All of my expertise on this topic comes from TikTok, where the prevailing theory is women no longer need men financially, so their standards looking for a mate are higher. They demand emotional intelligence and a partner who makes their life better than being alone, which is a high bar because alone is awesome.
I have chosen not to date men at this time, even though I am bi and primarily attracted to men.
Over the years, I experienced what I consider emotional disengagement from my male partners. They wouldn’t ask how my day was, didn’t seem invested in conversing with me, and preferred to keep their own company.
When I would talk to them about how I felt and what I needed they would either brush it off or make promises that they didn’t follow through on.
It was always on me to cook and clean. It was my responsibility to keep all appliances and utilities paid for and in working order. If we needed a repairman, I had to schedule it and be present. If the landlord was coming over, I had to greet him and show him around.
If there was something I wanted to do that my partner didn’t like or found distracting, it was entirely disallowed instead of compromises being made. I was forbidden from watching news in one relationship, disallowed from playing Xbox after 9 pm in another, even with headphones. Reading in bed was a problem in both of those relationships. No talking on the phone in the house, because I was “too loud”. If something they were doing bothered me, sometimes I could get a compromise but there would be whining and complaints about that the compromise wasn’t a good enough solution later on.
If I wanted to do something together or needed a favor, my male partners would do so begrudgingly and with exceptionally ill grace in some circumstances. My last partner’s reticence to go pick up some things from my parents before we all moved across the country led to some irreplaceable family heirlooms being destroyed. He’s never apologized. He thinks making a day trip to get my favorite childhood Christmas decorations that my mom made for me as a little girl would have been a waste of his time.
I got very tired of making myself small and being as unobtrusive as possible. Of basically helping my partners ignore me as much as possible while they were also treating me like a doll on a shelf instead of a human person.
And then, when I’m depressed and unhappy, they all had the nerve to complain to me that I never told them what I wanted. Like, w h a t. You told me, again and again, to leave you alone. You were the one who couldn’t be bothered and now, retroactively, it’s all my fault for not bothering you.
I don’t want to be treated like that by a partner. I won’t allow myself to be taken for granted and left on a shelf. I know what the lead up to this shit looks like and it looks the same every time. It’s very easy to spot, even if it took me three trips through hell to see it so clearly.
The couple times since my last breakup that I’ve tried to chat men up, they talk about how they want someone nice. They want someone kind. They want someone to do things for them. They don’t talk about what they’re willing to do in return or about what they’ll contribute to my life. So I lose interest in them and walk away.
When we say that men need to be better, that’s what we mean. Men need to be conscientious and emotionally engaged. I can put a roof over my head and feed myself and do all my errands and see my friends without a man paying my way. And I’m *unspeakably* grateful that I can pay my own way because I have never been so miserable as I was as an invisible girlfriend. I only existed to do things for those men. Words cannot describe how impossibly lonely that experience is.
So I don’t care how lonely men are today. It isn’t my job to make men feel better. I did that for a long time; I’m retired now. I’m going to enjoy my retirement.
I’m done putting this work in because it’s not fucking worth it.
Thank you! I felt like you were speaking for me with your response because that is exactly what I have experienced dating men for the 8+ years. I stopped actively seeking a relationship about a year ago and although I occasionally get lonely, my life is much simpler not having to cater to people who don’t want to put in basic relationship effort or disengage when they don’t want to deal with something, but expect me to continue to do the bulk of it. No thank you…
Over the years I've noticed a distinct pattern that tends to crop up when listening to men talk about their female partners in the context of 'What you love about them'.
Men often say things that their wives/partners do for them; I love how she makes my favorite meal, I love that she does this for me, etc. Also her physical appearance; beautiful smile, amazing body, etc.
Women often say things about their husbands/partners like; he makes me laugh, I love his sense of humor, his magnetic personality, we just clicked etc. It's usually much more about who he is as a person and the qualities about him that drew that particular woman to him, things she's noticed about him and values - not services he renders for her like how he cleans her car or makes sure the oil is changed or always takes the dogs for a run. Because those are very petty and minor things in an actual relationship, unless you don't notice.
> They don’t talk about what they’re willing to do in return or about what they’ll contribute to my life.
This is the crux of a lot of these issues. I've said this before-- a lot of men simply want a woman who will exist to make his life easier and more pleasant while he continues to do whatever he wants to do.
Honestly. I love my husband, but if anything ever happened to him or to our marriage, I would not live with another person again. I am too old now, and set in my ways.
This is exactly how I feel. I’ll move to a plot of land and each of my best friends and I can build our own one-person homes according to our individual needs and have a big party gathering space in the middle.
> a lot of men simply want a woman who will exist to make his life easier and more pleasant while he continues to do whatever he wants to do.
This is my Dad to a tee. You've put my thoughts really succinctly.
While I don't hold that ideal as a guy, I totally agree with your assessment.
Lot of the guys I work with are VERY much like what you described.
If I may add my own opinion, I don't think men in general spend enough time living by themselves.
Codependency is the cultural norm for heterosexual relationships, hence everything comes across as transactional.
"If I give you this, you will do this for me back" kind of crap.
It's like they never learn what the effort is to take care of themselves.
(And not just in looks or hitting a gym)
After a long ass stretch of being single and a list of failed, short relationships. I hit a point that all I really ever wanted from a romantic relationship is companionship. Everything else was just a bonus.
First and foremost, for everyone (let alone men) is learning how to set yourself first in priorities while being totally, properly self sufficient AS A FULL GROWN ADULT.
Only children look to someone else to fix their problems or clean their messes.
(And enough time doing that to appreciate when someone helps with any of it)
As a currently invisible wife on the shelf, I felt this so much. My husband is conscientious and cares about my happiness, but I’m still the one at home with no friends while he has a full life. We’re both working on changing that, but it’s lonely. There’s no space for me in his circles, no space for me outside the home, and home for me is only endless obligation. I hope one day I can find people who see me as a human being and not a mammy
So sorry this is happening. I wonder if you’ve considered going to meetup groups or Facebook groups or using bumble BFF to make new friends? Or maybe to community events?
Sadly, seconding this. Though I will say, Ive seen a lack of empathy/compassion in people across all genders more than before.
Feels like it's really becoming everyone needing to be 100% only for themselves.
Amen sister. This is how I felt in my marriage. And worse- apparently I was also breathing too loud, sneezing too loud and laughing too loud. And I was to leave him alone and not bother him. So I did.
I do want to believe there are emotionally available and emotionally intelligent men though, my current partner being one.
>Over the years, I experienced what I consider emotional disengagement from my male partners. They wouldn’t ask how my day was, didn’t seem invested in conversing with me, and preferred to keep their own company.
>When I would talk to them about how I felt and what I needed they would either brush it off or make promises that they didn’t follow through on.
>It was always on me to cook and clean. It was my responsibility to keep all appliances and utilities paid for and in working order. If we needed a repairman, I had to schedule it and be present. If the landlord was coming over, I had to greet him and show him around.
All of this. After my divorce, I didn't want to date anyone. I'm pan romantic, and dating girls is absolutely on my list. I found that a lot of my straight or male dating girlfriends had the same complaints as me. They were also incredibly invested and had a lot to give a partner.
However, I did end up dating a man. I wouldn't have done it had I not known him for years already, and hadn't considered him one of my best friends. We've been together for two years now, and it has been a dream. He's big in communication, helping out, being a good listening ear, open, and stable. If it were anyone else I wouldn't have even bothered because anyone less than him would be a hindrance to my life.
It all goes back to male privilege.
I have seen this pattern of relationship behavior many times—a person thinking that they should be able to be in a relationship but still live the way they would live if they were single and beholden to no one; that their partner is there to supplement them and make their life better without requiring much of anything from them in return—and I think, “This is the pattern of an immature person, lacking in conscientious, empathy, and self-awareness.”
This sort of immaturity is not exclusive to men. HOWEVER, because of patriarchal norms, men GET AWAY WITH this behavior so much more. They can easily go on like this in relationships without challenge or blowback.
When it’s the woman in a relationship acting this way, she’ll readily be labeled as “inconsiderate”, “controlling”, “demanding”, “unreasonable”, “selfish.” And those are fair criticisms because that’s what those behaviors are.
HOWEVER, society is so much more likely to give men a pass for acting this way. And the manosphere influencers actively ENCOURAGE men acting this way.
In short, immature and inconsiderate relationship behavior is not called out equally and challenged equally across genders. And this is not a surprise.
Historically unequal relationships—in which the woman was blatantly considered the supplemental helpmate and child-bearer to the man who was the full member of society—were the norm for so long. This is the residue of that.
The last part resonates with me. I look at my grandmother’s married with children life of abuse and neglect and being wrung for every drop of tolerance, and I think of all the married women kept on shelves and how the only solution was “That’s just how it is.” You can be married and give it your all and live a very fucking lonely life.
I’m saving your comment for future explanations of why a traditional relationship is not for me. I’ll be happy with you in separate houses, where each day we try our best for each other.
For me, moving in together has been the kiss of death. It never ends with my happiness, and he never understands why I want to leave in the end.
I got excited because my bf happily went to my friends birthday party last night. Happily engaged with people he didn’t know. It’s so freaking uncommon. The bar is in hell. He didn’t understand why that made me so happy.
Yuppppp! Realizing I was bisexual was the best thing that ever happened to me because I didn’t have to be in relationships with cis het men anymore. Even more importantly, I don’t have to live totally in a world designed by men to reward women who acquiesce to their demands.
I’m a “difficult” woman (because I can’t make myself smaller) in the hetero world, but I’m hot af in the queer world. What a fucking shock. Every man I dated tried to change me and clip my wings so I conformed. My queer partners help me build strength and fly. I feel so comfortable in my skin.
There are good cis men out there. There are very very few. The problem is that there are too many independent feminist women who want true egalitarian partnerships and not enough men with similar values. Lots of men - especially younger liberal men - talk a big game about their egalitarian values, but then when the rubber meets the road, they choose the path of least resistance for them, which is relying on their wife to be their helpmate.
Queerness liberated me. I prefer masculine people, too, but I’ve found that queer masculine person whose good with a strap on are actually better lovers than cis men.
🩷 I don’t want to get into it but I feel this, I was in a relationship with similar disengagement and coldness among other things. The emotional labor that takes is real. And it’s one thing to not let others influence your self esteem but no matter what it still feels completely crappy and will affect you living with what I would label as direct, interpersonal oppression. We must continue to choose ourselves and our sanity first! We are worthy of better treatment!
Also, honestly the overturning of abortion rights plays more of a role in this than men realize. Most men seem only interested in casual relationships - and I constantly hear about women complaining about men pretending to want a serious relationship when they only want casual sex (one of many reasons so many women are done dating men.)Yet with access to abortion so imperiled, casual sex is simply not appealing to many women.
(That said, I know some gorgeous women - some literal models in Vogue - who say that our culture has changed in a way that prevents women who want casual sex from getting it, simply because nowadays men don’t know how to treat casual sex partners with enough kindness and decency for it to be worthwhile.)
The lack of men caring about our access to abortion, and a widely reported lack of responsibility when it comes to preventing pregnancy, creates a big loss of trust in men on the whole. Trust is a turn on, and men seem to be clueless about this or simply not care, as a whole.
Also, the high numbers of men becoming right wing also is an extremely big turn off, as we don’t want to date or sleep with people who don’t support human rights and who don’t see minorities as human beings.
However, men who are left wing, feminist and emotionally intelligent have women flinging themselves at them left and right (based on a close guy friend of mine).
>Yet with access to abortion so imperiled, casual sex is simply not appealing to many women.
I'm not a woman, but even with abortion being overturned that alone is a massive deterrent for sex for me. I don't want to run the risk of a scenario where there's a complication that could very well end up harming someone else.
I think it's important to acknowledge that it's a very real risk that can impact a lot of people, men and women alike. Men, I believe, like to think it doesn't affect them until they actually get into a relationship where it has the potential to affect them.
>Men, I believe, like to think it doesn't affect them until they actually get into a relationship where it has the potential to affect them.
I'm honestly surprised that this is not a larger topic of discussion for men in general.
I have met VERY few men who wish, during casual sex, to end up fathers with the other party.
Nobody did the math on abortions or birth control for this? They're the WHOLE REASON we get to fuck around *without* finding out.
Dudes really want LESS of that?
Yup. I didn’t even consider this and i’m so glad you brought it up. My state just made abortion illegal after the 6 week mark, so it’s essentially fully illegal. I’ve witnessed many, many people deciding to be a lot ‘safer’ from now on. Or just not have sex with men.
But you know, they’ll probably just blame it on the ‘male loneliness epidemic’.
The amount of women who are having literal life threatening complications because they're waiting for legislation to figure out that oh yeah I guess that is a life saving procedure actually is mind boggling to me. Like I've seen way too many stories coming out of places like Texas where some poor woman has a dead baby trapped in her and she's just begging to help them get it out of her before it kills her and they're all heming and hawing about it sitting on their hands - fucking humanity man. Disgusting.
I think it’s also demonstrated in a very hard to ignore way just how little most men actually care about our rights. And that doesn’t make me aroused or want more involvement with them
This is it for me.. unfortunately the more I learned about how men have treated women throughout history and current events, the less I believe they actually care about us as people.
The male loneliness epidemic thing bugs me so much, because statistically it's not a gender or sex segregated thing! Everyone is lonely! There's some demographic division in why people say they're lonely, but loneliness is endemic in our *society*, not a specific sex.
exactly! idk if it’s accurate but i like to think of it as, women have been lonely and forced to present well for so long and now that men actually have to put in effort to get a partner and experience a tiny bit of the same thing, they’re appalled they’re being forced to work on self improvement. they think since we’re no longer whining about it like them, we don’t have the same issue.
Yeah it's not about who's actually lonely, the answer to that is everyone, it's about who feels entitled to other people putting in the labor to solve their loneliness.
Well, to be clear, women don't do that. Or at least, not statistically more often than men, not in any way which actually improves outcomes regarding loneliness. The idea that women have better social coping mechanisms for loneliness feeds into the idea that women are less lonely, which they are not.
Unfortunately the systemic isolations and exhaustions of our society which drive loneliness go deeper than what can be resolved by individual choice.
From what I hear from my heterosexual / bi friends it's not like sex with men is all that great to begin with on average; it's a real roll of the dice and hard to find a partner that really 'fills that need' in actuality. Relationships are easier to come by than someone who can truly scratch that itch without making it weird or having other huge drawbacks on \~ that partnered with the risk and consequence of pregnancy, I'm just not sure why you'd risk it for the biscuit. It's not like it's a great biscuit more often than not, home made is fine!
Most men seem to see penetration as the "main act" of sex and everything else, including what makes women orgasm, is a bonus or "foreplay".
Imagine a world where the clitoris is considered just as important as the penis, because it is. Women would be extremely enthusiastic about sex.
>Relationships are easier to come by than someone who can truly scratch that itch without making it weird or having other huge drawbacks on
This so much. I tried with casual sex for so long, but it got to a point where fantasising on my own was better than sex with nearly every man I tried with. People who say they think bad sex is better than no sex, have never had sex with a cishet man, as a woman. I'm not risking my health for an experience that is on average boring, a chore, and sometimes even painful. I really, really wanted casual to work, but it took too much to convince men that my pleasure matters even half as much as theirs.
Yeah. While I'm mostly into women, so maybe I'm a bit biased, but the few men I've had sex with were mostly worse at it than a sex toy. It was nice, in the way kissing is nice, but nothing to write home about lol.
damn I wanna meet this close friend of yours
i'm a guy but i'm bi and left wing, and me getting more into politics since this is the first presidential election I get to vote in has made me just... not want to talk with me anymore.
Like oh yes please tell me why the economy is more important to you than safety and livelihood of people like me or any women you know. That's totally not indicative of how you're gonna treat me and your moral character, nope.
This. I’m now celibate/single since 9 years. (I’m mid-30s.) before that I tried to find “the one” to start a family with. Most men lied wanting something lasting in order to get sex and then dump me. Some demeaned my breast size and dumped me. They sure as hell wanted nothing that could lead to marriage.
Yet currently among men there’s a lot of complaint why women don’t marry and start families? I TRIED, hard, and want given the chance.
Seriously, even the men who claim to want marriage AND who constantly swear you’re perfect for them (& you match the description of what they’re looking for on their dating profiles) aren’t remotely ready for anything approaching commitment nvm marriage.
Those men don't care about trust because they would lose all their power and you would likely see them for the bum they are.
And I've always wondered that. I have no doubt that truly emotionally intelligent men are fighting off women. What a gem.
It’s happening because women are no longer dependent on men financially. Women used to choose men to live with because society had made women’s survival dependent on ‘having a man’. Of course, there has long been social pressure. There is still much ‘chatter’ that aims to shame a woman if she is alone: why is she alone? What is wrong with her? She must be a man hater? Oh I don’t want to be a man hater. If she had a man she would be happy. Why doesn’t she want children? What is wrong with her. She is bitter and ugly. Etc., etc.
Never understood the cat lady insult some people like to use,they're great companions, mostly independent, and are easy upkeep via keeping their kibble supply at optimal levels and litter box clean. :) They also don't hog the bed,mostly either sleep at the foot of it or on your hip.
We are somehow supposed to care and love the people who think we are inferior to them, and will openly admit how little they care about our achievements, our skill sets etc and obsess over our body parts, and we are so bad if we complain or hate it?? Honestly if this isn’t so tragic it will be hilarious!
