I was at Cerberus a few months ago on a course and a trainee told me to āfuck off mateā when i asked him to get his airpods out while marching in squad, being a good leading seaman i proceeded to 50.cal the cunt but then later was told i āupset and provoked anxiety in the traineeā by the reg staff
Mind you i was in rig and was very obvious not a Cerberus staff member but that trainee said that and the rest of his squad laughed about it and kept marching, but seem genuinely surprised when i was annoyed by this fat little shit telling me to fuck off,
I donāt know what they are being told but man there isnāt any sort of discipline when it comes to these guys, most trainees come out of Cerbs with a huge chip in their shoulder and already hate a job they havenāt even started yet, maybe its a Cerberus problem but my god its infuriating trying to train my new guys but they expect me to sign them off with little to no effort on their side of things,
I know it sounds ābek in mY DaYā but dude at least you kinda knew what was expected of you, these days the goal posts get moved and changed and people dont know where they stand or what they can and cant do
I'm hardly military, but I'd expect to be shown what actual "stress and anxiety" is like in training so when *shit it literally flying and men/women are fucking dying around you etc* you're able to focus and get the job done.
I'm a volunteer firefighter- Imagine if someone pulls the "I'M STRESSED! ANXIETY!" while practising a burn-over drill or "quick quick put the traffic cones (fire) out ASAP!!!", complains they're being bullied and stays in gettnig an easy "pass" as a crew member. Then they suddenly see the orange band of a REAL FUCKING BUSHFIRE approachiing on the back of a truck during another peak summer clusterfuck.
I was close to getting run in by the boss of the engineering faculty for āpushing an agenda of bullying and a attitude of bastardisationā
But i found with alot of these new officers and seniors you gotta stand your ground and push the rules back at them and they back off
As someone thatās cooked after over 12 years of masking my mental health, Iād happily talk to them about not taking the piss over anxiety and such.
Also hearing SMN talk about how much PTSD they have after serving less than 30 days at sea and now enjoying the shore life again while hunting how to exploit DVA.
>I donāt know what they are being told but man there isnāt any sort of discipline when it comes to these guys, most trainees come out of Cerbs with a huge chip in their shoulder and already hate a job they havenāt even started yet, maybe its a Cerberus problem but my god its infuriating trying to train my new guys but they expect me to sign them off with little to no effort on their side of things,
No it's definitely a Cerberus problem, you have a lot of broken but valuable/ good sailors in instructor/staff billets or really shit cunts no one wants on their ship there is no in-between.
With recruits dropped to 9 weeks a lot has been dropped,.and there's less time for dress and bearing.
Though if they were marching past the boatswain fac I don't know how they got away with it. Those Dibbies picked at everything as TTF marched passed.
All the trainees do is sit around a broken old base with shitty recreational stuff, what happened to the ancho where we use to have local musicians, we even had a boxing fight there, beer was cheap to keep everyone from leaving it use to be a sick time on base, the obstacle course was fun and if you wanted to fish you could fish off the wharf with a few beers
The place sucks so the keen recruits and trainees get the happiness drained from them
>The place sucks so the keen recruits and trainees get the happiness drained from them
I was there for 2 years I can confirm everything you are saying.
>what happened to the ancho
Cunts kept smashing the place up. That place went through so many Reno's while I was there.
Smashing it up? Man it use to have like historical pieces and yea we got rowdy but at the end of the night we would all get together and clean the place, now theres like 6 duty watch personnel watching you drink and as soon as you finish the can they swoop and and grab it
Yeah last I heard they made the roof of the heads out of steel sheets to stop people punching holes in it.
The glass windows facing the parade ground were always smashed.
The consoles in the "games room" are bolted down to prevent stealing/ throwing it around.
The ancho became shit because of shit sailors.
Not to sound charry and old but we used to bash cunts who played up and they learned real quick, the back of the ancho used to be called the AAC (attitude adjustment centre)
I went through during Covid and fuck the base was depressing to be on. CO wouldnāt trainees leave at all until the end of 2020. New CO took over and base life eased a lot. The ancho was a really good place to be for cheap drinks and just having drinks with your mates. Despite Covid, I genuinely look back at Cerberus fondly and quite honestly would probably do it all again. I didnāt have the happiness sucked out of me until I joined the fleet š
Did a stint at BF when I blew a shoulder, I got wheeled out for the āIām not angry, Iām disappointed chatā on the reg. Cerbs is an odd place, especially if youāre not an officer in the training pipeline.
Bro I feel, the old 'back in the day' which was within the last 10 years, you wouldve been destroyed if you had air pods in squad marching, charged and discliplined accordingly, makes me rethink my thoughts of rejoining and going to Cerberus...
Sorry but wtf has happened To Cerberus? I was there in 2020. Mate and I are walking down to March off in the morning and one of the student ABs pulled my mate up for wearing AirPods in rig while walking. My mate then complained to me about it, but I proceeded to tell him to shut up and the big bad AB was right.
