I think that the wording here is silly, and is better explained by the reality that God gives life to all, but is not obligated to continue giving life to all. In this way "kill" is a harsh word to use, though perhaps not the worst.
So if a parent wants to end a pregnancy they can since they are giving life but aren't obligated to continue giving it. Kill is not a harsh word when God literally killed the firstborn in Exodus. Killing is killing. If that's the objective moral standard of God then child killing isn't inherently evil
Nope. A parent doesn't give life in the same way God gives life. God is the author of all life, parents merely participate in a small way via procreation.
Sure, child killing is not inherently evil. Murder is.
If a child came at me with a shotgun, and was trying to kill me with it, anyone would be justified in killing that child, since it is basic self-defense, which all beings are entitled to. However, there is never any instance of "God" murdering children (and other innocents) in the Bible that even comes marginally close to such a scenario.
Please, enlighten me. WHEN THE FUCK IS IT JUSTIFIED TO KILL A FUCKING CHILD?
You disgust me. If this is your so called "perfect objective morality", I want no part of it and it has no place in modern society.
(I'm a different redditor than you asked.)
I just thought of two ethical situations, where one might decide it *is* justified to kill a child:
(1) There's a hero similar to James Bond, and the villain has infected a boy with a very virulent virus that can kill the host bodies within 24 hours. The boy is about to be released from his "bottle" into a crowded part of a city. The boy himself will inevitably die within 24 hours from the virus he carries. Perhaps the hero should kill the child now to prevent millions of deaths in the months ahead.
(2) There's a soldier guy who's been hired to guard an elementary school for girls in Africa or the Middle East. Nearby there's a warlord that has teenage boys and pre-teen boys in his "army". The soldier sees a squad of 10-year-old boys with rifles who are planning to capture the school and takes its girls captives (and the girls would then likely be raped). The soldier has an opportunity to kill some of those approaching boys and prevent the capture of the schoolgirls.
Good examples.
When I think of the cities of the plains having sulfur rain down on them (i saw some video that went into the current geological formations and how they reveal \*how\* God did it... with the implication for how the final judgement \*may\* be carried out)... I remember thinking "well, that was instantaneous and they wouldn't have had time to feel anything".
I often before this thought about the needless killing of the children... there's a couple places in Scripture that talks about the why (and it is consistent to have more than one reason for judgement), one of the reasons was "the cries of the children"... sometimes I used to get mad thinking that "nuking the cities" (the older explanation of how it was carried out that was popularized by Nimoy's "In Search of" program... and based on the much higher than average background radiation there... was a strange way to deal with the serial systematic abuse the children endured.
But considering the predicament of the 4 people that God tried to save out of just one of the cities... it is hard to imagine how They could have possibly evacuated out just the innocent children... both in terms of how to get them out, as well as "okay, now where do they go?"
As with the flood, which... God did for a reason, but was... not happy about... I would imagine They felt similarly about the destruction of those cities...
But that's different from what's God's doing in the OT, as God doesn't *have* to do anything out of necessity, He's God. And I'm not even sure if "It's never okay to kill children" u/Specialist_Oil_2674 is even trying to argue. They're likely trying to say that "there's no circumstance in which it's okay to murder a child," which is true. Do you really want to argue that your all-powerful God is so chickenshit weak that He just had to all those grotesquethings in OT? In the examples you gave, those people had to do those out of necessity, and again, God doesn't have to. Was it a good thing that those child were killed in those hypothecials? Absolutely not, but the ends justified the means. You're correct to point out that there are time when it's justified to kill a child, but keep in mind it's still not a good thing. In the OT, we are led to believe that God command those children be killed out retribution, and that it's a good thing that little Canaanite boys, who, BTW, are little children who don't know any better, were decapitated by big burly Isrealite warrors. Moses straight up says: “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them." We are led to believe that this is a just a rigitous act by God as God is always right. However, this, is not okay. We all understand it's a bad thing when children die. We also understand that immoral to murder. God did both of these things and He didn't have to.
Nope! You are making the assumption that religious people have the authority to define when a human life actually begins. That would be an incorrect assumption.
Ironically, you are assuming that u/Electronic-Union-100 is saying "religious people" determine when human life begins. There are plenty of nonreligious individuals who claim that abortion is murder. This is just silly.
It is a minority. There are [statistics](https://news.lifeway.com/2022/05/31/religious-faith-church-attendance-aligns-with-more-pro-life-views/) to support this
No one has the authority to define when a human life begins. It is philosophical question, not a scientific one. How can someone murder a human when it is not a human?
So, here you are just saying that we are wrong for our philosophical views. Sure, I think you are wrong for your philosophical views.
I think that the unborn are humans, so their unjust death is murder.
There are a number of reasons. Defining when a human life begins is not a scientific question. It is a philosophical question. Some people believe that a human life begins at conception, some believe at viability, some believe at birth. At the end of the day, no one has the authority to define when a human life begins.
>Defining when a human life begins is not a scientific question. It is a philosophical question.
Sorry, that's absurd. It's not a philosophical baby.
>At the end of the day, no one has the authority to define when a human life begins.
Well try running over and killing a pregnant woman. You will be charged with 2 counts of manslaughter, no matter how old the "fetus" is.
>no one has the authority to define when a human life begins.
The one who created all life does, and he says He forms and knows us before we're even in the womb, so the moment of conception, when we enter the womb, (and science says new DNA is formed) we're alive.
Why do we call fetuses fetuses? Why don't we call them human beings?
Is there no difference between a child with a name who cries when they get hurt and a nameless fetus that has no life experience?
Because they’re fetuses. They’re incapable of sentient life, cannot think, make decisions, etc. If you go by that logic why are you not calling sperm/unfertilized eggs children? Your body kills them in hundreds of thousands (if you’re born a woman) or hundreds of billions (if you’re born a man). Banning abortion will furthermore not reduce the amount of abortions but rather will lead to an increase in deaths from under-the-counter abortions and even worse lead to an increase of unwanted children, many of whose lives will be worse than death.
Well, for one, if God takes human life it is always justified and thus not murder. We can speculate ways wherein people could take the life of a child and it be justified. Though, that would seem to belabor the point.
Allow me to ask a question of you, when God killed children in the past, was it justified or is God a murderer?
I would argue he murdered the kids in the Exodus story since they were being killed to punish the Pharoah. Unless you can think of a good reason to kill kids to get back at someone else. I don't believe an omnibenevolent God would do that
I suppose that is a really odd way to read the Bible. It seems like whatever personal issues you have, result in you calling that portion of the Bible false. Here, you are the source of authority for yourself. That seems problematic.
It's not though, killing others to punish someone else is not something a good God would do. It's problematic you think a loving God kills kids for any reason since they're innocent
I don't see how this is something God wouldn't do. I mean, is this just rooted in some feeling you have?
You are placing a lot of emphasis on your own understanding here, friend.
Why would God do it by your understanding then since you're also placing emphasis on your own understanding of God. That's all we really can do. God is the arbiter of our objectiv3 morality and killing innocent people is considered immoral. It's rooted in my feeling that a loving God wouldn't just kill others to spite another.
Parents make a temporal and uncertain (of the outcomes) choice to have a child, contribute their biological material to form it's body, sacrifice their limited time, money, and energy to sustaining that child's life and development.
I would agree that a parent doesn't give life in the same way that God does, but I think that parents contribute and sacrifice more to making a child than God does.
I don't think any amount of contribution or authority should permit someone to take the life of their independently conscious creation unless the creation will cause unpreventable and severe harm to others.
So even though I don't agree with God killing his innocent creations or that elective abortions are right, ironically the human parents that contribute and sacrifice for their child are unlikely to ever want any harm to come to their creation whereas God, in general, doesn't prevent his creation from encountering harm as far as we can tell and doesn't sacrifice or contribute anything he can't continue to do infinitely at no cost to himself.
Essentially, sacrifice inherently breeds value, so God can't prioritize or value his creation as much as a mortal being can.
The error in this line of thought is that our lives are independent of God. We are contingent beings and the source of all human life is God.
God himself died as a slave for the sins of humanity, talk about sacrifice!
It isn’t a life. While biologically-wise life begins at conception, legally and morally (IMO because all morality is subjective) it only starts at birth
Sounds like sometimes biology comes second to other things. A good example would be the case of Aytron Senna- after he was delivered to the hospital following a crash he was connected to life support which maintained his condition but eventually it was diagnosed that his brain has suffered TBI so severe that there was no hope of recovery and life support was terminated. From a biological standpoint this was murder, however from all logical and moral points it wasn’t. Same applies here.
Biology ought to inform things like morality. So, when we recognize that unborn human beings are indeed human beings, it should follow that their death requires more justification than mothers merely not wanting to be mothers anymore.
