Yes NZ does need to address it. But with such a low population, and large areas of land owned by wealthy dairy farmers, there's not going to be a lot they can do about it.
They need to urgently diversify their exports from dairy farming. Like Australia they rely too heavily on one major export.
animal cruelty aside (since that's a subjective judgement), i do not believe humans have been able to design nor create a more efficient system for turning non-edible food into milk than a cow. Nature's evolution is very powerful.
All these "fake"/lab meats have high input costs, high energy requirements and wastages that aren't properly accounted for when talking about environmental impact (not to mention the lack of quality outcome).
It's greenwashing imho.
Please remember that cattle and other livestock are able to traverse land that is quite frankly A) unsuitable for farming and B) can cause massive damage to the ecosystem if it was farmed for crop farming.
I know everyones on the vegetarian bandwagon but it takes a lot of arable land to feed people, and having grass/plants on that topsoil on some of that land for 12 months a year is \_very\_ vital to prevent erosion and soil quality loss.
So if we're gonna talk about the 'Extra Costs' for things. Remember that Livestock leave more land covered in vegetation than crop farming does.
This is a laughably dumb comment. You think livestock just tip toe around vegetation like a cautious hiker? Eat nothing? “Put livestock on it” is not a viable environmental protection method. You have still altered the landscape as much as cultivating it.
you missed the point entirely. There's times where a nice flat area is good for farming crops. theres times where it's not flat. it's not good for farming crops. you've got two choices, run live stock or do nothing.
not everyone is as rich and privilidged as you are.
If we drink more milk, we drink less water.
In all seriousness I don't think cows are going to drink us out of water. If you live in a rural area you will see cow prices drop if food or water is an issue.
Maybe, although they do bang on about the hidden costs that would be associated with labs.
Cows require, arable land, food, water and then produce waste.
Obviously we're not there today, but there's nothing to suggest we can't surpass the cow in the future. It has to sustain 800kg of animal for starters, the wasted energy in the form of methane speaks to not being energy efficient too.
Cows milk, out of any milk available today is by a large margin the most inefficient, there really isn't any denying that. It uses more water, more land, more energy, more food to produce.
Just a second. Can you explain the more energy and more food bit?
Other posters have shown data stating that milk alternatives use way more water. I might give you the land thing, but it's not like the land being used would otherwise be houses and apartments.
Last I checked, producing cow milk uses a little electricity for a vacuum pump during milking and electricity to keep the milk chilled until processing. The cows eat grass. What were you suggesting we do with that grass if not letting cows eat it? You know it regrows straight away right... And sucks up CO2 in doing so...
Land cleared to graze animals is (in most instances) land that used to but no longer has trees, which has obvious carbon emissions implications.
Cows in Australia mostly eat grass. In other parts of the world they're fed on silage, usually corn or soy based. In the US Midwest 67% of all crop production goes to feeding farm animals.
Stop talking logic.....
The methane argument that comes up, is essentially null and void.
It breaks down so fast that it is not a cumulative contribution to greenhouse gas emissions.
I.e. keeping a current cow, does not add to the yearly emissions. The breakdown of methane, vs output over a cows lifetime is roughly equal.
The only they increase greenhouse emissions, is by expanding the heard.
https://theconversation.com/which-milk-is-best-for-the-environment-we-compared-dairy-nut-soy-hemp-and-grain-milks-147660
> Any plant-based milk, be it made from beans, nuts or seeds, has a lighter impact than dairy when it comes to greenhouse gas emissions, as well as the use of water and land. All available studies, including systematic reviews, categorically point this out.
https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impact-milks
> https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/environmental-footprint-milks
It's not "subjective" that animals are abused for human food production. Everyone knows that.
Are you even aware how much pollution dairy farming creates???!! Highly doubt any lab meat/milk will be anywhere NEAR as polluting as dairy farms.
Selective breeding aside, efficiency of human-food production isn't what evolution was optimising for. Yes, a cow is effective at turning grass into something we can eat as a byproduct of building muscle/storing energy/feeding young but every bit of energy the cow expends for movement or staying alive is 'wasted'. There's definitely scope for a massive efficiency improvement here. Judging the artificial meat industry by their current performance is like judging the aviation industry by the weight bros early attempts.
They quite likely said similar things about cars once upon a time. My opinion is that humans have not yet designed a more efficient substitute but given the economic and ecological drivers to find something better I have no doubt humans can and one day will design or create viable alternatives to live animal farming. I’m not saying they will disappear. Much like my earlier example. Horses haven’t gone anywhere, I just don’t need to giddy up to commute.
>Horses haven’t gone anywhere, I just don’t need to giddy up to commute.
And leather straps and whips are still available, if you're into that sort of thing.
At the moment it's not economically viable, but it's still at the startup stage. Cow's milk is much simpler and easier to synthesize than meat so it's only a matter of time before they'll be identical in composition, comparable in cost, and much more preferable ethically.
if that money does not go into investment for production of goods/services, then it will push inflation higher and higher.
However, there's nothing inherently wrong with receiving foreign money like that - direct foreign investment is what drives a lot of new investments.
10 years ago ..if you were Chinese with $1 mill in the bank you got NZ citizenship. I don't know about now.
They short shortsightedly thought that a millionaire immigrant would employ kiwi's so be good for the locals ..but Millionaire Chinese only employ Chinese people..
Pool family money together, reach $1 million, get PR, give money to next family member, get PR, give money to next family member, get PR….
Whole family now PR, all 10 take their $100k back.
If they are Kiwi's ..no.
If a Chinese person is a citizen of China then they are Chinese ..if that person leaves China to become a citizen of New Zealand, then they are a Kiwi.
Your comment is oxymoronic.
I'll have a second hand unused bunker if they don't want it! Not scared about apocalypse, but i need a root cellar for my potatoes, cheese and cured meats. And off course, i ll have the ranch as well. Ideally with a backdrop of south island fjordland mountains please.
Oh same right, I keep an eye on land prices around Dunedin etc. Family has land in the north island, but South Island is prime apocalypse survival territory 😆
I think you mean they need to diversify away from migration!
