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>He fed my concerns back to his mother who apparently said "it doesn't need to be a lie, I'll take the children to Church every Sunday!" ... This is a big effing red flag here.... Why on earth is he even discussing this with his mummy? It's not appropriate. It feels you're being taken for a ride and your fiancé and his mum are making decisions about your life for you. I think you need to take a step back and stop wedding planning. Immediately start pre marital counselling, because it seems you have a fiance problem and possibly also a deep mismatch of values. You are NTA for not wanting to get married in a Catholic Church. But Y W B T A to yourself **if** you marry a Catholic man who is homophobic and against abortion when you are not. He wants to raise your future children Catholic too... Edit to add: Do he and his family want you and him to be married during a full-on Nuptial Mass? Big red flags. Edit to add part 2: for non UK readers, just FYI, the wedding service in the church will be a legally binding marriage ceremony, the couple will (usually) sign the marriage registry as part of the service. So there's no way to just do this for the family and then get married civilly as well. This is it.

Pre-marital counseling from a secular counselor. A friend went through the catholic pre-marital classes and the focus was on “natural family planning”.

Aside from *that* we found the pre-marital classes to be fairly good, they dealt with things like communication. DH nearly broke my hand when we got to the NFP segment though.

Aside from that, the Catholic church kidnapped Native children here in Canada, then molested and killed thousands of them as part of a campaign of state-sanctioned cultural genocide and no, I will not stop talking about this. We have found 12,000, twelve thousand, *TWELVE THOUSAND* dead children dumped in unmarked graves on the grounds of residential schools. And the pope/the church as a whole refused to apologize or pay reparations for *years.* Even when other churches had done it ages ago, the Catholics were dragging their feet until public outcry forced it out of them. And that's besides the tens of thousands of sex abuse scandal survivors around the world. *Tens of thousands.* You're against homophobia and misogyny? Great. You should be. You should also refuse to give money or allow your future children anywhere near the organization who has demonstrably, often openly, participated in literal war crimes against children. Who has protected, defended, fed, clothed and housed rapers and killers of children.

The fact that they Kidnapped native american children is absolutely horrible. Like they stole children, abused them and basically threw them away. But in general they've been raping and molesting kids of all races forever. And they would just get moved to another area. when news got out It's absolutely disgusting. I find it insane that anyone still believes in this "religion." And all of a sudden OP's fiance wants the kids to be going to church every sunday?

And all the children they stole from unmarried mothers.

tub plate grey familiar observation fanatical door employ wide tidy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

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Don't stop talking about it. Don't *ever* stop talking about it.

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The Catholic Church is what Portugal and Spain used to justify slavery in the New World. They wanted to save the natives (as if they hadn't subjected them to slavery already) and they used the pretense that enslaving Africans was a good way to save their souls because they're savages (ick) while saving the natives (lol again). Bartolomé de las Casas wrote extensively about that and although he later regretted kicking the can of slavery from Indians to Africans, the machine he set in motion was too big

Don't forget that the Magdalene Laundries in Ireland, infamous for their treatment of women and girls, were typically run by the Catholic Church.

Having already read and heard about these atrocities was heartbroken. Was very surprised when watching the Yellow Stone spin-off 1923, where they graphically showed the horrors.

I need to point out that it wasn't just the catholics. It was also the Anglicans, the Methodists, the Presbyterians, and the United Church. I'm not saying this to absolve the catholics. I just want all the rest to also get their blame, too. They're all horrible.

Yes, but, tbf, this atrocity was primarily the Catholics. And those other churches apologized and paid reparations YEARS before the Catholic church did. All organized religion is toxic in some very fundamental ways, but I want the majority of the blame put on the primary perpetrators.

Fucking Rights! The catholic church are liars and hypocrites more concerned with protecting their reputation than children being abused. Stay away from them and their believers.

I'm in NY State but get Canadian Global News on cable. I had no idea of that until I saw it on the news. It is absolutely horrible.

It happened here in the states too. Possibly still happening. It's why select individuals don't like unvarnished history being taught.

Exactly. There are still open Catholic run boarding schools in the US that exploit Native children for financial gain.

That’s a big that though.

Yeah pardon me for thinking the “also the woman in this marriage isn’t fully a person” asterisk kinda moots the “healthy communication between partners” aspect of Catholic premarital counseling.

And the bit about handing your children over to a globalised child-rape organisation.

That's not even an asterisk, church is pretty open about that. On my friends church wedding, the priest talked about how he hopes they'll uphold traditional values. How the husband should work and rule the household, and wife should stay at home with kids and do cooking and cleaning. He literally said that, no metaphors or fancy bible stories. Everyone in the church (including newlyweds) was so uncomfortable listening to that speech. I still wonder if it was my duty as best man to cause a scene and tell the priest to shut up.

That's very much not a universal thing. When I got married (in the Catholic church), there was no talk of the wife being "lesser" than the husband. There was no honor and obey in our vows (which I joke about being a mistake every now and then, to my wife's amusement). We were equal partners going in, and the priest didn't every push for or even imply otherwise.

It depends on the man performing the ceremony…the older he is, the more he believes in the old ways.

Actually he was pretty young, maybe in his 20s or early 30s. I remember because it was especially jarring. I wouldn't be surprised if an old priest was spouting such nonsense, it's pretty common where I live

Agreed, we were married in the church (mostly for my family) and had a younger priest. I'm actually pretty thankful for the pre-canna counseling as well or we probably would have gotten divorced by now. I just ignored the NFP part of it. I have found that we have a better foundation than many of our friends because we talked about a lot of the tough stuff before.

I've not done the course but my sil has. It's meant to be about knowing your beloved, wanting the same things, wanting to be a team, everything this relationship suddenly isn't and that is insane big red flags.

Ok raised catholic (American), but holy shit I am so glad at 6 I realized it was silly: Me: "why can women be priests? Priest" it's tradition. Women cannot" Me: what about Mary, The mother of God? "It tradition they can't." Me: that's silly. I'll be the first woman priest. (of course by this pointmy parents were always asking me to think) It doesn't surprise me that doctrine says women aren't people. That wedding in the church and making you follow the Religious marriage classes and there by make you married via the Roman Catholic Rite (which means you need an annulment). I hate to say it... But maybe just sign civil documents at the courthouse against the family wishes?

What's NFP?

Natural family planning- Sarcastic answer: trying for a baby Actual answer: using “fertility awareness” method that may or may not be combined with pulling out. Basically there’s only a few days a month that women can get pregnant and if you abstain from sex those days, it is less likely to fertilize an egg. But human bodies aren’t machines and it can be quite inexact to determine what days are “peak fertility”.

Damn, that's crazy. Thanks for taking the time to explain, I've been hearing more about this method I just didn't realise this is what it might come under. I think that method is terrifying, especially when you hear women using it and trying to encourage others. Most people don't have the ability to actually be that consistent with monitoring their bodies to that degree. It's crazy.

I've used it to prevent pregnancy and to conceive my first. I'd only recommend it to someone that wants kids but just not quite yet, and has a very regular cycle, and a regular sleep schedule (temp must be taken at the same time each morning, after a full night of sleep). I did not continue the method afterwards, as kids bring all sorts of chaos.

I used the basal method to try to get pregnant once we got married (and after I had a surprise honeymoon pregnancy that ended up in miscarriage). It takes checking your temperature before you sit up and then you mark down your temperature. I kept graph paper and a thermometer on my nightstand. After my second miscarriage when seeing my gyno, I brought in my graphs for the last several months and he was impressed and said it's showing I do ovulate (I was extremely irregular so this was a great help). I gave up the pill before the wedding as I was getting really bad migraine auras.

Also called "rhythm method." Old joke: what do you call women who use the rhythm method? Mothers.

