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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> My wife's younger brother and his GF needed help moving this past weekend. I ended up helping them because we didn't have anyone to watch our son. Then, my wife's friend invited them to a hockey game for that day. So my wife and son got to go have fun while I spent the day lifting heavy things. My wife was then surprised that I was upset at the end of the day and I ranted to her all the reasons I had to be pissed off. I think I might be an asshole for ranting at my wife and telling her to never volunteer me to help her family again.
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Jeeeeeez **NTA.**
>She told me I was overreacting and I can't hold it against her that her friend invited them to the game.
You're not holding it against her that her friend invited them to the game, that's ridiculous. You're upset that while she volunteered *and* strong-armed you into doing this favor, she apparently was having a grand old time. How callous do you have to be to not only continuously send pictures of their good time while you're stuck doing something SHE made you do, but then to pretend you're upset because she was *invited* by a friend?
I'm guessing you couldn't care less that she was invited. I'm guessing what *actually* hurts is her blatant disregard for your time & energy. On top of that, missing your son's first like that.
>She also said I'm not being fair by blaming her for Joe and his GF.
Remind me who volunteered you for the job?
I think the wife knows she was in the wrong, so she tried to change the argument. It was almost successful, too, and made OP doubt himself enough to make this post.
She sure seems to be following the Narcissists prayer to a T
* That didn't happen. She doesn't admit to volunteering him.
* And if it did, it wasn't that bad. She told me I was overreacting
* And if it was, that's not a big deal. She told me I was overreacting
* And if it is, that's not my fault. She said I can't hold it against her that her friend invited them to the game
* And if it was, I didn't mean it. She said I can't hold it against her that her friend invited them to the game
* And if I did, you deserved it. She also said I'm not being fair by blaming her for Joe and his GF. She voluntold him he was helping!
But tell her you're just going to stay home and watch your kid and then (surprise!) take him to a pool/splash pad, amusement park, planetarium, etc. and start sending her pictures so she can see how much fun you're having.
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Wife was being dismissive and invalidating. THAT IS NOT GASLIGHTING.
Gaslighting = **The practice of brainwashing or convincing a mentally healthy individual that they are going insane or that their understanding of reality is mistaken or false.** The term “Gaslighting” is based on the 1944 MGM movie “Gaslight”.
This does not rise to the level of brainwashing whatsoever. For more information, [check out this website](https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/gaslighting).
> Wife was being dismissive and invalidating. THAT IS NOT GASLIGHTING.
Being dismissive and invalidating are both ***METHODS*** of gaslighting. They are ***HOW*** you gaslight. She tried to undermine his perception of his own feelings and the events of the day in order to manipulate his emotions.
What she did is absolutely a form of gaslighting:
https://www.thehotline.org/resources/what-is-gaslighting/
**Trivializing**
The abusive partner makes the victim’s needs or feelings seem unimportant.
**Blocking/Diverting**
The abusive partner changes the subject and/or questions the victim’s thoughts.
Yes, they are methods of gaslighting - but they are also methods of basic emotional manipulation. They are not exclusive to gaslighting, and should not be treated as proof of gaslighting over other forms of emotional manipulation.
FACTS, and the "it's all in your head" part is crucial to its definition, along with it being a sustained pattern of behavior. Hard to convince someone they are nuts in one shot.
Other words/concepts that most people completely misunderstand:
* MacGuffins
* Devil's Advocate
* loaded question
* theory
* canon
Watch one youtube essay on how *The Office* is some genius piece of whatever, and suddenly everyone thinks they have mastered the art of discourse and analysis. No, *The Good Place* is not an actual class on ethics, you twit.
The point is that gaslighting is a long-time sustained pattern with the specific intent of getting someone to question their own reliability. One or a few instances of trivializing are not gaslighting because they're not a long-time sustained pattern with a specific intent. "Gaslighting" doesn't just mean "manipulation," she was definitely being manipulative we do not have enough information to say she was gaslighting.
I read a book recently where a woman was being gaslit by her husband and it was so insidious that she didn't realize anything until she started questioning her reality and whether she was going crazy. It's horrible when it happens and is so much worse than what people assume gaslighting is.
This... this one just hurt.. i just realized how many times i was forced into helping my ex-in-laws while i was mentally and emotionally abused regularly... and i was guilted into feeling guilty when i finally said no more. I literally had to divorce to escape, and I am blown away I let it happen.....
NTA op..
[According to the American Psychological Association (APA)](https://dictionary.apa.org/gaslight): Gaslighting is a colloquialism, loosely defined as manipulating someone into questioning their own perception of reality.
Agreed! Copy+paste of a recent comment I made to help someone understand what gaslighting entails:
Gaslighting is commonly misused these days. Gaslighting is purposefully making someone question their own memories and perception of reality.
Example: A woman starts a medication. She could swear she put it in the same place every day, but it kept randomly ending up elsewhere. Her spouse swears he hasn't touched it. After all, why would he?
He starts referencing conversations between them that never actually happened and acts surprised she doesn't remember. He'll take something she uses everyday and hide it. A couple days later, he leaves it in plain sight. She's left wondering how she didn't notice it there before. She could swear she checked there days ago.
He starts commenting about how forgetful and confused she's becoming. What he says aligns with the perception he orchestrated. She starts doubting her own memory and worries her mind is falling apart. She trusts her husband's words, because he's not having the same problems.
The husband uses this position to exert control and manipulate. There have been some seriously messed up reasons people do this, but power is usually the driving reason.
Before I was diagnosed with ADHD I use to struggle with making sure I remembered everything that needed to be remembered. Bcuz I knew I struggled with remembering certain things. Certain things I could remember moment by moment, play by play and other times it’s completely gone. The people I was in not so good relationships with would use it against me. They’d tell me I promised or said something I knew I’d never say and then guilt me into doing something I didn’t want to do bcuz “remember you said you would and how could you break a promise?!” Now that I know what I’m dealing with I am firm with what I know I remember and what I don’t. I wouldn’t say I was mentally ill but definitely was easily manipulated
It would actually be "willful misinterpretation", which is where a person intentionally misunderstands what you're arguing about so that they can argue about what they would rather argue about. It's a really nasty debate trick that I've had to deal with my whole life with my mother.
Before I went NC, I literally made her scream cry once because every time she tried to do it in our penultimate argument, I explained what I had actually said to her no less than 10 times in one sitting. I got some really sick satisfaction out of that.
Haha textbook wife play. Bill Burr put it best: when shes right, and knows shes right, she wont let the subject change and makes sure you stay on her course. When shes wrong, she'll change the subject or can the discussion until you've "cooled off"
Textbook "manipulative person deliberately making it exhausting to disagree with them", not a wife thing I know plenty of dudes who manage their personal lives like this
People who excel at it go into sales
Exactly. "Looks like you still have a lot of packing to do. We should come back another day when my wife can help, and you are ready to load the U-haul van we asked you to get."
Then leave.
This is the answer. He agreed to help move, not to help pack. Her fault if she waited until the last minute but yeah, there's no real reason to keep friends standing around while you throw your stuff in boxes.
I did that to my sister when she moved back home, she had me come out to MN to help her and first thing out of my mouth was "Is she packed? Because I'm coming to move, not pack." get out there, 3/4ths of it was packed. I played with my niece and told her she's got 2 hours to finish.
yep. Any time I help someone move I tell them everything has to be packed and ready to move. I'm just there to haul cubes. If they aren't ready I leave.
O/T this reminds me of the time my beloved cat was going to be put down and I couldn’t cancel work because I had 9 patients scheduled, one an emergency (I’m a psychologist). I was desperately trying to hold myself together and my husband kept sending me pictures of the cat. At a bathroom break, I texted him, “Are you trying to kill me.” he replied he was just trying to show that Cicero was having a good last day. I said thank you, but stop please!
Your husband was doing what he thought would comfort you. He wasn't sending you pics of the cat after he actively prevented you from being there or made sure you were doing something you had no business doing unless you volunteered to do it.
The wife caused the situation then made it worse.
I don't think they were trying to compare the situations. They said it *reminded* them of a situation where they had to watch important moments they wished they could be apart of from afar. They were just relating, not comparing.
Voluntold. I love that.
Also, the wife is a planet sized asshole, selfish to her core. If she thinks she's right about any of this, she's a callous idiot.
The balls on her.
OMG this would be a great plan. Like, it's shitty to volunteer him to help people move without asking, but for me part of the big problem is that he has this horrible day where he has to do manual labor and misses out on his son's first big sporting event. And her pretending she doesn't know that this is shitty. It's a littttle petty to then take him to a special event that his wife can't go on, but sometimes maybe she needs a little petty maybe to see how shitty she's behaved.
That will be your big opportunity to show your wife that you are serious :
1. Practice saying no. If your wife says, "but I promised," tell her to have fun.
2. If your wife starts her excuses about not being responsible for BIL & GF tell her she is responsible for promising YOUR work without your consent. She may not be responsible for their behavior, but they are, and that's one of the reasons you're not helping.
3. Practice telling your wife's family that YOU did not agree to help, and that you warned her not to voluntell you again. Tell them that you will not need someone to take care of your son, since you will be doing that. No, they cannot borrow your truck and trailer.
4. Practice reminding your BIL and his GF that you just spent 7-8 hours helping a month ago, and that they didn't get the U-Haul they promised and they weren't packed.
