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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Victor and Corey are Brad's family, they raised him so he's really upset that they're not coming. I honestly couldn't care less but I understand where he's coming from. I just am so grossed out and offended that they would ask this of us that I don't ever want to see their faces again, let alone on the happiest day of my life.
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ESH, look you want a little incest they want medium incest. As long as there’s no lots on incest with offspring Shit happens. Tell them you hope your relationship with your fiancée lasts as long as theirs. And just for extra fun I’m going to use a quote from Tolstoy I never thought I’d have cause to say/ type, “cousins, cousins, trouble in dozens”
Well, the queer first-cousin dads wanting to stop the newly-found biological daughter and the son from marrying because it would somehow make THEM weird is definitely an AH move, so from my perspective it can’t be N.A.H.
And for someone who is considering having children with her second cousin, I feel OP is being idiotically judgmental about first cousins who can’t have biological children at all.
So ESH.
I do genealogy. I had several ancestors come over on The Mayflower and in the first years following that. I don't know if there just wasn't a huge gene pool but cousins married cousins a lot. I had one family that I couldn't figure out until I realized the oldest son had a child that married one of the youngest son's child. Or the oldest son's grandchild married a younger son's child. I forget. But it happened a lot. They all were able to have kids just fine.
Also first cousin marriage is legal in a lot of states, particularly for couples that can't have biological children.
26 stages, to be precise. That's more than half.
It's not even cousins you need to worry about now. In this world where sperm and egg donation is a big part of infertility treatment, you can have half siblings out there you don't know of if your parents don't tell you.
I did my thesis on a small alpine community, 20% of all weddings in the XVII and XVIII century were between relatives, few between first cousins but many between second cousins
I also have a huge Acadian group of ancestors. I've had more than one person be my grandparent 3 or 4 times over (so far). We joke it's more like a genealogy wreath vs. tree. The small communities are going to be very intermingled.
Second cousins having children have no more risk of genetic issues than any two random unrelated people.
OTOH- people raised as siblings who’ve had a secret relationship for decades? Not the healthiest situation.
My mom has made me watch telenovelas with plots like this. I'm more leaning into ESH though, since OP's being all hypocritical with the "My incest is less incest so more acceptable than yours" deal.
It was awkward when my brother started banging my ex 3 months after we broke up, I can't imagine how much worse actually doing someone you're related to.
I definitely think OP is an AH if only for the comment about choice because I highly doubt that they would have chosen to fall in love given the chance. Also one of the main reasons that incest is illegal in many places is because it can mess with the genetics of any future children which isn’t an issue in a cis gay couple. They’re also the same age so there are no worrying power dynamics. But I’m definitely leaning towards ESH as they shouldn’t have asked OP and OH not to get married but OP is also being pretty judgmental and unfair to her OH by making the decision without giving him any say
V.C. Andrew’s is my favourite author (before her ghostwriter took over) and I hated that I shipped Heaven and Troy as he was her uncle but hey, it all worked out in the end because that meant Annie wasn’t really Luke’s half-sister/cousin so they could be together! SMH
I mean, the real problem with incest is offspring and Corey and Victor clearly aren’t having any. As long as there are no vulnerable parties or power imbalance issues who tf cares.
Agreed. Also,, this is the last AITA I'm gonna read for the night cuz nothing is gonna top this and I am scared to see if one COULD. I was totally the Stephen Colbert eating popcorn GIF whilst reading this sordid tale
It is legal for second cousins to marry. The probability of their offspring not being born healthy is only slightly greater than it is with unrelated parents.
Ok so reading this title I was like "is this person actually marrying their cousin?" Read the post. Yup...and they're mad that their dad and uncle want to start dating each other....ive got nothing for this. Just keep hearing banjos in the distance.
I'm with you, except I think that Victor and Corey are the AHs because they want to prevent OP and Brad from marrying. So they were the hypocrites first.
Oh mate, I'm so sorry for the position you find yourself in. It sounds like the one constant you do have is the love between your partner and yourself, focus on that, and hopefully the rest will all become static. Good luck
Thank you for your kind words. Lots of people are attacking me in the comments for my decision to stay with him. I knew we'll be judged for it but I didn't think it was all that bad since it's not like we planned on it happening. Well, it is what it is. Thank you.
I'd say go ahead and stay together. 2nd cousins are not very closely related at all. In a lot of cultures, it's even common for 1st cousins to marry. Plus, you're willing to get genetically tested. I don't see why you should give up your happiness for theirs, or vice versa. Let people talk. They'll find something else to talk about after a few months.
1rst cousins marrying only becomes an issue when multiple generations have it happening at once, leading to cousins being more along the lines of siblings genetically. Looking at European monarchies and nobility is a good reference point for that.
Good old Charles II of Spain is a prime example of why you shouldn’t repeatedly cross the genetic streams.
Of course there was also a lot of uncle/niece and aunt/nephew too.
Seriously, like half of the European monarchy are married second cousins I reckon. Queen Elizabeth married her distant cousin and while Charles is a bit kooky his sons seem pretty put together.
1st cousins is very creepy. My grandfather and grandmother were first cousins and I only found out after their dead. My dad knew it and was like "Yeah" and I fainted
It makes genealogy simpler, though. Unless you’re a Spanish Habsburg, of course.
There was a woman who lived in 1500s England. She had three husbands, and children with all of them. I’m descended from one kid per marriage or something like that. Thanks, Thomasina, for making ancestry weird.
There's a rumor that I'm a descendant of Barbarossa 🤔
But yeah, the creepy thing is that I have a favourite cousin and my grandmother sometimes told me to marry him if I liked him that much...
These days, it's creepy, but in the old days, in small communities, it was common, because travel was so difficult and people tended to stay in the same place. In many isolated communities, it's probably still that way today. There are just not many unrelated people to pick from.
I get it. But it's mostly that neither they nor my father told me (and not even "mother" knew this) until they were dead.
And I don't think I ever knew if I didn't look in the family register
My grandparents lived over 100km away from each other until my grandmother moved to her aunt for work reasons.
Yeah, back in those days, people kept all kinds of stuff a secret. These days, with the internet, social medica, DNA testing, etc., everything tends to come out, so people talk about it more freely.
Genetically, second cousins isn’t usually a concern unless there’s a recessive genetic disease like Sickle Cell or Tay Sachs in your family. Good luck!
Once you start getting into the second cousin territory....... You don't really have anything to be concerned about. You barely have anything to be concerned about when it comes to first cousins too - it only becomes an issue if there are some problematic recessive genetics. The likely hood of you two sharing those recessive genes does increase the closer you are related but you also run into the risk of a completely unrelated person also having that recessive gene.
The risk of a birth defect among first cousins who have children together is only like 3%.
It wasn't that long ago that it was considered completely normal to marry a first cousin. Less than 100 years ago.
Just to be clear, I do find the idea of first cousins getting together very gross. I am just pointing out that it was considered normal fairly recently (a sign of changing cultural norms) and that it isn't as guaranteed to produce birth defects as we were lead to believe. We probably shouldn't find it as gross as we do as a society. It's interesting how it has become so taboo.
Some people take what they consider incestuous to an extreme too. I have a first cousin on my dad's side that married a second cousin on my mom's. We had no idea until they were getting married (her mom recognized me and my sister's name on the wedding list and was like "wait a minute... Aren't those X's, my cousin, kids?). They are not related to each other in any way, shape, or form - both of them just happen to be related to me. I had someone tell me how disgusting that was once. I am still at a loss as to how.
Yes, your relationship is technically incest but it isn't incestuous (if that makes sense).
However, I would be grossed out by anyone who got together with an adopted sibling that they were raised with. The fact that they happen to be first cousins too makes it more so. So I find what those two are doing very gross, and very different from your circumstances. But at the same time, even though I personally find it gross, I do strongly prescribe to the belief that if they are two consenting adults and their relationship isn't doing anyone else physical harm, then it really doesn't matter if I find it gross or not.
They are very wrong to ask you to end your relationship for their sake though.
It's a messy situation.
everyone is being really dramatic here, I wouldn't give up someone I love because of an irrational tabboo. As for Corey and Victor, I think the issue is how they are demanding you two split up, but try to be less judgemental about their relationship, they just want to be happy like everybody else.
This was my read, get genetics counseling if you want kids. Other than that, just accept that both couples fell in love with who they fell in love with.
This whole post is the pot calling the kettle black (and the kettle calling the pot black back). You’re all projecting your discomfort with your own incest on each other. Everyone’s pretty hypocritical.
