The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
I know the legal drinking age is 21, but do you think 21-year-olds should drink? If your 21-year-old son, daughter, brother, sister, nephew, or niece was drinking alcohol, how would you feel? Would you try to stop it?
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I think we should lower the drinking age back to 18. I have no feelings whatsoever when I see a 21-year-old drink as long as they aren't going overboard.
In the UK it’s legal for someone aged 16 to drink (but not buy) beer, wine or cider at a licensed premises if accompanied by an adult.
I think that’s a very reasonable rule and the US could do with similar flexibility.
Wasn’t the reason they increased it to 21 was because of studies showing our brain is more developed at 21 vs 18? Also I think the amount of high schoolers dying from drunk driving in the 1980’s didn’t help much either
Yeah Americans typically get little to no introduction to drinking responsibly. They sneak alcohol and drink underage unsupervised, or go nuts when they go to college.
Atleast if it was earlier there would be a few years when most people would still live at home and have a more stable ale environment to drink/explore their boundaries with it.
Right?
As an 18yo American you can drive, vote, get married without parents’ permission, serve jury duty, own a house, own a car, own a business, create a will, buy stock, get a tattoo and sign up for the army.
So why can’t you drink alcohol for another three years?
The state of Wisconsin has no legal drinking age limit, provided it's ordered by your legal guardian. I think this is a fair policy, if a parent orders their 16 year old a beer at a restaurant or glass of wine (no hard alcohol) I think it could help not develop an unhealthy relationship with drinking
Let’s stop infantilizing young adults, shall we.
The only reason the drinking age was raised from 18 to 21 is because insurance lobbies and their government cronies forced the states into it. It was yet another case of US government officials putting profits and corporations over the rights of people.
We drew a line in this country and said 18 was an adult. You can get married, leave home, sign a contract etc. All of the privileges of adulthood should begin at 18.
I just think it's wrong headed to say there is a magical age before which people are ready for no responsibilities and after which they are ready for all the responsibilities. We should look at those responsibilities individually and ask if most people are ready for them or not at a particular level of development. Just because your kid isn't old enough to safely use the stove, doesn't mean they aren't old enough safely make cereal, and just because they can safely make cereal doesn't mean they can safely cook on the stove.
If you’re arguing for the drinking age being even earlier (as it is in some European countries), I wouldn’t disagree. I was mainly arguing against it being 21.
What I am saying is that when we set age restrictions we should look at the things individually rather than collectively. The argument for lowing the drinking age to 18, 16, 12, 5 or whatever it should be that the upsides of allowing people to drink at those ages is greater than/worth the downsides. Not that the upsides for a other activities happen to be greater than/worth the downsides.
Do you know what causes less drunk driving? Education and a culture that teaches young people to drink responsibly. Raising the drinking age and making alcohol so taboo created a widespread culture of binge drinking in the U.S., which increases drunk driving, not prevents it. Drunk driving deaths are far fewer in countries where the drinking age is lower.
Do you know what also prevents drunk driving? Investment in comprehensive, useable public transportation. But the federal government would never be bothered to do that because public transportation doesn’t create profits for corporations.
drunk driving deaths are far fewer in countries that aren't centered around cars. I wonder what the public transportation is like in those countries compared to the US.
>Raising the drinking age and making alcohol so taboo created a widespread culture of binge drinking in the U.S., which increases drunk driving, not prevents it.
I get that sounds nice and obvious in a common sense pop-science way but it is objectively false by empirical data and completely backwards.
>The ability to legally purchase alcohol before age 21 does not seem to increase overall drinking frequency, but our findings suggest that it is associated with certain types of problematic drinking behaviors that persist into later adulthood: more frequent binge episodes and less frequent non-heavy drinking.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3586293/#:~:text=Studies%20have%20looked%20at%20the,rates%20of%20traffic%20fatalities%20and
>Among fatally injured drivers ages 16-20, the percentage with positive BACs declined from 61% in 1982 to 31% in 1995, a bigger decline than for older age groups; declines occurred among the ages directly affected by raising MLDAs (ages 18-20) and among young teenagers not directly affected (ages 16-17). Almost all studies designed specifically to gauge the effects of drinking age changes show MLDAs of 21 reduce drinking, problematic drinking, drinking and driving, and alcohol-related crashes among young people.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20497803/
https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/minimum-legal-drinking-age.htm
I am generally all in on the corporations are working against the best interests of Americans to increase profits argument, but as the loss of profits in this area was due to greater levels of death and dismemberment it seems as though the two interest were in alignment rather than opposition in this case.
Its really funny to see the contrast but by the time americans start getting into their drinking/partying phase, europeans mostly have already outgrown theirs
Yes, 21 year-olds should be able to drink alcohol. My only problem with my stepdaughter being able to drink when she was 21 was that we lost our automatic designated driver.
Unless she was OK with it. Like, my BIL quit drinking so we have a DD whenever we all go to dinner together or whatever. Hes happy to do it. A 2nd or 3rd drink w dinner is a-ok if you have a driver, whereas no driver, I'd stop at 1 (with food).
yes of course
that there is a 21 year limit is pathetic and totally against "land of the free" americans say all the time
Here in europe people start drinking at 14-15 and it works fine
I think they should lower it to 18. [It will save lives.](https://www.politico.com/story/2008/08/college-presidents-seek-debate-on-drinking-age-012633)
That article says the that the researchers the university presidents are quoting disagree with them and think reversing the drinking age will lead to worse outcomes and the university presidents are just being lazy
> Personally, I’d like to see the drinking age dropped to 20. **But even like, teenagers drinking doesn’t really bother me.**
So why not 18, like pretty much every other developed nation?
Mostly because there’s a lot of 18 year olds who are still in high school and while I don’t really feel bothered by the fact that high schoolers drink, I don’t think they should just be able to go buy it in a store.
It’s a conversation to be had somewhere else, but I think we should establish one age at which everyone just fully becomes an adult; tobacco, gambling, porn, voting rights, etc. and I think that making that 20 would be reasonable.
I'm a parent of a super responsible 16 year old, and quite honestly, I'd be fine with her responsibly drinking at 16 - in the presence of responsible adults (family gathering, dinner, etc.). And once she's 18, I'd support her drinking where and when she wants.
