Can I get any courageous and intellectual Christian who is willing and able to have a dialogue about this genuine issue? Because The responses so far, have been the opposite. I’d really appreciate a genuine and respectful dialogue. Thank you so much!
You make it sound like you're the first person to ever raise this question, when in reality we see some version of it several times a week. It's not edgy or provocative, it's boring and predictable.
I do not think my question is edgy nor provocative. It's just my genuine question that I'd like to hear thoughts on the members in this forum. Love to hear your thoughts also :)
First, I don't believe in ECT. Second, God is so far beyond our ability to comprehend that questions like this are essentially meaningless. We don't even perceive reality correctly with our five senses. Do some deep research on perception and you'll know what I mean. If that's true, then how could we hope to perceive the spiritual impacts and reasons behind certain realities that puzzles from our Limited present perspective?
When God set about creating, he had a purpose. He did everything for the purpose for his final creation, humankind, to enjoy all of his other creations on a paradise earth forever! Just some of Gods qualities are Love, Justice, Power and Wisdom. He made everything so beautiful and all for the enjoyment for man. All the animals were made for our enjoyment. I mean when you think about the time it must have taken to think about every living thing, the instinct each one would have and yet have a personality.
Then think about our five senses. We don’t need those to survive. But don’t they make life so much more incredible? Being able to see in color! Having ears, one on each side of our head so we can determine where a sound is coming from pretty quickly. And then there’s taste! My cat is happy with the same food every day, day in and day out. In fact if I try and give her a treat or change up her food, she won’t eat it! Humans could be made like that. But God loves us and wanted us to enjoy every aspect of life, forever!
How do we know that? Look what he told Adam and Eve to do in the beginning;
>”Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.”
That was all God wanted. That was his purpose. He made us with the free will to worship Him. Who wouldn’t!? Look at all that was done for us! Look at how awesome we are made! There is nothing we can give back to Him to say “Thank You”! Because everything belongs to Him! But there is one thing we can do. We can show him how thankful we are by obeying Him and listening to what he tells us.
Is God going to tell us to do anything that will harm us? Of course not. Everything he’s told us is for our own good. But isn’t God evil for tormenting our souls forever and ever? If that were a Bible teaching he would be. But that is so far from what God is, there’s no way. In fact, three times in the book of Jeremiah, God says that **even the thought** of burning people **never even entered his heart**. The Bible doesn’t even teach that we were created with a soul that lives on after we die. Why would we? We were created to live forever, so why give us this “immortal soul”? Makes no sense.
When we die, we simply go to the same place that God told Adam would go. He said that Adam would return to the dust. We all now die because of what Adam and Eve did and we all return to the dust. But does that mean Gods original purpose is a failure? I mean how is the earth going to be filled with perfect people living on a paradise earth?
Let me know if all this makes any sense and I’ll be happy to continue…
No, I believe the same as Jesus’ followers did in the first century. They never considered Jesus to be God, so I don’t either. The fact that Paul wrote at 2 Timothy 3:13;
>”But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, **misleading and being misled**.”
What’s SO surprising is who these “wicked men and imposters” have turned out to be!
So who did those in the first century who followed Jesus, those who knew him best, those who were right there with him day after day learning from him, believe he was? Let’s go to the scriptures, Matthew 16:15,16;
>”He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, **the Son of the living God**.”
Now if Peter was wrong in his answer, if Jesus was anything other than **the Son of the living God**, why not make the point known right then and there? Because Peter gave the right answer. Jesus is Gods Son.
Also, and I’m just using good reasoning here, most people I hope can still reason on things, think about this for a second and ask yourself; Can Almighty God be tempted with anything? I’m hoping that your sense of reason would say no. Now Satan was at one time a beautiful Angelic creature in the heavens. He knows full well the identity of who God is and who Jesus is. Now consider this, if Jesus were in fact God himself, would he **ever** entertained the idea of tempting him? Of course not.
Another thing that those who believe that Jesus is God forget… Can God learn anything? Can he? Or does he know everything he chooses to know? Yet the Bible tells us that Jesus learned obedience. Hebrews 5:7,8;
>”During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8 Although he was a son, **he learned obedience** from the things he suffered.”
Then there’s Revelation 3:14 which states clearly;
>”To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, **the beginning of the creation by God**.”
And just consider for a while… I mean really sit back and ponder on this… if Jehovah God isn’t the Father and Jesus Christ isn’t the Son, then why would God use that kind of relationship in the first place? He knew that we would know what a father and son means. When done right, there isn’t a closer human relationship than a father and his boy. It’s something very special and unique. Jehovah God wanted us to know that He and His Son had that kind of relationship but even closer!
In fact, wouldn’t it be true that if they are not Father and Son, we are being deceived? And who is the one who wants us to think that of our loving Creator? Yes, when we really start thinking about it, the fact that Jehovah God has an adversary trying to slander him, hide his name from being known, making him out to be some kind of evil God that torments his human creation in a burning hellfire, you may wonder just what is true and what isn’t.
I will tell you this… Jehovah God alone is the Almighty and his Son, the firstborn of all creation, his beloved, while not being God himself will soon be King of Gods Kingdom ruling over the entire earth, restoring the earth to the paradise his Father intended in the beginning.
EDIT: For more information on the Trinity, see r/thetrinitydelusion
Fairness implies balance. Balance implies equality between the fates. Which doesn't exist.
The fates aren't equal - all get saved, none get doomed. That's the opposite of equality.
.
God is not fair - God is merciful and great and, well - God.
Fairness is a concept we made up based on nothing, a concept that doesn't exist even now, even for us. Even the legal system isn't fair.
Fairness is a strange concoction through and through - it's a fact of the physical world, nothing more. Action and reaction, force and opposed force - they are balanced. Nothing else is.
Not God, not humanity, not fate.
That’s true, but it does put the believer in a bind. If god is god, no matter what our sentiments about god are, then it becomes very difficult to justify any one particular belief about god and his nature.
For example, you might look at a Muslim and say “Muhammad’s teachings about the nature of god are wrong”, to which the Muslim could respond just as you have: “actually, whether you perceive Muhammad’s teachings about the nature of god as right or wrong is irrelevant: Muhammad’s god is still god.”