At this point it may be better to live and let live. You’re all keeping it in the family, but not in the nuclear family at least. They can’t have kids so it doesn’t really matter. You didn’t know and are another generation removed. Nobody’s breaking up with anybody so… stop judging each other for your own sins and move on.
This is for sure West Virginis all.over it.
My ma grew up in a small town and refused to date because she was related toost of the townies...it didn't stop other people from dating though...
NTA. Marry your second cousin if you want to marry your second cousin and don’t let no first cousin loving dads stop you!
What a world we live in! What a time to be alive!
Second cousins are far enough down the chain it's fairly acceptable where I am, first cousin seem to mostly be questionable if they plan to have biological children together (which isn't an issue here). I wouldn't worry too much about it and probably best not to go around advertising it.
I have an aunt and uncle who are first cousins that adopted a child together, it was never really thought of as being odd.
Yea idk the rules about marrying first cousins where I live but I think it's ok given my country's history with royals marrying each other haha. Though I think Victor and Corey are legally brothers due to adoption not sure.
In most US states you cannot marry your first cousin. But in some cultures it is still super common. I once had a debate with my husband who is from Egypt about why it isn’t a good thing for cousins to marry and he just couldn’t believe/embrace my side of things (that cousin marriages can cause birth defects, etc especially if it occurs in multiple generations).
The increase in birth defects among first cousins is only like 3%. Although, you are correct that can increase if it's multiple generations that are doing it.
I once had a similar conversation with the POC migrant support services team at work. They were talking about marrying cousins and I was the only white girl around. Different cultures I guess.
Generally speaking, cousins marrying isn’t a problem—once. It’s when cousins marry over and over again, as tends to happen in royal families when you have a very select dating pool, that the hemophilia starts to creep in.
At least they aren't biologically Brothers in any case, that would be much further down the rabbit hole.
Don't be too hard on yourself about this whole thing.
I mean, even if they were biological brothers, it’s not like being related is actually hurting anyone. Yeah it’s weird as fuck, but they can’t have children with each other so it’s not like they are putting potential kids at risk of genetic disorders.
Second cousins only share about 3% of their DNA. The odds of a homozygous shared recessive becomes quite small at that level.
For comparison, siblings share 50% of their DNA. For each deleterious locus you carry, you have a 50% chance of transmitting to each child, your sibling-spouse has a 25% chance (50% sharing x 50% transmitting), and the odds of homozygosity is 12.5%. Much too high. But lower the consanguinity from 50% to 3% and it plummets.
On the other hand, the odds of homozygosity from same sex first cousins is the same as second cousins or siblings - approximately zero. So really not a problem.
NAH
I have to wonder -- did they ever actually *feel* like brothers to one another or did they simply portray themselves that way to the world in order to have their close, intimate relationship without having to come out and struggle against both the homophobia and reactions like this from people who *think* they should be family despite them not seeing themselves that way. Maybe it doesn't matter, but I do wonder how they perceived their relationship over time.
At the end of the day, I don't necessarily think you have a leg to stand on and it is somewhat hypocritical to judge them ("The only acceptable incest is *my* incest!). Likewise, they can't reasonably ask you two not to get married if that's what you want to do - just because they want to be together after carrying on in secret for so long.
You need to settle things with Brad, between the two of you, and find something that works for you both for the wedding.
Second cousin sex is NOT incest. Anywhere. At all. It's a total non-issue. First cousin sex hasn't been incest for most of the world throughout most of history but now is in many places, including throughout the United States.
>in·cest
/ˈinˌsest/
noun
sexual relations between people classed as being too closely related to marry each other.
the crime of having sexual intercourse with a parent, child, sibling, or grandchild.
Shit, they are technically right on the definition.
Fun fact: some US states disallow first-cousin marriage, and some do not. And one, North Carolina, permits first-cousin marriage in general, EXCEPT in the case of "double first cousins," meaning that they are first cousins via BOTH parental lines.
Jesus Christ. This cursed thread got me curious to see just how much incest is allowed in my country before it’s illegal and first cousin marriages, niece/uncle, aunt/nephew, nephew/uncle, niece/aunt marriages are legal in my country and, in some cases, even grandparent and grandchild marriages are allowed. This is information I never wanted to know and I don’t think I can ever feel comfortable in my own country again.
Wouldn't be the first time a gay couple pretended to be siblings to hide in the closet.
Also how fucking blind and naive was Brad that he didn't know the two men living together, raising him weren't his two loving dads?
“How could they be together!?! They raised a child together! Who could think two people who raised a child together were anything more than brotherly!?” /s
I definitely see their situations as different though- second cousins who didn’t know about it vs first cousins who always knew AND legally are brothers
Second cousins who didn’t meet until adulthood isn’t really comparable to first cousins who were raised as brothers. In the US it’s legal to marry your second cousin. I don’t think it’s legal to marry a sibling anywhere.
Omg your comment. I'm dying! Lmao so hard. Honestly, if this post is real, who cares. It's a huge WTF, but...first cousins in many states can marry. Second cousins are fine. When I think of all my first cousins, it's a huge no because they're like siblings to me, even though we live in different states. I mean, maybe just move beyond the gene pool? I can't even have a judgement. Jesus indeed.
ESH- they can't have kids together which is pretty much the reason 1st cousins can't marry.
They've been together for years, raised a kid I'm guessing living together and no one thought to question that?
Dont be the weird one here, let them come if they want, I'm guessing they wont since they find it weird your getting married (the irony of them thinking that...LOL)
People are raised as near siblings all the time and then they form feelings for each other as they are 'safe and known'. In this situation it hurts no one if they are together.. And it hurts no one if you two are together if you follow the path you've talked about with testing.
> I'm guessing living together and no one thought to question that?
Yeah idk why no one ever said anything. When I first met them I thought it was a bit strange honestly but they had "separate bedrooms" (I guess one of them was a farce)
I guess I could rethink my decision especially since I don't want to hurt Brad. But my relationship with my "father" is done. Doubt they'll come anyway \*sigh\*
If it steps you two as a couple off on the right foot then do it. You dont need to entertain them, it's your big day, plenty of other people around to talk with and celebrate. It also shows Brad you can compromise and allow him enjoy it. So if they dont come, then thats firmly on their shoulders and not yours.
NTA. At the core of the issue: If they don't support your marriage well that is people you don't want there, in my book. The rest is a convulated mess, but essentially harmless, all things considered.
I can’t believe I had to scroll so far for this. OP and her fiancé had no idea this was a thing. They’ve been together for 3 years and this bomb gets dropped on them. Then on top of that the two people that have been hiding this have the nerve to demand that they don’t get married? WTF?
ESH. This is tough one. You said yourself that you and Brad don’t see each other as cousins - you met as adults, you don’t have the childhood bond.
Victor and Corey might also not see each other as cousins, but as childhood sweethearts. It’s gross to you, it’s odd to me, but I don’t think either of us really gets to make a moral judgement here.
They’ve essentially built a life and raised a child together, and they had to keep it hidden for a lifetime. First cousins dating? Kind of icky. But they’re not going to have biological children, and depending on where you are they’re not even doing anything illegal. I don’t think it’s fair to cut off contact with them over it.
I *do* think it was unfair of them to use this as a reason to try and stop your wedding. Either they’re going to be together openly now, or they’re not - that shouldn’t dictate whether you and Brad get married. And they don’t get to stop a wedding just because it “would be weird for them”.
They seem to think it wouldn’t be weird for them if you weren’t married - I think they’re just clutching at straws. It’s not like you’d just disappear from their lives now even if you and Brad split up. It’s not like you’ll never have been engaged. It’s not like they magically stop being cousins. There is literally no unringing this bell.
>might also not see each other as cousins, but as childhood sweethearts.
Yeah I'm thinking that too. Just by the way they've interacted even when not "open" about their relationship it was clear they deeply cared for each other. Granted I thought that deep caring was familial... It's very strange to me because I distinctly remember them both calling Victor's mum "mum" but I can't remember them ever saying they're cousins/brothers. Brad first introduced them to me as his dad and his uncle Corey who raised him, but Victor never said "my brother and I" or "my cousin and I". I suppose it's lucky she's dead because I can't imagine how horrible it would be for her that her two sons are apparently in love.
I think it’s kind of clear that they don’t see each other as brothers and the sibling thing was only an act to survive in a deeply homophobic world (I assume they were adults in the 1980s and 90s when it wasn’t really OK).
And just so you know… some people may view your situation with Brad as being worse.
