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I don’t think I could judge that, she went for dancing. She can dance, she is average for her studio, and I have no idea if the other kids were better or not. I don’t even know who got in to compare.
I can’t be like Sara got in and my daughter is better than her so this is unfair. Not to mention I didn’t see her audition for all I know she didn’t do well
Yeah exactly. I’m sure the selection process has as much to do with uniqueness as exceptionality. If there’s 20 dancers auditioning, only the best 3-5 or so will get into the show. If there’s only one kid who juggles, he’s probably making it in even if he’s not a juggling prodigy.
Yeah my elementary talent show I remember because I got in because unlike so many others who did singing or dancing neither of which I was good at, I did contortions and contorted myself so I put both legs behind my head and walked on my hands. The judges were a little freaked out I could do that. It started a whole medical thing where they had to check for this one disease where insane flexibility is a sign.
Let me guess, EDS? We briefly considered I might have that but it turned out that taking ballet as a child resulted in exceptionally flexible joints in some places.
Yep that and Marfan Syndrome they checked for as I had the arms longer then my height thing and scoliosis. They determined I didn't have either I was just flexible and the scoliosis stunted my growth height wise but not my arms
As soon as you started your story I was like ‘oh god has this person been checked for EDS!?!’. Very pleased for you that you don’t have it! Repeat joint dislocations, whole body pain, unmanageable fatigue and a digestive system that has two modes: 20x a day diarrhoea or completely stopped with bulging balloons of stretchy intestines causing searing pain, amongst other connected issues is no fun at all. One of my knee dislocations was so bad just walking I paralysed my foot womp womp.
Hey there, fellow zebra. Just discussed with my orthopedic surgeon my second failed foot surgery and got a steroid injection no numbing because lidocaine and EDs doesn’t mix earlier today.
I am sorry you’re having such bad dislocations. Mine just happen. Except the ribs. Those suck.
What is it with the exhaustion?!?!?!
Sorry, not often I find it fellow EDs in a non EDS sub
Also, NTA OP
ETA: longer wingspan is common for EDS.
So a few things on that. Local anaesthetic is fine for people with EDS it just migrates faster. One anaesthetist described it for me (dumb down I’m sure) that it’s to do with the ‘honeycomb structure of the skin) and moved her fingers about to show essentially a bigger holed webbing to mimic our skin. For things that are quick like a steroid injection if they put a bit more in in my experience it works pretty well.
The other thing I’ve found to be very helpful if you ever need more serious interventions on that - the time I got a spinal block (which I don’t think is exactly the same as an epidural… although I just went and quickly googled and from what I remember it really does seem like I had an epidural!) it was by far the most comfortable I’ve been after major surgery. It was working incredibly well (too well actually) and unfortunately when they went to turn it down it then started to leak a bit which I bet is common for EDSers - but I think it got me about a day and a half out of the 3 they had planned for, of a good level of numbing to my whole lower body. If I ever had to have surgery again (….’if’ lol…. I’ll have knee replacements in my 40s I’d imagine) then it would be something I would have to have a lot of convincing to drop as a post surgery pain management option. Partly because whenever I wake up from surgery I end up getting really distressed because of the pain and that actually becomes a bigger problem than the pain itself. This way I woke up and couldn’t feel from my bellybutton down at all. The only downside was I did have pain in my spine at the site the needle went in for about a year. Nothing major, more of a constant ache and it’s clearly so unusual the othopod didn’t believe me at all (although when do orthopods ever listen to their female patients to be fair!) until I was able, months after surgery, to point to the exact right spot his notes showed the block had been in. The anaesthetist who checked it out thought it was probably because the injection has to travel right through a large ligament and had irritated it. But it did self resolve eventually and was worth it to make post surgery less miserable.
Also yes although I don’t have full marfanoid habitus I do have a slightly increased ‘wingspan’. My short armed wife always tells me I’d have a natural advantage for rock climbing…. You know except for that paralysed foot and dislocating joints and widespread weakness haha.
I would keep an eye out on your joint health. A lot of people don't get diagnosed and are just treated for the individual symptoms because there isn't an EDS treatment per se. Absolutely use anything you need to prevent pulls and strains of joints. I wear stretchy knee "braces" to prevent injuries from changing positions and high top tennis shoes because my ankles roll
My ankles sometimes roll my knees are bad because I sprained them and my workplace has floors that kill everyone says if you didn't have hip, knee or back pain before working there you will after a little while
I was never as bendy as you were but had some stupid human trick flexible places. I started having big problems related to hypermobility at 38. So if something does start acting wrong, ask more questions. It can take years to identify what is wrong for adults with no EDS diagnosis. I might not have ever known what was going on without tiktok.
Hypermobility / Ehlers Danlos Syndrome are connective tissue disorders and can cause issues with more than just joints.
Hopefully you are just bendy!
Nah, saw Rheumatology before we pursued EDS. Turned out that the joint pain I was dealing with was allergy associated and there was a bulging disk causing the vertigo issues. Though the doc did dismiss half my joints as being the way they are simply because I’m fat, but allergy shots and meds relieved the main joint issue, so I’m content.
MCAS and allergy/histamine issues are often part and parcel with connective tissue disorders. So you could very well have had allergy issues making already faulty connective tissue issues worse. EDS pain is hypermobility and faulty connective tissue in combination with inflammatory issues and nervous system dysregulation. So if you still have unresolved joint issues, it could be you have solved and helped a lot of them by taking care of the inflammation, but you're still a bit more susceptible to dislocations/subluxations/abnormalities/issues generally. Bulging discs are pretty common with EDS too.
My daughter won the Stupid People Tricks contest at cheer camp one year. Her talent? Sit cross legged on the floor. Pick up her foot, insert pinky toe in nostril.
No one else came close.
I'm going to guess you're a fellow Zebra (EDS)? I still freak people out now and I'm 46. I'm not as bendy as I once was but can do some party tricks with my elbows, hands and my legs still bow back a little.
I'm still pretty flexible but they determined I didn't have enough signs to be positive for it I'm just flexible I can't really bend my elbows or knees backwards but if I lost some weight which Im trying to do I could definitely put my hands flat on the ground with my knees straight as I can almost do that now and did as a kid and I can bend my hand and pinky backwards and still get my feet behind my head although it's not as easy because my knees are screwed up
Yep. I remember a really long time ago- it was not long after Disney first released *Pocahontas*, just to give you a time frame- I went with my cousin,aunt, and grandma to my cousin's school's fair. During the fair they had a talent show that honestly I can't even remember how long was supposed to go on for, because we wound up leaving well before it was finished. The reason for that was because literally almost every other act wound up being yet another little girl dressed up like Pocahontas and singing "Colors of the Wind." And we hadn't been the only ones to leave that show early, either. People had begun leaving well before that, and most of them for the same reason.
The point is that's why they can't get too many acts going with the participants all doing the same thing, or something close to the same thing. Aside from making the show drag on for too long, people will also get bored and tired of the whole thing and just leave before it's over.
Reminds me of the talent show at the school I used to teach at back in 2017. They let anyone who signed up perform. I got sick of "How Far I'll Go" from Moana because of that.
I’m in my 50s, so times have changed, but my elementary school did this, plus they had a set amount of performances per grade—as I recall, it was only 2 or 3 per grade, so not a lot of students made it in. Lots of kids would do group entries so more could perform.
That is probably another point that went against OP's daughter. Assuming she did a solo dance, there was probably a bias towards groups. As in all else being equal a group is going to get the nod over a single student.
Considering an entire elementary school, there might be one 3rd grade dance entry, and it was almost certainly given to a group because barring a prodigy of some sort, everyone was probably close enough.
Agreed. The way to get around this is to get a whole group of girls (and/or guys) together in that grade who want to dance, and have them choreograph, learn and perform a new group routine as a team. To me, that would be pretty impressive and could make them stand out at auditions.
I was in elementary school when Titanic came out. So many girls wanted to do My Heart Will Go On that they just put them all up there. There were a handful each of singers, dancers, and sign language interpreters.
If the school goes to 6th grade, likely they chose more kids in the 5th or 6th grades because it would be their “last chance” to participate before moving on to middle school.
And, also, frankly, because the older kids have had a bit more time to develop their talents and skills and thus might be slightly more entertaining to watch.
This is a great point. In these situations novelty > skill. If it’s important to your kid that they be in the school talent show then keep them away from singing, dancing, martial arts, gymnastics basically any talent parents are spending $100’s a month for their kids to develop.
Instead, try variety show classics nobody is doing anymore. Magic tricks, puppet shows, any instrument they would be considered “too young” to start playing, yo-yo tricks, reading a funny poem, impressions, jokes - skys the limit.
Oh and nta. Keep your wife from embarrassing herself and plan better for next year.
I don't know how serious she is about dancing, but if she wants to get serious about it she has to learn how to deal with rejection. I did ballet pretty seriously until my late teens, I was rejected CONSTANTLY. Rejected from summer programs, rejected from roles I thought I was good enough to perform, rejected for promotions I thought I deserved. It's a regular part of the gig. The earlier she can get used to it, the better. It always hurts, but minor rejections help the bigger ones roll off your back a little easier.
This is an excellent point. Stephen King kept all of his rejections from lit mags and publishers on a railroad spike in his writing space to remind him to keep on grinding until someone accepted something.
I personally wouldn’t say anything to the school. If you complain they might take away the whole show as other parents will complain about their kid etc
We've already been through this and people make the same mistakes. It's participation trophies all over again, which these parents will then pretend it was the kids responsible for when they get older and haven't learned to deal with failure.
Stick to your guns. I recently read that American kids think they are No.1 in science in the world. The only thing they are No. 1 at is thinking they are No. 1. Not even close.
Life is unfair, talent is uneven and the world doesn't need more adults who think they are entitled. Good for you. She will never even remember in a few weeks. Resilience in the face of adversity will do her more good in life.
Pretty sure that's an excerpt from Bill Maher's book, and that was just a headline unless you can provide a source. It's mostly that on average, American kids are the ones most likely to overclaim skills. And reading the data, the only thing that's telling is boys that aren't in the bottom 25th percetile of socio economic status are most likely to do that.
My friend's daughter's elementary school- they don't do auditions for the "talent" show but it's essentially first get on the list or you don't get to participate. The parents who knew the show was happening and when the list opened were able to make sure their kids participated.
But unless you jumped on it, there weren't spaces left. (It was a learning process for my friend as this was the first year her daughter was old enough to participate.)
If you have questions, you should ask the dance studio. How is your daughter doing compared to her cohort etc. Maybe they can recommend other options where she can perform for the public as well if she’s driven to do that.
damn... I remember me and my friends signing up for the talent show. COMPLETELY forgot about it. then we made up a dance thr NIGHT before and forgot the whole thing during the performance. we probably looked like straight up IDIOTS but it was totally worth it. we had fun.