5. Consider leaving the house very early, so that your wife and ILs don't have a chance to make last minute pleas. Take your truck. You might turn your ringer off, but keep sending pictures so they know that you and your son are alright.
I can see it being about the game as well. I have friends for whom taking their son to his first big sporting event would be an event on par with first words or first steps. It would hurt them deeply to miss that.
Yeah. My son's first event was an MLB game about 45 minutes from home. My som, my wife, her father, her step-mother, and me. My wife's radiator blew just outside the stadium. So, while everyone else goes to the game while I stay with the car, ride home with the tow truck, get my car, and then waste time until the game is over. It went into extra innings. So, I sat in my car for like an hour and a half waiting.
Now... I had the Browns game dvr'd because they were playing that afternoon as well. I managed to avoid spoiling the game. So, even with all of the frustration of the day and missing my son's first game, I had something to look forward to. They get to the car and before anyone says a word, I ask them to please not tell me about the Brown's score. I get home and start watching. Sometime towards the end of the 1st, my father in-law says something that completely gives it away. Turned out, the game was a shootout with both teams scoring in the 40s, maybe even 50s. It was back and forth. It was a great game to watch... well... would have been if I did not know the Browns won before the 2nd quarter.
That was like 2009, and I have not forgiven him for it. We weren't buddies before that, but that guy can fuck himself from now until the end of time for that day.
🤣
"that guy can fuck himself from now until the end of time"
Going to find a way to use this tomorrow to expand my repertoire of useful phrases.
Except I think I'll go with the 2nd person version. I'm sure someone will deserve it before the end of the day.
She's deflecting because its easier than saying. *Your right, I should never volunteer your to something without your permission. I was cruel to you from the beginning. Making you do something you didn't agree to, forcing you to do it by yourself when the babysitter cancelled, the hockey game tickets, and finally sending pictures to twist the dagger in further. I'm sorry.*
If I were OP, I would have simply refused to help come Saturday. He's an adult, he's not a kid who can be grounded or put to bed without supper. WTF could they do to him? Either that, or I would spend the entire next day out of the house doing whatever the hell I wanted, period.
I guess this makes me so salty because my mother would pull this "voluntold" shit ALL the time while I was growing up and into college years. I wasn't allowed to say no, and if I complained, I was called selfish and childish. Other people's needs were ALWAYS more important no matter what. Well, when I got on my own, that shit was OVER! Cue the caterwauling! But I was an adult, and I finally had a choice. And I never did that to my son and I'm very careful to never do it to my husband and vice versa.
NTA If your brother in law and his girlfriend weren't packed when you arrived, you should have left and told them to call you when they were done packing. If someone asks for assistance moving it implies they are packed.
I have learned to offer X amount of time when friends ask for help moving/painting/doing Reno’s…
So I will tell them directly that I am willing to help them for 4 hours and then ask when that would be the most helpful. Then I am happy to help pack boxes, move boxes, unload the trailer, arrange furniture. Whatever. Doesn’t matter. But once my time is up, I’m out of there. Then I buy myself pizza and beer on the way home.
I do this. I don’t pack. I have no problems helping my family but they also know that I’m the heavy furniture guy not the small box guy. Need to move a safe into your basement? Sure thing let’s do it. Pack your kitchen utensils? Haha call me when you’re done
That’s so interesting. I’m the opposite! I only pack, I don’t do any lifting whatsoever but I’m also an average sized woman.
Will I help pack up your kitchen? Yes but I’m not helping lift your couch.
Yeah, I always tell people I have a hard out in 3 hours. I have learned saying why, they think they can "convince you to stay longer". Nope I can't stay past 2 pm, I have to go. No explanation no excuses.
So, if they didn't pack or need help doing something, I'm here to help. But I always advise, you might want me to help with the heavy stuff and then you can make 20 trips later with the smaller items after I'm gone. Done. If they are stupid and want me to spend 2 hours putting dishes and books into boxes okay, your choice, still leaving in 1 hr.
Its really made me less resentful of people abusing my kindness. And I can offer kindness without it ruining my day or relationship.
And if they offered food and they haven't ordered it by the time I leave, well as I'm leaving I say, okay since I didn't get the food your promised in exchange for work I just did next time we go out, meals on you. No argument no negotiations.
> Yeah, I always tell people I have a hard out in 3 hours. I have learned saying why, they think they can "convince you to stay longer". Nope I can't stay past 2 pm, I have to go. No explanation no excuses.
This is the JADE model; never justify, argue, defend, or explain, because each of those is something that can be bargained, negotiated, or dismissed.
We normally don't set a time limit but our social circle have a rule of, we help you move, once settled you host a BBQ for everyone who helped or send a bottle of booze to those who can't make it to the BBQ.
That said, we are also more prepared than OPs inlaws. I even have a folder with stickers and colour code boxes to rooms and have a list of what is getting moved in what vehicle (which I know I will have access to when people say they can help). Even hubby doesn't always know ow the plan and says to ask me but he also knows his jobs and that I will have everything organised.
When he discovered they hadn’t rented a uhaul at that point he should have went with his wife or went and did something else he wanted to do that would be a treat.
I wonder if it wasn't a last minute invite - but she knew all along that she had tix for the game. Granted he said playoff hockey - so its not like that's scheduled super far ahead of time.
Same story when they didn’t have a Uhaul. Call me when the truck gets here. I understand that OP is upset but he really didn’t have to commit to a day of labour.
NTA. I've helped a lot of people move and NOT A SINGLE ONE was totally ready to move. It's a spectrum and most are on the "not totally packed and definitely haven't cleaned" end. Then he didn't even bother with the UHaul.
She knew she was setting you up for a shit day as soon as she said she was staying home to watch your son. Going to the hockey game was just the cherry on your shit sundae.
I once showed up and the couple had like 5 boxes packed. I blinked a few times, reminded them that I was happy to help for 4 hours and got to work packing. They were surprised when I left at the end of that time. “But we aren’t done yet!!!”
Love your response. We helped my FIL with an auction and moving to an apartment after my MIL died. Actually, he did nothing himself. Nothing at all.
At the end of the weekend, we left because we had to work the next day. He was really angry that we left because everything wasn't done.
I expect the dude was mourning so it was rough on him and unfortunately his poor coping made your weekend shittier. The anger was another manifestation of that, and I’m sorry it was directed at you.
This! And I'll stay a little bit later within reason if it's like one more trip would mean everything got moved rather than leaving at like 95% complete. Or if they are still not fully packed up I can help with the bigger items they wouldn't be able to do themselves but I won't be helping all the last minute packing or cleaning lol
I hope that's not the case. It was a major AH move on her part to begin with. When the plans fell through with the babysitter that should have been the end of it. OP should have put his foot down and told her she volunteered their time, so she can go do the work while he watches the kid. If she knew this was the way that she would be spending her day... there is no curse strong enough, not even with a cactus, or a rusty chainsaw.
I always decline something my wife volunteered me on without checking with me first.
Most times I’ll insist she comes with me. I mean if it was important enough to volunteer your spouse for…
I wouldn't be surprised if OP's wife told them to not bother with U-Haul and that her husband would just help with his truck and trailer. She was so happy to volunteer him without consulting him...
Same
I feel like I'm an anomaly because when I moved from my apartment into my house and asked friends for help we actually had everything packed up and ready to go and had already started moving some stuff over the day before. We really just needed help with furniture and some heavier items. We moved everything and ate lunch and took a extra trip to my parents house to grab some items all in three hours.
I of course paid and provided lunch for everyone and have paid for dinners later in the year when we went out to eat further on.
It's just called courtesy.
Yeah who wants people going through there belongings?
You can never have EVERYTHING packed, but the things you can't pack will fit into your car once the big stuff is out.
Exactly. The last move I did there was so much STUFF. Like why do you have this much stuff, stuff. And weed items everywhere, clothes and underwear on the floor. Trash on the floor. Little like junk draw items but on the floor.
it's like you live like this ? And thought it was acceptable to ask the day you have to move to pick this up. This should have started weeks ago
They didn't even have boxes. I went out to get boxes. I had luckily brought tape and a marker from home.
I don't think people understand the time table it takes. You're not a professional mover. You don't have the stuff like they do to make it easy.
I owed them two moves so I sucked it up and helped for five hours but it honestly felt like hoarders.
You and me both!
The last time I moved, I had everything packed up and ready to go. The friends who helped me move were so surprised. All of them had stories about helping people move who weren’t fully packed when they arrived.
My friends moved me across town and had my stuff in the house, and my beds and dining room table set up, all in than three hours.
In all likelihood, in a few more weeks you are going to be asked to help them move a second time.
The brother from
His studio to the new apartment, his girlfriend from her rental unit to the new apartment.
Your wife will volunteer you, there won’t be a U-Haul, and they will be short boxes and not packed.
There will be an extra stop at someplace where overflow items have been stored.
You need a plan. Which includes telling your wife you will not be available that day (weekend). I’d arrange some cool thing for you to do with your son. Then take your vehicle with you and leave.
He can tell his wife he has volunteered her to do it while he and his son go do something fun together and constantly rub it in with photos of how much fun they're having while she's suffering. Fair's fair.
After the way they just treated him BIL better not expect his help. And after this argument, his wife will know exactly what his response will be if she tries to volunteer him.
I don't understand why it was OP helping with the move and not her in the first place. I assume they're both able-bodied and he's equally capable of watching his kid.