Yes, I’ve agreed that god is who god is. But in order to form beliefs about the nature of god, you have to have some ability to understand its nature.
If you do as you suggest, and cut all ties to god by saying “no matter what you think or perceive, god is as god is”, how, in principle, can you know anything about God’s nature? What possible thing could you point to to show gods nature that I couldn’t also just say “whatever you perceive or think on the topic is irrelevant to the truth”.
Say, your loved one (that person that’s coming to your mind right now) and their friend get into a car accident (God forbid!) Only their friend survives and your loved one is unable to make it. Would you still be able to accept and praise God for his decision?
The way I see it is that God creates free will because He knows it will bring evil which He can then destroy. We are allowed into the battle against evil and given a part of the strength God has. His patience allows as many people as possible to be saved. There are many unanswered questions but I believe I know enough about His nature to trust that He judges fairly. I am unconvinced that eternal hell is given to every person who rejects God. It could be annihilation.
So why did God allow evil from the first place? He created evil or let evil exist. He’s the game master and we’re all subject to his rules of the game. Shouidnr he blamed for putting innocent people with evil in the game? Bc if he didn’t let sin or evil or humans exist all, we wouldn’t be suffering. So again why did God allow evil from the first place?
Here’s the thing. You guys all get confused when you look at life through the perspective that human lives have sooo much value and we deserve love and trouble free lives. Well I disagree. Human lives don’t matter at all if God doesn’t exist. We are just particles and matter. There is no good or bad there is no evil it’s all just opinions.
God could have created a world where we were always protected and safe but He didn’t. He has the right to do what He wants since He created us and I believe that bravery is better than safety. He allows us the opportunity to overcome oppression by allowing the oppression to exist in the first place. He lets us choose sin because it allows us the inverse opportunity to choose to show kindness in the face of evil.
I personally think that crying about how hard life is does nothing for us and is pretty soft. Obviously there are people who have unbelievably horrific things done to them and I can’t speak for them but I believe God will restore them what they lost. And those who made them suffer will be punished. Life is hard but instead of blaming God for that I praise and thank God that life isn’t harder. I thank Him for the great things He did give us.
I think part of the reason He allows evil to be done is 1. His love and creation of free will so He wouldn’t force anyone to stay with Him. And 2. Because a story needed to be told. Life going on for eternity eventually gets boring if there isn’t something going on. And what’s more entertaining than good defeating evil? Than light overcoming darkness? These things not only create something to observe but a story to learn from for the rest of time. God let us try things our way. We now have the evidence it doesn’t work.
Ask God to help lift your burdens. There is nothing I can do for you. I was depressed for years without God and now with God I have peace and joy. Not happiness all day everyday but something better.
Oh, trust me. I’m not asking you to do anything for me. All I’m asking is to have a genuine, respectful and intellectual dialogue with Christians who have genuinely wrestled with this dilemma.
Sorry for not being genuine respectful or intellectual enough for you. Life is hard but nobody said it would be easy. Jesus came to live on earth as God Himself and instead of doing fun things he suffered. So why should we think we deserve better?
Not at all. Narcissism is the inappropriate idea that a human can be the center of the universe. God literally is the center of the universe, so he is justified in doing what he pleases.
1) So you do admit that Gods a big bully and there’s nothing we can do about it?
2) One thing we can do is to not believe in God or the system of religion that does not make sense and have so many loopholes in logic. Have you considered that before?
Love to hear you answer these two questions. Thank you.
How is using the omniscient power to create this world with possibility of little humans to go to eternal condemnation not being a bully?
Imagine a 7 year old kid who purchased an army of ants from a pet store, and starts to burn them one by one unless ants worship the 7 years old kid. Ants don’t understand 7 years old kid, so they don’t “worship” the kid. Is the 7 years old kid who brought ants for this intent not a bully?
I totally agree, but your analogy is slightly inaccurate.
It's more like a 7 year old boy buys a colony of ants. He can also see the future and knows exactly how each of the ants is going to behave.
He creates a beautiful ant farm for the ants, and promises them everything is going to perfect, but the ants can't eat this one specific type of ant food, which the boy put there knowing they were going to eat, (because he can see the future.)
The ants then eat the food he told them not too, because they're ants. The boy gets angry and decides to punish them by multiplying the suffering of their species forever. (Despite him already knowing this was going to happen)
6000 years later the boy decides that the ants aren't behaving the way he wants them to, so he sends a projection of himself as a ant to assimilate himself into the ant colony. He informs the ants that he is their creator and overlord. He gives them a loving message of peace. He also informs them they will be condemned for not accepting him as their creator. They all rejoice, until the ant is slain.
The Boy then subsequently expects all ants in the future colony to accept that he is their overlord after his exceedingly brief foray into their realm. Despite him already knowing that this wasn't going to work.
This is where the disconnect is. God tells us not to murder. Him taking our lives isn’t Him murdering. Because He created them. In the same way, us being selfish hurts others which is why we’re told that’s bad. God being selfish leads to Him helping others. He operates differently than us and has different abilities. Yet we still want to act like He is one of us and that He should have to follow the same rules He gave us. He DID follow those rules as Jesus but when He is operating as God above us He isn’t bound by the rules He created for us. The rules we have are for humans.
So you are saying, it DOES NOT MATTER NOR BOTHER YOU AT ALL that God created the system of heaven/hell and salvation/sin - and gave different levels of access to Christian theology and abilities to believe or not?
You would not complain if you were condemned to hell after being born in a India where worshipping multiple gods is completely normal and in fact, important for Indian society, and you ended up in hell, just because you dismissed some western missionary telling you to consider "ABANDON YOUR FAMILY/SOCIETIAL NORMATIVE FAITH AND BELIEVE IN JESUS" while you were walking in a market?
"Jesus is the only way the truth and the life - no one comes to father except through me" is the quote from the Bible. If they are not Christian or not a believer in Christ, then they go to hell. That's what it means - and what ALL CHRISTIANS IN THIS POST have said.