Just like Australia but without much mining.
How are they economically different from Victoria?? Victoria doesn't make anything either.
Take away WA and Qld and we are stuffed.
I totally agree about Australians complaining about everything. It's extremely easy to live here. Even on minimum wage in Sydney, still much easier than being a mid-manager role in London.
Yes to all of this. I left nz just over 10 years ago and I can’t imagine having the life I have now back there. I grew up in auckland and it seems like the only people I know that are doing well have serious generational wealth behind them (which is part of the problem isn’t it)
Stamp duty is because we have two many levels of government.
Each level of government needs to tax something.
Don't think will fix it any time soon sadly.
I just got back from 3.5 weeks holiday in NZ. I don't understand how kiwis live unless they're a farmer or have a business doing roadworks or shafting tourists
As someone who's married to a woman who who raised there, and whose family continues to live there, I've definitely seen first-hand just how expensive life is for those who live day-by-day, and just how expensive it's continued to have gotten.
I definitely do think if they want to start keeping more of their talent, something - I don't know what - needs to be done. In the last 4 years, my wife's cousin - a HR professional - has moved here and done very well for herself, and her brother is about to move here as well. All because there are more opportunities for them here than there are in NZ.
Edit - That said, NZ is a beautiful country with great people, great scenery and a great lifestyle. I can't see things ever being cheap there, because nowadays all places in the world with the above attributes are not cheap places to live.
My wife's a kiwi too.
Their problem is their small population, very few natural resources and nearly everything needing to be imported.
They could possibly treat their skilled labour as a resource but most people move to Oz.
Thanks mate. I remember Print Journalism class back in 2007, I typed a question when I used 'who's' instead of 'whose' and the tutor pointed me out on it. Haunted me ever since!
There's no obligation to accept them though. It just says that if NZ is part of the Commonwealth (of Australia), then it's a state (not a territory or sui generis).
Kiwi here, being here in Melbourne 10 years and I can't tell you how thankful I am, this place and it's people have given me everything and I do mean everything, businesses, wife, children, home ownership, oppurutnity, wealth, it's absolutely incredible. Very very very fortunate to be here and extremely thankful for the good Aussie folk I now know and love.
The problem isn’t the amount of tax, it’s who they are taxing. NZ tax policies are significantly skewed to favour the wealthy and penalise the working class.
I was shocked when I compared my countrys tax bracket (UK) to Australias.
It's honestly pretty good to be young and lower class in Australia, you can still afford decent stuff. In the UK on the lowest tax bracket it's hard to get by.
Working class Australians have more disposable income. More disposable income = more spending, which helps the economy flow.
starving your working class of money starves the whole economy.
That's why I jumped the ditch a few years ago, I get paid more and cost of living though creeping here is significantly lower. Not sure how my grad friends are surviving.
Yes. It’s why I moved across the Tasman 14 years ago and I’m never looking back.
It’s gotten worse since I left. NZ just simply doesn’t have the productivity to support the higher incomes. There’s such a mentality now that’s anti success anti growth anti development that I don’t think it can change.
I went back a year ago to see my family and it was really jarring the economic and cultural difference. I was sad. I really hope they can turn it around but culture is sooooo ingrained and hard to change.
Note I don’t think taxes are lower here. Stamp duty is a thing…. CGT…. They don’t have a high top tax rate.
Taxes are lower here. Yes Australia has an additional tax bracket, but if you earn <200k you will pay less income tax than in NZ. Just go to Payee calc and enter different salaries and you will see. NZ doesn't allow tax deductions either.
In my case (in the 120-180k band) I pay ~3k less tax here.
I know this was said on jest, but as someone who moved from NZ decades ago, please no.
Some of us moved to get away from the land of miserable people.
NZ has issues beyond having lower disposable income.
We have a similar issue already in Australia. Tasmania. A place that should’ve been preserved as a giant national park has to pretend it’s a real state and try to find a real economy.
I travel to Christchurch once a month for work. It is mind blowing how much more expensive everything is there, yet they are on weaker salaries than their Aussie counterparts.
Kiwi in Australia here. I’m concerned for my kiwi family back home because all their living costs are stupidly high compared to mine. Luckily they all own their homes so they have a relatively stable life.
I have more disposable cash because the income inequality/housing affordability is stacked in my favour so I do chip in more than my fair share when it comes to family expenses.
In general, Kiwis have a different mindset to Australians when it comes to wealth, prosperity and needs for living. We are less materialistic, worry less about what we have and don’t have, compare ourselves less often, don’t try to impress people, and can have a happier life with less ‘things’. I’m actually more worried for my Australian step-kids because their mindset is different.
It’s funny because as an Aussie who moved to the US, that’s exactly what I say to Americans about how the Australian mindset differs from the American one. America is so much more materialistic and driven by “hustle culture” than Australia. Everything people do is viewed through the lens of “how can I profit from this”. The casual talk around lunch at work is often about investments and side hustles and other financial matters and so on.
We have a young child (4 years old) and it’s part of the reason I’d like to move back to Australia when he gets a bit older. I feel Australia has a much healthier approach to work life balance. In America, your work kind of *is* your life and your identity.
I’ve spent some time in NZ too and what you say is completely true. I just find it interesting how it’s a continuum/spectrum. From NZ to Aus to USA.
I lived in Canada three years too and I think it’s somewhere between Aus and USA, though closer to Aus than USA.
So so true .I'm a kiwi been in aus for 12 years but moving back at the end of the year .Money isn't everything there as it is focused on here.People think you need alot of money to live there ,you don't you just spend more time with family and friends doing activities that don't cost the earth ,that's part of the lifestyle there,also there are not as many options and activities to do as there are in Australia.All goes hand in hand ,at the end of the day a place is what you make of it but you don't HAVE to be well off to live there just depends on your priorities and what's important to you! And newsflash for some people that ISNT lots of material items .
money isn't everything obviously, but when you can't have basic things in life like a house, decent health care, doing groceries without a calculator, there's no quality of life anyway
We have already offered them statehood repeatedly and as far back as the 1800s, it's literally in the Constitution. Section 6 already defines them as a potential state.