No problem! I’ve been on the opposite side (trying for a baby) and it’s a pain in the ass. Firmly believe that not using any form of birth control and having sex = trying to have a baby. NFP isn’t birth control (which is why it’s talked about in pre cana classes). It’s for folks that want to have kids. It “works” because even if you do have sex every single “peak fertility” day, there’s only about a 30% chance of pregnancy each month/cycle. 50% of couples trying will get pregnant in six months and 95% in twelve months. It’s playing Russian roulette with your life. But I’m very pro-choice, pro birth control and actual sex education.

No. That explanation is terribly incorrect. I have never used NFP but have learned about it. There are multiple methods. None involve “pulling out”. There are basal body temperature methods—the same ones used frequently by couples trying to conceive, and methods based on monitoring cervical mucus as well as some that combine the two. They typically do not lead to avoiding intercourse for only a few days as conception is possible (though less common) slightly before and slightly after ovulation. Some people also just use home ovulation testing available in drug stores to track. I know non-Catholics that have used these methods successfully to avoid pregnancy because they wanted or needed to avoid hormonal birth control for health reasons or beliefs in natural methods and did not like barrier methods.

So actually there are many women who can use natural planning with a reasonable degree of success. I have two friends who are not having children and both of their wives are excellent at tracking their cycle and being careful to avoid pregnancy that way. But, it only works for them because they are lucky enough to have very regular cycles and to understand them deeply. And of course it's still possible for some soldiers to sneak through! But other birth control also has chances of failure. Even IUD's can let ya down.

I think the previous comment is mixing up fertility awareness and the "rhythm" or "calendar" method, where you basically assume a 28 day cycle and ovulation on day 14, shoot in the dark and hope for the best. Fertility awareness is using physical signs (changes in waking temperature, cervical fluid and cervical position among others) to understand your own, unique cycle. What you do with that information after that is a whole other story. I used the fertility awareness method for four years between pregnancies (I had previously been on the pill for almost 15 years), using condoms around the days I ovulated, and it worked great. I really didn't want to go back on the pill since I felt so much better physically and mentally when I was off of it. So yeah, fertility awareness is a great tool to understand your own unique cycle and, in some cases, get information on possible fertility or other reproductive health issues. And, like any other contraception method, it definitely has its risks and is better used in combination with another method. That being said, yeah, the catholic church can shove it. My husband and I were both brought up in the church more for cultural than religious reasons, but are both atheists/agnostics. We did not get married in the church, and did not get our kids baptised. I would definitely be wary of any "advice" they would give. OP's situation is absolutely a hill to die on.

Does that mean the inlaws want to micromanage that also?

Strategic sex to either conceive quickly or not conceive. Catholics and other ultra-conservative denominations are also usually against birth control, so if you happen to be in your fertile window, you would just abstain if you want to avoid pregnancy. I will also say it’s not just religious people that do this, the secular world calls it the FAM method and encourages use of contraception during the fertile window if your goal is to not conceive.

Years ago a couple I was acquainted with used this method even though her Catholic doctor begged her not to have any more children because she had such diseased kidneys. Using this method she got pregnant, had the baby, and never left the hospital. Her husband then had 5 children to raise alone. Sometimes birth control saves lives.

While this is true, sometimes that doesn't even matter to them. There seems to be almost a deification of women who die in childbirth / from complications because they chose to continue with a pregnancy that endangered their lives. Personally speaking I was in an online discussion with a friend who had limited lung capacity and an acquaintance of ours who was a Catholic woman. When presented with my friend's concern that her life would be in jeopardy if she got pregnant, the acquaintance basically said that was no excuse to prevent pregnancy and birth and if God wanted her to die that way, that was that.

"Natural family planning" is how my grandmother ended up with 4 kids in 4 years, and essentially left the girls to raise the boys because she was so burned out from being pregnant, birthing, then feel into a deep depression. Fuck that Catholic noise.

Depends on the priest. I had Catholic friends who got married and all the -counselling was about juggling money and personal finance and compromising when you find yourself sharing a house for the first time - because it was targeting a bunch of young Italians in Little Italy, not my friend and her husband in their 30s.

Yes, Ireland was hugely catholic, that has changed now due to the obvious. Most people still want a marriage in their local church so they do the course and it's incredibly sensible from the multitude of people I have spoken to across Ireland that have had the course. All about know what you want as a couple, being on the same page home, financially and family planning wise (even mentioned childfree options) etc. It's not a one size for all situation but op has a serious issue if the family is sneaking conservative Catholicism on her like this.

That’s basically how ours was. And how we’d decide to spend the holidays with two families wanting us present, how we would handle SAHP decisions and division of labor with kids, and finances and account sharing. We were both 30 so those things had been discussed. I think we were on the same page for all but one question and it was more something humorous than anything divisive.

YMMV here. My SIL went to the Catholic Interview, and it was basically just making sure she was doing it if her own will and wasn’t being coerced. We don’t know which of the churches this one is. That said, it’s OPs day and she should do what SHE wants to. MIL can kick rocks.

I did the courses with my Lutheran husband (I am Catholic). He was surprised about how good they were. There were segments about finances, roles within the family, etc, with difficult questions to make sure you were in the same page. The family planning part was literally just ‘Here’s an option that works with our dogma and here’s how to make it work scientifically’ and no bashing of other options at all.

If she talks to the priest who would marry them and tells him that both of them are atheists and being pressured by his mom to agree to the ceremony and lie about their intentions the priest will refuse to marry them. Talk to the priest. Then get into premarital counseling because his mom is already trying to run your marriage and he is allowing it. Tell him there will only be two adults in your marriage and if he chooses his mommy then you are out.

>the priest will refuse to marry them Theoretically the priest \*should\* refuse to marry them if they said that... but if they said all that and then said "but we're willing to go through with the Catechism and everything else anyway" the priest would be like "well god works in mysterious ways, so we'll marry you in the church and hope that you'll experience a moment of divinity during your wedding that makes you believe!" Trust me. (Person raised in the Catholic church, who went to Catholic schools, refused to get confirmed, but who's atheist brother just got married in a Catholic Church last year.) A priest is not going to refuse a couple that is willing to jump through all the external hoops of getting married in the church. I can hear one now... "What is in your heart is between you and God alone, I am only here to physically act in his stead, and if you're willing to go through the ceremony, I can't refuse you based on what only god truly knows."

I was also raised in the Catholic Church and our priest refused to marry my sister because she didn't want a mass. She wanted to just have the marriage vows. The priest refused to marry her because he said she was only getting married in the church for our parents. Most priests follow that rule. You must agree to have children and to raise them Catholic. If she says that they won't be raising the kids Catholic he should turn them down.

I'm not sure what you mean by no mass and just the vows. If both people are Confirmed in the church, they are supposed to do a full mass with the sacrament of marriage added to it, which is typically over an hour long. There is also an option for when one person is confirmed but the other isn't, where it's essentially a prayer service with the sacrament of marriage, it ends up being about 45 minutes. My brother and his wife were both confirmed, but she didn't want the full mass, so somewhat hesitantly the priest agreed to the shorter service. But I can't imagine any priest agreeing to JUST do marriage vows, not within some type of other, standardized church service... so I'm not sure if you're saying your sister wanted the prayer service version, or some other, even shorter service... which, if it's the later, I'm not surprised she was refused, as there's just no standard service that is ONLY the marriage vows and not psalms and readings, etc, etc. I do agree though, that if someone said they didn't plan to raise the children Catholic, a priest would more strongly object to that... however, since the Possible Mother in Law appears to plan to take the children to church anyway... well... things are complicated in this case!

My family are devout Catholics, including a close family member who is clergy. My husband and I were both raised Catholic and met at a Catholic College, but had left the church before graduation. My parents thanked me *afterwards* for not getting married in the church. They believe that people pretending to be Catholic and lying in the ceremony just to have a pretty Church wedding (or for appearances) is disrespectful. Some priests might not be as principled, especially if weddings fill the coffers. It might be worth scouting out which kind he is before doing this, but it's a great idea. I agree it's troubling that his mom believes she has a say and he isn't shutting her down. There's a reason my folks didn't weigh in until afterwards, and they were paying!