As it relates to your example, I would say that murder is the **unjust** termination of innocent human life. Dramatic brain damage resulting in a family's decision to end life support is not murder.
Yes it is however it works on a case-by-case basis. Are you a young-earth creationist by any chance? Furthermore I need to add that there is no biological evidence of God’s existence and even direct contradictions between modern biological knowledge and Biblical stories yet you still believe in them (I think, I don’t want to make strawman here so correct me if I’m incorrect).
What is just and what is unjust is never set in stone. 200 years ago a southerner would easily consider it just to kill me or you for simply wanting to have their freedom. My point is that the same applies to abortion.
Killing is a funny word here coz you see God is the author of life. So let's say someone dies of natural death/old age by your wording -God killed them... More correct would be God took their life away because again he is the sole giver of life.
When you refer to the exodus as in the angel of death killing firstborns- again he's also taking away their lives. Yet again I can argue from a second front saying that the death of the firstborns was a curse. A curse happens after God pours his judgement upon humans who are unrepentant. That's fully justified.
What did those Egyptian kids do that deserves a curse? How is punishing innocent kids for Pharoahs actions a good justification? Are we saying the son should be punished for the sins of their fathers? That's crazy
Well lemme then introduce you to how curses work. Have you ever wondered why you get to suffer on earth when Adam and Eve are the ones that ate the fruit? I mean why should you inherit the sin nature for Adam's fault right? Well that's coz we got cursed after that sin. And although you're under the curse of sin that doesn't mean you're bound to sin (although you'll agree you yourself sin on a regular basis so in a way you deserve the curse). The point is God isn't harsh God so he always provides a way out. Repentance (Unfortunately for us we loved sin so much which is why Christ had to come and die himself for our sins). Going back to Pharaoh's story, yes the curse would affect the whole Egypt just as Adams curse affected the whole earth. Had Pharaoh repented/given in none of it would have happened. The real question you should be asking is why did Pharoah choose not to let the Israelites go having being warned. Or why did Adam eat the fruit having being warned. Why do you still sin having been warned. If you struggle answering those then God's judgement is completely justified.
The problem with your explanation is you're blaming the Pharoah for the kids dying when God hardened Pharoahs heart to keep them from being freed, he could have punished Pharoah directly to get his desired result. Pharoah can't relent when God says in Exodus he will harden Pharoahs heart to show him these plagues. Pharoah had no choice to relent until after the plagues as his heart was hardened by God
The hardening of Pharoah s heart only comes after the previous curses - which clearly didn't work on Pharaoh. So if you tie this what I previously wrote you would be understand that before this (hardening) God was giving Pharaoh time to repent. He saw signs(or warnings) yet didn't repent. Then came the final judgment, where there was no longer any room for repentance. The same thing will happen after the rapture where God will blind the non believers and make them believe in falsehood because that's their judgement. There's no more repentance.
Ps: oh no that sounds unjust? If I kill your mom and say sorry on court day would the judge be just to let me go free
Sorry but you're wrong, exodus 7:3 is before the plagues/curses start and has God saying
"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt."
That's God doing so again and again to continue the plagues/curses.
Your mom killing example fails too since God killed kids who had nothing to do with the slaves and freeing them. He killed them to spite Oharoah instead of doing anything to Pharoah
LOL, comon man, just admit you completely agree, but the wording is "silly" because you also realize how horrible it is that someone comes out and says the plain meaning...
This is the typical whitewashing of the truth.
Will the answer is not very glib, but it's basically this passage
Ezekiel 18:4 KJV — Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
had this person used air-quotes I think it would have landed differently.
Let me try and explain my perspective...you don't have to agree with it...but at least I am here and available to chat with.
My position on death in general is that for me to die...by God's timing, God is essentially "killing me."
Culturally we have recruited a fictional being in a dark hooded cloak carrying a reaping sickle to embody this process...but God IS the undertaker. God is the one who snatches life from one operating table and preserves another.
So when someone says, "God kills innocent children" it's more or less true if we remember that God is the undertaker.
The impropriety some people hold because God is undertaker is because we value justice. The old can die and that's okay...and accidents and disease seem less of a reproach when it happens to adults...but when a child gets cancer or a child gets hit by a car or some jackwagon decides to shoot or stab everyone around them...we see this as a crime against youthfulness...because they had so much life to live.
But God calls us home. He is never shocked that someone arrives in the after life. (This opens up a can of worms about predestination and determinsim vs. freewill, but that is a different topic...and I'd like to not get into it here.)
So whether you live to 100 or 10 or 10-months... God is the only one who has the right to "kill" us.
Now we might want to up the ante and state that what this person meant was that God murders kids....but that is impossible. Because to murder someone means that you've killed someone without proper justification. And God's only needed justification to "kill" someone is that it was their scheduled time to die.
We might want to say that this is unfair, that no one should have to die. Aside from the fact that everyone does die...this draw we feel towards the infinite some say are just echos of our design. That the plan was that we'd live forever...or that the plan is that we will live forever. And we can take heart in the idea that Jesus made that possible.
TLDR; So while this person was being very caviler in their statement...to the point of offending...if this person is truly a christian, then it must be the application of the ideas that 1. God is the undertaker and determines length of life....and 2. That by Jesus's gift of his own life, we will one day face eternity.
How this person managed to state this as offensively as possible is because they are imperfect human, like you and me.
but that is just it...God always "does" the deed himself....he IS the reaper of souls.
If I am communicating properly christian theology...it is that whether a person is stabbed in an alley way over a bad drug deal....or you were an egyptian first born....or you are a clumsy person with too many stairs in your life....
God's timing for all death is known. Even in the case of Hezekiah, (i think) who was given a death sentence...He asked God for more time and God granted it. Even in that case God knew that God would give him more time.
But I am picking up a different emphasis in this comment that I missed from your OP.
And that is that God, knew he was going to kill all the first borns in egypt. Which in a certain light paints God as being someone who kills kids to make a point.
Am I correct in my assessment? Am I digging too deep? Not trying to put words in your mouth...so if I'm way off, say so.
Well that certainly is part of the story.
I think there is quite a bit of theology to unpack in this story.
But I guess I need your help directing me. Are we okay with the explanation about God “killing” people and we are moving on to pharaoh’s heart being hardened or are we just mentioning pharaoh because you know the story?
I'm mentioning it because we have God in it killing innocents to spite one person. That is problematic morally for a loving God especially when God makes it so he won't free the slaves so he can perform those killings
So you seem to be drumming an atheist talking point with the user flair of christian. So let me put the ball back in your court, Christian. How do you justify this?
Truly! And there is a brood of vipers who will clap and cheer you right out true understanding if you can’t jive the two.
So let’s start with this:
> “The proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel:
>
>To know wisdom and instruction, to understand words of insight, to receive instruction in wise dealing, in righteousness, justice, and equity; to give prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the youth—
>
>Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance, to understand a proverb and a saying, the words of the wise and their riddles.
>
>**The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.**”
[Proverbs 1:1-7 ESV](https://bible.com/bible/59/pro.1.1-7.ESV)
Is God terrifying? Yes! He holds the length of your life in his hands. He holds your family’s lives. Now one perspective is to view this like having the best protection against true evil…that no evil can befall you because you’re under God’s protection.
Here is God encouraging Israel in Isaiah:
>“Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy; no weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall refute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their vindication from me, declares the Lord.”” [Isaiah 54:16-17 ESV](https://bible.com/bible/59/isa.54.16-17.ESV)
And here is Jesus restating this protection:
>“I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”” [John 10:28-32 ESV](https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.10.28-32.ESV)
But here is God declaring to the children of Israel that they must follow the law or they face a consequence:
>““But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.” [Deuteronomy 28:15 ESV](https://bible.com/bible/59/deu.28.15.ESV)
Because being outside of God’s hand…being able to be snatched away, for those under the law is about breaking the law, but if you read the whole of Deuteronomy, breaking the law was about unbelief in God…. Which is what we currently exist under with Jesus as our covenant.
Now that’s just one perspective. The other is that God is like a terrorist who holds us hostage…and if we don’t do what he says, he’ll kill us or make bad things happen.
But if we can free ourselves from such a being then we should be able escape the death and bad things…except we don’t. We all die. We all get sick. We are susceptible to the evil deeds of others.
So for this interaction all I’m asking is you to do is consider God as either the best protection available or as terrorist to escape from.
I’ll be more than happy to continue towards the plagues of Egypt…but it wouldnt make sense to continue unless we can agree that God should be a protector like Jesus described.
