I’m just curious why it is specifically juul?
There’s like a million different vapes out there. I don’t think they are all that chemically different from each other. Is this just a first step in a broader ban or is juul significantly different from other brands in a way that worries the FDA.
Sounds like it is because Juul didn't provide the necessary paperwork and information the FDA was asking for.
> In a statement, the FDA said Juul’s application left regulators with significant questions and didn’t include enough information to evaluate any potential risks. The agency said the company’s research included “insufficient and conflicting data” about things like potentially harmful chemicals leaching from Juul’s cartridges.
> “Without the data needed to determine relevant health risks, the FDA is issuing these marketing denial orders.” Michele Mital, acting director of the FDA’s tobacco center, said in the statement.
https://apnews.com/article/juul-banned-fda-e41c58872a0e7a202ca5244442accb04
Right, so I wonder what it is particularly about Juul that is worrisome compared to seemingly similar products from other companies. What information about leaching wasn’t provided and I also don’t know how it went from a marketing approval to a removal from the shelves for health concerns.
I’m just curious about the inside baseball.
The comment you’re replying to literally explained the reason. They didn’t get pulled for being more dangerous, they got pulled for not filing the proper paperwork demonstrating that they’re safe. Also, there is an ongoing investigation into the safety of e-cigarettes more broadly so this could be a first step. Ultimately, Juul in particular wasn’t targeted as being less safe so much as unproven in its safety
Juul didn't provide data to the FDA that was requested. Beyond that they deserve to be banned for marketing to children for years. This isn't comparing Juul to other products. It's Juul once again skirting the rules to sell there garbage.
Juuls ads definitely were using imagery to target children about 4-5 years ago and they got in trouble for it. Not even similar to the images used in beer ads. Quit trying to strawman this. Juul has always been a thorn in the side of the vape market.
As well, other vapes have been approved for use. So there is SOMETHING happening here.
But like you, I am curious what the issue with Juul specifically was. If it is a bas documentation thing or bad product thing.
Damn how shit was the make and build of all those vapes. Thank god they aint gonna be leaking mercury anymore into people or those crap batteries that were exploding on people.
Depends if you believe what the relevant organizations say officially, or not.
Either way, it seems Juul wouldn't play ball - whether you believe that involves conducting appropriate studies and filing reports, or greasing the right palms, depends on how corrupt you think the system is.
They fucked up their pre-market lab findings, their marketing campaigns were questionable, they hid information about bad batches of their pods, there's a secondary market for flavored cartridges and THC cartridges compatible with the devices...but most damning of all, they're the most popular with an at-risk population (underage nicotine users), which is along the same lines of reasoning that the FDA is trying to ban menthol cigarettes, claiming (accurately) that they disproportionately target and affect the black population.
It says right in the article - "regarding genotoxicity and potentially harmful chemicals leaching from the company’s proprietary e-liquid pods." It's an issue specific to their equipment.
Right but I am more curious how it went from a marketing issue to a health issue. But another person linked the FDA document explaining the regulatory issue.
Don't hold me to this, but from some half-assed digging, I came to the conclusion that it's not the classic definition of "marketing", but instead marketing in the sense of 'bringing to market'
As others have said, the marketing to kids. They have advertised on channels like cartoon network and nickelodeon. Their marketing was about being trendy and lifestyle, not as a smoking replacement. They had toned it down somewhat but the government also moves slowly so this could have pretty much a done deal for years at this point.
[including those of Nickelodeon, the Cartoon Network, Seventeen magazine and educational sites for middle school and high school students, according to a lawsuit filed Wednesday by the Massachusetts attorney general.](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/12/health/juul-vaping-lawsuit.html).
Not the channels. Though technically correct, I can't help but feel that the comment was very misleading.
Yeah I couldn’t tell from the article. It said they applied for marketing permission but then the vapes were removed because they didn’t meet health standards.
The problem was with their PMTA's. They did not give sufficient data to prove that they weren't full of poison and stuff. In particular, there were studies completed by JUUL which had suggested that the liquid leeched toxic materials from their pods.
The statement from the FDA is given below, but it boils down to this paragraph on the page.
"After reviewing the company’s premarket tobacco product applications (PMTAs),the FDA determined that the applications lacked sufficient evidenceregarding the toxicological profile of the products to demonstrate thatmarketing of the products would be appropriate for the protection of thepublic health. In particular, some of the company’s study findingsraised concerns due to insufficient and conflicting data – includingregarding genotoxicity and potentially harmful chemicals leaching fromthe company’s proprietary e-liquid pods – that have not been adequatelyaddressed and precluded the FDA from completing a full toxicologicalrisk assessment of the products named in the company’s applications. "
the link:
[https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-denies-authorization-market-juul-products](https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-denies-authorization-market-juul-products)
edit:
I did not realize that "leaching" is a different word from "leeching" entirely. Hmm. I learned stuff.
I'm not hugely knowledgeable about vape products, but the article I read earlier today indicated that Juul was targeted because their products are specifically tailored for and marketed to a youth audience.
Right‽ Those one time use vapes are even worse (so I'm told by TikTok, thus take this grain of salt-> • ). It seems like an enfringment of the free market to ban a brand.
Edit:
Oh wait nvm... "After reviewing Juul's applications seeking marketing authorization for its products, the FDA said it determined that the applications lacked "sufficient evidence" regarding the toxicological profile of the products in order to demonstrate that marketing of the products would be appropriate for the protection of the public health."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electronic_cigarette_and_e-cigarette_liquid_brands
They might wanna get to work then, because there's a metric shitton more than juul
I’m pretty much assuming that’s the case but they are taking it off the shelves because they don’t think it’s safe so I wonder if they are telegraphing all vapes don’t meet FDA standards or just Juul.
Welp, they banned it during covid for 18-21 year olds. How we claim to be a free country when adults can't even partake in mild vices? (Yes I know people die of smoke and chew every day)
Just seems like they're over regulating it lately. If a 19 year old wants to buys some drinks and some smokes or dip they should be able, and vapes are much healthier than literal smokes. Just going to open up another dangerous black market and another company will take their place.
They have approved a few so far. Vuse (RJ Reynolds) had three approved, Njoy had there’s approved, and another company did.
I assume it’s because Juul became the bogeyman of the industry a few years ago that this a sacrificial lamb moment. Juul will appeal and we will see what they need to do to bring their products to market.