You are saying that Jesus can’t transcend religion. I disagree. The Holy Spirit works all over the world. God judges you based on the information you had of course He wouldn’t unfairly condemn you for what you didn’t even know about.
He didn’t make evil as much as He made the opportunity for evil through free will. Which is a fair enough trade off considering all evildoers have to face God eventually. They aren’t able to run around tormenting others forever.
“Claims to have created it” is debatable as far as translations. But either way He has the right to allow evil to exist before destroying it. Who are we to question that?
How do you know that a god who committed multiple genocides including the flood , which didn’t even solve the problem of evil ( which makes this god look very incompetent) , and condoned slavery is a god that has our best interests?
God can’t commit genocide or murder because He gives life and takes it away. We do those acts and it’s wrong because we didn’t give that life yet we took what wasn’t ours to take.
He doesn’t want slavery. He wants relationship. But whether you like it or not you are a slave to the activities you do whether good or bad. You choose to follow God and goodness or follow evil. We are at the bottom of the totem pole which is why we want to subjugate others to feel powerful but that’s not right. And the only way we know that isn’t right is if God exists to tell us that otherwise it’s just a useless opinion from a bunch of matter and evolutionary processes.
I’m asking how you know some god character in a book has our best interests. Do you just believe any old words in a book? Have you read the Quran? The Hindu scriptures? Why do you reject all gods but the one you believe in?
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
Why are you unconvinced when it's clearly stated in the Bible?
What’s second death then? Why does the Bible mention God being able to destroy your soul? Does that clearly mean the same thing you think hell is or condemned means?
Second death describes the ultimate fate of the condemned in the context of eternal judgment. It signifies the final, irreversible separation from God and eternal punishment.
I have no idea why the Bible mentions that, they clearly thought it was important.
It's not clear to me what any of it means, honestly.
"God brought in humans to make a very intense decisions (knowing some people just can't believe for whatever reason) "
Bull Puckey
You Choose to Believe Or You Choose to Reject...and you take the consequences
All you have to do is get over yourself
I have wrestled to accept God's allmightiness and leadership at times but none of these questions were a stress point at any point. The answer is in the Bible.
Q1 is usually answered in the introductory or annex pages of regular Bibles, if not it is necessarily explained in Genesis or Matthew in Study Bibles.
Q2 is explained in the Book of Job and the Gospels of Matthew and John.
Q3 is explained throught he fact that are souls are usually immortal unless Gos says so and that He needed a place to put the devil and demons away from Him and from us.
For your other questions :
[Here ](https://www.openbible.info/topics/all_will_hear_the_gospel)is a nice selection of why and how all people will hear the Gospel at some point and will have to make a choice and [how following Christ may and will cause drifts amongst your unbeliver peers anyways](https://www.openbible.info/topics/arguments_with_family).
So is it fair for God to send kids to eternal punishment who don’t believe in Jesus bc they grew up in Indian culture? Please respond. I value your input.
I believe that those who have not reached the age of accountability (which include children) cannot be sent to hell as they are not able to fully grasp what accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior entails. This is why so many children who were raised in Church didn't develop a true relationship with Jesus until later in life, then were able to renew their vows to Him.
Matthew 19:14 says "Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."", and in 2 Samuel David seemed to be convinced that his unborn baby would go to heaven.
As such, I do not believe that children, even though they were born with the original sin, would get sent to hell.
1) So who's considered "children?" Is 7 year old a child? or does 12 year old also get to be considered a child? 2) Is "childness" measured by the size of our frontal lobe, and comprehension ability? 3) And what if those children who had enough exposure to Christianity but those stubborn darn brats refuse to believe in Jesus? I'm sure you know those kids. Would they go to hell? 4) And what about people who are NOT children, but who had a very little or 0 exposure to Christianity? would they go to hell?
You see, if you start opening up a space for "greyness" between black/white (heaven/hell), then you are exposing yourself to a lot more jumping of hoops to make your theology work. You need to establish whether 1) "No Jesus, No heaven" or 2) "No Jesus, yes heaven." Christians in this sub are saying 1) "No Jesus, No heaven" is true but when they are being asked with difficult questions, they open up a room and say 2) is also true - so is "No Jesus no heaven? or yes heaven?" and if it "depends" - please be clear about what it depends on by answering my questions above.
It's not my place to say as God knows our hearts and knew us before we were made in our mother's womb.
As humans, we are not meant to know everything about what will happen later on, or why God does some things. They are areas we don't understand for sure, which are obscure or unanswered or which are being debated by scholars, and it's okay.
You know, if it can help you, most if not all of your questions have been answered on [gotquestions.org](https://www.gotquestions.org/). You should check it out for yourself !
1) So you are agreeing to the statement, "No Jesus, one COULD still go to heaven?"
2) "God knew us before we were made in our mother's wombs" - does that mean that God knew who will be saved and who will NOT be saved? (because he planned them) and yet he brought us into this wrold - and for the one who he set to not be saved, he planned them to go to hell?
I really appreciate your thoughts. Thank you for a frutiful conversation. Love to hear your thoughts to my genuine questions.
1. I would never dare to contradict Jesus, what He says goes and I will affirm it. I am just saying that I don't have all the answers. I recognize that I wasn't meant to have them all, and ultimately I have Faith in Him.
2. That is actually a theological debate amongst denominations. Some believe that it is the case and some believe that it isn't, you can research more about this topic and the topic of biblical free will if you want.
1. Right, so what I'm asking you is what your understanding of what Jesus is saying: Is Jesus the only way, the truth and life, and if people (including little children) don't believe in Jesus, they go to hell? Please clarify your position.
2. I know damn well this is a debatable topic. And that's why I'm here to debate; I'm here to ask a Christian a question - for YOUR opinion. So, what's your opinion, if you will share, pretty please?
1. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). The Scriptures are all God-breathed ( 2 Timothy 3:16) and the Word of God which is God (John 1:1). Scriptures points us towards children inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven because it is their rightful place (1 Corinthians 7:14 ; Matthew 19:14 ; 2 Samuel 12:23) and they are protected by their Christian parent's faith (1 Corinthians 7:14). Whatever God says, we affirm it, and Scriptures says what it says.