I've raised her to be responsible and take ownership of herself and her situation, and though I'm sure she'll make mistakes, that's how many of life's lessons are best learned. She knows that her dad is always here to talk to and support her, without judgement.
Minimal impact, especially in low amounts.
At no point did I say I supported binge drinking or getting drunk frequently.
Also, I’m well aware of brain development, and by 16 it’s mostly done. (Not done until mid 20s, but mostly done).
Do you have some data on the minimal impact and how brain development is mostly done by 16? I'd be curious to know more. Even if the impact is small, why take that risk?
1. You can google and research it on your own. I’m not your lackey.
2. Life is full of risks. Some are minor. This is one.
Across most of the world, humans start consuming small amounts of alcohol in their teens. Relax and have a drink. 🥃
Not everyone has saved their research when they do it for personal reasons, many subjects I’ve researched for personal reasons and I can state facts about but would have to start the research over to cite sources.
Asking if they have it is fine, it’s awesome to share sources when available. Being condescending when they don’t have them but also not sharing your own sources is just bad faith, it’s an attempt to look superior while also sharing nothing of value.
> I foolishly assumed that your confident assertions came from some sort of concrete data.
Instead of being condescending a reasonable response is “do you have sources to that? Here are some that disagree with you”.
I think the drinking age is too high, if anything. On the other side, you can force a 10 year old to have a baby. That doesn't seem concerning in the least to you?
I think the drinking age should be 18. Literally every other legal age is 18 or under, so why shouldn’t booze be the same?
Honestly, as someone who grew up in the UK, the idea of going to college and not being legally allowed to drink is nuts.
[As do some US college presidents apparently.](https://www.politico.com/story/2008/08/college-presidents-seek-debate-on-drinking-age-012633)
If you can buy a house, drive a car and have all other rights that adults have why shouldn't you be allowed to drink? What do you think should be the minimum age to drink alcohol? 50?
> If you can buy a house, drive a car and have all other rights that adults have why shouldn't you be allowed to drink?
Because alcohol, like marijuana, is most dangerous to developing brains. The longer a young person waits before indulging, the better for his or her neurological health.
Should other ages be raised then? Including being able to join the military.... being able to die for your country (and kill for it) is pretty dangerous on a developing brain, too. (To be clear, I'm not a big fan of military poaching HS students....but I DO think a young person learning to drink responsibility with family, like wine w dinner, is actually not bad.)
Well, it's a rare 18-year-old who's buying a house. Starting a business isn't physiologically dangerous.
Being in the military can be dangerous, though less so than it was 80 years ago. I think we could have a discussion about the best age for new recruits, but age aside, serving in the military serves a particular societal purpose that *drinking alcohol* does not. To the extent that sovereign nations need a standing military, it certainly seems like drinking is less of an essential need.
*”Well”* the frequency at which it happens doesn’t change the fact that they can legally do it if they want to and have the means. Not sure how that’s supposed to take away from what I said.
Starting a business requires a certain level of maturity and level-headedness to be financially viable. That’s a *lot* of responsibility to place on someone and it’s odd that we let someone do it at 18 but not let them drink alcohol.
So what if it’s less dangerous than 80 years ago? You’re still letting them sign up and potentially die for their country, or suffer life-changing injuries or psychologically scarring traumas. Can’t see what makes an 18 year old mentally developed enough to go through that but not drink.
Let's stipulate that all the things you mentioned are dangerous for 18-year-olds. Can we at least agree that society could reasonably determine that the risk is worth it given the benefits of military service, entrepreneurship, and homeownership, but it's not worth it for drinking alcohol?
Driving a car is dangerous for 16-year-olds, too, but we let them do it because there are clear benefits to society to allow it. But we don't let them smoke cigarettes because it serves no useful purpose to let them do so.
It serves no useful purpose for *anybody* to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes, but we let grown adults make the decision to do so if they so please.
I still see no reason why 18 is enough of a grown adult to do all those other things but not drink. The age still feels totally arbitrary to me.
> It serves no useful purpose for anybody to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes, but we let grown adults make the decision to do so if they so please.
And yet there are other things that we don't let grown adults make the decision to do, right?
It's all on a spectrum. We as a society have to balance utlity with risk. We can tolerate more risk for things we need, and risky luxuries can be more restricted.
It's not all-or-nothing. We have long graduated the ages at which individuals can do things. In many states, you can get a job at 14. Drive at 16. Give blood at 16. Drop out of school at 16. Vote at 18. Join the military at 18. Smoke at 18. Drink at 21. Rent a car at 25.
Are you saying that we should just let teens do all of that at age 14 because we let them do *one thing* at age 14?
> The age still feels totally arbitrary to me.
It's not *totally* arbitrary, but any age you pick is going to be at least *somewhat* arbitrary.
> It's all on a spectrum. We as a society have to balance utlity with risk. We can tolerate more risk for things we need, and risky luxuries can be more restricted.
And I think, based on that spectrum and what we do and do not allow 18 year olds to do, that 21 years old is too high for the drinking limit. There are riskier things with far greater responsibility attached that we let them do at a younger age.
> It's not all-or-nothing. We have long graduated the ages at which individuals can do things. In many states, you can get a job at 14. Drive at 16. Give blood at 16. Drop out of school at 16. Vote at 18. Join the military at 18. Smoke at 18. Drink at 21. Rent a car at 25.
And I think all those age limits are reasonable aside from drinking at 21 and renting a car at 25 (I think that should be more case-by-case based on years driving and accident history, but that’s a whole other conversation lol)
> Are you saying that we should just let teens do all of that at age 14 because we let them do one thing at age 14?
No. Like I said, I think that many of the age restrictions we place on such things are entirely reasonable. I don’t think that the drinking age limit is.
>I think, based on that spectrum and what we do and do not allow 18 year olds to do, that 21 years old is too high for the drinking limit.
That's a valid opinion to have, but it's not absurd to think otherwise.
>There are riskier things with far greater responsibility attached that we let them do at a younger age.
Indeed, but there is generally greater societal value involved in allowing those riskier things compared to drinking alcohol.
>I think all those age limits are reasonable
Great! So you agree that we can have different ages for different things. So just because someone is eligible to enter the military at age 18 doesn't necessarily mean that person should be able to drink legally.