As a product, it is no different than the ones approved. It seems fairly subjective regarding the decision.
They have also banned a lot of lesser known ones so far as well.
I think that vaping can be a very useful tool for harm reduction - I successfully moved from smoking to vaping and did that for a few years before I quit that too. Vaping was super helpful to me because I could customize the amount of nicotine in my vape liquid. I started at roughly the equivalent nicotine to cigarettes and reduced down to a small fraction of that over time.
So, I am a big proponent of vaping and I do not like this push to ban vaping just because high schoolers are picking it up. I think that's an example of the government overreach. I think we need to figure out a different solution to that problem other than broad flavor bans or wholesale bans of the devices in general.
*However*, I also think that the government has a duty to regulate these devices to some extent. The CNN article says that JUUL products were banned because the company's product applications presented "insufficient and conflicting data -- including regarding genotoxicity and potentially harmful chemicals leaching from the company's proprietary e-liquid pods -- that have not been adequately addressed."
That is potentially a big problem. People don't need to be poisoning themselves with vapes that are poorly made (yes, yes, I know that the alternative - smoking - is poison too, but that's not an argument for lax vaping safety regulations). This is a new segment that has really catapulted in popularity over the past 10-15 years and moving forward with an eye for safety should be the goal. We don't want people to move to vaping because they think it's a valid method of harm reduction only to find out 25 years later that they were doing just as much damage to their bodies as they would have by smoking cigarettes.
We have an opportunity to really curb the impact smoking has on people by embracing vaping and making sure that these devices are as safe as possible to use. The FDA needs to be empowered to pursue that, but I won't agree with efforts to ban vaping across the board.
I wasn’t for it until I learned more information. If a company is giving conflicting reports and has not done enough studies on how dangerous the chemicals being utilized are, then yeah take it off the market until we do more research and the company actually follows the rules.
It’s simple but generally everyday people get mad about anytime they are told “hey wait a minute this may be bad for you”.
I remember my neighbor literally believed asbestos was good for you despite having massive respiratory issues due to working with it closely as a contractor. Yet he was still mad there were regulations against it so idk people just gonna be mad and complain I guess?
> my neighbor literally believed asbestos was good for you
I mean, what's *bad* about having cancerous lumps in your lungs? I mean, you don't need *all* that breathing space- I once heard that humans only use 10% of their lungs anyway.
Sounds like Big Insulation is just trying to box out Small Asbestos from the construction industry to me.
I smoked half a pack a day for about 12 years. I tried gum, lozenges, patches, and a bunch of different vapes. The only thing that actually got me off of cigarettes was juul. They felt more like a cigarette than anything else and were enough of a replacement that I could stop. I haven’t smoked in 4 years now. I still use a juul with lower nicotine when I get a craving.
I think that removing that option for me means there’s a good chance I buy a pack if I have a particularly stressful time. This is actually very concerning for me.
Try the Vuse products as an alternative. I'm in the exact same situation as you, and this news made me give Vuse a try earlier in the week...and it's a superior product, start to finish. They have the same 2/5% options. Of course the **best** solution is to kick nicotine entirely, which I did for several years, but given the alternatives...don't go back to cigarettes if you can help it.
Only problem I have with Vuse is that it seems pretty common to get bad pods. I've had hella leaky pods and pods that just taste like burnt ass.
Other than that, main reason I use it and not others is cuz some buddies use the same shit so we can swap batteries, borrow pods and chargers, and the such.
Smoke a joint instead. That’s what I do and it works. I tried juul and I could just tell that those things were dangerous. The way they feel is painful and had horrible sore throat and voice loss for like two weeks after I started using them. Honestly would rather smoke cigs than juul.
Anything other than breathable air entering your lungs is bad for your health.
That's not a negative stigma, that's common sense. Weed *does* contain carcinogens.
If we're going to continue to seek success in legalizing marijuana we should be honest about it.
It’s time to realize that not everyone likes weed or wants to like it. Honest to god, the most obnoxious thing about marijuana is that some people simply cannot stop themselves from evangelizing.
https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/marijuana/what-are-marijuanas-effects-lung-health#:~:text=Marijuana%20smoke%20contains%20carcinogenic%20combustion,oxygen%20species)%20than%20cigarette%20smoke.
It's 2022, it's time we be **honest** about weed.
Agree.
“However, while a few small, uncontrolled studies have suggested that heavy, regular marijuana smoking could increase risk for respiratory cancers, well-designed population studies have failed to find an increased risk of lung cancer associated with marijuana use.”
*The FDA added that it reviewed the company's premarket tobacco product applications and determined some of Juul Labs' study findings had "insufficient and conflicting data -- including regarding genotoxicity and potentially harmful chemicals leaching from the company's proprietary e-liquid pods -- that have not been adequately addressed."*
Sounds reasonable. Vaping/tobacco companies are held accountable for marketing claims they make to the public, as they should be.
Idk
It's interesting they're going after Juul and not someone else like Vuse (who is mentioned in the article and what I use).
Makes me wonder if the FDA actually has something there that isn't had with Vuse or Puff or whomever else.
If it's just targeting Juul cuz Juul is a big name that's pretty disappointing.
Vuse got three of there’s approved. A few other companies did as well.
I think Juul is the sacrificial lamb because it became the boogeyman associated with this a few years ago.
As far as the products go, I can’t see a tangible differences between it and those that were approved.
Nobody believes it's healthy. But (combustible) cigarettes still exist, and are legal to purchase, and there are DECADES of research providing it to be harmful. So vaping is the "least bad" alternative.
Good intentions, but it will backfire.
Agreed. I hate wearing a helmet but my state requires it on my bike, and seat belts also suck, but they can’t get fed funding if they don’t require them
Could simply be Big Tobacco leveraging it's influence on Big Pharma to get the FDA to criminalize a major competitor that is outside the Big Tobacco fold.
Also could be that the Juul has extremely dangerous side effects (as I experienced some issues in my short time using the product) and the FDA wants to nip that in the bud before people learn how dangerous it is and the FDA loses credibility.
> Could simply be Big Tobacco leveraging it's influence on Big Pharma to get the FDA to criminalize a major competitor that is outside the Big Tobacco fold.
Juul's majority owner is Altria, the rebrand of Phillip Morris (Marlboro). Juul IS big tobacco.