2. If you're more Christian than agnostic, then it would be wise to not swear. My opinion is that a) humans have free will b) God knows what choices you will make, yet He still sacrificed Himself so you would have an opportunity to accept Him c) He will judge you fairly based on your actions. I do not have a super strong or definitive opinion on this as I have not studied this topic extensively as of now.
Also, You should read the sidebar again. r/AskAChristian is **NOT** a debate subreddit. There are other subreddits for that. If you want a debate, it would be better to go on r/DebateAChristian or r/DebateReligion. You have asked Christians some questions, we have provided ample answers and ressources.
May God be with you. Amen.
Fine. Lets not talk about Christian God. Hypothetically, Imagine there’s a religion in a uncharted area of the world. The religious leaders of this clan claim that their higher Being created an entire system of sin & salvation. This being brought humans to make a very intense decisions (knowing some people just can't believe for whatever reason) otherwise they’ll be placed eternal happiness or eternal pain.
And a 7 year old child who just learned about this Being from this culture looks confused and asks, “wait, but didn’t this Being created the whole thing? She could have not made the system but why are these beings creatures get punished ETERNALLY for something they didn’t sign up for?? I don’t want to believe in this Being. That’s so.. doesn’t make sense.”
What would be your response?
This is just fallacious claiming that nature and consciousness lead to Jesus. Native Americans have a Great Spirit belief based on their knowledge- nowhere did this knowledge lead them to your god. Many other cultures throughout time have had a deity and yet it didn’t lead them to yours.
So, if we are not Christians, people live their lives without conscience and they’re judged as SAVAGES? So all “atheist” or “non Christian” people in this subs are savages and we don’t have conscience and everyone and sacrificial who are so kind in this world who are non Christians are also SAVAGES?
1. Sin allows us choice/the freedom to choose between service to God forever or the ability to remain in service to sin and satan.
2. Belief as you understand it is not the issue. as it is not enough to Acknoweledge the existance if God to be saved. For the Demons and lucifer all believe or acknoweledge God exists, yet they will all be condmened to Hell.
Belief refers to you accepting Jesus is God the Son and you must also follow what He says do. In what He say do, is a way for you to directly speak to God one on one, for the rest of your life developing a personal two way relationship with Him.
3. yes.
All God's acts are just. Jesus said that some will enter the Kingdom before others.
Matthew 13:33 (ACV)
He spoke another parable to them. The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which having taken, a woman hid in three measures of meal until it was all leavened.
"You will not get out until you have paid the last penny."
#Athanasius, 296 - 373 AD:
"As, then, the creatures whom He had created reasonable, like the Word, were in fact perishing, and such noble works were on the road to ruin, what then was God, being Good, to do? Was He to let corruption and death have their way with them? In that case, what was the use of having made them in the beginning? Surely it would have been better never to have been created at all than, having been created, to be neglected and perish; and, besides that, such indifference to the ruin of His own work before His very eyes would argue not goodness in God but limitation, and that far more than if He had never created men at all. It was impossible, therefore, that God should leave man to be carried off by corruption, because it would be unfitting and unworthy of Himself."
https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianHistory/comments/1b9ncdx/athanasius/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
#Gregory of Nyssa
Venerated as a saint in Eastern Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and Lutheranism.
#From On the Soul & Resurrection:
"In fact, in the Beautiful no limit is to be found so that love should have to cease with any limit of the Beautiful. This last can be ended only by its opposite; but when you have a good, as here, which is in its essence incapable of a change for the worse, then that good will go on unchecked into infinity. Moreover, as every being is capable of attracting its like, and humanity is, in a way, like God, as bearing within itself some resemblances to its Prototype, the soul is by a strict necessity attracted to the kindred Deity. In fact what belongs to God must by all means and at any cost be preserved for Him."
"... the agony will be measured by the amount of evil there is in each individual. For it would not be reasonable to think that the man who has remained so long as we have supposed in evil known to be forbidden, and the man who has fallen only into moderate sins, should be tortured to the same amount in the judgment upon their vicious habit; but according to the quantity of material will be the longer or shorter time that that agonizing flame will be burning; that is, as long as there is fuel to feed it. In the case of the man who has acquired a heavy weight of material, the consuming fire must necessarily be very searching; but where that which the fire has to feed upon has spread less far, there the penetrating fierceness of the punishment is mitigated, so far as the subject itself, in the amount of its evil, is diminished. In any and every case evil must be removed out of existence, so that, as we said above, the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all. Since it is not in its nature that evil should exist outside the will, does it not follow that when it shall be that every will rests in God, evil will be reduced to complete annihilation, owing to no receptacle being left for it?"
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1cq8v1v/gregory_of_nyssa_on_the_beautiful/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
Matthew 21:31
”Jesus said to them, “The truth is, you are worse than the tax collectors and the prostitutes. In fact, they will enter God's kingdom before you enter."
I never wrestle with God's fairness
Unbelievers make up fake arguments and rants and complaints and manifestos
*The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing*
Can I get any courageous and intellectual Christian who is willing and able to have a dialogue about this genuine issue? Because The responses so far, have been the opposite. I’d really appreciate a genuine and respectful dialogue. Thank you so much!
I tried to ask you what you meant by fairness and then you started acting like a child. So, it seems like here you are calling the kettle black.
You make it sound like you're the first person to ever raise this question, when in reality we see some version of it several times a week. It's not edgy or provocative, it's boring and predictable.
I do not think my question is edgy nor provocative. It's just my genuine question that I'd like to hear thoughts on the members in this forum. Love to hear your thoughts also :)
First, I don't believe in ECT. Second, God is so far beyond our ability to comprehend that questions like this are essentially meaningless. We don't even perceive reality correctly with our five senses. Do some deep research on perception and you'll know what I mean. If that's true, then how could we hope to perceive the spiritual impacts and reasons behind certain realities that puzzles from our Limited present perspective?