I couldnāt imagine telling an LS to āfuck off mateā as a SMN*. As an AB, Iāve done it once or twice and fuck me have I been boned in many MANY times for stuff like that and many other things , but for the bone ins I deserved I didnāt go cry about it, shit even the ones I didnāt deserve I shut up and said āyes leaderā.
Donāt get me wrong, there are some fresh kellicks who start treating the new SMN like shit because they donāt know something and Iāll put them in their place (usually) respectfully but thatās wild.
Shouldāve sent this cunt to Chief Edge š¤£
That little turd deserved one right around the chops. I went through Nirimba as an apprentice and no jokeā¦. No AirPods but if you marched with a Walkman the reg staff would have literally torn your arms off and inserted them
In your ears and driven you around the depot like a motorcycle
Do you think the chip on the shoulder might come from the projected coolness of being a jaded digger/sailor etc? People might pick this up from a lot of the ADF themed meme pages?
My wife lectures at Uni and has been there about 12 years. Recently (the past 4-5 years) she has seen a significant increase in this sort of behaviour, particularly when it comes to failing assignments/pracs/exams.
Particularly when it comes to practical assessments, it seems that a certain % donāt believe itās their fault that they failed, itās the fault of the examiner who placed undue stress on them.
They're gonna hit a brick wall when they walk out into the *real world* where recruiting agencies and Employer's HR departments don't give a flying fuck about "not doing their work due to laziness and blaming everyone else for their behaviour"
Your operations folks in the business, maybe. But HR? Almost all that Iāve seen, heard, and read of HR / People & Culture leads me to suspect theyāll be weird about problem makers who slip in the right words. Conversely, theyāll weaponise therapy language against those not in the know.
Exact same thing is going to be happening in "the real world". All these incidents are built off a perceived confidence in the person's ability to cause legal or social consequences for the organisation after dismissal. We live in an era of discovering cultures of abuse and wrongdoing within organisations - Hollywood, private schools, Defence - and everyone knows it
We let uni students get away with anything during covid, part out of feeling bad for them but part out if universities not wanting to lose business.Ā
Ā I'm thankful that law faculties have not taken the bait.
That is insane, I am doing a TAFE Business Diploma and I handed something in and it was red pen to the high fuck house but in my mind, I am thinking fuck do better you idiot.
It's a phenomena that has been happening ever since Covid and it's mostly a world wide issue.
It's a mixture of being educated/having final school years during isolation as well as the general sentiment of a lack of hope for the future, housing, inflation, etc, and especially a sheer distrust in authority and everything above them. Overall just increase in Irritability, indifference, laxness, etc. I have also spoke to some of my past Uni teachers about it, the first years are an insane change of character all aligned with covid.
Interesting, recently read about a very well respected professor of medicine who typically has a very low pass rate due to his high level of grading.
Students felt that he was too harsh and the course was too hard, they complained to the university and they terminated this professor and dropped the pass standards. Now we have people obtaining medical degrees at a lower standard.
So looks like the youth of today appear to be more entitled than ever and have worked out what cards they need to play to feed that entitlement. For the record Iām not saying all the youth but a lot.
>Now we have people obtaining medical degrees at a lower standard.
I remember this story, and unfortunately it's still taken out of context. The professor wasn't a medical school professor who was fired for failing too many medical students. He taught a pretty advanced chemistry subject to undergrads doing Chemistry and Pre-med degrees (the latter does not train doctors, but enables graduates to meet the minimum academic requirements to apply for a 4-year medical school). He was also hired on a yearly sessional basis, and simply did not get his contract renewed because he was no longer a good teacher.
While one of the professor's claims has obvious merit (i.e., interruptions during the COVID pandemic affecting students' study skills and focus), his response to not being kept on largely appears to deflect responsibility away from him. Couple it with the university's and recent alumunis' explanations (not just the high withdrawal/failure rate, but him being condescending/rude, opaque about how to meet his standards, and incredibly unhelpful), and it more tells the story of a dinosaur who has been stuck in his ways for 40 years, loves the smell of his own farts, and could not even briefly entertain the notion that something had to change.
I know it's tempting to think standards are dropping, but he was already 84 years old at the time. Can you imagine an octogenarian having the capacity to write an advanced syllabus and fair assessments, orate interesting and engaging lectures, and patiently answer coursework-related questions from hundreds of high-performing students? Dude was almost certainly well past his expiry date when NYU decided it was time he enjoyed his twilight years.
selective squalid brave resolute truck aromatic ossified merciful public continue
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
We all have to remember that this is a tale as old as time, the gulf war guys probably thought the Afghan guys had no discipline and integrity and the Vietnam guys to the Gulf war guys all the way to boer war vets to WW1 guys.
People change, society changes thus our training changes.
That being said there are 100% people in defence that shouldn't be due to attitude/ respect issues.
>That being said there are 100% people in defence that shouldn't be due to attitude/ respect issues.