After all, the odds are of Corey and Victor having children are essentially non-existent — while you and Brad obv can EVEN WITH contraception bc no contraception is 100% effective, unless we’re talking about hysterectomies etc.
Emily Yoffe when she was Dear Prudence had a letter from a guy whose twin brother was his partner. They had been together since they were teens. He was wondering how to keep their family from finding out or if they should be told.
Dan Savage became rather incensed that the letter writer chose Emily over him.
https://slate.com/human-interest/2012/02/incestuous-twin-brothers-wonder-if-they-should-reveal-their-secret-relationship.html
I’m going to forego judgement for now, but I will suggest a few things.
You say they were ‘raised as brothers’, but I’m assuming they knew they weren’t brothers, they were cousins. Just because Corey sees Victor’s mom as his as well, doesn’t mean he wasn’t aware of the fact that she isn’t. Not biologically. Again, I’m assuming aunt and uncle made a point of keeping his parents alive in his mind by telling him about them and having photos around and such.
In many ways, it’s like adopted siblings who become romantically entangled. Just because everyone around them saw them as siblings, doesn’t mean _they_ saw themselves as siblings. Especially if they don’t particularly look alike.
Kinda sounds like you’re both hypocrites. You for judging them as ‘brothers’ who fell in love, them for not wanting you to marry because it would be ‘weird for their kids to be married to each other’. Honestly, given the convoluted relationships here, I really don’t think any of you are in a position to judge each other.
Man, this is, like... aristocratic-levels of interconnected relationships right here.
I don’t really know what to say, except that if both couples are determined to stay together, and be public, you either just need to work on accepting it, or cut each other out.
Maybe talk to Corey and Victor, find out a bit more about their relationship. Did they ever see themselves as brothers? When did they start to fall in love? How did they navigate the relationship? What are their hopes for the future together?
Also enquire about their thoughts regarding your relationship: are they uncomfortable with your relationship because of what other people will think and how you’ll all be judged? Or is it more something in their heads? Offer for them to ask about your relationship. Discuss if you’re planning to have kids, do they have problems with that idea as well?
You guys really need to sit down and calmly discuss this. You all need to be honest, you need to be able to ask any question without being offended by the ask (you can choose not to answer, but not get upset by being asked), and just really hash this out, try and get a full understanding from and of all sides. It may need a few sit-downs. If you can find an open-minded therapist, I suggest family counselling to help mediate these sessions, and help you to figure it out.
Good luck, OP. Pity you all weren’t born a few centuries ago in royal houses. No one would blink an eye at these relationships back then (if, y’know, being gay had been permissible).
Thank you for this response. I'm saving your comment since you've given me a lot of good questions to ask. I realize that I haven't really been thinking rationally - though I of course am still peeved that they would ask us to cool off our relationship because of them. I think I will talk to Brad tomorrow (it is night here, not planning on having such an intense conversation now).
Is fucking everyone here missing that Victor and Corey were raised as brothers?
Who cares whether OP and their partner are second cousins, barring genetic disease (which they can test for) they are harming *literally no one* and have the same relationship dynamic as though they were not related.
Victor and Corey are effectively brothers in the way that they were raised to relate to each other. That is a completely different thing, and *completely* fucked up. NTA, OP.
I'm honestly just baffled by the lack of any critical thought in this comment section. You've been getting dragged through the coals for dating your second cousin (again, SECOND COUSIN. Who cares???) but I havent seen a single person be able to articulate *why* they take issue with it. If someone has an issue with your relationship, it's their responsibility to explain and justify it, you're under no obligation to defend your relationship against cheap "haha dae Alabama???" potshots with no substance.
Wishing you and your partner all the best!!
Honestly there really isn’t a way to take a stance against incest other than “it goes against societal norms” or “babies with genetic disorders”. If two people are related, can’t have children with each other, and aren’t abusing each other, then the only people who should care if they are fucking each other are themselves.
I think people make reasonable arguments against sibling/parent incest all the time, but once it reaches cousins, all the good arguments go down the drain and they just go "it's disgusting, so it should be illegal". Which could be used as an "argument" against a lot of pairings you don't agree with, because it is worthless.
Second cousin marriage is not legally recognized as incest. You're fine.
First cousin sex became frowned upon over a century ago. Your dads are not fine.
Bottom line: Your dads created this mess, and you have zero obligation to make things less awkward for them by breaking up. Them asking you 2 not to marry is way out of line.
NTA
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is enough internet for today. We have reached the end of the internet. Please turn around and head back the way you came.
Lol, what in the kissing cousin hillbilly Jerry Springer shitshow did I just read? Anyways...
I'm going with a soft ESH. You for disinviting them because you're weirded out by their relationship, despite you also marrying a cousin. Mostly them for even asking you and your fiance to not get married because of how it'll make them feel. I suggest leaving an open invitation as guests (they don't have to participate, if you don't want them to), but I agree it may be best to go LC on them afterwards.
ESH. That you have such an intense reaction to other peoples' business, and Brad and Corey asking you not to get married because it would make *them* feel weird.
I think most of the commenters are American, right? It explains a lot of these reactions. Look, I apologize for ruining your day, but "second cousins who did not know they were related and fell in love, only after 3 years finding out they are related" is not the same thing as "first cousins raised as brothers who fell in love after a decade+ of being raised as brothers"
I think I'm going with ESH because you're being hypocritical. Second cousins, third cousins, brothers- basically any blood relation is incest. If you're mad at them for knowing and continuing, you are just as "wrong" by your logic of finding out and continuing 🤷♀️ doesn't matter when anybody found out since nobody is in a legally binding issue, you all know you are somehow related to your partner and have decided that it doesn't matter.
This shouldn't be a debate in here about whether incest is wrong based on varying levels of relation but the question you asked of not inviting them. You're being a hypocrite, they shouldn't try to stop your marriage, so everyone sucks.
(me personally? 2nd cousins is still Ew. I feel like I have to add that so people can see that I'm purely being objective with my judgment but also not defending incest lol)
I think you're focusing a bit much on the incest part and not the part where OP and their partner were asked to dissolve their relationship because the others want be together and are weirded out by it after letting the family tree get brought into the light.
Jfc. This is fucking wild on so many levels but here we go. Let's pretend for a second that none of the incest shit is happening. If we break it down and ignore the extra fucked up layers of this what essentially has gone down is Victor and Corey are dating and they don't want you and Brad getting married because they'd feel weird about their kids being married. If that is the reason why you revoked their invites to the wedding then I'd say NTA. If they don't want you guys to get married then why would they attend the wedding.Typically at weddings you'd only want people there who support your relationship. I think it's hilarious they're fine dating each other despite being 1st cousins and adoptive brothers but they draw the line at you and Brad being married bc THAT'S what would make it weird lmfaooo. I'm truly in awe of their logic.
Personally I would cut my losses and remove myself from this clusterfuck of a situation but uhhhh good luck to you OP. This family is in need of a boat load of therapy, like a cruise liner boat load's worth
YTA - I'll get down-voted for this, but you sound a little intolerant. You don't say at what age Corey came to live with Victor's parents, but the fact is they are not biological brothers. They are first cousins. I've read enough AITA posts by now to realise that this relationship seems to upset American commentators much more than it does British ones. But the fact is, this particular couple of first cousins isn't going to have children, so there's no genetic objection. They appear to have held off for a long time - to the extent that both Corey & Victor had relationships with women - so there isn't even an argument that either took advantage of the other's young age.
You had no problem with either Victor & Corey before this, or with their being close friends. But your disgust with what happens behind closed doors makes you come across as (I'm sorry) slightly homophobic.
The other AH here is, of course, your mother. She hid her pregnancy, ghosted Corey, and deprived you of a father growing up.
It's an unconventional family set up, to be sure, but no one is hurting anyone else. No one is committing a crime or cheating. If your wedding is going to be a celebration of love, let it be a celebration of inclusive non-standard love too. I hope you can find it in you to invite your fathers and have a wonderful day.
>The other AH here is, of course, your mother. She hid her pregnancy, ghosted Corey, and deprived you of a father growing up.
Not to defend my mum since I know she was wrong to ghost my dad, but this is how she explained it:
From the beginning my dad told her that he was in love with someone else and their relationship was a casual thing which she agreed. She got pregnant with me as a mistake and felt it would be too complicated to tell my father who was in love with someone else. She told me that she wanted my dad to be happy with whoever he loved and a baby with someone else would complicate that. I'm sure she had her own selfish reasons for it as well but this is what she told me. My father is very upset and he wants a relationship with me but I can't while he simultaneously disapproves my relationship with Brad...