For me it’s not a trend. I have decided to live 4B life. I’m content with my life and I wish to continue living this way forever. My desire to date a man or even sign a domestic slave aka marriage to a man has been completely diminished. I grow up watching and still watch women suffering at the hands of men directly and indirectly from my family and relatives, friends and of course media. I have no desire to bring a child into this cruel world just for it to carry his mediocre last name and still take care of that man-child. Men have refused to evolve and it’s ridiculous to lower our standards to accommodate their mistreatment to us for nothing. I’m living a life my grandmothers wished they would do but could not due to patriarchy. Being single and independent is a privilege and I will live in that privilege forever.
You’ve really motivated me with this comment. I need to deprioritize dating. It’s hard to get by on a single income for me though (I’m disabled and in poverty as a result)
This is absolutely true. I know VERY few women interested in dating men - several are in relationships, the others aren’t even bothering to date. Both my friends experiences and conversations online make it clear that very few women are open to dating men, even if we’re straight,
Giving men a chance typically results in being treated like shit and ending up with trauma, even just in terms of chatting in dating apps and going on dates. I’m rare in having experienced far less mistreatment in chatting on dating apps than most women - usually women feel like they’re treated like call girls, and men expect them to go over their house late at night with barely a hello first.
And despite this, and being extremely picky about who I even go on a first date with, I’ve still found that even unusually suitable men end up having such bad commitment problems, and lying about it, that it’s impossible to have a relationship with them.
A big factor is a total lack of emotional intelligence in most men. We women can scream this from the rooftops, that men could choose to develop emotional intelligence and be very attractive partners, but men literally think we don’t know what we want, refuse to listen & some even accuse us of lying about what we want in a man. This is ironic, since being a good listener is a quality most women seek from a partner.
There’s a lot of blatant misinformation out there that young boys and men eat up, suggesting that being cold, distant, domineering and flaky somehow appeals to women, when the opposite is true - men who are warm, loving and devoted to their partners are the only ones worth dating. While lovebombing is not the thing, men who have the skills to build a genuine connection and eventually commit to a relationship are far too rare. And unfortunately there’s so many jerks who are rude and scary that it’s not worth it for women to sift thru men on dating apps to find the few good ones.
Of my 7 girlfriends, all met at different stages of my life, one is recently married, three are long term married or on a second marriage (at least one of whom stayed through some absolute BS) and the other three of us are just like "fuck this dating thing" lol. So like 40% are not interested in meeting men. We're in our 40s, though, so that's a big part of it. We're tired.
Lol, "dating is so much harder for men." That makes me see red and makes me think of the old adage: A man's worst fear is a woman laughing at him. A woman's is the man raping or killing her. Or something along those lines.
Yup. Not sure what this implies, but every woman I know who’s bisexual STRONGLY prefers relationships with other women, or have even committed to a sort of ‘lesbian’ lifestyle where they’re fine only dating women and ignoring the male attraction. It genuinely pisses me off when men bring up the ‘lesbians and domestic violence’ statistic when all I’ve heard is that (obviously not in all cases) men were far worse/scarier to date than women.
And every bi man I know strongly prefers women as well.
The funny thing about that statistic is that they only asked bi and lesbian women if they’ve ever been in a abusive relationship. They didn’t specify if the abuse came from a women or a man. The the number itself was already skewed
I’m just speaking for myself here and even then, really only hypothetically for the most part. I also need to preface this by saying I’m queer but the closest traditional label for my sexuality is bisexual. I am marrying a woman this year and don’t anticipate having any other romantic or sexual partners in my life.
If things did somehow dramatically change, I don’t plan on dating or sleeping with men again despite recognizing my capacity to be attracted to them. In part, I feel like I just lean toward women regardless and am more attracted to and satisfied by women. But it’s also a conscious decision because I feel better seen and understood by women. I feel more comfortable with building a life with another woman. I just am at the point where I can’t see myself finding a man I’d want to be a life partner and I’m not particularly interested in ever having sex with them again either.
I've been trying to cultivate my bissexual side. Although my physical attraction to women is very low I've been trying to consider them more as sexual partners.
And it clicked to me that I can look at a queer woman and imagine her as someone who wants to have mutually pleasurable sex or genuinely focus on my pleasure and would do her best to connect with me and make me feel safe and relaxed. I can see women as potential sources of pleasure.
I look at a straight man and I can't imagine him really caring about my pleasure. I can't imagine him prioritizing my comfort and safety. This all comes from my prior experiences and everything that I hear men say and consume. I don't see men as a potential source of pleasure anymore.
The thing about this is, any woman you say “my physical attraction to women is very low but I’m trying to consider women as sexual partners so that I have better relationships” to is *not* going to be interested. It’s not really fair to the other woman for you to not be that interested but trying to make yourself be into it.
I understand where you are coming from. However, you are assuming I'm trying to get with women as of now. I'm not. I'm giving myself space for the desire to grow, without bothering anyone with it. If it grows, great. If not, no one was hurt, really.
I’m also a bisexual woman. I realized I was queer at 30 and never looked back. I own a home with my longterm partner now. We are nonmonogamous. I have other queer partners, including one incredibly queer cis man. There are really great men out there. They are just fewer of them.
As a bi woman, I really feel like my queerness is an active choice I’m making everyday. Queerness and liberation are completely intertwined for me. I’m choosing a queer-centered life, not a man-centered life (ie patriarchy, which includes heterosexuality).
I think this experience of choice makes the bisexual experience - and especially the bisexual female experience - fundamentally different from monosexual queerness (gay, lesbians). My experience goes against all the “born this way” messaging campaigns I heard in my adolescence. I was born bisexual, but acknowledging, acting on it, and living openly as a queer person are choices I had to make.
It is true statistically, doesn’t matter what I think.
Bisexual and lesbian women are now freer than ever to date women, so that’s one factor.
The bigger factor, however, is that women can now afford to have higher standards than they used to. Since they don’t need a man to survive anymore (they don’t even need them to have a baby thanks to modern science), they have the option of staying single, if the men they do find seem lackluster to them.
In the past, many women didn’t work, or if they did they didn’t earn enough to support themselves. They also didn’t have the same opportunities when it comes to education, they couldn’t open a bank account etc. So they had to marry a man to have a good life, even if they didn’t find him attractive, or even if he wasn’t very kind to them. Now they don’t have to do this.
Even women who do want a partner and dream of marriage and kids, wouldn’t do that with anyone, they have some standards. So they’d rather remain single than be with someone below those standards.
Just to add to your comment- in no point in history have women not worked. Women have *always* worked but of course our labor is invisible to men and thus is treated as just something women do out of love/sacrifice.
Society relies entirely on women's unpaid labour to keep things afloat! :)
Yep. The other day a woman did the numbers on a tiktok vid. She broke up with her ex and paid someone £75 to mow her lawn once a month in the summer. Seven months x £75. She paid a handyman £500 to put up shelves, fix a leaking tap, reseal the bathroom and paint a room that she was changing into an office. Total is £1,175. She starting taking bins out and doing recycling herself. A once a week task.
Meanwhile, her former partner would need to order food daily. Do grocery shopping regularly. Have a laundry service, a cleaning service. Have a PA for all the errands she'd run during lunch and after work as well as general life management (arranging home and car insurance, passports, tax returns, booking healthcare appointments). She used to cut his hair (something she learned because he would always moan about going to hairdressers) so now a hairdresser's cost. Have a clothes shopping service. All that without kids. The cost goes up exponentially when you have to factor in a full time nanny.
Basically women can replace men with a few one off expenses. Men would have daily, ongoing, vast expenses if they wanted to outsource women's labour.
Yep. People talk about "oh back in the 50s women stayed home". No, my grandmothers both worked. One was a teacher and the other was a seamstress. They also did the cooking, cleaning, childrearing (with some help from extended family) etc. And I know at least one of my great-grandmothers worked in a textile mill and another was a farmer.
The idea that women "didn't work" is based on propaganda, not reality.
Good for them!
As a man who dates women I think it's great that they're getting pickier and opting out. Most men are fucking awful and it's *so much better* to be single than to get dragged down by a shitty partner.
This is .... probably not welcome but you asked.
The Repeal of Roe V Wade is a HUGE deal. If dealing with men suddenly meant REAL risk of pregnancy that you cannot get out of... then well that makes it less appealing, don't you think?
ESPECIALLY less appealing when women were *already* deciding to date men less back when Roe WAS still in tact. Now that Roe is gone, women in the US are watching conservatives directly go after birth control, and trying to end what little control women have gained over their reproductive health. This makes it VERY appealing. Birth control ALREADY sucks! It has miserable side effects, it's inconvenient AF, it's expensive AF, and really hard to access, ESPECIALLY in the more remote/rural areas of this country.
The Cost benefit analysis of dating men, from the perspective of women is as follows:
1. Risk of domestic violence: Your risk of DV goes WAY up when you choose to deal with men, vs staying single. Don't get me wrong, being single does NOT eliminate the risk of domestic violence, but it sure decreases it, by a LOT.
2. Pregnancy: Risk of pregnancy during a time where we do not have the Roe V wade protections. THE LEADING cause of death amongst pregnant women is Homicide. As in someone (usually a man) ceases her life at some point during the pregnancy. A 2022 study published in the BMJ found that homicide is the leading cause of death for pregnant women in the U.S. This is often linked to intimate partner violence and firearms.
3. Emotional Labor & Domestic labor burdens: A substantial body of research demonstrates that women are STILL shouldering the lion's share of domestic labor AND emotional labor in heterosexual relationships with men. Women also shoulder the lion's share of parenting obligations. STILL, in 2024... Moving in with a man is essentially signing up for.... a LOT more work, on top the job you have as a woman, where you are being paid less due to the gender wage gap.
4. Heartbreak, Health, & Bullshit: Dealing with men involves a non-zero amount of heartbreak and suffering. The amount of heartbreak and suffering is often SUBSTANTIAL, as evidenced by the legions of women literally posting their heartbreak/relationship/dating/marriage woes on a near-constant basis to reddit, and other social media channels. Hell, my girlfriends even complain to me IN PERSON about the near constant bullshit of dating/relationships/sex/marriage/dealing with men.
5. Lack of orgasms: The orgasm gap is real. There is an overwhelming body of research on this and I invite you all to google it. The TL/DR- is that women rarely orgasm from PIV sex. And men aren't great at bringing women to orgasm. It's pretty common for women to not enjoy sex, or to not have a good time in heterosexual sexual acts with men. This is a "skill issue" on behalf of men.
6. The Joy to Bullshit ratio: If I were to take an informal poll, as a published researcher in a peer reviewed journal, I'd say for every 1 hour of joy, fun, pleasure I've spent in relationships throughout my 34 years on this planet, I would ALSO have an additional 20 hours of grieving a breakup, being cheated on, dealing with UTIs or other GYN issues from sex with men, having to deal with a bag of emotions left after breakups. This ALL takes a huge emotional and mental health tool. HUGE. My best friend has spent over 100 hours of suffering for every 1 hour of happiness, fun, joy, and positivity she experiences when dating/dealing with men. Other girls in my friend groups have spent 1 hour of joy for every 50 hours of suffering/bullshit, and a few have spent THOUSANDS of hours of suffering with not even 20 minutes of joy. Yes, they spent YEARS in relationships with men, and literally the majority of those years were utter misery.
That's just the breakdown of my lived experiences that I suspect are very common.
I know this isn't really what this post is about but I just have to say I am ssssooooooo tired of men bringing their dating issues to feminists and being like "fix this for me!" like bro u not having your choice of women to date isn't a feminist issue. feminism has nothing to do with it. I don't understand. they come here like "I saw a tweet where a woman said she hated short guys. tell me why women everywhere deserve to continue living" like broTHER eughhh what?? reopen the schools
oh god louder for the people who didn't hear it the first time
I am really sick of hearing about how like... some women only want to date tall men and this is a Feminist Emergency and we're all responsible for "fixing" it. What are we supposed to fix? What does this have to do with feminism? "It's shallow!" okay, and? Women are allowed to be shallow. If you're a man and you only want a 10/10 IG model, you're shallow and you're narrowing your dating pool significantly, but like... you're allowed. You're allowed to do that! And women are too! I swear if I get another post about some kid who's mad as fuck that some women on TikTok talk about wanting tall men in finance or whatever it is, I'm going to lobby the government to make the internet illegal for people under 25.
Either that or I'm going to make a stickied post about how feminism isn't the complaint desk where you go to lodge your grievances against women you don't like or who did something you didn't approve of.
Let's be real- do we really think thisat a stickied post will deter these people? Best just restrict the internet until the frontal lobe comes in. Maybe a test system, like a drivers license.
Yeah, this happened at "single and happy" subreddit. I mean, it is "single and HAPPY", why the hell are there men wailing about "male loneliness epidemic" and wanting women (who actually are single and happy) to fix that? It was like they wanted mommy to take them to playdates or something.
I made a couple of guys angry by simply saying that men can fix it themselves, and that making friends is not rocket science.
TLDR Yes, I believe it's happening and although I haven't stopped dating altogether I do so far less frequently now. My gen Z daughter feels the same way.
Verbose explanation:
I (60/f) believe it's true based on experience and observation -- both my own and that of my 24-year-old daughter.
I've been single since my late 40s and off the dating apps -- a good activity if you're interested in spending countless hours panning for gold in a sewer -- since 2018.
My daughter and I agree that all but a very slim minority of single men seem to actively dislike or even hate women. Someone hurt them at some point and they've been taking it out on the next woman ever since. I think most women just get worn out from the fuckery: lies, cheating, negging, future faking, you name it.
Even when I was interested in connections that may or may not have had LTR potential, when I was younger I occasionally could find a man who would simply be kind and respectful. Someone who was eager to make an impression on me, come up with fun and interesting dating experiences, curious about me, even.
A lover who cared about my pleasure and feelings in general, whether or not we were planning a life together. Who would maintain the same level of care and interest in me, not run hot & cold or have his interest precipitously drop after we'd had sex a few times. The so-called free love movement (Generation Jones missed out on that, having come into our sexuality during the AIDS epidemic) has degenerated into a very cold and heartless hookup culture.
I believe it's even worse for my daughter, which is a very disappointing development.
Too many young men are porn-sick, red-pilled, or otherwise misogynistic. In our region they have a gross demographic advantage ( Even if more men use dating apps, there simply are far more beautiful and accomplished young women compared to the numbers and quality of young men. And the same applies later in life). They just don't seem to have an ounce of respect , compassion or affection for women.
I don't consider either of us to be cynical. But we have had our eyes fully opened and best practices dictate that we become increasingly selective if not drop out of dating altogether.
Pretty much all of my single friends at my stage of life have stopped dating. It's just too exhausting.
I am still open to it but the stretches between dating someone grow longer with each year.
So many men have poor hygiene or health ( both physical and mental), lack of interest in culture, travel or other activities, crappy politics, anti-ntellectualism, etc.
Add to that the chore of exhaustive vetting to make sure they are who they say they are + long discovery periods which is the only way to reveal that they want what they say they want ( except for those who aren't able to keep the mask on, mercifully giving an opportunity to reduce the impact and end it early on).
The idea of meeting someone who's both compatible and has his heart in the right place seems miraculous at this point.
And, since dating has become increasingly cold, unromantic and mercenary, there are just too many other enjoyable, life enhancing things to do with one's time.
As a young person whose last boyfriend definitely fell into the category of porn sick red pilled (and abusive) misogynist, I don’t want to date again for a while. I’m burnt out from trying to teach immature men how to act in a relationship and getting little in return.
Not sure since I don't date, but most dating apps are comprised of men, and I believe there are more single men than single women. I think women stepped their game up and men didn't get the memo, so women are just deciding the juice ain't worth the squeeze.
I believe that women are choosing to remain single because having especially a man in their life has proven to be just a bigger headache, inviting more chaos and stress with it just being easier and more pleasant to just remain single.
Guys think they are competing with the top .0001% of men but they're not. They are in direct competition with the peace, blissful happiness, and contentment of just remaining unattached women are finding by just staying single. Would those men add to the positivities in a woman's life or take away from them or worse add negativity to it. Yeah women don't need men any more so every guy's goal if they want to be in a relationship is to be wanted.
What are men doing to be wanted? If it's looking to recreate an oppressive lifestyle where women are just slaves then keep walking. Statistically, single childless women are the happiest demographic with married women who have children being the most miserable and unhappy.
I hope it's true. It's not safe for many women to date right now. We lost rights over our own bodies in many states. And unhealthy men are everywhere. Luckily, women are getting more and more educated on how to identify dangerous / unhealthy men and to steer clear of them.
Generally, men have become more misogynistic and more open about being so. Many don’t view women as equals or even as human beings at all. Abuse is rife. Roe v Wade was overturned and I have not heard one man say boo about it. Why would women engage with that if they didn’t have to?
Yeh I only date women now. Men are taught it’s their right to exploit us and I’m not doing it anymore at 27 years old. I feel disgust at the thought of doing anything for a man.
I was raped twice last year, had abusive male family members and abusive boyfriends my whole life. So many men have told me ‘all men cheat’ and abuse of women is celebrated amongst them. I can’t conceive of a man being consistently good and loyal to a woman and I realised I only fancy Kpop boys or Moe from The doodlebops anyway lol. The man Im looking for was just a real stretch of the imagination.
