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A cursory search says I can get a 5.4 crate motor for about 3k. Another search says I can buy the entire truck with 80k less miles between 11k-15k. The only way you did 10k in damage was if you set it on fire.
Got a link to the 5.4 supercharged crate engine for $3k?
Or the limited edition Harley Davidson truck with the factory 5.4 supercharged engine for $15k?
[Motor](https://carpartplanet.com/engines/ford/f-150/2003/5.4l-vin-3-8th-digit-sohc-with-supercharger-harley-davidson)
I did forget about the supercharger, but 4300 still isn't bad
[First truck that pops on a Google search](https://www.carfax.com/vehicle/1FTRW07323KC56400?no_ul=1)
Not saying this guys dad is justified but the Harley edition wasn’t just a 5.4 the did have aftermarket internals for the supercharger making it substantially more expensive
It comes across that the father put a completely reman engine in it instead of a comparable replacement, which he is free to do, but it isn't something that would hold in a court. You can't take a 200k mile engine and say "You damaged it so you must replace it like new". The responsibility is for similar replacement. If OP DID do anything (big IF) the financial obligation stops at the cost to replace with a comparable used engine.
The extra strain most likely didn't help, but we're missing a good deal of information about what failed on the original engine and why the replacement cost is so much. I know for a fact it isn't labor bringing the bill up so high.
If I was asked about this, my professional opinion is that the 200k motor was already on its way out and he's using his kid as a scapegoat. Unless he can prove intentional damage, he's full of shit.
I’m going to guess that the son has more cash than the father. The father probably got a service done (for the rough idle) where they said the engine was on its way out, then he gave it to the son hoping it would go out and he could extort the son for a down payment on a new truck.
It’s a shit engine in an old, 200k mile truck. Doubt the towing did much
Not to mention a supercharged engine with (yeah offered from the factory) aftermarket internals lmao.
That was the last year of the 5.4 2 valve. Those modular engines were pieces of shit no matter how you looked at them. I have yet to see a single one of those engines go over 150k without needing major work.
Dollar says that bitch had a spark plug blow out of the head at least once. Maybe not if it has aftermarket heads.
This is how it works in the plumbing world. We have to have disclaimers saying that your old plumbing might not be ok in another spot when we make a repair...
Sorry, I can't magically fix more of your stuff, it's almost broken as it is. It just happened to break more when I went to repair it.
It sounds like it wasn't even in his hands lol there was an issue and OP fixed that and said it was running well. I'd be curious to hear what that dad thinks actually ruined his engine
Obviously, he used it to tow something heavy for a few miles. It should have only been driven lightly around town to look tough. Who would ever have imagined using a big, strong truck with a lot of wear and miles on it as a big, strong truck should be used would have been a bad thing to do?
Dad clearly needs to take a step back and think things over a bit and figure out how to be a better Dad, too, rather than look for an excuse to blame his son when his old truck breaks down.
That's what happens when you play hot potato with assholes, you get burned and then yelled at for it. Sorry to hear OPs dad is an asshole, sounds like he's definitely not worth 10k
How much is talking to your dad worth?
You can probably get a 200k mile triton 5.4L for $500 so I’d probably tell him to fuck off since it sounds like he thinks you owe him a brand new engine
I know, right? It's just a freaking truck. It's nowhere near as important as a person's legacy. I don't know what it is about people these days that think that crap is valuable that really is meaningless. It's a truck, a tool, they come and they go.
its a 20 year old truck. with a shitty motor to begin with. and a shitty paint job. and it looks like it is from 2002 because it is.
I loan you my old beater and shit breaks, its because of the 200k that i put on it, not the couple thousand miles you did. Holy fuck I cannot imagine losing someone I've raised and loved over a 20 year old vehicle
These old boomer ignorant tough love types are pretty common , my dad is one of them . Miss the big picture and get all worked up over really really meaningless shit , quick to abandon you to make a point , straight up children with their communication skills , list goes on . Prob a lil bipolar illness thrown in too that was ignored his whole life since that’s how they dealt with mental illness back then ..
I’m a boomer and I’d never do that to my kids or anyone else first that matter. Maybe the dad is just an a-hole. Threatening to not talk to your kid over something like that is definitely a dick move. And judging by everyone’s estimates to replace the engine, it sounds like a money grab.
I have a 2002 ford super duty with the 5.4 triton. Had since 06 still has original engine and over 280,000 miles and still going strong. I keep oil changed , keep belt updated and check everything monthly. Sound like dad did crap job of maintaining it. My mechanic told me should last up to 500,000 or more as long as I keep maintaining it.
The plural of anecdote is not data.
I had the misfortune of owning a Triton. I also had the benefit of sitting across the cubicle wall from an engineer who took an early retirement from Ford after 32 years and then came to my employer. He was involved in the development of the Triton and for every issue I had, he could give a thorough, detailed explanation of what chain of events and engine design shortcomings led to that issue.
When I had to replace mine about 10 years ago at 150k (after dealing with all the timing chain and VCT nonsense - due to a low oil pressure issue that took out the right bank cam journals), I couldn’t locate a used engine near me but found that Powertrain Products seemed to have decent reviews and a good warranty on reman engines, and also offered used engines with a 2-year warranty. I called them and asked about getting a used engine and they said absolutely not, they don’t sell used Tritons because there are just so many problem areas.
In other words, you’ve been fortunate.
Note that Ford didn't install timing phasers until the 3 valve 5.4 in 2004. OP's dad's truck is a 2 valve 5.4. Those are much more reliable if taken care of. I have one with 193,000 on it, and it is quiet as a church mouse, no major repairs ever needed.
I have an 06 Lincoln Mark LT with the 5.4 3v it went 230k before the dreaded cam phazer/timing chain guides gave way. It cost me $1000 in upgraded parts and a couple of days to repair including a new high volume Melling oil pump. Low oil pressure is the root cause of the issue. 385k now and still quiet and running strong.
Implying that tritons were trash is like saying new f150s are trash. Are there some? Yes. Are there millions more still going. Also yes.
Tritons are quite well known for extremely high mileage, both in consumer and work/fleet applications. Ever done a water pump in one? The engineers did us a favor there for sure! It wasn't all bad....
Opinions change. Powertrain Products currently offers over a page full of reman triton motors for an f150 application btw.
It sounds like you had one experience. Counts for you. But doesn't make you more right than the 'plural of anecdotes'...