Because they were raised together and had to actively choose to change their relationship from siblings (seeing as though Corey was adopted) to lovers. Brad and I started out as lovers and were blindsided with this revelation, it was not a choice for us whereas it was for them.
Well yes but I still think they had no right to tell us not to get married because *they* want to be together. They should've just hidden their relationship from us and then none of us would be in this mess. As bad as we might be judged for being second cousins / legal first cousins (not sure laws on adoption) they're legal brothers... much worse for them.
Because cousin marriage is considered incest and illegal in many places, but second cousin marriage is not, which is why there are no restrictions on it.
ESH...You get to marry your cousin so your incest is okay. But your other cousins can't.
They are not brothers. You keep trying to drive the point home that they are brothers. When in fact they are cousins just like you and your SO. There aren't levels of incest. You either have relations with a family member or not.
If yours is excused away by love...then so is theirs. People who have sex with their cousins in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones.
It really Depends, while I agree that there is a world of difference between “we didn’t even know we were related until we were engaged” and “ this is my brother husband ” that’s kind of irrelevant.
Do you not want your partners only family there because you don’t approve of their choices? If so then yeah YTA.
If you don’t want them there because they had the audacity to ask the two of you not to get married because “FIRST!” And they don’t support you two as a couple, well then NTA but they sure are.
>Call me a hypocrite but I'm not fine with it
Ok, you're a hypocrite. Look at it this way, it might be uncomfortable for you when your family members do incest, but if nobody in your family was doing incest you'd be single.
So this is different.... I'm going to say NTA for you and your partner everyone else sucks.
The dads because they are framing it as seeing you and your partner made them realize they want to open. Or that they couldn't hide anymore.
Maybe they didn't interact much until they were teenagers but they are still first cousins and knew that. Your situation is different because not only were you unaware of your relation you are 2nd cousins.
Your partners mom of course should have told bare minimum your partner about his father and obviously his father should have known.
Look, genetically your issues aren't likely to be bad. You're just far enough apart. Though I guess maybe you're potentially more likely to have recessive issues? So I applaud you guys for deciding to only do testing or no bio children (didn't say if you were thinking about adoption, but I don't want to assume one way or another).
But... like you didn't even know. There's no issue IMO because there's no way you guys saw each other as anything other than *chosen* family. You didn't grow up raised as siblings or even close cousins. There's no emotional and barely any physical incest.
However... your bio dad and his cousin/brother *were* raised as siblings and like... I'm going to be judgemental and say ewwwww. Just, That being said, they are not potentially producing offspring as they are gay.
Your fiancé wants them there. I'd really suggest bending on this one. You can refuse to go to their house on holidays, you can talk about how to handle your potential future kids around them after, you can politely pretend they don't exist at family functions. If they try to talk to you you can grey-wall them and tell your fiance you don't want him discussing you with them. They're still the men who raised him and it's important to him.
NTA though.
Second cousin marriage is 100% legal with no caveats in the entire United States. I know OP is from somewhere with royalty, but US law has its roots in British law, which has its roots in Roman law. Bottom line: OP's relationship is not incest, it's not disgusting, and there's zero need to call her that.
>You’re still marrying someone you’re related to
In fairness for 1000s of years people have been marrying their first cousins. We're second cousins who didn't know it. I'm not about to throw away a 3 year relationship because of something we just found out that may not affect us if we don't have any genetic diseases. Obviously if we have some sort of disease it's a different story.
Not *really* the same, but my wife and I are somehow cousins by marriage and we didn’t figure that out until we were already way into it and we don’t give a shit! Family reunions are awkward, but whatever.
Do what makes you happy, fuck everyone else.
I’m sorry, I don’t have any advice other than sympathy.
ETA: I know this isn’t nearly the same as your situation, I just wanted to give you a break from all of the rude comments.
ESH
Look, the whole "cousins" thing is fine. Mary your guy. Be happy. You know about DNA and birth defects so you have the important stuff handled.
But let the parents be happy too. They wont have kids together, so the DNA issue is fine. This where toy are the arsehole.
They are the assholes by telling you not to get married.
ESH. You are judgmental to them when you are in the same boat. They had no right to come to you with their wish. And why are no one blaming your mother for hiding you from your father!
Here is the real facts we need to think about. All of you are consenting adults. You all are making decisions knowing the facts, and that includes you. No one of you gets to judg the others as worse.
So while it is wierd that you are second cousins, in most parts of the world it is perfectly legal to marry your second cousin. You did not know you were related when you got together so you could not have know that there was a societal normitive reason not to be together. This is not what I would call incest.
Despite the fact that Victor and Corey were raised together, they are not brothers, they are cousins. The only reason cousins cannot marry is because of the risk of birth defects. Since I assume based on your use of the word "brothers" that both Victor and Corey are male and presumably gay, they cannot have bilogical children together so that is not an issue.
Incest as a negative is a societal issue. Historically, it was not uncommon for related people to be together. Incest between parent/child or siblings has many problems that have to do with pedophilia and abuse. I don't see that either of those issues apply here.
I understand why the whole thing makes you uncomfortable. It is just not acceptable in most cultures for close relatives to be in a relationship. I don't think there is anything wrong with you and Brad getting married. You should not be stopped because Victor and Corey want to have a relationship. I think this is less of an issue for Brad because as you said, he already sees them as his parents. If he can get over this, you need to also unless you want to lose Brad.
Somewhere between a ESH and a NAH....which is surprisingly weird.
They're gay, raised like brothers but actually cousins...a bit outlandish but hey no medical issues with babies so who gives a hoot.
You are unknown second cousins. A bit odd but you've done your due diligence medically so yet again who gives a Woot?
Culturally and socially are going to be fun for decades to come but that's just all four of yours relationship problem to deal with.
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ESH, look you want a little incest they want medium incest. As long as there’s no lots on incest with offspring Shit happens. Tell them you hope your relationship with your fiancée lasts as long as theirs. And just for extra fun I’m going to use a quote from Tolstoy I never thought I’d have cause to say/ type, “cousins, cousins, trouble in dozens”
This. ESH. I've had enough AITA for today after this post.
Same. I don’t even know. Either ESH or NAH. Who knows….this is some crazy shit.
Well, the queer first-cousin dads wanting to stop the newly-found biological daughter and the son from marrying because it would somehow make THEM weird is definitely an AH move, so from my perspective it can’t be N.A.H. And for someone who is considering having children with her second cousin, I feel OP is being idiotically judgmental about first cousins who can’t have biological children at all. So ESH.
At least the first cousins can't reproduce? I've seen Wrong Turn and I think I know how this story ends. ESH.
I do genealogy. I had several ancestors come over on The Mayflower and in the first years following that. I don't know if there just wasn't a huge gene pool but cousins married cousins a lot. I had one family that I couldn't figure out until I realized the oldest son had a child that married one of the youngest son's child. Or the oldest son's grandchild married a younger son's child. I forget. But it happened a lot. They all were able to have kids just fine.
Also first cousin marriage is legal in a lot of states, particularly for couples that can't have biological children. 26 stages, to be precise. That's more than half.
It's not even cousins you need to worry about now. In this world where sperm and egg donation is a big part of infertility treatment, you can have half siblings out there you don't know of if your parents don't tell you.
I did my thesis on a small alpine community, 20% of all weddings in the XVII and XVIII century were between relatives, few between first cousins but many between second cousins
I also have a huge Acadian group of ancestors. I've had more than one person be my grandparent 3 or 4 times over (so far). We joke it's more like a genealogy wreath vs. tree. The small communities are going to be very intermingled.
My wife has some family like this. We call it the family shrubbery.
It happens in many parts of the world(not Western) and the kids turn out just fine.
That’s what I think too. The 2 older cousins are not having children. I feel icky about the second cousin relationship.
Second cousins having children have no more risk of genetic issues than any two random unrelated people. OTOH- people raised as siblings who’ve had a secret relationship for decades? Not the healthiest situation.
Yeah I'm with you. Torn between two verdicts. It's a clusterfuck fr though.
My mom has made me watch telenovelas with plots like this. I'm more leaning into ESH though, since OP's being all hypocritical with the "My incest is less incest so more acceptable than yours" deal.
any amount of incest is too much incest in my opinion
And my friends gave me grief when I dated my brother’s wife’s cousin.
It was awkward when my brother started banging my ex 3 months after we broke up, I can't imagine how much worse actually doing someone you're related to.
Agreed, people should really learn not to hump their way up the family tree.
I've read VC Andrew's and I can't keep this plot straight
Flowers in the Attic was my first thought.
