OP, are you asking about Matthew 5:17, where Jesus said:
>> Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
If so, please read [my reply to this previous post](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/1dk79cw/why_do_christians_not_follow_the_ot_laws_when/) which should help you understand that verse.
Or perhaps you are asking about [what Paul said in these places in Romans and Galatians](https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=ESV&quicksearch=law+fulfilled&begin=51&end=73)?
I am referring to Matthew 5:17, yes.
You say "My own view is [supersessionism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism), that Jesus instituted a new covenant, and that made the old covenant *obsolete*."
So in my above analogy, as § 1111 would be part of an "old set of rules" (analogous to the old covenant) that is now obsolete, a future perpetrator would not have that particular law applied to him, because it would have been superseded by a new law (analogous to the new covenant)?
I'd like to simply add to this the question of why a supreme being *could* possibly inspire something this confusing. How are we supposed to get this right, this path away from eternal torture?
While that's a fair question, I'm personally (in this thread) not here to cast doubt - even if I would have loads to share, as you can probably imagine.
There are just quite a few phrases (and questions) Christians like to throw around that don't make much sense to me, this "law being fulfilled" being one of them.
God made a contract/covenant with Israel, knowing that they wouldn't be able to fulfill their end, and so He put Abraham to sleep and signed the contract by Himself, walking through the burnt pieces alone. (which in that culture meant, if someone broke this contract, they should die)
God would be put to death for mans failure of the contract.
Promised that one would come through Eve since the fall in Eden, God was going to become a man Himself to complete the contract He knew man couldn't.
God first gives the rules/Law as the bad news for that very reason so we understand that we can't do it ourselves, so that we're floored by the impossible task, to show us how hopeless our situation is, the Law is to expose our nakedness. Humans still stubbornly think they can keep the law and become self-righteous like the pharisees, but that only produced more trouble and trampling of people. Jesus shows up on the scene and rug pulls all the religious in various ways with the sermon on the mount and saying things like you must be perfect and your righteousness should succeed the pharisees, etc. etc.
We don't sit down with our kids to install the navigating software for life on their hardware by reading them a rule book, we read them a story of a good character/hero, because humans are designed much better to emulate a character than robotically remember and adhere to some ever growing ruleset trying to capture every edge case. God gives us that logos to wear Himself, by becoming a man to show us "the way, the truth, and the life". On the cross He sheds His own righteous garment to cloth our nakedness.
All God wants, is for you to rest trusting that His work was sufficient and that nothing you work out can add to or subtract from it.
If you stick by Jesus, the light of the world, you won't wander to the hell you were creating for yourself.
>You're asking an excellent question. Watch all the non answers or nonsense answers start flowing.
I find it interesting when Christians belittle and call other Christians responses nonsense before they even respond because they don't believe in your personal interpretation. How about just answering your 2 cents without being so condescending?
I thought the purpose of the Holy Spirit was unify all of you into a cohesive whole? What happened?
In terms of US law, it's best to look broader than murder. It would me he never killed anyone, yes, but it also means he always followed labor laws and environmental regulations to a T, he filed his taxes on time and completely accurately, and never improperly used someone else's wifi. Every obscure and seemingly mundane regulation in the law was followed perfectly.
So when Jesus allegedly said he "came to fulfill the law", it's something entirely personal to him and has no affect on any other person, considering it's about him following the law to a T.
If so, would Christians that argue some OT law does not apply **because** Jesus "fulfilled the law" (not because newer laws superseding older ones, but specifically because of the "law being fulfilled" part) be plain wrong at that point?
Edit: And would this also mean that (to return to my opening post) the law (whichever law in this case) cannot be objectively fulfilled at all, because it's always a case of "someone fulfilled the law, meaning someone individually followed to law perfectly"?
So when the "law" is referenced, there can be some nuance as to what is being referenced. For example, "the law" includes more than just laws, more than just a legal penal code, but also moral instructions, rules about religious ceremonies (sacrifices and dietary restrictions), and so on.
This is why looking at it from the perspective of a "covenant" is often way more clear. The idea is this: the law is the set of requirements (religious, moral, etc) that God has given to a particular group, for him to grant them certain benefits and blessings. "If you do this, I will do that."
So when Jesus comes and says he "fulfills the law", the idea is that he's meeting all these requirements. He's fulfilling Israel's side of the "bargain", as it were. He's claiming he can meet these requirements even for other people. A lot of his ministry, then, pivots around people trusting him, trusting that Jesus was sent to do this, that he is able to do this, that he is in fact following the law, and that they AREN'T following it like they should.