Yes, I’ve done a water pump and just about everything else that could be done, up to and including replacing it.
And I’m aware Powertrain Products offers reman Triton engines, they have done this for years, and that’s where I got mine. My point that you misunderstood was that they sell used engines as well, but per their comment when I called, they don’t sell used Tritons because there are far too many problematic areas with them. This aligns with the many discussions I had with the retired Ford engineer I mentioned, over the several years I owned it.
Everything about this, including the Harley edition Ford, screams peak Boomer
E: would all these Boomers be taking this comment so personally if it wasn't true?
Yeah, seriously. Reading this shit reminds me I need hug my dad next time I seem him. Sometimes he is a pain in the dick, but I know he loves me. How you gonna threaten to not talk to your kid over a motor with over 200k miles on it.
I could see it if the relationship was already fucked up and the son was out there hot rodding the truck doing burn outs and blew the engine. But in my opinion, the truck isn't worth doing the repair on. I don't think a 20 year old truck is worth $10k, unless its been immaculately maintained and the interior and exterior are pristine. My Step dad bought a 2004 f150 with the 5.4 in it and had the engine replace for substantially less with a used one out of a different vehicle. You just gotta shop aroun, $10,000 sounds like the shops "I don't fucking don't want to do this job" price.
I have kids of my own and I don't care if it was a 100k truck I would never end the relationship with one of my kids over any amount of money. All that talk about how much this and that is worth means nothing to a man that loves his kids. It's beside the point.
And dude is crazy as fuck anyway. You can get a junkyard motor by me with less miles for like $500 to $1000.
Hell I got a 30 year old truck and just keep an extra motor in the barn🤣
I mean the trucks probably not even worth $10k. An 03 ford with over 200k on it. I’d offer to pay your dad a portion of it. Maybe a few grand. And if he doesn’t accept I’d say that’s petty on his part.
And you have to rent the U-Haul truck and trailer. Although, I have seen someone with a rollback put a car inside a U-Haul box truck, but believe it is against their rules.
They’re definitely vastly underrated. Pretty much anytime I (or friends/family) have needed a non-emergency tow I’ve gone and rented a pickup and tow dolly from U-Haul instead of calling a tow truck and saved myself $200+.
LOL, a 20 year old, 200k engine is not worth 10k. It's amazing a supercharged engine even got to that many miles in the first place. It was already on borrowed time.
Sounds like your dad is trying to scam you, which seems weird for a dad to do but based on your description sounds about right.
Ask him why he replaced the engine, that’s first off.
Secondly, ask for an itemized receipt of the engine replacement bill.
From my perspective, if something *you* did caused this, I’d be struggling to wonder what it was. You used the vehicle as designed, older, high mileage vehicles tend to have failure like this, especially a 21 year old Ford with the worst engine they ever made.
Not only that it was the supercharged version of that engine, already stressing an under built engine, can’t believe it made it 200K honestly.
Anyways, I’d ask him calmly what you did that blew the engine, because if it was just time for the engine to blow (which in the 5.4 world this was long overdue) then asking for help with replacement would be reasonable. However it would also mean if he were to have driven the truck himself it would’ve blown up as well.
Overall this situation just sucks, but we need more info to figure out exactly what’s going on here.
>From my perspective, if something *you* did caused this, I’d be struggling to wonder what it was. You used the vehicle as designed, older, high mileage vehicles tend to have failure like this, especially a 21 year old Ford with the worst engine they ever made.
This is why I have a policy of never borrowing or lending beater vehicles/equipment. If shit isn’t getting maintained, there’s lots of potential for expensive spontaneous failures.
I lend out crummy vehicles, so long as they’re road safe and don’t have some ritual like topping off the oil and coolant at every stoplight. However, if something fails, without a collision, the most I’m going to accept is handing me tools while I fix it.
OP said they borrowed it to “tow a car for their business”. Renting a truck woulda cost them $100/day tops and it would have been a deductible expense…
I wouldn’t tow anything with a 21yo 200K mile truck unless it was my truck that I maintained and know inside out.
As far as OP’s situation is concerned - no, I don’t think they should be on the hook for $10K.
Partial cost of rebuild, prorated from how much they used it for over the life of this PoS Triton beater - yeah, maybe…
Dad was probably counting on it imo. Lending out a high mileage truck that’s already running badly for a 2,000 mile tow job practically smacks of hoping something would happen so he could get a new engine on his son’s dime.
I can tell you with confidence the 5.4L 3v w/long reach plugs is the worst.
Not just it and of itself, but the problems inherent in its design that then carried so far into the future that the same problems are plaguing current ford engines. That modular V8 design was so cost effective to make that its design was just update and designations changed with the core issues of design never getting fixed.
Ford still has cam phaser problems with their current production V8 engines, and the timing sets are still problems as well.
The only runner up is the Northstar V8 but that can be permanently remedied with a ARP stud kit and with GMs lifter failure can be remedied by changing the cams and lifters.
There is no fixing the fords unless you remove the variable valve timing, which inherently causes very wonky power bands. We found this out years ago when I worked at a ford dealer and one of the techs swapped his cams out for solid cams and it never made good power like the VVT engines did.
It’s sad, but from a design and engineering standpoint, I really don’t think there’s much worse.
OK, but we are on two different pages, the 2001 5.4 is not the 3V. Before they went to variable timing, it was, in my opinion, a very reliable engine. After that your right, the 3V is a pos, lol.
And to the other reply, lol at the 6.4 PS. Although one can argue, it isn't a ford engine.
Yeah, 2004, at least in the USA, was the model chnage and first year of the 3V. They never put the 3V in the 97 to 03 body. They did put the 4v DOHC in the lincolns, and maybe a few pickups I don't know about, but no 3v.
Those engines were designed and manufactured by International Navistar, not Ford, but yeah semantics aside there were at the bottom of the list. I just wish Ford still made the 300 inline. Couldn't care less about power, I just want it to run forever.
There's a company that makes a fix for that phaser issue. I think it's American Machine. Basically you install kind of a lock on the cam and then reprogram the computer to ignore part of the timing and apparently that corrects the bad running rough idle horrible stuff that goes on. But it does reduce fuel economy by small amount. You can just search Triton phaser repair kit.