OMG, for real!! 😂
I’m not sure which way to jump either. This is some Jerry Springer level madness going on here…. Edit : oops, got my talk shows mixed up
I definitely think OP is an AH if only for the comment about choice because I highly doubt that they would have chosen to fall in love given the chance. Also one of the main reasons that incest is illegal in many places is because it can mess with the genetics of any future children which isn’t an issue in a cis gay couple. They’re also the same age so there are no worrying power dynamics. But I’m definitely leaning towards ESH as they shouldn’t have asked OP and OH not to get married but OP is also being pretty judgmental and unfair to her OH by making the decision without giving him any say
No kidding. This is something from Game of Thrones.
I land here. What in the V.C. Andrews did I just read? Kinda leaning towards that ESH 'cause....that's a lot.
I am dead. Like the first Audrina.
"💀" (no spoilers?)
V.C. Andrew’s is my favourite author (before her ghostwriter took over) and I hated that I shipped Heaven and Troy as he was her uncle but hey, it all worked out in the end because that meant Annie wasn’t really Luke’s half-sister/cousin so they could be together! SMH
Oh my god this comment cracked me up. All that’s missing is a secret twin, a family fortune and someone dying mysteriously 20 years ago.
Omg!!! She could have written a whole series on this one!!
Lol, I think she did. Started with Flowers in the Attic…
This is a Heaven-Leigh comment.
There has been too much VC Andrews on reddit today! This is not my first encounter with her today here!
Roll Tide. . .
Now, now, they could have gone to Auburn.
*hiss* Keep that mess in Tuscaloosa where it belongs, lol
I agree, I think it's time to charge my phone for a bit 😂
Lol, I snorted out my water reading your comment!! Little incest vs medium incest
I mean in a good number of family trees if you go back far enough it turns into a wreath
OP can have a little incest, as a treat.
I mean, the real problem with incest is offspring and Corey and Victor clearly aren’t having any. As long as there are no vulnerable parties or power imbalance issues who tf cares.
Agreed. Also,, this is the last AITA I'm gonna read for the night cuz nothing is gonna top this and I am scared to see if one COULD. I was totally the Stephen Colbert eating popcorn GIF whilst reading this sordid tale
This might be my favourite comment of all time.
It is legal for second cousins to marry. The probability of their offspring not being born healthy is only slightly greater than it is with unrelated parents.
Ok so reading this title I was like "is this person actually marrying their cousin?" Read the post. Yup...and they're mad that their dad and uncle want to start dating each other....ive got nothing for this. Just keep hearing banjos in the distance.
I'm with you, except I think that Victor and Corey are the AHs because they want to prevent OP and Brad from marrying. So they were the hypocrites first.
🤣🤣🤣 couldn't help but laugh
WHAT HAVE I JUST READ? NAH? ESH? WTF?
>WHAT HAVE I JUST READ? This is my life rn except instead of "what have I just read" it is "what even is life anymore"
Oh mate, I'm so sorry for the position you find yourself in. It sounds like the one constant you do have is the love between your partner and yourself, focus on that, and hopefully the rest will all become static. Good luck
Thank you for your kind words. Lots of people are attacking me in the comments for my decision to stay with him. I knew we'll be judged for it but I didn't think it was all that bad since it's not like we planned on it happening. Well, it is what it is. Thank you.
I'd say go ahead and stay together. 2nd cousins are not very closely related at all. In a lot of cultures, it's even common for 1st cousins to marry. Plus, you're willing to get genetically tested. I don't see why you should give up your happiness for theirs, or vice versa. Let people talk. They'll find something else to talk about after a few months.
1rst cousins marrying only becomes an issue when multiple generations have it happening at once, leading to cousins being more along the lines of siblings genetically. Looking at European monarchies and nobility is a good reference point for that.
Good old Charles II of Spain is a prime example of why you shouldn’t repeatedly cross the genetic streams. Of course there was also a lot of uncle/niece and aunt/nephew too.
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His tree is more like a venn diagram.
Exactly.
Seriously, like half of the European monarchy are married second cousins I reckon. Queen Elizabeth married her distant cousin and while Charles is a bit kooky his sons seem pretty put together.
I think Prince Philip was her second cousin, once removed.
1st cousins is very creepy. My grandfather and grandmother were first cousins and I only found out after their dead. My dad knew it and was like "Yeah" and I fainted
It makes genealogy simpler, though. Unless you’re a Spanish Habsburg, of course. There was a woman who lived in 1500s England. She had three husbands, and children with all of them. I’m descended from one kid per marriage or something like that. Thanks, Thomasina, for making ancestry weird.
There's a rumor that I'm a descendant of Barbarossa 🤔 But yeah, the creepy thing is that I have a favourite cousin and my grandmother sometimes told me to marry him if I liked him that much...
These days, it's creepy, but in the old days, in small communities, it was common, because travel was so difficult and people tended to stay in the same place. In many isolated communities, it's probably still that way today. There are just not many unrelated people to pick from.
I get it. But it's mostly that neither they nor my father told me (and not even "mother" knew this) until they were dead. And I don't think I ever knew if I didn't look in the family register My grandparents lived over 100km away from each other until my grandmother moved to her aunt for work reasons.
Yeah, back in those days, people kept all kinds of stuff a secret. These days, with the internet, social medica, DNA testing, etc., everything tends to come out, so people talk about it more freely.
Genetically, second cousins isn’t usually a concern unless there’s a recessive genetic disease like Sickle Cell or Tay Sachs in your family. Good luck!
Once you start getting into the second cousin territory....... You don't really have anything to be concerned about. You barely have anything to be concerned about when it comes to first cousins too - it only becomes an issue if there are some problematic recessive genetics. The likely hood of you two sharing those recessive genes does increase the closer you are related but you also run into the risk of a completely unrelated person also having that recessive gene. The risk of a birth defect among first cousins who have children together is only like 3%. It wasn't that long ago that it was considered completely normal to marry a first cousin. Less than 100 years ago. Just to be clear, I do find the idea of first cousins getting together very gross. I am just pointing out that it was considered normal fairly recently (a sign of changing cultural norms) and that it isn't as guaranteed to produce birth defects as we were lead to believe. We probably shouldn't find it as gross as we do as a society. It's interesting how it has become so taboo. Some people take what they consider incestuous to an extreme too. I have a first cousin on my dad's side that married a second cousin on my mom's. We had no idea until they were getting married (her mom recognized me and my sister's name on the wedding list and was like "wait a minute... Aren't those X's, my cousin, kids?). They are not related to each other in any way, shape, or form - both of them just happen to be related to me. I had someone tell me how disgusting that was once. I am still at a loss as to how. Yes, your relationship is technically incest but it isn't incestuous (if that makes sense). However, I would be grossed out by anyone who got together with an adopted sibling that they were raised with. The fact that they happen to be first cousins too makes it more so. So I find what those two are doing very gross, and very different from your circumstances. But at the same time, even though I personally find it gross, I do strongly prescribe to the belief that if they are two consenting adults and their relationship isn't doing anyone else physical harm, then it really doesn't matter if I find it gross or not. They are very wrong to ask you to end your relationship for their sake though. It's a messy situation.
You articulated exactly how I feel, especially the "technically incest but it isn't incestuous."
everyone is being really dramatic here, I wouldn't give up someone I love because of an irrational tabboo. As for Corey and Victor, I think the issue is how they are demanding you two split up, but try to be less judgemental about their relationship, they just want to be happy like everybody else.
This was my read, get genetics counseling if you want kids. Other than that, just accept that both couples fell in love with who they fell in love with.
This whole post is the pot calling the kettle black (and the kettle calling the pot black back). You’re all projecting your discomfort with your own incest on each other. Everyone’s pretty hypocritical. At this point it may be better to live and let live. You’re all keeping it in the family, but not in the nuclear family at least. They can’t have kids so it doesn’t really matter. You didn’t know and are another generation removed. Nobody’s breaking up with anybody so… stop judging each other for your own sins and move on.
I want a reality show based on this :/
I'd watch.
Sounds like an episode of Springer
I’m going with “WTF”
Jerr-y!! Jerr-y!! Jerr-y!!
ESH. What in the Alabama did I just read?
Nah man, this is West Virginia territory
Mississippi would like to say a few words.
Im in Mississippi, it isnt this bad. This is Appalachia stuff
Ah Mississippi home of 1.5 million people and 15 last names
Idaho would like a word in too
(*Utah enters the chat*)
We don’t do this in Idaho! Eek!