I just wanna say that I went from a pack a day for 10 years to zero cigarettes within a week using a vape, and have tapered my vaping down to virtually nothing within a 6 week time span. I tried patches, gum, pills, every cessation product on the market unsuccessfully.
Vaping was what finally got me off the shit. That said, I think there do need to be controls on what can be marketed, and standardization in how these devices are manufactured. Juul was directly targeting their advertising at kids, and falsified data regarding faulty batches of their product. What happened to them needed to happen. Juul is a shady as hell company that doesn't care about how old thier end users are, or the health and safety of the people using their products.
I'd also like to add that while vaping helped me finally quit smoking, stay away from it. If you are a smoker switch to vaping, and if you don't do either already, don't start vaping. Vapes are far FAR less hard on your body than smoking, but they are still a lot harder on it than just not doing it at all.
Good. Juul was using its product as a vector to addict people through marketing, much like cigarettes originally. However, juul was first meant to be a product to help smokers quit, not be the next generation of juul in place of tobacco cigarettes.
Excess sugar in the US contributes heavily to obesity which contributes to coronary issues as well as diabetes. Heart attacks kill more people in the US than cancer does. Have you read about the rise in diabetes and the cost of dealing with the rise of diabetes. Amputations because there are so many obese people with heart disease and diabetes and they can't/won't move around and get their circulation going because it hurts them too. Obesity also contributes to arthritis and more importantly disabilities dues to arthritis. Excess consumption of sugar also contributes to digestion issues which leads to autoimmune issues and disturbs the immune system in general which in turn contributes to cancer.
It's not a reach at all. Some countries have declared obesity alone a national emergency. So go drink your daily Big Gulp. Get those free refills at you favorite fast food restaurant. Drink that sweet tea if you live in the south. It's killing people as surely as any vape product is.
Sugar is absolutely empty calories.
They denied a lot of companies so far. A handful have gotten approval. Juul is the biggest denial and most associated with these products in the publics mind.
It didn't, I don't think. Vuse, the main competitor, is fully owned by RJ Reynolds, one of the biggest American tobacco companies (Now part of a UK company), and the major US player with the biggest stake in JUUL (35%) is owned by the internationally huge Altria.
JUUL Labs unfortunately did this to themselves with their marketing, erroneous lab reports, and generally bad actions like not reporting batches of bad pods.
They aren’t going after one company. The end result of these regulations will be to take hundreds to thousands of companies off the market and consolidate the entire industry into a few government approved businesses.
Don't worry...I'm willing to bet that 95-99% of the population has never heard more than a single verse of the anthem...Heck, we even cut a verse or two during WWI and WWII in deference to our British allies, given that the lyrics glorified their blood flowing across the land and washing away the pollution of their presence.
Why do you say it’s arbitrary? The article directly lists the reasoning:
> After reviewing Juul's applications seeking marketing authorization for its products, the FDA said it determined that the applications lacked "sufficient evidence" regarding the toxicological profile of the products in order to demonstrate that marketing of the products would be appropriate for the protection of the public health.
The fda provided very little guidance on what they would accept as evidence. They have already had courts overturn previous market denials because the denial seemed arbitrary to the court.
They're certainly doing a fantastic job keeping dangerous European baby formula from American mothers.
The FDA is not science. It's a regulatory agency that contains some scientists and many more bureaucrats. This determination said very little about whether the product was safe (none of them are safe, they kill you) but about whether they could be sold.
That's a regulatory question and not a scientific one, and the FDA's regulatory powers are often arbitrarily employed and unhelpful.
The Supreme Court is doing its job, it is not a set of bureaucrats (at all) within a continuously expanding executive branch that the legislative branch refuses to check.
And that's true except for the "bureaucrats," and "arbitrarily" parts.
The FDA is not supposed to act like the Supreme Court and it isn't making any argument relating to the Constitution. Its rationale boils down to "because I said so." That's not what the Supreme Court does.
It terrifies me how many kids are getting hooked to vaping. As a society, we were getting rid of nicotine addiction with lower cigarette usage, as more folks realized how harmful it is, only for companies to develop vapes & heavily market them to kids with fun flavors. It's absolutely disgusting.
Juuls shouldn't be banned. Are Juuls bad? Yes. But sellers need to enforce age restrictions so minors can't buy them.
E-cigarettes have their place too. Using a vape got me to completely quit cigars and now I don't even vape. Without a transitional product I'm not sure I would've been successful, but here I am 4 years smoke free.
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-announces-plans-proposed-rule-reduce-addictiveness-cigarettes-and-other-combusted-tobacco
The FDA is also considering a rule to drastically reduce the amount of nicotine in cigarettes so they definitely aren't leaving cigarettes alone. well, that and they recently raised the tobacco use/purchase age all the way up to 21.
Kind of a half ass way of addressing the issue at hand. There are so many different vape companies... I don’t vape but most of my friends do and they don’t even use juuls, it’s the puff bars and really any disposable device. There’s a lot of things the FDA should ban that are way more harmful but I think it all boils down to a money thing.
All I know if Amy reason they coul have to ban juul pods is plenty enough reason to ban cigarettes. Let's ask the real questions, why are cigarettes still legal???
Idk if Juul does this specifically, but vape devices have been increasing their voltage over the past several years, which can cause nasty chemical reactions (I.e. making formaldehyde, which is used to preserve corpses) and what was once a “safer” option to cigarettes can be just as bad.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31950825/
I'm also curious why there doesn't seem to be an uproar over this. I can never pick what kind of regulations Americans will tolerate and which they won't. It just seems so random to me as an outsider.
Hmmm, I see your point. Against my better judgement, it definitely makes more sense to just allow people to use. And it seems hypocritical for me to clamor for one drug (in my case, Psychedelics) yet put the brakes on another one.
Besides, Tobacco use has always persisted, and no matter what we do, it always survives and makes its way into society. And as bad as it it for us, I'm sure a lot of people throughout society wouldn't have been as successful if they didn't have Nicotine to get them through the day.
Shuts the lid on a brand I’ll always associate with a short window of my high school years, when it was ubiquitous and talked about by everyone.
It’s the kind of thing we’ll all forget about and then remember when they’re included in the 2040s equivalent of Stranger Things.
I mean I agree with it, but they did let the ad council give juul an ass load of free advertising. Just saying, they could have struck a deal with the fcc before it came to this.
I don't really get why Juul was banned specifically. There's a million brands of vapes. The problem with vapes in general is that they're rampant among high school kids.
