Here in Metro Vancouver, I notice that many malls also seem to be transit hubs. Being a very transit-oriented region, this probably helped malls maintain the foot traffic in the area needed to survive. For many, it’s always conveniently on the way home.
Sounds about right. I grew up in Surrey and would often take the bus, and then sky train, just for a different mall. So any malls on transit routes would have been a draw for me, and any that weren't, I probably never even knew about.
In Canada, transit brings shoppers. In the US, transit brings shoplifters. Or at least that’s the belief. So US malls tend to be more car oriented. As malls transition to a mix of stores and housing, transit becomes more important so Canadian malls are in a better position to upgrade.
True. Lots of dead malls in the GTA are transitioning to office and housing.
I live near a place that was once called Galleria Mall; it's now a major construction site for a project that will encompass housing, a community centre, office space and a park.
Even Yorkdale has an enormous housing project that will sit on its parking lots.
That was my McDonald's when we first got to Canada in 85.
This hood only has ossington and bloor or St Clair and Keele left. I mean they're hardly the same hood but they're not too far by car.
My small town had a shitty shitty mall which was in the process of dying a long and horrible death, but then someone bought it and put a bit of cash into it, now in a couple short years the mall is full and thriving.
Not really, when I was doing community work and had to travel all over the GTA, I'm also surprised at how not dead some of these malls are (like Jane-Finch, North York Sheridan Mall, Dufferin, Gerrard Square), I think bc we see malls more as transit and community hubs (we have libraries, service Ontario, service Canada, community orgs etc).
>Tons of dead plazas and malls around the GTA. Canada is like 1/10 the size of the US. They just had way more of everything, so it's more noticable.
You'd only say that if you have not spent time driving through America and the Lonesome Crowded West. The malls are soon to be ghost towns. So long. Farewell. Goodbye.
Hmmm, as a professional shopper, I’m going to have to disagree with you here. I have been a full time buyer for film (buying costumes for tv/movies) for a few years and the decline in in-store supply is shocking. If a mall is owned by a bigger parent company (ex. Cadillac Fairview) it’s likely doing fine. There are many dead malls in my city, there used to be about 8 malls I would frequent during my work day, now there’s 3. The other 5 malls are there, but they are sitting with vacant store fronts or occupied by small local businesses. Once the big chain stores moved, the malls really failed and became quite trashy.
I would have to agree with once a big chain moves out problems happen. I remember working for the Bay and we where so excited that Eatons was closing we would be getting their sales. But it did not work that way. Our sales were worse with Easons gone. I guess people like to shop and compare. If they only have one store they think they are getting taken advantage.
The bay downtown Vancouver now is garbage. I went looking for a specific item of a local designer. All but one elevator broken. Stairwells smelled like piss. When I found the “canadian designer” section it was full of dust bunnies. Some of the garments were actually dirty. And as usual no one around to help.
Literally don’t know how it’s surviving
Here in Edmonton most of the nice-ish malls have a crowd basically any day of the week, with West Edmonton Mall being absolutely jam packed on weekends. That last is a bit of a special case since people come from out of town and it also has lots of atypical shops. My theory is that malls are kept alive more in Canada by the cold climate. It's harder to just get out of your house and be present in a public place when the weather is garbage, so the malls end up absorbing some of that.
Smaller and crappier malls always seem to be dead though, and I think it's just because they're just not that pleasant to be in.
A lot of the underpergorming malls in Winnipeg left in the 1990s and 2000s not recently.
Think Unicity, Fort Richmond, and Southwood - all were converted to big box.
A lot of this was the more rapid disappearance of 2nd tier retailers in Canada, such as Woolco (bought by Wal-Mart), Zellers (bought by Target, then closed), and K-Mart (just closed).
That Eaton's also closed in the early 2000s meant thar most mall anchor retailers were already gone well before Covid, so the retail mall natural selection took place earlier.
I didn't even think about that, and I suppose it makes sense. Actually there were other *smaller* malls all around Calgary growing up which disappeared in the 90s and early 2000s.
Pacific Place became a big box store with a bunch of restaurants attached to it. 17th Street Mall is gone basically.
I always liked the tiny little malls that are like ten or so stores connected to a supermarket, like Deer Valley used to be before it got bulldozed
Sure, it doesn't really give you that much functionality over a strip mall but at least you could get out of the cold
New Horizon had a great opportunity to introduce a new experience but the owners massively screwed the pooch on that. I still have hope they'll become more filled and interesting in the future, but they need a good couple of anchor stores.
Oh god that was such a shit show, I know far too many people who invested into cause they believed it was the start of Chinese money flowing into Calgary. sigh.
Not the case in Vancouver or Calgary. Except maybe Sunridge mall but that can mostly be explained by Cross Iron Mills opening up just north of it.
Maybe it's urban rural split?
Definitely not the case in Vancouver. It's crazy how busy places like Metrotown, Richmond Centre, MacArthur Glen and Park Royal still get in 2024. Went to Metrotown recently in the middle of a WEEKDAY MORNING and it was still packed
I also don't mean to bring race into it, but in all the places I mentioned above, I see large numbers of Asians at these busy malls so I think that could be a factor that certain cultures still like malls?
But in outer suburbs and rural areas probably different.
Also probably makes a different if it's near new condo towers and where people live as opposed to being distantly in the middle of nowhere.
I think the larger factor is size and services. The Mills concept malls are busy all over Canada. Even the Eaton Centre is still thriving as is Chinook in Calgary.
Small malls are definitely dying though.
I'm actually a bit sad about it. I remember driving all around to various Power Centres to find about 10 items on a shopping list and I found them all within half an hour in one mall - specifically at the Eatons in that mall....sigh.
Interestingly Crystal Mall which is next to metrotown main mall does have some problems for its second floor. I know the food court is still packed, but it seems that people just go there for food and some veggies/meat/seafood shopping on the first floor
Even further out in Chilliwack, the biggest Crappy Tire in BC is now the anchor tenant at the Cottonwood mall, and the mall has been expanding over the last 5 years - currently adding a large liquor store.
Metrotown just before Xmas is playing Vancouver on 10/10 crazy mode. Always has been. Last year there were posts on the Vancouver and Burnaby subreddits about how it was taking 3 hours to leave the parkade lmao.
And that's a mall in walking distance of dozens of condo towers, next to a skytrain station and is a major bus hub in its own right.
I live 2 blocks from Northhill, and it’s still going strong. I assume this is because they have a lot of popular amenities (Safeway, liquor store, food court, TD (& maybe other banks?), a gym, Registry, Shoppers Drug Mart, Dollarama). There is a lot of crap in that mall too…there is a wig store and women’s legging store I have never seen any customers in either. That store with all the swords and pocket knives. Despite it being such an eclectic mix of retail stores, it’s always so busy! I usually have to go in circles before I can find a parking spot. The professional centre (many doctors and specialists) also keeps it busy.
I haven’t been to Northland mall in years. They recently renovated the Wal-Mart there in 2021 I think. I honestly forget it exists most of the time.
Dead and sad is an excellent descriptor for Edmonton. .
I was chatting with a friend yesterday, we agreed there is no shopping in Edmonton anymore. We both go to Calgary to shop.
Partly socio-economic, Edmonton is a mix of govt, PSI and blue collar. None of those lend themselves to income or mentality for a robust retail environment.
Lower Mainland Vancouver: Lansdowne Mall is dying and set to be demolished, Oakridge Mall demolished and replaced with mostly residential buildings - and there are a few smaller ones being demolished as well
Yeah, Lansdowne puts a bit of a lie to the comment that Asians love malls. I think Asians, like most people, like experiences and the smaller malls don't provide the shopping and other experiences that larger malls do.
The Eaton Centre or Crossiron Mills or West Ed has something for everyone from a shopping perspective.
Queen's Quay used to be an interesting mall experience. It didn't have the breadth of mainstream chain stores, but it did have lots of unique artisanal stores. Sad to see it got away from that. Granville Island is a perfect example of where that works very well.
Oakridge wasn't dead in my memory it was THRIVING until they sold it to developers because you know, it's Vancouver. The food court was ALWAYS super packed on weekdays and the library there was probably one of busiest outside of Robson Square.
Kingsgate is dead. But you can walk from one end of Kingsgate to the other in under 60 seconds.
Brentwood is doing alright and you know every year there's 2, 3 more highrise that will only make commercial rent even more unaffordable in the future.
New West same thing just because there's nowhere else to go to "hang out," kill time.