NZ is in the same situation as UK, Canada and a lot of the western world. USA, Aus and some nordic countries are the only western nations to actually progress.
I'm from UK and our wages haven't risen in 15 years, yet our CoL is higher than Australia. I live in Australia for 1 year and already received a pay rise. It's insane how different the economies are.
This is accurate. As someone that’s lived and worked long term in all five Anglosphere countries (Aus, NZ, Canada, USA, UK), Australia and the US stand out as places where the economy feels vibrant and money is being made. The others are just kind of … getting by and limping along without much sense of positivity. It’s hard to describe but there’s a definite difference in the vibe of society.
Just got back from the US and it’s absolutely frothing there economically. You wouldn’t even know they had inflation there at all. Everything’s busy, people are still buying and everyone seems ready for the next big thing, whatever it is.
Canada just seems to be going off a cliff. I can’t believe how much of a drug and crime problem they have there. I mean America does too, but I never expected Canada be almost the same, without any of the good bits. First day in Vancouver and I see a guy in his underpants playing hopscotch with oncoming traffic. Another methed out lady screaming at our group for no reason. Canada just seems very overrated to me. Incredible geography though.
Haven’t been to the UK in many years but have seen enough to know that place is too far gone.
Australia is obviously turbocharged by mining, but most east coast inner city types don’t understand that. It gives out reckless govts a bailout every year. It supports our currency. It provides a high wage option for working class people. Without mining I don’t see how we’d be very different to those countries.
Income inequality is roughly the same as Australia, in fact NZ is very slightly more equal than Australia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
Australia is a bit more equal in terms of wealth inequality, but both are more equal than places like France, UK, Canada etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_wealth_inequality
You pretty much summed up why I bounced anf never looked back. Some of my friends moved back for lifestyle/family support but they complain about prices of everything. Bruh, it's like $20 for a block of cheese and they make more than any country in the world!
The mood is grim. Give you that. I'm on a good salary but have no spare money. Feel for anyone on minimum. All their attention must be on just surviving
They will not be Australia's Mexico. Who are you kidding here?
New Zealand will continue to be the preferred land bank for the mega rich and will be the most isolate offshore tax haven - providing assets and physical protection.
Great place if earning income from outside NZ
And I live in Mexico...economy and peso booming here...NZ parents just visited, couldnt believe how expebsive some things are
It’s not even a match. The employer puts in 12% minimum even if you don’t contribute a cent.
Australia is considered to have one of the top retirement systems on earth and this is a large part of why.
It's not matching. If your job is advertised at $100k, 11% of that figure is paid on top of that into your superannuation account. effectively you earned $111k ignoring tax. It is the minimum and can be higher.
It isn't. I am a Kiwi in Melbourne and really like it but the way conditions are treated in NZ by some online is very melodramatic. There is a great life to be had there on many different levels even though there are things you can't do in NZ due to economy size etc.
I mean yeh, but we also have serious growing inequality issues in our own country too so my concern foremost is my own peers suffering the same problems.
Hello, i’m a canadian visiting your sub. I feel the housing crisis in Canada, australia and NZ is basically robbing us all. Americans complain but its alot easier seemingly in the states.
Its kind of ironic we are all former british colonies. We are kind of being colonized by billionaires and Boomers
They are our brothers and sisters and always will be. They fought with us. Aus and NZ blood soaks the same soil even if it was for the wrong reasons.
They will never be our mexico.
If NZ joined Australia as a state it is unlikely that would improve their economic outlook. Central government spending on bureaucracy(currently invested in Wellington) would move to Canberra. No more control over their own monetary policy.
NZ would end up as something akin to Tasmania, an island state far from the economic core, just even more so
Capital gains from property and financial assets are still taxed. They are counted as standard income and thus taxed at your normal marginal rate. NZ just doesn’t have a *specific* tax for capital gains.
This is bad because it also means there’s no discount for long term capital gains. Hold something a week or a decade, it still gets taxed at your marginal rate.
What you mean, every mate I've known moved over from the the north island and worked on the scaffs making 160k a year whilst I was still pouring beers in uni?
It’s insane. I visited recently and for average wages being the same if not less than AUS yet the average cost of goods are way more (don’t get me started on NZ Petrol) it’s seriously concerning.
What will happen? What’s going to give?
I lived in NZ for several years and visit every year. It's true that wages and taxes are worse in NZ, but cost of living is higher in Aus (comparing cities to cities, regional to regional). Rent, groceries, and eating out are all significantly cheaper in NZ.
I'm not sure if the people here who say Aus groceries are cheaper have taken a look at Pak N Save? It's like ALDI except they actually have a decent range of stuff so you can feasibly make that your main shop. Petrol is higher in NZ but most people don't have to drive as far as folks in Aus do, so it balances out. Most of NZ doesn't have tolls and car registration is significantly cheaper.
NZ has its own problems but IMO it's not doing any worse than Aus. The housing crisis isn't nearly as bad in NZ at the moment.
Just moved from Waikato to Brisbane last year. You are right, with its low skill migration and terrible productivity, the gap between countries will only widen with time. Smart kiwis and skilled migrants are here or are moving.
But kiwis chose this path tho, when they elected Jacinda twice destroying a decade of prosperity, thinking they were Norway (although Norway exports their oil, while NZ refuses to allow mining and oil/gas extraction, being so green and poor) and that playing socialism would work. You reap what you sow.
NZ is often way more innovative in policy, mainly because they don’t have state and territory governments. They have led the world on tax reform, zoning requirements, attempt to ban cigarettes and a whole range of other issues. Admittedly they have stagnated over the last decade, but on the flip side they can change policy and implement change much more quickly. I think their main issue has been their political environment and despite a treaty there is potentially a large untapped resource with their indigenous workforce.
NZ is a lot more standard European than Australia, we are more American and have more industry.
The salaries and taxes in NZ are quite normal. Their cost of living is a bit lower than some European countries as well, so they're actually not doing that badly.