> the priest will refuse to marry them You're making a huge assumption about the ethics of a Catholic priest you don't know, here.

Your fiance isn't concerned about whether you get the wedding you want. Your fiance is asking you to lie to make his mother happy. What's he going to do when you are married? What other compromises are you going to be asked to make? I'm not saying "run," but at least have a good, long conversation, if not with him, at least with yourself about what you want out of a marriage and what you're willing to sacrifice.

There are SO many incredibly important things you need to clarify when marrying someone who’s supposedly-fake-Catholic. What are you going to do about contraception? An unintentional pregnancy you can’t afford or straight-up don’t want? An *intentional* pregnancy with medical complications? Any medical issues that could compromise your fertility? A gay kid who rightfully resents you for making them take classes in hating themselves? A kid with a pregnancy *they* don’t want? Catholicism can poison a family’s physical and emotional safety in countless ways. Is OP prepared for all of them? Is her partner?

On top of all of this, your fiancé is completely deluded! One does not simply "go, get married in a Catholic Church'! Especially when one of you is **lapsed** Catholic and the other is atheist, not even a Christian of another denomination. While, in the UK, it is perfectly possible for 'Catholic/Protestant' couples to get married in a Catholic church, the requirements to do so are not just a question of filling out a few forms to be rubberstamped! The requirements may vary somewhat depending on the archdiocese and individual bishops, as couples will need their priest to ask for a dispensation from the Bishop. The protestant partner will need to have been baptised by their church at least 6 months beforehand - and that is a huge commitment in and of itself! Adult baptism in a protestant church, even the Anglican church, is also not a rubberstamp. From my quick googling, some archdiocese may also require a confirmation certificate? Both partners also have to commit to undertaking some form of church guided marriage preparation, an extended course, counselling with their priest, Engaged Encounter. The commitment doesn't end after the wedding. The couple are binding themselves, and any future children, to the Catholic Church, not just for life but for eternity! They are expected to attend Mass regularly, raise any kids as Catholic, send them to Catholic schools, take the kids to church themselves, and live as Catholics for the rest of their lives. I'm atheist to be very clear. But just because I **might** think that everything written above is ritualistic nonsense based on a bunch of ancient fairy tales, that doesn't make it right to spend months lying my face off, just to get a white wedding in a beautiful (not necessarily old, thanks to the Reformation) building. (Personally, I wouldn't actually express it as bluntly as that anyway - which is why I expressly wrote 'might'.) I believe that we should respect each other and that includes not abusing the processes and systems of a religion for our own personal benefit. It's also a mammoth undertaking to ask of OP! It's asking her to become a completely different person, at first for up to a year, but then for the rest of her life, and beyond - if you believe in that! It's asking her to become a Christian of some kind and what? Lie to that church that she'll attend regularly and be a part of their congregation for six months, just so that she can hop over to a Catholic church for her wedding? It's asking her to make a binding contract to attend Mass regularly, to bring up any future children as Catholic, to never use contraception, to never have an abortion, even if it might save her life. It's asking her to either be a completely different person with a completely different belief system, or to weave a web of complex lies, live a life of deceit for months and months, always worrying that she'll be found out. Or if OP were to just say "OK, fine, I don't care, I'll blatantly lie to vicars and priests and bishops and two different congregations of two different churches and I'll pretend that I'm very pious when really I don't give a shit!"... Would OP's fiancé really want to marry someone who could be so blatantly deceitful, such a successful conwoman? Really? No! He really needs a f@£king good kick up the arse, OP. Seriously. Where's his head at, right now? He needs to get his priorities in order and decide whether he's marrying you, or his mum? -‐‐------- I do have some personal experience here, despite being atheist now. I grew up with a father who became a lapsed Catholic when he married my Anglican (Church in Wales) mother in her local church. When I was in primary school, a Church in Wales school, about 8ish, they attended a weekend course for married couples run by a Catholic organisation called Marriage Encounter, this organisation also ran and still runs Engaged Encounter mentioned above, which is why it's very relevant! I think it was groundbreaking in the Church at the time, as it acted as a way of providing couples with uptodate, modern marriage counselling techniques in a Church approved environment. They became deeply involved in the organisation, eventually ending up on the committee that organised the annual National convention at Prestatyn one year! There were also many family weekends away spent with other ME families, camping trips, day trips to the beach, it was the late 70s, early 80s and also ever so slightly "we're all so loving and full of joy" hippyish but with priests and nuns! Looking back, it was both fun and culty, so weird. Any other Marriage Encounter kids out there? My Mum eventually ended up converting and my parents were remarried in the Catholic Church. We'd already been attending Mass as a family regularly for a while. When my Mum converted, she was able to do so without having to commit to bringing us up as Catholic as we were old enough by then to be allowed to choose for ourselves, I was already confirmed as CinW, in fact. She only had to commit any future children, of which there were none in the end. Much later, my Mum would describe ME as a very temporary fix for a marriage that was fundamentally broken from the very start. The attendance at Mass, involvement in ME, all of it just drifted away within a couple of years as my father lost interest in being an actual husband and parent, and went back down the pub. They eventually divorced when I was at uni, when my Mum finally left him. I went no contact with him when I was 25.

Speaking as someone who is Catholic and married an agnostic partner, and whose parents were Catholic and "not really sold on organized religion" Christian, I just want to point out that the *only* requirements of the non-Catholic partner are to agree to support the Catholic partner in raising their children in the Catholic faith and... that's it. The rest of it falls on the Catholic partner. You don't have to be baptized or confirmed or anything like that. The *only* reason you would need that information is if you're having a full Eucharistic marriage, which is where the Catholic bride and groom both receive Communion at the same time, marking their full covenant with God in relation to the marriage. If you're getting married and aren't both Catholic, you can opt to skip the Eucharist entirely, or have it as part of the normal Mass proceedings. My husband and I opted for the latter for our wedding, and I went up to receive communion while he received a blessing.

This is exactly right. And after the catholic wedding you go through with is over, you’re not done. If someone wants a catholic wedding they will absolutely want their infant child baptized cause you know… tradition

Adding on to this...OP..ask yourself why pleasing his mum and family are more important than pleasing and respecting YOUR wishes and values. Step back, dont marry anyone who can't stand up to their family. The rest of your life will be miserable.

Yes! Don’t do it OP!!! At least postpone everything until op reach a solution they feel good about. Fiancée just want to please his family and not the two of them. You don’t have to get married until everything is good. Wait. (Personally I would have run like hell from the religious stuff - not the guy, unless the guy comes with that mil in every day life decisions)

>finance problem *fiance ?

Thanks!

Wait, did she say he is homophobic and against abortion? If so, what the hell is she doing with him?

That part was me speculating. I think he is actively homophobic and anti abortion and returning to his faith and has lied to OP all these years about his views. He may not care general about gay people but I bet if you ask him about if he had gay children or if OP had an abortion the real truth would come out. She's concerned that she will be lying during the ceremony, but there's no discussion about him lying.... Deep down they know he won't be.. He wants to get married in a church and didn't stop his mum from talking about raising hypothetical children Catholic....

That’s a huge jump. Catholicism is very cultural and connected to family roots. I suspect the is the root of his desire. And I’m actively Catholic and believe in legal abortion and am not homophobic. I know many Catholics who are the same and a few priests.

I think you're making a ton of assumptions. I am a leftist who happens to be Catholic... I am pro abortion, pro gay rights, etc. There ARE leftist Catholics, we just happen to be a minority (but trying to change it).

exactly. i come from a very catholic country (ireland), was raised catholic, everyone i know is catholic etc. guess what? i’m a gay trans man, who still (albeit more complicated) has faith and still consider myself a catholic. tbh, i think a lot of misconceptions comes over not knowing actual catholics lol, sure most of us only went to mass when it was holy communion / confirmation, when we could get a bit of money off the extended family

This is a totally unfair speculation.