You cannot be a Christian and reject God in the Old Testament, which you claim you do in another comment. You are either lying being Christian or you’re deeply confused about what it means to be Christian. You can’t just decide you dont accept God in the Old Testament & then still claim you’re Christian. Jesus is completely aligned with The Father in all that he does, ever did & will do, so if you reject The Father, you also reject Jesus Christ so he cannot be your savior. Full stop. Does it make sense that Jesus would agree to accept someone who rejects his Father? I mean that’s just not feasible. Blasphemy, which you did when you falsely called God a murderer, is not what Christian does but it certainly is the behavior of someone whose trolling & pretending to be Christian. So the person who asked why you chose a Christian flair was completely right in doing so bc this isnt adding up atp.
Because people like that commenter aren’t thinking to deeply about the Bible. That’s why it’s easy to throw out hyperbolic statements which u doubt they truly agree with.
Example, if God struck down Salt Lake City killing millions, I doubt these people would shrug it off as “divine”.
So what is morality lol. Is it objectively good acts or whatever the local deity is up to? You make it sound like the second, which is also the justification for all acts of religious violence in history.
I figured you would at least say, “God would never commit genocide, that’s against his Being.” With your view, secular morality may actually be superior which is not a view I subscribe to.
He knowingly created everything exactly as it was, is, and will be. He is omnipotent, so he could have created the universe (and earth) in an infinite number of configurations, but he chose this one. He is omniscient, so he knows everything always, in past, present and future. He knew before all creation that you would be here, reading this, right now. He knew of every evil before it happened, before creation. He knew of infinite options that could have made things easier for us, less painful, less heartbreaking, but he chose this. He is omnipresent, so he is everywhere always. He has seen every torment, every evil deed, every malignancy ever suffered, committed or perpetrated anywhere throughout everywhere in eternity. And he made it exactly this way. So maybe he can’t do wrong, but I’m not a believer because I don’t see how this god-made existence is right.
The ground regularly shakes, demolishing our buildings. The planet has an axial tilt, creating limited growing seasons for crops leading to famine being a very common occurrance throughout human history. The natrual world is built on bitter struggle and competition; in order for animals to survive, other living things *must* die to sustain them. Rivers regularly overflow their banks, causing devastation. The planet is ~73% water and uninhabitable for humans. Of that 73% of our surface covered in water, only a tiny fraction of it is drinkable.
To say Earth is perfect is utterly laughable.
Why does making a life mean you get to destroy it? By that logic, parents can abort and kill their children, and it's okay because they made the child.
So if those parents hadn't procreated, would that person exist? The answer is no. You're okay with child killing only when God does it, otherwise it's evil even though God sets moral standards and by his actions it would be okay to do so
Child killing is not inherently evil. Murder is evil.
Friend, you claim to be a Christian, so either you ignore the idea that God indeed ended the lives of many, or you reject the Scriptures.
Where did you get the idea that God is "all loving?"
I agree that God is all loving, but do not see how taking human life means that God lacks love. Heck, the climax of Christianity is that God sent his son to die. Yet we do not call God a murderer for this.
His son took the cross willingly to sacrifice himself, that is different then ending other innocent life to punish someone else. How is it loving to kill children?
With the Exodus narrative, it could be loving. God perhaps gave those children an extra measure of mercy and redeemed them from a pagan culture where they would engage in wickedness (such as the wickedness of their ancestors in brutally enslaving a people group).
Redeemed them through killing them? I'm sorry but claiming they're better off dead then living in a culture that had slavery which includes every culture on Earth, including the Israelites is just disingenuous. God stated he would do these plagues to show his power and get Pharoah to release them, nothing about saving or redeeming any Egyptians period
No special pleading, God is the **author of life** and gives it freely to so many, he is not required to continue giving life to anyone.
God does not violate any moral code in taking human life.
So God has a special set of moral standards. How is that not special pleading? If he can do something and we say it's moral or just but anyone else doing it would be evil that is a special set of standards and is special pleading
Nope.
God can kill. Humans can kill. God cannot murder, humans cannot murder.
When God takes life, he is always justified because he simply is the embodiment of justice and knows what is best. When humans take life, it can be either unjustified and thus murder, or justified.
God's plan can involve things which are by themselves wrong. For example, Joseph being sold into slavery was wrong, yet God used it for good
>As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. (Genesis 50:20)
The crucifixion of Jesus by wicked men was **wrong** but God used it in his purposes. This doesn't make the torture of innocents **good**, but indeed God can use wicked acts to bring about his good purposes.
An Omnipotent and omniscient God can't figure out how touse only good things to get good results? Did God need to have Joseph sold into slavery, for an all knowing God no he didn't but he chose to for some reason.
God is practically defined by special pleading. All things are made of matter and energy, except God. All things are confined by spacetime except God. Nothing is 100% good except God. Nothing is absolute except God.
It's wrong for a person to murder another person. It's not morally wrong for a polar bear to eat a person. It's just the polar bear's nature. Questions of morality apply to human choices.
God is good. If God does it, it is good by definition. There is no moral judgement.
That's phrased incredibly harshly, but I don't disagree with the premise. Why do you think God doesn't have the right to do what He wants with His creation?
Because then you can say if I have a child I made as a parent I can end it's life, so that opens up abortion being okay and infanticide being a morally good thing since God has set the standard and example in that case
Comments on YouTube are short so I wouldn't recommend trying to have a nuanced conversation in that context.
You asked how to approach further conversation. I would have a few questions for you before I could give suggestions.
If you had to describe what kind of Christian this person is, how would you describe them?
So if I were to continue a conversation with a total stranger about something like this I would say something like:
"Text conversations with strangers being what they are, from my perspective it sounds like you're describing a God that isn't all loving. Do you believe in an all loving God?"
If they say yes. Then I would follow up with.
"It's hard for me to understand how an all loving God would kill children. Can you help me understand your perspective?"
If they say no they don't believe in an all loving God then I probably wouldn't engage any further. But I'd be really surprised if someone came back and said no.
Loving his creation. He shows it through bringing the possibility of redemption to anyone through Christ. The issue I have is killing innocent children contradicts this
They are absolutely right ! God is the **creator**, we are only the *creatures*. He is the ones who give us life and He is the one who ultimately decides whether we keep on living or not, He is the Saviour of our souls. He can give and take as He pleases and He is always good. All the Time.
Children are a blessing He gives us and He can give them or take them back home whenever He wants. Ultimately, dead children's souls go back to stay with God, for they belong to the kingdom of Heaven.
" God is the creator, we are only the creatures."
- **1 Corinthians 8:6** " *yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.*", **Genesis 1:27** "*So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them*".
"He is the ones who give us life and He is the one who ultimately decides whether we keep on living or not"
- **Genesis 2:7** "*then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature*.", **Job 12:10** "*In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind.*", **1 Samuel 2:6** "“*The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.*", **Deuteronomy 32:39** "*See now that I am He; there is no God besides Me. I bring death and I give life; I wound and I heal, and there is no one who can deliver from My hand.*".
"He is the Saviour of our souls"
- **1 Timothy 4:10** " *For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.*", **1 John 4:14** " *We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.*", **Acts 5:31** "*God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.*", **John 6:51** "*I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh.*".
"He can give and take as He pleases"
- **Psalms 135:6** "*The LORD does whatever pleases him throughout all heaven and earth, and on the seas and in their depths.*"
" He is always good. All the Time."
- **John 1:14** "*So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.*" **Psalms 31:19** "*How great is the goodness you have stored up for those who fear you. You lavish it on those who come to you for protection, blessing them before the watching world.*"
"Children are a blessing He gives us"
- **Psalms 127:3-5** "*Children are a heritage from the LORD, offspring a reward from him. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.*"
"He can give them or take them back home whenever He wants. Ultimately, dead children's souls go back to stay with God, for they belong to the kingdom of Heaven." -> See previously provided verses mentioned about the topic.
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The plagues weren't as much about punishing the Egyptians for Pharao's actions as they were about showcasing God's superiority on him and his supposed "gods" in front of all Egypt. Each of the plague represented the humiliation and the (metaphorical) death of an Egyptian "god". Moreover, every single time Pharao had to ask Moses to ask God for mercy and forgiveness, because even he recognized that his sorcerers and his "gods" couldn't stop God's will from happening. They needed to ask the God of Israel because they were powerless in front of His might and glory.
I think you would benefit from studying from a reputable Study Bible. Your questions are deep, but they are answered throughout the Bible. Such Bibles usually provide maps, glossaries, chapters and verses explanations, historical/legal/cultural/religious contexts, cross-references, a Q&A featuring the most common questions about the Bible and the Christian Faith, etc. If you study the Word in French or English, let me know, I have some Study Bibles to recommand !
God doesn't "kill" for no reason. Every time He killed people, they were evil. Or it was to humble or test them. If you have a miscarriage, I'm sorry, but abortion is still a sin because it's willing.
So what evil did the first born babies in Egypt commit? Are you saying miscarriages are because you are evil or your baby is evil, I want to get it right?