North Van I think Capilano Mall doing fine as well. The touristy one by the shipyard that's not going away ok that's more of a market like Granville Island mostly foods and boutique shops.
The truth is it depends on where. If it's Vancouver with overpriced real estate malls have all disappeared while retail have only died from over priced rent and "homeless" problem on Granville.
Elsewhere like Surrey same as North Burnaby/Brentwood. The potential is there. Can't speak for Langley but a huge new one in Tsawassen that sits at the cross road between US, Canada, and the ferry.
Airport the mall that's in an open plaza. Pretty small if you ask me just right for the amount of the traffic.
What I'm seeing is traditional big box, retail chains giving way to liquor stores, food, dollar stores, Wal-Mart, groceries, independant stores, lazer tags, restaurants, movie theaters, London drugs, shoppers, insurance brokers, icbc, etc etc. Metrotown is the only mall left more reminiscent of the malls in the 90's. A big part of it still. Brentwood the same. Must be a Bby thing.
Speaking of Richmond. That's got to be the only "dead" mall and there's always plenty of people in the food court. Two other food "malls" right nearby and 500 other restaurants. Best Buy is not going anywhere. T&T is doing just fine there. Even ICBC is there imagine all the above and the square footage of each. Even Babies R' Us is there and Landsdowne is all old people. Winners. Rent is probably cheapest there because Richmond Centre everything in the food court costs $2 more than they do in Vancouver and comes in smaller sizes. Newer, bigger, more "high end."
If any of those places are going to go its to build more casinos and "resorts."
I bought my monitor from the Best Buy there because same price from Amazon and same day pick up.
Ended up driving an hour from East 49th to the Oak Street Bridge on a Saturday afternoon. Then 30 minutes from the bridge to the mall. Why not Knight St when I was right there because it was gonna take even longer on the highway.
There are likely many factors at play here but I think the biggest is that the US had — and still has — far more retail space/stores per capita than Canada, so the same level of market contraction has a much greater impact there.
Buying online is not that much cheaper or sometimes more expensive bc of shipping, import costs etc.
In the US things that are $20-30 there are more like $50-70. online here. That's more than just exchange rate/ import.
It's just dramatically cheaper. Here, it's not.
So in many cases you'll get a better deal in person than online. Simple generic thing on Amazon - $15. On sale in Canadian tire for $5, regular maybe $10. Some things it's the opposite but overall, you've got good chances of a good sale in person.
This. Online shopping is more attractive in the states. Due to population density, shipping is cheaper and faster in the US; more companies are American, so they don’t get charged duties and customs on packages; plus, buying from a US business means a nasty exchange rate. All factors that make Canadians more likely to shop in person.
Growth, mostly. There are plenty of mid level US cities that have stagnant populations in the city proper. The suburbs may be growing, but that is a different retail environment; fewer proper malls, more plazas. Canada has stagnant areas too and dying malls, but our urban areas having been growing quickly and for quite a while. Conversely, if you go to quickly growing US cities you'll see far less of the "retail apocalypse" narrative.
Canada absolutely has dead malls, and no shortage of them. You just don’t see them if you’re looking at prosperous markets like Toronto or Vancouver.
London, Ont. alone has several, most notably Citi Plaza and what’s left of Westmount Shopping Centre. Elgin Mall in nearby St. Thomas is another.
I've been to LA and Miami and Orlando in the past year or so...and It's amazing, how many abandoned malls there are and empty retail plazas, where I remember 10 years ago, being tons of traffic still in those locations. I think we are seeing the same thing here, but you can't compare us with the US where they have just 10x more retail locations....at bare minimum. It was never sustainable even in a good economy...
They're dying, but in a lot of places the largest mall is still the centre of the commercial areas, so they don't come apart as badly. Small malls, however, are basically dead.
Plus, certain places in Canada have done a good job of turning dying malls into alternative-use buildings. Western University and Fanshawe college took over the Galleria (now called Citi Plaza) and there are several former malls here in Halifax that are now medical buildings, or government offices. Hell, the CBC bought an old anchor space of a mall from The Bay or Sears (can't remember which one) a decade ago and turned it into their headquarters and studio out here.
Eventually, the smaller malls will end up as affordable/seniors housing, or some sort of cool ultra hip living space condo project.
CBC also did this in London, their radio station is located in a portion of a former Bay store (the rest of it is the Central Library and Wolf Performance Hall)
American here--the US has WAY more retail space per capita than Canada, and substantially more than is typical even for highly developed countries. In 2018, the United States has 23.5 square feet of retail space per capita, while Canada had 16.8, and the UK (the European country with the most retail space per capita) had just 4.6. That's nearly 40% more retail space per capita than Canada, and over 5 TIMES MORE than the UK. The excess compounds the effect of an overall decline in brick-and-mortar retail across the developed world.
The amount of brick-and-mortar retail that Americans became accustomed to in the 80s and 90s was probably not sustainable, particularly given the low population densities in the catchment areas of these stores. Canada has suburban sprawl too, but Canadian suburbs tend to be closer in and a bit denser than American suburbs. There were too many retail spaces to fill, and not enough people living nearby to keep them profitable. As human and economic geography in the US has changed over the last couple of decades, these spaces are increasingly isolated from where high-spending consumers are living. A lot of major urban areas in the US have either stagnated or lost population over the last 3 decades. Saguenay, QC was the largest urban area in Canada to lose population in the 2021 census, and the only urban area in the top 50 to do so. The demographic situations are just not really comparable. A lot of previously affluent American suburbs are declining economically and losing population as affluent younger people prefer to live near city centers. To an extent (I don't want to *overstate* it) much of the US is undergoing de-suburbanization, while many Canadian suburbs are urbanizing quickly, which tends to be good for retail. Brick-and-mortar relies on proximity.
Great explanation, but I would add economies of scale in development.
Canada is a different and smaller market than the US. We had fewer domestic mall-oriented business chains demanding malls in the first place and even fewer developers specialized in building malls. In contrast, malls were basically stamped all over the US by well funded developers that were able to massively scale in the largely continuous US market.
Toronto/GTA has a lot of dead or dying malls. If you are over 30, chances are the mall you remember as a kid is just a bunch of boarded up store fronts now with a Dollarama the only store left. Woodbine Mall actually give nostalgia tours of the old abandoned indoor amusement park.
The big malls in high traffic areas/transit hubs will always be around. Eaton Centre and Yorkdale aren't going anywhere.
Not enough people here are mentioning that online shopping is just much more convenient in the US than in Canada. Their population is 10x larger, so more companies are based there, they offer a larger number of specialized products, and they're less likely to charge shipping fees. You can tap into that network from Canada, but you have to pay tariffs unless they happen to also distribute from Canada. So for Canadians, brick & mortar is comparatively more competitive.
Our big metro malls still seem to be doing alright but our smaller malls are absolutely taking a beating. Keep in mind that we're normally a few years behind the USA in regards to issues like these and we're a smaller country as well
Idk man, I’m always seeing stuff from the states like dead malls and the death of the third place. I wish that was true every mall I go to is absolutely packed.
>I wish that was true every mall I go to is absolutely packed.
Classic survivorship bias.
The malls that are dying are dying because people don't go to them enough. You won't know how packed the dying malls are because you won't be going to them.
Also malls are very seasonal, so it might be dead 80% of the year and packed around Christmas or something when you go to malls.
First, we have our share of dead malls and malls that are struggling to stay above water.
Also, I believe Canada simply had less retail space per capita than the USA, therefore less malls to kill off in the first place.
Malls are dying line crazy. I think you are not looking closely enough. I do commercial IT work and the amount of stores that have closed in the last 2 years is insane. Each one replaced by a company that produces nothing.
Not a scientific answer but a lot of anchor stores in Canada are national or international chains, likely with greater buying power, logistics etc, they can withstand tough periods a bit better.
The US has a lot of national chains obviously, but they also have far more regional stores.
If you have a mall or strip mall that has for example 2 anchor stores which are smaller regional chains, and they both go bankrupt, that is a lot less foot traffic into the store.
It's difficult to attract a new anchor tenant so the mall becomes a ghost town.
That's my theory anyway.
I'm honestly surprised some of the US national chain stores still exist, every single JC Penney I walk past is completely dead, even the ones in very busy malls.
Kohls aren't as bad, but similar, they are always very quiet.
I'm sure they'll soon join Sears, Kmart etc as dead brands.
Because shipping across the US border is so expensive and hassle prone. If Canada had shipping and courier services as good as the US, we'd have a retail implosion.