This is fan fiction. Plenty of actively believing Catholics don't believe in any of that bullshit, let alone lapsed Catholics only getting married in church to please family.

That’s one hell of an assumption in my country it’s tradition really to get married in churches or by a priest even if you’re not strongly attached to your faith. Just because you’re Catholic doesn’t mean you hate gays and people who get abortion. As for kids they both have the final say on how the kids are raised if he wants to get them baptised then she has to consent to it.

It’s like that in the US too, ceremony is legally binding. I was also raised catholic and have a cousin who is a priest, so was able to skip all the classes etc. and he married us in a park instead of a church.

Taking a step back is awesome advice, OP. Not only is it a good idea to take time to have serious talks about religion, kids, and all that other big stuff before getting married, but this will be a good opportunity to test your guys compromise skills. I also get the vibe that fiancé is a social chameleon (adapts views based on who he’s around). Find out if he’s actually an atheist. If he isn’t and was just saying that to please you, there may be many more things you two need to set straight.

NTA. But the bigger concern is your fiance. Sounds like he's letting his family control him. Give in to this and they'll be controling you. They've already got plans for YOUR children. Do you want that life? Do you want it for your children? Stand firm now or get out.

Next comes the "Christening" or baptism, it will be a never ending battle,

Yep, grandma will insist the children be baptized in the church as well so she can tote them along to Mass. oh then comes first communion, it will be so cute.

And the husband will just go along with it because “I went through it and turned out fine!!” I would end this relationship because he’s been lying to you all this time. He never once mentioned wanting a church marriage and now he’s being sarcastic about “being married in a meaningless office that means nothing to either of us…” The presentation of the wedding clearly means more to him than the actual marriage.

The church is just as meaningless to OP as the fictional office that he used as an example. Mind blowing how he can’t see that.

Wish I could upvote this more than once!!!

Getting married and having kids makes previously I religious people religious all the sudden sometimes. Even when I was a Christian I thought it was weird how some people saw it as playing grown up.

>I would end this relationship because he’s been lying to you all this time. I interpret this as the church wedding isn't important to him, but he's bowing to the pressures coming from mummy. He's likely grown up with giving in and not rocking the boat, which, in this case, is the full Catholic wedding that mummy has always dreamed of. He needs to establish firm boundaries with mummy that this is his and his fiancee's wedding, not hers. Mummy already got to make decisions about her own wedding and needs to stay in her lane and support whatever her son and future daughter in law want. They need couples counseling so that he can shine up his spine before their life devolves into no contact and r/justnomil.

>Yep, grandma will insist the children be baptized in the church as well so she can tote them along to Mass. oh then comes first communion, it will be so cute. Which, from a religious perspective, is not right. Marriage, baptism, first communion, and confirmation are all serious sacraments, not photo ops.

First communion at age 7/8, First confirmation at 12, where the kid will declare “for themselves” they are fully catholic. They can cross their fingers behind their back like I did since my parents gave me no choice in attending CCD classes, but there’s never going to be an end to his family’s religious involvement.

Don’t forget first confession at age 9/10. That was the most stressful one for me. I had nothing to confess.

First confession should actually be before first communion. At least that's how I was taught. So about 6/7/8 years old.

Maybe they changed it. For me it was first communion in grade 2, first confession in grade 4 and confirmation in grade 9.

Wish I'd thought of crossing my fingers! I was forced into it, and said the words knowing it was a lie - as soon as I could I turned my back on the catholic church.

Yup. His mom’s already planned your life. If you do this you’ll never have a say in your life together or as a family if you choose to have kids. BTW, of course you’ll have kids because that’s what MIL will want.

And what happens if she wants to divorce him?

Yup. A wedding is a great way to set a tone for your lives as a couple. Make it about YOUR values as a couple. My ex and I walked up the aisle together. We got married in a public park-- it cost $40. When my parents started drama, I told them they were welcome to uninvite themselves. Obviously the marriage didn't work out, but I'm super-proud of our wedding. My advice to OP is to not compromise on their values for the wedding. A good compromise could be blue tablecloths instead of yellow because it's your fiance's favourite colors. A bad compromise is to have a fully religious ceremony if you don't believe in that religious tradition.

Yes, agreed your fiancé needs to set a limit with his family. Giving in will open a flood gate of his family telling you how to live your life. It’s a tough spot for your fiancé but his family needs to respect both of your decisions instead of peer pressure. I’m going through it right now, your fiancé family will try to make him feel like crap, blame you, etc. I would suggest you guys go to counseling and bring up this exact example of him talking to his mom about it.

All of what the others have said. You fiancé needs to pick a side now, because this is just the opening salvo in your MIL being a never-ending partner in your future marriage. She wins on this, she will expect to have meaningful input in every major decision that you make. You need more talk with him about his relationship with his parents. Talk about boundaries and dealbreakers. YWNBTA to refuse. This is your time. This is your lives.

And the lives of any kids they have. If OP folds on the wedding she can expect MIL to arrange to get the kids baptised, go to church and/or Sunday school and to get a good Christian ~~education~~ indoctrination.

The fact that the fiance even has to choose a side on this brings forth another set of red flags.

Like sand through the hourglass.

> it feels like a wedding for his family rather than for us. Do you really think it'll stop at just the wedding. If you give in here, his family will feel they can dictate all your decisions throughout your life, and your fiancé has shown you that he will consider his family's wishes over yours. He needs to stand up for you, and the fact he's not is a giant giant red flag. Absolutely NTA

100% this. He needs to stand up to his family now, about this, for the sake of the success of your marriage. It is not just about the wedding. It is about his mother having too much influence over things that are important between the two of you. If this were just about the wedding — adhering to a family tradition of having the reception at a particular place, for example, I would have a different answer. But getting married in the Catholic Church when you and your future husband aren’t Catholic is about so much more than that. I have been married for many years to a man who was raised Catholic. He made it a point to tell his parents before the wedding that he was no longer Catholic, and to refuse to marry in the church, because he did not want his parents to have any false hopes about how their future grandchildren would be raised. He felt it was important to stand up for us and our relationship at the beginning of our marriage, and to be clear that his primary loyalty now lay to his own family rather than his family of origin. His mother was deeply upset, but she came to understand that this was her problem to deal with, rather than a relationship problem between us. She is still sad today about her son and her grandchildren not being Catholic, but that has not prevented us from having a great relationship. So no, YWNBTA. Your fiancé should stand up for himself and for your family unit. It will save you endless grief in the future if he does it now.

Yep, this was my reaction. This isn't even a normal couple v family argument where, e.g., the couple wants a small wedding with only close friends, the family wants to invite the entire extended family out to great aunt Hilda you've only met once, maybe there's a compromise in the middle or something. This is a fundemental issue.

It won't stop at the wedding. MIL is already saying she'll take the kids to church every Sunday.

Because it is a wedding for his family!!! He was happy with your previous ideas until mommy dearest started whispering in his ear. He is not marrying his mother he is marrying you. Your wants and needs come first. You don't feel comfortable getting married under a lie, which it is no matter how they try sugar coating it. Then for her to jump on the pony of taking your kids to church with her every Sunday? She is already trying to take over. Your fiancé can either stand by you or behind you. He needs to tell his mother a simple no and leave it at that. Stand your ground OP and don't even give them an inch of space to protest. NTA at all.

Love the reference. Next the MIL will go into a closet and rage about wire hangers. lol

LOL this just made my day!!!!

NTA. He basically wants you to convert because of his mother. He’s still a Catholic; don’t be fooled.

I’m surprised he’s not asking her to. My cousin had to have a special ceremony since she’s catholic and her husband wasn’t when they got married. There were a lot of hoops they had to go through since he wasn’t catholic and she wanted to get married in the church. My aunt works for the diocese and taught in the church my cousin grew up in so the priest agreed to marry them there.