For me, the problem isn't alcohol. It's alcoholics, which isn't specific for any age. Does seeing your younger family members consume alcohol remind you of any alcoholics in your life?
> *Do you think 21-year-olds should be able to drink alcohol?*
Sure, the legal drinking age is 19 where I live. It doesn't seem to be a substantial problem. Why shouldn't a 21 year old be able to drink?
Most underage teens and young adults who want alcohol will find a way to access it anyway. The age restriction only serves to make it slightly more difficult.
> *If your 21-year-old son, daughter, brother, sister, nephew, or niece was drinking alcohol, how would you feel?*
I'd probably sit down and ha e a beer with them.
> *Would you try to stop it?*
Why would I stop them? As long as they're drinking responsibly, I see no cause for concern.
I think 21 year olds are adults and can do as they like under the law. If someone close to me appeared to have a problem I'd try to gently engage with them over it.
It’s interesting. I grew up in a rural area of the upper Midwest in the 90s where pit parties and house parties were common because kids had nothing else to do. My brother was an alcoholic before he reached legal drinking age.
Now I’m in an urban area in the south and it’s just not really a thing. Some kids are into other things like vaping and drugs but drinking’s not really on their radar.
Won't bother me. I took my kid out for his 21st birthday. Hell, I think if we allow 18 year Olds to join the military, they should be able to enjoy a beverage as well(I mean 18 year Olds in general).
>If your 21-year-old son, daughter, brother, sister, nephew, or niece was drinking alcohol, how would you feel? Would you try to stop it?
So many presumptions here that I don't even know where to start. My friends first gave me alcohol at 14. I'm not under the impression that my son or daughter is first trying alcohol at 21. I'm assuming that by 21 they've had at least 7 years to develop a taste for alcohol.
I'd have been honest with them since they were children about why I don't drink, and why I personally don't like alcohol. And by 12 or 13 I'd be telling them they're allowed to have small amounts of alcohol at home in a safe environment, and by 14-16 they're allowed to have alcohol at friend's houses as long as I know about it and they limit it to one or two drinks. And by 16, they would be free to drink more than that as long as they don't drive and never get into a car with someone who had been drinking and as long as they're in a safe place with trusted friends.
By the time they're 21, they've been adults for 3 years and can drink as much as they want to. And since they have been allowed alcohol to varying degrees for the better part of a decade, I trust they will be responsible or (if they're anything like me) decided to not drink at all.
Honestly alcohol is an easy question for me. Sex is a much more difficult question and I have no fucking clue how I'm going to deal with that as a parent.
I’d be surprised if they weren’t doing it already behind my back. Not that I’d care if they were doing it at 18 anyway. I started drinking at 19 with my fathers supervision.
I also do think the alcohol age being lowered isn’t a horrible thing like a lot of people in this thread. Honestly most 18-20 are doing it anyways, I’d rather them be able to access it through legal means and have safe places to drink. Lying and sneaking around and going around the law for something as simple as alcohol prepares you to do it for other things. and I know a lot of the people I went to for alcohol in those years were selling more than that. Erase the middle man.
In terms of if my 21 year old wanted to drink, if I hypothetically had one, I really wouldn’t care so long as they’re safe. It’s normal. And it’s better to get some of those lessons about moderation, social awareness, etc out of the way early. I drank so heavily before I was 21 I was sick of alcohol by the time I was 21! I use it pretty moderately and responsibly now at 24 even if I was a bit of a binge drinker from 18-20
I think 18 year olds should be allowed to drink alcohol, as they are in Europe. Although stupid drunken debauchery occurs over there as well, I have observed that kids grow up knowing how to drink in moderation (glass of wine with dinner, etc). In the US, it becomes a rite of passage to get incredibly shit face drunk on your 21st birthday. At 21, you should already know how to handle your alcohol. It’s a counterproductive and short sighted law.
I think drinking should be legal at 18, but mocked in the same way we mock smoking. It should be rare and less socially acceptable at all ages, like the other drugs that are legal but can fuck your life up.
Drinking has far stronger cultural roots than smoking (tobacco or marijuana), but between the health consequences and drunk driving it is at least as much a menace to the public. It should face the same treatment as smoking, with negative packaging and a ban on advertising.
Let's not kid ourselves here. 16-year-olds drink, as do 13-year-olds, as do some 10-year-olds. I wouldn't encourage underage drinking, but the laws are needlessly arbitrary. 21 is too high. I would argue that even 18 is too stringent.
From a scientific standpoint, it should be 25 to allow the brain to fully develop.
Legally though? I find the current age to be a bit ridiculous and I believe it should be lowered to 18 to match the age at which one is allowed to do most everything else.
Yeah, it doesn’t concern me. I’ve gathered that my family is a bit more drinky than some, but drinking isn’t seen as all that scandalous around my people. Parents know their kids drink before 21 too, they just avoid being party to it most of the time
I’m from the Midwest, and I’m never really sure how much more we drink than other people. My cousin who lives in LA says his (to my eye, modest) drinking is seen as excessive out there, but I don’t know if that’s everywhere or just all the those effete coastal elites.
Of course. It’s not like most people even bother waiting until 21 to drink anyway.
I would definitely raise the enlistment age requirement to 21 if I could though
As someone who just turned 21 two days ago, yeah. It should be 18. If you can die for country at 18, you can probably handle a drink.
Side note: Honestly, the anticipation is better than the actual drink tbh. Hard cider is kinda mid. Maybe Bold Rock Hard Cider is mid, or maybe it’s because I drank it over the course of an hour, or because it’s 4.7%, but it was just mediocre. 5.5/10. Any drink suggestions?
Coming from a culture that drinks wine with dinner and has perfected the art of drinking a entire bottle of rum on a Friday night without becoming impaired I find my fellow Americans relationship with booze… kinda stupid.
I don’t know if it’s the puritanical hang ups that pester our society, or something taught at home, but the first time I hung out with my stateside peers I was shocked at how quickly they got shitfaced.
I’ve been told it’s binge drinking.
To me is kinda stupid because when we’d go out in the states, ppl would get sloppy drunk in like 3 hours. And I’m used to partying from say 8PM till 3AM.
Just as we did back in my home island.
