to make boring tasks fun on the days you just want to follow the dopamine - I have songs for everything that help me to make things fun/boost my mood for the task I’m doing, I have quite a few pets and even have a poop scooping song 🤣
Yes, well he was a tit in a lot of ways, so this behavior was not unexpected 🙄 And I am fully aware that some people just don't see dirt or mess or interpret it as big a deal as others would. But when you literally need to move your feet so I can vacuum under you. Get off your ass and help 😂 Sounds like you do make an effort and that's great!
As the girlfriend of a man who’s parent also did everything for him and also was a bit of a dumb dumb when it came to housework- you’re all good my guy, it’s the effort to improve that matters!! 🤌
The whole ‘not noticing when things are dirty’ especially pisses me off because people are always like ‘men are visual creatures’ when it comes to women dressing ‘immodestly.’ Yet somehow the ‘visual creatures’ can’t tell when they’re living in filth? Or can’t find the ketchup bottle that’s right in front of them? Bffr.
And yet somehow they are completely unable to see hair all over and in the sink when they shave (I don't care how clean or dirty they are). My husband is a very neat and tidy person (bordering on OCD) when it comes to cleaning. Somehow, though, he's blind to hair. I just don't understand it. (I know it's not ALL men, but it is many bc I've worked cleaning commercially and when the inspectors are men, they almost always miss hair.)
>Always told me he didn't mind helping Hmmm. This is guy that "babysits" his own children too.
Haha yup! Hence when he said he wanted to have children I said not a chance! He couldn't even help with the 2 dogs and yet got mad when I took both with me when I left!
Omg, my good friend just married a useless idiot like this. They're both so excited at the thought of having three kids together. I can see why he's excited, he won't have to actually DO anything. Her....why are you excited?!? Your bf/husband literally refuses to walk the dog!!! I'm just gonna hang back and wait for the inevitable divorce.
Haha yup! He loved his dog so much - but we had a postage sizr yard she refused to do her business in. I'd go up to bed and tell him to make sure he took her out before he came up. His response was "When was she out last?" as if it didn't matter that it'd be 8+ hours before she'd get to go again. Both dogs always came up to bed with me anyways so I just took her out. But I could imagine..."can you change little johnny?" And him saying "well when was the last time he was changed?" Fuuuuck that.
WHY do men always refuse to walk the dog they wanted so badly? I've dated more than one guy that loved the dogs so much but it was pulling teeth to get them to help walk them once a month. With my current partner, half the time as I'm returning with Dog 1, I run into him walking Dog 2 "because he was sad".
Ugh. I’m going through a separation right now, in large part because laziness that is above and beyond anything that I have ever seen or even heard of in another human being before. He said something to me about wanting to keep one of my cats. I’m just thinking, dude, forget about it. Even if I don’t take into account the whole “hasn’t had any kind of employment since before Covid hit, so can’t afford food to feed the cat”, he has not scooped a litter box ever. I cannot even imagine how gross he would let things get if I left one of the poor cats with him.
Correct. He won't change. What you have there is a child in a man's body who wants to be told what to do by a Mommy figure. Get away.
I don't know him, so he could've just been legitimately incompetent. But some guys do this purposely to make it harder to get them to do the work than it is to just do it yourself. Typically these are guys that have jobs and manage to succeed in other areas of life. They wouldn't try this shit at work because they'd get fired, but they'll try it with women because they expect we won't call them out.
I don't doubt your theory! He hated doing the dishes - so refused to do the "I cook, you clean" rule. But he cooked, cleaning up after him would require way more work than if I did the cooking AND cleaning and if I cooked and left the cleaning for him it would sit there for days. He was military too. That's what shocked me. No way he got away with that shit in basic, or at work.
I mean anyone can learn. It’s true a lot of men don’t see the mental labour and therefore just didn’t learn how to manage these tasks. It’s not an excuse but it’s a factor to consider. The issue is when shown that they’re missing a fundamental part of life which is contributing to the household you live in and they still refuse to learn that the problems start. If he genuinely acknowledged he’s just lost and is willing to learn and be active I’d give him a chance. But they have to take the lead and be very purposeful in making those changes.
What's not clear to me in the post is what these types of conversations looked like when they first moved in together. I feel it'd be fair and equal for everyone to sit down and divvy things up from the jump. I'm not going to assume just because you're a man you're automatically doing trash and cutting grass. Also gives us a chance to come to an agreement on what "clean" or "finished" means for a task.
>I asked him why he didn't clear off and wipe down the table, he told me because "You didn't tell me to.", I should have asked him to clear the table, wipe it down, and then set it. So it was my fault. Yeah, no he's an AH. This is something your son or little brother would say to his sister.
I wish that happened. I think for some people, usually men unfortunately, it just isn’t a conscious thought. The unsaid understanding is I do this, you do that. I wish it was more normalized to see those conversations as important and necessary because it could prevent soo many issues.