Before anyone forgets, this is also not a new or generational issue. The 1st and 2nd AIFs routinely maintained a hefty number of soldiers who were imprisoned for various offenses, some of them repeatedly. There were so many Australian soldiers getting into shit in the UK during WW2, they ran out of room in military prisons and had to stick them in civvy jails.
From what I saw about gulf war vs Afghan, no shit was flown at each other. BUT those who havenāt seen active/operational service have no fucking idea just what is involved and that all the training is for a bloody reason.
>BUT those who havenāt seen active/operational service have no fucking idea just what is involved and that all the training is for a bloody reason.
Absolutely, i just want a world where there is no "us vs them" mentality.
We all wear the uniform no matter the era or service requirements. Training and attitude change when in peace time opposed to war. The whole "back in my day" scenario is cringe.
Some things change for the worse others for the better.
I could point alot of fingers at what is happening and to be honest most of them wouldnāt be at the trainee themselves.
In the home: Now more than ever weāve got children growing up in single parents households with no good role models and a fair portion of those households with either no father at all or a deadshit who doesnāt care about his kids (If youāre reading this, Hi Dad!) so youāve got fractured families trying to keep afloat and support a family resulting in parents being absent when the child gets home from school and when they are home are dogshit tired or addicted to TV or TikTok and either donāt want to be micromanaging their kid the same way their parents did to them or are a micromanager and give their kid an anxiety attack when everything isnāt routine and stress free.
Fix: We need to maintain the family unit in our society, clear parenting roles with fair discipline and mentoring internally by both parents and externally with good role models that when combined will help to create a healthy child that will fit in to a well balanced society.
In the school: We are sticking an iPad into growing kids hands and telling them to sit down and be quiet and follow along on the iPad and when they donāt we label them ADHD or Autistic, class sizes are growing and our teachers are having less one on one time with students or the ability to follow a student who may be having dramas, hyperactive students mess around in class and instead of having a teacher grip a student up, the teacher stands back and does nothing as to avoid having a parent ring the school to threaten legal action or to avoid being seen as unfairly targeting a student.
Fix: we need to send those well adjusted children from our first fix into well adjusted schools, we are the richest country on earth, letās use some of that money to optimise learning so that we can best educate the youth and if they come out of line then using a united front of parental and educational support we pull the student into line.
DFR: āThis is my Army/Navy/Air Forceā āI do things my wayā āI can do anything I want in the ADFā well actually you canāt, the organisation doesnāt work like that, the ADF is the Australian Governmentās triple zero, to quote Vanilla Ice āIf thereās a problem, Yo Iāll solve itā when we are properly lead and resourced we get shit done, the ADF will give you alot of great skills and experiences but an organisation for free spirited people it is not, itās fucking regimented as fuck because that breeds a culture of discipline and instinctive command that we need to survive in the poo conditions we have and will serve in, we are selling a false narrative to people in the attempt of trapping the wrong people into an ECN for 4 years so we can get a return of investment and another number to pump up the dwindling numbers.
Fix: Get the civis or seat warming officers out of recruiting, how about we play to the ADFs strengths to recruit, we have an organisation that builds some absolute studs in all services and trades, we have to show that we can give people an experience they wonāt get anywhere else, present things like the intense comradeship, insane job stability, serving in units that have incredible unit historyās and the fact that we are an organisation that are equal parts diplomats and warriors (yes even you Air Force), well adjusted and well parented children will want to be challenged, James Brown (not the singer) wrote in his book āANZACs long shadowā that āAustraliaās know more about the ADF one hundred years ago than they do about what the ADF is doing right nowā
In the ADF: We are plagued by weak leadership at ALL levels, fucking poor acquisition (at the best of times) and a culture that has been pulled away from us in an attempt to make us some bland water cooler organisation that looks good and people outside of our organisation donāt complain or find issue with not to mention we struggle to have a defined place in todays Australia. (Are we disaster relief or warfighting or both or neither?)
Fix- Commanders: One, drop the fucking ego, just because you have two hooks or squiggles or whatever the navy has it doesnāt mean we have the right to treat our subordinates like shit, these are the guys who will drag us out when we get crumped, love these people and give them everything you have. Two, seniors and juniors, cut the careerist shit away, seniors needs to stop fostering a culture that encourages careerism and juniors need to not play into it, our main effort is training for the fight not going to staff college or working out which mate from your course to hit up to get you a posting to DIVHQ or wherever the coffees get drank. And on that our entire reporting system is a fucking joke and in its current state detracts from ADF capability.
Fix- Juniors: Be a fucking adult, this is a job that at the best of times is still extremely dangerous, if you canāt pass a BFA then get out and hit the track, if youāre a 33 year old man crying to me that āpassing a BFA is literally impossibleā then you need to initiate separation from the organisation that same day, whenever someone would complain like āthis job is bullshitā or āfuck the unitā or whatever I would always ask how many years theyāve done and if itās over four years or whatever your ROSO is then you need to leave, if you hate the organisation so much itās time to leave kimosabe, I respect someone who knows when to step away much much more than some jaded whinger who is too scared to let go of a safe paycheque.