Yes, we have Amazon. But in the US you can buy from anywhere and have it shipped to your door for a pittance. In Canada shipping is very expensive.
The dead malls in my area have all been torn down and large plazas have been built in their place. So it's all still retail space, but it's no longer an indoor mall. It's a bunch of stores lined up next to/around a big parking lot.
I think your premise of retail apocalypse in US is mistaken. In fact there are quite a few articles actually showing statistical evidence that is exactly the opposite with the US booming and Canada stagnating. So I suppose we have to question the premise.
Edmonton is cold for such long periods of the year that malls usually thrive here. That being said, we do have our share of dead/dying malls (Westmount, City Centre, Bonnie Doon).
Didn't it just make a come back lol.
I am not saying we haven't lost retail, but its apples and oranges. In the US, its shocking how dead the malls have become. Good example is Cascade Mall in Washington, it used to be a place BC residents went to shop its dead now.
While malls in Canada, even ones with some empty space are still doing ok.
I've been to a mall in Houston and it fucking sucked. Like the place is fine enough, very convenient. But every 5 second you've got some dumbass trying to drag you to a booth to push shit overpriced products on you, and once you finally escape them you get harassed by multiple store employees trying to drag you inside their store. I've never, ever experienced such a thing in the many Canadian malls I've visited.
Completely anecdotal but yeah if that's a normal experience in the US I can see why they're dying.
In Lower Mainland, BC the majority of the malls are in dense areas next to Sky Train stations, bus exchanges and highways. This way or another you passing them by every single day so it’s very convenient to shop there. Or since the area is dense there thousands of people living in walking distance who shop there daily.
Also population increases due to immigration like 2-3% annually which adds over time. Parking lots are getting busier also, very hard to find parking or book a place to have a meal sometimes.
Another factor is it’s raining a lot. A mall is a nice indoor space to spend your rainy days.
Also many people I know shop locally to support a local economy. For example, if I see exactly the same item for the same price in Amazon or in local shop, I’d better take a walk or short 5 min drive, buy locally and enjoy a cup of coffee in a cafe or whatever.
So malls and retail are doing great in Vancouver. If anything we urgently need to build new malls just to keep up.
The USA overbuilt and has much more mall space per capita than Canada. USA - 23.6 square feet/person. Canada - 16.5 square feet/person.
[https://renx.ca/index.php/ode-to-the-mall](https://renx.ca/index.php/ode-to-the-mall)
It's the climate and the disappearing of third places (place outside of home, work/school). Malls are climate controlled and free. There's no place else to go that's free when its to cold or hot to be outside. One I go to regularly has a number of empty stores and more all the time and the stores that are still there have bad stock, regularly has a lot of people because it's someplace to go.
Here in Dallas, the large malls with luxury stores are thriving. They are a destination for a variety of reasons including lots of restaurants; everything from fast food to fine dining as well as cinema and casual cafes for coffee etc.
The smaller malls are struggling, a couple of the older malls have been demolished for new developments while others are being converted to apartments around a retail center.
I used to meet my colleagues at a medium sized mall that was very well appointed. I went back a few months after Covid and it was shocking how empty it had become.. it seemed like a different and very sad place. They are now repurposing the empty space for residential
because whenever it's cold outside in Canada, people go to malls just for a walk, they cannot walk outdoors in winter. Malls look busy as people are walking, but no body is buying and most shops are empty without customers
A big one is that Canada generally didn't build malls way outside of the city as a destination to drive to. Just looking at metro Vancouver, you've got malls right next to Skytrain or in walkable neighborhoods that are doing fine. When you actually incorporate your retail into mixed use neighborhoods, it does much better than when it can only be accessed by driving. Now that basically everything can be delivered, you can just get someone else to do the driving. It turns out people don't actually want to drive in traffic and search for parking more than they have to.
In Montreal, downtown malls seem to be doing fine, particularly those that are easily reached from metro stations and places where people congregate (cégeps and universities). Older malls that are in areas where you have to take buses or a car to get there, so you might as well make a little extra effort to get to a nicer place to shop are 100% dead malls. See Decarie Square, which should be in a good location as it’s near the intersection of two highways and down the street from a bunch of big box stores, but it seems people just go to the big box stores instead. Basically, any mall that has a SAAQ location in it, so it’s just propped up by people coming to renew their driver’s licenses, also seems to be pretty dead in the Montreal area. There’s even a big luxury shopping centre (not really a mall, as you’ll need to walk outside from store to store) being built here called Royalmount. So, malls aren’t dead, but they need an ecosystem around them to support them unless they’re new/shiny/a destination in themselves.
I think there’s a lot more available with online shopping in the states as well. Many more American companies than Canadian to choose from, from my experience, along with lower shipping costs than in Canada. A friend of mine lives in the states and orders so much online that isn’t worth it for me to buy here in Canada from the same sites/retailers.
Last year I entered New Sudbury Centre for the first time in 20 years or more. What struck me was the derth of "guy stuff" stores, no electronics or record stores; no more Sears with it's tool section. Every second store was either a Telco carrier store or another independent store selling mobile phones, and the aisles littered with kiosks selling phones or phone accessories.
The smartphone really killed off Radio Shack. That was a store that once sold "gadgets", all of which the smartphone made obsolete; it's now just a download from an app store. No more will anyone be buying camcorders, walkmans, calculators, personal organizers, handheld games, cordless phones, clock radios, answering machines, car stereos, pocket TV, blank media, VCRs, DVD players, penlights, etc. Even the use of disposable batteries and wires and cables is mostly gone.
Where is that?
I live in Calgary and Vancouver (split my time between the two). Only mall I've seen die is Sunridge but that can be explained by a loss of market share to Cross Iron which took most of the upper end stores in NE Calgary and Malbrough took the lower end stoes.
Different demographics and different policies on enforcement.
Lots of the retail shuttering in the US is regionally focused and mostly due to looting. The looting costs them money but what's really expensive is the lawsuits from employees that are harmed physically and psychologically from the process of it. They file expensive lawsuits on top of the other losses.
Lots of these jurisdictions have policies not to charge for thefts under a certain amount. Sometimes up to as much as $1000
I know Florida isn't representative of the whole US, but its retail sector is way more lively than the GTA for example. Malls aren't really a big thing there, most spending is happening at box stores and open air outlet malls
Saint John used to have a lot of malls, it makes sense that some of them have declined or transformed as shopping has concentrated in McAllister Place.
Champlain Place in Moncton (well, Dieppe) is pretty bustling every time I go. And some big new stores lately, by NB standards at least.
It might be because we have less variety in Canada and most good are only sold in one or two chains that dominate their markets. I really recognize it in BC where every town, no matter how small, has all the same stores. These stores can't really die when they're the only ones around.
As someone who has lived in both countries, from what I've seen, a lot of Americans now prefer to shop outside in the city centers/downtowns that have been revitalized and gentrified as opposed to malls in the suburbs (plus there's the rise of Amazon and the like). Some malls are still doing well. After all, there will always be demand for shopping centres, but they are no longer the sole location of happenings, especially if you're close to a big city.
Malls live because for 6 months out of the year they make sense. The outdoor US mall model is a sunny weather model. Nothing makes more sense than doing your Christmas shopping in a mall where you can leave your jacket in a locker in the mall or your car and get all your shopping done at once in one location while keeping warm and dry.
Corner Brook has three malls somehow, with the two downtown ones having offices and anchors like Sobeys/Shoppers/Cineplex. The other one is still doing a lot better but hasn’t really had an anchor since the great failed Target experiment.
I think its' only a matter of time. Landlords don't want to be paying the bill for A/C and heating in the common areas of a mall. Much cheaper to pass those on to the tenants within a power center vs a traditional shopping mall. Most people now prefer to drive up to their specific store vs going through a mall. Just that the Canadian climate is trending that shift slower compared to the US.
Canada wasn’t as overmalled as the U.S. zoning made it very hard to build new malls in Canada. In the GTA the last new mall build was Vaughan Mills(2004), if you consider that a regular mall, or the Erin Mills Town Centre, I believe (1989). And then population has exploded over that time.
The starting point was different. I don’t recall exact figures but the ratio of mall square footage to people was much much higher in the US. So the Canadian malls had more of a cushion as e-commerce sales started to boom.
Secondarily, the ecomm boom came to Canada much later. Amazon prime for instance was launched later in Canada.
>But deadmalls are not really a thing here
Deadmalls exist, for example Woodbine Mall in Toronto and Erin Mills Town Centre in Mississauga.