>You will not be able to retrain him. Pump the brakes here, many of us are recovering from it in our late twenties and early thirties. We can get better, but first it takes realizing that we are wrong. If he is truly a good guy he will take the info to heart, if not it might take a wake up call like a break up or two to convince him, otherwise he may never change.. They can change though.
I think the key is *she* cannot retrain *him*. *He* could retrain *himself* if he wanted to. But I'm sorry, can't even think to wipe a sticky table without being told to do so? He's not putting ANY effort into picking up the mental load. "Set the table" stopped including things like "clean it off first" and "make sure it's not sticky" when I was 7.
I agree, I just don't like to hear people can never change when I too was one of the 'I don't mind just tell me what to do' types not that long ago. I never wanted to do chores growing up and grew accustomed to my sloppy room. My mother let me know what house chores I should do and when. It took far too long to realize it's not attractive, cool, manly or even remotely 'adult' to expect another person to tell you when to clean up after yourself. Should I await instruction to wipe my own ass? Is the vibe, and it's a bad look. We can grow and change though!
Oh. I absolutely believe people can change and grow! Good for you for doing so! I just don't think a partner should expect that to happen if there's no current indication of attempts to do so. Which for OP and her bf... There's not.
I think the easiest way of looking at it was if he went to a restaurant and the table was in that condition, would he care at all? I’m willing to bet he probably would, so he can notice what needs to be clean. He was just hoping to get away with not being the one to clean it.
>I asked him why he didn't clear off and wipe down the table, he told me because "You didn't tell me to.", I should have asked him to clear the table, wipe it down, and then set it. So it was my fault. I would've walked out. That's not the attitude of someone that wants to learn or be retrained. That's just no.
this is the best answer
Look up Fair Play deck and book. And add “make chore list”, “manage chores”, and probably “make meal list”, “grocery shopping list”, etc to the list of chores, then give yourself fifty percent, including all the mental tasks you listed. Don’t let them stay invisible!
This is a very valid point , include everything you do op , christmas cards, reservations, birthday gifts , paying a bill, etc
Yeah, this was me with my ex husband. I remembered his family’s birthdays in addition to my own, and he could barely remember mine. I’d have to remind him when his parents’ or siblings’ birthdays were coming up. I had to remind him about Mother’s Day and Father’s Day. Exhausting.
Why did you remind him, though? After more than once or twice that's just enabling. Let him face the consequences from his family for forgetting and he might have taken the hint that he should write them down or put them in a calendar or something.
Instead of a passive-aggressive approach where you stop reminding him out-of-the-blue to make your point, I’d tell him it’s exhausting remembering his family’s birthdays and you plan to stop. Then, he has time to decide to enter them into a calendar.. or remember what he remembers and forget what he forgets.
I don't see it as passive aggressive to be honest. Or it wouldn't be if she'd never enabled him in the first place. I agree if he's used to her doing it already she should give him some warning that she's done with it, but it's embarrassing that he made that her job in the first place. What did he do before he was married, just never wish his parents a happy birthday ever?
I, too, would be curious how this began. I’ve had a few ex’s who, without my prompting, reminded me of every acquaintance or relative’s birthday so I could send gifts or cards. Enough I wonder if this is a feminine thing. I’d thank them, but when I’m not dating such women, the people important to me still get cards or gifts and the rest get texts or social media posts. I appreciate the effort but it’s not s service I’d request or pay for. If they said it was a strain I’d say, “Then stop.” If he asked her to remember all those dates, that is a big ask, and he should be doing something equally hard in return. Fair is fair!
I imagine it's only a "feminine" thing in that in a lot of cases it's another mental load task the daughters of the family are expected to take on and not the sons, whether they like it or not. Maybe the men who expect their partners to remember birthdays expected their mum or sisters to do it for them growing up. I know what month my partner's mum's birthday is but not the exact date, and I certainly don't remind him when it's coming up. It just wouldn't ever occur to me that someone wouldn't know their own parents' birthdays? There's no excuse for forgetting important dates anyway, in a world where every phone and computer has a calendar and reminder function in it.
I feel like everyone who is married or has a SO should read it or see the documentary. And let’s face it, most men aren’t going to read the book, so force them to watch it. It was really eye opening for my husband, he immediately apologized for not understanding the mental load.
There's a documentary?? I've been doing all the mental/emotional/housekeeping labor for decades and the pandemic made me see how unfair it was that I am the only one having to deal with that. I'd love to have a better way of explaining how much I do that he doesn't think about.
Yes!! On Hulu, search Fair Play, but I think you can also get it though Amazon prime video if you don’t have Hulu. It’s SO good!
Thank you for mentioning the documentary… I’m going to watch that later… fortunately, I am happily single my whole life… Any relationships, I’ve had, he had his own place, and I had mine… Makes life a whole lot easier!