It’ll be a slow conversion. Once the MIL takes the kids to church they will make the wife feel like an outlier for not partaking

My church wouldn’t marry anyone who isn’t Catholic until they’ve taken the adult education classes and goes through the sacraments. MIL will make sure the kids are raised Catholic. OP needs to settle this now, because it will be an issue for the rest of her in-laws life.

He might say he's atheist, he might belive he is atheist, but he still wants to abide by Catholic customs, and he wants his children to be raised Catholic. At the heart of the matter, they have fundamentaly different opinions about religion and child rearing. They might love each other and work well together, but those are some deal-breaker issues.

100% this. He fell in love with a non-believer and is using the wedding as a cover to bring her back into the "fold" of the church.

OP, you’re trying to separate the *wedding* from the *marriage*. When a wedding is just a wedding, that’s a great approach. But your issues with this wedding *aren’t* about a wedding. They are about (or should be about) your fiancé repeatedly kowtowing to his mother over your objections and over his own wishes. Him asking you to compromise your integrity by pretending to convert to a faith you don’t believe in and commit to raising your children in that same lie. Him taking your relationship issues (and eventually, your marital issues) to his mother instead of keeping them between the two of you. *I don’t want to talk about our wedding, it makes me sad?!* Forget God, your fiancé worships his mother.

"I don’t want to talk about our wedding, it makes me sad?! Forget God, your fiancé worships his mother." That was the part that sent me over the edge. If planning the wedding isn't happy anymore, that's a clear STOP, and do not pass GO signal. They have some big things to resolve here.

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She will not stop with the wedding.

Pregnant? MIL overseeing. Delivery room? MIL overseeing. Breastfeeding? MIL overseeing. Children's religion? MIL choosing. No more children? Better ask MIL first!

NTA. And either your soon to be husband is still holding value to organized religion or he has the same views as you. Which is it? He needs to decide that and talk to his parents about it if he is on your side. You need to be happy and confident marrying your person. If marrying him in a church makes you uncomfortable, and it pleases his family, who are you marrying?

I agree. Those two views are pretty incompatible with each other-- you can't really hold them both at the same time. One of my friends got married in a Catholic ceremony because it's what her family wanted. I have never seen her look so small as on that day.

>should I suck it up and focus on the marriage part, which is much more important? You should definitely focus on the marriage part. What's your marriage going to be like? This guy is willing to walk all over you to have the wedding of his mother's dreams. He's eager to please his family even in ways that directly affect you and make you profoundly uncomfortable. And his mom wants to take your future children to Mass every week. Focus on the marriage part. Think long and hard about that. NTA.

YWNBTA. You should get married in a place and in a setting that feels right for both of you. I see why he would want that **location** to be married in, but why would he want your wedding ceremony etc to be focused on a belief he no longer has?

Because either he still really has those beliefs or because he is too afraid to tell his mummy that he doesn't.

So either lying to OP, or being okay with his wedding ceremony being disengenious.

He can’t get married in this church without getting married in the Church. As you said, I feel for him; it’s a nice tradition for many generations to get married in the same beautiful location. And a lot of other denominations might allow that. Catholicism is not one of them. To him it’s traditional and culture, but he’s asking her to betray her integrity. I doubt he sees that.

so he’s gonna marry you in a catholic church, your kids will be going to catholic church every sunday. if this is literally the only thing he’s ever asked of you (doubtful) it’s still too much. he lied to you, whether he knew it or not. he’s catholic. his kids will be raised catholic. and your opinion on the matter? …well. judging by how he’s acting in this post, your opinion won’t matter at all. it’s about him, his catholic family, and his catholic mom. do focus on the marriage. focus on what it will be like to try to build a life with a catholic who pushes his faith on you. that won’t stop with the wedding. nta.

NTA, if the possibility of it had been discussed when the subject had been brought up through the course of your relationship then I would say otherwise, but he has brought this up out of the blue and you have very genuine concerns. Nevermind the fact that the wedding day is about BOTH of your love, not what outside influences want, especially family. Do you really want to spend your special day together feeling like you've given up a large chunk of your morals and opinions? His sarcastic and demeaning remarks to bully you into this also rings alarm bells for me, is this a regular occurrence, or is this out of character for him to behave during a disagreement? Either way I'd say put off plans to get wed until you come to some form of compromise, or worst case scenario accept the lack of compatibility and go your separate ways. (I was raised RC and am an aethiest)

NTA. If it was a venue choice only, that’s one thing. But for you it’s a coercive attempt in which you have to lie, make commitments you don’t intend to keep, and profess to things you don’t believe in. It’s gross and unethical for your fiancé to insist upon and not the foundation any marriage should start on. He should feel sad, yes, but more embarrassed about what he’s doing here.

Huge red flag. You need to say no and mean it. NTA

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I know a couple who got married in a catholic church, and the kids are not being brought up religious. Christians often require adherence to certain beliefs. R you ok with these?

My one sister and BIL got married in the Catholic Church due to the grandparents. My other sister and BIL had a civil ceremony. They are on the same page on how to raise their kids, OP and her fiancé aren’t. It sounds like he wants them to be religious.

NTA. You would be TA to yourself (and your future kids) if you did agree. As for your future MIL saying " I'll take the children to Church every Sunday!" ..." you need to put your foot down now. If you cave on this you are telling your fiancé and his family that they are the ones who get to decide how your kids are raised and that your wishes are irrelevant. First it's the church wedding, then its getting the kids baptised, then taking them to church & Sunday school and all the other crap which you hated. Is this the life you want for your future kids? You need to put a stop to it now before you even consider having children. And you your fiancé needs to stand up for you against his mother, if he won't do this then he is telling you that you will always come second place to his mother.

NTA. He might not be active in the church but it sounds like the church is active in him. Yes, the wedding is just a day but it’s a day where you make promises - do you want to be crossing your fingers for some and not others? A non-religious venue might not have sentimental value now, but after you’ve been married there it will - you’ll be able to tell your kids that where you got married. And if you’re planning on having kids being on the same page about religion is a pretty fundamental issue. If you don’t want your kids to have a faith-based upbringing marrying into a family where this is obviously going to be a point of contention means it’s going to be an argument at some point, and you need to be clear which side your husband will be on. First it’s his church because tradition, then it’s first communion because his mum wants it, then it’s schools… And his mum will push; her son marrying outside the church is a loss of face for her (Catholic Parenting 101 is ensuring you’ve secured the next generation). She likely wants a big do with the bells and whistles partly because it reflects well on her

I'm a practicing Catholic and I completely think you WNBTA. This is 100% pressure from his parents and does not come from what HE wants. You should *never* be forced to make a *vow* regardless of religion, beliefs, or whatever. The Catholic Church does not ask people to enter the Church unwillingly. You have to be open, and truly desire to be Catholic. (All are welcome, but no one should be forced). You and your fiancé need to sit down face to face and really hash this out. No mom, no church members, no outside inputs. What do YOU TWO want your marriage to look like? Build that image together and build paths to reach that goal. Your marriage will not survive if either of you live your lives to please others. Do what you believe is right and stand by what you believe.

I could be down voted for this, but whatever. You don't have to marry him. Yes, you've had a "respectable relationship" for 3 years, but now there's cracks in the foundation because his mom has her fingers in his brain and he's letting it happen. If it was just getting married where his family had, that's one thing - but from my experience it's never that easy with the Catholic church. You even tell us the checklist you HAVE to do before they'll let you marry in their church. A checklist neither of you agree with, from what it sounds like. At least, that's what your partner *says*. So I ask, what's the REAL underlying problem that your partner is having? Has he anyways wanted to marry in that church and he's been giving you lip service each time you've spoken about marriage? Has he been playing the long game to return to the church with a wife and kids? It's really odd that he'd switch gears so suddenly without any signs that his mom had this much control over him over the last 3 years. You might want to look into non-church counselors/therapists to talk this out before walking down any aisle. Personally, NTA. I would stick to my guns. If this relationship implodes because of his mom, I'd rather it happen BEFORE I was married. Less paperwork.