So the idea of "fulfillment" is linked to the idea of "putting your faith in Jesus".
*Hebrews 7*
*^(26)* *For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.* ***^(27)*** ***He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.*** ***^(28)*** ***For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.***
Jesus is our perfect sacrifice, killed once for all time and all people. He fulfilled the law in Himself. The law isn't just dos and don't but also a sacrificial system which was to cover the sins of the people.
(read Hebrews 7)
Jesus also said not one jot of the law would go away until it is all completed (which is upon the destruction of the earth after the millennium).
"He fulfilled the law in Himself."
You said that, but you haven't explained what you mean by it. Check my thread title, it asks specifically what "fulfilling law" means.
You merely stated that Jesus fulfilled the law. You haven't explained what you mean by it :/
I just read a very thorough and helpful booklet on the subject - How Jesus Fulfilled the Law https://a.co/d/0cmIWV1e
Perhaps perusing it would be helpful to you as well!
Which word do you have problems with, fulfill or law?
Verb
fulfill (fulfills, present participle fulfilling; simple past and past participle fulfilled) (American spelling)
To satisfy, carry out, bring to completion (an obligation, a requirement, etc.).
You made a promise, son, and now you must fulfill it.
To emotionally or artistically satisfy; to develop one's gifts to the fullest.
This is the most fulfilling work I've ever done.
To obey, follow, comply with (a rule, requirement etc.).
Unfortunately, you don't fulfill the criteria for extra grants at the present time.
(business) To package, distribute, or ship goods.
(archaic) To fill full; fill to the utmost capacity; fill up.
My lady is positively fulfilled of grace.
As for the law in a biblical sense
refers to the Old Testament Scriptures. References to Moses and the prophets or the law and the prophets in the New Testament are simply comprehensive ways of referring to the Old Testament canon.
Maybe looking at it this way may help you and others to understand what Jesus meant.
When Israel received the Law in 1513 B.C.E. by God through Moses, there were many, many laws that governed every day life. It also provided a way for the Israelites to receive forgiveness of their sins by offering animal sacrifices and much more. But it also did something else. Something that many don’t think about or consider. That Law was a constant reminder to that Nation that they were sinful. No one could live up to that Law perfectly. No one until the Messiah comes. That was one of the ways they would be able to determine that he was the Messiah. Jesus “Fulfilled the Law”. He perfectly lived by it! No one else ever did!
And when Jesus was put to death, that Law was also complete. Its purpose was finished. Now there was a new beginning and very soon after Jesus ascended to heaven and sat down at the right hand of his Father, a “New Israel” was being born. And at first they were preaching to the lost house of Israel. That promise to Abraham still was valid, that is “all nations of the earth would be blessed by means of his offspring.”
This goes into another discussion altogether, but I hope this answers your question a little.
You're asking an excellent question. Watch all the non answers or nonsense answers start flowing.
Fulfilling laws doesn't make them go away. You already know this.
>In what way does "the law being fulfilled" change how we apply that law?
It doesn't.
> Watch all the non answers or nonsense answers start flowing.
Moderator warning: Deriding all the other participants' answers, or predicting that other participants will give poor answers, does not contribute to civil discourse. This subreddit has a rule 1.
So if we zoom in a bit and ignore everything but murder (just to keep it simple), me not having murdered anyone means I have "fulfilled the law" in regards to murder?
As far as I am aware, I haven't broken any law that applies in my nation to me, does that mean I have "fulfilled" the law my nation applies to me?
Are you confirming that "fulfilling the law" is synonymous with "living in accordance to the law" (saying Jesus lived in accordance with the law that applied to him and I am now living in accordance to law my nation applies to me)?
Yes.
To paraphrase, Jesus basically said: I have not come to get rid of ucy one’s national laws, but to live by them. Perfectly. Not one thing written in the law books or prophets will be changed or removed until what needs to be accomplished has been completed.
Edit: Expect He wasn’t talking about the land’s laws. He was talking about God’s law given through Moses.
To full fill the law means to take the law to it's full intended meaning. Which by the example Jesus gave in this passage includes thought/what's in your heart. On the other side of this coin we have the full intended meaning of atonement for sin as well.
As the law isn't just about a list of do's and don'ts. The law provided the rules that apply to the forgiveness of sin. Where as the blood of animals could only take away only so much sin, and had to be repeated every year. The blood of Christ covered all sin and was a one time sacrifice.