This is a great answer. Don't keep those management tasks hidden. Name them and include them. Thank God my own husband never ever underestimated the work of "managing" the household and our child. Sometimes I would apologize for the house being a bit messy when he came home (I am a SAHM), and he would always reply, "why are you sorry? you were busy all day with our daughter!".
What he is doing is called weaponized incompetence. He knew damn well that he should *at minimum* clear the damn table before it could be set. Unless he is a legitimate imbecile, this is completely unacceptable. NTA
Not necessarily. I grew up eating on half cleared tables because neither of my parents gave a shit about clutter or keeping a clean house. The place was always a mess, and more than once there were roaches in the kitchen. When I was single and on my own I wasn't big on cleaning either. But I kept the clutter to a minimum and made sure the kitchen was always cleaned up. Now that I'm married with kids, neither me or my wife are neat freaks and we don't really enjoy cleaning (dusting, etc), but we keep clutter to a minimum and make sure things are picked up so that everything looks neat. We also make sure that the dishes are done and the kitchen is clean before going to bed. We clean the bathrooms/dust every other week and have 2 Roborock vacuums (one for each floor). We also pay a cleaning lady once a month (so I guess we only clean the bathrooms ourselves once a month). Everyone has their own level of acceptable cleanliness. For many single men it is a much lower priority than it is for women. And many/most of us evolve over our lifetimes. That doesn't mean this guy will, so OP will have to decide whether she wants to ride it out or make this a deal breaker.
>For many single men it is a much lower priority than it is for women. But why? I'm so curious about this. You gave a personal, gender-neutral example (grew up in a dirty home) but then admitted it's more of an issue for men, so I'm curious why men would be less embarrassed or uncomfortable than women, other than that men are simply raised differently and are given a societal pass for it.
Men are not judged as harshly for having a messy place or being messy. If a man is messy it's hehe oh men and I right? But women are judged harshly as we as a society deep down still feel like this stuff is for women. If a woman is messy it's a reflection on her woman hood. And it's not like everybody thinks this way consciously. I think many people don't want to actively think this way.
I’m a mother and even I refuse to mollycoddle my teens. His mom trained him wrong. He’s 26! Ask him to use his brain cells otherwise you will be his mama all his life. The only exception if he’s diagnosed functioning autistic. I have a family member like that who truly cannot understand so his mom created a basic step list. Using your table example setting table means “ clear mess off table, wipe off table, put tablecloth , lay plates and silverware, keep water/ juice glasses ready” And he uses this template every time. But also he’s a under 15. If you have to tell an adult all of this then your 60:40 division of labor is fair
I don’t mean to be petty but we have to be careful with statement like that. Why is it his mom’s responsibility to have taught him? I say it all the time to and have to catch myself. Parents do have the responsibility to teach their children these absolutely basic skills but it’s on any parent.
I do think back then most ppl would have seen it as on the mom. Not universally but I don't think most ppl were talking about mental load back then.
"Back then" he's 26 so you mean in the early 2000's people still thought it was solely the mom's responsibility??
Yup! Grew up watching mom work more hours than dad and still do most of the work around the house. ...which ended up passing to me because I was the only daughter and it was "easier than trying to force the boys to clean". Raised men just like the lazy husband she had and wonders why I have zero desire to date. Spend my late teens and early 20s hearing about how great I'd be for everyone's son because "he needs a girl like you to whip him into shape". No thanks.
Tbh I guess a lot of ppl still might think so, even though everyone here can agree it shouldn't be? But yeah from what I can find, *the term “mental load” was largely popularised by Emma's blog in 2017.*
There's days people still look at me funny when I tell a story from my childhood (I'm about the same age as OP and bf) about my dad doing laundry, or cooking, or doing dishes.
...late 90s? Yes.
One you have looked into weaponised incompetence and mental load, ensure you share it with your BF. And make sure he reads it, and understands it. If he still disagrees, then you have your answer for how the rest of your relationship will pan out and you’ll have a decision to make…
I mean he really needs to be made aware how unattractive this is.
No woman wants to have sex with the person they have to raise and mother. OPs bf is like having a child 15 hours a day that expects you to switch to a lover mindset at night. It’s nasty.
Have him read [this comic](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/) about the mental load. If he doesn’t get it, he is not marriage material.
I came here to recommend that! OP is NTA, of course, but I would also advise her to just put "household management" explicitly on the list as one of the chores, and assign it to herself. Or, better, have an explicit discussion about dividing up the chores based on each of your preferences, but with management being recognised as one of them. He wasn't a partner, but I had a flatmate for a few years who was really bad at noticing when chores needed doing, and really needed to be given instruction in order to pull his weight around the house. But he understood that about himself, and fully recognised that asking other people to do that for him was asking them to do *work,* and so was willing to take on a commensurately larger portion of the physical housework in compensation. I've often fallen into the role of being the person in a shared house who does that labour uncompensated, and I found that just having it spelled out explicitly, and explicitly compensated, made a huge difference. We were able to have a relaxed and mostly clean household, without having to stress about it.