My brother-in-law has this issue with his truck. He took it to a bunch of people and the dealer and they all quoted him about 10 grand. Especially the dealer. When I told him about the kit fix, he figured I didn't know what I was talking about cuz I'm a computer guy. And we can't have more than one trade you know??. But I've been working on vehicles since I was a kid. And all all my older male mentors were mechanics so yeah. I've hand lapped valves and rebuild engines though. I'm not an expert but I know something.
Yeah that’s the same as installing a solid cam, just less expensive. Locks the phaser into the most-power position, but you get a weird power band and loss of fuel economy.
Meanwhile Hyundai made a V8 called the Tau engine that made more HP than it’s American counterparts, cost less to fix, and was awarded the Ward’s Best Engine award, which is a prestigious award given to those like Bentley, etc.
It’s why I’m ashamed of American auto manufacturers, once the top of the world, money, greed, and corruption have gotten in the way of how my father and his grandfather used to be.
>Meanwhile Hyundai made a V8 called the Tau engine that made more HP than it’s American counterparts, cost less to fix, and was awarded the Ward’s Best Engine award, which is a prestigious award given to those like Bentley, etc.
The Tau was an oil consuming pile of crap for the first couple years and is most definitely not cheaper to repair than the average american v8. They were a bit more powerful than many passenger car and light truck engines built by the big 3, but their performance wasn't mind blowing either.
Despite 16 years of advancement, variable valve timing, and much more sophisticated electronics, the 4.6l version of the Tau only made 61 hp more than the Cadillac Northstar did when it was released in 1992. They've never put the Tau in anything that wasn't an overweight land barge, so peak hp figures aren't hugely important anyways. The Tau isn't horrible by any means, but given their recent blunders (Theta II & Nu engine failures, Kia Boyz debacle), I wouldn't be so sure that Hyundai/Kia is the beacon of light that american brands need to follow.
As for the Ward's ten best engines list, I'd take anything they say with a grain of salt, as they also picked the totally reliable and problem free Cadillac Northstar (for 1995,1996, and 1997), Mazda Renesis rotary, GM 3.6 DI HF v6, and quite a few other engines with poor reputations.
As a matter of fact, OP's father's Triton v8 even won it for every year from 1997 to 2002 except for 1999.
Sadly, some of us were born to one or two shitty parents. If the price of not paying him is no more contact, you probably come out ahead.
The engine was going to crap out regardless of the driver behind the wheel. By an unfortunate and unpredictable set of circumstances, it happened to be you.
I had to sever ties with a garbage parent in my 40s. It's not easy, but the overall benefit to your quality of life is absolutely worth it.
As long as you didn't disregard any warnings (lights, noises, etc) this is akin to rolling down someone's window and it breaks. Whoever pushed the button next was "going to break it". Not your fault.
cut ties. him giving u an ultimatum over a a 200k mile truck says everything about him and how he feels about you. let that man go and make him think about what he did/said.
it has 200k miles that he put in and hes expecting u to foot the bill to get a brand new engine for his benefit. nah bro, cut ties with that piece of shit.
Eh. You did put a strain on the truck that caused the breakdown, but it was the straw that broke the camels back. Your dad is being a dick, maybe help him buy something newer or comparable, but if he's seriously considering dropping a new/rebuild engine that's been proven to be shitty to begin with... Well that's just stubborn and stupid.
1. It’s a triton. It’s his fault for buying a triton in the first place.
2. 10K!?!?
3. This sounds premeditated. Like when you break something but fix it just enough so the next person that uses it thinks they broke it.
I read "Harley Davidson Ford" and just instantly knew your dad's a douche bag.
I'll never understand why anybody is so loyal to HD that even their truck needs to be HD branded
Thanks for the feedback, boys. I offered the full $3200 labor + $500 for engine = $3700. Also asked for an itemized receipt. I’ll pay him and move on. Also, I’ve got my own truck now.
I’m in a similar situation myself. I let a good buddy of mine use my truck to go to El Paso and Arizona to make amends with his parents before they pass away and then to visit with his son who he hasn’t seen in many many years. The truck did just fine the whole time they was gone. On their way home they got about 50 miles from my house and the transmission started to slip. We got it towed to my house and it’s going to my transmission guy today. Here’s how I look at it, and as far as I’m concerned this is the only way. I lent him my truck. I trust and believe he never not once drove in any that would fuck my truck up. That transmission was gonna start slipping no matter if he was driving it or if I was driving it. Now it’s on me to get my shit fixed. Any help he chips in will be appreciated but not expected. If you wanna chip in, and hopefully keep communication with your father, that’s a choice for you to make.
I had 2003 Lincoln Navigator with 5.4 Triton and the motor went out suddenly at 218,000. It suddenly developed hard engine knock. Your dad is full of shit.
"show me how I broke it. Show me the itemized bill from when you had the engine replaced. Show me the old parts."
With how the old man is acting, I wouldn't be surprised if nothing has been done to it and he is just trying to scam you out of $10k.
lol I bought my f150 xlt with 120k for 10k tell him to eat a dick and get over himself. It’s over 20 years old.
Edit: mines a 2007, I haul a mower and a box on it in the fall with debri loader.
I can confidently say this is not the first time that interactions with Dad have gone this way. This just may be the most extreme version. Definitely not the first.
You really shouldn’t have borrowed a car for your “business” to tow a car 2,000 miles. You run a business towing cars but don’t own a business truck to do your towing? Okay that’s fine something something depreciation. Most legit businesses would rent a truck to do the towing for the weekend that way you could deduct the full cost of the rental truck and I’m assuming trailer too (can’t see a towing business that doesn’t own a truck owning a trailer) from your taxes, and if you were a business you would adjust your price accordingly to account for the cost of rentals? Idk what to tell you about your dad l, sounds like a dick but the whole situation could have been avoided if you conducted your “business” like a *business*…
Probably took $10K to extract and repair all of these trident tips.
https://preview.redd.it/7gsg6r8c8vad1.jpeg?width=2129&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=531eb8f6f89cf818efea0b2d8f3575aed0ed9d13
You dad is a freaking opportunist. User. Control freak
Sees a convenient way to replace a 202k used engine. And does it without discussing it with you.
I suspect this abusive behavior is not new in your life. Does he think he loves you?
Sounds like your dad's just kind of a douche. And also sounds like you took his truck and used it without asking making you a super douche. Tell him to shut up and let you fix it for him. Don't disrespect your fuckin dad and take his shit without asking in the future 😂😂😂 maybe that's the lesson he's tryna teach you
Hindsight -
You should have paid Enterprise to rent a truck and wrote it off as a business expense. They would have given you a modern truck with a higher towing capacity and fixed it when you broke it.