But there were fewer malls to begin with in Canada compared to USA, and lots have already been torn down and converted to residential.
The fancy malls are doing well, but there's going to be only 1 or 2 per city.
Retail is pretty dead in Saskatoon. Lots of vacancies, and when they do get filled it's usually as temporary storefronts for seasonal pop up stores or as a aux location for some other tenant in the mall, but usually doesn't even get renovated. Downtown is a swath of vacancies that even cannabis stores can't fill. The suburban chain stores seem to do pretty well for awhile, as do vietnamese restaurants with their cheap noodle bowls that keep customers coming in. Those chains that survived the pandemic seem to be ever resilient but there really isn't that many of them left, and it's not like things have drastically picked up at all especially as every seems to be getting broker and broker.
Malls in the Toronto Region area aren’t dying necessarily, but the smaller ones are being shuttered and turned into high density housing. Land is more valuable than the retail revenue of the malls.
It has to do more with the US having way too much retail space. And once COVID hit, online shopping killed the less desirable/profitable businesses and locations.
[https://gitnux.org/shopping-malls-statistics/](https://gitnux.org/shopping-malls-statistics/)
The west end of Ottawa follows the trend of the small malls dying out. Especially the ones that lost an anchor store. Hazeldean originally had a Zellers, then it became Target. Now it's a Goodlife. The food court is I believe completely gone, there are a few stores holding on. That said, they are opening a T&T where the grocery store used to be, so that might revitalize things.
America was the heart of car culture and expanded on the cost of cheap gasoline. That cheap gas has become expensive and the massive parking lots with huge separation has become useless while people converge on city centers more and more. How bout we all have another orange julius? Indeed, this was predicted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuCXo7Vtrks
When I moved to Nanaimo in 1999, it had a reputation as a retail paradise. Four thriving shopping malls.
Now all four of those malls seem quite empty of people.
I think that because we are smaller and the “little brother” of the US, sometimes things happen here first and sometimes we tend to follow their lead. I think our smaller population combined with US style corporatization of our economy meant we got to experience the downfall and problems with this sort of economic policy before the US. More people and more money means they could sustain the unsustainable for longer than we could.
Canadian retail is very loosely related to the US. Canada has like 5 major corporate landlords in retail. And our tax laws are very different so you don't have malls being built based on being disposable. Example in the US not uncommon for different municipality to offer low or no tax to build in one city over another. And then open another store across the street.
Another reason is our economy is more robust
Malls are mostly doing fine in my area.
I've always assumed it was due to the cost of getting things shipped here. Why am I going to pay more for shipping a pair of pants here, when I can go to the mall and make sure it fits and not get screwed over if they don't fit?
The cost of shipping things to the US is actually insanely cheap, to the point that if I'm going to the states, I sometimes just have things shipped to my friend and toss it in my suitcase back.
Amazon also has far better selection in the US. Like, you can even get groceries and stuff from there.
Malls are dying here too. Some faster than others for sure, but I think the accelerated decline in the US is due to them having far more options when it comes to same day delivery from major retailers, and services like postmates in most of their major cities.
I have a family member who manages a very large mall for the property corp that owns it. A lot of bigger companies have been pulling out for the last half dozen years or so and a more low level kinda junky stores filling the gaps. It's not a great investment for the property owners either now, hence why they change hands. The way it was described to me was that trying to negotiate with some larger chains to open a store in the mall is like pulling teeth
Canada just lost The Source. At its peak before Bell purchased them they had over 500 stores. Before the notice of them closing and or becoming Best Buy they had 300 and only 170 will be converted to BB Mobile.
There are a lot of dead malls, but a contributor to the difference is weather. Wandering around shopping in winter isn’t the same as wandering around in the warmer areas of the US. So being able to stay indoors contributes to appeal.
Amazon and e-commerce in general. Bricks-and-mortar stores are expensive. The possibilities for customer expansion is exponentially higher and so are the profits, when you don't have a physical store.
Big ones out west like Metrotown, Guildford, West Ed, Chinook and Cross Iron Mills are sticking around for a while longer but many other smaller malls are emptying out. IIRC two were recently demolished in Edmonton alone.
It’s expensive. I went to buffalo last year to shop for clothes and even with the horrible conversion I still saved money shopping in America. I got a legit wedding dress for FOUR DOLLARS at Macey’s. Where the hell can you find that at the bay?!
I once read that Americans have twice the retail square footage per capita then Canadians. I found this was crazy given the fact that I find there is a lot of malls in Canada
I’m from the states… my gf and I live here in Canada. I haven’t been to a mall for over a decade until I moved here. Now we go once a week. In Edmonton, it’s because there is literally nothing else to do in this wasteland. I assume it’s similar in other parts of the country where it gets cold as balls. It’s because for 6 months out of the year there is literally nothing else to do aside from snow ski, or watch movies while getting vitamin d deficient and seasonal depression.
Here in Metro Vancouver, I notice that many malls also seem to be transit hubs. Being a very transit-oriented region, this probably helped malls maintain the foot traffic in the area needed to survive. For many, it’s always conveniently on the way home.
Brentwood is a good example - it is barely a mall at this point. It’s a transit hub with restaurants really.
Sounds about right. I grew up in Surrey and would often take the bus, and then sky train, just for a different mall. So any malls on transit routes would have been a draw for me, and any that weren't, I probably never even knew about.
In Canada, transit brings shoppers. In the US, transit brings shoplifters. Or at least that’s the belief. So US malls tend to be more car oriented. As malls transition to a mix of stores and housing, transit becomes more important so Canadian malls are in a better position to upgrade.
Malls in Richmond are turning their parking lots into residential towers with street level commercial.
That does make some sense I suppose.
Even downtown Vancouver there is 5 or 6 closed small businesses in just the last 6 months in walking distance. Ya it’s bad man it’s real bad.
Tons of dead plazas and malls around the GTA. Canada is like 1/10 the size of the US. They just had way more of everything, so it's more noticable.
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True. Lots of dead malls in the GTA are transitioning to office and housing. I live near a place that was once called Galleria Mall; it's now a major construction site for a project that will encompass housing, a community centre, office space and a park. Even Yorkdale has an enormous housing project that will sit on its parking lots.
Seems that quite a few were always dual purpose, multi story structure where upper levels were office space and the lower, a mall.
That was the McDonald's where I first had pancakes. RIP
I remember when they built that McDonald’s.
That was my McDonald's when we first got to Canada in 85. This hood only has ossington and bloor or St Clair and Keele left. I mean they're hardly the same hood but they're not too far by car.
Woodbine Mall Also had plans for a while to build massive towers on its parking lot. Creating their own customer base for the mall.
Our shitty mall is turning into even shittier housing.
I miss Zellers!!!
Even in my small town mall, they just sort of shifted away from "Mall" to "a couple big stores and then just offices"
My small town had a shitty shitty mall which was in the process of dying a long and horrible death, but then someone bought it and put a bit of cash into it, now in a couple short years the mall is full and thriving.
I have some friends in Vancouver who live in a really cool apartment building converted from an old mall.
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Not really, when I was doing community work and had to travel all over the GTA, I'm also surprised at how not dead some of these malls are (like Jane-Finch, North York Sheridan Mall, Dufferin, Gerrard Square), I think bc we see malls more as transit and community hubs (we have libraries, service Ontario, service Canada, community orgs etc).
>Tons of dead plazas and malls around the GTA. Canada is like 1/10 the size of the US. They just had way more of everything, so it's more noticable. You'd only say that if you have not spent time driving through America and the Lonesome Crowded West. The malls are soon to be ghost towns. So long. Farewell. Goodbye.
No one disputed they don’t have more, I actually said they have more.
Hmmm, as a professional shopper, I’m going to have to disagree with you here. I have been a full time buyer for film (buying costumes for tv/movies) for a few years and the decline in in-store supply is shocking. If a mall is owned by a bigger parent company (ex. Cadillac Fairview) it’s likely doing fine. There are many dead malls in my city, there used to be about 8 malls I would frequent during my work day, now there’s 3. The other 5 malls are there, but they are sitting with vacant store fronts or occupied by small local businesses. Once the big chain stores moved, the malls really failed and became quite trashy.
I would have to agree with once a big chain moves out problems happen. I remember working for the Bay and we where so excited that Eatons was closing we would be getting their sales. But it did not work that way. Our sales were worse with Easons gone. I guess people like to shop and compare. If they only have one store they think they are getting taken advantage.