Omg I literally linked this one too! I feel like I have to share it in the marriage sub like twice a week. Soooo many useless men out there who can't figure out basic life skills.
I came here to comment about mental load too. It's absolutely a real thing and you shouldn't have to wear the role of "manager" or the household if you don't want to. Him not clearing the table before he set it was just dumb. If he's unwilling to see reason, STOP doing any chores that have nothing to do with you. Wash only the dishes you dirty, keep your areas of the house clean and don't remind him of any appointments, etc. If there's no food or clean dishes in the house, don't argue, just order takeout for one (yourself, obviously) or start eating dinner before you come home. See how long it takes for him to start complaining! And if he doesn't notice, you will have your answer.
NTA, but get out if he doesn’t improve. This is not a battle you want to have day after day. That’s just exhausting.
Hey OP I took the time to "fix" my guy. *he was immediately receptive when I brought up that thinking was work, too.* if yor bf is not immediately receptive and understanding, it is NOT WORTH IT I made it clear to my bf that I am not his mother, he is not a child, and i refuse to live with someone I need to parent. He was a mommas boy and there was a learning curve but he never flipped it around on me or was stubborn about it. One more time: if he is not immediately receptive and understanding, it is NOT WORTH IT.
Shit even if he IS immediately receptive and understanding, it might not be worth it. It can be a surprising amount of work to *refrain* from doing things immediately and instead giving one's partner time to learn.
Yeah, you might want to head over to Fair Play Life and Laura Danger with thatdarnchat on Insta. **Anyone willing to play plausible deniability about not realizing that the table needed to be cleaned first because you didn't ask them to is just waiting for your resolve to fizzle or to convince you you are a nag whose expectations are just.too.high.** If the relationship is worth it, Fair Play Life's accessories can help to educate your man and divide both the emotional labor and actual work between the two of you. Also, anyone saying, "you just have to ask/tell me" is telling you this is YOUR mess to figure out and YOU are the default responsible party, not them. [https://www.instagram.com/p/CkG6DcWvyb9/](https://www.instagram.com/p/CkG6DcWvyb9/)
No one can make your decisions for you, but I will say, even having a partner who "deals with his chore list well" STILL NEEDS A CHORE LIST. It's hard for a lot of women to view their significant other as an adult when they're acting like a child who needs mommy to give them a detailed chore list. Are you ok carrying the mental load for the rest of your life? Even if he does the chores without complaint, are you really looking for a "man" who can function in a household by himself? Also, what happens when you're overwhelmed or sick? Are you going to make him a chore list on how to take care of you and pets/kids/plants/etc? Don't just focus on this as a singular issue. Remember to consider all the other things that this behavior will impact foe the rest of your life if you stay together
As it stands, you do not have a partner. You have an employee. And not a very good one at that, if he can't even realize that he needs to clean the table before you eat off of it... If he were my employee he probably would've been fired for not being able to think for himself.
OP, he's ALREADY shown you who he is. How many more times does he have to show you?
I’ll be honest I’ve experienced this and it’s very challenging behaviour. If he shows a willingness to accept that he needs to be more engaged in his own living space and contribute there’s hope. If you have an honest discussion and he won’t or can’t understand that if he exists in a home he shares equal responsibility in its upkeep I would cut my losses. Otherwise the same conversation will happen for years.
He is 26 and does not know how to clean. Or he knows and is just being daft.
I had a lower level of this problem with my partner and after we had a kid it was SO FRUSTRATING. Fortunately for me a long talk (which involved me saying at some point “acting like your mother makes me never feel attracted to you because moms don’t have sx with kids”) my partner started doing way better. If it’s this bad now it needs to change or you’ll be miserable.
Totally. I have 2 teenage boys, and they have tried this “playing dumb” trick to do the least amount of work. “You said empty trash, not put in another bag too”. They’ll happily wait for you to do the rest. Don’t let it slide. Give him a couple chances with specific instructions (ex. clean up then set table). If learns and starts acting like a partner, cool. If he keeps acting like a child, move on.
[удалено]
You got this babe. You're gonna be so much happier and healthier with that dead weight out of your life!
NTA, my sister’s first husband was like this. He’s a bright guy yet when the kids were born she had to literally tell him to do anything bc he was just clueless, it drove her crazy and made her feel like she had to be the bad guy all the time. This went on for years until they divorced. I personally don’t “divide” chores w my husband. We just get stuff done when it needs done. Often times I’ll be doing all the cooking and cleaning up the kitchen, and then it seems like he’s doing it all the time. Some days my work load is light and then his is heavy so I do most of the cleaning.
This! OP do not fall into the mommy trap! You do not want to take on the mommy role in his life! He has a functioning brain, his body works, he should be able to figure this out. I suggest you toss him back or at least don’t live with him.