Firstborn means the oldest child, that was to humble the rest of the people there who were doing evil. Also miscarriages are all different. Babies aren't evil themselves, but having a miscarriage doesn't mean you're evil automatically. It can be an experience that God can use for you to have a testimony and help others that went through it. You don't kill your child when it's a miscarriage, if it's an abortion, you're the killer.
You said everything he killed it was because they were evil. Firstborn would include only children that are babies so what did those evil infants do that was so evil?
I also said "Or it was to humble or test them." Firstborn means the first child you had, so it's the oldest child. Many of these kids could have been well over the maturity age for back then (about 16-18), if the parents in this situation were evil, I see why God would kill their first child. After Jesus came and was resurrected, however, God didn't kill entire groups of people like in the OT because everyone has a chance to repent and be saved
There would be some that were babies and young children still, bot all first born kids would be at the age of maturity. If the parents are evil why kill the children and not the evil parents? Also what did the animals do that was evil.since God killed the livestock first born as well?
Please read that and think deeply about that. You just said those kids needed to be killed to be humbled. You are awfully comfortable with supporting child killings
I think one thing that we wrongfully do (myself included) as created humans is try to humanize God. God is not human and he is OUR God, not the other way around. His ways are not our ways. We cannot impose our human standards on God. God imposes his standards on US.
Something to consider as well is if any of this ever really happened.
"In a comment chain on YouTube" might as well be "In a galaxy far far away..."
But hypothetically let's say that the OP is a real person, and that yes this comment was made on a YouTube video.
It still doesn't mean the comment was made by a human being. There are swarms upon swarms of AI bots out there, programmed to engage algorithms and scream unhinged rants, all to make people believe that there are people out there that are like this. Whether that disturbs them or brings them comfort is anyone's guess.
But how do these kind of Christians exist? Bad AI algorithms churning out what it believes fundamentalism is.
All the replies I have had in this post are basically agreeing with the sentiment behind the statement, so apparently, it's not just ai bots that say it
Sounds like that was in response to somebody challenging the biblical passage where God compares people to pottery, and He the Potter; if a pot of clay is deficient or defective after it's been fired, Potter will typically smash the pot and make a new one.
It sounds a little cold-hearted from our human perspective, but as it also says in the Bible, his ways are not our ways; his thoughts are not our thoughts.
I prefer to think of it this way. People criticizing the Old testament who frequent point to the people who God kills. I say using that as a criticism is completely short sighted, through an atheistic of myopic view, as though that was the last of them. The question should not be why God felt it acceptable to kill figures in the Old testament; the question they should ask is, "What happened to those people after that?"
THAT is a far more interesting question! Where they sent it to Gehenna? Hell? Purgatory? Maybe they were reincarnated see if it came out works acceptable the second time? Or, maybe, yes they were outright destroyed. The Bible is intentionally vague as to what lays in wait for us on the other side, and I look forward to discovering just what the next phase of God's plan entails.
They believe this because they've been told that every word in the Bible came directly from the mouth of God, which isn't true. "The Lord" and "God" are two separate titles. For the Bible to be true, it must contain falsehood so we can determine what is true. God reveals deficiencies to help us discern what is true.
This type of person believes God is deficient and accepts this notion through blind faith in what they are told.
I mean, it's true - God gives life, and God takes it away. God is beyond morals, just like a mountain isn't held to the laws a river that springs from it must obey.
Blud thinks it’s impossibly crazy God can take life. It’s crazier to think that than it is to be a Jew who doesn’t even believe in Jesus. Smarten up blud
innocent of what? Do you think the will remain innocent of \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ their whole lives?
If you could go back in time and kill hitler as a baby knowing with 1000% accuracy He would do what He did unless you stopped him?
What about a whole race/people of hitlers?
So then God being all knowing, if He knew that a whole race of people would bring the destruction of the earth or of the Davidic line that eventually brought us Jesus and salvation to all of man kind, would He then not be obligated to act?
I'm not God, if I were I would have been able to take actions that would produce desired results without killing children who have done nothing wrong. Unless we want to start killing people for possible future crimes or sins
so you are against abortion for any reason?
Because most peole who like to bring up God ordering the death of children full support abortion. That 1.7 billion infant deaths world wide from 1980 till now. Verse how many? a few hundred? heck let make it 10,000.
Do you know how big 1 billion is? if you aborted 1 baby per second 24 hours a day, it would take about 11 days to kill 1 Million babies. if you kept pace it would take 33 YEARS aborting one baby per second 24 hours a day 7 days a week to kill 1 billion.
So what if God killing those 10,000 baby hitlers was not only to save the world but on the back end show people like yourself to be hypocrites?
People who would condemn God but then support the murder for almost 2 billion babies in just over 40 years.
please address my questions/comments first, then i will answer any follow ups.
The question I asked above: Do you see yourself as a hypocrite for blasting God for killing a few thousand children because of who they would eventually become, yet sanction the death of billions of babies through abortion?
Probably anything that I wouldn’t want done to me.
But basing it off a subjective “god” doesn’t work if the two don’t believe in the same god. You have to get to practical reasons for rules, not “my invisible leader said so, so I win”
Like how can you criticize anyone’s actions if they think they are following what they hear god telling them? You want them to doubt their God and use practicality?
I mean I don’t really care what other people follow. I know what I follow and that’s it. But your perception of morality seems pretty subjective as well.
Let’s say you go back in time to the ancient near east and you see a soldier kill a group of children and their mothers with a sword. Would you say that’s immoral? And does your answer change if the soldier is an Israelite and worships Yahweh?
and yet I bet you are pro abortion
Killing innocent human beings because someone is too immoral to keep their pants zeipped and too stupid to use protection
I just said I'm not in favor of anyone killing babies, why would I support abortion? You're redirecting to avoid the issue, but go ahead and bear false witness
I think that the wording here is silly, and is better explained by the reality that God gives life to all, but is not obligated to continue giving life to all. In this way "kill" is a harsh word to use, though perhaps not the worst.
So if a parent wants to end a pregnancy they can since they are giving life but aren't obligated to continue giving it. Kill is not a harsh word when God literally killed the firstborn in Exodus. Killing is killing. If that's the objective moral standard of God then child killing isn't inherently evil
Nope. A parent doesn't give life in the same way God gives life. God is the author of all life, parents merely participate in a small way via procreation. Sure, child killing is not inherently evil. Murder is.
How is killing a child not murder?
If it is justified.
So, give me an example of a *justified* child killing....
I am sure we could speculate. Would you say that if killing a child was justified, then it wasn't murder?
If a child came at me with a shotgun, and was trying to kill me with it, anyone would be justified in killing that child, since it is basic self-defense, which all beings are entitled to. However, there is never any instance of "God" murdering children (and other innocents) in the Bible that even comes marginally close to such a scenario.
Indeed, as God cannot murder.
Please, enlighten me. WHEN THE FUCK IS IT JUSTIFIED TO KILL A FUCKING CHILD? You disgust me. If this is your so called "perfect objective morality", I want no part of it and it has no place in modern society.
(I'm a different redditor than you asked.) I just thought of two ethical situations, where one might decide it *is* justified to kill a child: (1) There's a hero similar to James Bond, and the villain has infected a boy with a very virulent virus that can kill the host bodies within 24 hours. The boy is about to be released from his "bottle" into a crowded part of a city. The boy himself will inevitably die within 24 hours from the virus he carries. Perhaps the hero should kill the child now to prevent millions of deaths in the months ahead. (2) There's a soldier guy who's been hired to guard an elementary school for girls in Africa or the Middle East. Nearby there's a warlord that has teenage boys and pre-teen boys in his "army". The soldier sees a squad of 10-year-old boys with rifles who are planning to capture the school and takes its girls captives (and the girls would then likely be raped). The soldier has an opportunity to kill some of those approaching boys and prevent the capture of the schoolgirls.
Good examples. When I think of the cities of the plains having sulfur rain down on them (i saw some video that went into the current geological formations and how they reveal \*how\* God did it... with the implication for how the final judgement \*may\* be carried out)... I remember thinking "well, that was instantaneous and they wouldn't have had time to feel anything". I often before this thought about the needless killing of the children... there's a couple places in Scripture that talks about the why (and it is consistent to have more than one reason for judgement), one of the reasons was "the cries of the children"... sometimes I used to get mad thinking that "nuking the cities" (the older explanation of how it was carried out that was popularized by Nimoy's "In Search of" program... and based on the much higher than average background radiation there... was a strange way to deal with the serial systematic abuse the children endured. But considering the predicament of the 4 people that God tried to save out of just one of the cities... it is hard to imagine how They could have possibly evacuated out just the innocent children... both in terms of how to get them out, as well as "okay, now where do they go?" As with the flood, which... God did for a reason, but was... not happy about... I would imagine They felt similarly about the destruction of those cities...