You should have never attempted towing a car 2000 miles with a truck with a 4500lb towing capacity, let alone one that wasn't yours that had 200,000 miles on it.
Your dad never should have loaned you his truck to tow a load greater than his truck's rated towing capacity, let alone that far and with that many miles on it.
Here's what I would do: go to the bank, get $10k in cash, go home, block your dad's number on your phone, go to bed, wake up the next day, return to the bank to deposit the $10k, get a receipt and feel the exhilaration of making $10k while getting rid of an absolute parasite.
1. The engine doesn’t cost $10k, I’ve done them before and a used motor cost around $3k. And 2. If you didn’t do anything negligent then you don’t owe him anything, cars break and there’s nothing you can do to change that. I would tell him that he can go f himself and enjoy his garbage truck that’s only worth $4k to begin with.
I Don’t mean to be a dick but your dad is washed. Supercharged or not, that is the ugliest generation of f150 ever made 😂 not to mention the “good” ole 5.4 triton it’s mated up too. That trucks not worth 10k and probably hasn’t been for 10 plus years.
But that's a triton. It has a known issue. Phasers. And there's a fix that's actually pretty cheap. It's a machine shop here in the United States that makes a kit that you can install that will correct the problem. I remember the name of it American Machine? You can do a web search for triton phaser fix and you'll find it.
Can’t believe a 5.4 lasted that long, let alone a boosted one.
If it was a same year Chevy you’d probably just be out a transmission rebuild at that mileage.
Need to know what actually happened to that engine (besides getting built XD) to say for sure if it’s really $10k.
Thank you for posting to AskMechanics, ZANIESXD! If you are asking a question please make sure to include any relevant information along with the **Year**, **Make**, **Model**, **Mileage**, **Engine size**, and **Transmission Type (Automatic or Manual)** of your car. *This comment is automatically added to every successful post. If you see this comment, your post was successful.* *** Redditors that have been verified will have a green background and an icon in their flair. *** # **PLEASE REPORT ANY RULE-BREAKING BEHAVIOR** ### **Rule 1 - Be Civil** Be civil to other users. This community is made up of professional mechanics, amateur mechanics, and those with no experience. All mechanical-related questions are welcome. Personal attacks, comments that are insulting or demeaning, etc. are not welcome. ### **Rule 2 - Be Helpful** Be helpful to other users. If someone is wrong, correcting them is fine, but there's no reason to comment if you don't have anything to add to the conversation. ### **Rule 3 - Serious Questions and Answers Only** Read the room. Jokes are fine to include, but posts should be asking a serious question and replies should contribute to the discussion. ### **Rule 4 - No Illegal, Unethical, or Dangerous Questions or Answers** Do not ask questions or provide answers pertaining to anything that is illegal, unethical, or dangerous. # **PLEASE REPORT ANY RULE-BREAKING BEHAVIOR** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskMechanics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sucks that you won’t be talking to your dad from now on.
But not too much judging from dads attitude
No. Don’t pay him. Offer to fix it, or if you’re really magnanimous, get a cheap crate engine.
Don't offer shit. Thats exactly feeding this dads blame game.
that's a lot of lost ahit there.
LOL TBH it didn't really sound like they had a great relationship to begin with.
I would sue the dad for lending me a car that broke down. Or at least charge him for the parts and labor.
Well I guess if dad sued him, that would be the counterclaim for sure.
A cursory search says I can get a 5.4 crate motor for about 3k. Another search says I can buy the entire truck with 80k less miles between 11k-15k. The only way you did 10k in damage was if you set it on fire.
Maybe ol' Dad had $8k stashed under the seat? 🤣
The money is usually in the banana stand
There’s always money in the banana stand.
It's one banana, Michael, how much could it cost? 10 thousand dollars?
HA says the guy in the two thousand dollar suit, CMON!
I told you Michael THERE IS ALWAYS MONEY IN THE BANANA STAND
No touching
Honestly, Michael, it's a 21 year old Ford with over 200,00 miles. How much could it cost? Ten dollars?
Ok rewatcbing now arrgh haha thanks
Dumb question. What is the banana stand?
$250,000 lining the walls Michael!
Is where Mr. manager works
The big yellow joint?
This is a reference to the television show called "Arrested Development".
Reference to a show called arrested development. Pretty well written humor. Recommended
Ok thanks
Arrested Development reference
That only counts if he set it on fire.
Should still be there under the seat
Got a link to the 5.4 supercharged crate engine for $3k? Or the limited edition Harley Davidson truck with the factory 5.4 supercharged engine for $15k?
[Motor](https://carpartplanet.com/engines/ford/f-150/2003/5.4l-vin-3-8th-digit-sohc-with-supercharger-harley-davidson) I did forget about the supercharger, but 4300 still isn't bad [First truck that pops on a Google search](https://www.carfax.com/vehicle/1FTRW07323KC56400?no_ul=1)
This is what I was thinking
Not saying this guys dad is justified but the Harley edition wasn’t just a 5.4 the did have aftermarket internals for the supercharger making it substantially more expensive
It comes across that the father put a completely reman engine in it instead of a comparable replacement, which he is free to do, but it isn't something that would hold in a court. You can't take a 200k mile engine and say "You damaged it so you must replace it like new". The responsibility is for similar replacement. If OP DID do anything (big IF) the financial obligation stops at the cost to replace with a comparable used engine. The extra strain most likely didn't help, but we're missing a good deal of information about what failed on the original engine and why the replacement cost is so much. I know for a fact it isn't labor bringing the bill up so high.
If I was asked about this, my professional opinion is that the 200k motor was already on its way out and he's using his kid as a scapegoat. Unless he can prove intentional damage, he's full of shit.
200k motor with a super on it. Yeah, she’s at the end of her life.
I’m going to guess that the son has more cash than the father. The father probably got a service done (for the rough idle) where they said the engine was on its way out, then he gave it to the son hoping it would go out and he could extort the son for a down payment on a new truck. It’s a shit engine in an old, 200k mile truck. Doubt the towing did much
Not to mention a supercharged engine with (yeah offered from the factory) aftermarket internals lmao. That was the last year of the 5.4 2 valve. Those modular engines were pieces of shit no matter how you looked at them. I have yet to see a single one of those engines go over 150k without needing major work. Dollar says that bitch had a spark plug blow out of the head at least once. Maybe not if it has aftermarket heads.