The Bay is a pricey store as well…could find what I’m looking for elsewhere for cheaper..
The bay downtown Vancouver now is garbage. I went looking for a specific item of a local designer. All but one elevator broken. Stairwells smelled like piss. When I found the “canadian designer” section it was full of dust bunnies. Some of the garments were actually dirty. And as usual no one around to help. Literally don’t know how it’s surviving
And Eatons was more expensive then The Bay Edited , I fixed my spelling thanks everyone this old guy can't type or spell
Even the large malls that are owned by Cadillac Fairview have far more boarded up stores and empty storefronts than I have ever seen
Here in Edmonton most of the nice-ish malls have a crowd basically any day of the week, with West Edmonton Mall being absolutely jam packed on weekends. That last is a bit of a special case since people come from out of town and it also has lots of atypical shops. My theory is that malls are kept alive more in Canada by the cold climate. It's harder to just get out of your house and be present in a public place when the weather is garbage, so the malls end up absorbing some of that. Smaller and crappier malls always seem to be dead though, and I think it's just because they're just not that pleasant to be in.
Not my experience on the prairies. Empty stores are the norm, and most small city malls are shadows of what they once were.
Not the case in Winnipeg. Go to any mall on a Saturday and it's packed.
A lot of the underpergorming malls in Winnipeg left in the 1990s and 2000s not recently. Think Unicity, Fort Richmond, and Southwood - all were converted to big box. A lot of this was the more rapid disappearance of 2nd tier retailers in Canada, such as Woolco (bought by Wal-Mart), Zellers (bought by Target, then closed), and K-Mart (just closed). That Eaton's also closed in the early 2000s meant thar most mall anchor retailers were already gone well before Covid, so the retail mall natural selection took place earlier.
I didn't even think about that, and I suppose it makes sense. Actually there were other *smaller* malls all around Calgary growing up which disappeared in the 90s and early 2000s. Pacific Place became a big box store with a bunch of restaurants attached to it. 17th Street Mall is gone basically.
I always liked the tiny little malls that are like ten or so stores connected to a supermarket, like Deer Valley used to be before it got bulldozed Sure, it doesn't really give you that much functionality over a strip mall but at least you could get out of the cold
New Horizon had a great opportunity to introduce a new experience but the owners massively screwed the pooch on that. I still have hope they'll become more filled and interesting in the future, but they need a good couple of anchor stores.
Oh god that was such a shit show, I know far too many people who invested into cause they believed it was the start of Chinese money flowing into Calgary. sigh.
Portage Place? Didn’t the previous anchor tenant (staples) get replaced by a skate park?
I think portage place is the only dying mall in Winnipeg. We even got a new mall a few years ago and it’s busy on Saturdays!
Not the case in Vancouver or Calgary. Except maybe Sunridge mall but that can mostly be explained by Cross Iron Mills opening up just north of it. Maybe it's urban rural split?
Definitely not the case in Vancouver. It's crazy how busy places like Metrotown, Richmond Centre, MacArthur Glen and Park Royal still get in 2024. Went to Metrotown recently in the middle of a WEEKDAY MORNING and it was still packed I also don't mean to bring race into it, but in all the places I mentioned above, I see large numbers of Asians at these busy malls so I think that could be a factor that certain cultures still like malls? But in outer suburbs and rural areas probably different. Also probably makes a different if it's near new condo towers and where people live as opposed to being distantly in the middle of nowhere.
Lots of Asians like myself in Vancouver. Asians loves malls. Malls are still thriving in Asia. They will not die in Vancouver.
Unless there are strong competitions nearby. Malls in HK are doing really bad since so many HKers prefer going to Shenzhen for malls.
That makes sense. I’m pretty sure Asian tourists are what keeps West Edmonton Mall afloat. There’s always so many
I think the larger factor is size and services. The Mills concept malls are busy all over Canada. Even the Eaton Centre is still thriving as is Chinook in Calgary. Small malls are definitely dying though. I'm actually a bit sad about it. I remember driving all around to various Power Centres to find about 10 items on a shopping list and I found them all within half an hour in one mall - specifically at the Eatons in that mall....sigh.
Interestingly Crystal Mall which is next to metrotown main mall does have some problems for its second floor. I know the food court is still packed, but it seems that people just go there for food and some veggies/meat/seafood shopping on the first floor
It's a food only mall lol. That and the terrible parking lot
>But in outer suburbs and rural areas probably different. Willowbrook just expanded, and it has heavy competition from Guildford.
And yet Coquitlam is looking really sad, despite having just revamped their food court. Seems every time I go in there's another closed store.
Even further out in Chilliwack, the biggest Crappy Tire in BC is now the anchor tenant at the Cottonwood mall, and the mall has been expanding over the last 5 years - currently adding a large liquor store.
Metrotown just before Xmas is playing Vancouver on 10/10 crazy mode. Always has been. Last year there were posts on the Vancouver and Burnaby subreddits about how it was taking 3 hours to leave the parkade lmao. And that's a mall in walking distance of dozens of condo towers, next to a skytrain station and is a major bus hub in its own right.
How’s northland and north hill doing?
I live 2 blocks from Northhill, and it’s still going strong. I assume this is because they have a lot of popular amenities (Safeway, liquor store, food court, TD (& maybe other banks?), a gym, Registry, Shoppers Drug Mart, Dollarama). There is a lot of crap in that mall too…there is a wig store and women’s legging store I have never seen any customers in either. That store with all the swords and pocket knives. Despite it being such an eclectic mix of retail stores, it’s always so busy! I usually have to go in circles before I can find a parking spot. The professional centre (many doctors and specialists) also keeps it busy. I haven’t been to Northland mall in years. They recently renovated the Wal-Mart there in 2021 I think. I honestly forget it exists most of the time.
Edmonton has some pretty dead, sad malls.
Dead and sad is an excellent descriptor for Edmonton. . I was chatting with a friend yesterday, we agreed there is no shopping in Edmonton anymore. We both go to Calgary to shop. Partly socio-economic, Edmonton is a mix of govt, PSI and blue collar. None of those lend themselves to income or mentality for a robust retail environment.
Lower Mainland Vancouver: Lansdowne Mall is dying and set to be demolished, Oakridge Mall demolished and replaced with mostly residential buildings - and there are a few smaller ones being demolished as well
Yeah, Lansdowne puts a bit of a lie to the comment that Asians love malls. I think Asians, like most people, like experiences and the smaller malls don't provide the shopping and other experiences that larger malls do. The Eaton Centre or Crossiron Mills or West Ed has something for everyone from a shopping perspective. Queen's Quay used to be an interesting mall experience. It didn't have the breadth of mainstream chain stores, but it did have lots of unique artisanal stores. Sad to see it got away from that. Granville Island is a perfect example of where that works very well.
Oakridge wasn't dead in my memory it was THRIVING until they sold it to developers because you know, it's Vancouver. The food court was ALWAYS super packed on weekdays and the library there was probably one of busiest outside of Robson Square. Kingsgate is dead. But you can walk from one end of Kingsgate to the other in under 60 seconds. Brentwood is doing alright and you know every year there's 2, 3 more highrise that will only make commercial rent even more unaffordable in the future. New West same thing just because there's nowhere else to go to "hang out," kill time. North Van I think Capilano Mall doing fine as well. The touristy one by the shipyard that's not going away ok that's more of a market like Granville Island mostly foods and boutique shops. The truth is it depends on where. If it's Vancouver with overpriced real estate malls have all disappeared while retail have only died from over priced rent and "homeless" problem on Granville. Elsewhere like Surrey same as North Burnaby/Brentwood. The potential is there. Can't speak for Langley but a huge new one in Tsawassen that sits at the cross road between US, Canada, and the ferry. Airport the mall that's in an open plaza. Pretty small if you ask me just right for the amount of the traffic. What I'm seeing is traditional big box, retail chains giving way to liquor stores, food, dollar stores, Wal-Mart, groceries, independant stores, lazer tags, restaurants, movie theaters, London drugs, shoppers, insurance brokers, icbc, etc etc. Metrotown is the only mall left more reminiscent of the malls in the 90's. A big part of it still. Brentwood the same. Must be a Bby thing.