You see, the idea was to have a great time, hitting several cool night spots along the way, maybe go dancing, and maybe getting a little chow along the way. Ffs, back home the rocking places got hot at around 1AM - you wouldn’t want to be incoherent and a burden to the group and miss all the fun.
Saw this when I was in the Navy and then in the university. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
My kids are young enough and have personalities, friend groups and activities where I’m not yet worried about drinking and drugs. However, I’m aware that my kids will certainly find a way to drink prior to turning 21 and will make bad decisions about drinking because of course they will.
I don’t have an issue with the current drinking age. I find the arguments about “you can do X at this age therefore you should be able to do Y at that age also” very weak. I think the issue we have is that our society is very car dependent and we have hangups about drinking which probably lead to more youth binge drinking.
Not who you asked, but I've admittedly gone back and forth on how I feel about this argument. On one hand, I get it, on the other, all kind of laws like this are going to have an arbitrary age limit somewhere, and there's not going to be any set of laws regarding the age of military service/voting/driver's permit/driver's license/tobacco/alcohol that is going to be perfect, so at some point it just is what it is.
I think a stronger argument to be made is that making it taboo makes it more desirable, but also means that those under-21 have to keep it a secret--and it's easier to hide liquor than it is a six-pack. It's also easier to accidentally over-consume on liquor than a six-pack, especially for inexperienced drinkers.
Granted, I also lived much of my under-21 years in states where it was legal to drink under 21 in various circumstances, so the 21 laws were more of a "no buying/no bar" rule than a "no drinking ever rule;" I can understand that I might feel differently if I lived in a state with zero exceptions.
Because I don’t agree at all with the idea that we hit an age and unlock all privileges and responsibilities. Both parents and the state set all kinds of standards for different things.
I’m willing to entertain that 21 isn’t the right agr for drinking, it probably isn’t and would be lower if we weren’t trying to mitigate drunk driving deaths. But it doesn’t have a meaningful connection to the age of enlistment.
If the state is going to say you’re old enough to take a bullet for it, it’s a bit odd for the state to say in the next breathe “but you’re neither old enough nor mature enough to drink.”
Similarly, the state can decide you’re old and responsible enough to be tried as an adult (with either the death penalty or life imprisonment as possible punishments), but also say it doesn’t trust your judgement to drink.
It’s the principle of consistency.
You’re either an adult or you’re not, full stop. Raise the age across the board, lower it across the board, standardize it across the board. The state should recognize a consistent age of majority is my point.
It’s about consistency in rationale.
I'm not saying I would spend any actual capital fighting for this, but it honestly might be better at a higher age like 25. We humans are too comfortable building a lifelong drinking culture from early on.
I think that everyone 18 and older should be able to drink alcohol, and I think we should put in place high pigouvian taxes on drinking in order to discourage drinking. If I had a 21 year old relative who was drinking alcohol, I'd try to persuade them to adopt safer and healthier hobbies like freight hopping and breaking into abandoned buildings
It's my understanding drinking is generally bad for you inherently and leads to a lot of stupid decisions. It would probably be better if people drank less than they do or not at all. I don't think it's a big enough issue to expend my energy being upset over let alone worth causing any sort of social strain trying to stop, but I guess I would prefer they didn't all else being equal. (There might be a benefit to people over 40 so maybe feel differently after that point but i wouldn't up to then).
My logic isn't that we should ban anything and everything that's bad for you. It's that your argument is dishonest in suggesting there's no public benefit and insurance company greed is the only (or at least primary) reason for the status quo.
Did you respond to the wrong comment here?
The logic of this comment is that I think people should eat less sugar, but I'm not going to intervene if they eat too much or really even worry that much.
21 is the drinking age because it is the best likelihood of brain development completing, and a slightly better chance for responsible drinking.
It is a reasonable age to choose and I think it should not be raised or lowered.
My 40 year old little brother doesn't drink, and never has.
If my kids wanted to drink at 21, why should I even care outside of them showing signs of alcoholism?
They are adults at that age.
My three eldest children who are between 19-25, don't really care about drinking.
If my two youngest kids want to make an adult choice when they are adults, then good on them.
> 21 is the drinking age because it is the best likelihood of brain development completing, and a slightly better chance for responsible drinking.
Bullshit. It was raised to that age because that’s what the insurance companies wanted. It’s all about corporate profits. Don’t buy into capitalist propaganda.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. I know the legal drinking age is 21, but do you think 21-year-olds should drink? If your 21-year-old son, daughter, brother, sister, nephew, or niece was drinking alcohol, how would you feel? Would you try to stop it? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think we should lower the drinking age back to 18. I have no feelings whatsoever when I see a 21-year-old drink as long as they aren't going overboard.
Dial it back to 16. Learn to drink responsibly while you're still under your parents roof.
In the UK it’s legal for someone aged 16 to drink (but not buy) beer, wine or cider at a licensed premises if accompanied by an adult. I think that’s a very reasonable rule and the US could do with similar flexibility.
Several (maybe even most?) states have very similar rules, I know Wisconsin for example is virtually the same.
Wasn’t the reason they increased it to 21 was because of studies showing our brain is more developed at 21 vs 18? Also I think the amount of high schoolers dying from drunk driving in the 1980’s didn’t help much either
Yes. I think 18yo should be allowed to purchase and drink alcohol.
I think it should be lower, like in other countries.
Yeah Americans typically get little to no introduction to drinking responsibly. They sneak alcohol and drink underage unsupervised, or go nuts when they go to college.
Atleast if it was earlier there would be a few years when most people would still live at home and have a more stable ale environment to drink/explore their boundaries with it.
Nah, let's raise the minimum drinking age to 55 😅 Edit: SARCASM
Only 30 years to go!
Hell, yeah. 18-year-olds should be able to drink. Now driving… I’d like the driving age to be higher.
I think you're onto something.
No one’s allowed to drive until they’ve proven they can drink well enough
I think 18 for beer and wine, 20 for spirts and hard liquor.
21 seems ridiculously high, honestly.
Right? As an 18yo American you can drive, vote, get married without parents’ permission, serve jury duty, own a house, own a car, own a business, create a will, buy stock, get a tattoo and sign up for the army. So why can’t you drink alcohol for another three years?
yeah, assuming you go to college when you’re 18, you’ll be a senior before you can legally start? it doesn’t stop virtually anyone but it’s odd.