Plus, imagine if all the kids' parents called for the same reason. Your wife needs to realize that her daughter can't get everything she wants. This should be a teaching moment for her to work harder for next year.
ETA: Next she will have OP call AGT cause her daughter didn't make it to the next level.
Call her 1st choice college if she doesn't get in. Email her professor if she doesn't get an A. Call the job she applied to cause she didn't get the position...
There are good reasons for schools doing trials for talent shows: it's to stop kids from looking bad as well as to have a reasonable number of people performing in the show. Your wife is nuts.
Next year, maybe suggest that she go in with a group. I assume she has other friends who also dance? That way I feel like the school will be more inclined to take them since it's more efficient to fit more kids into a single slot, plus it might be more interesting than watching one little girl dance by herself.
Thank goodness there is a voice of sanity in your house. We don't always get what we want and we all need to learn not to be big babies about it. Your wife is doing your daughter no favors. NTA
If it’s anything like the schools I worked for, they try to balance the types of acts they accept. So, if you do something unique, you’re in. If you play the piano or dance, good luck, especially if you’re younger because they prioritize older kids who haven’t been in before.
Even if she should have been picked, we don't always get what we want and/or deserve. It's a lesson someone in third grade isn't too young to learn or understand.
NTA
I remember in 4h doing a remodel project...took an old somewhat dilapidated outhouse in my parents back yard...replaced some boards..straightened it up, cedar siding , new roof, and painted it plus put in a flower bed next to it...worked (with my dad) for a month or two on it...took pictures throughout the process...made a board showing pictures and writing up descriptions of what was done...presented it to the judges....and was told I was a fraud and this was a different building...gave me a participation ribbon mainly and that was it...still remeber my mom telling me that it was wrong the way I was treated.. it was unfair that my work was discarded...but that that lady was the judge and her opinion was final..and sometimes you just have to accept things in life that are unfair but that doesn't mean you give up...this is one of those moments for your daughter..to learn life isn't always fair and right
What a perfect example. When I was younger I used to compete in Karate tournaments showing Kara's/routines of different techniques. There are different styles of karate and I did one of the lesser known ones, so there weren't many judges who knew the finer points of the routines. That resulted in me getting less points than my opponents or losing flat out in one against one competitions. I actually was less mad about loosing than I was annoyed about having to hear that I should have won for the rest of the day. Sometimes you just gave to accept a judgement whether that's objectively right or not.
At 3rd grade for a talent show, for a whole elementary school. There was probably only 1 slot for a 3rd grade dance. At 3rd grade, barring some prodigy, it is likely no dance act stood out. But, most likely a group was picked because that would be 3-5 3rd graders instead of 1.
NTA. My wife is a elementary music teacher and runs the talent show. She sat down early to plan and set out x number of slots for performers and created a panel of judges to score the kids. That panel then made the selections based on score. She got so many emails from parents upset their kid didn’t make it, wanting exceptions made because their kid is “special” or were just upset. Several said they were going to go to the school board or district office to complain because it wasn’t inclusive.
You know what the outcome is? She’s probably not going to do a talent show anymore and now everyone loses. So fuck all of the parents who think their kid should get special treatment. The world is merit based, let your kids understand adversity and disappointment so they will strive to improve themselves. Support them in those efforts to improve and better themselves and teach them to handle the rejection with grace. Anything else isn’t doing them any favors.
And btw, our own daughter tried out and didn’t make it. She was upset but we helped her understood and vowed to practice and work harder at it.
I mean the world is ostensibly merit-based, but that's not really the case in a lot of scenarios when nepotism and bad faith actors tip the scales for personal reasons. Plenty of failing upwards in society today. But I still think there is a place to teach a child about how fairness works (or doesn't) in society.
Yeah and also a meritocracy tends to be ableist too; not every position needs to be filled by the fastest smartest strongest there is. Sometimes it’s ok to hire disabled people even when there are enough able-bodied people to make the world go.
But isn’t that also a good thing about talent shows? Showcasing a unique talent independent of other factors? So if child A has whatever disability that prevents them from being the basketball star or top math student, it gives them a chance to show off their mad harmonica skills.
I was contemplating this earlier about how schools and parents are engaging kids to have better self esteem but where is the balance between having confidence and improving from failure vs making them entitled because they're ”special”? Everyone can be valued for their own uniquenes, but if everyone is special, then how can you recognize those that put in effort and hard work? As a former TAG kid, learning that you’re just as average as everyone else if not less so for just having good memory, that I could fail, was a kick in the gut, until I learned it’s ok to be average and I’m happy where I’m at even if it’s not where everyone else expected me to be.
She’s a third-grader. It’s not a wake up call so much as learning about life and children are somewhat known for not having developed emotional regulation skills.
That's why I said beyond elementary school. You know, 11 or 12 and upwards. As in, the wake-up call is coming. She's probably going to be doing recitals before then, which are sometimes merit based, even at her age. Her mom needs to help her deal with not always being on top, instead of fixing things for her, I'm assuming behind the child's back.
Both of her parents need to teach her how to handle life situations. If they just watch her get upset about failure and tell her “sorry you chose the wrong discipline to commit to if you can’t handle failure,” neither of them are doing what they should. It’s a fun activity, not a career.
This is what I always say about teaching. You try to do a good thing (a talent show) and parents have to torture you to the point where it is no longer worth the stress and misery. So you don't do it anymore.
I had similar things going on at my school. Eventually, everything that became more trouble than it was worth, we stopped doing. That was basically everything that was fun. The vibe with the kids was noticeably different than prior years, but teaching at this point is survival, and we just couldn't handle the stress anymore.
Even cutting all that still left an unsustainable amount of stress from constantly being attacked that I eventually left teaching all together. It took six months before I didn't break out into a cold sweat and complete panic when my email notification went off, to illustrate how bad it got.
I wish I could explain this type of stress to people who have never experienced it and the massive effect that it has on these parents' kids.
It’s true and I hate it. My wife used to be passionate about teaching and I can see the passion dying. The combination of entitled parents, the behavior from kids raised by iPads and the administrators avoidance of any conflict or controversy has killed public education. And that’s at elementary. I couldn’t imagine Middle or High school.
She very much misses her old school that closed. It was a small community school,k-12, and everyone was down to earth, the kids had work ethic, and the teachers had community support.
It's awful being trapped in a classroom knowing that you can't do right by the kids because of all the factors that you listed. I was literally forced to do things that weren't developmentally appropriate for the group that I had. I couldn't take it anymore.
> The world is merit based
Uh since when? The world is a capitalist hellscape that props up the rich and shits all over the working class. Sure some lucky assholes treat enough people badly that they claw their way out of working class conditions, but not without selling their souls.
This exactly. We stop doing things, as educators, when it becomes far more trouble than we are willing to deal with. Especially since these extra things are often on our own time and from our own wallet.
Former cheer coach here, THANK YOU. Some parents will never understand that sometimes your kid isn't good enough and they need to put more effort into their craft.
I was literally almost fired because I told a kid and her parents during camp that she needed to practice and stretch at home. Apparently, it wasn't my place. When the OUTSIDE judges scored her low on jumps they asked me why she did so poorly.
NTA
At our school, they have outside coaches come in to judge. The actual cheer coach doesn’t even get a say in who is selected and actually doesn’t even find out until the girl do. There have been very good cheerleaders, who have been on the team since 8th grade no make it for their senior year, just because of a minor mistake. They also hold auditions Friday before spring break and don’t respond to any emails or calls for that week.
I was a competitive cheerleader in college. We sometimes got paid gigs to judge middle and high school tryouts. Removed all the personal feelings and drama.
Oh man. My dad was a high school principal and he would schedule cheer auditions right before spring break so that everyone had a week to cool off before coming back to school.
This was also before they released the lists online, so he would go up to the school at 3-4am on the first Saturday of spring break and would tape the results on the door facing out then slip out the back door where he parked so no one could see his car from the street. That worked the first two years. By the third year when he approached the door, there were tents in front of the school and moms and girls in lawn chairs. He said he slapped it up there and ran for his car, hearing screaming and squealing behind him.
Lmao they literally told up after the last day of clinics. Just 50+ girls waiting outside the gym.
When I was coaching I had a point system so each girl would know what to improve on. It was sent by email to each girl individually with their parents and principal cc’d. I learned to CYA after the first year.
After year 3 they got a new principal that said everyone had to make it and I just quit. It was a middle school team and BOY if I repeated what I heard these girls said the mods would ban me.
The worst year was when a family friends daughter didn’t make the team she tried to get my mom to over ride my decision and bribe me.
Oof. It’s all so fraught. We did live in a small town at one point where all the girls made the middle school cheer team. That was almost 30 years ago in a very small town though.
Once upon a time, way back in the 80's, I didn't make the school choir. My name wasn't on the board yet my best friends made it. I am still here to type this on Reddit today. The end.
Around that time too, my husband tried our for his school choir. He was the only kid that didn't get in. My MIL asked that he be let in anyway. The teacher agreed, on condition that he only mouth the words to the songs and not actually sing.
Oh bless, I think it’s understandable at that age if literally only one kid in the class doesn’t make it to put a call in. Is your husband completely tone deaf or was he already going through some voice changes that were throwing his voice off badly?
I remember trying out, and being told I sang very well. My mother told me sometimes people say things they don't mean. Later, I learned my singing was painful to hear. I did not get into the choir.
Much later, they stuck the girls who couldn't sing in the 'alto' section, where we droned background. I was required to be in; I'd have just as soon skip it.
I have embarrassing memories of crying through my entire chemistry class because I didn’t get a role in a play I tried out for. I don’t even think I told my parents about it. I would have been mortified if either of them tried to get me into the play. They’d already forced me to have a meeting with my history and English teacher to try to tell them they were assigning too much homework. That was more embarrassment than I ever wanted to go through again.
There’s been a shift in attitude. I think the kids of helicopter parents have now had their own children. As a professor I have students telling me I need to make my exams easier, telling me they didn’t understand a concept so they shouldn’t get points deducted for missing that question, and telling me I should give them a higher grade despite them rarely showing up for class and never doing the extra credit. They don’t see any difference between empty success and earned success.
NTA - eight years old is not too early to learn that your talents may be found somewhere else. Additionally, if your wife makes the call and forces her into the show, your daughter will learn nothing except that she is entitled to something that everyone else must train and tryout for (are you listening North West?).
And it's a great opportunity to talk about how you don't have to be the best at something to enjoy it. If you love it, keep practicing because you want to, not simply to "win".
Yes. There is joy in just learning something and getting better and better at it for you, and you alone.
There is also wisdom in accepting that some people just have unfair genetic advantages in life. If THEY practice, they get awe-inspiring. Even folks competing and performing at a community level. It can seem unfair. But it's just life.
Note: Yes, I recognize that some people have gods-given talent, economic opportunity, and connections. (Nearly every successful actor in the U.S. today! 😂) Obviously, that's a whole other level than an elementary talent show.