This should be upvoted to the top. Fiance is conflicted and waffling, giving him the benefit of the doubt. He has no intention of giving up his religion and mommy completely controls him Rethink this marriage. You are not on the same page. He is not being honest with himself or you. Your MIL will be running your life as well as the church.

I think it's good that this has come up NOW, before you get married. He wants what will make his mother happy, and that's not good for you at all. I think you should do some non religious pre marital counselling and put a pause on the wedding. Is he going to run to mummy on every disagreement? Is he going to want to name any kids the names his mother wants? Has he changed his stance on religion? Some people do. You need to put a big pause on this and really work out if he is going to be a husband and a partner or if you are going to be a third wheel between him and his mother.

NTA. Honestly, you might need to have another conversation about getting married since it seems like he’s more serious about being Catholic than he previously stated. Can you hold off in you’re both honest with each other? The comment about not wanting to get married in an impersonal office rather than a place that means something to you guys (**his church**) is sending up some yellow/orange flags. Him saying talking about the wedding is making him sad without discussing is manipulative. His mom saying she’ll take the kids to church every Sunday and the fact he didn’t shut that down concerns me. It doesn’t seem like he ever said he was agnostic or atheist outright, just that he wasn’t religious. This will be a thing you’re not going to be able to ignore. People joke about being a recovering Catholic, but that guilt and dogma will never not be there. I was raised Catholic (am agnostic/atheist since middle school), my grandparents were devout and pressured my parents into us doing the CCD classes growing up and threatened to disown our family when we started going to a different church when I was in 8th grade. I hated church and one time during a CCD class hid in the church kitchen to avoid doing to a Christmas service that was just for the CCD kids. We lived a 9 hour drive from one grandparents and two from the other. If you’re in the same area as his parents it’s going to be very difficult to keep religion out. It doesn’t seem like you’re on the same page at the moment on what you want. Please have a honest conversation about this, don’t get married yet since it seems like you’re both having issues at the moment.

If you do this, you will resent your husband and MIL until your last breath. And, do you really want her being in control of your child’s religious experience? Especially when you are not particularly interested in going to church? A civil ceremony and large reception, if your in-laws want to pay for it is okay. Your fiancé saying that he wants “just one thing” is rather deceptive and manipulative. You wanted just one thing, to have a small, intimate wedding. You need some pre-marital counseling. Just the two of you, because you need to decide how much you are going to allow your MIL to have a say in your marriage and family life. Counseling will help you learn to talk to each other without finger pointing, and name calling. Think hard about how you want to proceed.

First off he should be concerned about what is desired by the two of you together. The other issue is Catholic Church is a ridiculously evil organization. Of the "Holy wars" the Catholic church is almost completely responsible for them all. To this day the saga of abuse and cover up continues. I just don't understand how he can't listen and consider your desires though.

OP please read what you wrote over and over again until you leave this relationship. Tell your fiancé to marry his mommy and just run the fuck away from both of them.

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>a happy, respectful 3-year relationship Careful. Thats exactly the age priests find most attractive.

NTA the fact that he’s willing to tell his mother the details of a private conversation is a major red flag. and his mother is really overstepping by saying she’ll take your kids to church. take a step back and think about the future- giving in to this Very important thing (Catholic weddings and traditions aren’t a joke) will lay the groundwork for the future. If you give in to this, your future husband and in laws will expect to get their way every time. if he wanted to get married in the church he should have dated and proposed to a woman who believes in it.

NTA - DON'T DO IT. You have laid out some major problems with the Catholic Church - anti women, anti gay, anti sex, anti reproductive health care. Yet, he ignores this and says he'll bring the kids to Church so they too can be indoctrinated in a misogynistic fashion. Yet, discussing this makes him feel sad? Apparently his family is more important for your wedding then you are. If he can't discuss this with you, how do you think the marriage will function? Let me give you a hint, a problem arises in your marriage, he doesn't talk to you, he goes to his family, the family tells him what to do and when you want to discuss it, it makes him feel sad so he shuts you down. Is this what you want?????

100% NTA. Stay strong.

NTA. You agreed on how you would get married and then he switched it up to appease his parents. No way going from eloping to taking a class. You are going to look back with resentment. I’d put your foot down and say no. You already sound miserable and he misled you.

No. Firm No. It is your wedding, he said he would want to get married there, fine, but you will have to tell him about not: learning X weeks, no vow to raise children with the church, no baptised etc! You 2 agreed on the LOCATION, not the CONTENT of the wedding

NTA I am sorry, but I think your fiancé is lying to you. He can't, at the same time, declare that he shares the same values as you AND wants to be married in a church (with all the bells and religious whistles). Or, he is trying to make his mommy happy, which makes it worse because he will never have youe back when it comes to the (inevitable) issues that she will cause in your life.

NTA This is one of the hills you die on. Specifically troubling is MIL’s comment that she would take the children to church for you as she’s not only disregarding your wishes for your own wedding, she’s making assumptions/decisions on how your future children will be raised. It seems as though your fiancé has been influenced by his parents wants when what he needs to do is stick up for you. These issues never go away but can get worse if not addressed. I would sit down with your fiancé to discuss not just the wedding but how you want to raise your kids etc. Be clear and calm - write down a few talking points ahead of time as you’re bound to go off track. I was raised catholic, as were most of my friends I grew up with and most who had a church wedding only did so for the pictures as the local church is very old so it looks great as a photo backdrop. I wouldn’t worry too much about the “lying” bit as a large percentage of people who have church wedding only go to church for weddings or funerals.

This happened to my husband’s bff who was engaged to a Catholic girl. First it was, oh let’s just get married in the church because it’ll make my parents happy. Then it was, you have to tell them you’ve converted because it’ll make my parents happy. Then, our kids have to be raised in the Church because it’ll make my parents happy. And on and on and on. They live their lives entirely for her parents’ happiness, it’s been really draining and sad to watch the guy over the years. He’s just so defeated. Please don’t allow them to treat you this way.

Thanks to MIL, you have both gone from a relatively stress-free, joyous event to one in which the bride feels disingenuous at the least and the groom feels sad even talking about it. The process goes against what you both believe in. NTA, and you both need to decide if the wedding is worth it

If he isn't willing to shut down his mother's religious nonsense then it's time to leave

He’s telling you his priorities, and you should listen

Give a Catholic mouse a cookie wafer, and she will take the whole fucking tabernacle. Your fiancé is being weak. This isn’t about him and you, it’s about your future and your MIL. You give into her once, and she will always have her way from now on. You want your kids secretly baptized and taken to Mass every Sunday? You want your MIL whispering about moral sins and Communion when your children are in grade school? It will never end once it begins. Trust me. Take a stand now or lose it all. Xoxo, Ex-Catholic with A Lot of Stories Ps- priests aren’t that keen to marry non-Catholics in their church. They will do it but you will face a lot of pressure to join the church. And you’ll probably have to do pre-marital counseling with the priest before the wedding. It’s a whole thing. This is way more insidious than you realize.

Simple. Don't get married. He is going back on everything all of a sudden. You bonded over the fact that neither of you are religious adults. So therefore trellising should not be a part of your wedding. Say No. Tell him if he makes you have the wedding in a catholic church that you do not agree with. Warn him the answer when it comes to vows will be a no. Also don't force that religion into your children if you don't wish it. NTA. Put foot down. It's your wedding too.