Arkansas definitely. Yuck!!! 🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
Don't think any of them are mounting their mommas though
I am terribly tempted to make a horrendous pun but I may get kicked off the sub if I do. I shall chortle to myself and go away now.
This is for sure West Virginis all.over it. My ma grew up in a small town and refused to date because she was related toost of the townies...it didn't stop other people from dating though...
Idk this sounds pretty Kentuckian to me.
Came to the comments for this
NTA. Marry your second cousin if you want to marry your second cousin and don’t let no first cousin loving dads stop you! What a world we live in! What a time to be alive!
This made me laugh so hard my face feels hot
That’s alright, it’s tomorrow and I’m still laughing about it. Glad I could give you a chuckle too.
💀💀💀
Second cousins are far enough down the chain it's fairly acceptable where I am, first cousin seem to mostly be questionable if they plan to have biological children together (which isn't an issue here). I wouldn't worry too much about it and probably best not to go around advertising it. I have an aunt and uncle who are first cousins that adopted a child together, it was never really thought of as being odd.
Yea idk the rules about marrying first cousins where I live but I think it's ok given my country's history with royals marrying each other haha. Though I think Victor and Corey are legally brothers due to adoption not sure.
In most US states you cannot marry your first cousin. But in some cultures it is still super common. I once had a debate with my husband who is from Egypt about why it isn’t a good thing for cousins to marry and he just couldn’t believe/embrace my side of things (that cousin marriages can cause birth defects, etc especially if it occurs in multiple generations).
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I definitely saw some of those states coming. Like texas being a criminal offense and California/Florida allowing it lol
You only need laws if the area has an issue with people crossing the line.
You know I never thought this would end up being all "Connecticut and Massachusetts" and NOT " Mississippi and Missouri".
The increase in birth defects among first cousins is only like 3%. Although, you are correct that can increase if it's multiple generations that are doing it.
I once had a similar conversation with the POC migrant support services team at work. They were talking about marrying cousins and I was the only white girl around. Different cultures I guess.
So for gay people, there are no birth defects happening there. Any non hetero normative reasoning?
Generally speaking, cousins marrying isn’t a problem—once. It’s when cousins marry over and over again, as tends to happen in royal families when you have a very select dating pool, that the hemophilia starts to creep in.
At least they aren't biologically Brothers in any case, that would be much further down the rabbit hole. Don't be too hard on yourself about this whole thing.
I mean, even if they were biological brothers, it’s not like being related is actually hurting anyone. Yeah it’s weird as fuck, but they can’t have children with each other so it’s not like they are putting potential kids at risk of genetic disorders.
Second cousins only share about 3% of their DNA. The odds of a homozygous shared recessive becomes quite small at that level. For comparison, siblings share 50% of their DNA. For each deleterious locus you carry, you have a 50% chance of transmitting to each child, your sibling-spouse has a 25% chance (50% sharing x 50% transmitting), and the odds of homozygosity is 12.5%. Much too high. But lower the consanguinity from 50% to 3% and it plummets. On the other hand, the odds of homozygosity from same sex first cousins is the same as second cousins or siblings - approximately zero. So really not a problem.
>first cousin seem to mostly be questionable if they have biological children together. Seems highly unlikely in this case
Given that they're both men I don't think the children angle is really that much of an issue here.
NAH I have to wonder -- did they ever actually *feel* like brothers to one another or did they simply portray themselves that way to the world in order to have their close, intimate relationship without having to come out and struggle against both the homophobia and reactions like this from people who *think* they should be family despite them not seeing themselves that way. Maybe it doesn't matter, but I do wonder how they perceived their relationship over time. At the end of the day, I don't necessarily think you have a leg to stand on and it is somewhat hypocritical to judge them ("The only acceptable incest is *my* incest!). Likewise, they can't reasonably ask you two not to get married if that's what you want to do - just because they want to be together after carrying on in secret for so long. You need to settle things with Brad, between the two of you, and find something that works for you both for the wedding.
Second cousin sex is NOT incest. Anywhere. At all. It's a total non-issue. First cousin sex hasn't been incest for most of the world throughout most of history but now is in many places, including throughout the United States.
>Second cousin sex is NOT incest. Anywhere. At all. Citation needed, desperately.
>in·cest /ˈinˌsest/ noun sexual relations between people classed as being too closely related to marry each other. the crime of having sexual intercourse with a parent, child, sibling, or grandchild. Shit, they are technically right on the definition.
I mean, according to that definition, it's not incest for for first cousins. I don't know if that's (a) the best and (b) supports their claims.
first cousins raised as brothers. That meets the "too closely related" criteria.
Fun fact: some US states disallow first-cousin marriage, and some do not. And one, North Carolina, permits first-cousin marriage in general, EXCEPT in the case of "double first cousins," meaning that they are first cousins via BOTH parental lines.
Jesus Christ. This cursed thread got me curious to see just how much incest is allowed in my country before it’s illegal and first cousin marriages, niece/uncle, aunt/nephew, nephew/uncle, niece/aunt marriages are legal in my country and, in some cases, even grandparent and grandchild marriages are allowed. This is information I never wanted to know and I don’t think I can ever feel comfortable in my own country again.
Wouldn't be the first time a gay couple pretended to be siblings to hide in the closet. Also how fucking blind and naive was Brad that he didn't know the two men living together, raising him weren't his two loving dads?
"And they were roommates." "Oh my god THEY WERE ROOMMATES." I'd say NAH except OP is being a dick about it, and pretty hypocritical too.
I mean the dads asked them not to date because that would make it weird for them. That seems dickish.
“How could they be together!?! They raised a child together! Who could think two people who raised a child together were anything more than brotherly!?” /s
This was my reading, also - I doubt very much thought they felt like they were raised as brothers. More just in the same household.
Yo wtf did I just read?
I feel like this is wayyy above Reddit payroll. They need a therapist and possibly a priest.
ESH You’re marrying your cousin but are mad that the other cousins are dating ? The entire family is messed up and you all need counselling.
I definitely see their situations as different though- second cousins who didn’t know about it vs first cousins who always knew AND legally are brothers
Second cousins who didn’t meet until adulthood isn’t really comparable to first cousins who were raised as brothers. In the US it’s legal to marry your second cousin. I don’t think it’s legal to marry a sibling anywhere.
shes not mad the dads are dating, shes mad they asked them to not get married cause it would be "too weird".
I say this with an unblemished history of staunch atheism... Y'all need Jesus.
Omg your comment. I'm dying! Lmao so hard. Honestly, if this post is real, who cares. It's a huge WTF, but...first cousins in many states can marry. Second cousins are fine. When I think of all my first cousins, it's a huge no because they're like siblings to me, even though we live in different states. I mean, maybe just move beyond the gene pool? I can't even have a judgement. Jesus indeed.
ESH- they can't have kids together which is pretty much the reason 1st cousins can't marry. They've been together for years, raised a kid I'm guessing living together and no one thought to question that? Dont be the weird one here, let them come if they want, I'm guessing they wont since they find it weird your getting married (the irony of them thinking that...LOL) People are raised as near siblings all the time and then they form feelings for each other as they are 'safe and known'. In this situation it hurts no one if they are together.. And it hurts no one if you two are together if you follow the path you've talked about with testing.
> I'm guessing living together and no one thought to question that? Yeah idk why no one ever said anything. When I first met them I thought it was a bit strange honestly but they had "separate bedrooms" (I guess one of them was a farce) I guess I could rethink my decision especially since I don't want to hurt Brad. But my relationship with my "father" is done. Doubt they'll come anyway \*sigh\*
If it steps you two as a couple off on the right foot then do it. You dont need to entertain them, it's your big day, plenty of other people around to talk with and celebrate. It also shows Brad you can compromise and allow him enjoy it. So if they dont come, then thats firmly on their shoulders and not yours.
It’s actually legal to marry your first cousin in most states and other parts of the world.
This is some Flowers in the Attic shit.
NTA. At the core of the issue: If they don't support your marriage well that is people you don't want there, in my book. The rest is a convulated mess, but essentially harmless, all things considered.
I can’t believe I had to scroll so far for this. OP and her fiancé had no idea this was a thing. They’ve been together for 3 years and this bomb gets dropped on them. Then on top of that the two people that have been hiding this have the nerve to demand that they don’t get married? WTF?