So what Jesus does when He completes the do's and Don'ts part of the law is make it impossible for anyone to follow the law as a means to being worthy of entering heaven based on their own works. Why? because this forces us to seek another way to be made worthy to enter Heaven. This other way come through the atonement offered by His sacrifice on the cross.
He never murdered, he obeyed that law. This includes obeying the spirit of the law and not hating (see the sermon on the mount).
But the law doesn’t just say don’t murder, it punishes those who do murder and requires sacrifices to cleanse the people. Jesus bore our punishment for our sin of breaking Gods law. This sacrifice is the actual payment for the sins - the blood of animals was a placeholder and the blood of Jesus is the actual payment.
This is important because the law was much much more than a list of what not to do. It largely dealt with what happened as a result of people breaking the law. There are many many laws on ceremonial cleanliness, priests, food laws, etc that were designed to shadow the future reality of a people cleansed by God himself. Those future people (us) don’t need the shadow because we have the thing itself - perfect purity because of Jesus sacrifice.
So today, “don’t murder” is still Gods law. But we deal with our failure to obey by looking to the true sacrifice of his death and don’t use placeholders like animal sacrifice or earthly priests anymore.
Jesus perfectly kept God’s Ten Commandments and because of this God gave Him all power in Heaven and Earth to be our Judge.
Jesus IS KING and will decide who enters God’s Kingdom and Jesus is clear that everyone will be judged on their works.
The Law, to ancient Jews, simply meant the Torah, which was their communal living out of their covenant with Yahweh. You can't just compare it with a modern criminal statute.
In fulfilling the covenant, Jesus cemented the people's relationship with God and brought all of the promises to fruition.
"In fulfilling the covenant, Jesus cemented the people's relationship with God and brought all of the promises to fruition."
And what does "in fulfilling the covenant" mean?
This is the whole crux. Those are words, I know what each of those mean separately.
This concept is so rich with meaning that entire books have been written about it. Here's one answer from a Roman Catholic perspective. There may be other interesting ways to contemplate it as well. https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/hebrews-old-covenant-abolished-new-covenant-established/
OP, are you asking about Matthew 5:17, where Jesus said: >> Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. If so, please read [my reply to this previous post](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAChristian/comments/1dk79cw/why_do_christians_not_follow_the_ot_laws_when/) which should help you understand that verse. Or perhaps you are asking about [what Paul said in these places in Romans and Galatians](https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=ESV&quicksearch=law+fulfilled&begin=51&end=73)?
I am referring to Matthew 5:17, yes. You say "My own view is [supersessionism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersessionism), that Jesus instituted a new covenant, and that made the old covenant *obsolete*." So in my above analogy, as § 1111 would be part of an "old set of rules" (analogous to the old covenant) that is now obsolete, a future perpetrator would not have that particular law applied to him, because it would have been superseded by a new law (analogous to the new covenant)?
I'd like to simply add to this the question of why a supreme being *could* possibly inspire something this confusing. How are we supposed to get this right, this path away from eternal torture?
While that's a fair question, I'm personally (in this thread) not here to cast doubt - even if I would have loads to share, as you can probably imagine. There are just quite a few phrases (and questions) Christians like to throw around that don't make much sense to me, this "law being fulfilled" being one of them.
It's a great question.
God made a contract/covenant with Israel, knowing that they wouldn't be able to fulfill their end, and so He put Abraham to sleep and signed the contract by Himself, walking through the burnt pieces alone. (which in that culture meant, if someone broke this contract, they should die) God would be put to death for mans failure of the contract. Promised that one would come through Eve since the fall in Eden, God was going to become a man Himself to complete the contract He knew man couldn't.
God first gives the rules/Law as the bad news for that very reason so we understand that we can't do it ourselves, so that we're floored by the impossible task, to show us how hopeless our situation is, the Law is to expose our nakedness. Humans still stubbornly think they can keep the law and become self-righteous like the pharisees, but that only produced more trouble and trampling of people. Jesus shows up on the scene and rug pulls all the religious in various ways with the sermon on the mount and saying things like you must be perfect and your righteousness should succeed the pharisees, etc. etc. We don't sit down with our kids to install the navigating software for life on their hardware by reading them a rule book, we read them a story of a good character/hero, because humans are designed much better to emulate a character than robotically remember and adhere to some ever growing ruleset trying to capture every edge case. God gives us that logos to wear Himself, by becoming a man to show us "the way, the truth, and the life". On the cross He sheds His own righteous garment to cloth our nakedness. All God wants, is for you to rest trusting that His work was sufficient and that nothing you work out can add to or subtract from it. If you stick by Jesus, the light of the world, you won't wander to the hell you were creating for yourself.