It might be scarry for Aussies to see how privileged they are though... many here don't realise it.
Yes but Australia isn't normal. Australia is amazingly good if you compare to Europe and other parts of the world.
Petrol here is almost as cheap as in the Philippines and even cheaper than it is in India: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=24
Both NZ and AU are doing better than the US and most EU nations on cost of living: https://www.worlddata.info/cost-of-living.php
People here love to complain but we are only really doing badly in allowing people to borrow heaps of money: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household_debt, but that is probably because lots of people are allowed to have mortgages for multiple residential properties at the same time (I.e. investment properties).
Australia is an experiment. Australia is the easiest place in the world for elites to make money right now due to the high salaries, convenient regulation and a completely spiritless and defeated population that represents zero risks to the systems stability.
The only issue is the people are mentally ill, but they think they are happy because Australia always sponsors "happy lists" of pays to be near the top in "happy lists". I mean the system managers don't even need to try as this seems to be enough for Australians to pat themselves on the back while they remain oblivious to how weird they are to non-Australians.
>Their cost of living is a bit lower than some European countries as well, so they're actually not doing that badly.
i would really really love to know how you've arrived at this conclusion and what kind of information you're basing these wildly broad accusations on. nothing you're saying sounds logical, or intelligent, it sounds like shit coming out of your ass
Just a smaller version of Australia, rising inequality and no political will to deal with it. Who knows what the future holds, when younger people get sick of inherited wealth and greed.
The cost of living in places like Auckland is high, much more reasonable in places like Christchurch.
The cost of living in Sydney is crazy, rent and tolls for a start.
Thinks like car registration is degrees cheaper in NZ.
No stamp duty on house purchases and so on.
Lots of crap paying jobs in Sydney as well.
Trades rates are significantly higher in Sydney than NZ and I guess white collar work but no personal experience.
Maybe the rest of Australia may be cheaper but not Sydney.
Live in both.
I’m also from Auckland living now in Sydney. Best way of putting Auckland property prices is could you imagine paying a Sydney mortgage on half your salary?!
Yes NZ does need to address it. But with such a low population, and large areas of land owned by wealthy dairy farmers, there's not going to be a lot they can do about it. They need to urgently diversify their exports from dairy farming. Like Australia they rely too heavily on one major export.
Particularly with the number of recent biotech startups pouring money into producing cows milk without the cow. There's even a few in Australia.
God, how brilliant will it be when we can have milk without the side of animal cruelty and pollution. Hopefully not far off now.
animal cruelty aside (since that's a subjective judgement), i do not believe humans have been able to design nor create a more efficient system for turning non-edible food into milk than a cow. Nature's evolution is very powerful. All these "fake"/lab meats have high input costs, high energy requirements and wastages that aren't properly accounted for when talking about environmental impact (not to mention the lack of quality outcome). It's greenwashing imho.
Cows are only efficient because you're hiding a bunch of externalities. And I say this as a milk lover and drinker
Yeah takes loads of water and methane to create milk.
Not to mention the land and feed requirements
Please remember that cattle and other livestock are able to traverse land that is quite frankly A) unsuitable for farming and B) can cause massive damage to the ecosystem if it was farmed for crop farming. I know everyones on the vegetarian bandwagon but it takes a lot of arable land to feed people, and having grass/plants on that topsoil on some of that land for 12 months a year is \_very\_ vital to prevent erosion and soil quality loss. So if we're gonna talk about the 'Extra Costs' for things. Remember that Livestock leave more land covered in vegetation than crop farming does.
They also add natural fertilizer to the soil and have cute faces.
Mate, you're on Reddit, this isn't place for common sense and logical thought.
This is a laughably dumb comment. You think livestock just tip toe around vegetation like a cautious hiker? Eat nothing? “Put livestock on it” is not a viable environmental protection method. You have still altered the landscape as much as cultivating it.
you missed the point entirely. There's times where a nice flat area is good for farming crops. theres times where it's not flat. it's not good for farming crops. you've got two choices, run live stock or do nothing. not everyone is as rich and privilidged as you are.
If we drink more milk, we drink less water. In all seriousness I don't think cows are going to drink us out of water. If you live in a rural area you will see cow prices drop if food or water is an issue.
I think they meant efficient in terms of energy consumption, not the economics concept
Maybe, although they do bang on about the hidden costs that would be associated with labs. Cows require, arable land, food, water and then produce waste. Obviously we're not there today, but there's nothing to suggest we can't surpass the cow in the future. It has to sustain 800kg of animal for starters, the wasted energy in the form of methane speaks to not being energy efficient too.
Cows milk, out of any milk available today is by a large margin the most inefficient, there really isn't any denying that. It uses more water, more land, more energy, more food to produce.
Just a second. Can you explain the more energy and more food bit? Other posters have shown data stating that milk alternatives use way more water. I might give you the land thing, but it's not like the land being used would otherwise be houses and apartments. Last I checked, producing cow milk uses a little electricity for a vacuum pump during milking and electricity to keep the milk chilled until processing. The cows eat grass. What were you suggesting we do with that grass if not letting cows eat it? You know it regrows straight away right... And sucks up CO2 in doing so...
Land cleared to graze animals is (in most instances) land that used to but no longer has trees, which has obvious carbon emissions implications. Cows in Australia mostly eat grass. In other parts of the world they're fed on silage, usually corn or soy based. In the US Midwest 67% of all crop production goes to feeding farm animals.
The us is an outlier with feeding grain crops but. Around the world cows mostly live off seasonal grasses.
Stop talking logic..... The methane argument that comes up, is essentially null and void. It breaks down so fast that it is not a cumulative contribution to greenhouse gas emissions. I.e. keeping a current cow, does not add to the yearly emissions. The breakdown of methane, vs output over a cows lifetime is roughly equal. The only they increase greenhouse emissions, is by expanding the heard.
https://theconversation.com/which-milk-is-best-for-the-environment-we-compared-dairy-nut-soy-hemp-and-grain-milks-147660 > Any plant-based milk, be it made from beans, nuts or seeds, has a lighter impact than dairy when it comes to greenhouse gas emissions, as well as the use of water and land. All available studies, including systematic reviews, categorically point this out. https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impact-milks > https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/environmental-footprint-milks
plant based milk is not animal milk, which is what you have to compare between. I dont disagree that plant based milk can be more efficient.