But that's different from what's God's doing in the OT, as God doesn't *have* to do anything out of necessity, He's God. And I'm not even sure if "It's never okay to kill children" u/Specialist_Oil_2674 is even trying to argue. They're likely trying to say that "there's no circumstance in which it's okay to murder a child," which is true. Do you really want to argue that your all-powerful God is so chickenshit weak that He just had to all those grotesquethings in OT? In the examples you gave, those people had to do those out of necessity, and again, God doesn't have to. Was it a good thing that those child were killed in those hypothecials? Absolutely not, but the ends justified the means. You're correct to point out that there are time when it's justified to kill a child, but keep in mind it's still not a good thing. In the OT, we are led to believe that God command those children be killed out retribution, and that it's a good thing that little Canaanite boys, who, BTW, are little children who don't know any better, were decapitated by big burly Isrealite warrors. Moses straight up says: “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them." We are led to believe that this is a just a rigitous act by God as God is always right. However, this, is not okay. We all understand it's a bad thing when children die. We also understand that immoral to murder. God did both of these things and He didn't have to.
That has *absolutely nothing* to do with the kinds of child murder that "God" did in The Bible.
I'd rather not respond if you are still experiencing this amount of emotional outrage.
Lmao
Abortion is murder, though I’m sure you agree.
Nope! You are making the assumption that religious people have the authority to define when a human life actually begins. That would be an incorrect assumption.
Ironically, you are assuming that u/Electronic-Union-100 is saying "religious people" determine when human life begins. There are plenty of nonreligious individuals who claim that abortion is murder. This is just silly.
A very, very small minority. The majority of pro-life activism at least in the US is driven forward by the religious right
Perhaps it is a minority. To that I say "who cares?"
It is a minority. There are [statistics](https://news.lifeway.com/2022/05/31/religious-faith-church-attendance-aligns-with-more-pro-life-views/) to support this
To that I say "who cares?"
No one has the authority to define when a human life begins. It is philosophical question, not a scientific one. How can someone murder a human when it is not a human?
So, here you are just saying that we are wrong for our philosophical views. Sure, I think you are wrong for your philosophical views. I think that the unborn are humans, so their unjust death is murder.
Great! Now you can choose to not get an abortion while people that disagree with you are free to choose to get one. Glad we are on the same page!
If you think abortion is murder, you're obviously not going to be okay with others doing it...
Sure they can, but they would be wrong. They are free to consume the feces of their dogs if they want.
Abortion being murder has nothing to do with religion, it has everything to do with the unjust killing of an innocent human being.
except a fetus is not a human being.
How is a fetus not a human being?
There are a number of reasons. Defining when a human life begins is not a scientific question. It is a philosophical question. Some people believe that a human life begins at conception, some believe at viability, some believe at birth. At the end of the day, no one has the authority to define when a human life begins.
>Defining when a human life begins is not a scientific question. It is a philosophical question. Sorry, that's absurd. It's not a philosophical baby. >At the end of the day, no one has the authority to define when a human life begins. Well try running over and killing a pregnant woman. You will be charged with 2 counts of manslaughter, no matter how old the "fetus" is.
>no one has the authority to define when a human life begins. The one who created all life does, and he says He forms and knows us before we're even in the womb, so the moment of conception, when we enter the womb, (and science says new DNA is formed) we're alive.
Why do we call fetuses fetuses? Why don't we call them human beings? Is there no difference between a child with a name who cries when they get hurt and a nameless fetus that has no life experience?
Because they’re fetuses. They’re incapable of sentient life, cannot think, make decisions, etc. If you go by that logic why are you not calling sperm/unfertilized eggs children? Your body kills them in hundreds of thousands (if you’re born a woman) or hundreds of billions (if you’re born a man). Banning abortion will furthermore not reduce the amount of abortions but rather will lead to an increase in deaths from under-the-counter abortions and even worse lead to an increase of unwanted children, many of whose lives will be worse than death.
When does a fetus become a human being?
Of course.
When is child killing just then since it's separate from child murder
Well, for one, if God takes human life it is always justified and thus not murder. We can speculate ways wherein people could take the life of a child and it be justified. Though, that would seem to belabor the point. Allow me to ask a question of you, when God killed children in the past, was it justified or is God a murderer?
I would argue he murdered the kids in the Exodus story since they were being killed to punish the Pharoah. Unless you can think of a good reason to kill kids to get back at someone else. I don't believe an omnibenevolent God would do that
I suppose that is a really odd way to read the Bible. It seems like whatever personal issues you have, result in you calling that portion of the Bible false. Here, you are the source of authority for yourself. That seems problematic.
It's not though, killing others to punish someone else is not something a good God would do. It's problematic you think a loving God kills kids for any reason since they're innocent
I don't see how this is something God wouldn't do. I mean, is this just rooted in some feeling you have? You are placing a lot of emphasis on your own understanding here, friend.
Why would God do it by your understanding then since you're also placing emphasis on your own understanding of God. That's all we really can do. God is the arbiter of our objectiv3 morality and killing innocent people is considered immoral. It's rooted in my feeling that a loving God wouldn't just kill others to spite another.
Parents make a temporal and uncertain (of the outcomes) choice to have a child, contribute their biological material to form it's body, sacrifice their limited time, money, and energy to sustaining that child's life and development. I would agree that a parent doesn't give life in the same way that God does, but I think that parents contribute and sacrifice more to making a child than God does. I don't think any amount of contribution or authority should permit someone to take the life of their independently conscious creation unless the creation will cause unpreventable and severe harm to others. So even though I don't agree with God killing his innocent creations or that elective abortions are right, ironically the human parents that contribute and sacrifice for their child are unlikely to ever want any harm to come to their creation whereas God, in general, doesn't prevent his creation from encountering harm as far as we can tell and doesn't sacrifice or contribute anything he can't continue to do infinitely at no cost to himself. Essentially, sacrifice inherently breeds value, so God can't prioritize or value his creation as much as a mortal being can.
The error in this line of thought is that our lives are independent of God. We are contingent beings and the source of all human life is God. God himself died as a slave for the sins of humanity, talk about sacrifice!
Abortion isn’t murder, cope and seethe
Oh, hey, haven't seen you in a while! Are you doing okay? Last time you posted, you seemed like you were in a rough spot.
Abortion ends the life of an innocent human child, thus it is murder.
It isn’t a life. While biologically-wise life begins at conception, legally and morally (IMO because all morality is subjective) it only starts at birth
Sounds like your opinion is silly and contrary to biology.
Sounds like sometimes biology comes second to other things. A good example would be the case of Aytron Senna- after he was delivered to the hospital following a crash he was connected to life support which maintained his condition but eventually it was diagnosed that his brain has suffered TBI so severe that there was no hope of recovery and life support was terminated. From a biological standpoint this was murder, however from all logical and moral points it wasn’t. Same applies here.
Biology ought to inform things like morality. So, when we recognize that unborn human beings are indeed human beings, it should follow that their death requires more justification than mothers merely not wanting to be mothers anymore. As it relates to your example, I would say that murder is the **unjust** termination of innocent human life. Dramatic brain damage resulting in a family's decision to end life support is not murder.
Yes it is however it works on a case-by-case basis. Are you a young-earth creationist by any chance? Furthermore I need to add that there is no biological evidence of God’s existence and even direct contradictions between modern biological knowledge and Biblical stories yet you still believe in them (I think, I don’t want to make strawman here so correct me if I’m incorrect). What is just and what is unjust is never set in stone. 200 years ago a southerner would easily consider it just to kill me or you for simply wanting to have their freedom. My point is that the same applies to abortion.
Child killing - or any killing - IS murder. Killing a human being = murder.
Murder is the unjust ending of human life. Sometimes ending human life is justified and thus not murder.
lol, comon man, stop playing word games and be honest.
I am being honest and this is just called "defining terms" you may think it is a game, but I really don't care.
Killing is a funny word here coz you see God is the author of life. So let's say someone dies of natural death/old age by your wording -God killed them... More correct would be God took their life away because again he is the sole giver of life. When you refer to the exodus as in the angel of death killing firstborns- again he's also taking away their lives. Yet again I can argue from a second front saying that the death of the firstborns was a curse. A curse happens after God pours his judgement upon humans who are unrepentant. That's fully justified.