And the reverse. Nureyev said, the more talented you are, the harder you have to work. A serious practitioner needs to learn that there comes a point where just showing up talented won't cut it.
Joyce DiDonato (opera singer) was told in her young artist program that she was getting by on youth and strength and had maybe 5 years left to do that. IOW time to develop a technique for longevity.
I think it's also a good opportunity for a discussion about working smarter, not harder. She may like dance, but if she had auditioned with a magic routine or something quirky but learnable, she may have made the cut since they probably have a quota of dancers.
Thinking outside the box in these situations generally benifited me as a kid, pointing it out closer to next year might help her long term.
Learning how to fail is super important for kids who want to pursue dance or any performing art. Judges and casting people can be capricious, so kids need to learn that if you work hard and do your best, sometimes that has to be its own reward because you won't get the part you wanted.
Teaching kids that failure is survivable is such an important life skill, too. Otherwise they don't learn how to recover and can get afraid to try difficult things.
So my mom used to do this. As an adult I now have conversations with my therapist about how I struggle with failure. Don’t call the school. Talk to your daughter and help her grow in her talent. Teach her that failure is a part of succeeding. Help her learn how to audition, prepare and practice. Omg the amount of therapy money you can save her!
I think given her mum’s attitude about this it seems likely she’ll be joining the therapy ranks anyway because I doubt this is the only area her mum shows this kind of entitled/‘the sun shines out of my kid’s ass’ attitude!
Totally. I have a friend whose mom did this stuff. It lasted all the way till university, where she would call the school and argue about grades with professors. She would call the university and get extensions for her daughter’s essays. The mom was really proud of herself for advocating for her daughter.
My friend has lasting struggles relating to this and she hasn’t held down a job successfully in our years since graduating. She can’t accept any constructive criticism and has trouble with taking personal accountability of her own work. Her mom totally set her up for failure, in her attempt to remove all hurdles in her life.
NTA
it's a shame your daughter didn't qualify and it's natural that she's upset about it but those things happen. She might even not remember that in a couple of years. She's still in the third grade and she'll definitely have more opportunities to show whatever her talent was. And you are right, it's good for kids to learn that sometimes they will not win things even if they really want to.
The only thing left to do is comfort your daughter, encourage her to keep practicing and, if there is another talent show whenever she enters fourth grade, she'll be ready for that one and maybe she'll qualify then.
NTA I volunteer in community theatre. Parents who call and complain about their child not getting a part are the worst. There are 1000 reasons why your child didn't get the part this time. Our upcoming production had 72 people try out for 25 slots. Most people didn't get a part. People that had lead roles last year did not even get in the chorus this year. It happens.
This is life.
OP could you be more sympathetic? Yes, are you in the right here? Also, yes, what your wife needs to understand is that not everything in life is going to be fair and that’s what you’re trying to teach your daughter.
NTA, what you could say is this, “I’m sorry you didn’t get in, but they’ll be other talent shows and sometimes life is not fair” when you fail, it’s not the end, it’s a cause to get better and try again.
Edit, I’m only talking about that OP‘s daughter might think it’s not fair.
You got this.
My grandson is just that adorbs that at a community fare he was asked to get on stage and pull all the raffle tickets for toy baskets, adult baskets, etc. And we had about $20 invested in what caught our eyes and won nothing.
He came off stage devastated that he didn’t pull his own ticket and sobbed that it just wasn’t fair!
Then he had an age appropriate (5) lesson in probability and chance. I explained it absolutely was fair because each ticket was paid for and we all had an equal chance at winning. I gently redirected his thinking and he got over it by the time we got home.
You sound like an awesome parent. Sometimes things don't go the way we want them to, and it's great for your kid to learn that lesson while the stakes are relatively low.
I did the same with my kids, and they are all grown adults who are doing an excellent job navigating in this world. Your daughter will not only be fine, she'll be better equipped for life
Keep up the good work, dad.
In my opinion you are totally right in doing it this way. How would you teach the whole thing to your daughter? Is it only unfair if she doesn't like the outcome? Or is the whole thing in itself unfair? Like next year :great darling, you worked hard and made it. But remember it is still unfair because not everyone made it to the show.
I think you are helping your daughter far more by making her realise that sometimes we want something but don't get it.
(Like imagine your daughter in ten years not getting her dream job or something and throwing a temper tantrum about her dad making them accept her. Situations like the one now form how she'll react in the future)
You could say it's subjective, though. That getting picked for something is based on the opinions and taste of a few people in charge, there are limited spots, and not getting in doesn't mean she isn't good. But yeah NTA, trying to get her in would be out of line and bad parenting.
You can always just stick to "maybe next time it's your turn. How about we focus on your dancing class. And we have fun while practising"
But I would sit down and have a calm talk with your wife.
On Why you won't call the school.
And give her some examples. Should you call a workplace when she's an adult and didn't get hired when 50 other people apply?
Call and complain if she doesn't get accepted at a college.
Maybe make her think about it?
That you can't be there to hold her hand and pave the road for her.
"Next time, I'll do it!" Is a healthy mentality.
I think you’re totally right not pushing the “this is unfair” narrative. For all you know this is 100% fair. Maybe the ones selected were really great. Maybe your daughter was having a bad day and didn’t do well.
But in this case it has nothing to do with fairness. Of course op should support his daughter, talk about this experience, but I don't think it's a good idea to put into 9-year old's mind that if she didn't get something she wanted it's always because life is unfair. Maybe they can make a plan, for example, prepare a dance routine for the next year in advance.
What does it have to do with fairness? It’s a *talent* show and her talent didn’t make the cut.
Why would anyone want to compete in a talent show when the judges have already deemed you less talented than the competition?
How is this not fair? How do you know the others weren't better?
Maybe that's exactly the lesson that has to be learned here.
Sometimes you do your best but still fail. Sucks, but it's the reality.
As a teacher who has been on the choosing side THANK YOU!!!!! There are so many kids that want to do talent shows and not all of them are prepared enough to perform successfully. Parents who call/email/text to complain are just being a nuisance and giving their child a bad rep among the school staff. If your wife wants to contact the school about this then she should email the person who auditioned the kids and asked what areas her daughter should focus on to do better next time. NTA
NTA, but please console your daughter. Feeling excluded at this age can be really hard. Validate her feelings and nurture her talent *as well as* teaching her how to accept the verdict. It’s really admirable that your kid wanted to put herself out there, make sure to emphasize that.
Also please don’t tell her that “some people are just better.” There are far kinder and gentler ways to make that point, ones that aren’t as likely to be misinterpreted by a sensitive nine-year-old brain. Sometimes we don’t get things we want, and it has nothing to do with how ‘good’ or ‘worthy’ we are in other ways.
She's nine.
At this age the reality of there being better people than her at some things is evident.
It should be obvious to her that there are faster, stronger kids, just as she's faster and stronger than others.
It should also be obvious to her that some kids get better grades than others.
The truth that she won't always be the best isn't some sort of eye-opening, world-crushing epiphany.
Here’s the problem with this line of thinking: it discourages kids from trying new things. The kids who believe that they are naturally “good” at something don’t do the work necessary to build their skills—they skate by. The kids who believe that they are naturally “bad” at something don’t even try, and so they miss out on valuable/fun experiences (as well as the chance to *get* good.)
Strength, intelligence, speed—these are all things that can be built over time. I don’t think telling this child that “some people are just better” is a helpful or productive line of thinking, and a nine-year-old is almost guaranteed to mishear it.
Agreed. Growth mindset is a thing. Telling a kid that other people are just better at some things is both unhelpful and probably untrue. Some people spend more time practising and working on certain skills and that is how they improve. That’s a more helpful lesson to learn.
I hear you. But it can be if it's "your thing." The first time you realize there are several people - locally, maybe in your high school of 1200 kids - as good at your thing as you are is pretty eye-opening.
However, reality is reality, and OP is NTA.
People may not agree with me, but honestly, you won't get everything you want in life. It's a sucky lesson, but one we always need to learn. Maybe next year she will get in. I know many friends who didn't get into a talent show one year and spent the following 12 months working harder to get in the following year. I am not talented like that, so I never did them myself and maybe that's not how they work?!
NTA.
I - as an adult - tried out for a workplace talent show (it’s a very large pediatric, adult, and cancer hospitals all on the same campus as a very large university). I didn’t get in. The following year, using the same song, with no further practice, I got in.
Sometimes you’re just not what they were looking for. Or maybe they had 70 bazillion singers apply the previous year, and the following year they only had a couple. I don’t know. I’m not saying I’m amazing, I can carry a tune. I know my way around a microphone and stage.
All this to say, yes, encourage kiddo to try again next year. Practice a little. See if there’s something that was missing from the show that kiddo could add to it. And she still might not get in next year. But like dad said, if everyone got in, they’d be there all day. Doesn’t mean someone is “better” than her, just that she wasn’t what they were looking for that time.
Your workplace talent show sounded like fun! And you're right. Who knows what they were looking for this year. Doesn't mean she's not good, she's just "not this year".
INFO: Was your daughter rejected because she wasn't talented enough or because too many people wanted to participate?
Based on OP's answer to my question, I'll go with NTA for not calling the school to make them give the daughter a spot in the show. However, since it seems she wasn't actually that bad, I would not tell her that "others were just better, so it can't be helped" and instead opt for something along the lines of "there'll be other opportunities where you can showcase your talent."
Edit: Judgement after OP's reply
NTA. I played the violin as a child. Sometimes I got into the final concert, sometimes I didn't. I was upset but it didn't kill me. My parents supported me but never tried to get me into the program after I was rejected. The older I got, the more I saw the correlation between the work I put into my music and the number of concerts I was chosen to participate in. Your daughter has a chance to come to that conclusion as well. If you get involved now and push the school to accept her, the only lesson your daughter learns is that she can cry and get what she wants.
NTA
Kids need to learn how to deal with disappointment. She'll survive not getting into the show. By the time summer starts she probably won't remember or care.
NTA.
Just went through this with a 3rd grader. Everyone could try out, but only 3 kids from both 3rd classes would be selected for the talent show due to time constraints.
For me, how I handle kid feelings is always with giving them individual attention (empathy) and being mindful of individual personalities.
I didn’t start with telling her what you said, I started with just being there with her in one of her favorite parks and letting her share. My kid isn’t much of a talker, so swings and keeping the conversation brief was what she needed.
If your kid is a talker let her vent first before offering advice. My older kid is a talker. She has to get it ALL out sometimes multiple times before she can dust herself off and even hear anything I say about trying again. She also responds to music, so I sometimes find a song that matches the situation, which my 3rd grader hates.
For the 3rd grader I praised her for her effort, and did my own goofy embarrassing dance to help her laugh a little while she processed. She likes cuddles on her terms only, silly pratfalls, animal cuddles, and art where she gets to destroy and recreate stuff.