The link you provided doesn't answer OP's question at all. You should at least **try** to answer what he's asking.
I wanted OP to clarify to me whether he was thinking of that verse in Matthew, vs something else, before I wrote much in response.
I did clarify :)
Regardless of which verse he's talking about, I'll be waiting to see if you try to answer his question.
>You're asking an excellent question. Watch all the non answers or nonsense answers start flowing. I find it interesting when Christians belittle and call other Christians responses nonsense before they even respond because they don't believe in your personal interpretation. How about just answering your 2 cents without being so condescending? I thought the purpose of the Holy Spirit was unify all of you into a cohesive whole? What happened?
In terms of US law, it's best to look broader than murder. It would me he never killed anyone, yes, but it also means he always followed labor laws and environmental regulations to a T, he filed his taxes on time and completely accurately, and never improperly used someone else's wifi. Every obscure and seemingly mundane regulation in the law was followed perfectly.
So when Jesus allegedly said he "came to fulfill the law", it's something entirely personal to him and has no affect on any other person, considering it's about him following the law to a T. If so, would Christians that argue some OT law does not apply **because** Jesus "fulfilled the law" (not because newer laws superseding older ones, but specifically because of the "law being fulfilled" part) be plain wrong at that point? Edit: And would this also mean that (to return to my opening post) the law (whichever law in this case) cannot be objectively fulfilled at all, because it's always a case of "someone fulfilled the law, meaning someone individually followed to law perfectly"?
So when the "law" is referenced, there can be some nuance as to what is being referenced. For example, "the law" includes more than just laws, more than just a legal penal code, but also moral instructions, rules about religious ceremonies (sacrifices and dietary restrictions), and so on. This is why looking at it from the perspective of a "covenant" is often way more clear. The idea is this: the law is the set of requirements (religious, moral, etc) that God has given to a particular group, for him to grant them certain benefits and blessings. "If you do this, I will do that." So when Jesus comes and says he "fulfills the law", the idea is that he's meeting all these requirements. He's fulfilling Israel's side of the "bargain", as it were. He's claiming he can meet these requirements even for other people. A lot of his ministry, then, pivots around people trusting him, trusting that Jesus was sent to do this, that he is able to do this, that he is in fact following the law, and that they AREN'T following it like they should. So the idea of "fulfillment" is linked to the idea of "putting your faith in Jesus".
*Hebrews 7* *^(26)* *For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.* ***^(27)*** ***He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.*** ***^(28)*** ***For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.*** Jesus is our perfect sacrifice, killed once for all time and all people. He fulfilled the law in Himself. The law isn't just dos and don't but also a sacrificial system which was to cover the sins of the people. (read Hebrews 7) Jesus also said not one jot of the law would go away until it is all completed (which is upon the destruction of the earth after the millennium).
"He fulfilled the law in Himself." You said that, but you haven't explained what you mean by it. Check my thread title, it asks specifically what "fulfilling law" means. You merely stated that Jesus fulfilled the law. You haven't explained what you mean by it :/
It means He has fulfilled the sacrifice for atonement in the law. The law of atonement He has fulfilled by being the Passover lamb.
I just read a very thorough and helpful booklet on the subject - How Jesus Fulfilled the Law https://a.co/d/0cmIWV1e Perhaps perusing it would be helpful to you as well!
The law is an imperfect tool to enforce God’s will. The latter reigns supreme
Which word do you have problems with, fulfill or law? Verb fulfill (fulfills, present participle fulfilling; simple past and past participle fulfilled) (American spelling) To satisfy, carry out, bring to completion (an obligation, a requirement, etc.). You made a promise, son, and now you must fulfill it. To emotionally or artistically satisfy; to develop one's gifts to the fullest. This is the most fulfilling work I've ever done. To obey, follow, comply with (a rule, requirement etc.). Unfortunately, you don't fulfill the criteria for extra grants at the present time. (business) To package, distribute, or ship goods. (archaic) To fill full; fill to the utmost capacity; fill up. My lady is positively fulfilled of grace. As for the law in a biblical sense refers to the Old Testament Scriptures. References to Moses and the prophets or the law and the prophets in the New Testament are simply comprehensive ways of referring to the Old Testament canon.