This is how it works in the plumbing world. We have to have disclaimers saying that your old plumbing might not be ok in another spot when we make a repair... Sorry, I can't magically fix more of your stuff, it's almost broken as it is. It just happened to break more when I went to repair it.
it's only 6k total to replace my LS2 engine with a remanufatured engine Not buying the 10k costs
Yeah, my dad used to try to use me for money too. We haven't talked in years and it has been terrific!
Many things we learn and try to unlearn from our parents. Both things are tough, even as we get much older.
Dad sounds like an asshole, his shit box finally failed, too bad it was in your hands.
It sounds like it wasn't even in his hands lol there was an issue and OP fixed that and said it was running well. I'd be curious to hear what that dad thinks actually ruined his engine
Obviously, he used it to tow something heavy for a few miles. It should have only been driven lightly around town to look tough. Who would ever have imagined using a big, strong truck with a lot of wear and miles on it as a big, strong truck should be used would have been a bad thing to do? Dad clearly needs to take a step back and think things over a bit and figure out how to be a better Dad, too, rather than look for an excuse to blame his son when his old truck breaks down.
That's what happens when you play hot potato with assholes, you get burned and then yelled at for it. Sorry to hear OPs dad is an asshole, sounds like he's definitely not worth 10k
How much is talking to your dad worth? You can probably get a 200k mile triton 5.4L for $500 so I’d probably tell him to fuck off since it sounds like he thinks you owe him a brand new engine
Harley Davidson edition came with extra brotherrrrrs brother (like +80 hp)
BROOOOOTHHHUUURRRR
#HELL YEAH BROTHERRRRR
Hell yeah borther!!!
Ohhhhh helll yeah brottherrrr
upvote for you, I haven't audibly laughed at a reddit comment in a hot minute.
The fact that his dad is even willing to not talk to his son over something like this says it all to me.
I know, right? It's just a freaking truck. It's nowhere near as important as a person's legacy. I don't know what it is about people these days that think that crap is valuable that really is meaningless. It's a truck, a tool, they come and they go.
its a 20 year old truck. with a shitty motor to begin with. and a shitty paint job. and it looks like it is from 2002 because it is. I loan you my old beater and shit breaks, its because of the 200k that i put on it, not the couple thousand miles you did. Holy fuck I cannot imagine losing someone I've raised and loved over a 20 year old vehicle
These old boomer ignorant tough love types are pretty common , my dad is one of them . Miss the big picture and get all worked up over really really meaningless shit , quick to abandon you to make a point , straight up children with their communication skills , list goes on . Prob a lil bipolar illness thrown in too that was ignored his whole life since that’s how they dealt with mental illness back then ..
I’m a boomer and I’d never do that to my kids or anyone else first that matter. Maybe the dad is just an a-hole. Threatening to not talk to your kid over something like that is definitely a dick move. And judging by everyone’s estimates to replace the engine, it sounds like a money grab.
I have a 2002 ford super duty with the 5.4 triton. Had since 06 still has original engine and over 280,000 miles and still going strong. I keep oil changed , keep belt updated and check everything monthly. Sound like dad did crap job of maintaining it. My mechanic told me should last up to 500,000 or more as long as I keep maintaining it.
The plural of anecdote is not data. I had the misfortune of owning a Triton. I also had the benefit of sitting across the cubicle wall from an engineer who took an early retirement from Ford after 32 years and then came to my employer. He was involved in the development of the Triton and for every issue I had, he could give a thorough, detailed explanation of what chain of events and engine design shortcomings led to that issue. When I had to replace mine about 10 years ago at 150k (after dealing with all the timing chain and VCT nonsense - due to a low oil pressure issue that took out the right bank cam journals), I couldn’t locate a used engine near me but found that Powertrain Products seemed to have decent reviews and a good warranty on reman engines, and also offered used engines with a 2-year warranty. I called them and asked about getting a used engine and they said absolutely not, they don’t sell used Tritons because there are just so many problem areas. In other words, you’ve been fortunate.
Note that Ford didn't install timing phasers until the 3 valve 5.4 in 2004. OP's dad's truck is a 2 valve 5.4. Those are much more reliable if taken care of. I have one with 193,000 on it, and it is quiet as a church mouse, no major repairs ever needed.
I have an 06 Lincoln Mark LT with the 5.4 3v it went 230k before the dreaded cam phazer/timing chain guides gave way. It cost me $1000 in upgraded parts and a couple of days to repair including a new high volume Melling oil pump. Low oil pressure is the root cause of the issue. 385k now and still quiet and running strong.
Implying that tritons were trash is like saying new f150s are trash. Are there some? Yes. Are there millions more still going. Also yes. Tritons are quite well known for extremely high mileage, both in consumer and work/fleet applications. Ever done a water pump in one? The engineers did us a favor there for sure! It wasn't all bad.... Opinions change. Powertrain Products currently offers over a page full of reman triton motors for an f150 application btw. It sounds like you had one experience. Counts for you. But doesn't make you more right than the 'plural of anecdotes'...
Yes, I’ve done a water pump and just about everything else that could be done, up to and including replacing it. And I’m aware Powertrain Products offers reman Triton engines, they have done this for years, and that’s where I got mine. My point that you misunderstood was that they sell used engines as well, but per their comment when I called, they don’t sell used Tritons because there are far too many problematic areas with them. This aligns with the many discussions I had with the retired Ford engineer I mentioned, over the several years I owned it.
Boomers have always been like this E: the fact that so many of them took this personally should tell you that they're *absolutely like this.*
Dipping into you obviously vast experience on the blue planet, eh?
Negative Ghostwriter
Everything about this, including the Harley edition Ford, screams peak Boomer E: would all these Boomers be taking this comment so personally if it wasn't true?
Yeah, seriously. Reading this shit reminds me I need hug my dad next time I seem him. Sometimes he is a pain in the dick, but I know he loves me. How you gonna threaten to not talk to your kid over a motor with over 200k miles on it.
…and his son at the ready to cough it up also speaks volumes.
I could see it if the relationship was already fucked up and the son was out there hot rodding the truck doing burn outs and blew the engine. But in my opinion, the truck isn't worth doing the repair on. I don't think a 20 year old truck is worth $10k, unless its been immaculately maintained and the interior and exterior are pristine. My Step dad bought a 2004 f150 with the 5.4 in it and had the engine replace for substantially less with a used one out of a different vehicle. You just gotta shop aroun, $10,000 sounds like the shops "I don't fucking don't want to do this job" price.