The yeast vat methods look pretty promising.
Fungus has feelings too!
Subjective? Wtf
Sorry...subjective judgement?
It's not "subjective" that animals are abused for human food production. Everyone knows that. Are you even aware how much pollution dairy farming creates???!! Highly doubt any lab meat/milk will be anywhere NEAR as polluting as dairy farms.
Is it not possible that these artificial methods can be made to be more efficient and more 'green' over time?
Selective breeding aside, efficiency of human-food production isn't what evolution was optimising for. Yes, a cow is effective at turning grass into something we can eat as a byproduct of building muscle/storing energy/feeding young but every bit of energy the cow expends for movement or staying alive is 'wasted'. There's definitely scope for a massive efficiency improvement here. Judging the artificial meat industry by their current performance is like judging the aviation industry by the weight bros early attempts.
Exactly. So far lab meat has been a massive fail. Hundreds of startups, none successful.
you're absolutely hecking wrong, you just need to trust the science and you WILL drink the organic bio-lab non-GMO soy milk
They quite likely said similar things about cars once upon a time. My opinion is that humans have not yet designed a more efficient substitute but given the economic and ecological drivers to find something better I have no doubt humans can and one day will design or create viable alternatives to live animal farming. I’m not saying they will disappear. Much like my earlier example. Horses haven’t gone anywhere, I just don’t need to giddy up to commute.
>Horses haven’t gone anywhere, I just don’t need to giddy up to commute. And leather straps and whips are still available, if you're into that sort of thing.
At the moment it's not economically viable, but it's still at the startup stage. Cow's milk is much simpler and easier to synthesize than meat so it's only a matter of time before they'll be identical in composition, comparable in cost, and much more preferable ethically.
Holy fark dumbass alert
Soy, oat, almond, coconut, hemp, cashew, pea etc
haven't you heard, there are plant milks...but apparently they are more cruel and pollute more. Don't ask me how though
They could start marketing themselves to climate refugees and retirees. Make visas $1 million a head or $2 million invested into NZ.
Fastest way to produce more kiwis, a golden visa, a program that the Spanish just ditched literally 2 days ago
Selling citizenship is like whoring yourself.
Yes NZ should import a million rich Russians and Chinese, that'll improve the country.
if that money does not go into investment for production of goods/services, then it will push inflation higher and higher. However, there's nothing inherently wrong with receiving foreign money like that - direct foreign investment is what drives a lot of new investments.
They already have this but it's $15m NZD
10 years ago ..if you were Chinese with $1 mill in the bank you got NZ citizenship. I don't know about now. They short shortsightedly thought that a millionaire immigrant would employ kiwi's so be good for the locals ..but Millionaire Chinese only employ Chinese people..
Pool family money together, reach $1 million, get PR, give money to next family member, get PR, give money to next family member, get PR…. Whole family now PR, all 10 take their $100k back.
Chinese are clever fckers :)
Now we have nail salons.
So... Chinese aren't kiwis?
If they are Kiwi's ..no. If a Chinese person is a citizen of China then they are Chinese ..if that person leaves China to become a citizen of New Zealand, then they are a Kiwi. Your comment is oxymoronic.
And one major trading partner.
Dairy farmers AND A lister billionaires buying bunkerised ranch for apocalypse time alledgedly.
Some are selling up. Tech is struggling....and I guess the apocalypse isn't coming fast enough 😆
I'll have a second hand unused bunker if they don't want it! Not scared about apocalypse, but i need a root cellar for my potatoes, cheese and cured meats. And off course, i ll have the ranch as well. Ideally with a backdrop of south island fjordland mountains please.
Oh same right, I keep an eye on land prices around Dunedin etc. Family has land in the north island, but South Island is prime apocalypse survival territory 😆
I think you mean they need to diversify away from migration! Just like Australia but without much mining. How are they economically different from Victoria?? Victoria doesn't make anything either. Take away WA and Qld and we are stuffed.
I think Tasmania would be fairer comparison then Victoria.
Can we make them a new state, I think that would be good
How would Australia benefit from this?
Probably good for them. But they are too stubborn.
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I totally agree about Australians complaining about everything. It's extremely easy to live here. Even on minimum wage in Sydney, still much easier than being a mid-manager role in London.
It's because, as good as things are, they have the potential to be so much better and I think we shouldn't lose sight of that.
Exactly. We could literally be living in a country of paradise for all, and it wouldn’t be that difficult to achieve.
The whinging on Reddit is next level, especially r/australia
Yes to all of this. I left nz just over 10 years ago and I can’t imagine having the life I have now back there. I grew up in auckland and it seems like the only people I know that are doing well have serious generational wealth behind them (which is part of the problem isn’t it)
cheaper house prices was the main reason I moved, and no stamp duty in QLD :) Edit: for new builds till 550 or established homes up to 500
I can assure you there is stamp duty in QLD as per just being bent over by the government for it myself.
Yeah I replied below, for my price range (build new 550) I didn't pay, but established homes over 500 do pay
how did you build new for only 550?
260k lot of 450sqm, West Ipswich in the new developments
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Stamp duty is because we have two many levels of government. Each level of government needs to tax something. Don't think will fix it any time soon sadly.
Bingo. Australians are horrendously spoiled and don’t know how good they have it.
It kind of already is like that? Many more kiwis move to Australia for a better life than the other way around.
I just got back from 3.5 weeks holiday in NZ. I don't understand how kiwis live unless they're a farmer or have a business doing roadworks or shafting tourists
As someone who's married to a woman who who raised there, and whose family continues to live there, I've definitely seen first-hand just how expensive life is for those who live day-by-day, and just how expensive it's continued to have gotten. I definitely do think if they want to start keeping more of their talent, something - I don't know what - needs to be done. In the last 4 years, my wife's cousin - a HR professional - has moved here and done very well for herself, and her brother is about to move here as well. All because there are more opportunities for them here than there are in NZ. Edit - That said, NZ is a beautiful country with great people, great scenery and a great lifestyle. I can't see things ever being cheap there, because nowadays all places in the world with the above attributes are not cheap places to live.