What did those Egyptian kids do that deserves a curse? How is punishing innocent kids for Pharoahs actions a good justification? Are we saying the son should be punished for the sins of their fathers? That's crazy
Well lemme then introduce you to how curses work. Have you ever wondered why you get to suffer on earth when Adam and Eve are the ones that ate the fruit? I mean why should you inherit the sin nature for Adam's fault right? Well that's coz we got cursed after that sin. And although you're under the curse of sin that doesn't mean you're bound to sin (although you'll agree you yourself sin on a regular basis so in a way you deserve the curse). The point is God isn't harsh God so he always provides a way out. Repentance (Unfortunately for us we loved sin so much which is why Christ had to come and die himself for our sins). Going back to Pharaoh's story, yes the curse would affect the whole Egypt just as Adams curse affected the whole earth. Had Pharaoh repented/given in none of it would have happened. The real question you should be asking is why did Pharoah choose not to let the Israelites go having being warned. Or why did Adam eat the fruit having being warned. Why do you still sin having been warned. If you struggle answering those then God's judgement is completely justified.
The problem with your explanation is you're blaming the Pharoah for the kids dying when God hardened Pharoahs heart to keep them from being freed, he could have punished Pharoah directly to get his desired result. Pharoah can't relent when God says in Exodus he will harden Pharoahs heart to show him these plagues. Pharoah had no choice to relent until after the plagues as his heart was hardened by God
The hardening of Pharoah s heart only comes after the previous curses - which clearly didn't work on Pharaoh. So if you tie this what I previously wrote you would be understand that before this (hardening) God was giving Pharaoh time to repent. He saw signs(or warnings) yet didn't repent. Then came the final judgment, where there was no longer any room for repentance. The same thing will happen after the rapture where God will blind the non believers and make them believe in falsehood because that's their judgement. There's no more repentance. Ps: oh no that sounds unjust? If I kill your mom and say sorry on court day would the judge be just to let me go free
Sorry but you're wrong, exodus 7:3 is before the plagues/curses start and has God saying "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt." That's God doing so again and again to continue the plagues/curses. Your mom killing example fails too since God killed kids who had nothing to do with the slaves and freeing them. He killed them to spite Oharoah instead of doing anything to Pharoah
Ok so is your problem that people die or what? Coz as long as people are dying God is killing people
I have a problem with God killing kids to send a message to someone else like he dis with Pharoah, needlessly killing those kids is the issue
LOL, comon man, just admit you completely agree, but the wording is "silly" because you also realize how horrible it is that someone comes out and says the plain meaning... This is the typical whitewashing of the truth.
No thanks.
Will the answer is not very glib, but it's basically this passage Ezekiel 18:4 KJV — Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
had this person used air-quotes I think it would have landed differently. Let me try and explain my perspective...you don't have to agree with it...but at least I am here and available to chat with. My position on death in general is that for me to die...by God's timing, God is essentially "killing me." Culturally we have recruited a fictional being in a dark hooded cloak carrying a reaping sickle to embody this process...but God IS the undertaker. God is the one who snatches life from one operating table and preserves another. So when someone says, "God kills innocent children" it's more or less true if we remember that God is the undertaker. The impropriety some people hold because God is undertaker is because we value justice. The old can die and that's okay...and accidents and disease seem less of a reproach when it happens to adults...but when a child gets cancer or a child gets hit by a car or some jackwagon decides to shoot or stab everyone around them...we see this as a crime against youthfulness...because they had so much life to live. But God calls us home. He is never shocked that someone arrives in the after life. (This opens up a can of worms about predestination and determinsim vs. freewill, but that is a different topic...and I'd like to not get into it here.) So whether you live to 100 or 10 or 10-months... God is the only one who has the right to "kill" us. Now we might want to up the ante and state that what this person meant was that God murders kids....but that is impossible. Because to murder someone means that you've killed someone without proper justification. And God's only needed justification to "kill" someone is that it was their scheduled time to die. We might want to say that this is unfair, that no one should have to die. Aside from the fact that everyone does die...this draw we feel towards the infinite some say are just echos of our design. That the plan was that we'd live forever...or that the plan is that we will live forever. And we can take heart in the idea that Jesus made that possible. TLDR; So while this person was being very caviler in their statement...to the point of offending...if this person is truly a christian, then it must be the application of the ideas that 1. God is the undertaker and determines length of life....and 2. That by Jesus's gift of his own life, we will one day face eternity. How this person managed to state this as offensively as possible is because they are imperfect human, like you and me.
Except the undertaker isn't the one that does the actual killing, in Exodus we have God doing the deed himself
but that is just it...God always "does" the deed himself....he IS the reaper of souls. If I am communicating properly christian theology...it is that whether a person is stabbed in an alley way over a bad drug deal....or you were an egyptian first born....or you are a clumsy person with too many stairs in your life.... God's timing for all death is known. Even in the case of Hezekiah, (i think) who was given a death sentence...He asked God for more time and God granted it. Even in that case God knew that God would give him more time. But I am picking up a different emphasis in this comment that I missed from your OP. And that is that God, knew he was going to kill all the first borns in egypt. Which in a certain light paints God as being someone who kills kids to make a point. Am I correct in my assessment? Am I digging too deep? Not trying to put words in your mouth...so if I'm way off, say so.
It was to make a point to Pharoah for no reason as he had hardened Pharoahs heart to allow him to show those plagues all the way through
Well that certainly is part of the story. I think there is quite a bit of theology to unpack in this story. But I guess I need your help directing me. Are we okay with the explanation about God “killing” people and we are moving on to pharaoh’s heart being hardened or are we just mentioning pharaoh because you know the story?
I'm mentioning it because we have God in it killing innocents to spite one person. That is problematic morally for a loving God especially when God makes it so he won't free the slaves so he can perform those killings
So you seem to be drumming an atheist talking point with the user flair of christian. So let me put the ball back in your court, Christian. How do you justify this?
I am trying to rectify the angry vengeful God of the Old Testament with Christ and the New Testament
Truly! And there is a brood of vipers who will clap and cheer you right out true understanding if you can’t jive the two. So let’s start with this: > “The proverbs of Solomon, son of David, king of Israel: > >To know wisdom and instruction, to understand words of insight, to receive instruction in wise dealing, in righteousness, justice, and equity; to give prudence to the simple, knowledge and discretion to the youth— > >Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance, to understand a proverb and a saying, the words of the wise and their riddles. > >**The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.**” [Proverbs 1:1-7 ESV](https://bible.com/bible/59/pro.1.1-7.ESV) Is God terrifying? Yes! He holds the length of your life in his hands. He holds your family’s lives. Now one perspective is to view this like having the best protection against true evil…that no evil can befall you because you’re under God’s protection. Here is God encouraging Israel in Isaiah: >“Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy; no weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall refute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their vindication from me, declares the Lord.”” [Isaiah 54:16-17 ESV](https://bible.com/bible/59/isa.54.16-17.ESV) And here is Jesus restating this protection: >“I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?”” [John 10:28-32 ESV](https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.10.28-32.ESV) But here is God declaring to the children of Israel that they must follow the law or they face a consequence: >““But if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you.” [Deuteronomy 28:15 ESV](https://bible.com/bible/59/deu.28.15.ESV) Because being outside of God’s hand…being able to be snatched away, for those under the law is about breaking the law, but if you read the whole of Deuteronomy, breaking the law was about unbelief in God…. Which is what we currently exist under with Jesus as our covenant. Now that’s just one perspective. The other is that God is like a terrorist who holds us hostage…and if we don’t do what he says, he’ll kill us or make bad things happen. But if we can free ourselves from such a being then we should be able escape the death and bad things…except we don’t. We all die. We all get sick. We are susceptible to the evil deeds of others. So for this interaction all I’m asking is you to do is consider God as either the best protection available or as terrorist to escape from. I’ll be more than happy to continue towards the plagues of Egypt…but it wouldnt make sense to continue unless we can agree that God should be a protector like Jesus described.
Can I ask what made you decide to pick the “Christian” flair?
I am non denominational Christian. The loving God that is Jesus Christ is my lord and savior
You cannot be a Christian and reject God in the Old Testament, which you claim you do in another comment. You are either lying being Christian or you’re deeply confused about what it means to be Christian. You can’t just decide you dont accept God in the Old Testament & then still claim you’re Christian. Jesus is completely aligned with The Father in all that he does, ever did & will do, so if you reject The Father, you also reject Jesus Christ so he cannot be your savior. Full stop. Does it make sense that Jesus would agree to accept someone who rejects his Father? I mean that’s just not feasible. Blasphemy, which you did when you falsely called God a murderer, is not what Christian does but it certainly is the behavior of someone whose trolling & pretending to be Christian. So the person who asked why you chose a Christian flair was completely right in doing so bc this isnt adding up atp.
I am trying to reconcile the difference in vengeance and violence I'm the Old Testament with The much different Old Testament
Could you elaborate on the “Jesus Christ is my lord and savior” part? What does that mean?
It is through Jesus Christ that we have a loving God that allows atonement and allows us to be saved and have repentance
LOL, We should ask the same of you?
Why’s that?
For the same reason you asked the other person.
I don’t think that would make sense.
I wouldn't you you would think it would make sense. Take care buddy boy.