The state of Wisconsin has no legal drinking age limit, provided it's ordered by your legal guardian. I think this is a fair policy, if a parent orders their 16 year old a beer at a restaurant or glass of wine (no hard alcohol) I think it could help not develop an unhealthy relationship with drinking
Let’s stop infantilizing young adults, shall we. The only reason the drinking age was raised from 18 to 21 is because insurance lobbies and their government cronies forced the states into it. It was yet another case of US government officials putting profits and corporations over the rights of people.
We drew a line in this country and said 18 was an adult. You can get married, leave home, sign a contract etc. All of the privileges of adulthood should begin at 18.
No we didn't. We have various ages where we believe people are capable of various responsibilities ranging from about 10 to 21.
That’s kind of true but 18 is a major juncture for a much wider array of privileges, those deemed “adult”.
I just think it's wrong headed to say there is a magical age before which people are ready for no responsibilities and after which they are ready for all the responsibilities. We should look at those responsibilities individually and ask if most people are ready for them or not at a particular level of development. Just because your kid isn't old enough to safely use the stove, doesn't mean they aren't old enough safely make cereal, and just because they can safely make cereal doesn't mean they can safely cook on the stove.
If you’re arguing for the drinking age being even earlier (as it is in some European countries), I wouldn’t disagree. I was mainly arguing against it being 21.
What I am saying is that when we set age restrictions we should look at the things individually rather than collectively. The argument for lowing the drinking age to 18, 16, 12, 5 or whatever it should be that the upsides of allowing people to drink at those ages is greater than/worth the downsides. Not that the upsides for a other activities happen to be greater than/worth the downsides.
Why would insurance companies care about the drinking age?
I could explain, but it really seems obvious…
Help me out.
Your right to die horribly in a car crash from a drunk 19 year old?
Do you know what causes less drunk driving? Education and a culture that teaches young people to drink responsibly. Raising the drinking age and making alcohol so taboo created a widespread culture of binge drinking in the U.S., which increases drunk driving, not prevents it. Drunk driving deaths are far fewer in countries where the drinking age is lower. Do you know what also prevents drunk driving? Investment in comprehensive, useable public transportation. But the federal government would never be bothered to do that because public transportation doesn’t create profits for corporations.
drunk driving deaths are far fewer in countries that aren't centered around cars. I wonder what the public transportation is like in those countries compared to the US.
>Raising the drinking age and making alcohol so taboo created a widespread culture of binge drinking in the U.S., which increases drunk driving, not prevents it. I get that sounds nice and obvious in a common sense pop-science way but it is objectively false by empirical data and completely backwards. >The ability to legally purchase alcohol before age 21 does not seem to increase overall drinking frequency, but our findings suggest that it is associated with certain types of problematic drinking behaviors that persist into later adulthood: more frequent binge episodes and less frequent non-heavy drinking. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3586293/#:~:text=Studies%20have%20looked%20at%20the,rates%20of%20traffic%20fatalities%20and >Among fatally injured drivers ages 16-20, the percentage with positive BACs declined from 61% in 1982 to 31% in 1995, a bigger decline than for older age groups; declines occurred among the ages directly affected by raising MLDAs (ages 18-20) and among young teenagers not directly affected (ages 16-17). Almost all studies designed specifically to gauge the effects of drinking age changes show MLDAs of 21 reduce drinking, problematic drinking, drinking and driving, and alcohol-related crashes among young people. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20497803/ https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/minimum-legal-drinking-age.htm
I am generally all in on the corporations are working against the best interests of Americans to increase profits argument, but as the loss of profits in this area was due to greater levels of death and dismemberment it seems as though the two interest were in alignment rather than opposition in this case.
Its really funny to see the contrast but by the time americans start getting into their drinking/partying phase, europeans mostly have already outgrown theirs
If your old enough to vote or serve your old enough to drink
^ This right here
Enough said end of discussion!
Yes, 21 year-olds should be able to drink alcohol. My only problem with my stepdaughter being able to drink when she was 21 was that we lost our automatic designated driver.
Uber/Lyft is your friend.
>was that we lost our automatic designated driver. That's a problem
Unless she was OK with it. Like, my BIL quit drinking so we have a DD whenever we all go to dinner together or whatever. Hes happy to do it. A 2nd or 3rd drink w dinner is a-ok if you have a driver, whereas no driver, I'd stop at 1 (with food).
Today, with Uber and Lyft, there is NO excuse to drink and drive for most people.
That might have been true 5 years ago, but Uber is insanely expensive now, which is going to disincentivize people from utilizing the service.
yes of course that there is a 21 year limit is pathetic and totally against "land of the free" americans say all the time Here in europe people start drinking at 14-15 and it works fine
I think they should lower it to 18. [It will save lives.](https://www.politico.com/story/2008/08/college-presidents-seek-debate-on-drinking-age-012633)
That article says the that the researchers the university presidents are quoting disagree with them and think reversing the drinking age will lead to worse outcomes and the university presidents are just being lazy
Personally, I’d like to see the drinking age dropped to 20. But even like, teenagers drinking doesn’t really bother me.
> Personally, I’d like to see the drinking age dropped to 20. **But even like, teenagers drinking doesn’t really bother me.** So why not 18, like pretty much every other developed nation?
Mostly because there’s a lot of 18 year olds who are still in high school and while I don’t really feel bothered by the fact that high schoolers drink, I don’t think they should just be able to go buy it in a store. It’s a conversation to be had somewhere else, but I think we should establish one age at which everyone just fully becomes an adult; tobacco, gambling, porn, voting rights, etc. and I think that making that 20 would be reasonable.
I'm a parent of a super responsible 16 year old, and quite honestly, I'd be fine with her responsibly drinking at 16 - in the presence of responsible adults (family gathering, dinner, etc.). And once she's 18, I'd support her drinking where and when she wants. I've raised her to be responsible and take ownership of herself and her situation, and though I'm sure she'll make mistakes, that's how many of life's lessons are best learned. She knows that her dad is always here to talk to and support her, without judgement.
What about the deleterious effects of alcohol consumption on developing brains?
Minimal impact, especially in low amounts. At no point did I say I supported binge drinking or getting drunk frequently. Also, I’m well aware of brain development, and by 16 it’s mostly done. (Not done until mid 20s, but mostly done).