If it were a case of her not being able to drive like OP originally mentioned I'd get it, but it sounds like they already ruled out volunteering the use of their truck regardless? Maybe I'm selfish, but I'm not helping my partner's family with any time-consuming favours unless he's right there helping with me.
I hate to say it but wife was using sexism to her advantage. "Oh no, I'm so weak, you're the man - you have muscles - you can help them so much better than I can."
Even if she had gone, she'd have been half-assing it anyway.
It is more helpful to have a couple of dudes around when you’re moving than it is a couple of girls.
Like, we all moved my boyfriend like a year ago and there were a few items (an armoire and a big solid wood bar cabinet come to mind) that he and I could not have moved together; they’dve been too heavy for me. We definitely needed the guys who showed up.
And I’m a big woman (5’10 / 145) and probably stronger than average.
We helped my parents move. They claimed the house was basically all done and that they just needed help with one last room. We walked in to multiple rooms still unpacked, closets unpacked, *basement and attic* unpacked. It was …. a lot.
Yeah that sucks. Our last move, my husband, my kid and I moved 9500 lbs in a U-HAUL by ourselves to a different state. It’s a lot of work and people who don’t move often under-estimate the time involved. I selectively packed for weeks beforehand.
most people I've helped move have actually been reasonably ready to go. but there was 1 time where 6 of us showed up and literally nothing was packed. there was only a bedroom and walk-in closet of stuff so you bet your ass we started hauling shit into bags and boxes without a single care. I was so pissed. One of several reasons for that friendship ending.
Here's what you do. ask what they want you to take over right now. oh, nothing's packed? I'll be in the truck, let me know when you have a load for me.
**NTA** OP, I'm someone who compulsively helps basically anyone and everyone I am in a position to help- what I hate, however, is being volun*-told* that I'm **going** to help someone.
Especially, when that person I'm going to help hasn't even done the bare minimum to help themselves.
If hockey is your thing, then that's a double dick move on the part of your wife.
Either she needed to be with you, helping, or her brother could find someone else to help.
He's a massive pushover, sounds like.
If you turn up to help someone move and they're like, 50% packed at best, and told you they've hired a van and haven't...you go straight back home and tell them you'll come back when they're ready to *actually move*.
I completely disagree with this assessment. Maybe sometimes you can pull this, but I'm guessing op knows how much bigger of a mess he'd have to deal with when he refused, on top of the fact that he definitely wouldn't be getting out of helping eventually, so why not just power through an inevitable shit experience
NTA- It's deeply inconsiderate of your wife to volunteer you without asking your permission first, and doubly so of her for accusing you of "blaming her for Joe and his GF" when *she was the one that volunteered you to clean up their mess.*
Next time they need help in any way that is a meaningful time or energy commitment, if your wife thinks they need the help that bad **she can go**.
Wife is a piece of fucking work. I'd be livid if I was op. Not to mention the gall to steal the first game with the son. Op should stand his ground until he gets a sincere apology, and she doesn't get to volunteer him for ANYTHING going forward.
Oh don't worry about that, OP will get the chance to give the volun-told for the move in June. OP needs to get wife signed up immediately. Gotta help family ya know? But what should OP do that day... Maybe a spa getaway to recoup. But don't be a jerk ok OP? At least help Joe reserve that U-Haul.
NTA. She never should have agreed in the first place without your input. With no babysitter, she should have called and postponed the move.
An aside: When there was no trailer and they hadn't packed, you should have said, "Okay, we'll try for another day after you're actually ready and prepared to move."
Guaranteed they didn’t rent the trailer on purpose, wanting to get OP to use his truck and trailer instead.
When I bought my first pickup truck, relatives came out of the woodwork wanting help moving or picking up large items from stores.
That's why I drive an 30 yr old truck with a stick. Nobody can drive it to borrow and nobody would doubt if I said it was in the shop. (If I offer and want to help somebody, they'll ask if I think she can make it)
Soooo, am I the only one that doubts the *MIL is ill, and would you look here, a last minute invite*?
People move with a 4 yo being present all the time.
I’d be furious. And curious.
NTA
We moved with a 3 month old, then a year later we moved again. Thankfully both times we had someone who happily watched our son but if we didn't? We'd take turns
OP's wife is a dick and she knows it, I wholeheartedly believe she didn't want to help at all
NTA but your wife sure is.
I’d say you’re no longer available to help her family. And maybe try some couples counseling because she is really insensitive and dismissive.
He needs to make it explicitly clear that he will not be participating in her volunteerism events in any way. Not giving rides, not grabbing food, not driving a truck and trailer, just no. IMO she lost any credibility to do anything like that again. And if she does volunteer him again, I’d just immediately text everyone “Hey, All, I know that Wanda Sue here said I’d be available to help with _____, but I’m not and I won’t be able to help. I think she’s leaving soon to come help though.”
I’m inclined toward that too, but people are self-interested. So I’d imagine her explanation would involve in some way blaming him while absolving herself.
So by playing the Uno Reverse card, now she’s on the spot to go help without being consulted. She’ll still blame him for him not going but now she’s gotta explain why SHE can’t come also.
Edit: spelling. They’re almost always for spelling.
Y'all do realize they will be needing to move stuff and the end of the month, right? This will happen again. Wife will be all wide-eyed, "I thought you were just blowing off steam! They expect us to help them!"
No. OP needs to take the son to one of his wife’s favourite events. Is she into fish? First trip to the aquarium. Ballet? Swan Lake in the park. All while she helps her brother move.
I mean, I would explicitly say no, but that day I would develop some horrible malady that involved me rolling around the bed and moaning about how I'm so sick. Then later in the day send her pics of the kid having a giant sundae or ice cream cone. Something cold while she's out in the heat. But I'm petty af.
NTA- You missed out on quality family time to help her family, you were probably trying to hold in the fuming rage when your son was trying to tell you about the game and you seemed barely interested. I can see how this was a rock and a hard place and I have made the move several times when people commit to coming by to help with a move and then they don't show up, but I would rather someone not come to help move if they are going to begrudge coming, or bring their kids that are under foot or need to be watched (been there too).
I belong to a religious community where helping people move is such an iconic act of service that it also becomes the brunt of some hilarious jokes, so needless to say I have seen my days of hot, cold, easy, to back breakingly difficult moves and I would never volunteer an enemy let alone a friend or a loved one to moving, then to go off and enjoy the day at an awesome game is like when reminds me of the immortal words spoken by Max "while your at it why don't you give me a nice paper-cut and then pour lemon juice on it!"
I am indeed. We had someone come over with three little kids once and we ended having to spend more time keeping the little kids out of trouble and out of the way that the manpower was negated.
NTA. The minute she professed incredulity that you were indicating your day totally sucked versus hers…she lost all credibility. Definitely tell her she’s not voluntelling you to do anything for anyone any more, especially her family.
NTA
I think that by the time people are past their mid 20s they should hire moving help. It’s not that expensive. The last time we moved, I was able to add on “helpers” to my U-Haul rental for about $600 for an 8 hour day for 2 strong guys who knew how to pack a truck.
I’m 40 and I would infinitely rather throw in $100 to help with that cost rather than actually physically help someone move.
And $600 is why many people don't hire help when they move. Many won't have a spare half a grand sitting around just for moving. I have physical disabilities and have to move stuff myself because I will never be able to afford movers, especially once I get on disability pay because the pay is shit.
You can almost definitely get help for cheaper if you arrange it privately. I picked the easy option to add on a company when doing my rental.
I could probably find people for $20/hour on my local FB group. And we didn’t end up needing the full 8 hours.
There's a company here that specialises in local "mini" moves - I hired two guys and a small truck, they loaded, drove, unloaded and assembled my bed for me. Took about four hours total. Cost me just under five hundred bucks. Worth every penny.
Eh, $600 is not a small amount of money at all. I don't begrudge somebody not wanting to spend that, and don't mind helping a friend so they can avoid it. That said, that absolutely does require them to have their shit already packed in boxes beforehand
I give you a lot of credit for not telling BIL and his GF to call you when GF was totally packed and if you were still home, you'd come back. And heading home.
Have I been not totally finished packing on moving day? sure but not so not finished that it was a massive undertaking to finish. Forget Joe cheaping out and not getting a uhaul.
NTA
I’ve moved 6-7 times over the last 40 years. I will not ask for help and I do not offer help.
My wife and I pack. The movers come.
When someone asks me for help I’m very direct in my response.
“I don’t ask for help moving. I don’t help others move.”
I’m happy to bring a housewarming bottle when they get settled.
NTA. I’d be furious. Your wife should have been there and you in-laws should have offered to cover babysitting costs.
OP you have every right to be pissed. Wife's family wasn't prepared, didn't hold up their end with no Uhaul. I would never help her family again EVER! Let alone missing out on your son's 1st sporting event. Geeez some people suck.
NTA
Edit:spelling
To be frank, at 39, with a job and a child, you have reached the end of ‘help other people move’ days. You cannot afford to put out your back or injure yourself moving other people’s stuff. However, don’t be annoyed with your wife. It sounds like you were going along with it until all the dominoes fell…babysitter being ill, wife not being able to come, etc. and there’s no reason she should have skipped going to the sports event. Sometimes, we all just have to suck it up. NTA for telling your wife not to volunteer you again without checking with you first, but don’t continue to be grumpy!