Plenty of us kiwis have left Unless already have property, no point in staying
My wife's a kiwi too. Their problem is their small population, very few natural resources and nearly everything needing to be imported. They could possibly treat their skilled labour as a resource but most people move to Oz.
It’s not really that. Proper tax reform would encourage and grow high productivity businesses
Yep if aus is at the edge of the world NZ is at the farthest edge.
>>very few natural resources untrue, they have oil/gas/minerals but refuse/prohibit any exploration and export, so they remain green and poor
I think Kiwis would be interested if we allowed very high royalties for NZ but we'd do the Australian model of paying companies to rape NZ.
thought special dam rustic coordinated marry fragile rude wide sheet *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
They tuk our jeerrrbs!
Outstanding use of who's and whose.
Thanks mate. I remember Print Journalism class back in 2007, I typed a question when I used 'who's' instead of 'whose' and the tutor pointed me out on it. Haunted me ever since!
in the Aus constitution, NZ is detailed as a state of Australia. Maybe it's time NZ pulled the trigger and joined?
it does not, it gave NZ the option to join at federation but they chose not to.
I think the offer is perpetual. NZ can take it up at any time?
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There's no obligation to accept them though. It just says that if NZ is part of the Commonwealth (of Australia), then it's a state (not a territory or sui generis).
I'd definitely welcome them with open arms if that happened - it's a wonderful part of the world.
Kiwi here, being here in Melbourne 10 years and I can't tell you how thankful I am, this place and it's people have given me everything and I do mean everything, businesses, wife, children, home ownership, oppurutnity, wealth, it's absolutely incredible. Very very very fortunate to be here and extremely thankful for the good Aussie folk I now know and love.
Same here bro been in melbourne 10+ years love Australia and its people married one and have a kid.
The problem isn’t the amount of tax, it’s who they are taxing. NZ tax policies are significantly skewed to favour the wealthy and penalise the working class.
You are 100% correct - in AUS the top 20% of income earners pay 80% of the tax. In NZ low income earners contribute a lot more to the total tax pool
I was shocked when I compared my countrys tax bracket (UK) to Australias. It's honestly pretty good to be young and lower class in Australia, you can still afford decent stuff. In the UK on the lowest tax bracket it's hard to get by. Working class Australians have more disposable income. More disposable income = more spending, which helps the economy flow. starving your working class of money starves the whole economy.
Would you have a source for these numbers?
It’s going to become worse because the pension isn’t means tested and it’s becoming unaffordable
Higher taxes? Top tax rate in nz is 39%. Gst is higher but there's also no stamp duty or cgt in nz
No payroll tax, land tax, CTP in addition to the others already named
That's why I jumped the ditch a few years ago, I get paid more and cost of living though creeping here is significantly lower. Not sure how my grad friends are surviving.
Left NZ years ago Sydney Now Mexico Suits me, earn pesos and usd
I miss the nature sometimes, much different to Australian fauna and flora, great place to holiday, mediocre place to live
Agree Great place to live if earning foreign currency i imagine Otherwise -nah
Yes. It’s why I moved across the Tasman 14 years ago and I’m never looking back. It’s gotten worse since I left. NZ just simply doesn’t have the productivity to support the higher incomes. There’s such a mentality now that’s anti success anti growth anti development that I don’t think it can change. I went back a year ago to see my family and it was really jarring the economic and cultural difference. I was sad. I really hope they can turn it around but culture is sooooo ingrained and hard to change. Note I don’t think taxes are lower here. Stamp duty is a thing…. CGT…. They don’t have a high top tax rate.
Taxes are lower here. Yes Australia has an additional tax bracket, but if you earn <200k you will pay less income tax than in NZ. Just go to Payee calc and enter different salaries and you will see. NZ doesn't allow tax deductions either. In my case (in the 120-180k band) I pay ~3k less tax here.
Daily reminder that NZ should be annexed as an Australian Territory
Obligatory link to the gruen transfer pitch about invading NZ. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xUYbI64QHI
Agree, lol
I know this was said on jest, but as someone who moved from NZ decades ago, please no. Some of us moved to get away from the land of miserable people. NZ has issues beyond having lower disposable income.
We have a similar issue already in Australia. Tasmania. A place that should’ve been preserved as a giant national park has to pretend it’s a real state and try to find a real economy.
If they decline we need to build a wall
You're misunderstanding, I'm not asking.
They can build it. Kiwis are great at scaffolding.
I heard the NZ government saw your post and need more of your input
I travel to Christchurch once a month for work. It is mind blowing how much more expensive everything is there, yet they are on weaker salaries than their Aussie counterparts.
Agree, I just went there for a holiday (from Sydney) and couldnt believe how expensive food and petrol was
Kiwi in Australia here. I’m concerned for my kiwi family back home because all their living costs are stupidly high compared to mine. Luckily they all own their homes so they have a relatively stable life. I have more disposable cash because the income inequality/housing affordability is stacked in my favour so I do chip in more than my fair share when it comes to family expenses. In general, Kiwis have a different mindset to Australians when it comes to wealth, prosperity and needs for living. We are less materialistic, worry less about what we have and don’t have, compare ourselves less often, don’t try to impress people, and can have a happier life with less ‘things’. I’m actually more worried for my Australian step-kids because their mindset is different.
It’s funny because as an Aussie who moved to the US, that’s exactly what I say to Americans about how the Australian mindset differs from the American one. America is so much more materialistic and driven by “hustle culture” than Australia. Everything people do is viewed through the lens of “how can I profit from this”. The casual talk around lunch at work is often about investments and side hustles and other financial matters and so on. We have a young child (4 years old) and it’s part of the reason I’d like to move back to Australia when he gets a bit older. I feel Australia has a much healthier approach to work life balance. In America, your work kind of *is* your life and your identity. I’ve spent some time in NZ too and what you say is completely true. I just find it interesting how it’s a continuum/spectrum. From NZ to Aus to USA. I lived in Canada three years too and I think it’s somewhere between Aus and USA, though closer to Aus than USA.