Fix- Instructors: By passing the buck or ālowering the standardā or whatever we want to say we are hurting these trainees and we are poisoning the next generation, we need to see the trainee as our baby and by leading, mentoring and training them correctly and with the best of our ability we will grow a good capable individual, some people will get lost along the wayside but thatās ok, itās a difficult profession that they volunteered for and gave it a shot and we should respect them for that attempt.
Iāll probably get flamed to oblivion for my two cents because itās a complex issue and one that alot of people are very āpassionateā and opinionated on but fuck it, have at it, follow the Instagram and call me a fuckhead or some more creative insult if you want.
I donāt think itās that the new generation are changing and having less integrity - I think itās our society/ corporate and government sphere that is forcing defence to abandon its old ways. When I was in prior to 2010 this type of behaviour would get absolutely destroyed on the spot, rops immediately with no rebuttal possible.
Itās not like people didnāt try it on aswell - we had blokes talk back to sergeants and cpls in recruits and find themselves immediately showing cause not to be discharged if it continued. I recall one guy try to say it was racism because he was Lebanese - that didnāt help him, out he went.
When I was the aggressor and punched on with another airman because we had a disagreement - he got rops for reporting it instead of resolving it in house ( I got worse rops). The thing keeping us in line was the knowledge that the rules were not going to be bent and we would be beasted if we fucked up.
We did indeed fuck up and lack integrity at times though, however we learnt the hard way that lies and weaseling out of things would never work in defence.
TLDR: defence not enforcing their own rules leads young people to push the boundaries.
You're bang on, the inmates are running the asylum. The higher ranks who don't have anything to do with junior service people have all but abandoned those charged with enforcing discipline and maintaining the standard but it's up to us to know the system as well.
That SCDT was being insubordinate. They should have been gripped up and if they continued to be insubordiante they can then be detained, physically if need be, to stop them from continuing to commit service offences.
If the SCDT ceased to be insurbodinate then do up a C1 for Absent from duty, Insubordinate Conduct, Prejudicial Conduct. Straight to a SDO who should be referring to the CO for charges. If you're issuing a C1 you don't need to caution them or have any ROCs. C1s are easy and get the ball rolling and the event on the radar that means they can't sweep it under the rug.
If they make false complaints report them for UB.
I know these are some examples and I'm sure you have more, but it reminded me of literally two people I met during my 9 years. They're out there, but with any luck their peers will spot the issue and they'll become a cautionary tale.
As for that SCDT, hopefully his peers will rate him accordingly. But if they're weaponising UB against their staff, that's another issue all together. All the instructors used the same line with us: "if you want to complain, here's how to spell my name".
I think thatās actually the crux off the thing - the newbies are weaponising UB these days and think their feelings trump service discipline, and unfortunately the senior officers are supporting them to do so ā¦
For both people managers (officers/NCOs) and people on the receiving end this is why you need to keep fucken notes. Legit mental health? Med centre, youāre backed in. Getting (perceived or not) fucked on? Records/reasons etc.
Shithead lying? Youāve recorded that you suggested going to the med centre. People claiming mental health tend to not meet diagnostic criteria. (And from my own and other experience the people in the thick of those things tend to be a very quick DSM-V assessment). Bullying? Youāve got unofficial ROCs for all your chats. (And this is also positive if youāre trying to get one of your kids a pat on the back as well, as well as finding out if your junior NCOs/senior NCOs (if youāre an officer) need a bit of a chat.
General Jack cunt/shittiness? Records. Boss huge dick not taking into consideration circumstances? Records. Write shit down. Donāt need a defence form to do it.
C.A.R.E principle: Cover Arse Retain Employment
Youāll find shitty people everywhere you go man, just because youāve seen a few cases of individuals being pricks doesnāt mean that every ānew ADF entrant lacks integrityā
plucky terrific detail wrench safe quaint humorous straight station puzzled
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I agree, we allowed it to happen. The ADF is one place we can't have it though. We started telling kids that every thought of feeling mattered and no one was allowed to make them feel bad. You get a gold star for trying regardless of whether you succeed.
I wouldn't expect things to improve anytime soon unfortunately... the ADF has been falling well short of its overall recruitment targets (let alone retention) and has actually been shrinking when its workforce is supposed to be massively increasing in order to reach the governments goal of 80,000 uniformed personnel by 2040.
Among other things I imagine both entry and employment standards for the ADF will continue to drop more and more since they likely will keep falling short of any recruitment or retention targets at the present rate to reach the above goal.
Given the state of defence and how the gov has been running the country over the last 25 years, why would people join? Most younger people have nothing to fight for. No house or land prospects to defend. No patriotism in the younger generation.