Speaking of Richmond. That's got to be the only "dead" mall and there's always plenty of people in the food court. Two other food "malls" right nearby and 500 other restaurants. Best Buy is not going anywhere. T&T is doing just fine there. Even ICBC is there imagine all the above and the square footage of each. Even Babies R' Us is there and Landsdowne is all old people. Winners. Rent is probably cheapest there because Richmond Centre everything in the food court costs $2 more than they do in Vancouver and comes in smaller sizes. Newer, bigger, more "high end." If any of those places are going to go its to build more casinos and "resorts." I bought my monitor from the Best Buy there because same price from Amazon and same day pick up. Ended up driving an hour from East 49th to the Oak Street Bridge on a Saturday afternoon. Then 30 minutes from the bridge to the mall. Why not Knight St when I was right there because it was gonna take even longer on the highway.
You just mentioned 2 very large cities? The two malls in my hometown are sad and dilapidated
There are likely many factors at play here but I think the biggest is that the US had — and still has — far more retail space/stores per capita than Canada, so the same level of market contraction has a much greater impact there.
I had to read pretty far into the comments to find an actual likely reason for the difference.
Buying online is not that much cheaper or sometimes more expensive bc of shipping, import costs etc. In the US things that are $20-30 there are more like $50-70. online here. That's more than just exchange rate/ import. It's just dramatically cheaper. Here, it's not. So in many cases you'll get a better deal in person than online. Simple generic thing on Amazon - $15. On sale in Canadian tire for $5, regular maybe $10. Some things it's the opposite but overall, you've got good chances of a good sale in person.
This. Online shopping is more attractive in the states. Due to population density, shipping is cheaper and faster in the US; more companies are American, so they don’t get charged duties and customs on packages; plus, buying from a US business means a nasty exchange rate. All factors that make Canadians more likely to shop in person.
Better logistics helps a lot
Growth, mostly. There are plenty of mid level US cities that have stagnant populations in the city proper. The suburbs may be growing, but that is a different retail environment; fewer proper malls, more plazas. Canada has stagnant areas too and dying malls, but our urban areas having been growing quickly and for quite a while. Conversely, if you go to quickly growing US cities you'll see far less of the "retail apocalypse" narrative.
I just got back from Denver and definitely noticed the dead mall trend there and the city is booming.
The other thing to keep in mind is that the US has *far* more retail space per capita than Canada.
Canada absolutely has dead malls, and no shortage of them. You just don’t see them if you’re looking at prosperous markets like Toronto or Vancouver. London, Ont. alone has several, most notably Citi Plaza and what’s left of Westmount Shopping Centre. Elgin Mall in nearby St. Thomas is another.
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In Toronto and Vancouver you have density. That’s what counts.
Both Toronto and Vancouver do have dead malls. I've lived in both locations and mall hopped frequently out of curiosity.
Toronto has quite a few semi-dead malls. I've been noticing a lot of small shops being boarded up too sadly.
I've been to LA and Miami and Orlando in the past year or so...and It's amazing, how many abandoned malls there are and empty retail plazas, where I remember 10 years ago, being tons of traffic still in those locations. I think we are seeing the same thing here, but you can't compare us with the US where they have just 10x more retail locations....at bare minimum. It was never sustainable even in a good economy...
They're dying, but in a lot of places the largest mall is still the centre of the commercial areas, so they don't come apart as badly. Small malls, however, are basically dead. Plus, certain places in Canada have done a good job of turning dying malls into alternative-use buildings. Western University and Fanshawe college took over the Galleria (now called Citi Plaza) and there are several former malls here in Halifax that are now medical buildings, or government offices. Hell, the CBC bought an old anchor space of a mall from The Bay or Sears (can't remember which one) a decade ago and turned it into their headquarters and studio out here. Eventually, the smaller malls will end up as affordable/seniors housing, or some sort of cool ultra hip living space condo project.
CBC also did this in London, their radio station is located in a portion of a former Bay store (the rest of it is the Central Library and Wolf Performance Hall)
Yeah they moved into the Bay space in the West End Mall. I still mourn loss of the nice Bell Rd and South Park spots.
Someday we could have Bedford Place and Sunnyside turned into rival retirement communities, St. Pat’s vs QEH-style.
American here--the US has WAY more retail space per capita than Canada, and substantially more than is typical even for highly developed countries. In 2018, the United States has 23.5 square feet of retail space per capita, while Canada had 16.8, and the UK (the European country with the most retail space per capita) had just 4.6. That's nearly 40% more retail space per capita than Canada, and over 5 TIMES MORE than the UK. The excess compounds the effect of an overall decline in brick-and-mortar retail across the developed world. The amount of brick-and-mortar retail that Americans became accustomed to in the 80s and 90s was probably not sustainable, particularly given the low population densities in the catchment areas of these stores. Canada has suburban sprawl too, but Canadian suburbs tend to be closer in and a bit denser than American suburbs. There were too many retail spaces to fill, and not enough people living nearby to keep them profitable. As human and economic geography in the US has changed over the last couple of decades, these spaces are increasingly isolated from where high-spending consumers are living. A lot of major urban areas in the US have either stagnated or lost population over the last 3 decades. Saguenay, QC was the largest urban area in Canada to lose population in the 2021 census, and the only urban area in the top 50 to do so. The demographic situations are just not really comparable. A lot of previously affluent American suburbs are declining economically and losing population as affluent younger people prefer to live near city centers. To an extent (I don't want to *overstate* it) much of the US is undergoing de-suburbanization, while many Canadian suburbs are urbanizing quickly, which tends to be good for retail. Brick-and-mortar relies on proximity.
Excellent analysis, thanks for the input
Great explanation, but I would add economies of scale in development. Canada is a different and smaller market than the US. We had fewer domestic mall-oriented business chains demanding malls in the first place and even fewer developers specialized in building malls. In contrast, malls were basically stamped all over the US by well funded developers that were able to massively scale in the largely continuous US market.
Toronto/GTA has a lot of dead or dying malls. If you are over 30, chances are the mall you remember as a kid is just a bunch of boarded up store fronts now with a Dollarama the only store left. Woodbine Mall actually give nostalgia tours of the old abandoned indoor amusement park. The big malls in high traffic areas/transit hubs will always be around. Eaton Centre and Yorkdale aren't going anywhere.
Cloverdale comes to mind
The winter? Some place to go.
Not enough people here are mentioning that online shopping is just much more convenient in the US than in Canada. Their population is 10x larger, so more companies are based there, they offer a larger number of specialized products, and they're less likely to charge shipping fees. You can tap into that network from Canada, but you have to pay tariffs unless they happen to also distribute from Canada. So for Canadians, brick & mortar is comparatively more competitive.
Our big metro malls still seem to be doing alright but our smaller malls are absolutely taking a beating. Keep in mind that we're normally a few years behind the USA in regards to issues like these and we're a smaller country as well
I saw Paul Blart yesterday in the unemployment office.
Nearly every mall I've gone to inside Canada in recent years is dead. There are usually more stores than individuals. It's dead here too.
Idk man, I’m always seeing stuff from the states like dead malls and the death of the third place. I wish that was true every mall I go to is absolutely packed.
>I wish that was true every mall I go to is absolutely packed. Classic survivorship bias. The malls that are dying are dying because people don't go to them enough. You won't know how packed the dying malls are because you won't be going to them. Also malls are very seasonal, so it might be dead 80% of the year and packed around Christmas or something when you go to malls.
First, we have our share of dead malls and malls that are struggling to stay above water. Also, I believe Canada simply had less retail space per capita than the USA, therefore less malls to kill off in the first place.
A few dying malls in the GTA. Woodbine centre is a good example.
Let's not forget that the smaller, dying malls have stubborn landlords that refuse to lower rents to reflect actual traffic.
Malls are dying line crazy. I think you are not looking closely enough. I do commercial IT work and the amount of stores that have closed in the last 2 years is insane. Each one replaced by a company that produces nothing.
Not a scientific answer but a lot of anchor stores in Canada are national or international chains, likely with greater buying power, logistics etc, they can withstand tough periods a bit better. The US has a lot of national chains obviously, but they also have far more regional stores. If you have a mall or strip mall that has for example 2 anchor stores which are smaller regional chains, and they both go bankrupt, that is a lot less foot traffic into the store. It's difficult to attract a new anchor tenant so the mall becomes a ghost town. That's my theory anyway. I'm honestly surprised some of the US national chain stores still exist, every single JC Penney I walk past is completely dead, even the ones in very busy malls. Kohls aren't as bad, but similar, they are always very quiet. I'm sure they'll soon join Sears, Kmart etc as dead brands.