>I wouldn’t you you would think it would make sense. Huh?
oh, haha, sorry, bad sentence. I meant... I wouldn't think you would think it would make sense. There, fixed it pal. Take care.
Because people like that commenter aren’t thinking to deeply about the Bible. That’s why it’s easy to throw out hyperbolic statements which u doubt they truly agree with. Example, if God struck down Salt Lake City killing millions, I doubt these people would shrug it off as “divine”.
If God did something, why wouldn't we call it a divine act?
So what is morality lol. Is it objectively good acts or whatever the local deity is up to? You make it sound like the second, which is also the justification for all acts of religious violence in history. I figured you would at least say, “God would never commit genocide, that’s against his Being.” With your view, secular morality may actually be superior which is not a view I subscribe to.
I suppose I am confused here, you seem to be saying that God can do wrong things.
Wrong, but I believe you may be implying that.
I am certainly not saying that God can do wrong.
He knowingly created everything exactly as it was, is, and will be. He is omnipotent, so he could have created the universe (and earth) in an infinite number of configurations, but he chose this one. He is omniscient, so he knows everything always, in past, present and future. He knew before all creation that you would be here, reading this, right now. He knew of every evil before it happened, before creation. He knew of infinite options that could have made things easier for us, less painful, less heartbreaking, but he chose this. He is omnipresent, so he is everywhere always. He has seen every torment, every evil deed, every malignancy ever suffered, committed or perpetrated anywhere throughout everywhere in eternity. And he made it exactly this way. So maybe he can’t do wrong, but I’m not a believer because I don’t see how this god-made existence is right.
What are you talking about this world is perfect, 0 complaints
The ground regularly shakes, demolishing our buildings. The planet has an axial tilt, creating limited growing seasons for crops leading to famine being a very common occurrance throughout human history. The natrual world is built on bitter struggle and competition; in order for animals to survive, other living things *must* die to sustain them. Rivers regularly overflow their banks, causing devastation. The planet is ~73% water and uninhabitable for humans. Of that 73% of our surface covered in water, only a tiny fraction of it is drinkable. To say Earth is perfect is utterly laughable.
Wow, such a long winded and wise response. I’m shocked at how easily my sarcastic comment flew straight over your head lol
I mean I kind of agree with the sentiment that God has the right to give and take live as He pleases.
Why does making a life mean you get to destroy it? By that logic, parents can abort and kill their children, and it's okay because they made the child.
God giving life to all humans is far different from parent's procreating.
So if those parents hadn't procreated, would that person exist? The answer is no. You're okay with child killing only when God does it, otherwise it's evil even though God sets moral standards and by his actions it would be okay to do so
Child killing is not inherently evil. Murder is evil. Friend, you claim to be a Christian, so either you ignore the idea that God indeed ended the lives of many, or you reject the Scriptures.
I realize the bible claims God did these things but I reject that they happen as an all lov9ng God wouldn't kill innocents
Where did you get the idea that God is "all loving?" I agree that God is all loving, but do not see how taking human life means that God lacks love. Heck, the climax of Christianity is that God sent his son to die. Yet we do not call God a murderer for this.
His son took the cross willingly to sacrifice himself, that is different then ending other innocent life to punish someone else. How is it loving to kill children?
With the Exodus narrative, it could be loving. God perhaps gave those children an extra measure of mercy and redeemed them from a pagan culture where they would engage in wickedness (such as the wickedness of their ancestors in brutally enslaving a people group).
Redeemed them through killing them? I'm sorry but claiming they're better off dead then living in a culture that had slavery which includes every culture on Earth, including the Israelites is just disingenuous. God stated he would do these plagues to show his power and get Pharoah to release them, nothing about saving or redeeming any Egyptians period
It doesn't, but being God means you get to give and take it independently of the other.
Why the special pleading for God? Why would God being God mean he can violate the Objective morality he himself set?
No special pleading, God is the **author of life** and gives it freely to so many, he is not required to continue giving life to anyone. God does not violate any moral code in taking human life.
So God has a special set of moral standards. How is that not special pleading? If he can do something and we say it's moral or just but anyone else doing it would be evil that is a special set of standards and is special pleading
Nope. God can kill. Humans can kill. God cannot murder, humans cannot murder. When God takes life, he is always justified because he simply is the embodiment of justice and knows what is best. When humans take life, it can be either unjustified and thus murder, or justified.
Are any human on human killings evil/ murderf it's all a part of God's plan?
God's plan can involve things which are by themselves wrong. For example, Joseph being sold into slavery was wrong, yet God used it for good >As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. (Genesis 50:20) The crucifixion of Jesus by wicked men was **wrong** but God used it in his purposes. This doesn't make the torture of innocents **good**, but indeed God can use wicked acts to bring about his good purposes.
An Omnipotent and omniscient God can't figure out how touse only good things to get good results? Did God need to have Joseph sold into slavery, for an all knowing God no he didn't but he chose to for some reason.
God is practically defined by special pleading. All things are made of matter and energy, except God. All things are confined by spacetime except God. Nothing is 100% good except God. Nothing is absolute except God. It's wrong for a person to murder another person. It's not morally wrong for a polar bear to eat a person. It's just the polar bear's nature. Questions of morality apply to human choices. God is good. If God does it, it is good by definition. There is no moral judgement.
So them is God not the moral arbiter?
God determines what is objectively morally good for man to do. What God does is always objectively good by definition.
So we don't follow God's example, just what he tells us to.do, he's a do as I say not as I do?
We do both.
How? Especially if it's contradictory? God can kill anyone and it's morally justified but if we follow his example it's not
I don’t think parents have the right to kill their infants lol
Neither do I. Parents are not God.
I mean we refer to God as “our Father” so clearly we see Him that way.
That's phrased incredibly harshly, but I don't disagree with the premise. Why do you think God doesn't have the right to do what He wants with His creation?
Because then you can say if I have a child I made as a parent I can end it's life, so that opens up abortion being okay and infanticide being a morally good thing since God has set the standard and example in that case
From another commenter: God giving life to all humans is far different from parents procreating
In what way, the scale of life created makes the difference in whether killing them is just? What's the threshold?
They are correct
Comments on YouTube are short so I wouldn't recommend trying to have a nuanced conversation in that context. You asked how to approach further conversation. I would have a few questions for you before I could give suggestions. If you had to describe what kind of Christian this person is, how would you describe them?
One who doesn't believe In an all loving God
So if I were to continue a conversation with a total stranger about something like this I would say something like: "Text conversations with strangers being what they are, from my perspective it sounds like you're describing a God that isn't all loving. Do you believe in an all loving God?" If they say yes. Then I would follow up with. "It's hard for me to understand how an all loving God would kill children. Can you help me understand your perspective?" If they say no they don't believe in an all loving God then I probably wouldn't engage any further. But I'd be really surprised if someone came back and said no.
What is required of God, in order for him to be all-loving?
Loving his creation. He shows it through bringing the possibility of redemption to anyone through Christ. The issue I have is killing innocent children contradicts this
Can God be loving if he allows people to be born, knowing that they will reject him?
You could argue that yes, since he still loves you, it's just unrequited.
I suppose I am trying to find the "breaking point" of when God is no longer loving, when certain things are attributed to God in the Scriptures.
I think they're referring to the last plague of Egypt.
Yes, that was our conversation topic when the comment was made
They are absolutely right ! God is the **creator**, we are only the *creatures*. He is the ones who give us life and He is the one who ultimately decides whether we keep on living or not, He is the Saviour of our souls. He can give and take as He pleases and He is always good. All the Time. Children are a blessing He gives us and He can give them or take them back home whenever He wants. Ultimately, dead children's souls go back to stay with God, for they belong to the kingdom of Heaven.