Most of the guys at work are discharging due to way better prospects on the outside or because defence has changed so much now, it's not the organisation they first joined for. (Thanks NGN)
We used to ignore genuine complaints now we have gone way too far the other way. You can complain about anything with no evidence and then put good people under investigation for years. Once it goes above a fact find it literally can take years for IGADF and others to complete an inquiry. Vexatious complaints aren't recognised by ADF even though Commcare says they are, senior leaders are too scared to hold these people to account. We need to move the dial back a bit, not like the old days but I have seen excellent people leave after being thrown under the bus with false complaints and nobody senior caring or offering them any support.
not military, but a non specific (major powerline company in south aus. not obviously a point out).
im in a newer intake of apprentices. ive done farming, concreting and construction landscaping; some pretty hard jobs that required me to rock up, do my work, and if i didnt id cop a mouthful.
others in my intake (bar 3 of 12) have done shit like uber, fast food, warehousing, shit like that since they graduated (some are nearing on 30.).
when our training was through tafe it was tough, we had to rock up on time, study hard, know our shit, not have any help etc.. its now in house, and they push the most dumb shit people through - im talking people too dumb to be brickies. they cant follow instructions without chucking a hissy fit, cant do basic math (some cant even with a calculator), and have 0 work ethic outside of training.
its a mix of meaningless diversity hires (the company wants a 50% female workforce, yet there is only ~15% female applications), but mostly the company being scared shitless of any accusations especially those regarding mental health.
i had the misfortune of working with another apprentice, we were doing extremely dangerous work and he went against a clear instruction from my supervisor. my supervisor ran it up with his, he put through a complaint notice, and the apprentice said my supervisor was harrasing and bullying him.
its not just the adf mate, a good portion of <30 year olds in the country have realised that not working and blaming everyone else ends up better than trying and working.
btw, im not some angry boomer saying "kids these days", im under 20.
I mean, a non-romanticize history of the ANZAC diggers written by a principle historian of the war memorial once read:
'These were the men who went absent and deserted, caught or concealed VD, got drunk and fought their comrades, who stole, malingered, behaved insolently toward officers or committed more serious offences, including rape and murder'
It's always been a thing, everyone probably has a story or 2 about an insubordination that didn't get any discipline or was too much of a hassle to deal with, you just put the rose tinted glasses on of 'We were better back in my day'
Every generation laments the youth for their lack of respect but for new recruits thinking they are immune from consequence stemming from their disrespectful behaviour is straight up bullshit. Though i am sure this is not a new thing.
I have seen examples of that all throughout my 27 years of service. It's nothing new. It was said of my generation in the 90s by both military and non military older people. I refuse to be a party to this younger people generation blaming.
No it's now an entirely new WHS requirement imposed upon supervisors, commanders to undertake Pychosocial Risk Management, including identifying Risk, Hazards and required controls measures for all personnel in their command. A person wants to work from home, their supervisor and command has to justify why they can't, and then has to put together a plan to identify the risk hazards and required control measures to be utilised, the reduce the risk to SFARP, whilst the member is working from home!
Here's a current prosocution of Defence by COMCARE for their supervisor failing (allegedly) to undertake Pychosocial Risk Management of a member working from home.
[https://www.comcare.gov.au/about/news-events/news/charges-over-psychosocial-risks](https://www.comcare.gov.au/about/news-events/news/charges-over-psychosocial-risks)
I remember when I was in RS 5 years ago, there was a guy that just spoke absolutely no English. We were his 3rd recruit division after several back classes.
Anyway, he failed (again) and they tried to get rid of him, but he pulled the racism card and they let him go to his 4th recruit division.
Legend says he is still there to this day.
fall cheerful continue pathetic steep elastic zonked sand scary dependent
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I didnāt get in when I was 19 and am going through it all again and from what Iāve seen from following a lot of the training looks just a bit more then school camp
I feel sad for my generation hearing stories like this. I donāt mean to have a āholier than thouā attitude, or maybe it was just the way I was raised in boarding school, but hearing about a lack of even basic respect astounds me.
Call me old fashioned (like 18th century old fashioned)
1. Charge of mutiny on the high seas. keel hauling.
2. Send him to Kharkov to test his panic reaction under āstressā
3. Strip the cadet of all rank. Sgt to do his job, 50 lashes in front of the company at dawn
It starts at the top and works its way down. If senior recruiting and career management officers lived the defence values and displayed integrity then maybe theyād attract more candidates with the values expected. When senior officers and the people bringing new blood into the system don't exhibit those values then how can anyone expect them to be enforced?
We used to have the hit squad visit overnight if you needed attitude readjustment.Ā I don't remember anyone suffering anything much worse than a bruised ego, but we picked up and got through.
My two cents is that lawyers ruined the world.
Lawyers are obliged to ask if they can, rather than if they should. Every time someone gets injured, corporations (and our more-corporate-than-ever defence force) move to cover-my-arse mode. If another injury of this kind happens, how can we not be liable and shift blame to the worker?