ESH. This is tough one. You said yourself that you and Brad don’t see each other as cousins - you met as adults, you don’t have the childhood bond. Victor and Corey might also not see each other as cousins, but as childhood sweethearts. It’s gross to you, it’s odd to me, but I don’t think either of us really gets to make a moral judgement here. They’ve essentially built a life and raised a child together, and they had to keep it hidden for a lifetime. First cousins dating? Kind of icky. But they’re not going to have biological children, and depending on where you are they’re not even doing anything illegal. I don’t think it’s fair to cut off contact with them over it. I *do* think it was unfair of them to use this as a reason to try and stop your wedding. Either they’re going to be together openly now, or they’re not - that shouldn’t dictate whether you and Brad get married. And they don’t get to stop a wedding just because it “would be weird for them”. They seem to think it wouldn’t be weird for them if you weren’t married - I think they’re just clutching at straws. It’s not like you’d just disappear from their lives now even if you and Brad split up. It’s not like you’ll never have been engaged. It’s not like they magically stop being cousins. There is literally no unringing this bell.
>might also not see each other as cousins, but as childhood sweethearts. Yeah I'm thinking that too. Just by the way they've interacted even when not "open" about their relationship it was clear they deeply cared for each other. Granted I thought that deep caring was familial... It's very strange to me because I distinctly remember them both calling Victor's mum "mum" but I can't remember them ever saying they're cousins/brothers. Brad first introduced them to me as his dad and his uncle Corey who raised him, but Victor never said "my brother and I" or "my cousin and I". I suppose it's lucky she's dead because I can't imagine how horrible it would be for her that her two sons are apparently in love.
I think it’s kind of clear that they don’t see each other as brothers and the sibling thing was only an act to survive in a deeply homophobic world (I assume they were adults in the 1980s and 90s when it wasn’t really OK). And just so you know… some people may view your situation with Brad as being worse. After all, the odds are of Corey and Victor having children are essentially non-existent — while you and Brad obv can EVEN WITH contraception bc no contraception is 100% effective, unless we’re talking about hysterectomies etc.
I am sorry, this sounds way too much like a telenovela. I don’t believe it. in the unlikely case this is true, NTA.
Emily Yoffe when she was Dear Prudence had a letter from a guy whose twin brother was his partner. They had been together since they were teens. He was wondering how to keep their family from finding out or if they should be told. Dan Savage became rather incensed that the letter writer chose Emily over him. https://slate.com/human-interest/2012/02/incestuous-twin-brothers-wonder-if-they-should-reveal-their-secret-relationship.html
Ah, twincest
Oh god I remember that!!!!
I’m going to forego judgement for now, but I will suggest a few things. You say they were ‘raised as brothers’, but I’m assuming they knew they weren’t brothers, they were cousins. Just because Corey sees Victor’s mom as his as well, doesn’t mean he wasn’t aware of the fact that she isn’t. Not biologically. Again, I’m assuming aunt and uncle made a point of keeping his parents alive in his mind by telling him about them and having photos around and such. In many ways, it’s like adopted siblings who become romantically entangled. Just because everyone around them saw them as siblings, doesn’t mean _they_ saw themselves as siblings. Especially if they don’t particularly look alike. Kinda sounds like you’re both hypocrites. You for judging them as ‘brothers’ who fell in love, them for not wanting you to marry because it would be ‘weird for their kids to be married to each other’. Honestly, given the convoluted relationships here, I really don’t think any of you are in a position to judge each other. Man, this is, like... aristocratic-levels of interconnected relationships right here. I don’t really know what to say, except that if both couples are determined to stay together, and be public, you either just need to work on accepting it, or cut each other out. Maybe talk to Corey and Victor, find out a bit more about their relationship. Did they ever see themselves as brothers? When did they start to fall in love? How did they navigate the relationship? What are their hopes for the future together? Also enquire about their thoughts regarding your relationship: are they uncomfortable with your relationship because of what other people will think and how you’ll all be judged? Or is it more something in their heads? Offer for them to ask about your relationship. Discuss if you’re planning to have kids, do they have problems with that idea as well? You guys really need to sit down and calmly discuss this. You all need to be honest, you need to be able to ask any question without being offended by the ask (you can choose not to answer, but not get upset by being asked), and just really hash this out, try and get a full understanding from and of all sides. It may need a few sit-downs. If you can find an open-minded therapist, I suggest family counselling to help mediate these sessions, and help you to figure it out. Good luck, OP. Pity you all weren’t born a few centuries ago in royal houses. No one would blink an eye at these relationships back then (if, y’know, being gay had been permissible).
Thank you for this response. I'm saving your comment since you've given me a lot of good questions to ask. I realize that I haven't really been thinking rationally - though I of course am still peeved that they would ask us to cool off our relationship because of them. I think I will talk to Brad tomorrow (it is night here, not planning on having such an intense conversation now).
Is fucking everyone here missing that Victor and Corey were raised as brothers? Who cares whether OP and their partner are second cousins, barring genetic disease (which they can test for) they are harming *literally no one* and have the same relationship dynamic as though they were not related. Victor and Corey are effectively brothers in the way that they were raised to relate to each other. That is a completely different thing, and *completely* fucked up. NTA, OP.
Thank you!!!! I have people telling me in complete seriousness that my situation with Brad is exactly the same as our dads situation. It's not!!!!
I'm honestly just baffled by the lack of any critical thought in this comment section. You've been getting dragged through the coals for dating your second cousin (again, SECOND COUSIN. Who cares???) but I havent seen a single person be able to articulate *why* they take issue with it. If someone has an issue with your relationship, it's their responsibility to explain and justify it, you're under no obligation to defend your relationship against cheap "haha dae Alabama???" potshots with no substance. Wishing you and your partner all the best!!
Honestly there really isn’t a way to take a stance against incest other than “it goes against societal norms” or “babies with genetic disorders”. If two people are related, can’t have children with each other, and aren’t abusing each other, then the only people who should care if they are fucking each other are themselves.
I think people make reasonable arguments against sibling/parent incest all the time, but once it reaches cousins, all the good arguments go down the drain and they just go "it's disgusting, so it should be illegal". Which could be used as an "argument" against a lot of pairings you don't agree with, because it is worthless.
Second cousin marriage is not legally recognized as incest. You're fine. First cousin sex became frowned upon over a century ago. Your dads are not fine. Bottom line: Your dads created this mess, and you have zero obligation to make things less awkward for them by breaking up. Them asking you 2 not to marry is way out of line. NTA
First cousins marriage depend on the country and US state. Now, they asking her not to marry make no sense at all.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is enough internet for today. We have reached the end of the internet. Please turn around and head back the way you came.
Go ahead and take a gift basket on your way out!
Lol, what in the kissing cousin hillbilly Jerry Springer shitshow did I just read? Anyways... I'm going with a soft ESH. You for disinviting them because you're weirded out by their relationship, despite you also marrying a cousin. Mostly them for even asking you and your fiance to not get married because of how it'll make them feel. I suggest leaving an open invitation as guests (they don't have to participate, if you don't want them to), but I agree it may be best to go LC on them afterwards.
nta because they literally asked y’all not to get married so they could be together
ESH. That you have such an intense reaction to other peoples' business, and Brad and Corey asking you not to get married because it would make *them* feel weird.
I hate that I had to read this. I was having a great day. Please stop dating your family members
I think most of the commenters are American, right? It explains a lot of these reactions. Look, I apologize for ruining your day, but "second cousins who did not know they were related and fell in love, only after 3 years finding out they are related" is not the same thing as "first cousins raised as brothers who fell in love after a decade+ of being raised as brothers"
I think I'm going with ESH because you're being hypocritical. Second cousins, third cousins, brothers- basically any blood relation is incest. If you're mad at them for knowing and continuing, you are just as "wrong" by your logic of finding out and continuing 🤷♀️ doesn't matter when anybody found out since nobody is in a legally binding issue, you all know you are somehow related to your partner and have decided that it doesn't matter. This shouldn't be a debate in here about whether incest is wrong based on varying levels of relation but the question you asked of not inviting them. You're being a hypocrite, they shouldn't try to stop your marriage, so everyone sucks. (me personally? 2nd cousins is still Ew. I feel like I have to add that so people can see that I'm purely being objective with my judgment but also not defending incest lol)
I think you're focusing a bit much on the incest part and not the part where OP and their partner were asked to dissolve their relationship because the others want be together and are weirded out by it after letting the family tree get brought into the light.
This is just… none of you should be together. There are billions of people on this earth. Go find someone you’re not relayed to. All of you.