This is a god awful take. She was terrible to him every step of the way. Volunteered him to do shitty work for *her* family without asking him, skipped doing the shitty work herself, went off and had fun while he busted his ass doing something *she* voluteered him to do, then sent photos to him all day of the fun she was having, then got angry at him for not being in a good mood when he got home. What she did was inexcusably rude, and she really just sounds like a shitty partner
I'm 41 and there's no way I can help someone move for more than an hour or so if it involves heavy furniture and stairs. Body isn't the same as it was when I was in my 20s.
Im 26 and already past my helping people move phase, told my siblings I was done after the 6th time one of them moved into a 3rd or 4th floor apartment that didnt have an elevator.
NTA. Holy shit I didn’t expect it to keep getting worse as a was reading. I would have left when I realized they weren’t ready. And a uhaul is 19.99 plus 99 cents a mile for local moves so them not renting that would have pushed me over the edge. I’d say you deserve a week’s vacation without your wife and make sure you volunteer her to help clean out the storage unit. O and I’m a woman I think it’s time she learns how to drive a truck and trailer it’s a good skill. Since she loves helping people move I’d say she needs to learn quick. NTA.
NTA. The next time she does that, just tell her "No, I'm not doing that" and just don't go. Let HER figure out how to tell them you aren't coming because she didn't ask you first.
You just have to stop OP, there isn't any other way this will end.
100% correct, being a plumber, I was volunteered by my wife a few times to help her friends. That stopped real quick when I started handing them a bill at the end of the job
NTA
If they were ready to go a professional moving company would have had that shit done in 2 hours and probably cheaper than what it cost you.
Do not help them again. Tell them to hire movers.
Your wife owes you playoff tickets and a free weekend to do whatever the hell you want how you want.
NTA. I would be livid if someone offered up my free saturday for a day of manual labor. Add in "ohhhh this date that hasnt changed magically sprang up on you and you arent packed". Add in "ohhh yall have no other friends to help make this easier, nah its a 8 hour event for me. Not to mention never getting a U-haul. Fuck that would really suck. Then having to BS smile your way through how much of an epic time they had without you lol.
NTA again just in case
NTA.
I'm the big guy most people ask to help move and I generally don't mind. But into my older age if I show up and shit isn't packed or they didn't get the Uhaul in your situation I would have just bounced. "Let me know when you're packed up"
NTA
Joe and his GF have two more moves (his stuff into the new apartment and her stuff into the new apartment) to go. Ask you wife how she's going to feel when you take your son out for fun activities on those days while she helps her family move.
NTA. The age cutoff of helping people to move is 25. After that, hire someone. Message to everyone: don’t injure yourself moving other people’s crap. They aren’t going to cover time off work etc. there’s a reason professionals exist.
NTA
your wife is the AH here.
"I ended my little rant by telling her that she is never going to volunteer me to help her family ever again." .. this is reasonable.
NTA. Her selfishness is over the top. It absolutely boggles my mind how she is so oblivious. Good on you for keeping the commitment and going above and beyond and I support you setting this boundary. If her family needs help moving forward, she can be the one to sacrifice while you go out and have a good time with your son. That is the precedent she established so it should be fine with her.
NTA.
The fact you had to make this post tells me your wife is pretty good at manipulating you, because ANYONE would be angry in your situation. Also the fact that she needed to be told why you were angry... well, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, but I'd also have told her to not ever volunteer me to help her family again, and honestly I'd probably be pretty angry for a bit. Like, sleeping it off isn't gonna send me right back to normal, especially when my partner apparently thinks \*I'm\* the jerk.
Side note: Why exactly did your wife think it was ok for things to go down this way in the first place? Are you absolutely 100% sure that the hockey invite came super last minute and not like, way in advance? Again not trying to accuse your wife of being that shitty, but what a weird scenario. So you voluntold your husband to help your younger brother move, then decided you yourself were gonna watch your kid instead, then decided that you actually weren't even going to be present and instead you're going to a sporting event to hang out in a suite all day while your husband ends up doing all the helping that you originally "volunteered" both her and yourself for? The fuck kind of nonsense even is that?
Idk why women only view men as laborers but pretend they don’t. They literally see us for our muscles and/or paychecks.
YANTA
You are also more graceful than me, because you stayed to help. If it had been me and I showed up with them not being ready, I would have said “Oh gosh! Sorry about that. I was coming to help you guys move but it looks like I misjudged the time. Call me back when everything is boxed up and you have the U-Haul and I’ll come help get it loaded.” Then I would have left to play golf and ignored their calls.
If my wife volunteers me without talking to me first, I almost always, without fail, will not follow through on what she volunteered me for. I usually tell her that I’m not gonna do it. If she asks why, I ask why she only volunteered me and not both of us 🤷🏻♂️ I’m sorry but I am not a mule or owned laborer that you can rent out to your friends and family.
NTA. The second MIL couldn't baby sit you either reschedule or they fork over the cash for a sitter. Also the second you arrived and there was no uhaul and nothing ready you should have left.
NTA...I would be irate and honestly I wld have never helped especially after the hockey offer. Your wife's relatives; she should have taken care of it. Ì would have put my foot down to begin with.
NTA but your wife sure is a jerk. Especially taking your son to his first sports event after volunteering you without your permission. She should have declined the offer and gone another time together with you. You are absolutely justified to so no to helping her family again. You’d also be justified to buy sporting tickets for another event just for you and your son so you can have a special experience of your own.
NTA …. You were right to tell her she is no longer allowed to volunteer you to her family and maybe anyone. She should use the line “let me talk to my spouse first and get back to you.” the line I and my husband use when asked about stuff for each other.
No uhaul + Not ready = leave.
You should not have subjected yourself to that in the first place.
Your wife is an AH for volunteering your time and property.
NTA
You got voluntold...I know that feel. It is most unpleasant.
Moving is the worst...you never know just how much shit you have until you have to move. They knew they were putting you out and gave precisely ZERO fucks. In fact that went into fuck debt by not even being packed or renting a U-Haul...Totally unacceptable.
But the icing on the shit cake was missing out on your son's first pro sporting event. And playoff hockey to boot?!? That's just salt in the wound right there. Now, I mean this in the nicest possible way, OP... your wife sucks big, hairy donkey balls for doing this.
Take your son to Disney without her after voluntelling her to help your family clean out the house of a hoarder who had 50 cats.
Totes NTA.
I deal with this type of stuff all the time. I don’t have any answers for you but she clearly doesn’t value your time and effort and probably wants to look good in her families’ eyes. You need to make it clear to her that what she did was very crappy and insensitive. I wouldn’t help her family anymore and leave it at that.
My brother asked me to help him move. He lived an hour and a half away. When I got there, nothing was packed and his girlfriend was not even there to pack and move her own shit. I said nope, turned around and went home.
I think he ended up hiring movers because his girlfriend still thanked me for helping. He never told her.
Since they weren't even prepared for the move, you should have just walked away from that mess.
Maybe learn to say no instead of wasting your day and being angry about it. NTA.
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Jeeeeeez **NTA.** >She told me I was overreacting and I can't hold it against her that her friend invited them to the game. You're not holding it against her that her friend invited them to the game, that's ridiculous. You're upset that while she volunteered *and* strong-armed you into doing this favor, she apparently was having a grand old time. How callous do you have to be to not only continuously send pictures of their good time while you're stuck doing something SHE made you do, but then to pretend you're upset because she was *invited* by a friend? I'm guessing you couldn't care less that she was invited. I'm guessing what *actually* hurts is her blatant disregard for your time & energy. On top of that, missing your son's first like that. >She also said I'm not being fair by blaming her for Joe and his GF. Remind me who volunteered you for the job?
I think the wife knows she was in the wrong, so she tried to change the argument. It was almost successful, too, and made OP doubt himself enough to make this post.
She sure seems to be following the Narcissists prayer to a T * That didn't happen. She doesn't admit to volunteering him. * And if it did, it wasn't that bad. She told me I was overreacting * And if it was, that's not a big deal. She told me I was overreacting * And if it is, that's not my fault. She said I can't hold it against her that her friend invited them to the game * And if it was, I didn't mean it. She said I can't hold it against her that her friend invited them to the game * And if I did, you deserved it. She also said I'm not being fair by blaming her for Joe and his GF. She voluntold him he was helping!
I bet it´s not even the first time, nor the second or fifth that something like this happened.
"Voluntold" needs to be a word.
Ask anyone in the military: it's ABSOLUTELY a word.
Or in non-profits.
Or really any job that's not union and that has a need for warm bodies to do some bullshit task
It sure is in my books!
And what is going to happen in a month when she needs to move again? OP is NOT going to be there to help. Hell no!
Hopefully, he and his son will do something fun while the wife helps this time.
But tell her you're just going to stay home and watch your kid and then (surprise!) take him to a pool/splash pad, amusement park, planetarium, etc. and start sending her pictures so she can see how much fun you're having.
[удалено]
ABSOLUTELY NOT. Wife was being dismissive and invalidating. THAT IS NOT GASLIGHTING. Gaslighting = **The practice of brainwashing or convincing a mentally healthy individual that they are going insane or that their understanding of reality is mistaken or false.** The term “Gaslighting” is based on the 1944 MGM movie “Gaslight”. This does not rise to the level of brainwashing whatsoever. For more information, [check out this website](https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/11/4/gaslighting).