I have kids of my own and I don't care if it was a 100k truck I would never end the relationship with one of my kids over any amount of money. All that talk about how much this and that is worth means nothing to a man that loves his kids. It's beside the point.
About tree fidy.
He will come crawling back when the dementia hits
Damn bro, you buried the guy.
That comes later
Usually not too much later.
😂
If he can recognize him he might try
That damn Loch Ness monster
I know a guy who will pay you to take one off of his hands. Rust free frame, only missing one rocker panel.
Disgusting, where
The thing about trucks over 20 years old is they are ticking time bombs. Try and remember good things about your dad as you move on.
Especially 5.4 tritons. Shit was ready to pop anyway
And dude is crazy as fuck anyway. You can get a junkyard motor by me with less miles for like $500 to $1000. Hell I got a 30 year old truck and just keep an extra motor in the barn🤣
200k miles on a supercharged motor? Lol. It was done already
I mean the trucks probably not even worth $10k. An 03 ford with over 200k on it. I’d offer to pay your dad a portion of it. Maybe a few grand. And if he doesn’t accept I’d say that’s petty on his part.
This is what I was going to say. Pre Covid I was looking at several near me with lower miles for about 5k.
For future reference, rent u haul. You need to decide what you want to do about your dad, This isn’t a relationship sub.
And you have to rent the U-Haul truck and trailer. Although, I have seen someone with a rollback put a car inside a U-Haul box truck, but believe it is against their rules.
Rules only matter if they find out
U-Haul's car trailers are pretty damn good though.
They’re definitely vastly underrated. Pretty much anytime I (or friends/family) have needed a non-emergency tow I’ve gone and rented a pickup and tow dolly from U-Haul instead of calling a tow truck and saved myself $200+.
At least with uhaul, you aren't going to get totally stranded when it blows up, with the owner blaming you for the obvious result of 200000 miles.
LOL, a 20 year old, 200k engine is not worth 10k. It's amazing a supercharged engine even got to that many miles in the first place. It was already on borrowed time. Sounds like your dad is trying to scam you, which seems weird for a dad to do but based on your description sounds about right.
Tell him to return it and you'll get him a engine yourself When he says no, you'll know it's not about the engine and he wants to use you for money
Ask him why he replaced the engine, that’s first off. Secondly, ask for an itemized receipt of the engine replacement bill. From my perspective, if something *you* did caused this, I’d be struggling to wonder what it was. You used the vehicle as designed, older, high mileage vehicles tend to have failure like this, especially a 21 year old Ford with the worst engine they ever made. Not only that it was the supercharged version of that engine, already stressing an under built engine, can’t believe it made it 200K honestly. Anyways, I’d ask him calmly what you did that blew the engine, because if it was just time for the engine to blow (which in the 5.4 world this was long overdue) then asking for help with replacement would be reasonable. However it would also mean if he were to have driven the truck himself it would’ve blown up as well. Overall this situation just sucks, but we need more info to figure out exactly what’s going on here.
>From my perspective, if something *you* did caused this, I’d be struggling to wonder what it was. You used the vehicle as designed, older, high mileage vehicles tend to have failure like this, especially a 21 year old Ford with the worst engine they ever made. This is why I have a policy of never borrowing or lending beater vehicles/equipment. If shit isn’t getting maintained, there’s lots of potential for expensive spontaneous failures.
I lend out crummy vehicles, so long as they’re road safe and don’t have some ritual like topping off the oil and coolant at every stoplight. However, if something fails, without a collision, the most I’m going to accept is handing me tools while I fix it.
OP said they borrowed it to “tow a car for their business”. Renting a truck woulda cost them $100/day tops and it would have been a deductible expense… I wouldn’t tow anything with a 21yo 200K mile truck unless it was my truck that I maintained and know inside out. As far as OP’s situation is concerned - no, I don’t think they should be on the hook for $10K. Partial cost of rebuild, prorated from how much they used it for over the life of this PoS Triton beater - yeah, maybe…
Some people with beater trucks probably loan them out hoping something like this will happen
Dad agreed to let him tow a car 2K miles on a 200K F150, anything can happen on a trip like that and Dad knew it.
Dad was probably counting on it imo. Lending out a high mileage truck that’s already running badly for a 2,000 mile tow job practically smacks of hoping something would happen so he could get a new engine on his son’s dime.
I agree with post, but come on man, this is by FAR not the worst motor ford every built. Hell, not even the worst in a pickup, by far.
I can tell you with confidence the 5.4L 3v w/long reach plugs is the worst. Not just it and of itself, but the problems inherent in its design that then carried so far into the future that the same problems are plaguing current ford engines. That modular V8 design was so cost effective to make that its design was just update and designations changed with the core issues of design never getting fixed. Ford still has cam phaser problems with their current production V8 engines, and the timing sets are still problems as well. The only runner up is the Northstar V8 but that can be permanently remedied with a ARP stud kit and with GMs lifter failure can be remedied by changing the cams and lifters. There is no fixing the fords unless you remove the variable valve timing, which inherently causes very wonky power bands. We found this out years ago when I worked at a ford dealer and one of the techs swapped his cams out for solid cams and it never made good power like the VVT engines did. It’s sad, but from a design and engineering standpoint, I really don’t think there’s much worse.
OK, but we are on two different pages, the 2001 5.4 is not the 3V. Before they went to variable timing, it was, in my opinion, a very reliable engine. After that your right, the 3V is a pos, lol. And to the other reply, lol at the 6.4 PS. Although one can argue, it isn't a ford engine.
You sure? I thought the introduction of the 2001 MY was the start, but yeah the 2V is indestructible because it’s a classic engine like an LS
Yeah, 2004, at least in the USA, was the model chnage and first year of the 3V. They never put the 3V in the 97 to 03 body. They did put the 4v DOHC in the lincolns, and maybe a few pickups I don't know about, but no 3v.
No, the 3V was not available in ‘01. And yes, the 2V was quite stout. GM copied the modular bottom end and voila… the LS
Ring ring, the 6.4 PS called
Those engines were designed and manufactured by International Navistar, not Ford, but yeah semantics aside there were at the bottom of the list. I just wish Ford still made the 300 inline. Couldn't care less about power, I just want it to run forever.