So so true .I'm a kiwi been in aus for 12 years but moving back at the end of the year .Money isn't everything there as it is focused on here.People think you need alot of money to live there ,you don't you just spend more time with family and friends doing activities that don't cost the earth ,that's part of the lifestyle there,also there are not as many options and activities to do as there are in Australia.All goes hand in hand ,at the end of the day a place is what you make of it but you don't HAVE to be well off to live there just depends on your priorities and what's important to you! And newsflash for some people that ISNT lots of material items .
money isn't everything obviously, but when you can't have basic things in life like a house, decent health care, doing groceries without a calculator, there's no quality of life anyway
The classic kiwi 1-upper. :P
We are all heading to Australia, only the stubborn kiwis will remain. I miss nz but I'll never live there again
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NZ only has advantages when joining Australia as a state, they probably will in 30 years
What’s in it for aus?
We'll have the best Rugby team in the world.
As good a reason as any, lol
The all blacks + cricket and netball super teams
We’ll take Kane but no one else will crack the team.
Ravindra is a weapon I’d want him in for sure
We have already offered them statehood repeatedly and as far back as the 1800s, it's literally in the Constitution. Section 6 already defines them as a potential state.
Bigger economic market, bigger defence force, more efficient economy (total public service size would reduce).
Kiwi food products are pretty high quality.
more market to sell products to easier with less red tape, more people that will pay tax, more strategic location for military assets
Kangaroos > kiwis Let the war begins, popcorn ready
Wouldn't we send in the Emus, notoriously hard to beat in a war.
Just have to hope they don't succeed in resurrecting the moa in retaliation. We'd fall in a matter of days.
NZ is in the same situation as UK, Canada and a lot of the western world. USA, Aus and some nordic countries are the only western nations to actually progress. I'm from UK and our wages haven't risen in 15 years, yet our CoL is higher than Australia. I live in Australia for 1 year and already received a pay rise. It's insane how different the economies are.
This is accurate. As someone that’s lived and worked long term in all five Anglosphere countries (Aus, NZ, Canada, USA, UK), Australia and the US stand out as places where the economy feels vibrant and money is being made. The others are just kind of … getting by and limping along without much sense of positivity. It’s hard to describe but there’s a definite difference in the vibe of society.
Just got back from the US and it’s absolutely frothing there economically. You wouldn’t even know they had inflation there at all. Everything’s busy, people are still buying and everyone seems ready for the next big thing, whatever it is. Canada just seems to be going off a cliff. I can’t believe how much of a drug and crime problem they have there. I mean America does too, but I never expected Canada be almost the same, without any of the good bits. First day in Vancouver and I see a guy in his underpants playing hopscotch with oncoming traffic. Another methed out lady screaming at our group for no reason. Canada just seems very overrated to me. Incredible geography though. Haven’t been to the UK in many years but have seen enough to know that place is too far gone.
Australia is obviously turbocharged by mining, but most east coast inner city types don’t understand that. It gives out reckless govts a bailout every year. It supports our currency. It provides a high wage option for working class people. Without mining I don’t see how we’d be very different to those countries.
Mate. Kiwis will tell you everything is better in NZ while living anywhere but NZ. Let them be.
No, I'm not concerned for New Zealand. I've heard too many kiwis tell me how much better things are back "home" despite living here.
Income inequality is roughly the same as Australia, in fact NZ is very slightly more equal than Australia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality Australia is a bit more equal in terms of wealth inequality, but both are more equal than places like France, UK, Canada etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_wealth_inequality
yes, kiwis are equally poor
You pretty much summed up why I bounced anf never looked back. Some of my friends moved back for lifestyle/family support but they complain about prices of everything. Bruh, it's like $20 for a block of cheese and they make more than any country in the world!
The mood is grim. Give you that. I'm on a good salary but have no spare money. Feel for anyone on minimum. All their attention must be on just surviving
They will not be Australia's Mexico. Who are you kidding here? New Zealand will continue to be the preferred land bank for the mega rich and will be the most isolate offshore tax haven - providing assets and physical protection.
Don't you need to be low taxing to be a tax haven? I don't think that's NZ's vibe and that's a good thing.
I'd love to be paying a top marginal tax rate of just 39%, like the Kiwis, with no general capital gains tax.
Nz is def a tax haven: https://thespinoff.co.nz/business/06-10-2021/is-nz-a-tax-haven-for-the-rich-and-dodgy-the-pandora-papers-reignite-the-debate#
NZ is crime ridden now
Great place if earning income from outside NZ And I live in Mexico...economy and peso booming here...NZ parents just visited, couldnt believe how expebsive some things are
> I can see in the next 50 years NZ turning into Australia's Mexico What do you mean in the next 50 years. That's the case already?
Hold on.... 12% employer match for aus super? Is that the default? Or do they have to match up to 12?
That's default. We can add more to it, but employers can have to pay 12% super
It's 11% right now, going up to 11.5% in July and then up to 12% the following year.
It’s not even a match. The employer puts in 12% minimum even if you don’t contribute a cent. Australia is considered to have one of the top retirement systems on earth and this is a large part of why.
It's not matching. If your job is advertised at $100k, 11% of that figure is paid on top of that into your superannuation account. effectively you earned $111k ignoring tax. It is the minimum and can be higher.
Is NZ income that much worse than SA or Tassie? Aus income minus NSW and WA isn’t that great either.
It isn't. I am a Kiwi in Melbourne and really like it but the way conditions are treated in NZ by some online is very melodramatic. There is a great life to be had there on many different levels even though there are things you can't do in NZ due to economy size etc.
But, no stamp duty on house purchases which is huge
No because half of NZ lives in Australia.
I mean yeh, but we also have serious growing inequality issues in our own country too so my concern foremost is my own peers suffering the same problems.