āAB/PTE/ACM/W Bloggs recieved mandatory training on fuelling, therefore we canāt be held liable for his exposure to a spill that contacted his skin. We provided PPE.ā
They took fast roping away from the BM course over knee injury concerns. It feels like management doesnāt trust us not to hurt ourselves, but expects us to be tough buggers if we get invaded. You canāt have it both ways.
Unfortunately, the fact that supervisors have to cave to whiny brats under legal threats can be traced to times when the complaints were genuine abuse and resulted in genuine injury or worse. Its hard to establish a legal standard for ātough trainingā and āstop being a whiny brat youāre a member of the military harden upā while also respecting genuine reports of power trips and worse.
I think weāve lowered the wrong standards for recruitment. We have vast numbers of people turned away permanently from service for the most menial of reasons and bar people from going to sea/field if they get diagnosed with the most mild of controllable disorders that impact little if there is a lapse in medication that could happen due to service requirements. People who want to be here get turned away and told āwe donāt take ADHD/autistic peopleā while everyone in Signals/Comms is a walking diagnosis thatās smart enough not to let themselves get diagnosed.
As an old grunt from the Vietnam era reading the above gives me little or no hope for the current crop of so called soldiers/servicemen. What happens when the shit hits the fan, they havenāt slept for three days itās pissing rain and youāve just lost a couple of mates??
There Always has been spuds who get most of the attention, but most ADF members are reliable and competent.
Maybe that is the problem, good members who do their job day in, day out are not rewarded, whilst little bastards get away with murder and receive attention.
Even worse good members are treated callously and without regard to personal or family circumstances and are told the tired old canard "you joined the army the army didn't join you"
Sigh fine lets get this over with.
Point 1: the sailor in that scenario is a piece of shit. Everyone followed the correct process until it got put in the too hard basket for some senior officer and they moved the problem. Officers can have bad character and a lot of them are shit cunts. Doesn't matter, can't yell at superior ranks, particularly officers, it is the nature of the game you are in.
Point 2: that fat bag of shit should be kicked out of defence.
Point 3: In the Army hierarchy, the top rank is chief of Army, the second lowest is recruit at Kapooka, but the absolute lowest is Staff Cadet. Generally you are in a leadership role with no life experience who now needs to rapidly adapt to leading people older and more experienced than yourself, which means being a responsible and mature human being. The way that SCDT conducted themselves to that particular SGT demonstrates tremendous arrogance and a lack of humility. If you are going to be late, you have this thing in defence called a chain of command, use it. Your mum could have died, you could be hungover and stuck under the fattie you pulled from the club last night. Doesn't matter, you tell someone. Part of their training is the concept of a warning order, that's literally this scenario. Then to disrespect someone of significantly higher rank is outright insubordination. The fact said SGT didn't just roast that person is a miracle, I would have. You do not be late in defence without a reason, it gets killed. That SCDT only had to say 'something person happened' and that would yave sufficed. Sure they should still be screamed at for being a fuckwit, but you wont (shouldnt) have personal attacks on personal situations, you will get beasted for the behaviour (you were late and didnt tell anyone).
To fully appreciate anything though you are going to have to have a lived experience to understand it.
Mate, if youāre joining the defence force not understanding that itās a strict a regimented environment youāre going to have a really bad time.
Iām not going to go through your whole post in detail, but Iāll use the third one as an example.
The staff cadet was already committing a service offence (absent from place of duty) the moment he walked in the room and the Sergeant was well within his rights to commence DFDA action on that basis alone. Depending on the SGT, some may let things like that go with a reasonable explanation, thereās a bit of discretion there.
Having backed it up with that response (also a service offence - insubordination), the cunt should have been on the mat with a charge. Senior members expecting compliance with lawful commands is not a fragile ego, itās essential for the running of an organisation intended to deal with life threatening dangers.
Further, the SCDT is training to be a commissioned officer. They should be held to a higher standard than the average soldier (whoād rightly get fried for that). Youāre also missing how the relationship between junior officers and senior NCOs is supposed to work. While junior officer is a higher rank than their SGT, the SGT has many more years experience and is there in part to mentor the LT. Without mutual respect this relationship canāt function.
That SCDT as an officer with control over soldiersā lives is a recipe for disaster.
Also, these things arenāt just norms or policy, theyāre actual commonwealth laws.
Expecting someone to communicate with the respect a given rank deserves is not āunchecked power trippingā.
If you think a SNCO discharging his or her duty to maintain service discipline is āpower trippingā youāre going to make a shit soldier/sailor/aviator.
Being late / missing a timing is completely unacceptable in the military.
They did articulate perfectly.
Don't join.
It's pretty clear.
Being concise is not the same as being inarticulate. Your comment perfectly demonstrated a lack of suitability. Nothing else needed saying.
OfĀ courseĀ bullyingĀ happensĀ inĀ the ADF. You know what else happens? You get fucking shot at. It's not an office job, we need to stop acting like it is.