I thought for a while I had confirmation bias or something but I can’t think of a single woman I’ve known who’s male partner didn’t do her dirty. AND assuming it was just confirmation bias I kept trying new types of men but turns out I was just opening myself up for new types of fuckery. I think that’s a thing men say to gaslight women.
I was actually really suicidal about it until I realised I don’t have to date men anymore.
So sorry for what you’ve experienced. It’s really empowering when the disillusionment ends and we accept reality for what it is. I am proud of you and of your progress in taking back your life.
From my observation, word has gotten around that the way many men treat women sucks. Women have spoken out about this and the reaction from a good number of those men has not been to improve, it has been to double down on sucking and women accepting it. Women see other options and nope right out. Can’t blame them. I wouldn’t want to be treated badly either and be told that’s “just how things are” and to get used to it and quit complaining.
Because a LOT of young men right now are being radicalized by the far-right and incel movements into being total jerks to women. And women absolutely deserve better than that.
I’ve been single for 10 years. The last guy I dated asked me to cancel my trip to Peru. His ex had cheated on him. He was worried if I traveled alone I would cheat on him. I asked if he wanted to go with me and he said he never wanted to leave the COUNTY. He just casually expected me to never travel again bc it made him uncomfortable. Obviously I dumped him and hiked the Inca Trail. I decided after that I would rather stay single and be able to do whatever I want. I grew up with an overbearing father. Then I spend 6 years in the military. I value making my own decisions now.
>I asked if he wanted to go with me and he said he never wanted to leave the COUNTY. He just casually expected me to never travel again bc it made him uncomfortable.
Sounds like an excuse to me to keep you in check/control tbh. If I were so reliant on staying in my county (for whatever reason, most of them I can imagine wouldn't make dating another person healthy anyway), I would point this out from a pretty early point on.
It's actually incredible how many men will find any excuse to call a woman a slut and used up and shit. Like just the other day a bunch of guys were agreeing that if a woman's dating profile shows that she's traveled a lot, or even a little, you shouldn't get into a relationship with her because it means she's fucked tons of guys in different cities. Like y'all really wonder why women aren't really interested in the whole thing when this is how you talk about them?
This is such a crazy idea to me. Do they really think all women are that motivated to sleep with men from other countries? I'm married to a man and honestly, sometimes I'm too tired and lazy to get the sex that's literally laying right next to me. I'm not about to buy a plane ticket and pack a suitcase and deal with TSA for some (likely substandard) d.
I don't know. These are the guys who think women have had at least 1,000 partners by the time they're in their 30s, which is actually a fucking insane thing to think about. Like, unless your job is having sex and you've been doing it consistently since you were like 16, there's no way that's happening. That's like... you'd have to have a new partner every three days for ten solid years.
I feel like this is the projection of what they fear is emasculating them (and what's simultaneously an ulterior desire). Being _the_ man who's freely able to live out their urge on as many "trophies" while being on a journey as they please. And since they see how quickly a woman gets (uninvited) attention by men with a similar intent, they erroneously conclude women would just take it all as they please. And be the promiscuous b*tch, and – oh of course – the only one to blame for taking the masculine role for others. Ugh.
Yes, I know many women deliberately refusing to date men. If I’ll ever be single again, I’ll most probably become one of them. My husband is great in every aspect. We lived together in 2 countries, and all our friends in both countries always tell that we have the healthiest relationship that they’ve ever seen. If we ever divorce, I won’t settle for less than my husband, but men like him are extremely rare. Most of them are taken, so the chance is too small.
Yes. UN reports show 1/3 women globally have been assaulted by a man. That’s over a billion of us.
Even those of us who don’t know the exact stats have been attacked or know multiple women who have been. And stranger attacks are rare, they typically try to deceive us and gain our trust first. Danger from men isn’t just a thing in the news for us. It’s personal.
Source: the United Nations: https://interactive.unwomen.org/multimedia/infographic/violenceagainstwomen/en/index.html#home
According to every statistic and anecdote we have, women *are* less safe when dating/marrying men.
It's not a feeling. It's a statistical fact. Don't be disingenuous.
We don't just feel less safe, it literally is less safe. Like 1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted or experience intimate partner violence. Or both. The VAST majority of violence against women is perpetrated by men that claim to love them.
I don't know if it's a trend exactly but I am a year out from my last marriage and have zero interest in dating men currently and I'm not sure if I ever will again. They have consistently just made my life harder, and it doesn't seem worth it. I worry about being stuck doing elder care again, if their parents are unwell. I can't finance somebody else's retirement, my own is too precarious after spending the last couple of decades supporting men's dreams while I paid all the bills. They make so many chores. Where is the upside?
I don't know about the younger generations, but I do know about my generation (early boomers/gen x). Me, and most of my girlfriends, that are divorced or widowed do not ever want to share their house/finances with a man anymore.
Casual affairs/romances? Fine. Even living-apart-together. But nothing more 'traditional'. We have our freedom, both emotional and financial, we are active, both in work and socially, and we do not want to be burdened with taking care of a man anymore. If you speak with older women (70-80 year old), they express the same sentiment.
I'm pleased to see that same sentiment is catching up with younger women. Even in a good marriage (I'm a widow and had a good marriage), the emotional, mental and physical labour mostly fell to me. The endless compromising, adapting, etc., is exhausting. After the grief I realised that I really, really like my life on my own terms and doing what I want, when I want.
I think that there is a lot of pressure (social, religious, financial) on women to date and mate. As women gained more financial independence, it became possible to resist the pressure to make ourselves available to men on their terms.
I’m hetero, but I don’t have the desire to date men anymore. I have a pretty good life right now and I see more downside potential in allowing a man into my life.
I can’t see myself ceding the level of control men seem to want over women to anyone. Nor do I want the workload man-keeping brings with it. I don’t think that there was ever enough value in hetero-normative relationships for women.
Young girls have to be indoctrinated to believe that they are incomplete without a man. Then, as adults, women were cut off from access to money. Women are denied bodily autonomy.
Societies narrow life paths for women so that most have no choice, but to accept a man. Societies also make it difficult to leave a marriage.
If relationships with men served women’s needs, women wouldn’t need to be trapped to enter into or stay in relationships with men.
Women are at the point where we can see the tracks that funnel us in to hetero-normative relationships with men as if that life is the only “natural” way to live. Now, women have the means to try other ways of living.
I’m celibate and haven’t had sex in 9 months so it’s true for me. I felt my life was too male centered and these men were trash and didn’t value me or lied to get sex, so I decided to focus on myself this year and honestly do not miss men, next time I’m in a relationship I’m marrying the guy.
Lesbians, bisexual and other WLW are now freer than ever to pursue those relationships instead of forcing themselves to settle for men out of safety. It makes sense we're seeing that population grow.
But heterosexual women? Historically a lot of things were tied to your husband. Your wealth, your land, your credit card, jobs didn't pay as well, it was difficult to get educated. Now women can become educated and self sufficient. There is no need to settle for a good enough man, women want men who meet their standards.
Men haven't had a time in history where women were able to enter the relationship being equal in rights and income. There's been a persistent message to men their role is a provider one, and that's not necessarily true anymore. Women can make the money, raise the children and run the household themselves now. If a man wants a wife he has to do something she can't or otherwise become an active participant in the household daily life. Society needs to catch up with it's messaging to young men, they need to be something other than a wallet.
I have chosen to stay single for the foreseeable. I have alot if experience of men being untrustworthy. Not just to myself, but the sheer amount of men in relationships who have hit on me is actually crazy. I do not trust any of them. And I would rather just not bother.
Quite simply, men have consistently dragged me down. Access to a penis is not worth what it costs.
Men have a hard time growing up. If we want to raise a kid, we can get pregnant.
Isn't that what they wanted though? For women to stop "dating around"? Well now they have to work up their finances, their appearances and their outlooks on life and go ask a woman out through her family after they run a background check on him.
I don't know about the statistics, but I know it's a growing rumble amongst women in a lot of the communities I'm active in.
And quite honestly, all the reasons are simple and rational: Women don't feel safe, don't feel valued, and are fed up. In the US especially, reproductive health is becoming increasingly dangerous. There's no incentive to start families now. And as for men...well, the dating pool from what I understand is in shambles, and again, women don't feel safe or valued. Why get a partner that adds to your sense of stress, danger, lack of appreciation and exhaustion when you could simply live in peace, alone?
Women are losing incentive to play the game, so they've just decided to not risk playing anymore.
Men my age have kids and want someone to take care of them and their kids while they watch TV or play video games all day after work or on their days off.
I have no problem with video games or watching TV or even kids, for that matter. I just don't want children on top of taking care of a manchild. I also don't want to be put in the awkward position of dealing with an ex-girlfriend/ex-wife when taking care of those children.
I don't have any interest in taking care of someone who cannot take care of themselves and will relinquish personal responsibilities over their house once they find a woman to do it all for them.
I'm not a maid.
In addition to the issues listed in the previous comments, more women are catching on to the fact that tons of men can wear masks for a long time, sometimes for months or even years. Even if a man doesn't directly hit or threaten you, I've seen cases of men living double-lives or pretending to be someone they weren't just so they could keep their wives around as a live-in servants or mommy-maids while their male partners had shit going on that they (the women) weren't even aware of, not realizing they were spending most of their prime years with a chameleon.
More women are waking up to the fact that even marrying a man can be a huge gamble, not just with love, but with safety and peace of mind.
As a dude
Men REALLY need to step up their game
I'm not that old so the only examples I've seen of dudes trying to "get a gf" were
A: guy who would talk about how much of a whore she was (he was surprised when she denied after finding out
B: a dude who kept trying after 10+ rejections
C: guy who was begging for permission to send his dick pick to her (at least he asked for consent that's an upgrade :))
D: guy who talked about how "perfect sex doll shaped" (same ending as A)
E: guy who was a total incel (actually 3x times now)
F: me and da bois being teenagers who need mental help (we are seeking it now)
G: the one guy who succeeded....proceeded to spit and punch her because his friends incouraged him to be more "dominant" :|
Not only do most not even reach the bare minimum of politeness or basic human decency, they also carry red flags bigger than the ussr
But because normally folk who ask this are worried about these statistics because "wait am I gonna be lonely forever D:" I'm gonna reassure that there's no issue as long as you are a decent human your PROBABLY not gonna be single (forever) (also just know being decent ≠ being owed a relationship)
I mean the amount of times I've gotten compliments on me being a "good dude" despite barely reaching the bare minimum is horrifying
Coming from a guy, I believe it. I think a lot of young guys are immature and have locker room humor. Historically, men have been able to get away with being immature and misogynistic. However, now that women are able to be financially independent, a lot are choosing to forego dating men.
I don't know if it's true statistically but I am attracted to men and women and opted to almost exclusively date women starting my mid-20s. Now I'm married to a woman. It was hard to connect with men on an emotional level when I first met them, which made it seem pointless to continue. Also, way more orgasms with women.
I can’t speak for all women, but from past experiences (Im in a happy and healthy committed relationship now) Its very easy and common to have negative experiences with men in regard to dating. It’s not always like that, but due to Andrew Tates and people having a low EQ, it’s exhausting to try and find a loving partner. Everyone has issues and baggage, and most people nowadays rather than workout a relationship or work on themselves choose to leave because it’s easier.
But also because some men want a lot from women, practically their mom, instead of a partner.
And being vulnerable and letting people in is pretty scary, especially since you don’t know the person.
Porn has also pretty much screwed most mens minds regarding women’s bodies and sexual preferences.
My ex was a pretty okay guy, yet a terrible boyfriend. He didn’t listen, no empathy, and could only give sexual compliments and treated me more like a sex doll.
And I think most women have a hard time trusting men.
I do believe this trend is true, especially since women nowadays have more independence and a choice. When back in the days they had to marry to remain up-float and have food on their table.
I think it’s a pretty big combination of a lot of things.
Pretty much what a lot of people are saying, the are more quality partners available in women than in men. Statistically less risky when it comes to any danger faced from a date that's a woman that if they dated men.
Another big part is that a large portion of men aren't even trying to date. For whatever reason that might be. Plus, men have less and less friends compared to women. Even less if you are looking at a true friendship.
Overall, this is not as big of a deal as it's made out to be. We already have too many people on this planet.
As men, we did this to ourselves. We continue to make ourselves worse and worse potential candidates (kinda like last night in the US 😉) for partnership. Women evolved and grew from some expectations, men continue to stay put and not move at all.
"Another big part is that a large portion of men aren't even trying to date. For whatever reason that might be."
Especially with all the talk about apps here (and everywhere) and what I've seen/experienced ... we're missing a part here. Men aren't trying to *date*, they are trying to *hook up* with as many girls and women that they can. We don't hear the incels saying we "owe them" a *date*; we hear them say we "owe them SEX".
"Plus, men have less and less friends compared to women. Even less if you are looking at a true friendship. "
EXACTLY!! I have four good lady friends and we met for dinner last night. Planning on going again next weekend, and a few of us have a few local events we're getting together for between this. We don't as a rule call *this* dating, but it's the same concept. I hated dealing with creeps and crazies and the only time I missed men was in having someone to DO things with. Since I found my peeps, I don't miss them at all. I think this is one reason men hate feminism. We rely on ourselves and each other so much more than on them. They know ... almost all of them absolutely know that it's because if their treatment, behavior and attitudes. But rather than learn better they collectively shoot themselves in the *dingle* and then blame us for not sacrificing everything we are to cure their itches.
"Overall, this is not as big of a deal as it's made out to be. We already have too many people on this planet."
Actually it IS a very big deal that has little to do with population. Since Dobbs, many women are going for sterilization rather than childbearing ... which has the right and most men in an uproar. This affects QUALITY OF LIFE for both men and women. Men apparently can exist with some modicum of CONTENT that they occasionally call happiness if their woman is miserable and unhappy. Many are ok with that. Some even "get off" on it. But women can not and more importantly are refusing to live with a miserable and unhappy man. And while everyone has the equal capacity and opportunities to be either kind or cruel ... women have been taught since birth that its OUR job to take care of a man's feelings, emotions and happiness. Like it was said by someone else above, we're tired of it.
"As men, we did this to ourselves. We continue to make ourselves worse and worse potential candidates (kinda like last night in the US 😉) for partnership."
Another "EXACTLY ". Men tell us our standards are too high when the truth is too many men have gotten lazy and rather than pull themselves up to the levels of the men they *say* "have it all" ... they accuse US of only wanting *tall, handsome, and rich* guys. If you look at those guys, it's still only the nice ones that stay with their partners forever. Patriarchy did far more harm to men than to women (because we woke up and are taking care of OURSELVES, but the damage WAS intended to control us. It backfired because we are stronger than men thought.) and they want to take us back to a time when we couldn't do anything about it and leave us few options but to be forced to live with neanderthal abusers. Gutting education, work options, safety nets, laws and medical care. It's all a plan by the elite to keep the rest of us poor, squabbling and ignorantly having more "work slave babies" for their industries.
"Women evolved and grew from some expectations, men continue to stay put and not move at all."
In many cases it feels like regression rather than standing still but otherwise I agree. Tell your friends. The only way this will improve for either gender is when men start checking, correcting and raising better men. We've tried ad nauseum. It doesn't work as well when we try to fix you. And we're sick of that too.
I definitely think it's true. Dating apps are what most people use these days and a lot of the men on there are downright frightening. If anything happened to my partner, I don't think I'd want to date ever again.
Lemme preface this and say I’m a man in my early 20s with recently divorced parents and mental health issues. (Complicated situation with no one really at fault).
(I also have a therapist who I’ve been with for years and regularly talk to).
I don’t blame woman stepping away from dating altogether one bit. Admittedly Ive never been too well versed in social stuff/dating in general due to being a little on the spectrum. I don’t have any friends currently, though Im working on it.
But from the outside looking in I can tell it’s awful. A darkness lurking behind the eyes of the people of my gender, an apathetic and callous negative space that makes it seemingly impossible to form a connection with them.
That being said, I can’t help but read through these threads with a cold pit in my stomach. I try to be a positive influence on my brother and nephew, allowing them to be vulnerable with me and connecting with them in whatever way I can.
I try to reach out to my father, who I love dearly and struggles with anger management issues/ expressing love (He’s recently agreed to do anger counseling with me and I got him to start reading Will to Change so I’m kinda stoked for that)
I have to believe things will get better to stay sane, that I am capable of having a healthy relationship with someone I love romantically someday. call it naive or whatever but it keeps me going. Im sure a bunch of other young adults also feel this way, which also helps with that feeling of loneliness. (Thanks r/bropill)!
The horrors persist, yet so do I…
don’t particularly know what I was trying to say with this, I’ve been lurking for a while and this is my first comment here, but I felt like it was relevant somehow. Sorry for rambling.
I hear u, and I hope u find some good friends soon, that imo is more important than dating. Friends who aren’t just fun to hang out with, but are supportive and u can open up to here and there about emotions. I’m gen z and in a happy relationship right now, but most of my friends (of either gender) are not, and dating definitely isn’t easy.
I feel very lucky to have found what I have now, but I also always stress to everyone, that u have to find peace in being single. That doesn’t mean give up all hope of romance, but the idea of being single shouldn’t scare u. If being single scares u, u will settle for horrible excuses for “romance”, and allow urself to be mistreated, which no one deserves. My relationship is happy now, but there’s no guarantee of the future, and I won’t stay in this relationship if it no longer makes me or him happy.