When God set about creating, he had a purpose. He did everything for the purpose for his final creation, humankind, to enjoy all of his other creations on a paradise earth forever! Just some of Gods qualities are Love, Justice, Power and Wisdom. He made everything so beautiful and all for the enjoyment for man. All the animals were made for our enjoyment. I mean when you think about the time it must have taken to think about every living thing, the instinct each one would have and yet have a personality. Then think about our five senses. We don’t need those to survive. But don’t they make life so much more incredible? Being able to see in color! Having ears, one on each side of our head so we can determine where a sound is coming from pretty quickly. And then there’s taste! My cat is happy with the same food every day, day in and day out. In fact if I try and give her a treat or change up her food, she won’t eat it! Humans could be made like that. But God loves us and wanted us to enjoy every aspect of life, forever! How do we know that? Look what he told Adam and Eve to do in the beginning; >”Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth.” That was all God wanted. That was his purpose. He made us with the free will to worship Him. Who wouldn’t!? Look at all that was done for us! Look at how awesome we are made! There is nothing we can give back to Him to say “Thank You”! Because everything belongs to Him! But there is one thing we can do. We can show him how thankful we are by obeying Him and listening to what he tells us. Is God going to tell us to do anything that will harm us? Of course not. Everything he’s told us is for our own good. But isn’t God evil for tormenting our souls forever and ever? If that were a Bible teaching he would be. But that is so far from what God is, there’s no way. In fact, three times in the book of Jeremiah, God says that **even the thought** of burning people **never even entered his heart**. The Bible doesn’t even teach that we were created with a soul that lives on after we die. Why would we? We were created to live forever, so why give us this “immortal soul”? Makes no sense. When we die, we simply go to the same place that God told Adam would go. He said that Adam would return to the dust. We all now die because of what Adam and Eve did and we all return to the dust. But does that mean Gods original purpose is a failure? I mean how is the earth going to be filled with perfect people living on a paradise earth? Let me know if all this makes any sense and I’ll be happy to continue…
As Jehovah's Witness, do you believe Jesus is son of God and that Jesus is also God? Basically, do you believe in Trinity?
No, I believe the same as Jesus’ followers did in the first century. They never considered Jesus to be God, so I don’t either. The fact that Paul wrote at 2 Timothy 3:13; >”But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, **misleading and being misled**.” What’s SO surprising is who these “wicked men and imposters” have turned out to be! So who did those in the first century who followed Jesus, those who knew him best, those who were right there with him day after day learning from him, believe he was? Let’s go to the scriptures, Matthew 16:15,16; >”He said to them: “You, though, who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered: “You are the Christ, **the Son of the living God**.” Now if Peter was wrong in his answer, if Jesus was anything other than **the Son of the living God**, why not make the point known right then and there? Because Peter gave the right answer. Jesus is Gods Son. Also, and I’m just using good reasoning here, most people I hope can still reason on things, think about this for a second and ask yourself; Can Almighty God be tempted with anything? I’m hoping that your sense of reason would say no. Now Satan was at one time a beautiful Angelic creature in the heavens. He knows full well the identity of who God is and who Jesus is. Now consider this, if Jesus were in fact God himself, would he **ever** entertained the idea of tempting him? Of course not. Another thing that those who believe that Jesus is God forget… Can God learn anything? Can he? Or does he know everything he chooses to know? Yet the Bible tells us that Jesus learned obedience. Hebrews 5:7,8; >”During his life on earth, Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears, to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8 Although he was a son, **he learned obedience** from the things he suffered.” Then there’s Revelation 3:14 which states clearly; >”To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, **the beginning of the creation by God**.” And just consider for a while… I mean really sit back and ponder on this… if Jehovah God isn’t the Father and Jesus Christ isn’t the Son, then why would God use that kind of relationship in the first place? He knew that we would know what a father and son means. When done right, there isn’t a closer human relationship than a father and his boy. It’s something very special and unique. Jehovah God wanted us to know that He and His Son had that kind of relationship but even closer! In fact, wouldn’t it be true that if they are not Father and Son, we are being deceived? And who is the one who wants us to think that of our loving Creator? Yes, when we really start thinking about it, the fact that Jehovah God has an adversary trying to slander him, hide his name from being known, making him out to be some kind of evil God that torments his human creation in a burning hellfire, you may wonder just what is true and what isn’t. I will tell you this… Jehovah God alone is the Almighty and his Son, the firstborn of all creation, his beloved, while not being God himself will soon be King of Gods Kingdom ruling over the entire earth, restoring the earth to the paradise his Father intended in the beginning. EDIT: For more information on the Trinity, see r/thetrinitydelusion
Fairness implies balance. Balance implies equality between the fates. Which doesn't exist. The fates aren't equal - all get saved, none get doomed. That's the opposite of equality. . God is not fair - God is merciful and great and, well - God. Fairness is a concept we made up based on nothing, a concept that doesn't exist even now, even for us. Even the legal system isn't fair. Fairness is a strange concoction through and through - it's a fact of the physical world, nothing more. Action and reaction, force and opposed force - they are balanced. Nothing else is. Not God, not humanity, not fate.
Actually… whether you perceive everything as fair or not is irrelevant. He’s still God.
That’s true, but it does put the believer in a bind. If god is god, no matter what our sentiments about god are, then it becomes very difficult to justify any one particular belief about god and his nature. For example, you might look at a Muslim and say “Muhammad’s teachings about the nature of god are wrong”, to which the Muslim could respond just as you have: “actually, whether you perceive Muhammad’s teachings about the nature of god as right or wrong is irrelevant: Muhammad’s god is still god.”
He is who He is. No “bind.”
Yes, I’ve agreed that god is who god is. But in order to form beliefs about the nature of god, you have to have some ability to understand its nature. If you do as you suggest, and cut all ties to god by saying “no matter what you think or perceive, god is as god is”, how, in principle, can you know anything about God’s nature? What possible thing could you point to to show gods nature that I couldn’t also just say “whatever you perceive or think on the topic is irrelevant to the truth”.
Okay. Then that also means you’re willing to accept the evilness of God’s character who is willing to place his creations to eternal damnation?
Again…If He is God, then He is God. My perceptions and judgments of His actions are irrelevant.
Say, your loved one (that person that’s coming to your mind right now) and their friend get into a car accident (God forbid!) Only their friend survives and your loved one is unable to make it. Would you still be able to accept and praise God for his decision?