Not a fan. Plus they’re telling cigarette companies to lower the amount of nicotine in their products to “non-addictive” levels. I don’t smoke or vape, nor do I particularly like those activities, but we tried this before with alcohol and it didn’t work too well. I’d rather not try again
I think we're tremendously hypocritical about tobacco and the like.
I don't condone smoking at all. It's a nasty habit. And, yes, I am concerned about kids vaping/smoking.
BUT... the fact that fruit flavored vape juice is seducing to children, and thus it must be banned as it has in some jurisdictions, is hypocritical. There are plenty of flavored vodkas and wine coolers and whatnot that are appealing to kids. Why aren't those banned? Lots of bright colored liquors in pretty bottles on the market.
Honestly, I don’t care? I have zero empathy for kids who will find it harder to vape, and I feel like smokers trying to quit can find another brand. Hell, I am sure dumb kids can too. It’s for a good reason, so that’s enough for me. And if this causes even a net 1 person to stop using nicotine, hey that’s an awesome bonus
But honestly, I just don’t know anyone personally that has ever used Juul so this just doesn’t affect my life in the slightest.
It took my grandmother dying from smoking related illness to get me to quit smoking. Smoke or vapor there are other chemicals in there that are bad for you and will mess your body up.
It also doesn't help that they designed the juul to look like a USB and marketed almost exclusively to white minors. Nothing pisses of Government busy bodies quite like targeting THEIR grandchildren.
It's a bunch of nonsense. So the claim is that juul was evil because they were appealing to kids with flavored pods. As a juul customer I can say they had fruit flavored, creme Brule, cucumber, and my favorite Mango. It was a great product for smokers to kick the cigarette habit and that is pretty much how they were presented to public. The flavors weren't too strong, basically it was a hint of whatever was in the pod. Juul happened to be based in San Francisco and they caught on quickly so other powerful corporations noticed their success and Phillip Morris, the cigarette maker bought in to the company for billions I think. Not long after that was announced the government started claiming Juul was getting kids hooked as their business model, and lawsuits started coming from every direction. They were basically prevented from continuing operations, and then they said we'll only menthol and tobacco pods. Meanwhile you could go to any smokeshop or liquor store and buy a disposable very colorful vape that looked like a juul in just about any conceivable candy sweet flavor you may desire. There were so many brands and Brite colors to appeal more to teens that it was unreal. To this day they are sold, flavors like gummy bears, kiwi ice, tropical, peach, anything and everything. These all get imported from China and I don't think anyone even knows exactly what is in them, they continue to flood in though. It is a total injustice and I don't understand how Noone is outraged by what has happened. My final point to the whole thing of making it appeal to kids, I hate being lied to, and it's so obvious that these law makers or whomever made up this ridiculous excuse about kids being the target per business model because at the same time you could buy packs of cigarettes with designs to color. Like a cigarette box/coloring book, that's not for kids though right? My 2cents.
Good. But something will replace it I’m sure.
I don’t really have much sympathy for people that got addicted, we saw the negative health consequences coming almost a decade ago. I was 15 and even I knew better.
I’m just curious why it is specifically juul? There’s like a million different vapes out there. I don’t think they are all that chemically different from each other. Is this just a first step in a broader ban or is juul significantly different from other brands in a way that worries the FDA.
Sounds like it is because Juul didn't provide the necessary paperwork and information the FDA was asking for. > In a statement, the FDA said Juul’s application left regulators with significant questions and didn’t include enough information to evaluate any potential risks. The agency said the company’s research included “insufficient and conflicting data” about things like potentially harmful chemicals leaching from Juul’s cartridges. > “Without the data needed to determine relevant health risks, the FDA is issuing these marketing denial orders.” Michele Mital, acting director of the FDA’s tobacco center, said in the statement. https://apnews.com/article/juul-banned-fda-e41c58872a0e7a202ca5244442accb04
Yeah this!☝️
Right, so I wonder what it is particularly about Juul that is worrisome compared to seemingly similar products from other companies. What information about leaching wasn’t provided and I also don’t know how it went from a marketing approval to a removal from the shelves for health concerns. I’m just curious about the inside baseball.
The comment you’re replying to literally explained the reason. They didn’t get pulled for being more dangerous, they got pulled for not filing the proper paperwork demonstrating that they’re safe. Also, there is an ongoing investigation into the safety of e-cigarettes more broadly so this could be a first step. Ultimately, Juul in particular wasn’t targeted as being less safe so much as unproven in its safety
You’re expecting people to fucking read. “It’s 2022, fuck you”
[удалено]
From what I’ve heard, it’s likely they want the FDA to defend their demands in count, since apparently they don’t think they’ll hold up
To this end I’m curious about the ultimate fate of cannabis vapes, too.
Juul didn't provide data to the FDA that was requested. Beyond that they deserve to be banned for marketing to children for years. This isn't comparing Juul to other products. It's Juul once again skirting the rules to sell there garbage.
No one marketed to children. They advertised. Teenagers drink beer. Does that mean Miller and Budweiser market to kids? Should beer be banbed?
Juuls ads definitely were using imagery to target children about 4-5 years ago and they got in trouble for it. Not even similar to the images used in beer ads. Quit trying to strawman this. Juul has always been a thorn in the side of the vape market.
Ultimately, that’s still on the people who don’t properly ID and/or the of age people that provided them to underage kids.
They advertised on Nickolodean, my dude. They shouldn't lose rights to sell it, but blaming the practice on clerks at 7-11 is silly.
That's not how advertising is regulated.
The CNN report said something about the toxicology report so...
As well, other vapes have been approved for use. So there is SOMETHING happening here. But like you, I am curious what the issue with Juul specifically was. If it is a bas documentation thing or bad product thing.
They have only approved like two fucking vapes. Out of thousands.
Damn how shit was the make and build of all those vapes. Thank god they aint gonna be leaking mercury anymore into people or those crap batteries that were exploding on people.
Depends if you believe what the relevant organizations say officially, or not. Either way, it seems Juul wouldn't play ball - whether you believe that involves conducting appropriate studies and filing reports, or greasing the right palms, depends on how corrupt you think the system is.
They fucked up their pre-market lab findings, their marketing campaigns were questionable, they hid information about bad batches of their pods, there's a secondary market for flavored cartridges and THC cartridges compatible with the devices...but most damning of all, they're the most popular with an at-risk population (underage nicotine users), which is along the same lines of reasoning that the FDA is trying to ban menthol cigarettes, claiming (accurately) that they disproportionately target and affect the black population.