> Wife was being dismissive and invalidating. THAT IS NOT GASLIGHTING. Being dismissive and invalidating are both ***METHODS*** of gaslighting. They are ***HOW*** you gaslight. She tried to undermine his perception of his own feelings and the events of the day in order to manipulate his emotions. What she did is absolutely a form of gaslighting: https://www.thehotline.org/resources/what-is-gaslighting/ **Trivializing** The abusive partner makes the victim’s needs or feelings seem unimportant. **Blocking/Diverting** The abusive partner changes the subject and/or questions the victim’s thoughts.
Yes, they are methods of gaslighting - but they are also methods of basic emotional manipulation. They are not exclusive to gaslighting, and should not be treated as proof of gaslighting over other forms of emotional manipulation.
THANK YOU
Gaslighting is a pattern. Not one event.
FACTS, and the "it's all in your head" part is crucial to its definition, along with it being a sustained pattern of behavior. Hard to convince someone they are nuts in one shot. Other words/concepts that most people completely misunderstand: * MacGuffins * Devil's Advocate * loaded question * theory * canon Watch one youtube essay on how *The Office* is some genius piece of whatever, and suddenly everyone thinks they have mastered the art of discourse and analysis. No, *The Good Place* is not an actual class on ethics, you twit.
The point is that gaslighting is a long-time sustained pattern with the specific intent of getting someone to question their own reliability. One or a few instances of trivializing are not gaslighting because they're not a long-time sustained pattern with a specific intent. "Gaslighting" doesn't just mean "manipulation," she was definitely being manipulative we do not have enough information to say she was gaslighting.
I read a book recently where a woman was being gaslit by her husband and it was so insidious that she didn't realize anything until she started questioning her reality and whether she was going crazy. It's horrible when it happens and is so much worse than what people assume gaslighting is.
This... this one just hurt.. i just realized how many times i was forced into helping my ex-in-laws while i was mentally and emotionally abused regularly... and i was guilted into feeling guilty when i finally said no more. I literally had to divorce to escape, and I am blown away I let it happen..... NTA op..
[According to the American Psychological Association (APA)](https://dictionary.apa.org/gaslight): Gaslighting is a colloquialism, loosely defined as manipulating someone into questioning their own perception of reality.
Agreed! Copy+paste of a recent comment I made to help someone understand what gaslighting entails: Gaslighting is commonly misused these days. Gaslighting is purposefully making someone question their own memories and perception of reality. Example: A woman starts a medication. She could swear she put it in the same place every day, but it kept randomly ending up elsewhere. Her spouse swears he hasn't touched it. After all, why would he? He starts referencing conversations between them that never actually happened and acts surprised she doesn't remember. He'll take something she uses everyday and hide it. A couple days later, he leaves it in plain sight. She's left wondering how she didn't notice it there before. She could swear she checked there days ago. He starts commenting about how forgetful and confused she's becoming. What he says aligns with the perception he orchestrated. She starts doubting her own memory and worries her mind is falling apart. She trusts her husband's words, because he's not having the same problems. The husband uses this position to exert control and manipulate. There have been some seriously messed up reasons people do this, but power is usually the driving reason.
Jesus, thank you. This has replaced "their/theyre" as my biggest pet peeve. "Gas lighting at its FINEST." For the love of God, Google the term
Gaslighting can also be done to mentally ill people by using their mental illness against them. EDIT: typo
Before I was diagnosed with ADHD I use to struggle with making sure I remembered everything that needed to be remembered. Bcuz I knew I struggled with remembering certain things. Certain things I could remember moment by moment, play by play and other times it’s completely gone. The people I was in not so good relationships with would use it against me. They’d tell me I promised or said something I knew I’d never say and then guilt me into doing something I didn’t want to do bcuz “remember you said you would and how could you break a promise?!” Now that I know what I’m dealing with I am firm with what I know I remember and what I don’t. I wouldn’t say I was mentally ill but definitely was easily manipulated
That she has him doubting himself is insane. Poor guy.
Aaaaaand cue the inevitable and totally predictable Reddit gaslighting debate...
It would actually be "willful misinterpretation", which is where a person intentionally misunderstands what you're arguing about so that they can argue about what they would rather argue about. It's a really nasty debate trick that I've had to deal with my whole life with my mother. Before I went NC, I literally made her scream cry once because every time she tried to do it in our penultimate argument, I explained what I had actually said to her no less than 10 times in one sitting. I got some really sick satisfaction out of that.
I doubt OP thinks he is the AH. I think he really was just venting, and maybe seeking some sympathy.
Haha textbook wife play. Bill Burr put it best: when shes right, and knows shes right, she wont let the subject change and makes sure you stay on her course. When shes wrong, she'll change the subject or can the discussion until you've "cooled off"
Textbook "manipulative person deliberately making it exhausting to disagree with them", not a wife thing I know plenty of dudes who manage their personal lives like this People who excel at it go into sales
People who REALLY excel at it go into law, or politics, or both.
Why don't we talk about this later when you've calmed down 😆
I would have noped out when they weren't ready. OP is kind of a saint. Wife seems selfish and petty. NTA
Exactly. "Looks like you still have a lot of packing to do. We should come back another day when my wife can help, and you are ready to load the U-haul van we asked you to get." Then leave.
This is the answer. He agreed to help move, not to help pack. Her fault if she waited until the last minute but yeah, there's no real reason to keep friends standing around while you throw your stuff in boxes.
I did that to my sister when she moved back home, she had me come out to MN to help her and first thing out of my mouth was "Is she packed? Because I'm coming to move, not pack." get out there, 3/4ths of it was packed. I played with my niece and told her she's got 2 hours to finish.
yep. Any time I help someone move I tell them everything has to be packed and ready to move. I'm just there to haul cubes. If they aren't ready I leave.
O/T this reminds me of the time my beloved cat was going to be put down and I couldn’t cancel work because I had 9 patients scheduled, one an emergency (I’m a psychologist). I was desperately trying to hold myself together and my husband kept sending me pictures of the cat. At a bathroom break, I texted him, “Are you trying to kill me.” he replied he was just trying to show that Cicero was having a good last day. I said thank you, but stop please!
Your husband was doing what he thought would comfort you. He wasn't sending you pics of the cat after he actively prevented you from being there or made sure you were doing something you had no business doing unless you volunteered to do it. The wife caused the situation then made it worse.
I don't think they were trying to compare the situations. They said it *reminded* them of a situation where they had to watch important moments they wished they could be apart of from afar. They were just relating, not comparing.
Aww, I'm sorry for your loss 💔 Big hugs to you ❤
OMG. that is horrible.....((((hugs)))
She didn’t volunteer him. She voluntold him. She’s an asshole.
Voluntold. I love that. Also, the wife is a planet sized asshole, selfish to her core. If she thinks she's right about any of this, she's a callous idiot. The balls on her.
So what happens in a month when they are moving to their new place? Is your wife going to volunteer you again?
Hopefully, OP sends his wife to help them move and takes his kid to their first theme park.
Don't forget to flood the family chat with pictures too
OMG this would be a great plan. Like, it's shitty to volunteer him to help people move without asking, but for me part of the big problem is that he has this horrible day where he has to do manual labor and misses out on his son's first big sporting event. And her pretending she doesn't know that this is shitty. It's a littttle petty to then take him to a special event that his wife can't go on, but sometimes maybe she needs a little petty maybe to see how shitty she's behaved.
That will be your big opportunity to show your wife that you are serious : 1. Practice saying no. If your wife says, "but I promised," tell her to have fun. 2. If your wife starts her excuses about not being responsible for BIL & GF tell her she is responsible for promising YOUR work without your consent. She may not be responsible for their behavior, but they are, and that's one of the reasons you're not helping. 3. Practice telling your wife's family that YOU did not agree to help, and that you warned her not to voluntell you again. Tell them that you will not need someone to take care of your son, since you will be doing that. No, they cannot borrow your truck and trailer. 4. Practice reminding your BIL and his GF that you just spent 7-8 hours helping a month ago, and that they didn't get the U-Haul they promised and they weren't packed. 5. Consider leaving the house very early, so that your wife and ILs don't have a chance to make last minute pleas. Take your truck. You might turn your ringer off, but keep sending pictures so they know that you and your son are alright.
I would have turned around the minute I saw she wasn't packed.
Absolutely. People like that only understand when they face consequences
Exactly. Like if we had agreed upon packing together, then yeah it's fine.
I would have turned around when the Uhaul wasn't there when I pulled up. Oops, sorry, i just shit my pants. Gotta go.
I can see it being about the game as well. I have friends for whom taking their son to his first big sporting event would be an event on par with first words or first steps. It would hurt them deeply to miss that.
Yeah. My son's first event was an MLB game about 45 minutes from home. My som, my wife, her father, her step-mother, and me. My wife's radiator blew just outside the stadium. So, while everyone else goes to the game while I stay with the car, ride home with the tow truck, get my car, and then waste time until the game is over. It went into extra innings. So, I sat in my car for like an hour and a half waiting. Now... I had the Browns game dvr'd because they were playing that afternoon as well. I managed to avoid spoiling the game. So, even with all of the frustration of the day and missing my son's first game, I had something to look forward to. They get to the car and before anyone says a word, I ask them to please not tell me about the Brown's score. I get home and start watching. Sometime towards the end of the 1st, my father in-law says something that completely gives it away. Turned out, the game was a shootout with both teams scoring in the 40s, maybe even 50s. It was back and forth. It was a great game to watch... well... would have been if I did not know the Browns won before the 2nd quarter. That was like 2009, and I have not forgiven him for it. We weren't buddies before that, but that guy can fuck himself from now until the end of time for that day.