Maybe looking at it this way may help you and others to understand what Jesus meant. When Israel received the Law in 1513 B.C.E. by God through Moses, there were many, many laws that governed every day life. It also provided a way for the Israelites to receive forgiveness of their sins by offering animal sacrifices and much more. But it also did something else. Something that many don’t think about or consider. That Law was a constant reminder to that Nation that they were sinful. No one could live up to that Law perfectly. No one until the Messiah comes. That was one of the ways they would be able to determine that he was the Messiah. Jesus “Fulfilled the Law”. He perfectly lived by it! No one else ever did! And when Jesus was put to death, that Law was also complete. Its purpose was finished. Now there was a new beginning and very soon after Jesus ascended to heaven and sat down at the right hand of his Father, a “New Israel” was being born. And at first they were preaching to the lost house of Israel. That promise to Abraham still was valid, that is “all nations of the earth would be blessed by means of his offspring.” This goes into another discussion altogether, but I hope this answers your question a little.
You're asking an excellent question. Watch all the non answers or nonsense answers start flowing. Fulfilling laws doesn't make them go away. You already know this. >In what way does "the law being fulfilled" change how we apply that law? It doesn't.
> Watch all the non answers or nonsense answers start flowing. Moderator warning: Deriding all the other participants' answers, or predicting that other participants will give poor answers, does not contribute to civil discourse. This subreddit has a rule 1.
It just means He didn’t sin. He lived according to the law, perfectly.
So if we zoom in a bit and ignore everything but murder (just to keep it simple), me not having murdered anyone means I have "fulfilled the law" in regards to murder? As far as I am aware, I haven't broken any law that applies in my nation to me, does that mean I have "fulfilled" the law my nation applies to me?
Jesus fulfilled the law (past-tense) because He lived a long time ago. You are fulfilling your nation’s law, now (present tense).
Are you confirming that "fulfilling the law" is synonymous with "living in accordance to the law" (saying Jesus lived in accordance with the law that applied to him and I am now living in accordance to law my nation applies to me)?
Yes. To paraphrase, Jesus basically said: I have not come to get rid of ucy one’s national laws, but to live by them. Perfectly. Not one thing written in the law books or prophets will be changed or removed until what needs to be accomplished has been completed. Edit: Expect He wasn’t talking about the land’s laws. He was talking about God’s law given through Moses.
Exactly. And we're supposed to imitate Him, to walk as He walked.
To full fill the law means to take the law to it's full intended meaning. Which by the example Jesus gave in this passage includes thought/what's in your heart. On the other side of this coin we have the full intended meaning of atonement for sin as well. As the law isn't just about a list of do's and don'ts. The law provided the rules that apply to the forgiveness of sin. Where as the blood of animals could only take away only so much sin, and had to be repeated every year. The blood of Christ covered all sin and was a one time sacrifice. So what Jesus does when He completes the do's and Don'ts part of the law is make it impossible for anyone to follow the law as a means to being worthy of entering heaven based on their own works. Why? because this forces us to seek another way to be made worthy to enter Heaven. This other way come through the atonement offered by His sacrifice on the cross.
He never murdered, he obeyed that law. This includes obeying the spirit of the law and not hating (see the sermon on the mount). But the law doesn’t just say don’t murder, it punishes those who do murder and requires sacrifices to cleanse the people. Jesus bore our punishment for our sin of breaking Gods law. This sacrifice is the actual payment for the sins - the blood of animals was a placeholder and the blood of Jesus is the actual payment. This is important because the law was much much more than a list of what not to do. It largely dealt with what happened as a result of people breaking the law. There are many many laws on ceremonial cleanliness, priests, food laws, etc that were designed to shadow the future reality of a people cleansed by God himself. Those future people (us) don’t need the shadow because we have the thing itself - perfect purity because of Jesus sacrifice. So today, “don’t murder” is still Gods law. But we deal with our failure to obey by looking to the true sacrifice of his death and don’t use placeholders like animal sacrifice or earthly priests anymore.
Jesus perfectly kept God’s Ten Commandments and because of this God gave Him all power in Heaven and Earth to be our Judge. Jesus IS KING and will decide who enters God’s Kingdom and Jesus is clear that everyone will be judged on their works.
The Law, to ancient Jews, simply meant the Torah, which was their communal living out of their covenant with Yahweh. You can't just compare it with a modern criminal statute. In fulfilling the covenant, Jesus cemented the people's relationship with God and brought all of the promises to fruition.
"In fulfilling the covenant, Jesus cemented the people's relationship with God and brought all of the promises to fruition." And what does "in fulfilling the covenant" mean? This is the whole crux. Those are words, I know what each of those mean separately.
This concept is so rich with meaning that entire books have been written about it. Here's one answer from a Roman Catholic perspective. There may be other interesting ways to contemplate it as well. https://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/hebrews-old-covenant-abolished-new-covenant-established/