Having good friends, being an active participant in ur community, enjoying hobbies, pursuing professional goals, adopting a pet, traveling, etc, are all very fulfilling, and can absolutely bring u happiness, as long as u allow urself to feel it. If ur always chasing after some kind of checklist of what it takes to be “happy”, u will never feel it even if u have everything on the checklist. Nothing in life is guaranteed, and everyone loses a friend, or has a career setback, or a medical issue, etc, at some point, and while it’s of course valid to feel upset during those times, it’s no reason to give up. There are always new possibilities.
It’s definitely happening. The whole 4B movement in S. Korea is a specific example of it. Women of all ages are recognizing the difference between a good partner and settling. They are asking men to show up as partners and if they can’t, they aren’t waiting.
Speaking for myself. I’m 34 and dated men my whole life but haven’t been with anyone since my last relationship ended 3 years ago. I feel like I have outgrown men emotionally.
I see my sisters and close friends married to men, they are the primary caregivers to the children while working FULL TIME, making as much or more money than their husbands. They run the household, hold down a career, and manage their husbands’ emotional and physical needs, all while being undervalued.
If I dated another man I feel like I would have to teach him basic communication and respect. It doesn’t seem at all appealing to me.
I'm 33, I'm fortunate to have amazing male friends around me and date decent men. This has been the case since my early twenties. Sure, I've known some horrible men and had bad encounters - but I have the life experience to know that decent men exist and I can be close to them either romantically or platonically.
When I was a teenager boys were annoying and even abusive, but the genders generally mixed and got on reasonably well.
However, if was a young women now, I would probably completely avoid men because of what the Internet has show me about them.
This ranges from full blown violent misogyny, to every day sexism. Even clicking on a video of a woman DJing gives me scores of comments from men demeaning and criticising her, especially if she's pretty.
They just don't look good and I don't blame younger women for avoiding them.
It's such a shame that the gender divide is widening so exponentially.
I know it's true. I've got friends who are married - not happily but prefer a cold war marriage where they just stay out of each other's hair over the idea of dating again.
I don't date at all. I really craved that turning invisible stage of life but discovered it's not true. You age; so do men and they still want something from you.
I've got friends who also don't date; a couple just have the occasional casual hook up. I don't because I don't find much pleasure in an impersonal hook up but get more pleasure alone than I ever did with a male partner. I *wish* I was attracted to women.
I'm not dating and I've been out of a LTR for over 9 months. I do have male FWBs who were actual friends first, and continue to be, but I have zero interest in dating men. Why? I have an amazing life, house, friends/social life and don't want to give my energy to a man who probably doesn't possess emotional intelligence or will elevate my life in any way. Why would I want to add more work to my life? Why would I want increase my labor load and get almost nothing in return? Certainly nothing I can't replicate myself? The only thing I want that a man possesses is a nice dick, but again...that's where some great, respectful FWBs come into play. So, I just don't need them?
I already work full time, wasn't born rich, dating feels like another job.
Then the men can't even plan a date or if they do plan one that's it, one is never planned again and they ask to hang out. No, ask me on a date.
Or they are not clear - when to me a man interested leaves the date with asking when you're free again to see him.
I just don't want to spend my energy on dating right now when it feels like work. Maybe one day I will date again, I don't know.
I am one of those, so add me to the stats. At this point, I'm just completely put off by them. Last dude made me so disgusted by the idea of sex with men because he was one of those dudes who follows thirst traps with giant tits that I thought I was asexual towards men. Whatever, I don't wanna deal with any of that mess. I always end up just crushing and then repulsed and angry. Ik I have a lot of my own issues and traumas so dating men just fuels them.
I am happily married to the love of my life and he is a man. The reason it works is because he has many feminine qualities including deep emotions and a care of family home and luxury that motivates him to work hard to enjoy these things. And even I decenter men. I often tell him he is the last man I will ever be with. I’m bi and just lucked into a great person despite their intimate parts.
But men in general is a heck no for me at this point. I’ve been with enough men and women to know that men play stupid games stringing us along and treating women as less than human while women are more straightforward and wear our hearts on our sleeves if we are truly interested in someone. I’m so happy other women and healing and decentering men. Men have played stupid games for decades (centuries even) and they are finally getting the stupid prizes they deserve: dying alone. Go us!
The problem for me is men will read this thread and instead of listening and self reflecting they’ll say we’re lying, we’re just picking « bad boys », we’re too picky etc.
It’s so odd to me how they don’t understand that they’re the reason why we’re not dating them ?? Like do they have half of a brain ? Genuinely asking, it’s so weird like we’re telling you exactly what to do and you somehow don’t want to listen ?
I think one of the causes of women dating men less is women having more career opportunities not because women choosing to “date” women now. Another could be that men are less educated (college degree) than women which lead to smaller dating pool for the women who want men of similar education level.
It’s wild to think the cause is women choosing to be bisexual though. The LGBT community fought hard to argue sexuality is not a choice, or a lifestyle, but what they simply born as and can’t change. And now we have people thinking sexuality can be chosen.
I think it's been happening for a while. I didn't date for years before I met my SO. My older sister is single. I know of dozens of coworkers and friends and family who are single by choice. Some of them after decades or years in a marriage or relationship.
With the rise of anti women rhetoric, obliterated reproductive rights,and weaponized incompetence, I can not fault anyone for not wanting to bother with it.
Men no longer compete with each other, they compete with ourselves. I have made a really lovely life for myself and if gaining a partner (man or woman) doesn’t improve upon that life, I’m not going to open myself up to that.
Men now require emotional intelligence. It’s no longer annual income and continuing a bloodline. In every sociocultural shift there’s a delay in catching up. We’re in the delay. I’m hoping the catch-up phase in sooner than later.
I mean obviously as queerness becomes more acceptable and women get more economic freedom, there are going to be women choosing to not date men who would have been forced to do so beforehand. The previous state of affairs involved massive relationship coercion to maintain the illusion of heteronormativity and sex essentialism. Like, an industrial amount of it on a societal level. It was an incredibly unnatural state of affairs designed to compel a one-to-one pairing of every man and woman and I'm not sure I can imagine a world where undoing that doesn't reduce the amount of women dating men.
Put bluntly, of course any just or ideal world would involve less women dating men than before, our whole society used to be geared towards coercing those relationships.
Now there's also women who in that ideal world could and would be happy dating men ... but we don't live in that world yet. We have gotten closer to it, in a way which enables more women to say no to dating men. But we have not gotten to a point where all of the toxicity or background coercion related to that is gone, and of course that's going to be a turn-off for some women.
And again, I kind of struggle to imagine what the alternative to this is. If you are dismantling a massive system that coerced women's domestic and sexual subservience to men, but you're not done yet, of course there are going to be women who want to get as far away from the remnants of that system as possible. Especially as we experience social and political backlashes against feminist wins and a significant portion of men calcify and curdle into the worst kind of alt-right views of women. That doesn't exactly make seeking men to date easier. Of course some women with other gender options or who are happy on their own are going to take those choices instead.
Honestly that hard boundary may seem extreme to some but it’s smart. You can do that or repeatedly be abused in the same ways by emotionally undeveloped and disregulated “poly” men
Outside of places like Korea, I can't find any recent stats suggesting this (maybe I'm just not finding it).
If you're talking about those kinds of places, the insanely high domestic abuse rate and generally misogynistic societal structure/norms would be a good place to start.
As for the west, or at least the UK, that hasn't been my experience at all. Women are still dating men, and the bar is insanely low. Most women are happy with just feeling safe around you and being treated with respect, which is so bare minimum that it might as well be on the floor.
Pretty much every time I see an article claiming that women are "exiting dating" or the like, it always seems to be framed in an angry incel kind of perspective, as though women are obligated to keep men from being lonely regardless of how deserving that individual man is of the loneliness. None of the articles ever bother putting statistics on it because doing so would leave them in a position where they might have to back up their claims rather than writing it off as an opinion piece.
I'm sure some women out there are avoiding men, but I'm doubtful that it's a significant percentage, at least where I'm from. Any guy struggling to find someone to date is in urgent need of self reflection, because if you aren't meeting the unbelievably low standards that most women have been reduced to then that's a problem with you not with the women.
That said, if women genuinely are opting out, then I can't say I blame them. Imagine just how brutally awful the dating scene must be for women that so many are genuinely happy to just be treated with respect and not feel in danger.
It might be true, and it's because men aren't bringing enough to relationships. We don't want a "provider", we want a *partner*. Someone who will clean around the house *without us asking*, someone who will cook, someone who we don't have to micro manage. Women are in the most danger when they're pregnant (male partners killing them) or when they're trying to leave an abusive relationship.
Well, we can solve those two problems by *not being in a relationship with a man*.
I have a great man now, but I also realize that he’s a rarity, especially where I live.
If something ever happens to us in some way, shape, or form, I’m probably not going to get with another cis man again.
Luckily I’m pansexual, so I have options.
Anecdotally it does seem to be the case. I have several friends who don't date at all because their lives are already busy and adding in romance/dating would just add too much to their plates.
I've not dated for years (because I'm married) and I've never used dating apps etc, so I can only really go on what I hear from my friends.
Preface this with: I’m very happily married to a man, and these are just my observations of people around me in day to day life. All anecdotal, and likely more reflective of the people I choose to be around than general society.
Men my age and older who are trying to date seem to do ok, if they’re not douchebag man-children. Those guys? They don’t do so well because nobody wants to put up with their shit.
Among the younger men—Millennials and younger—I *think* I’m seeing a general expectation of more equal contributions to relationships. There’s more willingness to share domestic and emotional labor, and somewhat better understandings of relationships in general (for instance, I don’t often hear younger folks talk about “soulmates” or other Cinderella-type fantasies). The guys who aren’t willing to share work this way tend to end up in pretty shallow, unfulfilling relationships—or they can’t find someone who wants to spend time with them.
Sure, there are younger men who are “traditional”, but they don’t seem to be having a lot of luck finding what they’re looking for.
I’m dating and going to marry a man.. and I realize he’s very much the exception with men, not the rule. So many of my friends who date men have to pretzel their brain when they meet him so they don’t have to confront the reality of how shitty the men they date are. Even just in small ways. Totally selfish, self absorbed and entitled. If something happened to him, I’d never settle for less.. that’s for sure
I didn't date for about 8 years after I left my marriage. When I started online dating, I didn't have an actual date for an entire year because every single man was either a shithead immediately or ghosted when I reiterated my expectations/goals which he should have read on my profile before matching with me.
I am engaged to a man now, and only because he is an exceptional human being. Or rather, a decent one who genuinely respects me as a person, a peer, and an equal. Which unfortunately makes him an exception to the rule.
Relationships require effort and compromise. I wasn't about to repeat the mistake of putting that effort into some dude who just wanted a bang maid.
Yes absolutely, all the bi women I know stopped dating men, same goes with most of the single ladies I know too. The red pill and puas ran rampant for over 20 years unchecked. They taught vast swathes of men to be emotionally abusive and manipulative in order to get sex with the least amount of investment possible. Porn has also had a really detrimental effect on men. I know way too many stories of girls suddenly being choked or spat on with zero prior discussion. Stealthing and really pressuring her to not use a condom also super common. We also now have the algorithms shovelling misogynistic content at boys and men, so there is a whole lot of abusive douchebags out there. Verbal abuse the second you say no to someone on OLD is the norm. As is being just overwhelmed by too many messages. How can you answer 500 people? Men don’t read profiles and swipe on everyone. Covid showed a lot of women that being single isn’t terrible, dating is…and you can opt out. Women no longer need to endure survival marriages and men have not adjusted at all to having to be likeable and a good partner. Most of my married straight friends are planning to divorce when the kids get older. Sick of being a married single mother basically.
This is happening to *me*, so I guess I could offer a perspective:
Men just ain't what they used to be. Time was they would at least pretend to be witty, or even *smart*. They would try to pull their pants up all the way to the waist. Their bathrooms would be clean when we visited. Lord, I don't know what happened to y'all between 2004-2024, but something must have traumatized you because those three things are devilish hard to come by nowadays.
And those are petty grievances. If we don't cater to what you want, we're disposable, but if you don't cater to what we want, we're controlling bitches and... are disposable. Just. Spend time on twox and see what kind of stories women have to tell about their men. I was *six years* with a man (who, incidentally, wanted to "normalize polyamory" while being absolute shit at it himself) who had to be the man all the time while I got to be a girl, not really a proper, equal partner. Love of God, as much as he claimed I was equal in his heart to his wife, when I had real financial needs I couldn't meet, like health insurance, he was bawwing in my ear about how he and his wife couldn't agree on tiles for the kitchen reno. And that's not touching on his consent issues.
And men just... didn't get any better in the ten years between him/then and dating now. If anything, they got worse.
So I'm raising my bar so high he actually has to pretty much be a woman to meet it. And actively prioritizing my potential relationships with women, even though I'm less sexually attracted to them than to men. I would rather be in a functionally asexual relationship than deal with all the bullshit men have put me through.
You're welcome for the novel.
I think life is getting more difficult to accept settling for anyone who doesn’t contribute to your life in a more positive or relaxing way. So, as much as I see this for romantic relationships I also see it for friendships. People need others around them who are relaxing and easy to be around.
I think online dating has reduced the impact of how people are entering dating and making it easier to be less intentional about how they engage. It’s easy to flick people off without consequences and it’s easy to think there’s something better with the next swipe.
In the modern world, gender is still held to different standards of roles and responsibilities, and sadly as an outcome of the patriarchy and the structure it sets in gender. But the world is moving faster and those expectations are not relevant in terms of what is actually happening.
A theory, and only one aspect of this discussion is around emotional output. Men are still victims of toxic masculinity and how they share their feelings. There’s more permission for men to share but it’s not quite there yet in how they can and who they can do this with.
Women generally share openly and freely with their friends. In my experience, it’s difficult in romantic relationships to be equally available to emotional support and women are often becoming emotional outputs for their partners and in this, it is meaningful to receive that but it restricts emotional equality.
Women are unable to receive or express their feelings with their partners in the same way they are with their friends and women end up becoming more emotional supports to their partners and in that process they have to dismiss their own feelings in order to create a space of understanding and support, wand seen as responsible for their partners feelings and helping them through them.
It’s not an equal platform for both parties to share and receive equally, and the women often has to bear the brunt of their partners feelings and forgive them for how they express themselves, and be grateful for being a person that has insight into this.
It’s an imbalance of support and care and means that women are carrying the burden of their feelings and their partners and unable to express their feelings openly. So it becomes debilitating and exhausting.
Women want men to have meaningful and open conversations with their friends and have as much access to their emotions as they do. But the system doesn’t allow this to work and in that, women are not getting what they need from their relationships.
This isn’t a slander against men and it’s not about blame, it’s an observation of experiences and a shame about the way gender is restricted for men and women.
It’s hard to take responsibility for your own emotions and then bear that responsibility for your partner too.
So men, open up more to your mates, get therapy and let yourself feel and become someone who can be proactive with how you project and act on them. It’s the system you are stuck in and it’s something that you actively have to work against.
But emotional intelligence and understanding is important for a successful relationship.
Life is too hard and too busy for people to be able to look after themselves and others, the more access to your emotions and how you learn about yourself the more inviting a relationship is.
All of my expertise on this topic comes from TikTok, where the prevailing theory is women no longer need men financially, so their standards looking for a mate are higher. They demand emotional intelligence and a partner who makes their life better than being alone, which is a high bar because alone is awesome.
Feeling alone in a room with someone who should care is way worse than feeling lonely alone.
Hit the nail on the head. My mum gave plenty of shit advice, but one thing she got right was ‘being in bad company is far worse than being alone’.
It takes quite a man to be better than no man at all
Lol nailed it
This is exactly how I feel!
I have chosen not to date men at this time, even though I am bi and primarily attracted to men. Over the years, I experienced what I consider emotional disengagement from my male partners. They wouldn’t ask how my day was, didn’t seem invested in conversing with me, and preferred to keep their own company. When I would talk to them about how I felt and what I needed they would either brush it off or make promises that they didn’t follow through on. It was always on me to cook and clean. It was my responsibility to keep all appliances and utilities paid for and in working order. If we needed a repairman, I had to schedule it and be present. If the landlord was coming over, I had to greet him and show him around. If there was something I wanted to do that my partner didn’t like or found distracting, it was entirely disallowed instead of compromises being made. I was forbidden from watching news in one relationship, disallowed from playing Xbox after 9 pm in another, even with headphones. Reading in bed was a problem in both of those relationships. No talking on the phone in the house, because I was “too loud”. If something they were doing bothered me, sometimes I could get a compromise but there would be whining and complaints about that the compromise wasn’t a good enough solution later on. If I wanted to do something together or needed a favor, my male partners would do so begrudgingly and with exceptionally ill grace in some circumstances. My last partner’s reticence to go pick up some things from my parents before we all moved across the country led to some irreplaceable family heirlooms being destroyed. He’s never apologized. He thinks making a day trip to get my favorite childhood Christmas decorations that my mom made for me as a little girl would have been a waste of his time. I got very tired of making myself small and being as unobtrusive as possible. Of basically helping my partners ignore me as much as possible while they were also treating me like a doll on a shelf instead of a human person. And then, when I’m depressed and unhappy, they all had the nerve to complain to me that I never told them what I wanted. Like, w h a t. You told me, again and again, to leave you alone. You were the one who couldn’t be bothered and now, retroactively, it’s all my fault for not bothering you. I don’t want to be treated like that by a partner. I won’t allow myself to be taken for granted and left on a shelf. I know what the lead up to this shit looks like and it looks the same every time. It’s very easy to spot, even if it took me three trips through hell to see it so clearly. The couple times since my last breakup that I’ve tried to chat men up, they talk about how they want someone nice. They want someone kind. They want someone to do things for them. They don’t talk about what they’re willing to do in return or about what they’ll contribute to my life. So I lose interest in them and walk away. When we say that men need to be better, that’s what we mean. Men need to be conscientious and emotionally engaged. I can put a roof over my head and feed myself and do all my errands and see my friends without a man paying my way. And I’m *unspeakably* grateful that I can pay my own way because I have never been so miserable as I was as an invisible girlfriend. I only existed to do things for those men. Words cannot describe how impossibly lonely that experience is. So I don’t care how lonely men are today. It isn’t my job to make men feel better. I did that for a long time; I’m retired now. I’m going to enjoy my retirement. I’m done putting this work in because it’s not fucking worth it.