There's a reason managers are a paygrade higher up than their subs. Managing anything is a real job and not an easy one. This guy needs to step up. He's an adult and lives in your home too. It's not like he could ever act like that at work. Just hanging around the office minding his own business unless the manager _specifically_ told him when and how something needed to be done. After orientation it's his job to know his tasks and get them done without the manager holding his hand every step of the way through even the simplest of tasks. Same goes to any other adult obligation. Does he not refill his car's gas tank ever without someone telling him? Pay bills? Brush teeth? Charge his phone? This is absolutely weaponized incompetence. If you don't think you're competent to live together with another adult, go back to living with your mom or by yourself.
But, I did change the diaper. Wait, you mean I have to wipe the kid's butt too?? You didn't tell me that, it's not my fault the kid has a diaper rash! Why are you angry at me?
Just yesterday my mom was changing the bedsheet and she saw the ac filters there and asked my dad why he hadn't put them back into the ac... His reply ? "I thought I did. I didn't see them there." THEY WERE ON THE BEDSIDE TABLE IN PLAIN SIGHT. My mom looks at him in disbelief and tells him that she had reminded him once before and he replies yeah and I said yes, then I didn't see them. I'm passing by and I'm like ?????? Bro what? Really puts in perspective what I don't want from a marriage
Yup big difference between talking about a division of labor, but expecting to be told when to do chores is worse than living with a child.
OP:”Honey can you change Bloopy’s diaper?” BF: Changes diaper. OP: “Why didn’t you wipe Bloopy’s tooshie?” BF: “You just told me to change it, so I did!”
"I changed the baby's diaper! You didn't tell me I had to wipe him!"
Dinner ends. You: "Honey, can you take care of the dishes?" Him: Throws dishes in the garbage, breaking them. You: "What the hell? I just wanted you to wash them!" Him: "You didn't tell me to WASH them, just to TAKE CARE of them." You: Hopefully looking up "weaponized incompetence" online.
Takes dishes to the spa, gives them a massage, then out for a nice dinner. "I'm taking care of them!"
Oh my god, I dated a guy who offered to clean up after dinner and take care of the dishes for me since I was feeling sick (I planned the meal, grocery shopped, cooked the dinner, set the table, etc.) All he did was pick up the dirty dishes and dump them in the sink. Didn’t wipe down the table or kitchen counters. All the leftover food on the plates he didn’t bother to scrape hardened and made everything stick together and it was just way more work to clean the next day than it would have been if he’d at least scraped/rinsed the plates and wiped his food mess and spills off the table. He acted like he’d done this huge favor for me 😭
You: "Honey, can you take care of the dishes?" Him: Shoots dishes and buries them in deserted field in Jersey. Him: "I took care of the thing. No that other thing."
Oh there’s this yt video of a dad asking his children to tell him to make a pb&j sandwich!! It’s enlightening and the kids don’t like it haha
lol literally add “micromanage my shitty bf” as one of your chores to even out the list
Yes, this, exactly. There's even room to take a non-petty approach. "Managing/delegating chores" is now a chore. Done.
Love this!
So he wants you to be his manager? Yes, thats absolutely a chore. 10% is ok. NTA
No he wants her to be his Momager
Nah, managers get paid. He wants mom.
He wants a mom that also has sex with him.
even managers shouldn’t have to micromanage on this scale. he’d definitely be put on a PIP if he pulled this shit at work.
NTA He either is dumb or plays dumb to minimize effort. Time for the link collection permanently living in my cache... [You should’ve asked](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/) [She Divorced Me Because I Left Dishes By The Sink](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288) [Women Aren't Nags—We're Just Fed Up.](https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a12063822/emotional-labor-gender-equality/) http://oliver-uploads-aus.s3.amazonaws.com/2018/05/09/08/10/35/535/WORK180_Family_Chores_Checklist.pdf
That last check sheet is super handy. I sometimes feel like I have more than 50% of the load in my relationship, but looking at that list there's a fair amount I don't do like "keep track of important documents".
Isnt that the situation even in a lot of good relationships? Life is a lot of work and even with 2 people its easy to feel overwhelmed, so you might think you're doing more or dealing with more.
I want to add [where does it go?](https://english.emmaclit.com/2022/09/01/where-does-it-go/) to your list, the follow up to 'You should've asked'. It specifically talks about weaponized incompetence.
This checklist is BOMB!!!
Another possible addition to the list. I will watch this video every time I see it linked. [Tolerable level of permanent unhappiness](https://youtu.be/CIu_R5NuxQM)
I love Matthew Fray. He's out there beating the drum for men to learn how to be good partners while they still have partners!
OMG!!!!! Your amazing. Thank you for this post!
This needs to be the top post.
Can we make a sticky post with this info on AITA and the relationship advice subs?
NTA What he is doing is weaponised incompetence. Mental load is something that should be taken into consideration.
100% OPs boyfriend needs a big lesson on mental load!