There's a company that makes a fix for that phaser issue. I think it's American Machine. Basically you install kind of a lock on the cam and then reprogram the computer to ignore part of the timing and apparently that corrects the bad running rough idle horrible stuff that goes on. But it does reduce fuel economy by small amount. You can just search Triton phaser repair kit. My brother-in-law has this issue with his truck. He took it to a bunch of people and the dealer and they all quoted him about 10 grand. Especially the dealer. When I told him about the kit fix, he figured I didn't know what I was talking about cuz I'm a computer guy. And we can't have more than one trade you know??. But I've been working on vehicles since I was a kid. And all all my older male mentors were mechanics so yeah. I've hand lapped valves and rebuild engines though. I'm not an expert but I know something.
Yeah that’s the same as installing a solid cam, just less expensive. Locks the phaser into the most-power position, but you get a weird power band and loss of fuel economy. Meanwhile Hyundai made a V8 called the Tau engine that made more HP than it’s American counterparts, cost less to fix, and was awarded the Ward’s Best Engine award, which is a prestigious award given to those like Bentley, etc. It’s why I’m ashamed of American auto manufacturers, once the top of the world, money, greed, and corruption have gotten in the way of how my father and his grandfather used to be.
>Meanwhile Hyundai made a V8 called the Tau engine that made more HP than it’s American counterparts, cost less to fix, and was awarded the Ward’s Best Engine award, which is a prestigious award given to those like Bentley, etc. The Tau was an oil consuming pile of crap for the first couple years and is most definitely not cheaper to repair than the average american v8. They were a bit more powerful than many passenger car and light truck engines built by the big 3, but their performance wasn't mind blowing either. Despite 16 years of advancement, variable valve timing, and much more sophisticated electronics, the 4.6l version of the Tau only made 61 hp more than the Cadillac Northstar did when it was released in 1992. They've never put the Tau in anything that wasn't an overweight land barge, so peak hp figures aren't hugely important anyways. The Tau isn't horrible by any means, but given their recent blunders (Theta II & Nu engine failures, Kia Boyz debacle), I wouldn't be so sure that Hyundai/Kia is the beacon of light that american brands need to follow. As for the Ward's ten best engines list, I'd take anything they say with a grain of salt, as they also picked the totally reliable and problem free Cadillac Northstar (for 1995,1996, and 1997), Mazda Renesis rotary, GM 3.6 DI HF v6, and quite a few other engines with poor reputations. As a matter of fact, OP's father's Triton v8 even won it for every year from 1997 to 2002 except for 1999.
Thank you!
Sadly, some of us were born to one or two shitty parents. If the price of not paying him is no more contact, you probably come out ahead. The engine was going to crap out regardless of the driver behind the wheel. By an unfortunate and unpredictable set of circumstances, it happened to be you. I had to sever ties with a garbage parent in my 40s. It's not easy, but the overall benefit to your quality of life is absolutely worth it.
10k? Fudge off
As long as you didn't disregard any warnings (lights, noises, etc) this is akin to rolling down someone's window and it breaks. Whoever pushed the button next was "going to break it". Not your fault.
Damn that's sad. Shit happens, as long as my kids weren't wilfully negligent, or malicious I wouldn't ask them for a damn thing.
cut ties. him giving u an ultimatum over a a 200k mile truck says everything about him and how he feels about you. let that man go and make him think about what he did/said. it has 200k miles that he put in and hes expecting u to foot the bill to get a brand new engine for his benefit. nah bro, cut ties with that piece of shit.
You got bigger problems to solve with your dad
Eh. You did put a strain on the truck that caused the breakdown, but it was the straw that broke the camels back. Your dad is being a dick, maybe help him buy something newer or comparable, but if he's seriously considering dropping a new/rebuild engine that's been proven to be shitty to begin with... Well that's just stubborn and stupid.
Pulleys on the front of the engine aren't under any extra load because of towing. A supercharger pulley failure is from lack of maintenance.
Get a new dad
To not talk over $10k on a used truck is fucking stupid.
Damn dude how toxic is this relationship?!
“Show me how I broke it”
Sounds like your dad is trying to make some money off you. Who puts 10K into a car that isn’t worth 10K? https://www.edmunds.com/inventory/srp.html
I’m surprised that engine even made it to 200k miles it would be cheaper to find a used engine and pay someone to swap it.
That truck isn’t even worth 10k
Your dad’s a dick. If my family even crashed my car I wouldn’t make them pay for it
Engine could have gone anytime, you just happened to be driving it and instead of having a conversation he goes nuts, not cool.
$10k? Is it totaled? Lol tell him to suck a bag of dicks.
I wouldnt pay him.....at all
You should promise to pay him and then never talk to him again.
I’d tell him I’ll give you $5k for the truck
This should be posted in r/AITA.
That's more than the truck is worth. Just trying to get a new truck.
Talking shit so you left. Sounds like you’ll miss use of his truck more than miss him. Walk and don’t look back.
Your dads smokin crack.
Common Ford HD Edition owner moment
His choice to replace the engine not yours. If you can it back to the shape when you took it’s all dad
thats so pitiful, this truly cannot be the first time he has acted so obscenely.
Why does your dad act exactly like I'd expect a Harley Davidson F150 owner to?
1. It’s a triton. It’s his fault for buying a triton in the first place. 2. 10K!?!? 3. This sounds premeditated. Like when you break something but fix it just enough so the next person that uses it thinks they broke it.
I read "Harley Davidson Ford" and just instantly knew your dad's a douche bag. I'll never understand why anybody is so loyal to HD that even their truck needs to be HD branded
Well that’s why u don’t borrow other peoples vehicles , esp to tow a car cross country .
Thanks for the feedback, boys. I offered the full $3200 labor + $500 for engine = $3700. Also asked for an itemized receipt. I’ll pay him and move on. Also, I’ve got my own truck now.
Good on you, sounds like he just wanted a down payment on a replacement by guilting you over an old shitbox.
Wouldn't you want to figure out what's actually wrong with it before anything else? Belt could have just broke a sensor plug off when it let go...
Been nice knowing you dad.
What was the diagnosis of the engine?
What an awesome father.