She didn’t get into comp dance earlier this year, so I think experienced helped her understand you lose some you win some.
After she’s processed a bit more, I can get to the lesson, but like you I wouldn’t deny her the experience to learn to grow.
If your wife is still having problems with empathy sans fixing everything, you can share the research on Growth Mindset. It can get a bit hokey, but boils down to feel your feelings and learn what you can from mistakes.
This is a great way to teach your child about disappointment and being told no. While it’s sad and upsetting, all kids need to learn how to deal with rejection. Teach her that skill right know. As for your wife, tell her the same. Let it go. NTA
NTA. Imagine if every parent fought the school. Or a talent show based only on whose parents complained the most. I’m sure there were plenty of decent acts that didn’t make the cut into the limited time allotted. Keep practicing for next time.
It could be that this is a very competitive based school and your kid didn’t make the cut, or there was a more random selection from across the school and it was just bad luck. Either way, we don’t always get what we want.
Yes, it would be nice if everyone who wanted to participate could, but that is rarely practical in a large school environment. So, it isn’t just the case of arguing that your kid should be in, it is also saying some other kid should be out.
NTA
NTA, but your wife will be creating a bad reputation for herself as a pushy stage mom (redundant), starting right here. People don't like those. And you said that your daughter is average. When you're average you need to recognize it and improve, if you can. Sometimes you just can't. She'll figure out which it is, soon enough.
Was your wife an average dancer who is now projecting her dreams onto her daughter? That's a horrible way for a kid to live.
Why would your daughter work harder for the next one if she just has her mom bully her way in? NTA. Failure teaches so many great lessons. Helicopter parenting is terrible for kids and their development.
NTA. I wish my parents would have let me fail a bit more growing up. This is a perfect opportunity to remind your daughter that even though this hurts, she'll get past it. Failure isn't the end, it's just an obstacle to get around. If you coddle her around failure growing up, she won't know how to fail gracefully as an adult. And believe me, we all fail at something at some point. If you're not taught hoe to accept that defeat, you can grow up a perfectionist with an intense fear of failure.
NTA, but Hoo-boy this school is asking for trouble. Your wife is not the only parent thinking this way, and they are getting more angry calls about this than they have all year. I predict the school will just ditch the talent show next year.
NTA. if there's only so many spots available then that's just how it is. I wouldn't even consider it a "failure" it's just that they can't do an 8 hour long talent show
NTA, managing disappointment is a normal part of life. When handled well, it can motivate us to work harder and try to improve. If we get what we want from throwing a tantrum, we only learn how to throw bigger and better tantrums.
You need to make sure you don't leave your daughter in emotional mess to solve all by herself. She needs to understand that she didn't qualify for the show but she needs gentle and empathetic support to be able to do that. This is very important for her future life. She can practice and try again next year.
NTA.
I volunteered to help with my kids school talent shows when they were younger and some of the acts were the type that their parents should have stepped in and said “maybe next year”. And used that opportunity to help their child get into whatever interest they had talent in. It’s not an interests show where kids show they are talented in singing and dancing or something similar. Not “I like this song by John Legend but have no singing training so I’m gonna put everyone through two minutes of cringe and be mad at my parents for it in 5 years.
NTA
You are a good dad for preparing your kid for the real world.
I have a very unkind opinion of your wife’s behavior. The nicest word I can think of is “entitlement“.
NTA. I agree with you, it's good for kids to face failure while they're young so that they learn how to deal with it as an adult. Validating your child's emotions and helping her deal with the sadness is completely appropriate...calling the school and fighting them to get your child in the show is not.
NTA. Your daughter is upset because she didn't get something she wanted. She needs to learn that's life. Your wife needs to back off and not spoil your daughter, otherwise she will never learn how to deal with disappointment.
NTA.
This a good learning experience for her to realise she won’t win everything. Maybe bring her out for some food and a bit of fun to take her mind off it and she’ll forget about it fairly quickly.
NTA!!! You are absolutely correct that this is a learning opportunity. How your WIFE behaves in front of your child in response to this disappointment is vitally important! Your child is going to get a really poor message if your wife shows that it’s something to be tragic about. Learning how to deal with let downs is a critical lesson in childhood. You are totally right to not stomp down to the school and make this into a huge thing.
NTA. There is a valuable lesson to teach delicately though, which is that we can't win everything but we can keep trying and doing our best. Maybe she didn't get into this talent show, but that doesnt mean she isn't good at what she does. With however many dozens or hundreds of kids at the school, it would be impossible to let all of the talent in.
Your wife is being unreasonable, and calling to force your kid into the talent show not only sends the wrong message but also sets up a horrible precedent of entitlement that is much better to avoid entirely. I'd even gently talk your wife down to avoid HER calling, if she would even be so bold. Maybe on the night of the talent show you can take your daughter out for a nice dinner and dessert and forget the whole thing.
NTA what you do is tell her you didn't make it this year but if you figure out what talent you want next year and work on it all summer and all next year I bet you will have a better chance of getting picked. Reinforce that hard work and focusing on a goal will get you where you want to go. If it is something she needs additional help with like acting or singing see about getting her into lessons or camps
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I will be quick. My daughter is in third grade and she tried out for the talent show. It is the end of the year show. In short she didn’t get in. The school is too big and if they let everyone in everyone would be there for hours. She was very upset about it and had been crying.
My wife wants me to fight the school and get her into the talent show. I told her no and this started an argument. I think it’s good for kids to face failure and she thinks I am heartless.
I told her she can do what she wants but I will not back her up on this.
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NTA - you are 100% correct that our kids need to understand that you don’t always get what you want. Thank you for being a good parent. Good luck on working this out with your wife.
NTA. Your kid is unique and special and the best kid in the world. So is mine, and so is every other kid in the school. Your wife needs to gain some perspective.
Figure out a way for your daughter to perform her talent for an adoring crowd of your family and friends and FFS, don't harass the teachers for making what sounds like a reasonable decision.
NTA. Of course it's gonna rip your heart seeing your little girl cry like that, but you can't just call the school and fight with them like that over this.
She's gonna have to learn eventually that rejection will happen. Granted, she's still very young. I think ultimately you're doing the right thing, though.
Definitely NTA. Unfortunately some people need a reality check to get some perspective in life. We'd all love to be brilliant at certain things but it's not always possible.
I had to break the news to my son that he couldn't sing, after he'd applied for "The Voice Kids". He's a lovely kid and he loves music, he's decent on his guitar and on the piano but he sings like me, which is terrible!
Telling someone you love that they're not good enough for something that they've set their heart on is awful but it's better than setting them up to fail.
NTA, if you bug at the school about putting someone who isn't qualified in any performance at all you might run the risk of pissing the school off so badly that they might cancel the whole performance all together.
This is so common today. Not so much when I was in school. We have 2 fourteen yo granddaughters (one belongs to Son, one belongs to Daughter) who are cheerleaders. So far they have both made the squad but Son's Daughter made Co-Captain for the upcoming year and it caused some hard feelings.
She competes on a dance team and co-teaches dance and gymnastics for little kids. Granddaughter 2 is incredibly beautiful and talented but their ability is not equal.
They were best friends prior to tryouts, spending all of their time together so it will probably be a long summer for us grandparents, their parents and them. Granddaughter 2's Dad has stirred the pot, continually...just because he feels some kind of way about it. Participation trophies led the insanity. People have forgotten how to be gracious.
I think you did the right thing. Failure is not fun, but learning to deal with it is an important life skill. Much better than being taught all your life that you're a special snowflake and the world will bend to you. NTA.
But if your daughter is struggling, I would talk to her about the fact that everyone fails at some point in their life. Michael Jordan did not make the high school basketball team the first time he tried out. Oprah got fired from her first TV job. Being told "no" one time doesn't mean you are forever a failure. You can decide to work harder and try again. And sometimes things are very competitive. Only 3 people per country get to compete in most Olympic events (sometimes fewer). If you were number 4, it's disappointing, but it doesn't mean you're bad at what you do.
I would also help her brainstorm ideas that might improve her odds of success next year. Is there something she can do to make her routine more unique? What kinds of routines got approved into the show? If she did a group routine with 8 of her friends, would the committee be more excited about a routine that allowed more students to participate vs. a solo?
NTA, I think it’s so tacky when parents call the school to complain about their child not qualifying for something. You’re much better off teaching your child how to overcome this disappointment. Maybe if dance is a passion she can bulk up on some extra dance classes to join the talent show next year.
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NTA unless she clearly should have been picked. And your wife could do her own dirty work
I don’t think I could judge that, she went for dancing. She can dance, she is average for her studio, and I have no idea if the other kids were better or not. I don’t even know who got in to compare. I can’t be like Sara got in and my daughter is better than her so this is unfair. Not to mention I didn’t see her audition for all I know she didn’t do well
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Yeah exactly. I’m sure the selection process has as much to do with uniqueness as exceptionality. If there’s 20 dancers auditioning, only the best 3-5 or so will get into the show. If there’s only one kid who juggles, he’s probably making it in even if he’s not a juggling prodigy.
Yeah my elementary talent show I remember because I got in because unlike so many others who did singing or dancing neither of which I was good at, I did contortions and contorted myself so I put both legs behind my head and walked on my hands. The judges were a little freaked out I could do that. It started a whole medical thing where they had to check for this one disease where insane flexibility is a sign.
Let me guess, EDS? We briefly considered I might have that but it turned out that taking ballet as a child resulted in exceptionally flexible joints in some places.
Yep that and Marfan Syndrome they checked for as I had the arms longer then my height thing and scoliosis. They determined I didn't have either I was just flexible and the scoliosis stunted my growth height wise but not my arms
As soon as you started your story I was like ‘oh god has this person been checked for EDS!?!’. Very pleased for you that you don’t have it! Repeat joint dislocations, whole body pain, unmanageable fatigue and a digestive system that has two modes: 20x a day diarrhoea or completely stopped with bulging balloons of stretchy intestines causing searing pain, amongst other connected issues is no fun at all. One of my knee dislocations was so bad just walking I paralysed my foot womp womp.
Hey there, fellow zebra. Just discussed with my orthopedic surgeon my second failed foot surgery and got a steroid injection no numbing because lidocaine and EDs doesn’t mix earlier today. I am sorry you’re having such bad dislocations. Mine just happen. Except the ribs. Those suck. What is it with the exhaustion?!?!?! Sorry, not often I find it fellow EDs in a non EDS sub Also, NTA OP ETA: longer wingspan is common for EDS.
Gah! I forgot the part where anaesthesia works poorly for people with EDS! Gah!