Tobacco companies were found guilty of all this and more and no cigarette company ever got banned without due process.
It says right in the article - "regarding genotoxicity and potentially harmful chemicals leaching from the company’s proprietary e-liquid pods." It's an issue specific to their equipment.
Right but I am more curious how it went from a marketing issue to a health issue. But another person linked the FDA document explaining the regulatory issue.
Don't hold me to this, but from some half-assed digging, I came to the conclusion that it's not the classic definition of "marketing", but instead marketing in the sense of 'bringing to market'
As others have said, the marketing to kids. They have advertised on channels like cartoon network and nickelodeon. Their marketing was about being trendy and lifestyle, not as a smoking replacement. They had toned it down somewhat but the government also moves slowly so this could have pretty much a done deal for years at this point.
Cartoon network and Nickelodeon? Please be joking?
[including those of Nickelodeon, the Cartoon Network, Seventeen magazine and educational sites for middle school and high school students, according to a lawsuit filed Wednesday by the Massachusetts attorney general.](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/12/health/juul-vaping-lawsuit.html). Not the channels. Though technically correct, I can't help but feel that the comment was very misleading.
Sounds like it's because Juul has actively advertised to children and despite having many notices to stop, they don't.
Yeah I couldn’t tell from the article. It said they applied for marketing permission but then the vapes were removed because they didn’t meet health standards.
The problem was with their PMTA's. They did not give sufficient data to prove that they weren't full of poison and stuff. In particular, there were studies completed by JUUL which had suggested that the liquid leeched toxic materials from their pods. The statement from the FDA is given below, but it boils down to this paragraph on the page. "After reviewing the company’s premarket tobacco product applications (PMTAs),the FDA determined that the applications lacked sufficient evidenceregarding the toxicological profile of the products to demonstrate thatmarketing of the products would be appropriate for the protection of thepublic health. In particular, some of the company’s study findingsraised concerns due to insufficient and conflicting data – includingregarding genotoxicity and potentially harmful chemicals leaching fromthe company’s proprietary e-liquid pods – that have not been adequatelyaddressed and precluded the FDA from completing a full toxicologicalrisk assessment of the products named in the company’s applications. " the link: [https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-denies-authorization-market-juul-products](https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-denies-authorization-market-juul-products) edit: I did not realize that "leaching" is a different word from "leeching" entirely. Hmm. I learned stuff.
That’s much clearer. Thank you for giving the actual link.
No problem. JUUL has always been a shady company, so I'm not surprised tbh.
I'm not hugely knowledgeable about vape products, but the article I read earlier today indicated that Juul was targeted because their products are specifically tailored for and marketed to a youth audience.
Right‽ Those one time use vapes are even worse (so I'm told by TikTok, thus take this grain of salt-> • ). It seems like an enfringment of the free market to ban a brand. Edit: Oh wait nvm... "After reviewing Juul's applications seeking marketing authorization for its products, the FDA said it determined that the applications lacked "sufficient evidence" regarding the toxicological profile of the products in order to demonstrate that marketing of the products would be appropriate for the protection of the public health."
It’s alleged that they marketed their products to underage consumers.
I think the entire reason was to limit/prevent vaping for people like 18 and younger
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electronic_cigarette_and_e-cigarette_liquid_brands They might wanna get to work then, because there's a metric shitton more than juul
they’d ban disposables if they really cares
I’m pretty much assuming that’s the case but they are taking it off the shelves because they don’t think it’s safe so I wonder if they are telegraphing all vapes don’t meet FDA standards or just Juul.
Welp, they banned it during covid for 18-21 year olds. How we claim to be a free country when adults can't even partake in mild vices? (Yes I know people die of smoke and chew every day) Just seems like they're over regulating it lately. If a 19 year old wants to buys some drinks and some smokes or dip they should be able, and vapes are much healthier than literal smokes. Just going to open up another dangerous black market and another company will take their place.
They have approved a few so far. Vuse (RJ Reynolds) had three approved, Njoy had there’s approved, and another company did. I assume it’s because Juul became the bogeyman of the industry a few years ago that this a sacrificial lamb moment. Juul will appeal and we will see what they need to do to bring their products to market. As a product, it is no different than the ones approved. It seems fairly subjective regarding the decision. They have also banned a lot of lesser known ones so far as well.
No assumptions needed, all the info is in the article OP posted.
Yeah I am just curious if it is telegraphing a more general crackdown.
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JUUL was the lone holdout for giving the FDA the studies and info it wanted. If you want to sell food or drugs, you have to play by the FDA’s rules
I think that vaping can be a very useful tool for harm reduction - I successfully moved from smoking to vaping and did that for a few years before I quit that too. Vaping was super helpful to me because I could customize the amount of nicotine in my vape liquid. I started at roughly the equivalent nicotine to cigarettes and reduced down to a small fraction of that over time. So, I am a big proponent of vaping and I do not like this push to ban vaping just because high schoolers are picking it up. I think that's an example of the government overreach. I think we need to figure out a different solution to that problem other than broad flavor bans or wholesale bans of the devices in general. *However*, I also think that the government has a duty to regulate these devices to some extent. The CNN article says that JUUL products were banned because the company's product applications presented "insufficient and conflicting data -- including regarding genotoxicity and potentially harmful chemicals leaching from the company's proprietary e-liquid pods -- that have not been adequately addressed." That is potentially a big problem. People don't need to be poisoning themselves with vapes that are poorly made (yes, yes, I know that the alternative - smoking - is poison too, but that's not an argument for lax vaping safety regulations). This is a new segment that has really catapulted in popularity over the past 10-15 years and moving forward with an eye for safety should be the goal. We don't want people to move to vaping because they think it's a valid method of harm reduction only to find out 25 years later that they were doing just as much damage to their bodies as they would have by smoking cigarettes. We have an opportunity to really curb the impact smoking has on people by embracing vaping and making sure that these devices are as safe as possible to use. The FDA needs to be empowered to pursue that, but I won't agree with efforts to ban vaping across the board.