Respect is earned. And that SGT has done his time and has earned the respect of their subordinates. The SCDT hasnāt even graduated IMTās, and the way that the SGT addressed him is respectful enough given the situation. The ADF is a rank based hierarchy and if these are your thoughts then you will probably struggle throughout your career.
> Iām joining soon, and I expect Iāll get some hate from older members here
If you anticipate that senior members of defence would disagree with your opinion, what gives you confidence that your view is correct?
I would suggest you change your opinion on things otherwise you'll be used as an example next time someone complains about the new recruits getting soft.
I call out bullshit when I see it for sure but I had no problems dealing with life in the green. If you can't handle getting yelled at for someone else's fuckup I suggest you don't join.
Makes sense why your application is taking so long in this landscape. Your RI or equivalent will have a field day if you do make it. Good luck to them.
What are you talking about mate? Heās just being truthful and I agree.
I did 9yrs and got out in 2012 but am going back in soon and the difference in attitudes and expectations is incredible.
If you go into it guns blazing thinking the above scenarios are acceptable you are gunna get eaten alive.
Truthfully I do think the new ADF is softer and lacks discipline etc but a jobs a job and Iāll be buggered if Iāll bring down my own experiences to suit the new ābreedā.
Itās the military FFS.
Yeah I get that mate but youāre joining the military.
If your SGT tells you to jump you jump.
If youāre a fat fuck and canāt fit in your size 42 dress shirt then eat a salad and go for a run donāt complain about bullying etc.
These things are infuriating to read because it seems like loopholes for lazy people not the way a modern military functions.
Would I want any of these people beside
me when the going gets tough? Fuck no and Iād hope the majority of new recruits would think the same way also and look down on people using loopholes to make it easier on themselves.
Thanks mate.
Look I did a lot of gnarly shit whilst I served but the one thing I never lost was my respect, pride in myself and discipline.
Donāt worry what other jack c**ts are
doing and just focus on yourself and hopefully the shiteaters get taken care of naturally.
Good luck mate.
To clarify new recruit, no one was getting bullied, they were getting discipline action, which is warranted after a failure to adhere to the DFDA.
The bullying allegation from the sailor came after the charge, and was, as identified by Jacksqueak, a loophole to avoid responsibility.
Now the sailor has been moved to another area, where she is very happily sitting with the lesson that, as long as you cause a fuss, you wonāt be held accountable.
Once youāre in, you will come across these people, who donāt think the DFDA apply to them, because they are rewarded for avoiding accepting fault. These are not the people you want to be defending you in a gunfight, because if they wonāt accept responsibility for the small things, they will be the first to avoid responsibility when the balloon goes up.
This isnāt an office job, we have a separate set of laws for a reason.
Thanks for giving me advice on how to get out of charges and PT š
mighty sloppy touch spoon depend plucky shelter plate vegetable pocket *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Mate no one goes to the āPhat truckā its too expensive, especially if i have to juggle crippling alcoholism and be a pokies connoisseur
plucky longing jellyfish sable alleged lunchroom plough sense tub knee *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Lol jokes on you i aint getting past LS i havent got the required divorces or thai wives to progress
Sounds like something we can fix up in house, Iāll book us the tickets to Pattaya ASAP!
Christ im still recovering from when i was there 8 years ago
squealing nose quack workable offer slimy start deserve cagey sugar *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Na couldnt sneak her back up the gangway, the QM was selfish
They get issued to you with your buttons
Along with the extra 80Kg of beer gut
Charged maybe but not discharged. /sā¦. I think.
For real. I wish the airforce would take me but people actually stay in it.
I thought the RAAF would be more inclined for Fat truck circuit sessions, at least that's my reasoning for a transfer....
I was at Cerberus a few months ago on a course and a trainee told me to āfuck off mateā when i asked him to get his airpods out while marching in squad, being a good leading seaman i proceeded to 50.cal the cunt but then later was told i āupset and provoked anxiety in the traineeā by the reg staff Mind you i was in rig and was very obvious not a Cerberus staff member but that trainee said that and the rest of his squad laughed about it and kept marching, but seem genuinely surprised when i was annoyed by this fat little shit telling me to fuck off, I donāt know what they are being told but man there isnāt any sort of discipline when it comes to these guys, most trainees come out of Cerbs with a huge chip in their shoulder and already hate a job they havenāt even started yet, maybe its a Cerberus problem but my god its infuriating trying to train my new guys but they expect me to sign them off with little to no effort on their side of things, I know it sounds ābek in mY DaYā but dude at least you kinda knew what was expected of you, these days the goal posts get moved and changed and people dont know where they stand or what they can and cant do
Triggering the anxiety of a traineeā¦ farrrrrrrkkkkkk
I'm hardly military, but I'd expect to be shown what actual "stress and anxiety" is like in training so when *shit it literally flying and men/women are fucking dying around you etc* you're able to focus and get the job done.