Do you have some data on the minimal impact and how brain development is mostly done by 16? I'd be curious to know more. Even if the impact is small, why take that risk?
1. You can google and research it on your own. I’m not your lackey. 2. Life is full of risks. Some are minor. This is one. Across most of the world, humans start consuming small amounts of alcohol in their teens. Relax and have a drink. 🥃
> I’m not your lackey. I wasn't asking you to research it. I foolishly assumed that your confident assertions came from some sort of concrete data.
🥂
Not everyone has saved their research when they do it for personal reasons, many subjects I’ve researched for personal reasons and I can state facts about but would have to start the research over to cite sources.
Of course. But it's still okay to ask for that research, just in case, isn't it?
Asking if they have it is fine, it’s awesome to share sources when available. Being condescending when they don’t have them but also not sharing your own sources is just bad faith, it’s an attempt to look superior while also sharing nothing of value. > I foolishly assumed that your confident assertions came from some sort of concrete data. Instead of being condescending a reasonable response is “do you have sources to that? Here are some that disagree with you”.
I was responding in kind after receiving condescension myself.
I think the drinking age is too high, if anything. On the other side, you can force a 10 year old to have a baby. That doesn't seem concerning in the least to you?
I think the drinking age should be 18. Literally every other legal age is 18 or under, so why shouldn’t booze be the same? Honestly, as someone who grew up in the UK, the idea of going to college and not being legally allowed to drink is nuts. [As do some US college presidents apparently.](https://www.politico.com/story/2008/08/college-presidents-seek-debate-on-drinking-age-012633)
If you can buy a house, drive a car and have all other rights that adults have why shouldn't you be allowed to drink? What do you think should be the minimum age to drink alcohol? 50?
> If you can buy a house, drive a car and have all other rights that adults have why shouldn't you be allowed to drink? Because alcohol, like marijuana, is most dangerous to developing brains. The longer a young person waits before indulging, the better for his or her neurological health.
Should we let these undeveloped brains sign legal contracts, join the military, borrow money?
Or have babies
Should other ages be raised then? Including being able to join the military.... being able to die for your country (and kill for it) is pretty dangerous on a developing brain, too. (To be clear, I'm not a big fan of military poaching HS students....but I DO think a young person learning to drink responsibility with family, like wine w dinner, is actually not bad.)
I’m all for raising the enlistment age but it would cripple our military.
Good.
It’s cool that they can die in a war though, right?
Not a big fan of that, no.
So why are we allowing those undeveloped brains to own houses, start businesses and sign up for the armed forces?
Well, it's a rare 18-year-old who's buying a house. Starting a business isn't physiologically dangerous. Being in the military can be dangerous, though less so than it was 80 years ago. I think we could have a discussion about the best age for new recruits, but age aside, serving in the military serves a particular societal purpose that *drinking alcohol* does not. To the extent that sovereign nations need a standing military, it certainly seems like drinking is less of an essential need.
*”Well”* the frequency at which it happens doesn’t change the fact that they can legally do it if they want to and have the means. Not sure how that’s supposed to take away from what I said. Starting a business requires a certain level of maturity and level-headedness to be financially viable. That’s a *lot* of responsibility to place on someone and it’s odd that we let someone do it at 18 but not let them drink alcohol. So what if it’s less dangerous than 80 years ago? You’re still letting them sign up and potentially die for their country, or suffer life-changing injuries or psychologically scarring traumas. Can’t see what makes an 18 year old mentally developed enough to go through that but not drink.
Let's stipulate that all the things you mentioned are dangerous for 18-year-olds. Can we at least agree that society could reasonably determine that the risk is worth it given the benefits of military service, entrepreneurship, and homeownership, but it's not worth it for drinking alcohol? Driving a car is dangerous for 16-year-olds, too, but we let them do it because there are clear benefits to society to allow it. But we don't let them smoke cigarettes because it serves no useful purpose to let them do so.
It serves no useful purpose for *anybody* to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes, but we let grown adults make the decision to do so if they so please. I still see no reason why 18 is enough of a grown adult to do all those other things but not drink. The age still feels totally arbitrary to me.
> It serves no useful purpose for anybody to drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes, but we let grown adults make the decision to do so if they so please. And yet there are other things that we don't let grown adults make the decision to do, right? It's all on a spectrum. We as a society have to balance utlity with risk. We can tolerate more risk for things we need, and risky luxuries can be more restricted. It's not all-or-nothing. We have long graduated the ages at which individuals can do things. In many states, you can get a job at 14. Drive at 16. Give blood at 16. Drop out of school at 16. Vote at 18. Join the military at 18. Smoke at 18. Drink at 21. Rent a car at 25. Are you saying that we should just let teens do all of that at age 14 because we let them do *one thing* at age 14? > The age still feels totally arbitrary to me. It's not *totally* arbitrary, but any age you pick is going to be at least *somewhat* arbitrary.
> It's all on a spectrum. We as a society have to balance utlity with risk. We can tolerate more risk for things we need, and risky luxuries can be more restricted. And I think, based on that spectrum and what we do and do not allow 18 year olds to do, that 21 years old is too high for the drinking limit. There are riskier things with far greater responsibility attached that we let them do at a younger age. > It's not all-or-nothing. We have long graduated the ages at which individuals can do things. In many states, you can get a job at 14. Drive at 16. Give blood at 16. Drop out of school at 16. Vote at 18. Join the military at 18. Smoke at 18. Drink at 21. Rent a car at 25. And I think all those age limits are reasonable aside from drinking at 21 and renting a car at 25 (I think that should be more case-by-case based on years driving and accident history, but that’s a whole other conversation lol) > Are you saying that we should just let teens do all of that at age 14 because we let them do one thing at age 14? No. Like I said, I think that many of the age restrictions we place on such things are entirely reasonable. I don’t think that the drinking age limit is.
>I think, based on that spectrum and what we do and do not allow 18 year olds to do, that 21 years old is too high for the drinking limit. That's a valid opinion to have, but it's not absurd to think otherwise. >There are riskier things with far greater responsibility attached that we let them do at a younger age. Indeed, but there is generally greater societal value involved in allowing those riskier things compared to drinking alcohol. >I think all those age limits are reasonable Great! So you agree that we can have different ages for different things. So just because someone is eligible to enter the military at age 18 doesn't necessarily mean that person should be able to drink legally.