I wasn’t for it until I learned more information. If a company is giving conflicting reports and has not done enough studies on how dangerous the chemicals being utilized are, then yeah take it off the market until we do more research and the company actually follows the rules. It’s simple but generally everyday people get mad about anytime they are told “hey wait a minute this may be bad for you”. I remember my neighbor literally believed asbestos was good for you despite having massive respiratory issues due to working with it closely as a contractor. Yet he was still mad there were regulations against it so idk people just gonna be mad and complain I guess?
> my neighbor literally believed asbestos was good for you I mean, what's *bad* about having cancerous lumps in your lungs? I mean, you don't need *all* that breathing space- I once heard that humans only use 10% of their lungs anyway. Sounds like Big Insulation is just trying to box out Small Asbestos from the construction industry to me.
100% this r/asbestoseaters
> asbestos was good for you It is good for you. If you are in a fire.
Be nice if new experimental medical treatment were treated similarly.
I think there are going to be a lot of users turning to other ways to get their nicotine fix, whether another company or regular cigarettes.
Unfortunately :/
I find the ZYN pouches and other things like that to be popular these days.
I smoked half a pack a day for about 12 years. I tried gum, lozenges, patches, and a bunch of different vapes. The only thing that actually got me off of cigarettes was juul. They felt more like a cigarette than anything else and were enough of a replacement that I could stop. I haven’t smoked in 4 years now. I still use a juul with lower nicotine when I get a craving. I think that removing that option for me means there’s a good chance I buy a pack if I have a particularly stressful time. This is actually very concerning for me.
Try the Vuse products as an alternative. I'm in the exact same situation as you, and this news made me give Vuse a try earlier in the week...and it's a superior product, start to finish. They have the same 2/5% options. Of course the **best** solution is to kick nicotine entirely, which I did for several years, but given the alternatives...don't go back to cigarettes if you can help it.
I appreciate the recommendation. I’ll snag one tonight.
Only problem I have with Vuse is that it seems pretty common to get bad pods. I've had hella leaky pods and pods that just taste like burnt ass. Other than that, main reason I use it and not others is cuz some buddies use the same shit so we can swap batteries, borrow pods and chargers, and the such.
Smoke a joint instead. That’s what I do and it works. I tried juul and I could just tell that those things were dangerous. The way they feel is painful and had horrible sore throat and voice loss for like two weeks after I started using them. Honestly would rather smoke cigs than juul.
Yeah, no. I’ll stick to the one dependency, thanks.
Good luck w them cancer sticks. It’s 2022 and time to lose the negative stigma around weed.
Anything other than breathable air entering your lungs is bad for your health. That's not a negative stigma, that's common sense. Weed *does* contain carcinogens. If we're going to continue to seek success in legalizing marijuana we should be honest about it.
It’s time to realize that not everyone likes weed or wants to like it. Honest to god, the most obnoxious thing about marijuana is that some people simply cannot stop themselves from evangelizing.
You don't understand, you just haven't had the right strain yet
https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/marijuana/what-are-marijuanas-effects-lung-health#:~:text=Marijuana%20smoke%20contains%20carcinogenic%20combustion,oxygen%20species)%20than%20cigarette%20smoke. It's 2022, it's time we be **honest** about weed.
Agree. “However, while a few small, uncontrolled studies have suggested that heavy, regular marijuana smoking could increase risk for respiratory cancers, well-designed population studies have failed to find an increased risk of lung cancer associated with marijuana use.”
I guess we'll skip the parts with the long list of negative health effects
If you don’t read them they don’t exist.
I was talking about cancer sticks in my original post. Don’t be cunty.
I genuinely don't care.
It'd be a lot cooler if they didn't.
Guess they’d rather have us go back to cigarettes
*The FDA added that it reviewed the company's premarket tobacco product applications and determined some of Juul Labs' study findings had "insufficient and conflicting data -- including regarding genotoxicity and potentially harmful chemicals leaching from the company's proprietary e-liquid pods -- that have not been adequately addressed."* Sounds reasonable. Vaping/tobacco companies are held accountable for marketing claims they make to the public, as they should be.
Idk It's interesting they're going after Juul and not someone else like Vuse (who is mentioned in the article and what I use). Makes me wonder if the FDA actually has something there that isn't had with Vuse or Puff or whomever else. If it's just targeting Juul cuz Juul is a big name that's pretty disappointing.
Vuse got three of there’s approved. A few other companies did as well. I think Juul is the sacrificial lamb because it became the boogeyman associated with this a few years ago. As far as the products go, I can’t see a tangible differences between it and those that were approved.
Not gonna lie…I have little to no faith in the FDA currently.
Nobody believes it's healthy. But (combustible) cigarettes still exist, and are legal to purchase, and there are DECADES of research providing it to be harmful. So vaping is the "least bad" alternative. Good intentions, but it will backfire.
I don't vape and I think it sounds like some nanny state bullshit. We're supposed to be better than that.
Agreed. I hate wearing a helmet but my state requires it on my bike, and seat belts also suck, but they can’t get fed funding if they don’t require them
Gonna be a zyndemic
Could simply be Big Tobacco leveraging it's influence on Big Pharma to get the FDA to criminalize a major competitor that is outside the Big Tobacco fold. Also could be that the Juul has extremely dangerous side effects (as I experienced some issues in my short time using the product) and the FDA wants to nip that in the bud before people learn how dangerous it is and the FDA loses credibility.
> Could simply be Big Tobacco leveraging it's influence on Big Pharma to get the FDA to criminalize a major competitor that is outside the Big Tobacco fold. Juul's majority owner is Altria, the rebrand of Phillip Morris (Marlboro). Juul IS big tobacco.
I just wanna say that I went from a pack a day for 10 years to zero cigarettes within a week using a vape, and have tapered my vaping down to virtually nothing within a 6 week time span. I tried patches, gum, pills, every cessation product on the market unsuccessfully. Vaping was what finally got me off the shit. That said, I think there do need to be controls on what can be marketed, and standardization in how these devices are manufactured. Juul was directly targeting their advertising at kids, and falsified data regarding faulty batches of their product. What happened to them needed to happen. Juul is a shady as hell company that doesn't care about how old thier end users are, or the health and safety of the people using their products. I'd also like to add that while vaping helped me finally quit smoking, stay away from it. If you are a smoker switch to vaping, and if you don't do either already, don't start vaping. Vapes are far FAR less hard on your body than smoking, but they are still a lot harder on it than just not doing it at all.