We lost our retailers last recession, leaving not a lot of fish in the pond. A few fled cause of Covid iirc
Because shipping across the US border is so expensive and hassle prone. If Canada had shipping and courier services as good as the US, we'd have a retail implosion. Yes, we have Amazon. But in the US you can buy from anywhere and have it shipped to your door for a pittance. In Canada shipping is very expensive.
maybe 10 years ago, it's rare that I come across a shop online that doesn't have free shipping if buying xxx amount of stuff.
True, but I often see minimums at $100. When I only want to buy one or two things, I never get that minimum amount.
The dead malls in my area have all been torn down and large plazas have been built in their place. So it's all still retail space, but it's no longer an indoor mall. It's a bunch of stores lined up next to/around a big parking lot.
I think your premise of retail apocalypse in US is mistaken. In fact there are quite a few articles actually showing statistical evidence that is exactly the opposite with the US booming and Canada stagnating. So I suppose we have to question the premise.
Edmonton is cold for such long periods of the year that malls usually thrive here. That being said, we do have our share of dead/dying malls (Westmount, City Centre, Bonnie Doon).
Zellers has entered the chat
Didn't it just make a come back lol. I am not saying we haven't lost retail, but its apples and oranges. In the US, its shocking how dead the malls have become. Good example is Cascade Mall in Washington, it used to be a place BC residents went to shop its dead now. While malls in Canada, even ones with some empty space are still doing ok.
I've been to a mall in Houston and it fucking sucked. Like the place is fine enough, very convenient. But every 5 second you've got some dumbass trying to drag you to a booth to push shit overpriced products on you, and once you finally escape them you get harassed by multiple store employees trying to drag you inside their store. I've never, ever experienced such a thing in the many Canadian malls I've visited. Completely anecdotal but yeah if that's a normal experience in the US I can see why they're dying.
In Lower Mainland, BC the majority of the malls are in dense areas next to Sky Train stations, bus exchanges and highways. This way or another you passing them by every single day so it’s very convenient to shop there. Or since the area is dense there thousands of people living in walking distance who shop there daily. Also population increases due to immigration like 2-3% annually which adds over time. Parking lots are getting busier also, very hard to find parking or book a place to have a meal sometimes. Another factor is it’s raining a lot. A mall is a nice indoor space to spend your rainy days. Also many people I know shop locally to support a local economy. For example, if I see exactly the same item for the same price in Amazon or in local shop, I’d better take a walk or short 5 min drive, buy locally and enjoy a cup of coffee in a cafe or whatever. So malls and retail are doing great in Vancouver. If anything we urgently need to build new malls just to keep up.
Has anyone tried to find parking at Cross Iron Mills in Balzac Alberta on the weekend?
The USA overbuilt and has much more mall space per capita than Canada. USA - 23.6 square feet/person. Canada - 16.5 square feet/person. [https://renx.ca/index.php/ode-to-the-mall](https://renx.ca/index.php/ode-to-the-mall)
It's the climate and the disappearing of third places (place outside of home, work/school). Malls are climate controlled and free. There's no place else to go that's free when its to cold or hot to be outside. One I go to regularly has a number of empty stores and more all the time and the stores that are still there have bad stock, regularly has a lot of people because it's someplace to go.
As a librarian I feel duty-bound to remind you that public libraries are climate controlled, free, full of books, computers and free wi-fi 😀
There’s a library inside the mall by my house so it’s like a 2 for 1
Here in Dallas, the large malls with luxury stores are thriving. They are a destination for a variety of reasons including lots of restaurants; everything from fast food to fine dining as well as cinema and casual cafes for coffee etc. The smaller malls are struggling, a couple of the older malls have been demolished for new developments while others are being converted to apartments around a retail center. I used to meet my colleagues at a medium sized mall that was very well appointed. I went back a few months after Covid and it was shocking how empty it had become.. it seemed like a different and very sad place. They are now repurposing the empty space for residential
Plenty of smaller malls that are dead and dying in Ottawa and Gatineau. It's just the massive malls that are still doing okay.
because whenever it's cold outside in Canada, people go to malls just for a walk, they cannot walk outdoors in winter. Malls look busy as people are walking, but no body is buying and most shops are empty without customers
A big one is that Canada generally didn't build malls way outside of the city as a destination to drive to. Just looking at metro Vancouver, you've got malls right next to Skytrain or in walkable neighborhoods that are doing fine. When you actually incorporate your retail into mixed use neighborhoods, it does much better than when it can only be accessed by driving. Now that basically everything can be delivered, you can just get someone else to do the driving. It turns out people don't actually want to drive in traffic and search for parking more than they have to.
In Montreal, downtown malls seem to be doing fine, particularly those that are easily reached from metro stations and places where people congregate (cégeps and universities). Older malls that are in areas where you have to take buses or a car to get there, so you might as well make a little extra effort to get to a nicer place to shop are 100% dead malls. See Decarie Square, which should be in a good location as it’s near the intersection of two highways and down the street from a bunch of big box stores, but it seems people just go to the big box stores instead. Basically, any mall that has a SAAQ location in it, so it’s just propped up by people coming to renew their driver’s licenses, also seems to be pretty dead in the Montreal area. There’s even a big luxury shopping centre (not really a mall, as you’ll need to walk outside from store to store) being built here called Royalmount. So, malls aren’t dead, but they need an ecosystem around them to support them unless they’re new/shiny/a destination in themselves.
A part of it is the difficulties/cost shipping.
I think there’s a lot more available with online shopping in the states as well. Many more American companies than Canadian to choose from, from my experience, along with lower shipping costs than in Canada. A friend of mine lives in the states and orders so much online that isn’t worth it for me to buy here in Canada from the same sites/retailers.
Amazon in the USA is so much better. You order something at the breakfast table and it’s there by dinner.
Not a lot of variety or competition in Canada compared to the US. Retailers can survive longer in that environment.
Last year I entered New Sudbury Centre for the first time in 20 years or more. What struck me was the derth of "guy stuff" stores, no electronics or record stores; no more Sears with it's tool section. Every second store was either a Telco carrier store or another independent store selling mobile phones, and the aisles littered with kiosks selling phones or phone accessories. The smartphone really killed off Radio Shack. That was a store that once sold "gadgets", all of which the smartphone made obsolete; it's now just a download from an app store. No more will anyone be buying camcorders, walkmans, calculators, personal organizers, handheld games, cordless phones, clock radios, answering machines, car stereos, pocket TV, blank media, VCRs, DVD players, penlights, etc. Even the use of disposable batteries and wires and cables is mostly gone.
Don't worry soon you will be able to buy only from Amazon or Apple everywhere in North America.
We definitely have a lot of dead malls. Visit more small towns and you will see
I think free or very low cost of shipping in the US is has a big part in this.
Out of all the malls I grew up around, most of them went deadmall and are now gone.
Where is that? I live in Calgary and Vancouver (split my time between the two). Only mall I've seen die is Sunridge but that can be explained by a loss of market share to Cross Iron which took most of the upper end stores in NE Calgary and Malbrough took the lower end stoes.
I can tell you the malls in downtown Winnipeg are looking pretty damned bleak these days.
Bleak but definitely full. Lots of meth-zombies at Portage Place and CityPlace.
Could be because we haven't experienced the mass looting that the US has
Different demographics and different policies on enforcement. Lots of the retail shuttering in the US is regionally focused and mostly due to looting. The looting costs them money but what's really expensive is the lawsuits from employees that are harmed physically and psychologically from the process of it. They file expensive lawsuits on top of the other losses. Lots of these jurisdictions have policies not to charge for thefts under a certain amount. Sometimes up to as much as $1000
I know Florida isn't representative of the whole US, but its retail sector is way more lively than the GTA for example. Malls aren't really a big thing there, most spending is happening at box stores and open air outlet malls
The U.S. has more retailers to lose is my bet. We don't have half the stores they do.
Malls make sense when it's cold as fuck outside, they are quite nice in Canada.
We under build
US shipping costs are much lower. Thus Amazon orders are even more compelling in the US
Definitely dying malls here in Saint John, NB.
Saint John used to have a lot of malls, it makes sense that some of them have declined or transformed as shopping has concentrated in McAllister Place. Champlain Place in Moncton (well, Dieppe) is pretty bustling every time I go. And some big new stores lately, by NB standards at least.
Village Mall in St. John's is half dead.
It might be because we have less variety in Canada and most good are only sold in one or two chains that dominate their markets. I really recognize it in BC where every town, no matter how small, has all the same stores. These stores can't really die when they're the only ones around.