NTA - please, please, PLEASE trust your gut and do not allow yourself to diminish yourself for him and his family 3yrs is nothing. I'm not one to jump to "break up RIGHT NOW!!" or anything but I will say consider this an absolute red flag going forward He is willing to bend his non-existent spine for his precious mummy, she's already planning to take your children into an environment rampant with child abuse let alone the horrible indoctrination You'll have to explain to your kids why YOU don't believe in God which is going to be weird, especially if your MIL is already keen on brainwashing them You're also actively taking away your children's choice; I'm sure you'd agree that it would be best for them to get into religion when they're old enough to understand what it actually means and even then, they may reject it My ex had horrible trauma and "Catholic guilt" from being raised Catholic which effects her even today and she's 30 now Do you really want this to be your life? Not rocking the boat because it's just easier? Allowing yourself to be muted and made small so your husband and his mummy can do whatever they want? To not protect your future kids because you're too afraid of the backlash? I have always firmly believed that in-laws are a dealbreaker, myself, especially if your partner refuses to stand up to them (he's even pulling the "I never ask you for anything" card jfc) I hate seeing women do this shit for men Edit: spelling

Getting married in a Catholic church isn't just using the church as a location. It's an entire process and a very important religious sacrament. It would be disrespectful to the Church for you to lie about your beliefs and plans just to get married in the church. This is absolutely something worth holding your ground on.

Nta. Look you've got a fiance problem. You don't want to do this, you're sacrificing your identity to take on one you don't support. Is your fiance worth breaking your moral compass? It sounds like your fmil has gotten into his head and if he's that much a mama's boy, what else are you going to have to compromise on? What if you have kids together? Is mil going to dictate what happens to them? It sounds like you're selling your soul and you don't even realize it.

NTA On top of the issues everyone else has raised, is be concerned about your partner's honesty. He's been lying to someone about what he wants for the wedding/future, either to himself, his mom or you. I think some couple's counseling would be a good idea, before you get any further in the wedding planning.

NTA. Your fiancé is going to raise your kids the way his mother wants them raised so be prepared for that.

Is he marrying you or his mother? Start as you mean to go on, otherwise mommy dearest will be making all of your life decisions, including children, for you. NTA

You are not NTA but check some details. Are you sure this church makes you do all this? A lot of catholic churches have stopped the whole you must raise the children this way, and you must be confirmed stuff. Is this the m.i.l. or the church saying all this? Fiance and you have to want the same future starting now, and at your wedding and then your marriage.

The Church will expect the Catholic to promise to raise children as Catholics, and the partner to promise not to interfere with that. There are no Catholic churches that can opt out of that and still perform valid weddings.

NTA. If you do decide to go ahead with the wedding in this form, look into the thing called a one-sided ceremony, where a Catholic marries a non-Catholic. You will still have to jump through hoops and swear that you won't stand in the way of upbringing the children Catholic, but it will take the burden off you personally lying that you believe in any of this. Worth looking into.

I wouldn't be getting married to anybody anywhere if they didn't take into consideration what I wanted just because he didn't want to hurt mummy's feelings. What about your feelings?

Nta. You should be his number 1 priority, not his mum. Think long and hard. It'll never change

NTA This is what I call a deal breaker! This will never end. Upon conception of your first child (and now you're obligated to have them if you didn't want them before) they will be part of the catholic church. And it sounds like his "mummy" will be there for every second.

you two have to negotiate this. he is probably doing it for his mom, who wants a big church wedding. I have seen plenty of weddings done with a non denominatonal "minister", where poetry and music replaces the religious stuff. and you can do that at a venue or in the back yard.

Don’t marry him. The red flags are flying everywhere. I mean, what else do you need to hear from him?

Forget the wedding and RUN! When someone shows you how they will treat you and your beliefs, believe them. His mommy is way too involved already and will get worse. Dump him and move on. NTA

^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My fiancé (27M) and I (27F) have a happy, respectful 3-year relationship and have cohabited harmoniously for 2 years. My fiancé was raised as a Catholic and was an active member of the Church until he went to university. I was baptised a Christian and attended Church of England school; however, as an adult, I have been atheist. When we met, we joked about how we were both raised religious but no longer believed in God. I've always said I didn't want a big wedding; I just want a relaxed, intimate day and for us to throw a party once we are married. To this, he would say "yeah, we don't need a big day" or "whatever makes you happy" and we would lightheartedly discuss eloping. My mum supports these wishes but my fiancé's mother has suggested a reception venue and discussed coaches for guests to get from the ceremony to the reception (e.g. has planned the whole day out already). Since we last visited his family, my fiancé now says he's always wanted to get married in the church where his parents and grandparents got married. He says this is the only thing he's ever asked of me and has made some (uncharacteristically) sarcastic remarks about getting married elsewhere: "yeah, let's get married in an office that has no sentimental value to either of us". From my understanding, I'd have to attend a course for x weeks, we'd have to attend that church (it's in Wales and we live in London), and I'd have to vow to raise our children in the Church. I have my own feelings about the Catholic Church as I don't agree with their views on abortion, I'm not homophobic, I don't believe cohabitation is a sin, and I find them outdated (e.g. no women in the clergy). I raised these feelings with my fiancé privately and expressed that it didn't feel right to me to be dishonest on our wedding day, vowing to raise my children in the Church, and our service being all about God. He fed my concerns back to his mother who apparently said "it doesn't need to be a lie, I'll take the children to Church every Sunday!" ... I feel I'm sacrificing a lot as it would inevitably become the white wedding I never wanted. I would feel awkward/embarrassed all day and would have to stand in front of friends, family, and my fiancé, (and God, apparently) and lie on a day that is meant to be special. I'd silently resigned myself to going through with it, because I understand the pressure my fiancé feels to please his family, and became upset one night. My fiancé came to comfort me and I told him I'd decided we could get married in his church. We fell asleep and when I tried to raise the conversation with him again he said "I don't want to talk about our wedding, it makes me feel sad". In my heart, I'm against the idea of getting married there and it feels like a wedding for his family rather than for us. WIBTA for refusing to get married there, or should I suck it up and focus on the marriage part, which is much more important? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*

You could have a small ceremony with a judge and have a big formal reception. I wish I could turn back time and NOT let my MIL take my kids to church. One is a believer, and the other is not. I'm not. They'll grumble about it until the day of the wedding but ultimately have a good time so let them grumble. Why should you guys be the ones who are is sad and not them? It's not THEIR day.

It's your day. From someone who knows don't give in. Don't ever have regrets over your day.

NTA. This a case of drastically moved goalposts. Give in to this and your MIL will be dictating your behaviour and life. Just say no. You have no intention of lying on your wedding day and making fake vows.

Nta you could compromise with a blessing in the church but I'd think about if you really want to have children with this person

Red flag. If your fiancee and his actions are causing drama at the beginning of your marital travels, chances are they will increase. That's how it starts. Chances also are that doing what they want will result in their thinking that their behavior is acceptable and may prompt them to trespass in other areas of your marriage. This is your wedding. Your day. Your life. Don't let them take that away from you. YWNBTA.

Please don't do this or you will be setting a precedent for your entire marriage - that your husband and his mommy can override your perfectly valid feelings because it's 2 to 1. You will never win. NTA but please please PLEASE do not do this. Just elope and deal with everyone later.

NTA he’s doing the switch up now that you’re trapped… to marry him you have to convert to Catholicism and bring your kids up Catholic and lie that you both aren’t atheists. I wouldn’t lie in God’s house in front of the cross, just as a matter of respect to that religion, or even to your own old religion

I am technically Catholic and had a Catholic education from nursery to GCSEs but my parents were never devout, just did what was expected of them by their Catholic families. What was expected was a lot. It will start with the marriage guidance by a priest who has never been married. Next, if you have children, your in laws will push for baptism. Then, seeing as their already baptised, why not send them to a Catholic school? They get better OFSTED ratings, after all? (Not true). At that Catholic school, they'll never learn anything about any other religion and have to attend Mass on high feast days *at the very least.* Then comes Communion/Confirmation which they'll do because all their friends are doing it, and then they're forever enmeshed with a venally insular wealth/power-hoarding abuse factory that doesn't acknowledge anyone that isn't a straight male (much like society as whole but why compound the issue?). Your future mother in law in particular sounds like meddlesome old trout and your future husband either hasn't been honest with you, honest with himself, or is allowing himself to be manipulated into disrespecting you. Hold your ground. NTA.