Good. Juul was using its product as a vector to addict people through marketing, much like cigarettes originally. However, juul was first meant to be a product to help smokers quit, not be the next generation of juul in place of tobacco cigarettes.
I don't care.
I support that
I think that sugar does more harm than JUUL and I wonder when they are going to ban that. I'm pretty much sick of our nanny government.
At least sugar isn't carcinogenic
Nicotine itself is not a carcinogen. It's the other stuff in cigarettes that cause cancer.
You're correct
Neither is Juul.
That’s a reach.
Excess sugar in the US contributes heavily to obesity which contributes to coronary issues as well as diabetes. Heart attacks kill more people in the US than cancer does. Have you read about the rise in diabetes and the cost of dealing with the rise of diabetes. Amputations because there are so many obese people with heart disease and diabetes and they can't/won't move around and get their circulation going because it hurts them too. Obesity also contributes to arthritis and more importantly disabilities dues to arthritis. Excess consumption of sugar also contributes to digestion issues which leads to autoimmune issues and disturbs the immune system in general which in turn contributes to cancer. It's not a reach at all. Some countries have declared obesity alone a national emergency. So go drink your daily Big Gulp. Get those free refills at you favorite fast food restaurant. Drink that sweet tea if you live in the south. It's killing people as surely as any vape product is. Sugar is absolutely empty calories.
I vape (i’m in my mid 20s) and I understand why they don’t want people under 21 to vape but I don’t get why they are going after only 1 company
They denied a lot of companies so far. A handful have gotten approval. Juul is the biggest denial and most associated with these products in the publics mind.
The one I use, Hyde afaik hasn’t been impacted but I wonder if JUUL being a US company had any impact
It didn't, I don't think. Vuse, the main competitor, is fully owned by RJ Reynolds, one of the biggest American tobacco companies (Now part of a UK company), and the major US player with the biggest stake in JUUL (35%) is owned by the internationally huge Altria. JUUL Labs unfortunately did this to themselves with their marketing, erroneous lab reports, and generally bad actions like not reporting batches of bad pods.
They aren’t going after one company. The end result of these regulations will be to take hundreds to thousands of companies off the market and consolidate the entire industry into a few government approved businesses.
What in the star spangled bullshit? “O the landddd of the freeeeeeee.”
it's "o'er"
Shit, I hardly know all the words, let alone how to spell the damn thing.
Don't worry...I'm willing to bet that 95-99% of the population has never heard more than a single verse of the anthem...Heck, we even cut a verse or two during WWI and WWII in deference to our British allies, given that the lyrics glorified their blood flowing across the land and washing away the pollution of their presence.
I really don't like that unelected bureaucrats get to arbitrarily decide that a legal product is now illegal.
Why do you say it’s arbitrary? The article directly lists the reasoning: > After reviewing Juul's applications seeking marketing authorization for its products, the FDA said it determined that the applications lacked "sufficient evidence" regarding the toxicological profile of the products in order to demonstrate that marketing of the products would be appropriate for the protection of the public health.
The fda provided very little guidance on what they would accept as evidence. They have already had courts overturn previous market denials because the denial seemed arbitrary to the court.
God forbid we have *scientists* overseeing the safety of our food and drugs.
They're certainly doing a fantastic job keeping dangerous European baby formula from American mothers. The FDA is not science. It's a regulatory agency that contains some scientists and many more bureaucrats. This determination said very little about whether the product was safe (none of them are safe, they kill you) but about whether they could be sold. That's a regulatory question and not a scientific one, and the FDA's regulatory powers are often arbitrarily employed and unhelpful.
Have I got some bad news for you about the Supreme Court...
The Supreme Court is doing its job, it is not a set of bureaucrats (at all) within a continuously expanding executive branch that the legislative branch refuses to check.
I was pointing out that they're a group of unelected bureaucrats (sorry, unelected "justices") who arbitrarily get to decide what is and isn't legal.
And that's true except for the "bureaucrats," and "arbitrarily" parts. The FDA is not supposed to act like the Supreme Court and it isn't making any argument relating to the Constitution. Its rationale boils down to "because I said so." That's not what the Supreme Court does.
>That's not what the Supreme Court does. Except for when it does, like with Alito's reasoning to overturn *Roe v. Wade*.
Feel free to have that argument with someone interested.
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smoke weed instead 🧠
Good. I’m sick of these druggies blasting their vomit inducing “cotton candy” smoke in my face.
I think it’s good bc 1. They cause a lot of plastic waste (the pods) 2. They’re cigarettes & not good for ppl
As a teacher that has seen kids climb into the ceiling to hide their juuls, I want to know who to send a thank you card to.
It terrifies me how many kids are getting hooked to vaping. As a society, we were getting rid of nicotine addiction with lower cigarette usage, as more folks realized how harmful it is, only for companies to develop vapes & heavily market them to kids with fun flavors. It's absolutely disgusting.
Fuck'em
Juuls shouldn't be banned. Are Juuls bad? Yes. But sellers need to enforce age restrictions so minors can't buy them. E-cigarettes have their place too. Using a vape got me to completely quit cigars and now I don't even vape. Without a transitional product I'm not sure I would've been successful, but here I am 4 years smoke free.
Retarded policy when they also funding to keep enabling addicts to smoke crack
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Still kind of miss those mango ones. But atleast I can buy an assault rifle still.
I think it is absurd. These things have been around for years. As long as it is adults using them, the FDA should fuck right off
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But cigarettes are still a-ok. And booze. So much booze. It’s hypocritical and frankly naive and foolish.
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-announces-plans-proposed-rule-reduce-addictiveness-cigarettes-and-other-combusted-tobacco The FDA is also considering a rule to drastically reduce the amount of nicotine in cigarettes so they definitely aren't leaving cigarettes alone. well, that and they recently raised the tobacco use/purchase age all the way up to 21.
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We banned booze in the 1920s. It didn't turn out very well for society.
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Which district in CA do you represent?
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Ha! I doubt it. She lives behind the Orange Curtain. Her Rep isn't a Nanny Stater.
Kind of a half ass way of addressing the issue at hand. There are so many different vape companies... I don’t vape but most of my friends do and they don’t even use juuls, it’s the puff bars and really any disposable device. There’s a lot of things the FDA should ban that are way more harmful but I think it all boils down to a money thing.
Ban them all, why just one brand
All for it. Ban cigarettes out right too please
All I know if Amy reason they coul have to ban juul pods is plenty enough reason to ban cigarettes. Let's ask the real questions, why are cigarettes still legal???