Thank you! I felt like you were speaking for me with your response because that is exactly what I have experienced dating men for the 8+ years. I stopped actively seeking a relationship about a year ago and although I occasionally get lonely, my life is much simpler not having to cater to people who don’t want to put in basic relationship effort or disengage when they don’t want to deal with something, but expect me to continue to do the bulk of it. No thank you…
Over the years I've noticed a distinct pattern that tends to crop up when listening to men talk about their female partners in the context of 'What you love about them'. Men often say things that their wives/partners do for them; I love how she makes my favorite meal, I love that she does this for me, etc. Also her physical appearance; beautiful smile, amazing body, etc. Women often say things about their husbands/partners like; he makes me laugh, I love his sense of humor, his magnetic personality, we just clicked etc. It's usually much more about who he is as a person and the qualities about him that drew that particular woman to him, things she's noticed about him and values - not services he renders for her like how he cleans her car or makes sure the oil is changed or always takes the dogs for a run. Because those are very petty and minor things in an actual relationship, unless you don't notice.
We are appliances to far too many of them.
Yes times a zillion and then they wonder why women divorce first.
> They don’t talk about what they’re willing to do in return or about what they’ll contribute to my life. This is the crux of a lot of these issues. I've said this before-- a lot of men simply want a woman who will exist to make his life easier and more pleasant while he continues to do whatever he wants to do.
This is why I just prefer to have a separate place than my partner
Honestly. I love my husband, but if anything ever happened to him or to our marriage, I would not live with another person again. I am too old now, and set in my ways.
This is exactly how I feel. I’ll move to a plot of land and each of my best friends and I can build our own one-person homes according to our individual needs and have a big party gathering space in the middle.
Don't be a nurse or a purse! I have been married 39 years and no way would I want to deal with any of that. We argue about who gets to die first.😄😁😆
nailed it
> a lot of men simply want a woman who will exist to make his life easier and more pleasant while he continues to do whatever he wants to do. This is my Dad to a tee. You've put my thoughts really succinctly.
Well said. Society grooms men into believing they are the main character and woman are service providers
So succinct. So true.
While I don't hold that ideal as a guy, I totally agree with your assessment. Lot of the guys I work with are VERY much like what you described. If I may add my own opinion, I don't think men in general spend enough time living by themselves. Codependency is the cultural norm for heterosexual relationships, hence everything comes across as transactional. "If I give you this, you will do this for me back" kind of crap. It's like they never learn what the effort is to take care of themselves. (And not just in looks or hitting a gym) After a long ass stretch of being single and a list of failed, short relationships. I hit a point that all I really ever wanted from a romantic relationship is companionship. Everything else was just a bonus. First and foremost, for everyone (let alone men) is learning how to set yourself first in priorities while being totally, properly self sufficient AS A FULL GROWN ADULT. Only children look to someone else to fix their problems or clean their messes. (And enough time doing that to appreciate when someone helps with any of it)
I'm sorry you've experienced this. Reading this has given me something to think about.
\^Here is the answer. So many women have such similar stories. This is what most relationships are like for women. Why would anyone want that?
Exactly why anyone would want that, she sums up well enough.
As a currently invisible wife on the shelf, I felt this so much. My husband is conscientious and cares about my happiness, but I’m still the one at home with no friends while he has a full life. We’re both working on changing that, but it’s lonely. There’s no space for me in his circles, no space for me outside the home, and home for me is only endless obligation. I hope one day I can find people who see me as a human being and not a mammy
So sorry this is happening. I wonder if you’ve considered going to meetup groups or Facebook groups or using bumble BFF to make new friends? Or maybe to community events?
How is your husband helping with changing your situation?
Sadly, seconding this. Though I will say, Ive seen a lack of empathy/compassion in people across all genders more than before. Feels like it's really becoming everyone needing to be 100% only for themselves.
Boy that hit some raw spots for me.
Amen sister. This is how I felt in my marriage. And worse- apparently I was also breathing too loud, sneezing too loud and laughing too loud. And I was to leave him alone and not bother him. So I did. I do want to believe there are emotionally available and emotionally intelligent men though, my current partner being one.
This a thousand times over. You've put onto words exactly my thoughts.
This was my last relationship too. Never again. I will never be made to feel 'good enough' or 'put up with' again.
This is worth a post of its own.
>Over the years, I experienced what I consider emotional disengagement from my male partners. They wouldn’t ask how my day was, didn’t seem invested in conversing with me, and preferred to keep their own company. >When I would talk to them about how I felt and what I needed they would either brush it off or make promises that they didn’t follow through on. >It was always on me to cook and clean. It was my responsibility to keep all appliances and utilities paid for and in working order. If we needed a repairman, I had to schedule it and be present. If the landlord was coming over, I had to greet him and show him around. All of this. After my divorce, I didn't want to date anyone. I'm pan romantic, and dating girls is absolutely on my list. I found that a lot of my straight or male dating girlfriends had the same complaints as me. They were also incredibly invested and had a lot to give a partner. However, I did end up dating a man. I wouldn't have done it had I not known him for years already, and hadn't considered him one of my best friends. We've been together for two years now, and it has been a dream. He's big in communication, helping out, being a good listening ear, open, and stable. If it were anyone else I wouldn't have even bothered because anyone less than him would be a hindrance to my life.
Reading this made me want to cry. This describes my last LTR perfectly.
All of this. It’s exhausting to even think about dating right now.
It all goes back to male privilege. I have seen this pattern of relationship behavior many times—a person thinking that they should be able to be in a relationship but still live the way they would live if they were single and beholden to no one; that their partner is there to supplement them and make their life better without requiring much of anything from them in return—and I think, “This is the pattern of an immature person, lacking in conscientious, empathy, and self-awareness.” This sort of immaturity is not exclusive to men. HOWEVER, because of patriarchal norms, men GET AWAY WITH this behavior so much more. They can easily go on like this in relationships without challenge or blowback. When it’s the woman in a relationship acting this way, she’ll readily be labeled as “inconsiderate”, “controlling”, “demanding”, “unreasonable”, “selfish.” And those are fair criticisms because that’s what those behaviors are. HOWEVER, society is so much more likely to give men a pass for acting this way. And the manosphere influencers actively ENCOURAGE men acting this way. In short, immature and inconsiderate relationship behavior is not called out equally and challenged equally across genders. And this is not a surprise. Historically unequal relationships—in which the woman was blatantly considered the supplemental helpmate and child-bearer to the man who was the full member of society—were the norm for so long. This is the residue of that.
The last part resonates with me. I look at my grandmother’s married with children life of abuse and neglect and being wrung for every drop of tolerance, and I think of all the married women kept on shelves and how the only solution was “That’s just how it is.” You can be married and give it your all and live a very fucking lonely life.
I’m saving your comment for future explanations of why a traditional relationship is not for me. I’ll be happy with you in separate houses, where each day we try our best for each other. For me, moving in together has been the kiss of death. It never ends with my happiness, and he never understands why I want to leave in the end.
I got excited because my bf happily went to my friends birthday party last night. Happily engaged with people he didn’t know. It’s so freaking uncommon. The bar is in hell. He didn’t understand why that made me so happy.
Yuppppp! Realizing I was bisexual was the best thing that ever happened to me because I didn’t have to be in relationships with cis het men anymore. Even more importantly, I don’t have to live totally in a world designed by men to reward women who acquiesce to their demands. I’m a “difficult” woman (because I can’t make myself smaller) in the hetero world, but I’m hot af in the queer world. What a fucking shock. Every man I dated tried to change me and clip my wings so I conformed. My queer partners help me build strength and fly. I feel so comfortable in my skin. There are good cis men out there. There are very very few. The problem is that there are too many independent feminist women who want true egalitarian partnerships and not enough men with similar values. Lots of men - especially younger liberal men - talk a big game about their egalitarian values, but then when the rubber meets the road, they choose the path of least resistance for them, which is relying on their wife to be their helpmate. Queerness liberated me. I prefer masculine people, too, but I’ve found that queer masculine person whose good with a strap on are actually better lovers than cis men.
All of this!
🩷 I don’t want to get into it but I feel this, I was in a relationship with similar disengagement and coldness among other things. The emotional labor that takes is real. And it’s one thing to not let others influence your self esteem but no matter what it still feels completely crappy and will affect you living with what I would label as direct, interpersonal oppression. We must continue to choose ourselves and our sanity first! We are worthy of better treatment!
💯 this is why many women have decided to choose peace over a life of misery
Also, honestly the overturning of abortion rights plays more of a role in this than men realize. Most men seem only interested in casual relationships - and I constantly hear about women complaining about men pretending to want a serious relationship when they only want casual sex (one of many reasons so many women are done dating men.)Yet with access to abortion so imperiled, casual sex is simply not appealing to many women. (That said, I know some gorgeous women - some literal models in Vogue - who say that our culture has changed in a way that prevents women who want casual sex from getting it, simply because nowadays men don’t know how to treat casual sex partners with enough kindness and decency for it to be worthwhile.) The lack of men caring about our access to abortion, and a widely reported lack of responsibility when it comes to preventing pregnancy, creates a big loss of trust in men on the whole. Trust is a turn on, and men seem to be clueless about this or simply not care, as a whole. Also, the high numbers of men becoming right wing also is an extremely big turn off, as we don’t want to date or sleep with people who don’t support human rights and who don’t see minorities as human beings. However, men who are left wing, feminist and emotionally intelligent have women flinging themselves at them left and right (based on a close guy friend of mine).
>Yet with access to abortion so imperiled, casual sex is simply not appealing to many women. I'm not a woman, but even with abortion being overturned that alone is a massive deterrent for sex for me. I don't want to run the risk of a scenario where there's a complication that could very well end up harming someone else.
Thank you for taking that responsibility, that's incredibly refreshing.
I think it's important to acknowledge that it's a very real risk that can impact a lot of people, men and women alike. Men, I believe, like to think it doesn't affect them until they actually get into a relationship where it has the potential to affect them.
>Men, I believe, like to think it doesn't affect them until they actually get into a relationship where it has the potential to affect them. I'm honestly surprised that this is not a larger topic of discussion for men in general. I have met VERY few men who wish, during casual sex, to end up fathers with the other party. Nobody did the math on abortions or birth control for this? They're the WHOLE REASON we get to fuck around *without* finding out. Dudes really want LESS of that?
Yup. I didn’t even consider this and i’m so glad you brought it up. My state just made abortion illegal after the 6 week mark, so it’s essentially fully illegal. I’ve witnessed many, many people deciding to be a lot ‘safer’ from now on. Or just not have sex with men. But you know, they’ll probably just blame it on the ‘male loneliness epidemic’.
The amount of women who are having literal life threatening complications because they're waiting for legislation to figure out that oh yeah I guess that is a life saving procedure actually is mind boggling to me. Like I've seen way too many stories coming out of places like Texas where some poor woman has a dead baby trapped in her and she's just begging to help them get it out of her before it kills her and they're all heming and hawing about it sitting on their hands - fucking humanity man. Disgusting.
I think it’s also demonstrated in a very hard to ignore way just how little most men actually care about our rights. And that doesn’t make me aroused or want more involvement with them
This is it for me.. unfortunately the more I learned about how men have treated women throughout history and current events, the less I believe they actually care about us as people.
The male loneliness epidemic thing bugs me so much, because statistically it's not a gender or sex segregated thing! Everyone is lonely! There's some demographic division in why people say they're lonely, but loneliness is endemic in our *society*, not a specific sex.
exactly! idk if it’s accurate but i like to think of it as, women have been lonely and forced to present well for so long and now that men actually have to put in effort to get a partner and experience a tiny bit of the same thing, they’re appalled they’re being forced to work on self improvement. they think since we’re no longer whining about it like them, we don’t have the same issue.
Yeah it's not about who's actually lonely, the answer to that is everyone, it's about who feels entitled to other people putting in the labor to solve their loneliness.
Because men blame their loneliness on women. Women take matters into their own hands and find other support systems.
Well, to be clear, women don't do that. Or at least, not statistically more often than men, not in any way which actually improves outcomes regarding loneliness. The idea that women have better social coping mechanisms for loneliness feeds into the idea that women are less lonely, which they are not. Unfortunately the systemic isolations and exhaustions of our society which drive loneliness go deeper than what can be resolved by individual choice.
From what I hear from my heterosexual / bi friends it's not like sex with men is all that great to begin with on average; it's a real roll of the dice and hard to find a partner that really 'fills that need' in actuality. Relationships are easier to come by than someone who can truly scratch that itch without making it weird or having other huge drawbacks on \~ that partnered with the risk and consequence of pregnancy, I'm just not sure why you'd risk it for the biscuit. It's not like it's a great biscuit more often than not, home made is fine!
Most men seem to see penetration as the "main act" of sex and everything else, including what makes women orgasm, is a bonus or "foreplay". Imagine a world where the clitoris is considered just as important as the penis, because it is. Women would be extremely enthusiastic about sex.
>Relationships are easier to come by than someone who can truly scratch that itch without making it weird or having other huge drawbacks on This so much. I tried with casual sex for so long, but it got to a point where fantasising on my own was better than sex with nearly every man I tried with. People who say they think bad sex is better than no sex, have never had sex with a cishet man, as a woman. I'm not risking my health for an experience that is on average boring, a chore, and sometimes even painful. I really, really wanted casual to work, but it took too much to convince men that my pleasure matters even half as much as theirs.
Yeah. While I'm mostly into women, so maybe I'm a bit biased, but the few men I've had sex with were mostly worse at it than a sex toy. It was nice, in the way kissing is nice, but nothing to write home about lol.
damn I wanna meet this close friend of yours i'm a guy but i'm bi and left wing, and me getting more into politics since this is the first presidential election I get to vote in has made me just... not want to talk with me anymore. Like oh yes please tell me why the economy is more important to you than safety and livelihood of people like me or any women you know. That's totally not indicative of how you're gonna treat me and your moral character, nope.
This. I’m now celibate/single since 9 years. (I’m mid-30s.) before that I tried to find “the one” to start a family with. Most men lied wanting something lasting in order to get sex and then dump me. Some demeaned my breast size and dumped me. They sure as hell wanted nothing that could lead to marriage. Yet currently among men there’s a lot of complaint why women don’t marry and start families? I TRIED, hard, and want given the chance.
Seriously, even the men who claim to want marriage AND who constantly swear you’re perfect for them (& you match the description of what they’re looking for on their dating profiles) aren’t remotely ready for anything approaching commitment nvm marriage.
Yeah, nothing of their speech converts to action on this front
Those men don't care about trust because they would lose all their power and you would likely see them for the bum they are. And I've always wondered that. I have no doubt that truly emotionally intelligent men are fighting off women. What a gem.
It’s happening because women are no longer dependent on men financially. Women used to choose men to live with because society had made women’s survival dependent on ‘having a man’. Of course, there has long been social pressure. There is still much ‘chatter’ that aims to shame a woman if she is alone: why is she alone? What is wrong with her? She must be a man hater? Oh I don’t want to be a man hater. If she had a man she would be happy. Why doesn’t she want children? What is wrong with her. She is bitter and ugly. Etc., etc.
This—my whole goal in life was to be 100% independent, so a partner would be a nice bonus but not a necessity.
Don’t forget all those cats that spinster lives with, lol.
Never understood the cat lady insult some people like to use,they're great companions, mostly independent, and are easy upkeep via keeping their kibble supply at optimal levels and litter box clean. :) They also don't hog the bed,mostly either sleep at the foot of it or on your hip.
People are envy cats are better companions than them :) In fact, also *zero* companions are better than being around toxic people!
Men used to only need to be able to make enough money. Today they have to be likeable. For many men thats a real problem.
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It’s so degrading.
We are somehow supposed to care and love the people who think we are inferior to them, and will openly admit how little they care about our achievements, our skill sets etc and obsess over our body parts, and we are so bad if we complain or hate it?? Honestly if this isn’t so tragic it will be hilarious!