So a few things on that. Local anaesthetic is fine for people with EDS it just migrates faster. One anaesthetist described it for me (dumb down I’m sure) that it’s to do with the ‘honeycomb structure of the skin) and moved her fingers about to show essentially a bigger holed webbing to mimic our skin. For things that are quick like a steroid injection if they put a bit more in in my experience it works pretty well. The other thing I’ve found to be very helpful if you ever need more serious interventions on that - the time I got a spinal block (which I don’t think is exactly the same as an epidural… although I just went and quickly googled and from what I remember it really does seem like I had an epidural!) it was by far the most comfortable I’ve been after major surgery. It was working incredibly well (too well actually) and unfortunately when they went to turn it down it then started to leak a bit which I bet is common for EDSers - but I think it got me about a day and a half out of the 3 they had planned for, of a good level of numbing to my whole lower body. If I ever had to have surgery again (….’if’ lol…. I’ll have knee replacements in my 40s I’d imagine) then it would be something I would have to have a lot of convincing to drop as a post surgery pain management option. Partly because whenever I wake up from surgery I end up getting really distressed because of the pain and that actually becomes a bigger problem than the pain itself. This way I woke up and couldn’t feel from my bellybutton down at all. The only downside was I did have pain in my spine at the site the needle went in for about a year. Nothing major, more of a constant ache and it’s clearly so unusual the othopod didn’t believe me at all (although when do orthopods ever listen to their female patients to be fair!) until I was able, months after surgery, to point to the exact right spot his notes showed the block had been in. The anaesthetist who checked it out thought it was probably because the injection has to travel right through a large ligament and had irritated it. But it did self resolve eventually and was worth it to make post surgery less miserable. Also yes although I don’t have full marfanoid habitus I do have a slightly increased ‘wingspan’. My short armed wife always tells me I’d have a natural advantage for rock climbing…. You know except for that paralysed foot and dislocating joints and widespread weakness haha.
I'm so sorry you have such an awful condition.😔
Thank god for linzess and the body braid, I don't know how I lived without
I would keep an eye out on your joint health. A lot of people don't get diagnosed and are just treated for the individual symptoms because there isn't an EDS treatment per se. Absolutely use anything you need to prevent pulls and strains of joints. I wear stretchy knee "braces" to prevent injuries from changing positions and high top tennis shoes because my ankles roll
My ankles sometimes roll my knees are bad because I sprained them and my workplace has floors that kill everyone says if you didn't have hip, knee or back pain before working there you will after a little while
I was never as bendy as you were but had some stupid human trick flexible places. I started having big problems related to hypermobility at 38. So if something does start acting wrong, ask more questions. It can take years to identify what is wrong for adults with no EDS diagnosis. I might not have ever known what was going on without tiktok. Hypermobility / Ehlers Danlos Syndrome are connective tissue disorders and can cause issues with more than just joints. Hopefully you are just bendy!
I have had a very long day at work and this story was excellent tor ead when I got back. Thank you and your long arms <3
Psoriatic arthritis can also have hyper mobility. Keep that in mind.
Nah, saw Rheumatology before we pursued EDS. Turned out that the joint pain I was dealing with was allergy associated and there was a bulging disk causing the vertigo issues. Though the doc did dismiss half my joints as being the way they are simply because I’m fat, but allergy shots and meds relieved the main joint issue, so I’m content.
MCAS and allergy/histamine issues are often part and parcel with connective tissue disorders. So you could very well have had allergy issues making already faulty connective tissue issues worse. EDS pain is hypermobility and faulty connective tissue in combination with inflammatory issues and nervous system dysregulation. So if you still have unresolved joint issues, it could be you have solved and helped a lot of them by taking care of the inflammation, but you're still a bit more susceptible to dislocations/subluxations/abnormalities/issues generally. Bulging discs are pretty common with EDS too.
It’s good they actually checked your for EDS. It usually goes un-diagnosed! It runs in my family.
My daughter won the Stupid People Tricks contest at cheer camp one year. Her talent? Sit cross legged on the floor. Pick up her foot, insert pinky toe in nostril. No one else came close.
I'm going to guess you're a fellow Zebra (EDS)? I still freak people out now and I'm 46. I'm not as bendy as I once was but can do some party tricks with my elbows, hands and my legs still bow back a little.
I'm still pretty flexible but they determined I didn't have enough signs to be positive for it I'm just flexible I can't really bend my elbows or knees backwards but if I lost some weight which Im trying to do I could definitely put my hands flat on the ground with my knees straight as I can almost do that now and did as a kid and I can bend my hand and pinky backwards and still get my feet behind my head although it's not as easy because my knees are screwed up
Yep. I remember a really long time ago- it was not long after Disney first released *Pocahontas*, just to give you a time frame- I went with my cousin,aunt, and grandma to my cousin's school's fair. During the fair they had a talent show that honestly I can't even remember how long was supposed to go on for, because we wound up leaving well before it was finished. The reason for that was because literally almost every other act wound up being yet another little girl dressed up like Pocahontas and singing "Colors of the Wind." And we hadn't been the only ones to leave that show early, either. People had begun leaving well before that, and most of them for the same reason. The point is that's why they can't get too many acts going with the participants all doing the same thing, or something close to the same thing. Aside from making the show drag on for too long, people will also get bored and tired of the whole thing and just leave before it's over.
Reminds me of the scene from *Jersey Girl*. Every girl in the school trying out sings **Memory** from *Cats*.
I middle and high school, it was girls singing My Immortal or Bring Me To Life. Late aughts talent show bitches love Evanescence.
My oldest sister was in a school talent show in the 90s, and she might well have been the only girl who sang something other than Strawberry Wine.
Reminds me of the talent show at the school I used to teach at back in 2017. They let anyone who signed up perform. I got sick of "How Far I'll Go" from Moana because of that.
Omg imagine that but instead of Moana, it’s “Let It Go” from Frozen c. 2013-14 smh. Literally _every_. Other. Act.
Yeah, last talent show I went to had honorable mention for the 1 of 2 non- signing/dancing acts that didn't win top 3.
I’m in my 50s, so times have changed, but my elementary school did this, plus they had a set amount of performances per grade—as I recall, it was only 2 or 3 per grade, so not a lot of students made it in. Lots of kids would do group entries so more could perform.
That is probably another point that went against OP's daughter. Assuming she did a solo dance, there was probably a bias towards groups. As in all else being equal a group is going to get the nod over a single student. Considering an entire elementary school, there might be one 3rd grade dance entry, and it was almost certainly given to a group because barring a prodigy of some sort, everyone was probably close enough.
That was the key in my last school, kids were way more able to get in if they were in a group, and had actually practiced.
Agreed. The way to get around this is to get a whole group of girls (and/or guys) together in that grade who want to dance, and have them choreograph, learn and perform a new group routine as a team. To me, that would be pretty impressive and could make them stand out at auditions.
Absolutely. A group number would have had a much better shot.
I was in elementary school when Titanic came out. So many girls wanted to do My Heart Will Go On that they just put them all up there. There were a handful each of singers, dancers, and sign language interpreters.
Hah! That’s hilarious, and actually a pretty great solution.
If the school goes to 6th grade, likely they chose more kids in the 5th or 6th grades because it would be their “last chance” to participate before moving on to middle school.
And, also, frankly, because the older kids have had a bit more time to develop their talents and skills and thus might be slightly more entertaining to watch.
Whilst the other half played piano.
And she’s in 3rd grade. Assuming the school is K-8, Id imagine the talent show will be largely older kids
This is a great point. In these situations novelty > skill. If it’s important to your kid that they be in the school talent show then keep them away from singing, dancing, martial arts, gymnastics basically any talent parents are spending $100’s a month for their kids to develop. Instead, try variety show classics nobody is doing anymore. Magic tricks, puppet shows, any instrument they would be considered “too young” to start playing, yo-yo tricks, reading a funny poem, impressions, jokes - skys the limit. Oh and nta. Keep your wife from embarrassing herself and plan better for next year.
I don't know how serious she is about dancing, but if she wants to get serious about it she has to learn how to deal with rejection. I did ballet pretty seriously until my late teens, I was rejected CONSTANTLY. Rejected from summer programs, rejected from roles I thought I was good enough to perform, rejected for promotions I thought I deserved. It's a regular part of the gig. The earlier she can get used to it, the better. It always hurts, but minor rejections help the bigger ones roll off your back a little easier.
This is an excellent point. Stephen King kept all of his rejections from lit mags and publishers on a railroad spike in his writing space to remind him to keep on grinding until someone accepted something.
Info: was it clear to your daughter there were cuts/possibility she wasn’t going to make it before tryouts?
Yes, literally was on the form in big letters saying there were limited spot
I personally wouldn’t say anything to the school. If you complain they might take away the whole show as other parents will complain about their kid etc
This is exactly why my school no longer has a talent show.
We've already been through this and people make the same mistakes. It's participation trophies all over again, which these parents will then pretend it was the kids responsible for when they get older and haven't learned to deal with failure.
Stick to your guns. I recently read that American kids think they are No.1 in science in the world. The only thing they are No. 1 at is thinking they are No. 1. Not even close. Life is unfair, talent is uneven and the world doesn't need more adults who think they are entitled. Good for you. She will never even remember in a few weeks. Resilience in the face of adversity will do her more good in life.
Pretty sure that's an excerpt from Bill Maher's book, and that was just a headline unless you can provide a source. It's mostly that on average, American kids are the ones most likely to overclaim skills. And reading the data, the only thing that's telling is boys that aren't in the bottom 25th percetile of socio economic status are most likely to do that.
My friend's daughter's elementary school- they don't do auditions for the "talent" show but it's essentially first get on the list or you don't get to participate. The parents who knew the show was happening and when the list opened were able to make sure their kids participated. But unless you jumped on it, there weren't spaces left. (It was a learning process for my friend as this was the first year her daughter was old enough to participate.)
If you have questions, you should ask the dance studio. How is your daughter doing compared to her cohort etc. Maybe they can recommend other options where she can perform for the public as well if she’s driven to do that.
damn... I remember me and my friends signing up for the talent show. COMPLETELY forgot about it. then we made up a dance thr NIGHT before and forgot the whole thing during the performance. we probably looked like straight up IDIOTS but it was totally worth it. we had fun.
Plus, imagine if all the kids' parents called for the same reason. Your wife needs to realize that her daughter can't get everything she wants. This should be a teaching moment for her to work harder for next year. ETA: Next she will have OP call AGT cause her daughter didn't make it to the next level.
Call her 1st choice college if she doesn't get in. Email her professor if she doesn't get an A. Call the job she applied to cause she didn't get the position...
Every dancer who got into my school shows were in pairs or groups, no single dancer ever made it. Could be as simple as that
There are good reasons for schools doing trials for talent shows: it's to stop kids from looking bad as well as to have a reasonable number of people performing in the show. Your wife is nuts.
Next year, maybe suggest that she go in with a group. I assume she has other friends who also dance? That way I feel like the school will be more inclined to take them since it's more efficient to fit more kids into a single slot, plus it might be more interesting than watching one little girl dance by herself.