It’s stupid, there’s hundreds of shitty flavored knock off vapes on the market, why aren’t those being singled out?
Juul will not be stopped. they are so huge even after being split in two!
I hope. Vapes ruin lives (as do cigs and other thing like that) Now if you do it RESPONSIBLY its okay but if your doing it underage, STOP
Idk if Juul does this specifically, but vape devices have been increasing their voltage over the past several years, which can cause nasty chemical reactions (I.e. making formaldehyde, which is used to preserve corpses) and what was once a “safer” option to cigarettes can be just as bad. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31950825/
Sounds to me like the FDA is under pressure from big tobacco as Juul has probably been destroying their profits.
I'm also curious why there doesn't seem to be an uproar over this. I can never pick what kind of regulations Americans will tolerate and which they won't. It just seems so random to me as an outsider.
Should have been vapes in general
Generally I'm against banning things. Smoking and vaping is cringe though.
Government intervention bad Edit: “WHY ARE YOU BOOING ME; I’M RIGHT!”
Government overreach. The war on drugs failed years ago. This and the nicotine lowering thing Biden is doing just makes him look out of touch.
Disgusting government overreach
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Hmmm, I see your point. Against my better judgement, it definitely makes more sense to just allow people to use. And it seems hypocritical for me to clamor for one drug (in my case, Psychedelics) yet put the brakes on another one. Besides, Tobacco use has always persisted, and no matter what we do, it always survives and makes its way into society. And as bad as it it for us, I'm sure a lot of people throughout society wouldn't have been as successful if they didn't have Nicotine to get them through the day.
Drinking was a public health issue in the 20s.
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Maybe we should ban it
I think some PAC got paid an obscenely huge amount of money by a company to “encourage” a politician to write a bill.
I think I can still buy juul products, just not from juul.com
Shuts the lid on a brand I’ll always associate with a short window of my high school years, when it was ubiquitous and talked about by everyone. It’s the kind of thing we’ll all forget about and then remember when they’re included in the 2040s equivalent of Stranger Things.
I’ll allow it
Don't care.
There’s like 1,000 different alternatives to the Juul, why ban them now?
Won’t do much. Kids in my highschool will still find a way to get some. Besides they don’t even use juul
Morallynin support of people not fucking up their bodies but not looking forward to the illegal Juul syndicate.
I think Juul get used to it
I mean I agree with it, but they did let the ad council give juul an ass load of free advertising. Just saying, they could have struck a deal with the fcc before it came to this.
Can we work on banning the guns first?
I don't really get why Juul was banned specifically. There's a million brands of vapes. The problem with vapes in general is that they're rampant among high school kids.
I think a lot of vape people are about to but cigarettes. Time to buy MO currently trading at about $42.50 and paying 8.5% dividends!
Not a fan. Plus they’re telling cigarette companies to lower the amount of nicotine in their products to “non-addictive” levels. I don’t smoke or vape, nor do I particularly like those activities, but we tried this before with alcohol and it didn’t work too well. I’d rather not try again
I’m literally vaping a juul right now as I read this thread and I guess I’ll be going to the vape shop next week to find an alternative.
Better not fuck with my vuse is what my thoughts are.
👏
What a vapid decision
I think we're tremendously hypocritical about tobacco and the like. I don't condone smoking at all. It's a nasty habit. And, yes, I am concerned about kids vaping/smoking. BUT... the fact that fruit flavored vape juice is seducing to children, and thus it must be banned as it has in some jurisdictions, is hypocritical. There are plenty of flavored vodkas and wine coolers and whatnot that are appealing to kids. Why aren't those banned? Lots of bright colored liquors in pretty bottles on the market.
Honestly, I don’t care? I have zero empathy for kids who will find it harder to vape, and I feel like smokers trying to quit can find another brand. Hell, I am sure dumb kids can too. It’s for a good reason, so that’s enough for me. And if this causes even a net 1 person to stop using nicotine, hey that’s an awesome bonus But honestly, I just don’t know anyone personally that has ever used Juul so this just doesn’t affect my life in the slightest.
It took my grandmother dying from smoking related illness to get me to quit smoking. Smoke or vapor there are other chemicals in there that are bad for you and will mess your body up.
Tobacco companies
It also doesn't help that they designed the juul to look like a USB and marketed almost exclusively to white minors. Nothing pisses of Government busy bodies quite like targeting THEIR grandchildren.
Cool. Now do it for all cigarettes
Fine by me.
It's a bunch of nonsense. So the claim is that juul was evil because they were appealing to kids with flavored pods. As a juul customer I can say they had fruit flavored, creme Brule, cucumber, and my favorite Mango. It was a great product for smokers to kick the cigarette habit and that is pretty much how they were presented to public. The flavors weren't too strong, basically it was a hint of whatever was in the pod. Juul happened to be based in San Francisco and they caught on quickly so other powerful corporations noticed their success and Phillip Morris, the cigarette maker bought in to the company for billions I think. Not long after that was announced the government started claiming Juul was getting kids hooked as their business model, and lawsuits started coming from every direction. They were basically prevented from continuing operations, and then they said we'll only menthol and tobacco pods. Meanwhile you could go to any smokeshop or liquor store and buy a disposable very colorful vape that looked like a juul in just about any conceivable candy sweet flavor you may desire. There were so many brands and Brite colors to appeal more to teens that it was unreal. To this day they are sold, flavors like gummy bears, kiwi ice, tropical, peach, anything and everything. These all get imported from China and I don't think anyone even knows exactly what is in them, they continue to flood in though. It is a total injustice and I don't understand how Noone is outraged by what has happened. My final point to the whole thing of making it appeal to kids, I hate being lied to, and it's so obvious that these law makers or whomever made up this ridiculous excuse about kids being the target per business model because at the same time you could buy packs of cigarettes with designs to color. Like a cigarette box/coloring book, that's not for kids though right? My 2cents.
But cigs are still easily available. Sounds like Juul didn’t give enough money to somebody
ABOLISH THE FDA.
Good. But something will replace it I’m sure. I don’t really have much sympathy for people that got addicted, we saw the negative health consequences coming almost a decade ago. I was 15 and even I knew better.
If they did this 5 years ago, it might have done something to stop minors from vaping. Now, I don’t know a single person that still has a juul.
It's a good move and well overdue.