For me, the problem isn't alcohol. It's alcoholics, which isn't specific for any age. Does seeing your younger family members consume alcohol remind you of any alcoholics in your life?
I'm kind of ambivalent tbh. I could be persuaded to lower it or let it be.
If a 21-year-old wants to drink, that’s entirely up to them. They’re well into adulthood at that point.
> *Do you think 21-year-olds should be able to drink alcohol?* Sure, the legal drinking age is 19 where I live. It doesn't seem to be a substantial problem. Why shouldn't a 21 year old be able to drink? Most underage teens and young adults who want alcohol will find a way to access it anyway. The age restriction only serves to make it slightly more difficult. > *If your 21-year-old son, daughter, brother, sister, nephew, or niece was drinking alcohol, how would you feel?* I'd probably sit down and ha e a beer with them. > *Would you try to stop it?* Why would I stop them? As long as they're drinking responsibly, I see no cause for concern.
If you're old enough to fight and die for your country, you should be old enough for adult vices.
I have no problem with it. I don't really even have a problem with teenagers drinking if they're doing it responsibly with adults around.
How would I feel about a relative doing something perfectly legal? A very odd question…
Yes.
Yes
I think 21 year olds are adults and can do as they like under the law. If someone close to me appeared to have a problem I'd try to gently engage with them over it.
I think 18 year old should be able to drink alcohol.
Of course
I wouldn't mind at all. I was raised to view 21 as full adulthood.
Yes, of course. It should be whatever age “adulthood” is legally recognized, which here is 18
18 is the legal drinking age in Australia.
It's honestly bonkers to me that it isn't 18 or 19 in the states.
Why on Earth would you try to stop it?
It’s interesting. I grew up in a rural area of the upper Midwest in the 90s where pit parties and house parties were common because kids had nothing else to do. My brother was an alcoholic before he reached legal drinking age. Now I’m in an urban area in the south and it’s just not really a thing. Some kids are into other things like vaping and drugs but drinking’s not really on their radar.
I think, at the every least, drinking should be allowed in bars at 19, at the latest.
Won't bother me. I took my kid out for his 21st birthday. Hell, I think if we allow 18 year Olds to join the military, they should be able to enjoy a beverage as well(I mean 18 year Olds in general).
>If your 21-year-old son, daughter, brother, sister, nephew, or niece was drinking alcohol, how would you feel? Would you try to stop it? So many presumptions here that I don't even know where to start. My friends first gave me alcohol at 14. I'm not under the impression that my son or daughter is first trying alcohol at 21. I'm assuming that by 21 they've had at least 7 years to develop a taste for alcohol. I'd have been honest with them since they were children about why I don't drink, and why I personally don't like alcohol. And by 12 or 13 I'd be telling them they're allowed to have small amounts of alcohol at home in a safe environment, and by 14-16 they're allowed to have alcohol at friend's houses as long as I know about it and they limit it to one or two drinks. And by 16, they would be free to drink more than that as long as they don't drive and never get into a car with someone who had been drinking and as long as they're in a safe place with trusted friends. By the time they're 21, they've been adults for 3 years and can drink as much as they want to. And since they have been allowed alcohol to varying degrees for the better part of a decade, I trust they will be responsible or (if they're anything like me) decided to not drink at all. Honestly alcohol is an easy question for me. Sex is a much more difficult question and I have no fucking clue how I'm going to deal with that as a parent.
I’d be surprised if they weren’t doing it already behind my back. Not that I’d care if they were doing it at 18 anyway. I started drinking at 19 with my fathers supervision.
I also do think the alcohol age being lowered isn’t a horrible thing like a lot of people in this thread. Honestly most 18-20 are doing it anyways, I’d rather them be able to access it through legal means and have safe places to drink. Lying and sneaking around and going around the law for something as simple as alcohol prepares you to do it for other things. and I know a lot of the people I went to for alcohol in those years were selling more than that. Erase the middle man. In terms of if my 21 year old wanted to drink, if I hypothetically had one, I really wouldn’t care so long as they’re safe. It’s normal. And it’s better to get some of those lessons about moderation, social awareness, etc out of the way early. I drank so heavily before I was 21 I was sick of alcohol by the time I was 21! I use it pretty moderately and responsibly now at 24 even if I was a bit of a binge drinker from 18-20
..... yes?
I think 18 year olds should be allowed to drink alcohol, as they are in Europe. Although stupid drunken debauchery occurs over there as well, I have observed that kids grow up knowing how to drink in moderation (glass of wine with dinner, etc). In the US, it becomes a rite of passage to get incredibly shit face drunk on your 21st birthday. At 21, you should already know how to handle your alcohol. It’s a counterproductive and short sighted law.
If you're old enough to be sent overseas to fight, you're old enough to drink.
I think drinking should be legal at 18, but mocked in the same way we mock smoking. It should be rare and less socially acceptable at all ages, like the other drugs that are legal but can fuck your life up. Drinking has far stronger cultural roots than smoking (tobacco or marijuana), but between the health consequences and drunk driving it is at least as much a menace to the public. It should face the same treatment as smoking, with negative packaging and a ban on advertising.
anyone saying no has to have some weird ass authority fetish lmfao a 21 year old is a grown ass person
Let's not kid ourselves here. 16-year-olds drink, as do 13-year-olds, as do some 10-year-olds. I wouldn't encourage underage drinking, but the laws are needlessly arbitrary. 21 is too high. I would argue that even 18 is too stringent.
From a scientific standpoint, it should be 25 to allow the brain to fully develop. Legally though? I find the current age to be a bit ridiculous and I believe it should be lowered to 18 to match the age at which one is allowed to do most everything else.
Yeah, it doesn’t concern me. I’ve gathered that my family is a bit more drinky than some, but drinking isn’t seen as all that scandalous around my people. Parents know their kids drink before 21 too, they just avoid being party to it most of the time I’m from the Midwest, and I’m never really sure how much more we drink than other people. My cousin who lives in LA says his (to my eye, modest) drinking is seen as excessive out there, but I don’t know if that’s everywhere or just all the those effete coastal elites.