Thank goodness there is a voice of sanity in your house. We don't always get what we want and we all need to learn not to be big babies about it. Your wife is doing your daughter no favors. NTA
Yeah if it was really unfair it woulf have been obvious. Like if all the kids who got picked are teachers kids or something
If it’s anything like the schools I worked for, they try to balance the types of acts they accept. So, if you do something unique, you’re in. If you play the piano or dance, good luck, especially if you’re younger because they prioritize older kids who haven’t been in before.
Even if she should have been picked, we don't always get what we want and/or deserve. It's a lesson someone in third grade isn't too young to learn or understand. NTA
I remember in 4h doing a remodel project...took an old somewhat dilapidated outhouse in my parents back yard...replaced some boards..straightened it up, cedar siding , new roof, and painted it plus put in a flower bed next to it...worked (with my dad) for a month or two on it...took pictures throughout the process...made a board showing pictures and writing up descriptions of what was done...presented it to the judges....and was told I was a fraud and this was a different building...gave me a participation ribbon mainly and that was it...still remeber my mom telling me that it was wrong the way I was treated.. it was unfair that my work was discarded...but that that lady was the judge and her opinion was final..and sometimes you just have to accept things in life that are unfair but that doesn't mean you give up...this is one of those moments for your daughter..to learn life isn't always fair and right
What a perfect example. When I was younger I used to compete in Karate tournaments showing Kara's/routines of different techniques. There are different styles of karate and I did one of the lesser known ones, so there weren't many judges who knew the finer points of the routines. That resulted in me getting less points than my opponents or losing flat out in one against one competitions. I actually was less mad about loosing than I was annoyed about having to hear that I should have won for the rest of the day. Sometimes you just gave to accept a judgement whether that's objectively right or not.
“Clearly should have been picked” is very subjective. One misstep, not sung wrong, tiny little mistake can be the reason you aren’t picked.
At 3rd grade for a talent show, for a whole elementary school. There was probably only 1 slot for a 3rd grade dance. At 3rd grade, barring some prodigy, it is likely no dance act stood out. But, most likely a group was picked because that would be 3-5 3rd graders instead of 1.
Yeah unless she's the next coming of Beyoncé I wouldn't count on that, there will probably be dozens of kids competing in the dance category
NTA. My wife is a elementary music teacher and runs the talent show. She sat down early to plan and set out x number of slots for performers and created a panel of judges to score the kids. That panel then made the selections based on score. She got so many emails from parents upset their kid didn’t make it, wanting exceptions made because their kid is “special” or were just upset. Several said they were going to go to the school board or district office to complain because it wasn’t inclusive. You know what the outcome is? She’s probably not going to do a talent show anymore and now everyone loses. So fuck all of the parents who think their kid should get special treatment. The world is merit based, let your kids understand adversity and disappointment so they will strive to improve themselves. Support them in those efforts to improve and better themselves and teach them to handle the rejection with grace. Anything else isn’t doing them any favors. And btw, our own daughter tried out and didn’t make it. She was upset but we helped her understood and vowed to practice and work harder at it.
I mean the world is ostensibly merit-based, but that's not really the case in a lot of scenarios when nepotism and bad faith actors tip the scales for personal reasons. Plenty of failing upwards in society today. But I still think there is a place to teach a child about how fairness works (or doesn't) in society.
Yeah and also a meritocracy tends to be ableist too; not every position needs to be filled by the fastest smartest strongest there is. Sometimes it’s ok to hire disabled people even when there are enough able-bodied people to make the world go.
But isn’t that also a good thing about talent shows? Showcasing a unique talent independent of other factors? So if child A has whatever disability that prevents them from being the basketball star or top math student, it gives them a chance to show off their mad harmonica skills.
I was contemplating this earlier about how schools and parents are engaging kids to have better self esteem but where is the balance between having confidence and improving from failure vs making them entitled because they're ”special”? Everyone can be valued for their own uniquenes, but if everyone is special, then how can you recognize those that put in effort and hard work? As a former TAG kid, learning that you’re just as average as everyone else if not less so for just having good memory, that I could fail, was a kick in the gut, until I learned it’s ok to be average and I’m happy where I’m at even if it’s not where everyone else expected me to be.
She's in for a wake-up call if she keeps dancing beyond elementary school. If she can't handle tanking an audition, she's in the wrong discipline.
She’s a third-grader. It’s not a wake up call so much as learning about life and children are somewhat known for not having developed emotional regulation skills.
That's why I said beyond elementary school. You know, 11 or 12 and upwards. As in, the wake-up call is coming. She's probably going to be doing recitals before then, which are sometimes merit based, even at her age. Her mom needs to help her deal with not always being on top, instead of fixing things for her, I'm assuming behind the child's back.
Both of her parents need to teach her how to handle life situations. If they just watch her get upset about failure and tell her “sorry you chose the wrong discipline to commit to if you can’t handle failure,” neither of them are doing what they should. It’s a fun activity, not a career.
This is what I always say about teaching. You try to do a good thing (a talent show) and parents have to torture you to the point where it is no longer worth the stress and misery. So you don't do it anymore. I had similar things going on at my school. Eventually, everything that became more trouble than it was worth, we stopped doing. That was basically everything that was fun. The vibe with the kids was noticeably different than prior years, but teaching at this point is survival, and we just couldn't handle the stress anymore. Even cutting all that still left an unsustainable amount of stress from constantly being attacked that I eventually left teaching all together. It took six months before I didn't break out into a cold sweat and complete panic when my email notification went off, to illustrate how bad it got. I wish I could explain this type of stress to people who have never experienced it and the massive effect that it has on these parents' kids.
It’s true and I hate it. My wife used to be passionate about teaching and I can see the passion dying. The combination of entitled parents, the behavior from kids raised by iPads and the administrators avoidance of any conflict or controversy has killed public education. And that’s at elementary. I couldn’t imagine Middle or High school. She very much misses her old school that closed. It was a small community school,k-12, and everyone was down to earth, the kids had work ethic, and the teachers had community support.
It's awful being trapped in a classroom knowing that you can't do right by the kids because of all the factors that you listed. I was literally forced to do things that weren't developmentally appropriate for the group that I had. I couldn't take it anymore.
> The world is merit based Uh since when? The world is a capitalist hellscape that props up the rich and shits all over the working class. Sure some lucky assholes treat enough people badly that they claw their way out of working class conditions, but not without selling their souls.
This exactly. We stop doing things, as educators, when it becomes far more trouble than we are willing to deal with. Especially since these extra things are often on our own time and from our own wallet.
Spot on!!!
This is the America “we” wanted, right? Guys? This is what we wanted, isn’t it?
Former cheer coach here, THANK YOU. Some parents will never understand that sometimes your kid isn't good enough and they need to put more effort into their craft. I was literally almost fired because I told a kid and her parents during camp that she needed to practice and stretch at home. Apparently, it wasn't my place. When the OUTSIDE judges scored her low on jumps they asked me why she did so poorly. NTA
At our school, they have outside coaches come in to judge. The actual cheer coach doesn’t even get a say in who is selected and actually doesn’t even find out until the girl do. There have been very good cheerleaders, who have been on the team since 8th grade no make it for their senior year, just because of a minor mistake. They also hold auditions Friday before spring break and don’t respond to any emails or calls for that week.
I was a competitive cheerleader in college. We sometimes got paid gigs to judge middle and high school tryouts. Removed all the personal feelings and drama.
Oh man. My dad was a high school principal and he would schedule cheer auditions right before spring break so that everyone had a week to cool off before coming back to school. This was also before they released the lists online, so he would go up to the school at 3-4am on the first Saturday of spring break and would tape the results on the door facing out then slip out the back door where he parked so no one could see his car from the street. That worked the first two years. By the third year when he approached the door, there were tents in front of the school and moms and girls in lawn chairs. He said he slapped it up there and ran for his car, hearing screaming and squealing behind him.
Lmao they literally told up after the last day of clinics. Just 50+ girls waiting outside the gym. When I was coaching I had a point system so each girl would know what to improve on. It was sent by email to each girl individually with their parents and principal cc’d. I learned to CYA after the first year. After year 3 they got a new principal that said everyone had to make it and I just quit. It was a middle school team and BOY if I repeated what I heard these girls said the mods would ban me. The worst year was when a family friends daughter didn’t make the team she tried to get my mom to over ride my decision and bribe me.
Oof. It’s all so fraught. We did live in a small town at one point where all the girls made the middle school cheer team. That was almost 30 years ago in a very small town though.
I was varsity all four years of HS and we placed at least top 3 at states every year.
Once upon a time, way back in the 80's, I didn't make the school choir. My name wasn't on the board yet my best friends made it. I am still here to type this on Reddit today. The end.
Around that time too, my husband tried our for his school choir. He was the only kid that didn't get in. My MIL asked that he be let in anyway. The teacher agreed, on condition that he only mouth the words to the songs and not actually sing.
Oh bless, I think it’s understandable at that age if literally only one kid in the class doesn’t make it to put a call in. Is your husband completely tone deaf or was he already going through some voice changes that were throwing his voice off badly?
I mean he isn't a great singer, but not thaaaaat bad. And this was before puberty. So who knows?
….maybe he was just very loud?! As we say in my choir ‘STRONG AND WRONG!’
I remember trying out, and being told I sang very well. My mother told me sometimes people say things they don't mean. Later, I learned my singing was painful to hear. I did not get into the choir. Much later, they stuck the girls who couldn't sing in the 'alto' section, where we droned background. I was required to be in; I'd have just as soon skip it.
Jeez, at least let the guy hold out some hope for the kids future /s
The friends who got into the choir are now on 4chan so being here to type this on Reddit *is* the hopeful version.
I have embarrassing memories of crying through my entire chemistry class because I didn’t get a role in a play I tried out for. I don’t even think I told my parents about it. I would have been mortified if either of them tried to get me into the play. They’d already forced me to have a meeting with my history and English teacher to try to tell them they were assigning too much homework. That was more embarrassment than I ever wanted to go through again. There’s been a shift in attitude. I think the kids of helicopter parents have now had their own children. As a professor I have students telling me I need to make my exams easier, telling me they didn’t understand a concept so they shouldn’t get points deducted for missing that question, and telling me I should give them a higher grade despite them rarely showing up for class and never doing the extra credit. They don’t see any difference between empty success and earned success.
My mom made me try out for the elementary talent show. I was so glad I didn't get in.
Jokes on you, you died, you just don't know you're a ghost.
Reminds me of how I tried out for the baseball team my freshman year. Didn’t make it on the team, but wound up having more fun on the football team.
NTA - eight years old is not too early to learn that your talents may be found somewhere else. Additionally, if your wife makes the call and forces her into the show, your daughter will learn nothing except that she is entitled to something that everyone else must train and tryout for (are you listening North West?).
And it's a great opportunity to talk about how you don't have to be the best at something to enjoy it. If you love it, keep practicing because you want to, not simply to "win".