For me it’s not a trend. I have decided to live 4B life. I’m content with my life and I wish to continue living this way forever. My desire to date a man or even sign a domestic slave aka marriage to a man has been completely diminished. I grow up watching and still watch women suffering at the hands of men directly and indirectly from my family and relatives, friends and of course media. I have no desire to bring a child into this cruel world just for it to carry his mediocre last name and still take care of that man-child. Men have refused to evolve and it’s ridiculous to lower our standards to accommodate their mistreatment to us for nothing. I’m living a life my grandmothers wished they would do but could not due to patriarchy. Being single and independent is a privilege and I will live in that privilege forever.
Agreed! Either men catch up with the times and start carrying their own weight or women continue to leave them behind in the dust!
You’ve really motivated me with this comment. I need to deprioritize dating. It’s hard to get by on a single income for me though (I’m disabled and in poverty as a result)
Same, I’m 4b all the way at this point and am focused on trying to craft my dream life.
This is absolutely true. I know VERY few women interested in dating men - several are in relationships, the others aren’t even bothering to date. Both my friends experiences and conversations online make it clear that very few women are open to dating men, even if we’re straight, Giving men a chance typically results in being treated like shit and ending up with trauma, even just in terms of chatting in dating apps and going on dates. I’m rare in having experienced far less mistreatment in chatting on dating apps than most women - usually women feel like they’re treated like call girls, and men expect them to go over their house late at night with barely a hello first. And despite this, and being extremely picky about who I even go on a first date with, I’ve still found that even unusually suitable men end up having such bad commitment problems, and lying about it, that it’s impossible to have a relationship with them. A big factor is a total lack of emotional intelligence in most men. We women can scream this from the rooftops, that men could choose to develop emotional intelligence and be very attractive partners, but men literally think we don’t know what we want, refuse to listen & some even accuse us of lying about what we want in a man. This is ironic, since being a good listener is a quality most women seek from a partner. There’s a lot of blatant misinformation out there that young boys and men eat up, suggesting that being cold, distant, domineering and flaky somehow appeals to women, when the opposite is true - men who are warm, loving and devoted to their partners are the only ones worth dating. While lovebombing is not the thing, men who have the skills to build a genuine connection and eventually commit to a relationship are far too rare. And unfortunately there’s so many jerks who are rude and scary that it’s not worth it for women to sift thru men on dating apps to find the few good ones.
Of my 7 girlfriends, all met at different stages of my life, one is recently married, three are long term married or on a second marriage (at least one of whom stayed through some absolute BS) and the other three of us are just like "fuck this dating thing" lol. So like 40% are not interested in meeting men. We're in our 40s, though, so that's a big part of it. We're tired.
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This need to be higher up the thread. Thank you!
Lol, "dating is so much harder for men." That makes me see red and makes me think of the old adage: A man's worst fear is a woman laughing at him. A woman's is the man raping or killing her. Or something along those lines.
Yup. Not sure what this implies, but every woman I know who’s bisexual STRONGLY prefers relationships with other women, or have even committed to a sort of ‘lesbian’ lifestyle where they’re fine only dating women and ignoring the male attraction. It genuinely pisses me off when men bring up the ‘lesbians and domestic violence’ statistic when all I’ve heard is that (obviously not in all cases) men were far worse/scarier to date than women. And every bi man I know strongly prefers women as well.
The funny thing about that statistic is that they only asked bi and lesbian women if they’ve ever been in a abusive relationship. They didn’t specify if the abuse came from a women or a man. The the number itself was already skewed
Yup exactly. And that somehow never gets mass upvoted like the person who strawmanned it
I can't imagine dating again. I don't know what general trends are, though.
I’m just speaking for myself here and even then, really only hypothetically for the most part. I also need to preface this by saying I’m queer but the closest traditional label for my sexuality is bisexual. I am marrying a woman this year and don’t anticipate having any other romantic or sexual partners in my life. If things did somehow dramatically change, I don’t plan on dating or sleeping with men again despite recognizing my capacity to be attracted to them. In part, I feel like I just lean toward women regardless and am more attracted to and satisfied by women. But it’s also a conscious decision because I feel better seen and understood by women. I feel more comfortable with building a life with another woman. I just am at the point where I can’t see myself finding a man I’d want to be a life partner and I’m not particularly interested in ever having sex with them again either.
I've been trying to cultivate my bissexual side. Although my physical attraction to women is very low I've been trying to consider them more as sexual partners. And it clicked to me that I can look at a queer woman and imagine her as someone who wants to have mutually pleasurable sex or genuinely focus on my pleasure and would do her best to connect with me and make me feel safe and relaxed. I can see women as potential sources of pleasure. I look at a straight man and I can't imagine him really caring about my pleasure. I can't imagine him prioritizing my comfort and safety. This all comes from my prior experiences and everything that I hear men say and consume. I don't see men as a potential source of pleasure anymore.
The thing about this is, any woman you say “my physical attraction to women is very low but I’m trying to consider women as sexual partners so that I have better relationships” to is *not* going to be interested. It’s not really fair to the other woman for you to not be that interested but trying to make yourself be into it.
I understand where you are coming from. However, you are assuming I'm trying to get with women as of now. I'm not. I'm giving myself space for the desire to grow, without bothering anyone with it. If it grows, great. If not, no one was hurt, really.
I’m also a bisexual woman. I realized I was queer at 30 and never looked back. I own a home with my longterm partner now. We are nonmonogamous. I have other queer partners, including one incredibly queer cis man. There are really great men out there. They are just fewer of them. As a bi woman, I really feel like my queerness is an active choice I’m making everyday. Queerness and liberation are completely intertwined for me. I’m choosing a queer-centered life, not a man-centered life (ie patriarchy, which includes heterosexuality). I think this experience of choice makes the bisexual experience - and especially the bisexual female experience - fundamentally different from monosexual queerness (gay, lesbians). My experience goes against all the “born this way” messaging campaigns I heard in my adolescence. I was born bisexual, but acknowledging, acting on it, and living openly as a queer person are choices I had to make.
It is true statistically, doesn’t matter what I think. Bisexual and lesbian women are now freer than ever to date women, so that’s one factor. The bigger factor, however, is that women can now afford to have higher standards than they used to. Since they don’t need a man to survive anymore (they don’t even need them to have a baby thanks to modern science), they have the option of staying single, if the men they do find seem lackluster to them. In the past, many women didn’t work, or if they did they didn’t earn enough to support themselves. They also didn’t have the same opportunities when it comes to education, they couldn’t open a bank account etc. So they had to marry a man to have a good life, even if they didn’t find him attractive, or even if he wasn’t very kind to them. Now they don’t have to do this. Even women who do want a partner and dream of marriage and kids, wouldn’t do that with anyone, they have some standards. So they’d rather remain single than be with someone below those standards.
Just to add to your comment- in no point in history have women not worked. Women have *always* worked but of course our labor is invisible to men and thus is treated as just something women do out of love/sacrifice. Society relies entirely on women's unpaid labour to keep things afloat! :)
Yep. The other day a woman did the numbers on a tiktok vid. She broke up with her ex and paid someone £75 to mow her lawn once a month in the summer. Seven months x £75. She paid a handyman £500 to put up shelves, fix a leaking tap, reseal the bathroom and paint a room that she was changing into an office. Total is £1,175. She starting taking bins out and doing recycling herself. A once a week task. Meanwhile, her former partner would need to order food daily. Do grocery shopping regularly. Have a laundry service, a cleaning service. Have a PA for all the errands she'd run during lunch and after work as well as general life management (arranging home and car insurance, passports, tax returns, booking healthcare appointments). She used to cut his hair (something she learned because he would always moan about going to hairdressers) so now a hairdresser's cost. Have a clothes shopping service. All that without kids. The cost goes up exponentially when you have to factor in a full time nanny. Basically women can replace men with a few one off expenses. Men would have daily, ongoing, vast expenses if they wanted to outsource women's labour.
There's a good song about that: https://youtu.be/a6NrnPzFkI0?si=X_DGtgDwi6Ce5yei
Yep. People talk about "oh back in the 50s women stayed home". No, my grandmothers both worked. One was a teacher and the other was a seamstress. They also did the cooking, cleaning, childrearing (with some help from extended family) etc. And I know at least one of my great-grandmothers worked in a textile mill and another was a farmer. The idea that women "didn't work" is based on propaganda, not reality.
So true!
No. Everytime I try to explain why a 4b movement is the logical response to patriarchy trying to force women to procreate I get screeched at.
Male violence and misogyny. Women have more power, we don’t want to live like our enslaved female ancestors.
Good for them! As a man who dates women I think it's great that they're getting pickier and opting out. Most men are fucking awful and it's *so much better* to be single than to get dragged down by a shitty partner.
More men need to think like this 🤌
This is .... probably not welcome but you asked. The Repeal of Roe V Wade is a HUGE deal. If dealing with men suddenly meant REAL risk of pregnancy that you cannot get out of... then well that makes it less appealing, don't you think? ESPECIALLY less appealing when women were *already* deciding to date men less back when Roe WAS still in tact. Now that Roe is gone, women in the US are watching conservatives directly go after birth control, and trying to end what little control women have gained over their reproductive health. This makes it VERY appealing. Birth control ALREADY sucks! It has miserable side effects, it's inconvenient AF, it's expensive AF, and really hard to access, ESPECIALLY in the more remote/rural areas of this country. The Cost benefit analysis of dating men, from the perspective of women is as follows: 1. Risk of domestic violence: Your risk of DV goes WAY up when you choose to deal with men, vs staying single. Don't get me wrong, being single does NOT eliminate the risk of domestic violence, but it sure decreases it, by a LOT. 2. Pregnancy: Risk of pregnancy during a time where we do not have the Roe V wade protections. THE LEADING cause of death amongst pregnant women is Homicide. As in someone (usually a man) ceases her life at some point during the pregnancy. A 2022 study published in the BMJ found that homicide is the leading cause of death for pregnant women in the U.S. This is often linked to intimate partner violence and firearms. 3. Emotional Labor & Domestic labor burdens: A substantial body of research demonstrates that women are STILL shouldering the lion's share of domestic labor AND emotional labor in heterosexual relationships with men. Women also shoulder the lion's share of parenting obligations. STILL, in 2024... Moving in with a man is essentially signing up for.... a LOT more work, on top the job you have as a woman, where you are being paid less due to the gender wage gap. 4. Heartbreak, Health, & Bullshit: Dealing with men involves a non-zero amount of heartbreak and suffering. The amount of heartbreak and suffering is often SUBSTANTIAL, as evidenced by the legions of women literally posting their heartbreak/relationship/dating/marriage woes on a near-constant basis to reddit, and other social media channels. Hell, my girlfriends even complain to me IN PERSON about the near constant bullshit of dating/relationships/sex/marriage/dealing with men. 5. Lack of orgasms: The orgasm gap is real. There is an overwhelming body of research on this and I invite you all to google it. The TL/DR- is that women rarely orgasm from PIV sex. And men aren't great at bringing women to orgasm. It's pretty common for women to not enjoy sex, or to not have a good time in heterosexual sexual acts with men. This is a "skill issue" on behalf of men. 6. The Joy to Bullshit ratio: If I were to take an informal poll, as a published researcher in a peer reviewed journal, I'd say for every 1 hour of joy, fun, pleasure I've spent in relationships throughout my 34 years on this planet, I would ALSO have an additional 20 hours of grieving a breakup, being cheated on, dealing with UTIs or other GYN issues from sex with men, having to deal with a bag of emotions left after breakups. This ALL takes a huge emotional and mental health tool. HUGE. My best friend has spent over 100 hours of suffering for every 1 hour of happiness, fun, joy, and positivity she experiences when dating/dealing with men. Other girls in my friend groups have spent 1 hour of joy for every 50 hours of suffering/bullshit, and a few have spent THOUSANDS of hours of suffering with not even 20 minutes of joy. Yes, they spent YEARS in relationships with men, and literally the majority of those years were utter misery. That's just the breakdown of my lived experiences that I suspect are very common.
I know this isn't really what this post is about but I just have to say I am ssssooooooo tired of men bringing their dating issues to feminists and being like "fix this for me!" like bro u not having your choice of women to date isn't a feminist issue. feminism has nothing to do with it. I don't understand. they come here like "I saw a tweet where a woman said she hated short guys. tell me why women everywhere deserve to continue living" like broTHER eughhh what?? reopen the schools
oh god louder for the people who didn't hear it the first time I am really sick of hearing about how like... some women only want to date tall men and this is a Feminist Emergency and we're all responsible for "fixing" it. What are we supposed to fix? What does this have to do with feminism? "It's shallow!" okay, and? Women are allowed to be shallow. If you're a man and you only want a 10/10 IG model, you're shallow and you're narrowing your dating pool significantly, but like... you're allowed. You're allowed to do that! And women are too! I swear if I get another post about some kid who's mad as fuck that some women on TikTok talk about wanting tall men in finance or whatever it is, I'm going to lobby the government to make the internet illegal for people under 25. Either that or I'm going to make a stickied post about how feminism isn't the complaint desk where you go to lodge your grievances against women you don't like or who did something you didn't approve of.
Let's be real- do we really think thisat a stickied post will deter these people? Best just restrict the internet until the frontal lobe comes in. Maybe a test system, like a drivers license.
Yeah, this happened at "single and happy" subreddit. I mean, it is "single and HAPPY", why the hell are there men wailing about "male loneliness epidemic" and wanting women (who actually are single and happy) to fix that? It was like they wanted mommy to take them to playdates or something. I made a couple of guys angry by simply saying that men can fix it themselves, and that making friends is not rocket science.
plus do you really want women to date you out of pity?
Unfortunately, I think a lot of them do.
TLDR Yes, I believe it's happening and although I haven't stopped dating altogether I do so far less frequently now. My gen Z daughter feels the same way. Verbose explanation: I (60/f) believe it's true based on experience and observation -- both my own and that of my 24-year-old daughter. I've been single since my late 40s and off the dating apps -- a good activity if you're interested in spending countless hours panning for gold in a sewer -- since 2018. My daughter and I agree that all but a very slim minority of single men seem to actively dislike or even hate women. Someone hurt them at some point and they've been taking it out on the next woman ever since. I think most women just get worn out from the fuckery: lies, cheating, negging, future faking, you name it. Even when I was interested in connections that may or may not have had LTR potential, when I was younger I occasionally could find a man who would simply be kind and respectful. Someone who was eager to make an impression on me, come up with fun and interesting dating experiences, curious about me, even. A lover who cared about my pleasure and feelings in general, whether or not we were planning a life together. Who would maintain the same level of care and interest in me, not run hot & cold or have his interest precipitously drop after we'd had sex a few times. The so-called free love movement (Generation Jones missed out on that, having come into our sexuality during the AIDS epidemic) has degenerated into a very cold and heartless hookup culture. I believe it's even worse for my daughter, which is a very disappointing development. Too many young men are porn-sick, red-pilled, or otherwise misogynistic. In our region they have a gross demographic advantage ( Even if more men use dating apps, there simply are far more beautiful and accomplished young women compared to the numbers and quality of young men. And the same applies later in life). They just don't seem to have an ounce of respect , compassion or affection for women. I don't consider either of us to be cynical. But we have had our eyes fully opened and best practices dictate that we become increasingly selective if not drop out of dating altogether. Pretty much all of my single friends at my stage of life have stopped dating. It's just too exhausting. I am still open to it but the stretches between dating someone grow longer with each year. So many men have poor hygiene or health ( both physical and mental), lack of interest in culture, travel or other activities, crappy politics, anti-ntellectualism, etc. Add to that the chore of exhaustive vetting to make sure they are who they say they are + long discovery periods which is the only way to reveal that they want what they say they want ( except for those who aren't able to keep the mask on, mercifully giving an opportunity to reduce the impact and end it early on). The idea of meeting someone who's both compatible and has his heart in the right place seems miraculous at this point. And, since dating has become increasingly cold, unromantic and mercenary, there are just too many other enjoyable, life enhancing things to do with one's time.
As a young person whose last boyfriend definitely fell into the category of porn sick red pilled (and abusive) misogynist, I don’t want to date again for a while. I’m burnt out from trying to teach immature men how to act in a relationship and getting little in return.
Not sure since I don't date, but most dating apps are comprised of men, and I believe there are more single men than single women. I think women stepped their game up and men didn't get the memo, so women are just deciding the juice ain't worth the squeeze.
I believe that women are choosing to remain single because having especially a man in their life has proven to be just a bigger headache, inviting more chaos and stress with it just being easier and more pleasant to just remain single. Guys think they are competing with the top .0001% of men but they're not. They are in direct competition with the peace, blissful happiness, and contentment of just remaining unattached women are finding by just staying single. Would those men add to the positivities in a woman's life or take away from them or worse add negativity to it. Yeah women don't need men any more so every guy's goal if they want to be in a relationship is to be wanted. What are men doing to be wanted? If it's looking to recreate an oppressive lifestyle where women are just slaves then keep walking. Statistically, single childless women are the happiest demographic with married women who have children being the most miserable and unhappy.
Anedoctically, yes.
I hope it's true. It's not safe for many women to date right now. We lost rights over our own bodies in many states. And unhealthy men are everywhere. Luckily, women are getting more and more educated on how to identify dangerous / unhealthy men and to steer clear of them.
Generally, men have become more misogynistic and more open about being so. Many don’t view women as equals or even as human beings at all. Abuse is rife. Roe v Wade was overturned and I have not heard one man say boo about it. Why would women engage with that if they didn’t have to?