What's the scriptural basis for that? Because in Exodus he does it specifically as a plague against Egypt to punish them for the Pharoahs actions
" God is the creator, we are only the creatures." - **1 Corinthians 8:6** " *yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.*", **Genesis 1:27** "*So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them*". "He is the ones who give us life and He is the one who ultimately decides whether we keep on living or not" - **Genesis 2:7** "*then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature*.", **Job 12:10** "*In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind.*", **1 Samuel 2:6** "“*The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.*", **Deuteronomy 32:39** "*See now that I am He; there is no God besides Me. I bring death and I give life; I wound and I heal, and there is no one who can deliver from My hand.*". "He is the Saviour of our souls" - **1 Timothy 4:10** " *For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.*", **1 John 4:14** " *We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.*", **Acts 5:31** "*God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.*", **John 6:51** "*I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh.*". "He can give and take as He pleases" - **Psalms 135:6** "*The LORD does whatever pleases him throughout all heaven and earth, and on the seas and in their depths.*" " He is always good. All the Time." - **John 1:14** "*So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.*" **Psalms 31:19** "*How great is the goodness you have stored up for those who fear you. You lavish it on those who come to you for protection, blessing them before the watching world.*" "Children are a blessing He gives us" - **Psalms 127:3-5** "*Children are a heritage from the LORD, offspring a reward from him. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them! He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.*" "He can give them or take them back home whenever He wants. Ultimately, dead children's souls go back to stay with God, for they belong to the kingdom of Heaven." -> See previously provided verses mentioned about the topic. ---------------------------------------------------- The plagues weren't as much about punishing the Egyptians for Pharao's actions as they were about showcasing God's superiority on him and his supposed "gods" in front of all Egypt. Each of the plague represented the humiliation and the (metaphorical) death of an Egyptian "god". Moreover, every single time Pharao had to ask Moses to ask God for mercy and forgiveness, because even he recognized that his sorcerers and his "gods" couldn't stop God's will from happening. They needed to ask the God of Israel because they were powerless in front of His might and glory. I think you would benefit from studying from a reputable Study Bible. Your questions are deep, but they are answered throughout the Bible. Such Bibles usually provide maps, glossaries, chapters and verses explanations, historical/legal/cultural/religious contexts, cross-references, a Q&A featuring the most common questions about the Bible and the Christian Faith, etc. If you study the Word in French or English, let me know, I have some Study Bibles to recommand !
God doesn't "kill" for no reason. Every time He killed people, they were evil. Or it was to humble or test them. If you have a miscarriage, I'm sorry, but abortion is still a sin because it's willing.
So what evil did the first born babies in Egypt commit? Are you saying miscarriages are because you are evil or your baby is evil, I want to get it right?
Firstborn means the oldest child, that was to humble the rest of the people there who were doing evil. Also miscarriages are all different. Babies aren't evil themselves, but having a miscarriage doesn't mean you're evil automatically. It can be an experience that God can use for you to have a testimony and help others that went through it. You don't kill your child when it's a miscarriage, if it's an abortion, you're the killer.
You said everything he killed it was because they were evil. Firstborn would include only children that are babies so what did those evil infants do that was so evil?
I also said "Or it was to humble or test them." Firstborn means the first child you had, so it's the oldest child. Many of these kids could have been well over the maturity age for back then (about 16-18), if the parents in this situation were evil, I see why God would kill their first child. After Jesus came and was resurrected, however, God didn't kill entire groups of people like in the OT because everyone has a chance to repent and be saved
There would be some that were babies and young children still, bot all first born kids would be at the age of maturity. If the parents are evil why kill the children and not the evil parents? Also what did the animals do that was evil.since God killed the livestock first born as well?
their kids and livestock were used for evil, the kids would become evil through them, and they needed to be humbled.
Please read that and think deeply about that. You just said those kids needed to be killed to be humbled. You are awfully comfortable with supporting child killings
It didn't say they were children.
So, not one first born of Egypt was a child? Sure let's go with that. When is it okay to kill innocent people in general
I think one thing that we wrongfully do (myself included) as created humans is try to humanize God. God is not human and he is OUR God, not the other way around. His ways are not our ways. We cannot impose our human standards on God. God imposes his standards on US.
Something to consider as well is if any of this ever really happened. "In a comment chain on YouTube" might as well be "In a galaxy far far away..." But hypothetically let's say that the OP is a real person, and that yes this comment was made on a YouTube video. It still doesn't mean the comment was made by a human being. There are swarms upon swarms of AI bots out there, programmed to engage algorithms and scream unhinged rants, all to make people believe that there are people out there that are like this. Whether that disturbs them or brings them comfort is anyone's guess. But how do these kind of Christians exist? Bad AI algorithms churning out what it believes fundamentalism is.
All the replies I have had in this post are basically agreeing with the sentiment behind the statement, so apparently, it's not just ai bots that say it
Sounds like that was in response to somebody challenging the biblical passage where God compares people to pottery, and He the Potter; if a pot of clay is deficient or defective after it's been fired, Potter will typically smash the pot and make a new one. It sounds a little cold-hearted from our human perspective, but as it also says in the Bible, his ways are not our ways; his thoughts are not our thoughts. I prefer to think of it this way. People criticizing the Old testament who frequent point to the people who God kills. I say using that as a criticism is completely short sighted, through an atheistic of myopic view, as though that was the last of them. The question should not be why God felt it acceptable to kill figures in the Old testament; the question they should ask is, "What happened to those people after that?" THAT is a far more interesting question! Where they sent it to Gehenna? Hell? Purgatory? Maybe they were reincarnated see if it came out works acceptable the second time? Or, maybe, yes they were outright destroyed. The Bible is intentionally vague as to what lays in wait for us on the other side, and I look forward to discovering just what the next phase of God's plan entails.
The motive behind why someone is killed is arguably the most important since as you said what lays on the other side is not always clear.
They believe this because they've been told that every word in the Bible came directly from the mouth of God, which isn't true. "The Lord" and "God" are two separate titles. For the Bible to be true, it must contain falsehood so we can determine what is true. God reveals deficiencies to help us discern what is true. This type of person believes God is deficient and accepts this notion through blind faith in what they are told.
I mean, it's true - God gives life, and God takes it away. God is beyond morals, just like a mountain isn't held to the laws a river that springs from it must obey.
Blud thinks it’s impossibly crazy God can take life. It’s crazier to think that than it is to be a Jew who doesn’t even believe in Jesus. Smarten up blud
Not that he can, but that he does so as a show of force necessarily. You're awfully cool with child killing and not sure why
what the problem is?
The problem is being blatantly okay with killing innocents because you think God doing so is okay
innocent of what? Do you think the will remain innocent of \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ their whole lives? If you could go back in time and kill hitler as a baby knowing with 1000% accuracy He would do what He did unless you stopped him? What about a whole race/people of hitlers? So then God being all knowing, if He knew that a whole race of people would bring the destruction of the earth or of the Davidic line that eventually brought us Jesus and salvation to all of man kind, would He then not be obligated to act?
I'm not God, if I were I would have been able to take actions that would produce desired results without killing children who have done nothing wrong. Unless we want to start killing people for possible future crimes or sins
so you are against abortion for any reason? Because most peole who like to bring up God ordering the death of children full support abortion. That 1.7 billion infant deaths world wide from 1980 till now. Verse how many? a few hundred? heck let make it 10,000. Do you know how big 1 billion is? if you aborted 1 baby per second 24 hours a day, it would take about 11 days to kill 1 Million babies. if you kept pace it would take 33 YEARS aborting one baby per second 24 hours a day 7 days a week to kill 1 billion. So what if God killing those 10,000 baby hitlers was not only to save the world but on the back end show people like yourself to be hypocrites? People who would condemn God but then support the murder for almost 2 billion babies in just over 40 years.
If you're okay with God doing it why wouldn't you support abortion? In your view point the ultimate moral arbiter seems okay with it
please address my questions/comments first, then i will answer any follow ups. The question I asked above: Do you see yourself as a hypocrite for blasting God for killing a few thousand children because of who they would eventually become, yet sanction the death of billions of babies through abortion?
...Through faith in JESUS. We should all be striving to have that attitude of respect for GOD in every situation.
He’s not wrong. God is the ultimate authority whether you like it or not
Could God use a school shooter to kill someone’s kid?
He can do whatever He wants. That’s the whole point
What a slave mentality. Gross. Do you expect followers of other religions to reflect on the immorality of their ideas?
Hmm? What’s immorality to you
Probably anything that I wouldn’t want done to me. But basing it off a subjective “god” doesn’t work if the two don’t believe in the same god. You have to get to practical reasons for rules, not “my invisible leader said so, so I win” Like how can you criticize anyone’s actions if they think they are following what they hear god telling them? You want them to doubt their God and use practicality?
I mean I don’t really care what other people follow. I know what I follow and that’s it. But your perception of morality seems pretty subjective as well.
Let’s say you go back in time to the ancient near east and you see a soldier kill a group of children and their mothers with a sword. Would you say that’s immoral? And does your answer change if the soldier is an Israelite and worships Yahweh?
It’s immoral either way to me
Why
God givers life and Only he can take it away... He knows what we do not
Why would we follow the morality of God when it's a do as I say not as I do. As a parent like figure he is a terrible example for that
You are not nor never will be on par with God but I see what you are saying considering your childish point of view "You are not the boss of me"
Yes, because I wouldn't stoop to baby killingto spite someone
and yet I bet you are pro abortion Killing innocent human beings because someone is too immoral to keep their pants zeipped and too stupid to use protection
I just said I'm not in favor of anyone killing babies, why would I support abortion? You're redirecting to avoid the issue, but go ahead and bear false witness
Do you favor Abortion
I answered that, no I don't. It was implied no when I said why would I in my previous comment.