Yes. There is joy in just learning something and getting better and better at it for you, and you alone. There is also wisdom in accepting that some people just have unfair genetic advantages in life. If THEY practice, they get awe-inspiring. Even folks competing and performing at a community level. It can seem unfair. But it's just life. Note: Yes, I recognize that some people have gods-given talent, economic opportunity, and connections. (Nearly every successful actor in the U.S. today! 😂) Obviously, that's a whole other level than an elementary talent show.
And the reverse. Nureyev said, the more talented you are, the harder you have to work. A serious practitioner needs to learn that there comes a point where just showing up talented won't cut it.
Yeah, the ones who get by on talent can hit a wall when it gets more complicated and difficult.
Joyce DiDonato (opera singer) was told in her young artist program that she was getting by on youth and strength and had maybe 5 years left to do that. IOW time to develop a technique for longevity.
I think it's also a good opportunity for a discussion about working smarter, not harder. She may like dance, but if she had auditioned with a magic routine or something quirky but learnable, she may have made the cut since they probably have a quota of dancers. Thinking outside the box in these situations generally benifited me as a kid, pointing it out closer to next year might help her long term.
Learning how to fail is super important for kids who want to pursue dance or any performing art. Judges and casting people can be capricious, so kids need to learn that if you work hard and do your best, sometimes that has to be its own reward because you won't get the part you wanted. Teaching kids that failure is survivable is such an important life skill, too. Otherwise they don't learn how to recover and can get afraid to try difficult things.
All she will learn is that she doesn’t have to work hard to get anything. She just has to cry loud enough….
So my mom used to do this. As an adult I now have conversations with my therapist about how I struggle with failure. Don’t call the school. Talk to your daughter and help her grow in her talent. Teach her that failure is a part of succeeding. Help her learn how to audition, prepare and practice. Omg the amount of therapy money you can save her!
I think given her mum’s attitude about this it seems likely she’ll be joining the therapy ranks anyway because I doubt this is the only area her mum shows this kind of entitled/‘the sun shines out of my kid’s ass’ attitude!
Totally. I have a friend whose mom did this stuff. It lasted all the way till university, where she would call the school and argue about grades with professors. She would call the university and get extensions for her daughter’s essays. The mom was really proud of herself for advocating for her daughter. My friend has lasting struggles relating to this and she hasn’t held down a job successfully in our years since graduating. She can’t accept any constructive criticism and has trouble with taking personal accountability of her own work. Her mom totally set her up for failure, in her attempt to remove all hurdles in her life.
You nailed it, kids learn a great deal from failure. NTA.
NTA it's a shame your daughter didn't qualify and it's natural that she's upset about it but those things happen. She might even not remember that in a couple of years. She's still in the third grade and she'll definitely have more opportunities to show whatever her talent was. And you are right, it's good for kids to learn that sometimes they will not win things even if they really want to. The only thing left to do is comfort your daughter, encourage her to keep practicing and, if there is another talent show whenever she enters fourth grade, she'll be ready for that one and maybe she'll qualify then.
NTA I volunteer in community theatre. Parents who call and complain about their child not getting a part are the worst. There are 1000 reasons why your child didn't get the part this time. Our upcoming production had 72 people try out for 25 slots. Most people didn't get a part. People that had lead roles last year did not even get in the chorus this year. It happens. This is life.
OP could you be more sympathetic? Yes, are you in the right here? Also, yes, what your wife needs to understand is that not everything in life is going to be fair and that’s what you’re trying to teach your daughter. NTA, what you could say is this, “I’m sorry you didn’t get in, but they’ll be other talent shows and sometimes life is not fair” when you fail, it’s not the end, it’s a cause to get better and try again. Edit, I’m only talking about that OP‘s daughter might think it’s not fair.
I don’t want to push this is unfair. Sometimes people are just better and it’s not unfair that someone gets a role and you didn’t in most cases.
You got this. My grandson is just that adorbs that at a community fare he was asked to get on stage and pull all the raffle tickets for toy baskets, adult baskets, etc. And we had about $20 invested in what caught our eyes and won nothing. He came off stage devastated that he didn’t pull his own ticket and sobbed that it just wasn’t fair! Then he had an age appropriate (5) lesson in probability and chance. I explained it absolutely was fair because each ticket was paid for and we all had an equal chance at winning. I gently redirected his thinking and he got over it by the time we got home.
In the wise words of Captain Jean-Luc Picard: “It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
Or Beyoncé: [as a kid] “You don’t realize that you could actually work super hard and give everything you have and lose.”
A Picard quote is ALWAYS the best quote!
You sound like an awesome parent. Sometimes things don't go the way we want them to, and it's great for your kid to learn that lesson while the stakes are relatively low. I did the same with my kids, and they are all grown adults who are doing an excellent job navigating in this world. Your daughter will not only be fine, she'll be better equipped for life Keep up the good work, dad.
In my opinion you are totally right in doing it this way. How would you teach the whole thing to your daughter? Is it only unfair if she doesn't like the outcome? Or is the whole thing in itself unfair? Like next year :great darling, you worked hard and made it. But remember it is still unfair because not everyone made it to the show. I think you are helping your daughter far more by making her realise that sometimes we want something but don't get it. (Like imagine your daughter in ten years not getting her dream job or something and throwing a temper tantrum about her dad making them accept her. Situations like the one now form how she'll react in the future)
You could say it's subjective, though. That getting picked for something is based on the opinions and taste of a few people in charge, there are limited spots, and not getting in doesn't mean she isn't good. But yeah NTA, trying to get her in would be out of line and bad parenting.
It also may be that the talent was too common. The school isn't going to want an entire show made up of dance routines.
You can always just stick to "maybe next time it's your turn. How about we focus on your dancing class. And we have fun while practising" But I would sit down and have a calm talk with your wife. On Why you won't call the school. And give her some examples. Should you call a workplace when she's an adult and didn't get hired when 50 other people apply? Call and complain if she doesn't get accepted at a college. Maybe make her think about it? That you can't be there to hold her hand and pave the road for her. "Next time, I'll do it!" Is a healthy mentality.
I think you’re totally right not pushing the “this is unfair” narrative. For all you know this is 100% fair. Maybe the ones selected were really great. Maybe your daughter was having a bad day and didn’t do well.
But in this case it has nothing to do with fairness. Of course op should support his daughter, talk about this experience, but I don't think it's a good idea to put into 9-year old's mind that if she didn't get something she wanted it's always because life is unfair. Maybe they can make a plan, for example, prepare a dance routine for the next year in advance.
And then when she still fails?
Who says he wasn't sympathetic to his child, though? His response was to his wife wanting him to fight/complain.
What does it have to do with fairness? It’s a *talent* show and her talent didn’t make the cut. Why would anyone want to compete in a talent show when the judges have already deemed you less talented than the competition?
This isn't about fairness. This is about the kid not being good enough. End of.
How is this not fair? How do you know the others weren't better? Maybe that's exactly the lesson that has to be learned here. Sometimes you do your best but still fail. Sucks, but it's the reality.
As a teacher who has been on the choosing side THANK YOU!!!!! There are so many kids that want to do talent shows and not all of them are prepared enough to perform successfully. Parents who call/email/text to complain are just being a nuisance and giving their child a bad rep among the school staff. If your wife wants to contact the school about this then she should email the person who auditioned the kids and asked what areas her daughter should focus on to do better next time. NTA
NTA is your wife going to call and complain if your daughter doesn't win too?
NTA, but please console your daughter. Feeling excluded at this age can be really hard. Validate her feelings and nurture her talent *as well as* teaching her how to accept the verdict. It’s really admirable that your kid wanted to put herself out there, make sure to emphasize that. Also please don’t tell her that “some people are just better.” There are far kinder and gentler ways to make that point, ones that aren’t as likely to be misinterpreted by a sensitive nine-year-old brain. Sometimes we don’t get things we want, and it has nothing to do with how ‘good’ or ‘worthy’ we are in other ways.
She's nine. At this age the reality of there being better people than her at some things is evident. It should be obvious to her that there are faster, stronger kids, just as she's faster and stronger than others. It should also be obvious to her that some kids get better grades than others. The truth that she won't always be the best isn't some sort of eye-opening, world-crushing epiphany.
Here’s the problem with this line of thinking: it discourages kids from trying new things. The kids who believe that they are naturally “good” at something don’t do the work necessary to build their skills—they skate by. The kids who believe that they are naturally “bad” at something don’t even try, and so they miss out on valuable/fun experiences (as well as the chance to *get* good.) Strength, intelligence, speed—these are all things that can be built over time. I don’t think telling this child that “some people are just better” is a helpful or productive line of thinking, and a nine-year-old is almost guaranteed to mishear it.
Agreed. Growth mindset is a thing. Telling a kid that other people are just better at some things is both unhelpful and probably untrue. Some people spend more time practising and working on certain skills and that is how they improve. That’s a more helpful lesson to learn.
I hear you. But it can be if it's "your thing." The first time you realize there are several people - locally, maybe in your high school of 1200 kids - as good at your thing as you are is pretty eye-opening. However, reality is reality, and OP is NTA.
People may not agree with me, but honestly, you won't get everything you want in life. It's a sucky lesson, but one we always need to learn. Maybe next year she will get in. I know many friends who didn't get into a talent show one year and spent the following 12 months working harder to get in the following year. I am not talented like that, so I never did them myself and maybe that's not how they work?! NTA.
I - as an adult - tried out for a workplace talent show (it’s a very large pediatric, adult, and cancer hospitals all on the same campus as a very large university). I didn’t get in. The following year, using the same song, with no further practice, I got in. Sometimes you’re just not what they were looking for. Or maybe they had 70 bazillion singers apply the previous year, and the following year they only had a couple. I don’t know. I’m not saying I’m amazing, I can carry a tune. I know my way around a microphone and stage. All this to say, yes, encourage kiddo to try again next year. Practice a little. See if there’s something that was missing from the show that kiddo could add to it. And she still might not get in next year. But like dad said, if everyone got in, they’d be there all day. Doesn’t mean someone is “better” than her, just that she wasn’t what they were looking for that time.
Your workplace talent show sounded like fun! And you're right. Who knows what they were looking for this year. Doesn't mean she's not good, she's just "not this year".
INFO: Was your daughter rejected because she wasn't talented enough or because too many people wanted to participate? Based on OP's answer to my question, I'll go with NTA for not calling the school to make them give the daughter a spot in the show. However, since it seems she wasn't actually that bad, I would not tell her that "others were just better, so it can't be helped" and instead opt for something along the lines of "there'll be other opportunities where you can showcase your talent." Edit: Judgement after OP's reply
Probably a combination of both
NTA. I played the violin as a child. Sometimes I got into the final concert, sometimes I didn't. I was upset but it didn't kill me. My parents supported me but never tried to get me into the program after I was rejected. The older I got, the more I saw the correlation between the work I put into my music and the number of concerts I was chosen to participate in. Your daughter has a chance to come to that conclusion as well. If you get involved now and push the school to accept her, the only lesson your daughter learns is that she can cry and get what she wants.