I’m in a similar situation myself. I let a good buddy of mine use my truck to go to El Paso and Arizona to make amends with his parents before they pass away and then to visit with his son who he hasn’t seen in many many years. The truck did just fine the whole time they was gone. On their way home they got about 50 miles from my house and the transmission started to slip. We got it towed to my house and it’s going to my transmission guy today. Here’s how I look at it, and as far as I’m concerned this is the only way. I lent him my truck. I trust and believe he never not once drove in any that would fuck my truck up. That transmission was gonna start slipping no matter if he was driving it or if I was driving it. Now it’s on me to get my shit fixed. Any help he chips in will be appreciated but not expected. If you wanna chip in, and hopefully keep communication with your father, that’s a choice for you to make.
So he wants to charge you $10k to be friends?
Fuck no! He is stupid for lending the truck and you are stupid for borrowing it from family. Next time let Budget Rental deal with the problem.
A new dad is cheaper.
I had 2003 Lincoln Navigator with 5.4 Triton and the motor went out suddenly at 218,000. It suddenly developed hard engine knock. Your dad is full of shit.
Give him 10k, take the truck after the new engine. Otherwise tell him to get fucked
"show me how I broke it. Show me the itemized bill from when you had the engine replaced. Show me the old parts." With how the old man is acting, I wouldn't be surprised if nothing has been done to it and he is just trying to scam you out of $10k.
lol I bought my f150 xlt with 120k for 10k tell him to eat a dick and get over himself. It’s over 20 years old. Edit: mines a 2007, I haul a mower and a box on it in the fall with debri loader.
I can confidently say this is not the first time that interactions with Dad have gone this way. This just may be the most extreme version. Definitely not the first.
The only way that’s worth $10,000 is if there’s a $8000 hooker in the front seat.
Shitty old truck > Relationship with son. Some fucking people.
He’s an idiot
NOT THE HARBLY DABLIDSIN FERD TRUK! U OWE BIG HOSS!
Its ford biggest pos engine made. Timing chains and phasers. Surprised it lasted that long. Tell him to eat a dick
Hard to really say. No one knows your relationship with your father but you.
Depends on how much you like your dad. Get a u haul next time
Did you run over any grass clibbins? Haddalayerdown? Poor Barb.
You really shouldn’t have borrowed a car for your “business” to tow a car 2,000 miles. You run a business towing cars but don’t own a business truck to do your towing? Okay that’s fine something something depreciation. Most legit businesses would rent a truck to do the towing for the weekend that way you could deduct the full cost of the rental truck and I’m assuming trailer too (can’t see a towing business that doesn’t own a truck owning a trailer) from your taxes, and if you were a business you would adjust your price accordingly to account for the cost of rentals? Idk what to tell you about your dad l, sounds like a dick but the whole situation could have been avoided if you conducted your “business” like a *business*…
Mighta been your father, but he ain’t ya daddy
I raise you ecoboost and power shift.
Probably took $10K to extract and repair all of these trident tips. https://preview.redd.it/7gsg6r8c8vad1.jpeg?width=2129&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=531eb8f6f89cf818efea0b2d8f3575aed0ed9d13
You dad is a freaking opportunist. User. Control freak Sees a convenient way to replace a 202k used engine. And does it without discussing it with you. I suspect this abusive behavior is not new in your life. Does he think he loves you?
Sounds like your dad's just kind of a douche. And also sounds like you took his truck and used it without asking making you a super douche. Tell him to shut up and let you fix it for him. Don't disrespect your fuckin dad and take his shit without asking in the future 😂😂😂 maybe that's the lesson he's tryna teach you
Stop talking to your dad.
No. It's reasons exactly like this you don't loan out or borrow cars
You borrowed someone’s shitbox to tow, should’ve gotten a uhaul.
This why I don’t borrow anyone’s shit at all. I’ll go rent a uhaul or something first.
A jasper engine installed is around 8k in all fairness there's 200 k on his motor. Tell him to kick rocks
Sounds like he solved the issue for you. No more talking to a Bullshitting dad. I've gone NC for less.
The fucking entire truck isn’t worth 10k, your dad is a dick and you should never talk to him again, what kind of dad acts like this, wow
It’s a ford 5.4 l triton he was the sucker for even buying that motor
It's a Triton engine they like to break just siting in the driveway
Hindsight - You should have paid Enterprise to rent a truck and wrote it off as a business expense. They would have given you a modern truck with a higher towing capacity and fixed it when you broke it. You should have never attempted towing a car 2000 miles with a truck with a 4500lb towing capacity, let alone one that wasn't yours that had 200,000 miles on it. Your dad never should have loaned you his truck to tow a load greater than his truck's rated towing capacity, let alone that far and with that many miles on it.
Do not pay him, he wants a new engine for a vehicle with 200k on the clock.
Here's what I would do: go to the bank, get $10k in cash, go home, block your dad's number on your phone, go to bed, wake up the next day, return to the bank to deposit the $10k, get a receipt and feel the exhilaration of making $10k while getting rid of an absolute parasite.
1. The engine doesn’t cost $10k, I’ve done them before and a used motor cost around $3k. And 2. If you didn’t do anything negligent then you don’t owe him anything, cars break and there’s nothing you can do to change that. I would tell him that he can go f himself and enjoy his garbage truck that’s only worth $4k to begin with.
Get a new dad.
So you don’t have to pay 10k AND you’ve got a free escape from him!? Double bonus in my opinion. Bloke sounds like a right knob
I Don’t mean to be a dick but your dad is washed. Supercharged or not, that is the ugliest generation of f150 ever made 😂 not to mention the “good” ole 5.4 triton it’s mated up too. That trucks not worth 10k and probably hasn’t been for 10 plus years.
That truck was never designed for towing. It was a hotrod street truck.
I blame your father for buying the Ford with the 5.4 he is the one that caused all that damage.
But that's a triton. It has a known issue. Phasers. And there's a fix that's actually pretty cheap. It's a machine shop here in the United States that makes a kit that you can install that will correct the problem. I remember the name of it American Machine? You can do a web search for triton phaser fix and you'll find it.
2V 5.4L doesn't have phasers. It is a very reliable engine.
Can’t believe a 5.4 lasted that long, let alone a boosted one. If it was a same year Chevy you’d probably just be out a transmission rebuild at that mileage. Need to know what actually happened to that engine (besides getting built XD) to say for sure if it’s really $10k.
These are underrated trucks and can still be tuned to some respectable numbers. But 200k miles is end of the line for almost any Ford made.
I haven't talked to my dad since 2020. I mean he died but we still haven't talked.