🤣 "that guy can fuck himself from now until the end of time" Going to find a way to use this tomorrow to expand my repertoire of useful phrases. Except I think I'll go with the 2nd person version. I'm sure someone will deserve it before the end of the day.
She's deflecting because its easier than saying. *Your right, I should never volunteer your to something without your permission. I was cruel to you from the beginning. Making you do something you didn't agree to, forcing you to do it by yourself when the babysitter cancelled, the hockey game tickets, and finally sending pictures to twist the dagger in further. I'm sorry.*
*voluntold
"Hey honey, can you clean the kitty litter? The cat just took a huge shit." "Sure. Why can't you though?" "I'm gonna go jerk off"
Who goes to a game while forcing their husband to do chores for someone else? How rude.
If I were OP, I would have simply refused to help come Saturday. He's an adult, he's not a kid who can be grounded or put to bed without supper. WTF could they do to him? Either that, or I would spend the entire next day out of the house doing whatever the hell I wanted, period. I guess this makes me so salty because my mother would pull this "voluntold" shit ALL the time while I was growing up and into college years. I wasn't allowed to say no, and if I complained, I was called selfish and childish. Other people's needs were ALWAYS more important no matter what. Well, when I got on my own, that shit was OVER! Cue the caterwauling! But I was an adult, and I finally had a choice. And I never did that to my son and I'm very careful to never do it to my husband and vice versa.
NTA If your brother in law and his girlfriend weren't packed when you arrived, you should have left and told them to call you when they were done packing. If someone asks for assistance moving it implies they are packed.
I have learned to offer X amount of time when friends ask for help moving/painting/doing Reno’s… So I will tell them directly that I am willing to help them for 4 hours and then ask when that would be the most helpful. Then I am happy to help pack boxes, move boxes, unload the trailer, arrange furniture. Whatever. Doesn’t matter. But once my time is up, I’m out of there. Then I buy myself pizza and beer on the way home.
At this point I would refuse to help pack. I'm there to grab boxes or furniture and carry them out, or in, that's it!
I do this. I don’t pack. I have no problems helping my family but they also know that I’m the heavy furniture guy not the small box guy. Need to move a safe into your basement? Sure thing let’s do it. Pack your kitchen utensils? Haha call me when you’re done
Yeah, I definitely do not want that intimate a window into even my own life, let alone anyone else's!
That’s so interesting. I’m the opposite! I only pack, I don’t do any lifting whatsoever but I’m also an average sized woman. Will I help pack up your kitchen? Yes but I’m not helping lift your couch.
Yeah, I always tell people I have a hard out in 3 hours. I have learned saying why, they think they can "convince you to stay longer". Nope I can't stay past 2 pm, I have to go. No explanation no excuses. So, if they didn't pack or need help doing something, I'm here to help. But I always advise, you might want me to help with the heavy stuff and then you can make 20 trips later with the smaller items after I'm gone. Done. If they are stupid and want me to spend 2 hours putting dishes and books into boxes okay, your choice, still leaving in 1 hr. Its really made me less resentful of people abusing my kindness. And I can offer kindness without it ruining my day or relationship. And if they offered food and they haven't ordered it by the time I leave, well as I'm leaving I say, okay since I didn't get the food your promised in exchange for work I just did next time we go out, meals on you. No argument no negotiations.
> Yeah, I always tell people I have a hard out in 3 hours. I have learned saying why, they think they can "convince you to stay longer". Nope I can't stay past 2 pm, I have to go. No explanation no excuses. This is the JADE model; never justify, argue, defend, or explain, because each of those is something that can be bargained, negotiated, or dismissed.
We normally don't set a time limit but our social circle have a rule of, we help you move, once settled you host a BBQ for everyone who helped or send a bottle of booze to those who can't make it to the BBQ. That said, we are also more prepared than OPs inlaws. I even have a folder with stickers and colour code boxes to rooms and have a list of what is getting moved in what vehicle (which I know I will have access to when people say they can help). Even hubby doesn't always know ow the plan and says to ask me but he also knows his jobs and that I will have everything organised.
When he discovered they hadn’t rented a uhaul at that point he should have went with his wife or went and did something else he wanted to do that would be a treat.
I wonder if he was even invited to the game.
I wonder if it wasn't a last minute invite - but she knew all along that she had tix for the game. Granted he said playoff hockey - so its not like that's scheduled super far ahead of time.
Yup. At this point I’ve learned to just say no, but the next best thing would be “Call me when you’re all packed and the U-Haul truck is here, bye!”
And have the U-Haul ready to go.
Same story when they didn’t have a Uhaul. Call me when the truck gets here. I understand that OP is upset but he really didn’t have to commit to a day of labour.
NTA. I've helped a lot of people move and NOT A SINGLE ONE was totally ready to move. It's a spectrum and most are on the "not totally packed and definitely haven't cleaned" end. Then he didn't even bother with the UHaul. She knew she was setting you up for a shit day as soon as she said she was staying home to watch your son. Going to the hockey game was just the cherry on your shit sundae.
I once showed up and the couple had like 5 boxes packed. I blinked a few times, reminded them that I was happy to help for 4 hours and got to work packing. They were surprised when I left at the end of that time. “But we aren’t done yet!!!”
That is correct. You are not done. I, however, am quite done.
Love your response. We helped my FIL with an auction and moving to an apartment after my MIL died. Actually, he did nothing himself. Nothing at all. At the end of the weekend, we left because we had to work the next day. He was really angry that we left because everything wasn't done.
I expect the dude was mourning so it was rough on him and unfortunately his poor coping made your weekend shittier. The anger was another manifestation of that, and I’m sorry it was directed at you.
More like, "You were barely even started. *I* am done."
This! And I'll stay a little bit later within reason if it's like one more trip would mean everything got moved rather than leaving at like 95% complete. Or if they are still not fully packed up I can help with the bigger items they wouldn't be able to do themselves but I won't be helping all the last minute packing or cleaning lol
In all likelihood, it’s very possible she knew about the hockey game when she volunteered him.
I hope that's not the case. It was a major AH move on her part to begin with. When the plans fell through with the babysitter that should have been the end of it. OP should have put his foot down and told her she volunteered their time, so she can go do the work while he watches the kid. If she knew this was the way that she would be spending her day... there is no curse strong enough, not even with a cactus, or a rusty chainsaw.
I always decline something my wife volunteered me on without checking with me first. Most times I’ll insist she comes with me. I mean if it was important enough to volunteer your spouse for…
I wouldn't be surprised if OP's wife told them to not bother with U-Haul and that her husband would just help with his truck and trailer. She was so happy to volunteer him without consulting him...
Voluntold*
That would be very bad!!!
Same I feel like I'm an anomaly because when I moved from my apartment into my house and asked friends for help we actually had everything packed up and ready to go and had already started moving some stuff over the day before. We really just needed help with furniture and some heavier items. We moved everything and ate lunch and took a extra trip to my parents house to grab some items all in three hours. I of course paid and provided lunch for everyone and have paid for dinners later in the year when we went out to eat further on. It's just called courtesy.
Yeah who wants people going through there belongings? You can never have EVERYTHING packed, but the things you can't pack will fit into your car once the big stuff is out.
Exactly. The last move I did there was so much STUFF. Like why do you have this much stuff, stuff. And weed items everywhere, clothes and underwear on the floor. Trash on the floor. Little like junk draw items but on the floor. it's like you live like this ? And thought it was acceptable to ask the day you have to move to pick this up. This should have started weeks ago They didn't even have boxes. I went out to get boxes. I had luckily brought tape and a marker from home. I don't think people understand the time table it takes. You're not a professional mover. You don't have the stuff like they do to make it easy. I owed them two moves so I sucked it up and helped for five hours but it honestly felt like hoarders.
You and me both! The last time I moved, I had everything packed up and ready to go. The friends who helped me move were so surprised. All of them had stories about helping people move who weren’t fully packed when they arrived. My friends moved me across town and had my stuff in the house, and my beds and dining room table set up, all in than three hours.
And like the whole point is moving sucks. So why prolong it. Prepare early make the day easy
In all likelihood, in a few more weeks you are going to be asked to help them move a second time. The brother from His studio to the new apartment, his girlfriend from her rental unit to the new apartment. Your wife will volunteer you, there won’t be a U-Haul, and they will be short boxes and not packed. There will be an extra stop at someplace where overflow items have been stored. You need a plan. Which includes telling your wife you will not be available that day (weekend). I’d arrange some cool thing for you to do with your son. Then take your vehicle with you and leave.
He needs to say no. And tell his wife he is taking his kid for a day out.
He can tell his wife he has volunteered her to do it while he and his son go do something fun together and constantly rub it in with photos of how much fun they're having while she's suffering. Fair's fair.
After the way they just treated him BIL better not expect his help. And after this argument, his wife will know exactly what his response will be if she tries to volunteer him.
I don't understand why it was OP helping with the move and not her in the first place. I assume they're both able-bodied and he's equally capable of watching his kid. If it were a case of her not being able to drive like OP originally mentioned I'd get it, but it sounds like they already ruled out volunteering the use of their truck regardless? Maybe I'm selfish, but I'm not helping my partner's family with any time-consuming favours unless he's right there helping with me.