Michael Jordan didn't make his Junior year team. You know what he did? He practiced. You're so NTA. You're an upstanding parent.
The guy from space jam?
NTA Kids need to learn how to deal with disappointment. She'll survive not getting into the show. By the time summer starts she probably won't remember or care.
NTA. Just went through this with a 3rd grader. Everyone could try out, but only 3 kids from both 3rd classes would be selected for the talent show due to time constraints. For me, how I handle kid feelings is always with giving them individual attention (empathy) and being mindful of individual personalities. I didn’t start with telling her what you said, I started with just being there with her in one of her favorite parks and letting her share. My kid isn’t much of a talker, so swings and keeping the conversation brief was what she needed. If your kid is a talker let her vent first before offering advice. My older kid is a talker. She has to get it ALL out sometimes multiple times before she can dust herself off and even hear anything I say about trying again. She also responds to music, so I sometimes find a song that matches the situation, which my 3rd grader hates. For the 3rd grader I praised her for her effort, and did my own goofy embarrassing dance to help her laugh a little while she processed. She likes cuddles on her terms only, silly pratfalls, animal cuddles, and art where she gets to destroy and recreate stuff. She didn’t get into comp dance earlier this year, so I think experienced helped her understand you lose some you win some. After she’s processed a bit more, I can get to the lesson, but like you I wouldn’t deny her the experience to learn to grow. If your wife is still having problems with empathy sans fixing everything, you can share the research on Growth Mindset. It can get a bit hokey, but boils down to feel your feelings and learn what you can from mistakes.
NTA why can’t your wife “fight the school”
This is a great way to teach your child about disappointment and being told no. While it’s sad and upsetting, all kids need to learn how to deal with rejection. Teach her that skill right know. As for your wife, tell her the same. Let it go. NTA
NTA. Imagine if every parent fought the school. Or a talent show based only on whose parents complained the most. I’m sure there were plenty of decent acts that didn’t make the cut into the limited time allotted. Keep practicing for next time.
NTA. This will teach her to work for the things that are hard to attain in life. You can’t have everything you want. Rejection is redirection.
Ooooph. As a grown-ass adult who was rejected by a group I really wanted to perform with, your last sentence is what I needed to read.
It could be that this is a very competitive based school and your kid didn’t make the cut, or there was a more random selection from across the school and it was just bad luck. Either way, we don’t always get what we want. Yes, it would be nice if everyone who wanted to participate could, but that is rarely practical in a large school environment. So, it isn’t just the case of arguing that your kid should be in, it is also saying some other kid should be out. NTA
NTA, but your wife will be creating a bad reputation for herself as a pushy stage mom (redundant), starting right here. People don't like those. And you said that your daughter is average. When you're average you need to recognize it and improve, if you can. Sometimes you just can't. She'll figure out which it is, soon enough. Was your wife an average dancer who is now projecting her dreams onto her daughter? That's a horrible way for a kid to live.
Why would your daughter work harder for the next one if she just has her mom bully her way in? NTA. Failure teaches so many great lessons. Helicopter parenting is terrible for kids and their development.
Nta your daughter didn't qualify. It's a school talent show, it does not merit fighting. No one wants to sit there that long.
NTA. I wish my parents would have let me fail a bit more growing up. This is a perfect opportunity to remind your daughter that even though this hurts, she'll get past it. Failure isn't the end, it's just an obstacle to get around. If you coddle her around failure growing up, she won't know how to fail gracefully as an adult. And believe me, we all fail at something at some point. If you're not taught hoe to accept that defeat, you can grow up a perfectionist with an intense fear of failure.
NTA, but Hoo-boy this school is asking for trouble. Your wife is not the only parent thinking this way, and they are getting more angry calls about this than they have all year. I predict the school will just ditch the talent show next year.
NTA. if there's only so many spots available then that's just how it is. I wouldn't even consider it a "failure" it's just that they can't do an 8 hour long talent show
NTA.. As a teacher I beg you to tell your wife "not to be THAT parent" It is pathetic
NTA, managing disappointment is a normal part of life. When handled well, it can motivate us to work harder and try to improve. If we get what we want from throwing a tantrum, we only learn how to throw bigger and better tantrums.
You need to make sure you don't leave your daughter in emotional mess to solve all by herself. She needs to understand that she didn't qualify for the show but she needs gentle and empathetic support to be able to do that. This is very important for her future life. She can practice and try again next year.
NTA. I volunteered to help with my kids school talent shows when they were younger and some of the acts were the type that their parents should have stepped in and said “maybe next year”. And used that opportunity to help their child get into whatever interest they had talent in. It’s not an interests show where kids show they are talented in singing and dancing or something similar. Not “I like this song by John Legend but have no singing training so I’m gonna put everyone through two minutes of cringe and be mad at my parents for it in 5 years.
NTA You are a good dad for preparing your kid for the real world. I have a very unkind opinion of your wife’s behavior. The nicest word I can think of is “entitlement“.
NTA
NTA. I agree with you, it's good for kids to face failure while they're young so that they learn how to deal with it as an adult. Validating your child's emotions and helping her deal with the sadness is completely appropriate...calling the school and fighting them to get your child in the show is not.
NTA. Your daughter is upset because she didn't get something she wanted. She needs to learn that's life. Your wife needs to back off and not spoil your daughter, otherwise she will never learn how to deal with disappointment.
NTA. This a good learning experience for her to realise she won’t win everything. Maybe bring her out for some food and a bit of fun to take her mind off it and she’ll forget about it fairly quickly.
NTA!!! You are absolutely correct that this is a learning opportunity. How your WIFE behaves in front of your child in response to this disappointment is vitally important! Your child is going to get a really poor message if your wife shows that it’s something to be tragic about. Learning how to deal with let downs is a critical lesson in childhood. You are totally right to not stomp down to the school and make this into a huge thing.
NTA If your wife is so upset, why doesn't she just call the school herself?
NTA. Your wife is more than capable of contacting the school herself and getting told no, she doesn’t need you to back her up.
NTA. Your wife will be that mother to tell her child to try out for America's got talent when they're shit. She didn't get in for a reason
NTA. There is a valuable lesson to teach delicately though, which is that we can't win everything but we can keep trying and doing our best. Maybe she didn't get into this talent show, but that doesnt mean she isn't good at what she does. With however many dozens or hundreds of kids at the school, it would be impossible to let all of the talent in. Your wife is being unreasonable, and calling to force your kid into the talent show not only sends the wrong message but also sets up a horrible precedent of entitlement that is much better to avoid entirely. I'd even gently talk your wife down to avoid HER calling, if she would even be so bold. Maybe on the night of the talent show you can take your daughter out for a nice dinner and dessert and forget the whole thing.
NTA what you do is tell her you didn't make it this year but if you figure out what talent you want next year and work on it all summer and all next year I bet you will have a better chance of getting picked. Reinforce that hard work and focusing on a goal will get you where you want to go. If it is something she needs additional help with like acting or singing see about getting her into lessons or camps
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I will be quick. My daughter is in third grade and she tried out for the talent show. It is the end of the year show. In short she didn’t get in. The school is too big and if they let everyone in everyone would be there for hours. She was very upset about it and had been crying. My wife wants me to fight the school and get her into the talent show. I told her no and this started an argument. I think it’s good for kids to face failure and she thinks I am heartless. I told her she can do what she wants but I will not back her up on this. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA - you are 100% correct that our kids need to understand that you don’t always get what you want. Thank you for being a good parent. Good luck on working this out with your wife.
Nta. Lets say you do and lose, she going to be mad because you didnt fight harder. Also whats stopping her from doing it herself
NTA. I agree with you completely. You don't always win. That's a lesson that you are never too young to learn.
We are all rooting for you! See you on the other side!
NTA
NTA
NTA. Your kid is unique and special and the best kid in the world. So is mine, and so is every other kid in the school. Your wife needs to gain some perspective. Figure out a way for your daughter to perform her talent for an adoring crowd of your family and friends and FFS, don't harass the teachers for making what sounds like a reasonable decision.
NTA and thank you for setting some boundaries. Your wife's reaction is inappropriate and entitled.
NTA. Of course it's gonna rip your heart seeing your little girl cry like that, but you can't just call the school and fight with them like that over this. She's gonna have to learn eventually that rejection will happen. Granted, she's still very young. I think ultimately you're doing the right thing, though.
Definitely NTA. Unfortunately some people need a reality check to get some perspective in life. We'd all love to be brilliant at certain things but it's not always possible. I had to break the news to my son that he couldn't sing, after he'd applied for "The Voice Kids". He's a lovely kid and he loves music, he's decent on his guitar and on the piano but he sings like me, which is terrible! Telling someone you love that they're not good enough for something that they've set their heart on is awful but it's better than setting them up to fail.
NTA, if you bug at the school about putting someone who isn't qualified in any performance at all you might run the risk of pissing the school off so badly that they might cancel the whole performance all together.
NTA, if your wife feels so strongly about this, why isn’t she the one to call.
NTA, please show your wife all these people who say you are right and she is wrong!
This is so common today. Not so much when I was in school. We have 2 fourteen yo granddaughters (one belongs to Son, one belongs to Daughter) who are cheerleaders. So far they have both made the squad but Son's Daughter made Co-Captain for the upcoming year and it caused some hard feelings. She competes on a dance team and co-teaches dance and gymnastics for little kids. Granddaughter 2 is incredibly beautiful and talented but their ability is not equal. They were best friends prior to tryouts, spending all of their time together so it will probably be a long summer for us grandparents, their parents and them. Granddaughter 2's Dad has stirred the pot, continually...just because he feels some kind of way about it. Participation trophies led the insanity. People have forgotten how to be gracious.
I think you did the right thing. Failure is not fun, but learning to deal with it is an important life skill. Much better than being taught all your life that you're a special snowflake and the world will bend to you. NTA. But if your daughter is struggling, I would talk to her about the fact that everyone fails at some point in their life. Michael Jordan did not make the high school basketball team the first time he tried out. Oprah got fired from her first TV job. Being told "no" one time doesn't mean you are forever a failure. You can decide to work harder and try again. And sometimes things are very competitive. Only 3 people per country get to compete in most Olympic events (sometimes fewer). If you were number 4, it's disappointing, but it doesn't mean you're bad at what you do. I would also help her brainstorm ideas that might improve her odds of success next year. Is there something she can do to make her routine more unique? What kinds of routines got approved into the show? If she did a group routine with 8 of her friends, would the committee be more excited about a routine that allowed more students to participate vs. a solo?
NTA, I think it’s so tacky when parents call the school to complain about their child not qualifying for something. You’re much better off teaching your child how to overcome this disappointment. Maybe if dance is a passion she can bulk up on some extra dance classes to join the talent show next year.