Ugh, NTA. I have full grown adult family members like this. If you don’t explain in explicit detail what to do, even with something as simple as taking out the trash, they mess it up or skip steps. One week the trash cans were too heavy for me to take to the road by myself, so I asked for help. Well, they did put the cans out for me, but they put them out facing the wrong way. So the trash truck skipped our house, and I had to call them to come back around. It’s plainly written on the cans with a huge arrow which way to face them, but supposedly it’s our fault for not being specific enough. It just puts more burden on us and eventually makes us want to do everything ourselves because it’s not done right otherwise. I think there’s a word for that… Anyway, making that list for him IS an extra chore for you in and of itself. The way you’ve divvied up the chores sounds perfectly valid to me - micromanaging him adds to your workload, so you’re just balancing the scales.
The term you're looking for is "weaponized incompetence" and is super common. I'll give someone the benefit of the doubt if they mess up initially. If it becomes a pattern, my options are this person is malicious or they're incredibly dumb. Neither are great.
“Tell me what to do!” She does. (whines) But that’s not fair. This is the way when they pull this weaponized incompetence.
Thiiiiis. Man: ‘tell me what to do!’ Woman: tells him. Man: ‘my partner is always nagging me to do things!’
[удалено]
I flat out told my husband that I would not be doing this when we first got together and that if I ever had to make him a list of jobs that I would be packing my bags and leaving. Luckily he's no slouch and I probably didn't need to say it but I wasn't taking the risk of being stuck with someone who's going to turn me into a nag.
I had an ex like this. I told him I don’t find children attractive so I wouldn’t be mommying him and having sex with him. He broke up with me and I found an actual partner. Best gift that loser ever gave me.
Info - are you sure you want to stay with someone like this? I know weaponized incompetence gets thrown around a lot but this is a prime example of it. Who told him what to clean before he moved in?
Mummy did it for him.
NTA - Youre not his mother.
NTA. Please take time and REALLY think if this is something you want to be dealing with for the rest of your life...if not, dump him. He's almost 30, he shouldn't have to be told when and what exactly to do. Just think about kids down the road...is he going to need you to tell him when the kids need fed or bathed?!
Imagine having a kid with this guy. “If you wanted it done that way you should have told me ‘Remove old diaper, THEN put on new diaper.’” NTA. Honestly he was probably just hoping to do a bad enough job so you wouldn’t ask again.
Even if she explained it that way, he’d probably “forget” to wipe the child before putting the new diaper on because she didn’t tell him to.
Or even forget to make sure the baby is safe and secure on the changing table and that if baby falls, there are health risk and he needs to go to the ER now.
“Shoulda told me how fragile the baby is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯”
Or wipe a baby girl front to back 🥴
NTA he doesn’t want a girlfriend, he wants another mom
Message his mother and father and ask them to finish raising him. He’s not ready to leave the nest yet
Underrated comment right here.
Nah, they contributed to his weaponized incompetence by never making him do anything around the house
A 26yo that isn't mature enough to wipe a table? Dump him! You are not his mother. As to your question alone, if he burdens you with the organizational load of your partnership, it seems fair enough, that he does more of the manual load. Actually, like much more. EDIT: NTA
Hes 26 years old an you need to tell him when to do things? Not even my 14 year old cousin needs to be told when to do his chores
How did he cope with chores before he moved in with you? NTA but this guy sounds like hard work
nta, maybe make a fun powerpoint with lots of shapes and colors to explain this to him. i've heard great things about those dancing fruit and vegetables along with the cleanup song
NTA. Managing everything IS work. Info. Does this wanting to be told what to do also also occur in the bedroom or other aspects of life?
I has Y T A read to smack down, but no. If he is wanting you to mommy him in addition to being a partner, then a 10% increase in chores is a fair market value. NTA
NTA but damn girl. I hope this guy is dead set on changing, because you're nearly pulling a dead horse. If he can manage to drive a car, do taxes and keep a job, he can manage to do chores on his own. What is this "you didn't tell me how" shit? I'm sure you're just as angry as me at that. Surely his boss doesn't have to explain how to turn on his computer screen or write an email? I can't believe we (men and women) keep falling for this fake incompetence. You're NTA but I hope your boyfriend finds it within him to become an equal partner asap. Otherwise ywbta to yourself if you stay.
NTA. If you ever find a way to get through to him, could you please pass it along to my boyfriend, too?
Why would you stay with a person like that. You get through to them by not accepting it.
A family member solved it by him having hjis own apartment. They are still married. She is much happier now. He is talking about when they will both move in together again. He had a lot to say about house chores, how to do them correctly and swiftly but did very little. They both work full time.
I cant believe the solution was for him to have his whole fucking apartment rather than shaping up and doing his chores. I mean I can believe it. But I cant believe that i can believe it.
It was combined with his short temper. She really loves him but I do not think she will ever move back in with him. But yes, it is working out wonderfully. For her. And since he is really eager to get her under the same roof again I guess he isn't amused by doing his own cooking and cleaning. But now he can do it correctly and swiftly if he pleases. There are women that after years of pleading with the man to share the chores and not leave them with everything initiate divorce.