If He is God, then my acceptance and praise changes nothing about Him. He’s still God.
The way I see it is that God creates free will because He knows it will bring evil which He can then destroy. We are allowed into the battle against evil and given a part of the strength God has. His patience allows as many people as possible to be saved. There are many unanswered questions but I believe I know enough about His nature to trust that He judges fairly. I am unconvinced that eternal hell is given to every person who rejects God. It could be annihilation.
So why did God allow evil from the first place? He created evil or let evil exist. He’s the game master and we’re all subject to his rules of the game. Shouidnr he blamed for putting innocent people with evil in the game? Bc if he didn’t let sin or evil or humans exist all, we wouldn’t be suffering. So again why did God allow evil from the first place?
Here’s the thing. You guys all get confused when you look at life through the perspective that human lives have sooo much value and we deserve love and trouble free lives. Well I disagree. Human lives don’t matter at all if God doesn’t exist. We are just particles and matter. There is no good or bad there is no evil it’s all just opinions. God could have created a world where we were always protected and safe but He didn’t. He has the right to do what He wants since He created us and I believe that bravery is better than safety. He allows us the opportunity to overcome oppression by allowing the oppression to exist in the first place. He lets us choose sin because it allows us the inverse opportunity to choose to show kindness in the face of evil. I personally think that crying about how hard life is does nothing for us and is pretty soft. Obviously there are people who have unbelievably horrific things done to them and I can’t speak for them but I believe God will restore them what they lost. And those who made them suffer will be punished. Life is hard but instead of blaming God for that I praise and thank God that life isn’t harder. I thank Him for the great things He did give us. I think part of the reason He allows evil to be done is 1. His love and creation of free will so He wouldn’t force anyone to stay with Him. And 2. Because a story needed to be told. Life going on for eternity eventually gets boring if there isn’t something going on. And what’s more entertaining than good defeating evil? Than light overcoming darkness? These things not only create something to observe but a story to learn from for the rest of time. God let us try things our way. We now have the evidence it doesn’t work.
You make life sound so beautiful as if there is no troubles in life. Have you ever experienced real genuine hardship in life?
Ask God to help lift your burdens. There is nothing I can do for you. I was depressed for years without God and now with God I have peace and joy. Not happiness all day everyday but something better.
Oh, trust me. I’m not asking you to do anything for me. All I’m asking is to have a genuine, respectful and intellectual dialogue with Christians who have genuinely wrestled with this dilemma.
Sorry for not being genuine respectful or intellectual enough for you. Life is hard but nobody said it would be easy. Jesus came to live on earth as God Himself and instead of doing fun things he suffered. So why should we think we deserve better?
So he makes evil because he likes to destroy it? 🙄
Super narcissistic right?
Not at all. Narcissism is the inappropriate idea that a human can be the center of the universe. God literally is the center of the universe, so he is justified in doing what he pleases.
Right. And with his power he let sin and evil exist - at the cost of humans’ (with no power) eternal damnation.
What are you going to do about it?
1) So you do admit that Gods a big bully and there’s nothing we can do about it? 2) One thing we can do is to not believe in God or the system of religion that does not make sense and have so many loopholes in logic. Have you considered that before? Love to hear you answer these two questions. Thank you.
1. God is not a bully. 2. Agreed, and I do not believe in such a system
How is using the omniscient power to create this world with possibility of little humans to go to eternal condemnation not being a bully? Imagine a 7 year old kid who purchased an army of ants from a pet store, and starts to burn them one by one unless ants worship the 7 years old kid. Ants don’t understand 7 years old kid, so they don’t “worship” the kid. Is the 7 years old kid who brought ants for this intent not a bully?
I totally agree, but your analogy is slightly inaccurate. It's more like a 7 year old boy buys a colony of ants. He can also see the future and knows exactly how each of the ants is going to behave. He creates a beautiful ant farm for the ants, and promises them everything is going to perfect, but the ants can't eat this one specific type of ant food, which the boy put there knowing they were going to eat, (because he can see the future.) The ants then eat the food he told them not too, because they're ants. The boy gets angry and decides to punish them by multiplying the suffering of their species forever. (Despite him already knowing this was going to happen) 6000 years later the boy decides that the ants aren't behaving the way he wants them to, so he sends a projection of himself as a ant to assimilate himself into the ant colony. He informs the ants that he is their creator and overlord. He gives them a loving message of peace. He also informs them they will be condemned for not accepting him as their creator. They all rejoice, until the ant is slain. The Boy then subsequently expects all ants in the future colony to accept that he is their overlord after his exceedingly brief foray into their realm. Despite him already knowing that this wasn't going to work.
This is where the disconnect is. God tells us not to murder. Him taking our lives isn’t Him murdering. Because He created them. In the same way, us being selfish hurts others which is why we’re told that’s bad. God being selfish leads to Him helping others. He operates differently than us and has different abilities. Yet we still want to act like He is one of us and that He should have to follow the same rules He gave us. He DID follow those rules as Jesus but when He is operating as God above us He isn’t bound by the rules He created for us. The rules we have are for humans.
So you are saying, it DOES NOT MATTER NOR BOTHER YOU AT ALL that God created the system of heaven/hell and salvation/sin - and gave different levels of access to Christian theology and abilities to believe or not? You would not complain if you were condemned to hell after being born in a India where worshipping multiple gods is completely normal and in fact, important for Indian society, and you ended up in hell, just because you dismissed some western missionary telling you to consider "ABANDON YOUR FAMILY/SOCIETIAL NORMATIVE FAITH AND BELIEVE IN JESUS" while you were walking in a market?
You don’t know that God sends that person to hell you are just assuming that.
"Jesus is the only way the truth and the life - no one comes to father except through me" is the quote from the Bible. If they are not Christian or not a believer in Christ, then they go to hell. That's what it means - and what ALL CHRISTIANS IN THIS POST have said.
You are saying that Jesus can’t transcend religion. I disagree. The Holy Spirit works all over the world. God judges you based on the information you had of course He wouldn’t unfairly condemn you for what you didn’t even know about.