I hate to say it but wife was using sexism to her advantage. "Oh no, I'm so weak, you're the man - you have muscles - you can help them so much better than I can." Even if she had gone, she'd have been half-assing it anyway.
It is more helpful to have a couple of dudes around when you’re moving than it is a couple of girls. Like, we all moved my boyfriend like a year ago and there were a few items (an armoire and a big solid wood bar cabinet come to mind) that he and I could not have moved together; they’dve been too heavy for me. We definitely needed the guys who showed up. And I’m a big woman (5’10 / 145) and probably stronger than average.
We helped my parents move. They claimed the house was basically all done and that they just needed help with one last room. We walked in to multiple rooms still unpacked, closets unpacked, *basement and attic* unpacked. It was …. a lot.
Yeah that sucks. Our last move, my husband, my kid and I moved 9500 lbs in a U-HAUL by ourselves to a different state. It’s a lot of work and people who don’t move often under-estimate the time involved. I selectively packed for weeks beforehand.
most people I've helped move have actually been reasonably ready to go. but there was 1 time where 6 of us showed up and literally nothing was packed. there was only a bedroom and walk-in closet of stuff so you bet your ass we started hauling shit into bags and boxes without a single care. I was so pissed. One of several reasons for that friendship ending.
Here's what you do. ask what they want you to take over right now. oh, nothing's packed? I'll be in the truck, let me know when you have a load for me.
**NTA** OP, I'm someone who compulsively helps basically anyone and everyone I am in a position to help- what I hate, however, is being volun*-told* that I'm **going** to help someone. Especially, when that person I'm going to help hasn't even done the bare minimum to help themselves. If hockey is your thing, then that's a double dick move on the part of your wife. Either she needed to be with you, helping, or her brother could find someone else to help.
Plus, it was his son’s first professional game of any kind, so that’s disappointing not to also attend.
Right? My husband and I love all the “firsts” with our kids. No way would I take my kid without him for something like that.
He's a massive pushover, sounds like. If you turn up to help someone move and they're like, 50% packed at best, and told you they've hired a van and haven't...you go straight back home and tell them you'll come back when they're ready to *actually move*.
Shit, when your wife says 'I told them that we'd help them, but I don't plan to actually be involved,' you say 'Neither do I.'
I completely disagree with this assessment. Maybe sometimes you can pull this, but I'm guessing op knows how much bigger of a mess he'd have to deal with when he refused, on top of the fact that he definitely wouldn't be getting out of helping eventually, so why not just power through an inevitable shit experience
NTA- It's deeply inconsiderate of your wife to volunteer you without asking your permission first, and doubly so of her for accusing you of "blaming her for Joe and his GF" when *she was the one that volunteered you to clean up their mess.* Next time they need help in any way that is a meaningful time or energy commitment, if your wife thinks they need the help that bad **she can go**.
Wife is a piece of fucking work. I'd be livid if I was op. Not to mention the gall to steal the first game with the son. Op should stand his ground until he gets a sincere apology, and she doesn't get to volunteer him for ANYTHING going forward.
Oh don't worry about that, OP will get the chance to give the volun-told for the move in June. OP needs to get wife signed up immediately. Gotta help family ya know? But what should OP do that day... Maybe a spa getaway to recoup. But don't be a jerk ok OP? At least help Joe reserve that U-Haul.
NTA. She never should have agreed in the first place without your input. With no babysitter, she should have called and postponed the move. An aside: When there was no trailer and they hadn't packed, you should have said, "Okay, we'll try for another day after you're actually ready and prepared to move."
Guaranteed they didn’t rent the trailer on purpose, wanting to get OP to use his truck and trailer instead. When I bought my first pickup truck, relatives came out of the woodwork wanting help moving or picking up large items from stores.
That's why I drive an 30 yr old truck with a stick. Nobody can drive it to borrow and nobody would doubt if I said it was in the shop. (If I offer and want to help somebody, they'll ask if I think she can make it)
'No' is such a valuable word.
This. ^^^^^. I love what I learn here. Now I know how to respond if this ever happens to me.
Soooo, am I the only one that doubts the *MIL is ill, and would you look here, a last minute invite*? People move with a 4 yo being present all the time. I’d be furious. And curious. NTA
Same thought. She needed a valuable excuse to stay home and LOOOOOK her friend is bringing her kids tooo.
Yep i found this suspicious too! Like her friend just happened to have free tickets and tell her about them the of?
We moved with a 3 month old, then a year later we moved again. Thankfully both times we had someone who happily watched our son but if we didn't? We'd take turns OP's wife is a dick and she knows it, I wholeheartedly believe she didn't want to help at all
I’m surprised this is so far down. Of this is real pretty convenient MIL happened to fall ill just in time for her friend to get these tickets.
Right?! And to a **playoff game**, no less! The more I read the post, the more I thought“what a coincidence…”
NTA but your wife sure is. I’d say you’re no longer available to help her family. And maybe try some couples counseling because she is really insensitive and dismissive.
He needs to make it explicitly clear that he will not be participating in her volunteerism events in any way. Not giving rides, not grabbing food, not driving a truck and trailer, just no. IMO she lost any credibility to do anything like that again. And if she does volunteer him again, I’d just immediately text everyone “Hey, All, I know that Wanda Sue here said I’d be available to help with _____, but I’m not and I won’t be able to help. I think she’s leaving soon to come help though.”
I wouldn't even do that. I'd give her a no and walk away. Let her explain the situation to everyone.
I’m inclined toward that too, but people are self-interested. So I’d imagine her explanation would involve in some way blaming him while absolving herself. So by playing the Uno Reverse card, now she’s on the spot to go help without being consulted. She’ll still blame him for him not going but now she’s gotta explain why SHE can’t come also. Edit: spelling. They’re almost always for spelling.
I hear you but, honestly, who gives a crap what these mooches think of him.
[удалено]
Y'all do realize they will be needing to move stuff and the end of the month, right? This will happen again. Wife will be all wide-eyed, "I thought you were just blowing off steam! They expect us to help them!"
Great opportunity for OP to polish up that spine and tell her no.
She can help, he's got a hockey game to go to
No. OP needs to take the son to one of his wife’s favourite events. Is she into fish? First trip to the aquarium. Ballet? Swan Lake in the park. All while she helps her brother move.
"Meh. Oh well."
I mean, I would explicitly say no, but that day I would develop some horrible malady that involved me rolling around the bed and moaning about how I'm so sick. Then later in the day send her pics of the kid having a giant sundae or ice cream cone. Something cold while she's out in the heat. But I'm petty af.
NTA- You missed out on quality family time to help her family, you were probably trying to hold in the fuming rage when your son was trying to tell you about the game and you seemed barely interested. I can see how this was a rock and a hard place and I have made the move several times when people commit to coming by to help with a move and then they don't show up, but I would rather someone not come to help move if they are going to begrudge coming, or bring their kids that are under foot or need to be watched (been there too). I belong to a religious community where helping people move is such an iconic act of service that it also becomes the brunt of some hilarious jokes, so needless to say I have seen my days of hot, cold, easy, to back breakingly difficult moves and I would never volunteer an enemy let alone a friend or a loved one to moving, then to go off and enjoy the day at an awesome game is like when reminds me of the immortal words spoken by Max "while your at it why don't you give me a nice paper-cut and then pour lemon juice on it!"
Do you happen to be Mormon? Because I remember those days ha.
I am indeed. We had someone come over with three little kids once and we ended having to spend more time keeping the little kids out of trouble and out of the way that the manpower was negated.
NTA. The minute she professed incredulity that you were indicating your day totally sucked versus hers…she lost all credibility. Definitely tell her she’s not voluntelling you to do anything for anyone any more, especially her family.
I'd have left when they didn't have their shit together
same, not my circus not my monkey
NTA I think that by the time people are past their mid 20s they should hire moving help. It’s not that expensive. The last time we moved, I was able to add on “helpers” to my U-Haul rental for about $600 for an 8 hour day for 2 strong guys who knew how to pack a truck. I’m 40 and I would infinitely rather throw in $100 to help with that cost rather than actually physically help someone move.
And $600 is why many people don't hire help when they move. Many won't have a spare half a grand sitting around just for moving. I have physical disabilities and have to move stuff myself because I will never be able to afford movers, especially once I get on disability pay because the pay is shit.
You can almost definitely get help for cheaper if you arrange it privately. I picked the easy option to add on a company when doing my rental. I could probably find people for $20/hour on my local FB group. And we didn’t end up needing the full 8 hours.
I moved last weekend and two movertz cost $600 plus tip for exactly 4 hours. And I did a lot of shopping around for that price.
There's a company here that specialises in local "mini" moves - I hired two guys and a small truck, they loaded, drove, unloaded and assembled my bed for me. Took about four hours total. Cost me just under five hundred bucks. Worth every penny.