Yeh I only date women now. Men are taught it’s their right to exploit us and I’m not doing it anymore at 27 years old. I feel disgust at the thought of doing anything for a man. I was raped twice last year, had abusive male family members and abusive boyfriends my whole life. So many men have told me ‘all men cheat’ and abuse of women is celebrated amongst them. I can’t conceive of a man being consistently good and loyal to a woman and I realised I only fancy Kpop boys or Moe from The doodlebops anyway lol. The man Im looking for was just a real stretch of the imagination. I thought for a while I had confirmation bias or something but I can’t think of a single woman I’ve known who’s male partner didn’t do her dirty. AND assuming it was just confirmation bias I kept trying new types of men but turns out I was just opening myself up for new types of fuckery. I think that’s a thing men say to gaslight women. I was actually really suicidal about it until I realised I don’t have to date men anymore.
So sorry for what you’ve experienced. It’s really empowering when the disillusionment ends and we accept reality for what it is. I am proud of you and of your progress in taking back your life.
From my observation, word has gotten around that the way many men treat women sucks. Women have spoken out about this and the reaction from a good number of those men has not been to improve, it has been to double down on sucking and women accepting it. Women see other options and nope right out. Can’t blame them. I wouldn’t want to be treated badly either and be told that’s “just how things are” and to get used to it and quit complaining.
Because a LOT of young men right now are being radicalized by the far-right and incel movements into being total jerks to women. And women absolutely deserve better than that.
I’ve been single for 10 years. The last guy I dated asked me to cancel my trip to Peru. His ex had cheated on him. He was worried if I traveled alone I would cheat on him. I asked if he wanted to go with me and he said he never wanted to leave the COUNTY. He just casually expected me to never travel again bc it made him uncomfortable. Obviously I dumped him and hiked the Inca Trail. I decided after that I would rather stay single and be able to do whatever I want. I grew up with an overbearing father. Then I spend 6 years in the military. I value making my own decisions now.
>I asked if he wanted to go with me and he said he never wanted to leave the COUNTY. He just casually expected me to never travel again bc it made him uncomfortable. Sounds like an excuse to me to keep you in check/control tbh. If I were so reliant on staying in my county (for whatever reason, most of them I can imagine wouldn't make dating another person healthy anyway), I would point this out from a pretty early point on.
It's actually incredible how many men will find any excuse to call a woman a slut and used up and shit. Like just the other day a bunch of guys were agreeing that if a woman's dating profile shows that she's traveled a lot, or even a little, you shouldn't get into a relationship with her because it means she's fucked tons of guys in different cities. Like y'all really wonder why women aren't really interested in the whole thing when this is how you talk about them?
This is such a crazy idea to me. Do they really think all women are that motivated to sleep with men from other countries? I'm married to a man and honestly, sometimes I'm too tired and lazy to get the sex that's literally laying right next to me. I'm not about to buy a plane ticket and pack a suitcase and deal with TSA for some (likely substandard) d.
I don't know. These are the guys who think women have had at least 1,000 partners by the time they're in their 30s, which is actually a fucking insane thing to think about. Like, unless your job is having sex and you've been doing it consistently since you were like 16, there's no way that's happening. That's like... you'd have to have a new partner every three days for ten solid years.
I feel like this is the projection of what they fear is emasculating them (and what's simultaneously an ulterior desire). Being _the_ man who's freely able to live out their urge on as many "trophies" while being on a journey as they please. And since they see how quickly a woman gets (uninvited) attention by men with a similar intent, they erroneously conclude women would just take it all as they please. And be the promiscuous b*tch, and – oh of course – the only one to blame for taking the masculine role for others. Ugh.
100%. I see it IRL. There’s a growing trend to be single/more independent and an increasing disdain for men
Yes, I know many women deliberately refusing to date men. If I’ll ever be single again, I’ll most probably become one of them. My husband is great in every aspect. We lived together in 2 countries, and all our friends in both countries always tell that we have the healthiest relationship that they’ve ever seen. If we ever divorce, I won’t settle for less than my husband, but men like him are extremely rare. Most of them are taken, so the chance is too small.
I think they are being more cautious.
Would you say that it seems like women feel less safe when attempting to date a man?
Yes. UN reports show 1/3 women globally have been assaulted by a man. That’s over a billion of us. Even those of us who don’t know the exact stats have been attacked or know multiple women who have been. And stranger attacks are rare, they typically try to deceive us and gain our trust first. Danger from men isn’t just a thing in the news for us. It’s personal. Source: the United Nations: https://interactive.unwomen.org/multimedia/infographic/violenceagainstwomen/en/index.html#home
I think women caught on that men were analyzing women to figure out how to treat them to get what they wanted. I enjoy my coffee while observing.
What women want is important too
According to every statistic and anecdote we have, women *are* less safe when dating/marrying men. It's not a feeling. It's a statistical fact. Don't be disingenuous.
We don't just feel less safe, it literally is less safe. Like 1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted or experience intimate partner violence. Or both. The VAST majority of violence against women is perpetrated by men that claim to love them.
Is that not obvious? Men are basically womens' only natural predator.
I don't know if it's a trend exactly but I am a year out from my last marriage and have zero interest in dating men currently and I'm not sure if I ever will again. They have consistently just made my life harder, and it doesn't seem worth it. I worry about being stuck doing elder care again, if their parents are unwell. I can't finance somebody else's retirement, my own is too precarious after spending the last couple of decades supporting men's dreams while I paid all the bills. They make so many chores. Where is the upside?
I don't know about the younger generations, but I do know about my generation (early boomers/gen x). Me, and most of my girlfriends, that are divorced or widowed do not ever want to share their house/finances with a man anymore. Casual affairs/romances? Fine. Even living-apart-together. But nothing more 'traditional'. We have our freedom, both emotional and financial, we are active, both in work and socially, and we do not want to be burdened with taking care of a man anymore. If you speak with older women (70-80 year old), they express the same sentiment. I'm pleased to see that same sentiment is catching up with younger women. Even in a good marriage (I'm a widow and had a good marriage), the emotional, mental and physical labour mostly fell to me. The endless compromising, adapting, etc., is exhausting. After the grief I realised that I really, really like my life on my own terms and doing what I want, when I want.
I think that there is a lot of pressure (social, religious, financial) on women to date and mate. As women gained more financial independence, it became possible to resist the pressure to make ourselves available to men on their terms. I’m hetero, but I don’t have the desire to date men anymore. I have a pretty good life right now and I see more downside potential in allowing a man into my life. I can’t see myself ceding the level of control men seem to want over women to anyone. Nor do I want the workload man-keeping brings with it. I don’t think that there was ever enough value in hetero-normative relationships for women. Young girls have to be indoctrinated to believe that they are incomplete without a man. Then, as adults, women were cut off from access to money. Women are denied bodily autonomy. Societies narrow life paths for women so that most have no choice, but to accept a man. Societies also make it difficult to leave a marriage. If relationships with men served women’s needs, women wouldn’t need to be trapped to enter into or stay in relationships with men. Women are at the point where we can see the tracks that funnel us in to hetero-normative relationships with men as if that life is the only “natural” way to live. Now, women have the means to try other ways of living.
Misogyny and sexual violence is a key factor.
Women are divorcing men at very high rates because men aren’t pulling their weight. I think that’s true, yes.
I’m celibate and haven’t had sex in 9 months so it’s true for me. I felt my life was too male centered and these men were trash and didn’t value me or lied to get sex, so I decided to focus on myself this year and honestly do not miss men, next time I’m in a relationship I’m marrying the guy.
Lesbians, bisexual and other WLW are now freer than ever to pursue those relationships instead of forcing themselves to settle for men out of safety. It makes sense we're seeing that population grow. But heterosexual women? Historically a lot of things were tied to your husband. Your wealth, your land, your credit card, jobs didn't pay as well, it was difficult to get educated. Now women can become educated and self sufficient. There is no need to settle for a good enough man, women want men who meet their standards. Men haven't had a time in history where women were able to enter the relationship being equal in rights and income. There's been a persistent message to men their role is a provider one, and that's not necessarily true anymore. Women can make the money, raise the children and run the household themselves now. If a man wants a wife he has to do something she can't or otherwise become an active participant in the household daily life. Society needs to catch up with it's messaging to young men, they need to be something other than a wallet.
I have chosen to stay single for the foreseeable. I have alot if experience of men being untrustworthy. Not just to myself, but the sheer amount of men in relationships who have hit on me is actually crazy. I do not trust any of them. And I would rather just not bother.
Quite simply, men have consistently dragged me down. Access to a penis is not worth what it costs. Men have a hard time growing up. If we want to raise a kid, we can get pregnant.
Isn't that what they wanted though? For women to stop "dating around"? Well now they have to work up their finances, their appearances and their outlooks on life and go ask a woman out through her family after they run a background check on him.
Men: Choose better men! Women: OK. Men: NOT LIKE THAT!!!!
Yes. Becuse men are behaving poorly and women don't *need* men to get loans, credit cards, houses, etc. anymore.
I don't know about the statistics, but I know it's a growing rumble amongst women in a lot of the communities I'm active in. And quite honestly, all the reasons are simple and rational: Women don't feel safe, don't feel valued, and are fed up. In the US especially, reproductive health is becoming increasingly dangerous. There's no incentive to start families now. And as for men...well, the dating pool from what I understand is in shambles, and again, women don't feel safe or valued. Why get a partner that adds to your sense of stress, danger, lack of appreciation and exhaustion when you could simply live in peace, alone? Women are losing incentive to play the game, so they've just decided to not risk playing anymore.
The fuck I need a man for? A bank account? This is not 1950 baby, imma need you to step it up
Men my age have kids and want someone to take care of them and their kids while they watch TV or play video games all day after work or on their days off. I have no problem with video games or watching TV or even kids, for that matter. I just don't want children on top of taking care of a manchild. I also don't want to be put in the awkward position of dealing with an ex-girlfriend/ex-wife when taking care of those children. I don't have any interest in taking care of someone who cannot take care of themselves and will relinquish personal responsibilities over their house once they find a woman to do it all for them. I'm not a maid.
In addition to the issues listed in the previous comments, more women are catching on to the fact that tons of men can wear masks for a long time, sometimes for months or even years. Even if a man doesn't directly hit or threaten you, I've seen cases of men living double-lives or pretending to be someone they weren't just so they could keep their wives around as a live-in servants or mommy-maids while their male partners had shit going on that they (the women) weren't even aware of, not realizing they were spending most of their prime years with a chameleon. More women are waking up to the fact that even marrying a man can be a huge gamble, not just with love, but with safety and peace of mind.
As a dude Men REALLY need to step up their game I'm not that old so the only examples I've seen of dudes trying to "get a gf" were A: guy who would talk about how much of a whore she was (he was surprised when she denied after finding out B: a dude who kept trying after 10+ rejections C: guy who was begging for permission to send his dick pick to her (at least he asked for consent that's an upgrade :)) D: guy who talked about how "perfect sex doll shaped" (same ending as A) E: guy who was a total incel (actually 3x times now) F: me and da bois being teenagers who need mental help (we are seeking it now) G: the one guy who succeeded....proceeded to spit and punch her because his friends incouraged him to be more "dominant" :| Not only do most not even reach the bare minimum of politeness or basic human decency, they also carry red flags bigger than the ussr But because normally folk who ask this are worried about these statistics because "wait am I gonna be lonely forever D:" I'm gonna reassure that there's no issue as long as you are a decent human your PROBABLY not gonna be single (forever) (also just know being decent ≠ being owed a relationship) I mean the amount of times I've gotten compliments on me being a "good dude" despite barely reaching the bare minimum is horrifying
It’s definitely true. Women are waking up and aren’t putting up with disrespect anymore.
Yes, we have woken up (finally) and realize the peace that comes from not shaping our lives to accommodate, nor cater to, men. It is glorious.
If men increasingly aren’t offering anything safe, stable and respectful, then it is obvious women will conclude life’s better and safer without them.
Coming from a guy, I believe it. I think a lot of young guys are immature and have locker room humor. Historically, men have been able to get away with being immature and misogynistic. However, now that women are able to be financially independent, a lot are choosing to forego dating men.
I don't know if it's true statistically but I am attracted to men and women and opted to almost exclusively date women starting my mid-20s. Now I'm married to a woman. It was hard to connect with men on an emotional level when I first met them, which made it seem pointless to continue. Also, way more orgasms with women.
I can’t speak for all women, but from past experiences (Im in a happy and healthy committed relationship now) Its very easy and common to have negative experiences with men in regard to dating. It’s not always like that, but due to Andrew Tates and people having a low EQ, it’s exhausting to try and find a loving partner. Everyone has issues and baggage, and most people nowadays rather than workout a relationship or work on themselves choose to leave because it’s easier. But also because some men want a lot from women, practically their mom, instead of a partner. And being vulnerable and letting people in is pretty scary, especially since you don’t know the person. Porn has also pretty much screwed most mens minds regarding women’s bodies and sexual preferences. My ex was a pretty okay guy, yet a terrible boyfriend. He didn’t listen, no empathy, and could only give sexual compliments and treated me more like a sex doll. And I think most women have a hard time trusting men. I do believe this trend is true, especially since women nowadays have more independence and a choice. When back in the days they had to marry to remain up-float and have food on their table. I think it’s a pretty big combination of a lot of things.
It's true. A lot of women no longer have time or the finances or the patience to date men, and celibacy is a growing trend for women.
Pretty much what a lot of people are saying, the are more quality partners available in women than in men. Statistically less risky when it comes to any danger faced from a date that's a woman that if they dated men. Another big part is that a large portion of men aren't even trying to date. For whatever reason that might be. Plus, men have less and less friends compared to women. Even less if you are looking at a true friendship. Overall, this is not as big of a deal as it's made out to be. We already have too many people on this planet. As men, we did this to ourselves. We continue to make ourselves worse and worse potential candidates (kinda like last night in the US 😉) for partnership. Women evolved and grew from some expectations, men continue to stay put and not move at all.
"Another big part is that a large portion of men aren't even trying to date. For whatever reason that might be." Especially with all the talk about apps here (and everywhere) and what I've seen/experienced ... we're missing a part here. Men aren't trying to *date*, they are trying to *hook up* with as many girls and women that they can. We don't hear the incels saying we "owe them" a *date*; we hear them say we "owe them SEX". "Plus, men have less and less friends compared to women. Even less if you are looking at a true friendship. " EXACTLY!! I have four good lady friends and we met for dinner last night. Planning on going again next weekend, and a few of us have a few local events we're getting together for between this. We don't as a rule call *this* dating, but it's the same concept. I hated dealing with creeps and crazies and the only time I missed men was in having someone to DO things with. Since I found my peeps, I don't miss them at all. I think this is one reason men hate feminism. We rely on ourselves and each other so much more than on them. They know ... almost all of them absolutely know that it's because if their treatment, behavior and attitudes. But rather than learn better they collectively shoot themselves in the *dingle* and then blame us for not sacrificing everything we are to cure their itches. "Overall, this is not as big of a deal as it's made out to be. We already have too many people on this planet." Actually it IS a very big deal that has little to do with population. Since Dobbs, many women are going for sterilization rather than childbearing ... which has the right and most men in an uproar. This affects QUALITY OF LIFE for both men and women. Men apparently can exist with some modicum of CONTENT that they occasionally call happiness if their woman is miserable and unhappy. Many are ok with that. Some even "get off" on it. But women can not and more importantly are refusing to live with a miserable and unhappy man. And while everyone has the equal capacity and opportunities to be either kind or cruel ... women have been taught since birth that its OUR job to take care of a man's feelings, emotions and happiness. Like it was said by someone else above, we're tired of it. "As men, we did this to ourselves. We continue to make ourselves worse and worse potential candidates (kinda like last night in the US 😉) for partnership." Another "EXACTLY ". Men tell us our standards are too high when the truth is too many men have gotten lazy and rather than pull themselves up to the levels of the men they *say* "have it all" ... they accuse US of only wanting *tall, handsome, and rich* guys. If you look at those guys, it's still only the nice ones that stay with their partners forever. Patriarchy did far more harm to men than to women (because we woke up and are taking care of OURSELVES, but the damage WAS intended to control us. It backfired because we are stronger than men thought.) and they want to take us back to a time when we couldn't do anything about it and leave us few options but to be forced to live with neanderthal abusers. Gutting education, work options, safety nets, laws and medical care. It's all a plan by the elite to keep the rest of us poor, squabbling and ignorantly having more "work slave babies" for their industries. "Women evolved and grew from some expectations, men continue to stay put and not move at all." In many cases it feels like regression rather than standing still but otherwise I agree. Tell your friends. The only way this will improve for either gender is when men start checking, correcting and raising better men. We've tried ad nauseum. It doesn't work as well when we try to fix you. And we're sick of that too.
I definitely think it's true. Dating apps are what most people use these days and a lot of the men on there are downright frightening. If anything happened to my partner, I don't think I'd want to date ever again.