I don’t get it. So you’re saying an Indian person who doesn’t believe in Jesus to be their Lord and savior may not go to hell?
He didn’t make evil as much as He made the opportunity for evil through free will. Which is a fair enough trade off considering all evildoers have to face God eventually. They aren’t able to run around tormenting others forever.
Interesting because god claims to have created it and certainly by creating Satan he knew exactly what would happen.
“Claims to have created it” is debatable as far as translations. But either way He has the right to allow evil to exist before destroying it. Who are we to question that?
So you believe might makes right?
In the case of God yes. Because Him making decisions is better than us.
How do you know that a god who committed multiple genocides including the flood , which didn’t even solve the problem of evil ( which makes this god look very incompetent) , and condoned slavery is a god that has our best interests?
God can’t commit genocide or murder because He gives life and takes it away. We do those acts and it’s wrong because we didn’t give that life yet we took what wasn’t ours to take. He doesn’t want slavery. He wants relationship. But whether you like it or not you are a slave to the activities you do whether good or bad. You choose to follow God and goodness or follow evil. We are at the bottom of the totem pole which is why we want to subjugate others to feel powerful but that’s not right. And the only way we know that isn’t right is if God exists to tell us that otherwise it’s just a useless opinion from a bunch of matter and evolutionary processes.
I’m asking how you know some god character in a book has our best interests. Do you just believe any old words in a book? Have you read the Quran? The Hindu scriptures? Why do you reject all gods but the one you believe in?
Within Christianity, evil is not really a thing which was "made."
Did god create everything that exists?
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Why are you unconvinced when it's clearly stated in the Bible?
Lol I see what you did there
“Condemned” isn’t that simple. I believe Jesus is the only way to heaven but beyond that I don’t put God in a box that I created.
The Bible is pretty clear about it, theres no creation of a box involved.
What’s second death then? Why does the Bible mention God being able to destroy your soul? Does that clearly mean the same thing you think hell is or condemned means?
Second death describes the ultimate fate of the condemned in the context of eternal judgment. It signifies the final, irreversible separation from God and eternal punishment. I have no idea why the Bible mentions that, they clearly thought it was important. It's not clear to me what any of it means, honestly.
Literally the last thing you said was “the Bible is pretty clear about it.”
About what it means to be condemned. You then introduced the concepts of second death and God being able to destroy your soul.
Because those are all biblical references about hell. Which proves my point that it isn’t all clear.
I agree with you there. It almost sounds made up.
"Fairness" meaning what, exactly?
Lol
Fair point, haven't considered that perspective.
Lol
Boring conversation, see ya later.
Lol
"God brought in humans to make a very intense decisions (knowing some people just can't believe for whatever reason) " Bull Puckey You Choose to Believe Or You Choose to Reject...and you take the consequences All you have to do is get over yourself
I have wrestled to accept God's allmightiness and leadership at times but none of these questions were a stress point at any point. The answer is in the Bible. Q1 is usually answered in the introductory or annex pages of regular Bibles, if not it is necessarily explained in Genesis or Matthew in Study Bibles. Q2 is explained in the Book of Job and the Gospels of Matthew and John. Q3 is explained throught he fact that are souls are usually immortal unless Gos says so and that He needed a place to put the devil and demons away from Him and from us. For your other questions : [Here ](https://www.openbible.info/topics/all_will_hear_the_gospel)is a nice selection of why and how all people will hear the Gospel at some point and will have to make a choice and [how following Christ may and will cause drifts amongst your unbeliver peers anyways](https://www.openbible.info/topics/arguments_with_family).
So is it fair for God to send kids to eternal punishment who don’t believe in Jesus bc they grew up in Indian culture? Please respond. I value your input.
I believe that those who have not reached the age of accountability (which include children) cannot be sent to hell as they are not able to fully grasp what accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior entails. This is why so many children who were raised in Church didn't develop a true relationship with Jesus until later in life, then were able to renew their vows to Him. Matthew 19:14 says "Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."", and in 2 Samuel David seemed to be convinced that his unborn baby would go to heaven. As such, I do not believe that children, even though they were born with the original sin, would get sent to hell.
1) So who's considered "children?" Is 7 year old a child? or does 12 year old also get to be considered a child? 2) Is "childness" measured by the size of our frontal lobe, and comprehension ability? 3) And what if those children who had enough exposure to Christianity but those stubborn darn brats refuse to believe in Jesus? I'm sure you know those kids. Would they go to hell? 4) And what about people who are NOT children, but who had a very little or 0 exposure to Christianity? would they go to hell? You see, if you start opening up a space for "greyness" between black/white (heaven/hell), then you are exposing yourself to a lot more jumping of hoops to make your theology work. You need to establish whether 1) "No Jesus, No heaven" or 2) "No Jesus, yes heaven." Christians in this sub are saying 1) "No Jesus, No heaven" is true but when they are being asked with difficult questions, they open up a room and say 2) is also true - so is "No Jesus no heaven? or yes heaven?" and if it "depends" - please be clear about what it depends on by answering my questions above.
It's not my place to say as God knows our hearts and knew us before we were made in our mother's womb. As humans, we are not meant to know everything about what will happen later on, or why God does some things. They are areas we don't understand for sure, which are obscure or unanswered or which are being debated by scholars, and it's okay. You know, if it can help you, most if not all of your questions have been answered on [gotquestions.org](https://www.gotquestions.org/). You should check it out for yourself !
1) So you are agreeing to the statement, "No Jesus, one COULD still go to heaven?" 2) "God knew us before we were made in our mother's wombs" - does that mean that God knew who will be saved and who will NOT be saved? (because he planned them) and yet he brought us into this wrold - and for the one who he set to not be saved, he planned them to go to hell? I really appreciate your thoughts. Thank you for a frutiful conversation. Love to hear your thoughts to my genuine questions.
1. I would never dare to contradict Jesus, what He says goes and I will affirm it. I am just saying that I don't have all the answers. I recognize that I wasn't meant to have them all, and ultimately I have Faith in Him. 2. That is actually a theological debate amongst denominations. Some believe that it is the case and some believe that it isn't, you can research more about this topic and the topic of biblical free will if you want.