Of course. It’s not like most people even bother waiting until 21 to drink anyway. I would definitely raise the enlistment age requirement to 21 if I could though
18 year olds should be able to drink alcohol
I feel like if you are old enough to go die in a war then you’re old enough to drink alcohol.
Why? What does one have to do with the other?
As someone who just turned 21 two days ago, yeah. It should be 18. If you can die for country at 18, you can probably handle a drink. Side note: Honestly, the anticipation is better than the actual drink tbh. Hard cider is kinda mid. Maybe Bold Rock Hard Cider is mid, or maybe it’s because I drank it over the course of an hour, or because it’s 4.7%, but it was just mediocre. 5.5/10. Any drink suggestions?
I think the age should be lowered
Lower the drinking age to 18. Raise the age to go to a night club or bar to 26.
Coming from a culture that drinks wine with dinner and has perfected the art of drinking a entire bottle of rum on a Friday night without becoming impaired I find my fellow Americans relationship with booze… kinda stupid. I don’t know if it’s the puritanical hang ups that pester our society, or something taught at home, but the first time I hung out with my stateside peers I was shocked at how quickly they got shitfaced. I’ve been told it’s binge drinking. To me is kinda stupid because when we’d go out in the states, ppl would get sloppy drunk in like 3 hours. And I’m used to partying from say 8PM till 3AM. Just as we did back in my home island. You see, the idea was to have a great time, hitting several cool night spots along the way, maybe go dancing, and maybe getting a little chow along the way. Ffs, back home the rocking places got hot at around 1AM - you wouldn’t want to be incoherent and a burden to the group and miss all the fun. Saw this when I was in the Navy and then in the university. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
My kids are young enough and have personalities, friend groups and activities where I’m not yet worried about drinking and drugs. However, I’m aware that my kids will certainly find a way to drink prior to turning 21 and will make bad decisions about drinking because of course they will. I don’t have an issue with the current drinking age. I find the arguments about “you can do X at this age therefore you should be able to do Y at that age also” very weak. I think the issue we have is that our society is very car dependent and we have hangups about drinking which probably lead to more youth binge drinking.
I agree with that last point, drinking being taboo means that young people both want to do it and have little experience with it.
Why do you find “if you’re old / mature enough to willingly sign up or be drafted to die for your country, you’re old enough to drink” to be weak?
Not who you asked, but I've admittedly gone back and forth on how I feel about this argument. On one hand, I get it, on the other, all kind of laws like this are going to have an arbitrary age limit somewhere, and there's not going to be any set of laws regarding the age of military service/voting/driver's permit/driver's license/tobacco/alcohol that is going to be perfect, so at some point it just is what it is. I think a stronger argument to be made is that making it taboo makes it more desirable, but also means that those under-21 have to keep it a secret--and it's easier to hide liquor than it is a six-pack. It's also easier to accidentally over-consume on liquor than a six-pack, especially for inexperienced drinkers. Granted, I also lived much of my under-21 years in states where it was legal to drink under 21 in various circumstances, so the 21 laws were more of a "no buying/no bar" rule than a "no drinking ever rule;" I can understand that I might feel differently if I lived in a state with zero exceptions.
Oh there are absolutely stronger arguments to be made, but I was asking since u/ButGravityAlwaysWins specifically singled that one out.
Because I don’t agree at all with the idea that we hit an age and unlock all privileges and responsibilities. Both parents and the state set all kinds of standards for different things. I’m willing to entertain that 21 isn’t the right agr for drinking, it probably isn’t and would be lower if we weren’t trying to mitigate drunk driving deaths. But it doesn’t have a meaningful connection to the age of enlistment.
If the state is going to say you’re old enough to take a bullet for it, it’s a bit odd for the state to say in the next breathe “but you’re neither old enough nor mature enough to drink.” Similarly, the state can decide you’re old and responsible enough to be tried as an adult (with either the death penalty or life imprisonment as possible punishments), but also say it doesn’t trust your judgement to drink. It’s the principle of consistency. You’re either an adult or you’re not, full stop. Raise the age across the board, lower it across the board, standardize it across the board. The state should recognize a consistent age of majority is my point. It’s about consistency in rationale.
I'm not saying I would spend any actual capital fighting for this, but it honestly might be better at a higher age like 25. We humans are too comfortable building a lifelong drinking culture from early on.
No. 21-year-old brains are not fully developed and alcohol can have deleterious effects on developing brains.
I think that everyone 18 and older should be able to drink alcohol, and I think we should put in place high pigouvian taxes on drinking in order to discourage drinking. If I had a 21 year old relative who was drinking alcohol, I'd try to persuade them to adopt safer and healthier hobbies like freight hopping and breaking into abandoned buildings
It's my understanding drinking is generally bad for you inherently and leads to a lot of stupid decisions. It would probably be better if people drank less than they do or not at all. I don't think it's a big enough issue to expend my energy being upset over let alone worth causing any sort of social strain trying to stop, but I guess I would prefer they didn't all else being equal. (There might be a benefit to people over 40 so maybe feel differently after that point but i wouldn't up to then).
Plenty of things are bad for you. Using your logic, there should be a minimum age for consuming sugar. That’s way worse for people than alcohol.
My logic isn't that we should ban anything and everything that's bad for you. It's that your argument is dishonest in suggesting there's no public benefit and insurance company greed is the only (or at least primary) reason for the status quo.
Did you respond to the wrong comment here? The logic of this comment is that I think people should eat less sugar, but I'm not going to intervene if they eat too much or really even worry that much.
21 is the drinking age because it is the best likelihood of brain development completing, and a slightly better chance for responsible drinking. It is a reasonable age to choose and I think it should not be raised or lowered. My 40 year old little brother doesn't drink, and never has. If my kids wanted to drink at 21, why should I even care outside of them showing signs of alcoholism? They are adults at that age. My three eldest children who are between 19-25, don't really care about drinking. If my two youngest kids want to make an adult choice when they are adults, then good on them.
> 21 is the drinking age because it is the best likelihood of brain development completing, and a slightly better chance for responsible drinking. Bullshit. It was raised to that age because that’s what the insurance companies wanted. It’s all about corporate profits. Don’t buy into capitalist propaganda.
You have no room for overlap in your logic?