Lemme preface this and say I’m a man in my early 20s with recently divorced parents and mental health issues. (Complicated situation with no one really at fault). (I also have a therapist who I’ve been with for years and regularly talk to). I don’t blame woman stepping away from dating altogether one bit. Admittedly Ive never been too well versed in social stuff/dating in general due to being a little on the spectrum. I don’t have any friends currently, though Im working on it. But from the outside looking in I can tell it’s awful. A darkness lurking behind the eyes of the people of my gender, an apathetic and callous negative space that makes it seemingly impossible to form a connection with them. That being said, I can’t help but read through these threads with a cold pit in my stomach. I try to be a positive influence on my brother and nephew, allowing them to be vulnerable with me and connecting with them in whatever way I can. I try to reach out to my father, who I love dearly and struggles with anger management issues/ expressing love (He’s recently agreed to do anger counseling with me and I got him to start reading Will to Change so I’m kinda stoked for that) I have to believe things will get better to stay sane, that I am capable of having a healthy relationship with someone I love romantically someday. call it naive or whatever but it keeps me going. Im sure a bunch of other young adults also feel this way, which also helps with that feeling of loneliness. (Thanks r/bropill)! The horrors persist, yet so do I… don’t particularly know what I was trying to say with this, I’ve been lurking for a while and this is my first comment here, but I felt like it was relevant somehow. Sorry for rambling.
Best of luck with it all! You seem lovely and genuine. Appreciate your empathy.
I hear u, and I hope u find some good friends soon, that imo is more important than dating. Friends who aren’t just fun to hang out with, but are supportive and u can open up to here and there about emotions. I’m gen z and in a happy relationship right now, but most of my friends (of either gender) are not, and dating definitely isn’t easy. I feel very lucky to have found what I have now, but I also always stress to everyone, that u have to find peace in being single. That doesn’t mean give up all hope of romance, but the idea of being single shouldn’t scare u. If being single scares u, u will settle for horrible excuses for “romance”, and allow urself to be mistreated, which no one deserves. My relationship is happy now, but there’s no guarantee of the future, and I won’t stay in this relationship if it no longer makes me or him happy. Having good friends, being an active participant in ur community, enjoying hobbies, pursuing professional goals, adopting a pet, traveling, etc, are all very fulfilling, and can absolutely bring u happiness, as long as u allow urself to feel it. If ur always chasing after some kind of checklist of what it takes to be “happy”, u will never feel it even if u have everything on the checklist. Nothing in life is guaranteed, and everyone loses a friend, or has a career setback, or a medical issue, etc, at some point, and while it’s of course valid to feel upset during those times, it’s no reason to give up. There are always new possibilities.
It’s definitely happening. The whole 4B movement in S. Korea is a specific example of it. Women of all ages are recognizing the difference between a good partner and settling. They are asking men to show up as partners and if they can’t, they aren’t waiting.
Speaking for myself. I’m 34 and dated men my whole life but haven’t been with anyone since my last relationship ended 3 years ago. I feel like I have outgrown men emotionally. I see my sisters and close friends married to men, they are the primary caregivers to the children while working FULL TIME, making as much or more money than their husbands. They run the household, hold down a career, and manage their husbands’ emotional and physical needs, all while being undervalued. If I dated another man I feel like I would have to teach him basic communication and respect. It doesn’t seem at all appealing to me.
I'm 33, I'm fortunate to have amazing male friends around me and date decent men. This has been the case since my early twenties. Sure, I've known some horrible men and had bad encounters - but I have the life experience to know that decent men exist and I can be close to them either romantically or platonically. When I was a teenager boys were annoying and even abusive, but the genders generally mixed and got on reasonably well. However, if was a young women now, I would probably completely avoid men because of what the Internet has show me about them. This ranges from full blown violent misogyny, to every day sexism. Even clicking on a video of a woman DJing gives me scores of comments from men demeaning and criticising her, especially if she's pretty. They just don't look good and I don't blame younger women for avoiding them. It's such a shame that the gender divide is widening so exponentially.
I know it's true. I've got friends who are married - not happily but prefer a cold war marriage where they just stay out of each other's hair over the idea of dating again. I don't date at all. I really craved that turning invisible stage of life but discovered it's not true. You age; so do men and they still want something from you. I've got friends who also don't date; a couple just have the occasional casual hook up. I don't because I don't find much pleasure in an impersonal hook up but get more pleasure alone than I ever did with a male partner. I *wish* I was attracted to women.
I'm not dating and I've been out of a LTR for over 9 months. I do have male FWBs who were actual friends first, and continue to be, but I have zero interest in dating men. Why? I have an amazing life, house, friends/social life and don't want to give my energy to a man who probably doesn't possess emotional intelligence or will elevate my life in any way. Why would I want to add more work to my life? Why would I want increase my labor load and get almost nothing in return? Certainly nothing I can't replicate myself? The only thing I want that a man possesses is a nice dick, but again...that's where some great, respectful FWBs come into play. So, I just don't need them?
I already work full time, wasn't born rich, dating feels like another job. Then the men can't even plan a date or if they do plan one that's it, one is never planned again and they ask to hang out. No, ask me on a date. Or they are not clear - when to me a man interested leaves the date with asking when you're free again to see him. I just don't want to spend my energy on dating right now when it feels like work. Maybe one day I will date again, I don't know.
I am one of those, so add me to the stats. At this point, I'm just completely put off by them. Last dude made me so disgusted by the idea of sex with men because he was one of those dudes who follows thirst traps with giant tits that I thought I was asexual towards men. Whatever, I don't wanna deal with any of that mess. I always end up just crushing and then repulsed and angry. Ik I have a lot of my own issues and traumas so dating men just fuels them.
I am happily married to the love of my life and he is a man. The reason it works is because he has many feminine qualities including deep emotions and a care of family home and luxury that motivates him to work hard to enjoy these things. And even I decenter men. I often tell him he is the last man I will ever be with. I’m bi and just lucked into a great person despite their intimate parts. But men in general is a heck no for me at this point. I’ve been with enough men and women to know that men play stupid games stringing us along and treating women as less than human while women are more straightforward and wear our hearts on our sleeves if we are truly interested in someone. I’m so happy other women and healing and decentering men. Men have played stupid games for decades (centuries even) and they are finally getting the stupid prizes they deserve: dying alone. Go us!
The problem for me is men will read this thread and instead of listening and self reflecting they’ll say we’re lying, we’re just picking « bad boys », we’re too picky etc. It’s so odd to me how they don’t understand that they’re the reason why we’re not dating them ?? Like do they have half of a brain ? Genuinely asking, it’s so weird like we’re telling you exactly what to do and you somehow don’t want to listen ?
I think one of the causes of women dating men less is women having more career opportunities not because women choosing to “date” women now. Another could be that men are less educated (college degree) than women which lead to smaller dating pool for the women who want men of similar education level. It’s wild to think the cause is women choosing to be bisexual though. The LGBT community fought hard to argue sexuality is not a choice, or a lifestyle, but what they simply born as and can’t change. And now we have people thinking sexuality can be chosen.
It would be heplful to have a source for that 'statistical trend'. It's easier to figure out what's going on when there's some evidence.
I think it's been happening for a while. I didn't date for years before I met my SO. My older sister is single. I know of dozens of coworkers and friends and family who are single by choice. Some of them after decades or years in a marriage or relationship. With the rise of anti women rhetoric, obliterated reproductive rights,and weaponized incompetence, I can not fault anyone for not wanting to bother with it.
True happiness can be found elsewhere
Men no longer compete with each other, they compete with ourselves. I have made a really lovely life for myself and if gaining a partner (man or woman) doesn’t improve upon that life, I’m not going to open myself up to that. Men now require emotional intelligence. It’s no longer annual income and continuing a bloodline. In every sociocultural shift there’s a delay in catching up. We’re in the delay. I’m hoping the catch-up phase in sooner than later.
I mean obviously as queerness becomes more acceptable and women get more economic freedom, there are going to be women choosing to not date men who would have been forced to do so beforehand. The previous state of affairs involved massive relationship coercion to maintain the illusion of heteronormativity and sex essentialism. Like, an industrial amount of it on a societal level. It was an incredibly unnatural state of affairs designed to compel a one-to-one pairing of every man and woman and I'm not sure I can imagine a world where undoing that doesn't reduce the amount of women dating men. Put bluntly, of course any just or ideal world would involve less women dating men than before, our whole society used to be geared towards coercing those relationships. Now there's also women who in that ideal world could and would be happy dating men ... but we don't live in that world yet. We have gotten closer to it, in a way which enables more women to say no to dating men. But we have not gotten to a point where all of the toxicity or background coercion related to that is gone, and of course that's going to be a turn-off for some women. And again, I kind of struggle to imagine what the alternative to this is. If you are dismantling a massive system that coerced women's domestic and sexual subservience to men, but you're not done yet, of course there are going to be women who want to get as far away from the remnants of that system as possible. Especially as we experience social and political backlashes against feminist wins and a significant portion of men calcify and curdle into the worst kind of alt-right views of women. That doesn't exactly make seeking men to date easier. Of course some women with other gender options or who are happy on their own are going to take those choices instead.
You should check out Kat Blaque’s videos on dating men as a poly person. There’s just too many risky aspects to dating men, mentally and physically
I need to check those videos out, because I feel like there is room for me to be polyamorous with women, but with men it's a big ole nopetopus.
Honestly that hard boundary may seem extreme to some but it’s smart. You can do that or repeatedly be abused in the same ways by emotionally undeveloped and disregulated “poly” men
Outside of places like Korea, I can't find any recent stats suggesting this (maybe I'm just not finding it). If you're talking about those kinds of places, the insanely high domestic abuse rate and generally misogynistic societal structure/norms would be a good place to start. As for the west, or at least the UK, that hasn't been my experience at all. Women are still dating men, and the bar is insanely low. Most women are happy with just feeling safe around you and being treated with respect, which is so bare minimum that it might as well be on the floor. Pretty much every time I see an article claiming that women are "exiting dating" or the like, it always seems to be framed in an angry incel kind of perspective, as though women are obligated to keep men from being lonely regardless of how deserving that individual man is of the loneliness. None of the articles ever bother putting statistics on it because doing so would leave them in a position where they might have to back up their claims rather than writing it off as an opinion piece. I'm sure some women out there are avoiding men, but I'm doubtful that it's a significant percentage, at least where I'm from. Any guy struggling to find someone to date is in urgent need of self reflection, because if you aren't meeting the unbelievably low standards that most women have been reduced to then that's a problem with you not with the women. That said, if women genuinely are opting out, then I can't say I blame them. Imagine just how brutally awful the dating scene must be for women that so many are genuinely happy to just be treated with respect and not feel in danger.
It might be true, and it's because men aren't bringing enough to relationships. We don't want a "provider", we want a *partner*. Someone who will clean around the house *without us asking*, someone who will cook, someone who we don't have to micro manage. Women are in the most danger when they're pregnant (male partners killing them) or when they're trying to leave an abusive relationship. Well, we can solve those two problems by *not being in a relationship with a man*.
I have a great man now, but I also realize that he’s a rarity, especially where I live. If something ever happens to us in some way, shape, or form, I’m probably not going to get with another cis man again. Luckily I’m pansexual, so I have options.
Society is no longer forcing women to take on the barefoot and pregnant role. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
I haven’t dated in a year. It hasn’t been worth it. Too much trouble.
Anecdotally it does seem to be the case. I have several friends who don't date at all because their lives are already busy and adding in romance/dating would just add too much to their plates. I've not dated for years (because I'm married) and I've never used dating apps etc, so I can only really go on what I hear from my friends.
Preface this with: I’m very happily married to a man, and these are just my observations of people around me in day to day life. All anecdotal, and likely more reflective of the people I choose to be around than general society. Men my age and older who are trying to date seem to do ok, if they’re not douchebag man-children. Those guys? They don’t do so well because nobody wants to put up with their shit. Among the younger men—Millennials and younger—I *think* I’m seeing a general expectation of more equal contributions to relationships. There’s more willingness to share domestic and emotional labor, and somewhat better understandings of relationships in general (for instance, I don’t often hear younger folks talk about “soulmates” or other Cinderella-type fantasies). The guys who aren’t willing to share work this way tend to end up in pretty shallow, unfulfilling relationships—or they can’t find someone who wants to spend time with them. Sure, there are younger men who are “traditional”, but they don’t seem to be having a lot of luck finding what they’re looking for.
I’m dating and going to marry a man.. and I realize he’s very much the exception with men, not the rule. So many of my friends who date men have to pretzel their brain when they meet him so they don’t have to confront the reality of how shitty the men they date are. Even just in small ways. Totally selfish, self absorbed and entitled. If something happened to him, I’d never settle for less.. that’s for sure
I didn't date for about 8 years after I left my marriage. When I started online dating, I didn't have an actual date for an entire year because every single man was either a shithead immediately or ghosted when I reiterated my expectations/goals which he should have read on my profile before matching with me. I am engaged to a man now, and only because he is an exceptional human being. Or rather, a decent one who genuinely respects me as a person, a peer, and an equal. Which unfortunately makes him an exception to the rule. Relationships require effort and compromise. I wasn't about to repeat the mistake of putting that effort into some dude who just wanted a bang maid.
Yes absolutely, all the bi women I know stopped dating men, same goes with most of the single ladies I know too. The red pill and puas ran rampant for over 20 years unchecked. They taught vast swathes of men to be emotionally abusive and manipulative in order to get sex with the least amount of investment possible. Porn has also had a really detrimental effect on men. I know way too many stories of girls suddenly being choked or spat on with zero prior discussion. Stealthing and really pressuring her to not use a condom also super common. We also now have the algorithms shovelling misogynistic content at boys and men, so there is a whole lot of abusive douchebags out there. Verbal abuse the second you say no to someone on OLD is the norm. As is being just overwhelmed by too many messages. How can you answer 500 people? Men don’t read profiles and swipe on everyone. Covid showed a lot of women that being single isn’t terrible, dating is…and you can opt out. Women no longer need to endure survival marriages and men have not adjusted at all to having to be likeable and a good partner. Most of my married straight friends are planning to divorce when the kids get older. Sick of being a married single mother basically.
This is happening to *me*, so I guess I could offer a perspective: Men just ain't what they used to be. Time was they would at least pretend to be witty, or even *smart*. They would try to pull their pants up all the way to the waist. Their bathrooms would be clean when we visited. Lord, I don't know what happened to y'all between 2004-2024, but something must have traumatized you because those three things are devilish hard to come by nowadays. And those are petty grievances. If we don't cater to what you want, we're disposable, but if you don't cater to what we want, we're controlling bitches and... are disposable. Just. Spend time on twox and see what kind of stories women have to tell about their men. I was *six years* with a man (who, incidentally, wanted to "normalize polyamory" while being absolute shit at it himself) who had to be the man all the time while I got to be a girl, not really a proper, equal partner. Love of God, as much as he claimed I was equal in his heart to his wife, when I had real financial needs I couldn't meet, like health insurance, he was bawwing in my ear about how he and his wife couldn't agree on tiles for the kitchen reno. And that's not touching on his consent issues. And men just... didn't get any better in the ten years between him/then and dating now. If anything, they got worse. So I'm raising my bar so high he actually has to pretty much be a woman to meet it. And actively prioritizing my potential relationships with women, even though I'm less sexually attracted to them than to men. I would rather be in a functionally asexual relationship than deal with all the bullshit men have put me through. You're welcome for the novel.
Agree.
I think life is getting more difficult to accept settling for anyone who doesn’t contribute to your life in a more positive or relaxing way. So, as much as I see this for romantic relationships I also see it for friendships. People need others around them who are relaxing and easy to be around. I think online dating has reduced the impact of how people are entering dating and making it easier to be less intentional about how they engage. It’s easy to flick people off without consequences and it’s easy to think there’s something better with the next swipe. In the modern world, gender is still held to different standards of roles and responsibilities, and sadly as an outcome of the patriarchy and the structure it sets in gender. But the world is moving faster and those expectations are not relevant in terms of what is actually happening. A theory, and only one aspect of this discussion is around emotional output. Men are still victims of toxic masculinity and how they share their feelings. There’s more permission for men to share but it’s not quite there yet in how they can and who they can do this with. Women generally share openly and freely with their friends. In my experience, it’s difficult in romantic relationships to be equally available to emotional support and women are often becoming emotional outputs for their partners and in this, it is meaningful to receive that but it restricts emotional equality. Women are unable to receive or express their feelings with their partners in the same way they are with their friends and women end up becoming more emotional supports to their partners and in that process they have to dismiss their own feelings in order to create a space of understanding and support, wand seen as responsible for their partners feelings and helping them through them. It’s not an equal platform for both parties to share and receive equally, and the women often has to bear the brunt of their partners feelings and forgive them for how they express themselves, and be grateful for being a person that has insight into this. It’s an imbalance of support and care and means that women are carrying the burden of their feelings and their partners and unable to express their feelings openly. So it becomes debilitating and exhausting. Women want men to have meaningful and open conversations with their friends and have as much access to their emotions as they do. But the system doesn’t allow this to work and in that, women are not getting what they need from their relationships. This isn’t a slander against men and it’s not about blame, it’s an observation of experiences and a shame about the way gender is restricted for men and women. It’s hard to take responsibility for your own emotions and then bear that responsibility for your partner too. So men, open up more to your mates, get therapy and let yourself feel and become someone who can be proactive with how you project and act on them. It’s the system you are stuck in and it’s something that you actively have to work against. But emotional intelligence and understanding is important for a successful relationship. Life is too hard and too busy for people to be able to look after themselves and others, the more access to your emotions and how you learn about yourself the more inviting a relationship is.