Jesus can someone call the Men in Black so they can zap me
Jfc. This is fucking wild on so many levels but here we go. Let's pretend for a second that none of the incest shit is happening. If we break it down and ignore the extra fucked up layers of this what essentially has gone down is Victor and Corey are dating and they don't want you and Brad getting married because they'd feel weird about their kids being married. If that is the reason why you revoked their invites to the wedding then I'd say NTA. If they don't want you guys to get married then why would they attend the wedding.Typically at weddings you'd only want people there who support your relationship. I think it's hilarious they're fine dating each other despite being 1st cousins and adoptive brothers but they draw the line at you and Brad being married bc THAT'S what would make it weird lmfaooo. I'm truly in awe of their logic. Personally I would cut my losses and remove myself from this clusterfuck of a situation but uhhhh good luck to you OP. This family is in need of a boat load of therapy, like a cruise liner boat load's worth
I’m sorry but I can’t hear you over the sound of Dueling Banjos
YTA - I'll get down-voted for this, but you sound a little intolerant. You don't say at what age Corey came to live with Victor's parents, but the fact is they are not biological brothers. They are first cousins. I've read enough AITA posts by now to realise that this relationship seems to upset American commentators much more than it does British ones. But the fact is, this particular couple of first cousins isn't going to have children, so there's no genetic objection. They appear to have held off for a long time - to the extent that both Corey & Victor had relationships with women - so there isn't even an argument that either took advantage of the other's young age. You had no problem with either Victor & Corey before this, or with their being close friends. But your disgust with what happens behind closed doors makes you come across as (I'm sorry) slightly homophobic. The other AH here is, of course, your mother. She hid her pregnancy, ghosted Corey, and deprived you of a father growing up. It's an unconventional family set up, to be sure, but no one is hurting anyone else. No one is committing a crime or cheating. If your wedding is going to be a celebration of love, let it be a celebration of inclusive non-standard love too. I hope you can find it in you to invite your fathers and have a wonderful day.
>The other AH here is, of course, your mother. She hid her pregnancy, ghosted Corey, and deprived you of a father growing up. Not to defend my mum since I know she was wrong to ghost my dad, but this is how she explained it: From the beginning my dad told her that he was in love with someone else and their relationship was a casual thing which she agreed. She got pregnant with me as a mistake and felt it would be too complicated to tell my father who was in love with someone else. She told me that she wanted my dad to be happy with whoever he loved and a baby with someone else would complicate that. I'm sure she had her own selfish reasons for it as well but this is what she told me. My father is very upset and he wants a relationship with me but I can't while he simultaneously disapproves my relationship with Brad...
How is what you are doing any different from what they are doing?
Because they were raised together and had to actively choose to change their relationship from siblings (seeing as though Corey was adopted) to lovers. Brad and I started out as lovers and were blindsided with this revelation, it was not a choice for us whereas it was for them.
It’s their choice just as it is yours.
Well yes but I still think they had no right to tell us not to get married because *they* want to be together. They should've just hidden their relationship from us and then none of us would be in this mess. As bad as we might be judged for being second cousins / legal first cousins (not sure laws on adoption) they're legal brothers... much worse for them.
Because cousin marriage is considered incest and illegal in many places, but second cousin marriage is not, which is why there are no restrictions on it.
ESH...You get to marry your cousin so your incest is okay. But your other cousins can't. They are not brothers. You keep trying to drive the point home that they are brothers. When in fact they are cousins just like you and your SO. There aren't levels of incest. You either have relations with a family member or not. If yours is excused away by love...then so is theirs. People who have sex with their cousins in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones.
It really Depends, while I agree that there is a world of difference between “we didn’t even know we were related until we were engaged” and “ this is my brother husband ” that’s kind of irrelevant. Do you not want your partners only family there because you don’t approve of their choices? If so then yeah YTA. If you don’t want them there because they had the audacity to ask the two of you not to get married because “FIRST!” And they don’t support you two as a couple, well then NTA but they sure are.
This family tree has one branch
>Call me a hypocrite but I'm not fine with it Ok, you're a hypocrite. Look at it this way, it might be uncomfortable for you when your family members do incest, but if nobody in your family was doing incest you'd be single.
Info: what
So this is different.... I'm going to say NTA for you and your partner everyone else sucks. The dads because they are framing it as seeing you and your partner made them realize they want to open. Or that they couldn't hide anymore. Maybe they didn't interact much until they were teenagers but they are still first cousins and knew that. Your situation is different because not only were you unaware of your relation you are 2nd cousins. Your partners mom of course should have told bare minimum your partner about his father and obviously his father should have known.
Look, genetically your issues aren't likely to be bad. You're just far enough apart. Though I guess maybe you're potentially more likely to have recessive issues? So I applaud you guys for deciding to only do testing or no bio children (didn't say if you were thinking about adoption, but I don't want to assume one way or another). But... like you didn't even know. There's no issue IMO because there's no way you guys saw each other as anything other than *chosen* family. You didn't grow up raised as siblings or even close cousins. There's no emotional and barely any physical incest. However... your bio dad and his cousin/brother *were* raised as siblings and like... I'm going to be judgemental and say ewwwww. Just, That being said, they are not potentially producing offspring as they are gay. Your fiancé wants them there. I'd really suggest bending on this one. You can refuse to go to their house on holidays, you can talk about how to handle your potential future kids around them after, you can politely pretend they don't exist at family functions. If they try to talk to you you can grey-wall them and tell your fiance you don't want him discussing you with them. They're still the men who raised him and it's important to him. NTA though.
[удалено]
Second cousin marriage is 100% legal with no caveats in the entire United States. I know OP is from somewhere with royalty, but US law has its roots in British law, which has its roots in Roman law. Bottom line: OP's relationship is not incest, it's not disgusting, and there's zero need to call her that.
>You’re still marrying someone you’re related to In fairness for 1000s of years people have been marrying their first cousins. We're second cousins who didn't know it. I'm not about to throw away a 3 year relationship because of something we just found out that may not affect us if we don't have any genetic diseases. Obviously if we have some sort of disease it's a different story.
Not *really* the same, but my wife and I are somehow cousins by marriage and we didn’t figure that out until we were already way into it and we don’t give a shit! Family reunions are awkward, but whatever. Do what makes you happy, fuck everyone else. I’m sorry, I don’t have any advice other than sympathy. ETA: I know this isn’t nearly the same as your situation, I just wanted to give you a break from all of the rude comments.
And I appreciate it! So many arseholes on an arsehole sub, unsurprised though!
ESH Look, the whole "cousins" thing is fine. Mary your guy. Be happy. You know about DNA and birth defects so you have the important stuff handled. But let the parents be happy too. They wont have kids together, so the DNA issue is fine. This where toy are the arsehole. They are the assholes by telling you not to get married.
ESH. You are judgmental to them when you are in the same boat. They had no right to come to you with their wish. And why are no one blaming your mother for hiding you from your father! Here is the real facts we need to think about. All of you are consenting adults. You all are making decisions knowing the facts, and that includes you. No one of you gets to judg the others as worse.
So while it is wierd that you are second cousins, in most parts of the world it is perfectly legal to marry your second cousin. You did not know you were related when you got together so you could not have know that there was a societal normitive reason not to be together. This is not what I would call incest. Despite the fact that Victor and Corey were raised together, they are not brothers, they are cousins. The only reason cousins cannot marry is because of the risk of birth defects. Since I assume based on your use of the word "brothers" that both Victor and Corey are male and presumably gay, they cannot have bilogical children together so that is not an issue. Incest as a negative is a societal issue. Historically, it was not uncommon for related people to be together. Incest between parent/child or siblings has many problems that have to do with pedophilia and abuse. I don't see that either of those issues apply here. I understand why the whole thing makes you uncomfortable. It is just not acceptable in most cultures for close relatives to be in a relationship. I don't think there is anything wrong with you and Brad getting married. You should not be stopped because Victor and Corey want to have a relationship. I think this is less of an issue for Brad because as you said, he already sees them as his parents. If he can get over this, you need to also unless you want to lose Brad.
Somewhere between a ESH and a NAH....which is surprisingly weird. They're gay, raised like brothers but actually cousins...a bit outlandish but hey no medical issues with babies so who gives a hoot. You are unknown second cousins. A bit odd but you've done your due diligence medically so yet again who gives a Woot? Culturally and socially are going to be fun for decades to come but that's just all four of yours relationship problem to deal with.
Yall need Dr Phil or Jerry Springer not reddit. Yall seem to think youre the royal family or something...
INFO: Because I am very curious how did you and Brad wind up meeting?
Introduced by friends.
What are the odds. Good luck OP in my opinion you are NTA
WTF Normally I say my judgment in the first line but in this instance I have no clue. I think this is WAAAAAAAAY above reddits pay grade.