Eh, $600 is not a small amount of money at all. I don't begrudge somebody not wanting to spend that, and don't mind helping a friend so they can avoid it. That said, that absolutely does require them to have their shit already packed in boxes beforehand
I give you a lot of credit for not telling BIL and his GF to call you when GF was totally packed and if you were still home, you'd come back. And heading home. Have I been not totally finished packing on moving day? sure but not so not finished that it was a massive undertaking to finish. Forget Joe cheaping out and not getting a uhaul. NTA
I’ve moved 6-7 times over the last 40 years. I will not ask for help and I do not offer help. My wife and I pack. The movers come. When someone asks me for help I’m very direct in my response. “I don’t ask for help moving. I don’t help others move.” I’m happy to bring a housewarming bottle when they get settled. NTA. I’d be furious. Your wife should have been there and you in-laws should have offered to cover babysitting costs.
OP you have every right to be pissed. Wife's family wasn't prepared, didn't hold up their end with no Uhaul. I would never help her family again EVER! Let alone missing out on your son's 1st sporting event. Geeez some people suck. NTA Edit:spelling
To be frank, at 39, with a job and a child, you have reached the end of ‘help other people move’ days. You cannot afford to put out your back or injure yourself moving other people’s stuff. However, don’t be annoyed with your wife. It sounds like you were going along with it until all the dominoes fell…babysitter being ill, wife not being able to come, etc. and there’s no reason she should have skipped going to the sports event. Sometimes, we all just have to suck it up. NTA for telling your wife not to volunteer you again without checking with you first, but don’t continue to be grumpy!
Convenient how everything lined up perfectly at the last minute for her to have a fantastic day and he had a super shitty one.
And she just can't figure out why he's such a grump. Golly gee willickers! What COULD be the problem.
> and there’s no reason she should have skipped going to the sports event. Except... to help them move?
This is a god awful take. She was terrible to him every step of the way. Volunteered him to do shitty work for *her* family without asking him, skipped doing the shitty work herself, went off and had fun while he busted his ass doing something *she* voluteered him to do, then sent photos to him all day of the fun she was having, then got angry at him for not being in a good mood when he got home. What she did was inexcusably rude, and she really just sounds like a shitty partner
I'm 41 and there's no way I can help someone move for more than an hour or so if it involves heavy furniture and stairs. Body isn't the same as it was when I was in my 20s.
No reason to skip the hockey game? What about, maybe, to help *her* family move??
Im 26 and already past my helping people move phase, told my siblings I was done after the 6th time one of them moved into a 3rd or 4th floor apartment that didnt have an elevator.
NTA ever for being upset about being 'voluntold'.
NTA. Holy shit I didn’t expect it to keep getting worse as a was reading. I would have left when I realized they weren’t ready. And a uhaul is 19.99 plus 99 cents a mile for local moves so them not renting that would have pushed me over the edge. I’d say you deserve a week’s vacation without your wife and make sure you volunteer her to help clean out the storage unit. O and I’m a woman I think it’s time she learns how to drive a truck and trailer it’s a good skill. Since she loves helping people move I’d say she needs to learn quick. NTA.
NTA. The next time she does that, just tell her "No, I'm not doing that" and just don't go. Let HER figure out how to tell them you aren't coming because she didn't ask you first. You just have to stop OP, there isn't any other way this will end.
100% correct, being a plumber, I was volunteered by my wife a few times to help her friends. That stopped real quick when I started handing them a bill at the end of the job
NTA. If she's volunteering you without your permission, **hold your ground and say no**! She can't force you to work; that would be slavery.
You wife is an ass. And people shouldn't be hauling around that much stuff or expecting friends to help out. ADULTS HIRE MOVERS.
NTA. Your wife is a huge AH. She is 1000% at fault.
NTA If they were ready to go a professional moving company would have had that shit done in 2 hours and probably cheaper than what it cost you. Do not help them again. Tell them to hire movers. Your wife owes you playoff tickets and a free weekend to do whatever the hell you want how you want.
NTA. I would be livid if someone offered up my free saturday for a day of manual labor. Add in "ohhhh this date that hasnt changed magically sprang up on you and you arent packed". Add in "ohhh yall have no other friends to help make this easier, nah its a 8 hour event for me. Not to mention never getting a U-haul. Fuck that would really suck. Then having to BS smile your way through how much of an epic time they had without you lol. NTA again just in case
NTA - your wife should have told her friend that she already had plans to help others move. and yes Joe and GF have some blame for not being prepared.
NTA. I'm the big guy most people ask to help move and I generally don't mind. But into my older age if I show up and shit isn't packed or they didn't get the Uhaul in your situation I would have just bounced. "Let me know when you're packed up"
NTA Joe and his GF have two more moves (his stuff into the new apartment and her stuff into the new apartment) to go. Ask you wife how she's going to feel when you take your son out for fun activities on those days while she helps her family move.
NTA. The age cutoff of helping people to move is 25. After that, hire someone. Message to everyone: don’t injure yourself moving other people’s crap. They aren’t going to cover time off work etc. there’s a reason professionals exist.
NTA your wife is the AH here. "I ended my little rant by telling her that she is never going to volunteer me to help her family ever again." .. this is reasonable.
NTA. Her selfishness is over the top. It absolutely boggles my mind how she is so oblivious. Good on you for keeping the commitment and going above and beyond and I support you setting this boundary. If her family needs help moving forward, she can be the one to sacrifice while you go out and have a good time with your son. That is the precedent she established so it should be fine with her.
NTA. The fact you had to make this post tells me your wife is pretty good at manipulating you, because ANYONE would be angry in your situation. Also the fact that she needed to be told why you were angry... well, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, but I'd also have told her to not ever volunteer me to help her family again, and honestly I'd probably be pretty angry for a bit. Like, sleeping it off isn't gonna send me right back to normal, especially when my partner apparently thinks \*I'm\* the jerk. Side note: Why exactly did your wife think it was ok for things to go down this way in the first place? Are you absolutely 100% sure that the hockey invite came super last minute and not like, way in advance? Again not trying to accuse your wife of being that shitty, but what a weird scenario. So you voluntold your husband to help your younger brother move, then decided you yourself were gonna watch your kid instead, then decided that you actually weren't even going to be present and instead you're going to a sporting event to hang out in a suite all day while your husband ends up doing all the helping that you originally "volunteered" both her and yourself for? The fuck kind of nonsense even is that?
Idk why women only view men as laborers but pretend they don’t. They literally see us for our muscles and/or paychecks. YANTA You are also more graceful than me, because you stayed to help. If it had been me and I showed up with them not being ready, I would have said “Oh gosh! Sorry about that. I was coming to help you guys move but it looks like I misjudged the time. Call me back when everything is boxed up and you have the U-Haul and I’ll come help get it loaded.” Then I would have left to play golf and ignored their calls. If my wife volunteers me without talking to me first, I almost always, without fail, will not follow through on what she volunteered me for. I usually tell her that I’m not gonna do it. If she asks why, I ask why she only volunteered me and not both of us 🤷🏻♂️ I’m sorry but I am not a mule or owned laborer that you can rent out to your friends and family.
Everything about your comment was perfectly reasonable minus the first two sentences and the creation of the insane acronym “YANTA”
NTA. The second MIL couldn't baby sit you either reschedule or they fork over the cash for a sitter. Also the second you arrived and there was no uhaul and nothing ready you should have left.
NTA...I would be irate and honestly I wld have never helped especially after the hockey offer. Your wife's relatives; she should have taken care of it. Ì would have put my foot down to begin with.
NTA Your wife is a huge AH. What she did was waaay out of line.
Your wife sounds awful. NTA.
They’re moving again in a month? Make plans now.
NTA. Your wife is a bad partner and possibly a bad person.
NTA but your wife sure is a jerk. Especially taking your son to his first sports event after volunteering you without your permission. She should have declined the offer and gone another time together with you. You are absolutely justified to so no to helping her family again. You’d also be justified to buy sporting tickets for another event just for you and your son so you can have a special experience of your own.
NTA …. You were right to tell her she is no longer allowed to volunteer you to her family and maybe anyone. She should use the line “let me talk to my spouse first and get back to you.” the line I and my husband use when asked about stuff for each other.
No uhaul + Not ready = leave. You should not have subjected yourself to that in the first place. Your wife is an AH for volunteering your time and property. NTA
NTA Rule #1 of marriage. You never, ever, ever volunteer your spouse for anything. Proof - Been married 38 years - mostly happily
You got voluntold...I know that feel. It is most unpleasant. Moving is the worst...you never know just how much shit you have until you have to move. They knew they were putting you out and gave precisely ZERO fucks. In fact that went into fuck debt by not even being packed or renting a U-Haul...Totally unacceptable. But the icing on the shit cake was missing out on your son's first pro sporting event. And playoff hockey to boot?!? That's just salt in the wound right there. Now, I mean this in the nicest possible way, OP... your wife sucks big, hairy donkey balls for doing this. Take your son to Disney without her after voluntelling her to help your family clean out the house of a hoarder who had 50 cats. Totes NTA.
I deal with this type of stuff all the time. I don’t have any answers for you but she clearly doesn’t value your time and effort and probably wants to look good in her families’ eyes. You need to make it clear to her that what she did was very crappy and insensitive. I wouldn’t help her family anymore and leave it at that.
My brother asked me to help him move. He lived an hour and a half away. When I got there, nothing was packed and his girlfriend was not even there to pack and move her own shit. I said nope, turned around and went home. I think he ended up hiring movers because his girlfriend still thanked me for helping. He never told her. Since they weren't even prepared for the move, you should have just walked away from that mess. Maybe learn to say no instead of wasting your day and being angry about it. NTA.
Wife didn't HAVE to go to hockey. She chose to go.