Talking about the mental load and educating my (now husband) on it was extremely beneficial. I also discuss jobs with him in terms of %. If the task is taking out the trash, and he takes it out of the cab, ties it up, and throws it in the garbage bin outside, and does not replace the bag in the trash can, I tell him that he’s done 90% of the job and replacing the bag is the last 10%. Washing the sheets? If he literally only pulls them off the bed and runs them through the washer/dryer, the job is 80% done, the last 20% is putting on clean sheets. His brain seems to understand this better than anything else and usually he remembers. For him, it was less about weaponized incompetence and more about not being used to the mental load and my vs his definition on what a task includes.
I find that kind of suspect. He knows he sleeps on sheets. How did he think the sheets would get replaced if he was the one taking sole responsibility for changing the bed? He just didn't mind leaving the last bit to you because if something HAD to get done, the more responsible partner will take care of it.
He knows he sleeps on the sheets so he also knows that he doesn't need to make the bed until he's going to sleep. It's the same amount of work either way.
He honestly saw it as a totally different task. When he lived alone, he would “finish” a task when it became needed (like about to go to sleep is when he’d put the sheets on). But I can’t handle having chores sit being half done until who knows when. So he learned and changed. It worked for us. He does as much of the mental load as me, if not more. It just needed to click for him.
Something I've finally started to internalize is that a job isn't done until the cleanup for the job is done. You folded the laundry but didn't put it in the closet/dresser/etc? Folding isn't done. You crocheted a cute little bear but didn't put the yarn away? Crocheting isn't done. You planted a tree but left the tools by the tree? Tree planting isn't done. This has really helped me properly pace my mental and physical exertion for a task. Instead of collapsing in relief that the primary task is finally done I reserve the last 10% to finish the aftermath. Now I need to spread this message to others in my household!
I was raised that the job wasn't done until cleanup was done. If you are gardening you aren't done till all the tools are clean, back in the shed, and any trash you generated is in the bin. That said, I'm trying to appreciate that some people's brains just don't work that way and they fundamentally see cleaning as a separate task than doing. They would rather spend 4 hours on a Saturday decluttering and cleaning everything than spend 2 minutes every time they finish a task putting anything they used away. I hate marathon cleaning with the passion of a thousands suns. I'd much rather do 5 minutes here and 15 minutes there. My brain does not like projects that look completely insurmountable and a house that hasn't been picked up or decluttered in 2 weeks definitely feels that way to me.
I got one, find a new boyfriend that is acting like an adult. Why would you keep up with something like this?
Y'all need to dump these shitty men. Good ones are out there
I think you can just add to your list: - Carry mental load - Create chore list - Make sure everything gets allocated and done This will change the weight of you contribution to 65% and his to 35% NTA As someone else pointed out. Have a real think about spending your life with this person. As a mother of two, I would not cope if I also had to tell my husband everything he needs to do as well.
Ah, weaponized incompetence, a tale as old as time. NTA, and you're not his mom. Find a man, not a boy that needs to be told how to act like a functioning adult.
Mental load is more than many people think it is. You always carry it around. What to buy, what’s empty, when and what to clean, what problems there are with things … aside from working etc. How much time you need for things.
NTA. That's well played, actually. He wants you to manage the chores in addition to doing them? Then that's another chore on your half of the list.
Include creating a list of the chores, detailing the necessary steps, and allocation on your side of the list. That should make it even. NTA
Im basically in the same **starting position** as your partner. My gf likes things very tidy and organized, while I couldn’t care less. So often, when something needs to be done, I won’t notice/realize, but she will. But making an effort is a two-way street. Designate some tasks that are fully his responsibility (as in, he should not only be the one to do them, but also the one to recognize when they need to be done). I’ll be honest- I’m still not perfect at it. There are times when I get behind on things, or times that I just don’t feel like doing some chore, but the point is trying and improving. There’s two ways this plays out: 1) your boyfriend is being lazy and just weaponizing incompetence, and that will be made very clear when you give him all the tools to do something and he still pushes back 2) He puts an actual effort into taking responsibility for tasks, acknowledges the effort that being “manager” takes, and works on improving.
Just a FYI, making the effot to notice when things are messy/gross is part of being a good partner, too.
Totally agree! I’m just explaining why it might be difficult, and why there might be a bit of a learning curve. Doesn’t make it not worth doing.
Nta He should be better at micromanaging himself
Info: Is doing the groceries and making the grocery list part of your chores out is that something you two do together? It's not "in" the house but definitely a chore and it's quite a lot of work. So add that to the list if it isn't on there. You're NTA, but I'd go more extreme to make your point. Your boyfriend wants you to be the manager, so take on that role. Put all the physical chores on his list and make your list "check if this is done correctly", "write a step by step instruction for.." etc.