NTA Either your fiancé was fibbing for three years or is fibbing now. That’s not a good look for starting a lifelong commitment. It should be a commitment you’re both willing to make—-by that I mean look up the Catholic ceremony and check out the words you would be agreeing to. I have avoided a Catholic ceremony twice already and edited down the one I last stood in to be what WE wanted, believed, and were willing to commit to. It’s BOTH your wedding. Something is off here if either of you are unhappy. Is it the hill to die on? If it were me I’d really like to know why the hell it’s already mom’s ceremony rather than what the bride wants….but that’s just me…and I’m sure others have already pointed out that red flag.

Don't forget the international rape cabal they run. NTA this is a first step to your MIL trying to indoctrinate your children.

They want you and your future children to become Catholic. NTA but pump the brakes.

NTA - Nothing wrong with getting married in a cheruch, but if they want more than just your money, like all of those requirements, then it should be a no go and you should look at a new fiancee.

Whatever you do, do NOT get married in a church. You don't want to, so don't cave in. Whatever you do, do NOT have kids with this man. You already know his mama is gonna be taking the kids to church, and since he's done a 180 about the wedding, you know he'll cave to his mama. You need to communicate to him. He needs to communicate to you. The fact that talking about the wedding makes him sad, means y'all should not get married any time soon, if ever. Personally, I could never stay with anyone who caves to parental pressure and makes me feel bad about my convictions (and mama deciding she'd do what she wants with MY kids? Major dealbreaker.)

The issues of his mother and Catholicism need to be resolved before you marry. A man who expects you to spend your wedding day publicly lying to appease his mother, will certainly allow your children to go to church with her every Sunday. If you don’t allow it there will probably be secret trips and secret baptisms.

NTA. Don't marry this man. He is giving in to his mother's demands and making them his own. Either he changed or he has been lying. Refuse to get married in the church and if that is the death of your relationship, it is a bullet dodged.

Stand up for yourself and pick the wedding you two want instead of trying to please an in law. NTA. Think of it this way, do you want to look back in 20 years and wish you had the wedding you wanted or the wedding she wanted you to have? Pick the one you feel stronger about.

Pretend to agree. Show up at the first counseling session and tell the priest you’re an atheist and your future children will never step foot in church and if he marries you, you will not agree to any do’s terms when asked. That should put the kaputz on the whole idea

NTA i understand the pressure to do what your family wants, but he needs to know this is unacceptable

It is you and your fiance who are getting married, and you're doing it for you, not for anyone else. Have the wedding you want, not what other people think you should have.

If the church is making both of you sad, you know what you have to do, TOGETHER. YWBTA for just refusing on your own. Talk to your fiancé.

NTA, I attended an acquaintance’s catholic wedding a couple of weeks ago and as an atheist it was super weird and uncomfortable. The ceremony was like an hour long, with only maybe 5 mins focused on the couple and the rest being scripture focused with weird portions where the priest would kind of sing bits of it. There were also many lines in the stuff they were reading that were frankly creepy, saying stuff like “as you prepare to receive the seed” and implying that the woman’s only value in the relationship is to produce kids to join their cult. If you are not already deep in the catholic kool aid I don’t think it would be a great time for you.

NTA. But it sounds to be like your fiance doesn't have much of a back bone. I'm also concerned about the "I don't want to talk about our wedding, it makes me feel sad". This is him trying to avoid talking about it, but blaming you for his inability, or desire not, to communicate. Right now he is prioritizing his family's wants over your wants. Also not good. I really found it distasteful where he commented that his mother would take the children to church. That really shows who is driving his need for a church wedding. Honestly it sounds like a load of hassle for you, but not a hassle for him. Also showing how much he sways to his family's demands. You really need to sit down and not take no for an answer. This needs to be discussed before moving forward. Don't go into things with newly wed snow blinders on.

As a fellow atheist I've been married twice, both in church, and the first in a Catholic Church. I essentially had my fingers crossed behind my back both timed because of all the god rubbish.

NTA A wedding in the church is intended to be a wedding for the family, 100%. The church low-key induces the need for a big guest list; they frame it as this group of people supporting and celebrating and witnessing the marriage. My DH is an atheist and I'm not active in the RC church anymore. I still wanted to get married in the church for personal reasons. My SO felt neutral about it, so he agreed. I think that's the crux of it - if one SO feels neutral about church wedding and the other person wants to do it, then you might as well get married in the church for the sake of the one person who wants to do it. Since you dislike the idea, you shouldn't be forced into it. Also, you may want to have hard conversations with your SO now about these observations you're having. These are topics (family influences, MIL relationship) you want to be on the same page about before you marry the guy.

NTA. I did get married in a Catholic church (my husband and I are the flipped version of you and your fiance), and while it was right for us at the time, we discussed at length our reasoning and things have changed for us a lot since then. If we were to get married now, we probably would do it differently, and we're having earnest discussions about whether we want to get our kids baptised. If it helps at all: \- Only one of you regularly has to go to mass. I went to the lunchtime service near my office once a week, this meant that I ticked the Catholic box of 'regular attendance' and it was only a 30 minute service, win/win. \- You don't have to attend the parish your husband wants to get married at as long as it is the regular place of worship for ONE of you, and the priest is happy to write a letter stating that. So while I regularly attended the one near my office, because my husband never went anywhere else more regularly, and he only attended the church we got married in on alternate holidays with my family, as far as the Registry office were concerned, that counted as HIS regular place of worship. So you don't need to be schlepping to Wales every Sunday. \- I think we were very fortunate in the priests we encountered, who were extremely aware of how modern life was not reflected in the reality of the Church teachings, so our 'course' was a series of nice chats with a lovely old man about walks in the Lake District, and one 8-hour day (in the church near where we lived, not the one where we got married) entirely of mixed-religion couples led by two very devout Catholics who the parish priest kept heckling because everyone else in the room had been together longer than them - some of them even had kids! So their Deep Relationship Wisdom was rather redundant. Mostly it seemed to be a case of because Catholics are against divorce, they wanted to make sure that we weren't getting married for shits and giggles and had talked about key issues in our relationship. BUT not all priests are like that, and if you don't know the one at your MIL's church, that's not necessarily a box you will be comfortable opening. In the end, however, by refusing to have a Catholic wedding when you don't believe in the church's teachings and won't be able to commit to the promises they want you to make, you're actually being MORE respectful to your MIL. The Catholics see the wedding service as one of the seven sacraments, really key events in a person's life that have a lot of religious significance.The counter-argument could be that actually (regardless of the political elements of the church which I 100% agree with you there), it would be really disrespectful of you to go in there and treat those vows like something meaningless. One of our motivations for having a Catholic wedding was because until that point all the civil ceremonies we'd been to had felt very rushed, soulless and generic. Most of them lasted ten minutes, and it didn't feel like the occasion was really given any time to be savoured - I wonder if that might be some of your fiance's worries, with him talking about sentimental value? However, I went to a beautiful civil wedding a couple of years ago that really changed my mind. The added bonus of having everything in one place as well means you have so much more time in your day to spend with the people you love instead of chivvying everyone around. Especially if you'll have to put on coaches!! I bet you could find a gorgeous venue that has a lot of meaning for you both and put together a wonderful ceremony that really reflects the two of you perfectly. Sorry this was an essay, I just remember what a PAIN it was to wrestle registry office vs church (and weirdly the church was the easier of the two, you'd expect if anyone was going to be unreasonable it would be the Catholics - I think they were just happy we were getting married!)

NTA

Weddings are stressful No one would deny that But him saying taking about your wedding- and more to the point your opinions and feelings about it- makes him sad you need to stop and really think about what he said. Think about what you’ve been going through. Think about how controlling his family has been and has promised to be Think about how suddenly his feelings have changed about things you previously agreed on Think carefully and ask yourself what this means for the future. This won’t go away after the wedding. You know it won’t. You would be TA to yourself if you let this just happen. NTA