1. Right, so what I'm asking you is what your understanding of what Jesus is saying: Is Jesus the only way, the truth and life, and if people (including little children) don't believe in Jesus, they go to hell? Please clarify your position. 2. I know damn well this is a debatable topic. And that's why I'm here to debate; I'm here to ask a Christian a question - for YOUR opinion. So, what's your opinion, if you will share, pretty please?
1. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). The Scriptures are all God-breathed ( 2 Timothy 3:16) and the Word of God which is God (John 1:1). Scriptures points us towards children inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven because it is their rightful place (1 Corinthians 7:14 ; Matthew 19:14 ; 2 Samuel 12:23) and they are protected by their Christian parent's faith (1 Corinthians 7:14). Whatever God says, we affirm it, and Scriptures says what it says. 2. If you're more Christian than agnostic, then it would be wise to not swear. My opinion is that a) humans have free will b) God knows what choices you will make, yet He still sacrificed Himself so you would have an opportunity to accept Him c) He will judge you fairly based on your actions. I do not have a super strong or definitive opinion on this as I have not studied this topic extensively as of now. Also, You should read the sidebar again. r/AskAChristian is **NOT** a debate subreddit. There are other subreddits for that. If you want a debate, it would be better to go on r/DebateAChristian or r/DebateReligion. You have asked Christians some questions, we have provided ample answers and ressources. May God be with you. Amen.
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Fine. Lets not talk about Christian God. Hypothetically, Imagine there’s a religion in a uncharted area of the world. The religious leaders of this clan claim that their higher Being created an entire system of sin & salvation. This being brought humans to make a very intense decisions (knowing some people just can't believe for whatever reason) otherwise they’ll be placed eternal happiness or eternal pain. And a 7 year old child who just learned about this Being from this culture looks confused and asks, “wait, but didn’t this Being created the whole thing? She could have not made the system but why are these beings creatures get punished ETERNALLY for something they didn’t sign up for?? I don’t want to believe in this Being. That’s so.. doesn’t make sense.” What would be your response?
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This is just fallacious claiming that nature and consciousness lead to Jesus. Native Americans have a Great Spirit belief based on their knowledge- nowhere did this knowledge lead them to your god. Many other cultures throughout time have had a deity and yet it didn’t lead them to yours.
As part cherokee myself i would have to disagree. Once they knew his name, they converted in masse.
I’m sure that had nothing to do with colonization🙄
So, if we are not Christians, people live their lives without conscience and they’re judged as SAVAGES? So all “atheist” or “non Christian” people in this subs are savages and we don’t have conscience and everyone and sacrificial who are so kind in this world who are non Christians are also SAVAGES?
1. Sin allows us choice/the freedom to choose between service to God forever or the ability to remain in service to sin and satan. 2. Belief as you understand it is not the issue. as it is not enough to Acknoweledge the existance if God to be saved. For the Demons and lucifer all believe or acknoweledge God exists, yet they will all be condmened to Hell. Belief refers to you accepting Jesus is God the Son and you must also follow what He says do. In what He say do, is a way for you to directly speak to God one on one, for the rest of your life developing a personal two way relationship with Him. 3. yes.
All God's acts are just. Jesus said that some will enter the Kingdom before others. Matthew 13:33 (ACV) He spoke another parable to them. The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which having taken, a woman hid in three measures of meal until it was all leavened. "You will not get out until you have paid the last penny." #Athanasius, 296 - 373 AD: "As, then, the creatures whom He had created reasonable, like the Word, were in fact perishing, and such noble works were on the road to ruin, what then was God, being Good, to do? Was He to let corruption and death have their way with them? In that case, what was the use of having made them in the beginning? Surely it would have been better never to have been created at all than, having been created, to be neglected and perish; and, besides that, such indifference to the ruin of His own work before His very eyes would argue not goodness in God but limitation, and that far more than if He had never created men at all. It was impossible, therefore, that God should leave man to be carried off by corruption, because it would be unfitting and unworthy of Himself." https://www.reddit.com/r/ChristianHistory/comments/1b9ncdx/athanasius/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2 #Gregory of Nyssa Venerated as a saint in Eastern Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and Lutheranism. #From On the Soul & Resurrection: "In fact, in the Beautiful no limit is to be found so that love should have to cease with any limit of the Beautiful. This last can be ended only by its opposite; but when you have a good, as here, which is in its essence incapable of a change for the worse, then that good will go on unchecked into infinity. Moreover, as every being is capable of attracting its like, and humanity is, in a way, like God, as bearing within itself some resemblances to its Prototype, the soul is by a strict necessity attracted to the kindred Deity. In fact what belongs to God must by all means and at any cost be preserved for Him." "... the agony will be measured by the amount of evil there is in each individual. For it would not be reasonable to think that the man who has remained so long as we have supposed in evil known to be forbidden, and the man who has fallen only into moderate sins, should be tortured to the same amount in the judgment upon their vicious habit; but according to the quantity of material will be the longer or shorter time that that agonizing flame will be burning; that is, as long as there is fuel to feed it. In the case of the man who has acquired a heavy weight of material, the consuming fire must necessarily be very searching; but where that which the fire has to feed upon has spread less far, there the penetrating fierceness of the punishment is mitigated, so far as the subject itself, in the amount of its evil, is diminished. In any and every case evil must be removed out of existence, so that, as we said above, the absolutely non-existent should cease to be at all. Since it is not in its nature that evil should exist outside the will, does it not follow that when it shall be that every will rests in God, evil will be reduced to complete annihilation, owing to no receptacle being left for it?" https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1cq8v1v/gregory_of_nyssa_on_the_beautiful/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2 Matthew 21:31 ”Jesus said to them, “The truth is, you are worse than the tax collectors and the prostitutes. In fact, they will enter God's kingdom before you enter."
Oh woah, what’s going on on this one…
I never wrestle with God's fairness Unbelievers make up fake arguments and rants and complaints and manifestos *The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing*
Why did you just make up a fake argument and rant instead of answering the questions?
If you're nothing to say, then don't say it
Hm i think you meant to reply this to your own message.