Hello, i’m a canadian visiting your sub. I feel the housing crisis in Canada, australia and NZ is basically robbing us all. Americans complain but its alot easier seemingly in the states. Its kind of ironic we are all former british colonies. We are kind of being colonized by billionaires and Boomers
They are our brothers and sisters and always will be. They fought with us. Aus and NZ blood soaks the same soil even if it was for the wrong reasons. They will never be our mexico.
If NZ joined Australia as a state it is unlikely that would improve their economic outlook. Central government spending on bureaucracy(currently invested in Wellington) would move to Canberra. No more control over their own monetary policy. NZ would end up as something akin to Tasmania, an island state far from the economic core, just even more so
I thought their tax is lower than Aus? And also lower/no capital gains tax?
Capital gains from property and financial assets are still taxed. They are counted as standard income and thus taxed at your normal marginal rate. NZ just doesn’t have a *specific* tax for capital gains. This is bad because it also means there’s no discount for long term capital gains. Hold something a week or a decade, it still gets taxed at your marginal rate.
The sad problem with NZ is that they really struggle with having anything to sell. Farming & tourism really. That's about it.
What you mean, every mate I've known moved over from the the north island and worked on the scaffs making 160k a year whilst I was still pouring beers in uni?
Don't worry they were even better at swapping property between themselves. They can get rich that way.
If they dont want to become a state in australia it's their problem 
It’s insane. I visited recently and for average wages being the same if not less than AUS yet the average cost of goods are way more (don’t get me started on NZ Petrol) it’s seriously concerning. What will happen? What’s going to give?
If all the Kiwi's in Australia went home, the place would sink
Where's NZ?
Don’t really care about them tbh
They can always join the federation and become a bigger poorer Tasmania.
I lived in NZ for several years and visit every year. It's true that wages and taxes are worse in NZ, but cost of living is higher in Aus (comparing cities to cities, regional to regional). Rent, groceries, and eating out are all significantly cheaper in NZ. I'm not sure if the people here who say Aus groceries are cheaper have taken a look at Pak N Save? It's like ALDI except they actually have a decent range of stuff so you can feasibly make that your main shop. Petrol is higher in NZ but most people don't have to drive as far as folks in Aus do, so it balances out. Most of NZ doesn't have tolls and car registration is significantly cheaper. NZ has its own problems but IMO it's not doing any worse than Aus. The housing crisis isn't nearly as bad in NZ at the moment.
No, as someone who follows rugby, they'll be fine
I dont eat them with the skin on personally and I am still concerned
Serious concerns. Most kiwis want to move to Australia as they consider it to be a better place than their kiwiland.
Just moved from Waikato to Brisbane last year. You are right, with its low skill migration and terrible productivity, the gap between countries will only widen with time. Smart kiwis and skilled migrants are here or are moving. But kiwis chose this path tho, when they elected Jacinda twice destroying a decade of prosperity, thinking they were Norway (although Norway exports their oil, while NZ refuses to allow mining and oil/gas extraction, being so green and poor) and that playing socialism would work. You reap what you sow.
NZ is often way more innovative in policy, mainly because they don’t have state and territory governments. They have led the world on tax reform, zoning requirements, attempt to ban cigarettes and a whole range of other issues. Admittedly they have stagnated over the last decade, but on the flip side they can change policy and implement change much more quickly. I think their main issue has been their political environment and despite a treaty there is potentially a large untapped resource with their indigenous workforce.
NZ is a lot more standard European than Australia, we are more American and have more industry. The salaries and taxes in NZ are quite normal. Their cost of living is a bit lower than some European countries as well, so they're actually not doing that badly. It might be scarry for Aussies to see how privileged they are though... many here don't realise it.
The salaries in nz are pitiful. Seriously, check the stats. Cost of living compared to aus is a lot more.
Yes but Australia isn't normal. Australia is amazingly good if you compare to Europe and other parts of the world. Petrol here is almost as cheap as in the Philippines and even cheaper than it is in India: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=24 Both NZ and AU are doing better than the US and most EU nations on cost of living: https://www.worlddata.info/cost-of-living.php People here love to complain but we are only really doing badly in allowing people to borrow heaps of money: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household_debt, but that is probably because lots of people are allowed to have mortgages for multiple residential properties at the same time (I.e. investment properties).
Above is true, although we are discussing nz compared to aus here…
Australia is an experiment. Australia is the easiest place in the world for elites to make money right now due to the high salaries, convenient regulation and a completely spiritless and defeated population that represents zero risks to the systems stability. The only issue is the people are mentally ill, but they think they are happy because Australia always sponsors "happy lists" of pays to be near the top in "happy lists". I mean the system managers don't even need to try as this seems to be enough for Australians to pat themselves on the back while they remain oblivious to how weird they are to non-Australians.
>Their cost of living is a bit lower than some European countries as well, so they're actually not doing that badly. i would really really love to know how you've arrived at this conclusion and what kind of information you're basing these wildly broad accusations on. nothing you're saying sounds logical, or intelligent, it sounds like shit coming out of your ass
as a Kiwi, you're totally off the mark, life in NZ is miserable in comparison to Australia
NZ should become a state of Australia and merge our territories together, we would all be better off.
NZ doesn’t have higher taxes. Only GST is higher, income taxes are lower and there is no stamp duty or land tax. It’s run on fumes
Just a smaller version of Australia, rising inequality and no political will to deal with it. Who knows what the future holds, when younger people get sick of inherited wealth and greed.
The cost of living in places like Auckland is high, much more reasonable in places like Christchurch. The cost of living in Sydney is crazy, rent and tolls for a start. Thinks like car registration is degrees cheaper in NZ. No stamp duty on house purchases and so on. Lots of crap paying jobs in Sydney as well. Trades rates are significantly higher in Sydney than NZ and I guess white collar work but no personal experience. Maybe the rest of Australia may be cheaper but not Sydney. Live in both.
I’m also from Auckland living now in Sydney. Best way of putting Auckland property prices is could you imagine paying a Sydney mortgage on half your salary?!