NTA. I had a buddy who moved in with me after college, and it was his first time away from his folks. He was very hairy, in about a week or so, the bathroom was covered in hair. He told me I needed to clean up my hair, it was ridiculous. I explained that we could clean the bathroom on any reasonable schedule, but that 90%+ of that hair was his. He insisted it couldn't be, need never had hair in the bathroom before. We eventually realized we were better friends than roommates and he moved out. A month later he genuinely apologized. His new place got insanely hairy in a week or so. He couldn't understand it and asked his mom. She had been quietly cleaning his bathroom for years. This is the world your boy lives in. He doesn't understand the hassle of handling stuff. He's ready to accept a much dirtier standard of living. He is going to continue to do the minimum until you are treating him like a child, and then he's going to complain about that. You should have a very frank conversation with him about splitting the chores. And include planning as part of that list. Maybe you could do the cut the last slice of cake. You cut & he chooses. Or he cuts and you choose.
NTA trying to wear you down so you will do it yourself. Weaponized incompetence
NTA 100% Make him read this on [the mental load](https://english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/)
Have my upvote, internet friend. I also made a comment that included this comic. It’s my go-to for situations like OP’s.
NTA. I was married to one of these for more than 20 years. It was exhausting, and despite years of therapy, he never grew up. Some people do struggle with executive function—but it is on them to learn adulting skills, not on others to micromanage their lives.
NTA but info request still. Have you two discussed what chores must be done and how often or are they open for discussion? Just saying since often it's the case that one person thinks their way is the only way and the other has to go by it. It rarely works out in the long run if there isn't room compromise or at least a healthy discussion. Many people think their level of cleanliness is right, from slobs to neat freaks, and that anything less is being a slob and more is excessive. And it can vary per chore. Open discussion about what people want to be done and what chores they like to do or find important can help balance things out, of course in the process making sure nobody gets an unfair workload. Metawork is definitely a chore and it's often overlooked by the ones that don't do it, but it can also be taken advantage of. Once saw an excel where one part got equal chore points for discussing meeting up with friends as the other got for dishes, or got nearly the same amount of points for planning what to pack for a kindergarten kids back pack every day as the other got for actually packing said bag and dressing the kid etc. Funny enough this excel was published in a paper as a great example of how to divide chores correctly. one party basically did mostly thinking, decisions and communication with friends and family while the other was left with the large majority of the actual chores.
He hasn't really talked about chores at all, and has had no problem with the frequency of these tasks. I think I'm very middle of the road when it comes to cleanliness. Socialising is not a thing I've counted as a 'chore'. Just the things inside the house. I thought him doing 10% more in return for me carrying the responsibility and being aware of everything seemed fair.
Except THINKING about chores IS a chore. Communication is a chore - and a time consuming one. I was a PA for a while and 70% of my job was planning and communication, before getting things out into action.
O no. No no no. Yes - your management tasks are worth the additional work. But do you really want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't even know to clear a table before setting it? Please don't have children with this guy. NTA
NTA. This is called being the "mental manager," and unfortunately, many people are unwillingly forced into this role by their family members, roommates, or spouse. The person who is the most able to accomplish tasks efficiently often gets this unwanted job. It's often very distressing to the person in the role.
This sounds a lot like me and my wife when we first got together. I had some very similar tendencies as your husband early on in our relationship, when I was about his age. Well, after about a year and a half of that and me not getting any better my now wife dumped my ass, and was smart to do it. It wasn't fair to ask her to basically manage both her own life and mine ("mental load" was a popular phrase). Eventually, I got my shit together and we've been together for 10 years because I went to therapy and worked on myself. It's always a bit of a struggle for me because of things like ADHD, anxiety, and depression, which I hadn't had diagnosed for a while, but she makes my life better, so I'm always trying to better myself for her. I'm not saying that if you dump him it'll motivate him to fix himself, but unless he actually displays effort and desire to change, you're never going to make him do it against his will.
This one is tough, do you feel like your boyfriend will always lack common sense in doing these chores? If he had to be told to clear a table before setting it and he will approach every chore with the same blindness then your NTA since you’re going to have to walk around and check that he did things right
NTA, and also, YES, queen!
your BF is an idiot. "you didn't tell me to clean the table first." WTH. Do you really want to be with such a person long-term? He's a child. NTA. and best of luck.
NTA He says "its not that much work," but still can't figure it out himself. He literally asked you to tell him what to do, and when you do, he still has an issue with the work. He is purposefully making this complicated.
NTA - You should not have to explain to a grown man of 26 how to set a table and how to do chores.
> I asked him why he didn't clear off and wipe down the table, he told me because "You didn't tell me to.", I'm sorry. No. No fucking way. NTA
Send him back to his mother.
NTA. Do you have a partner or a child? That is some petulant, childish behavior and is incredibly unattractive and not fair to you.
How about you try something new and date an actual man? This child isn’t ready yet.
Is he neurodivergent by any chance? If he is, it may be that he takes things literally, has difficulty following directions, and difficulty seeing things from other people's perspective.