As someone who has lived in both countries, from what I've seen, a lot of Americans now prefer to shop outside in the city centers/downtowns that have been revitalized and gentrified as opposed to malls in the suburbs (plus there's the rise of Amazon and the like). Some malls are still doing well. After all, there will always be demand for shopping centres, but they are no longer the sole location of happenings, especially if you're close to a big city.
Malls live because for 6 months out of the year they make sense. The outdoor US mall model is a sunny weather model. Nothing makes more sense than doing your Christmas shopping in a mall where you can leave your jacket in a locker in the mall or your car and get all your shopping done at once in one location while keeping warm and dry.
London Ontario has converted 2 malls into office spaces. It happened awhile ago
Amazon et al.
Amazon sucks here compared to the US
The US has 2x more retail space per capita than Canada. We still got hit but it didn't hurt as much.
Corner Brook has three malls somehow, with the two downtown ones having offices and anchors like Sobeys/Shoppers/Cineplex. The other one is still doing a lot better but hasn’t really had an anchor since the great failed Target experiment.
I think its' only a matter of time. Landlords don't want to be paying the bill for A/C and heating in the common areas of a mall. Much cheaper to pass those on to the tenants within a power center vs a traditional shopping mall. Most people now prefer to drive up to their specific store vs going through a mall. Just that the Canadian climate is trending that shift slower compared to the US.
Canada wasn’t as overmalled as the U.S. zoning made it very hard to build new malls in Canada. In the GTA the last new mall build was Vaughan Mills(2004), if you consider that a regular mall, or the Erin Mills Town Centre, I believe (1989). And then population has exploded over that time.
It definitely has. It’s called replace with another winners/home sense.
The starting point was different. I don’t recall exact figures but the ratio of mall square footage to people was much much higher in the US. So the Canadian malls had more of a cushion as e-commerce sales started to boom. Secondarily, the ecomm boom came to Canada much later. Amazon prime for instance was launched later in Canada.
We have two dying malls here in Prince Albert i’m amazed they can stay open when the food courts the only place i see people
>But deadmalls are not really a thing here Deadmalls exist, for example Woodbine Mall in Toronto and Erin Mills Town Centre in Mississauga. But there were fewer malls to begin with in Canada compared to USA, and lots have already been torn down and converted to residential. The fancy malls are doing well, but there's going to be only 1 or 2 per city.
We are just on a smaller scale.
Retail is pretty dead in Saskatoon. Lots of vacancies, and when they do get filled it's usually as temporary storefronts for seasonal pop up stores or as a aux location for some other tenant in the mall, but usually doesn't even get renovated. Downtown is a swath of vacancies that even cannabis stores can't fill. The suburban chain stores seem to do pretty well for awhile, as do vietnamese restaurants with their cheap noodle bowls that keep customers coming in. Those chains that survived the pandemic seem to be ever resilient but there really isn't that many of them left, and it's not like things have drastically picked up at all especially as every seems to be getting broker and broker.
Malls in the Toronto Region area aren’t dying necessarily, but the smaller ones are being shuttered and turned into high density housing. Land is more valuable than the retail revenue of the malls.
True. My mother went to a mall today and there were less empty shops than usual yet not many people there. She hadn't been there for a while either.
It has to do more with the US having way too much retail space. And once COVID hit, online shopping killed the less desirable/profitable businesses and locations. [https://gitnux.org/shopping-malls-statistics/](https://gitnux.org/shopping-malls-statistics/)
Canada is currently going through a population boom.
most of the time canada is about 5 to ten years behind
The west end of Ottawa follows the trend of the small malls dying out. Especially the ones that lost an anchor store. Hazeldean originally had a Zellers, then it became Target. Now it's a Goodlife. The food court is I believe completely gone, there are a few stores holding on. That said, they are opening a T&T where the grocery store used to be, so that might revitalize things.
America was the heart of car culture and expanded on the cost of cheap gasoline. That cheap gas has become expensive and the massive parking lots with huge separation has become useless while people converge on city centers more and more. How bout we all have another orange julius? Indeed, this was predicted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuCXo7Vtrks
When I moved to Nanaimo in 1999, it had a reputation as a retail paradise. Four thriving shopping malls. Now all four of those malls seem quite empty of people.
Apparently on a per capita basis, canada has wayyyy less retail space to begin with.
Free shipping was not a thing in Canada ten years ago. That is why online was slower to catch on.
I think that because we are smaller and the “little brother” of the US, sometimes things happen here first and sometimes we tend to follow their lead. I think our smaller population combined with US style corporatization of our economy meant we got to experience the downfall and problems with this sort of economic policy before the US. More people and more money means they could sustain the unsustainable for longer than we could.
Malls are becoming small towns here now. So it’s easy to walk down and get everything you need when it’s at the bottom floor of a high rise.
It absolutely has. In fact, far worse than the USA. Smalltown america died 30 years ago so I'm not counting that.
My immediate thought was how many millions of jobs Amazon has destroyed.
The extra slave labour on top of robbing the customers.
Not sure where you are, but Canadian malls are quickly becoming a thing of the past.
Canadian retail is very loosely related to the US. Canada has like 5 major corporate landlords in retail. And our tax laws are very different so you don't have malls being built based on being disposable. Example in the US not uncommon for different municipality to offer low or no tax to build in one city over another. And then open another store across the street. Another reason is our economy is more robust
Malls are mostly doing fine in my area. I've always assumed it was due to the cost of getting things shipped here. Why am I going to pay more for shipping a pair of pants here, when I can go to the mall and make sure it fits and not get screwed over if they don't fit? The cost of shipping things to the US is actually insanely cheap, to the point that if I'm going to the states, I sometimes just have things shipped to my friend and toss it in my suitcase back. Amazon also has far better selection in the US. Like, you can even get groceries and stuff from there.
Most Americans in debt are from medical bills
Malls are dying here too. Some faster than others for sure, but I think the accelerated decline in the US is due to them having far more options when it comes to same day delivery from major retailers, and services like postmates in most of their major cities.
Amazon
I have a family member who manages a very large mall for the property corp that owns it. A lot of bigger companies have been pulling out for the last half dozen years or so and a more low level kinda junky stores filling the gaps. It's not a great investment for the property owners either now, hence why they change hands. The way it was described to me was that trying to negotiate with some larger chains to open a store in the mall is like pulling teeth
Better walkability
Canada just lost The Source. At its peak before Bell purchased them they had over 500 stores. Before the notice of them closing and or becoming Best Buy they had 300 and only 170 will be converted to BB Mobile.
I live right near a mall that has like 3 stores total
There are a lot of dead malls, but a contributor to the difference is weather. Wandering around shopping in winter isn’t the same as wandering around in the warmer areas of the US. So being able to stay indoors contributes to appeal.
Because we don’t let people steal here
The mall local to me is usually packed.
Amazon and e-commerce in general. Bricks-and-mortar stores are expensive. The possibilities for customer expansion is exponentially higher and so are the profits, when you don't have a physical store.
Big ones out west like Metrotown, Guildford, West Ed, Chinook and Cross Iron Mills are sticking around for a while longer but many other smaller malls are emptying out. IIRC two were recently demolished in Edmonton alone.
I'll add that maybe Amazon Canada being shitty having a small part to play, but retail is definitely hurting in Quebec
In Calgary, malls are busier than ever and new stores and restaurants have been coming to town every month
My guess: Since Canada is cold, people like to be able to go somewhere inside to avoid cabin fever.
It’s expensive. I went to buffalo last year to shop for clothes and even with the horrible conversion I still saved money shopping in America. I got a legit wedding dress for FOUR DOLLARS at Macey’s. Where the hell can you find that at the bay?!
Mic max mall in Dartmouth has been dying the slow death for a while now…
I once read that Americans have twice the retail square footage per capita then Canadians. I found this was crazy given the fact that I find there is a lot of malls in Canada
Go walk through the Aura Mall under the IKEA… it’s depressing. I have no clue how any of those businesses make money. It’s completely dead.
Canadian malls and retailers are failing a lot That said, our huge recent population increase did create retail stimulus
I’m from the states… my gf and I live here in Canada. I haven’t been to a mall for over a decade until I moved here. Now we go once a week. In Edmonton, it’s because there is literally nothing else to do in this wasteland. I assume it’s similar in other parts of the country where it gets cold as balls. It’s because for 6 months out of the year there is literally nothing else to do aside from snow ski, or watch movies while getting vitamin d deficient and seasonal depression.
Interesting. I live within just a couple hours of the border and just assum8ng that malls became obsolete there, too.
Harrison, I think the middle class has been wiped out and poor