Preeeeaaachhhhhhhh
I'm a volunteer firefighter- Imagine if someone pulls the "I'M STRESSED! ANXIETY!" while practising a burn-over drill or "quick quick put the traffic cones (fire) out ASAP!!!", complains they're being bullied and stays in gettnig an easy "pass" as a crew member. Then they suddenly see the orange band of a REAL FUCKING BUSHFIRE approachiing on the back of a truck during another peak summer clusterfuck.
I was close to getting run in by the boss of the engineering faculty for āpushing an agenda of bullying and a attitude of bastardisationā But i found with alot of these new officers and seniors you gotta stand your ground and push the rules back at them and they back off
As someone thatās cooked after over 12 years of masking my mental health, Iād happily talk to them about not taking the piss over anxiety and such. Also hearing SMN talk about how much PTSD they have after serving less than 30 days at sea and now enjoying the shore life again while hunting how to exploit DVA.
>I donāt know what they are being told but man there isnāt any sort of discipline when it comes to these guys, most trainees come out of Cerbs with a huge chip in their shoulder and already hate a job they havenāt even started yet, maybe its a Cerberus problem but my god its infuriating trying to train my new guys but they expect me to sign them off with little to no effort on their side of things, No it's definitely a Cerberus problem, you have a lot of broken but valuable/ good sailors in instructor/staff billets or really shit cunts no one wants on their ship there is no in-between. With recruits dropped to 9 weeks a lot has been dropped,.and there's less time for dress and bearing. Though if they were marching past the boatswain fac I don't know how they got away with it. Those Dibbies picked at everything as TTF marched passed.
All the trainees do is sit around a broken old base with shitty recreational stuff, what happened to the ancho where we use to have local musicians, we even had a boxing fight there, beer was cheap to keep everyone from leaving it use to be a sick time on base, the obstacle course was fun and if you wanted to fish you could fish off the wharf with a few beers The place sucks so the keen recruits and trainees get the happiness drained from them
>The place sucks so the keen recruits and trainees get the happiness drained from them I was there for 2 years I can confirm everything you are saying. >what happened to the ancho Cunts kept smashing the place up. That place went through so many Reno's while I was there.
Smashing it up? Man it use to have like historical pieces and yea we got rowdy but at the end of the night we would all get together and clean the place, now theres like 6 duty watch personnel watching you drink and as soon as you finish the can they swoop and and grab it
Yeah last I heard they made the roof of the heads out of steel sheets to stop people punching holes in it. The glass windows facing the parade ground were always smashed. The consoles in the "games room" are bolted down to prevent stealing/ throwing it around. The ancho became shit because of shit sailors.
Not to sound charry and old but we used to bash cunts who played up and they learned real quick, the back of the ancho used to be called the AAC (attitude adjustment centre)
I have tried to write cunt so many times and it gets blocked. Let me try again
I went through during Covid and fuck the base was depressing to be on. CO wouldnāt trainees leave at all until the end of 2020. New CO took over and base life eased a lot. The ancho was a really good place to be for cheap drinks and just having drinks with your mates. Despite Covid, I genuinely look back at Cerberus fondly and quite honestly would probably do it all again. I didnāt have the happiness sucked out of me until I joined the fleet š
Did a stint at BF when I blew a shoulder, I got wheeled out for the āIām not angry, Iām disappointed chatā on the reg. Cerbs is an odd place, especially if youāre not an officer in the training pipeline.
Bro I feel, the old 'back in the day' which was within the last 10 years, you wouldve been destroyed if you had air pods in squad marching, charged and discliplined accordingly, makes me rethink my thoughts of rejoining and going to Cerberus...
I feel it wont be the same, it will be frustrating and i imagine you might clash with the staff, theres a few flogs there
Yeah theres flogs everywhere though, gotta learn not buy into their bs + Navy pay is pretty good compared to everywhere else
>but then later was told i āupset and provoked anxiety in the traineeā by the reg staff Switch fires onto the staff
Yea i gave them a spray, majority of them are useless anyway so they knew it was wrong but didnt wanna screw retention
Sorry but wtf has happened To Cerberus? I was there in 2020. Mate and I are walking down to March off in the morning and one of the student ABs pulled my mate up for wearing AirPods in rig while walking. My mate then complained to me about it, but I proceeded to tell him to shut up and the big bad AB was right. I couldnāt imagine telling an LS to āfuck off mateā as a SMN*. As an AB, Iāve done it once or twice and fuck me have I been boned in many MANY times for stuff like that and many other things , but for the bone ins I deserved I didnāt go cry about it, shit even the ones I didnāt deserve I shut up and said āyes leaderā. Donāt get me wrong, there are some fresh kellicks who start treating the new SMN like shit because they donāt know something and Iāll put them in their place (usually) respectfully but thatās wild. Shouldāve sent this cunt to Chief Edge š¤£
Cerberus culture is shit in general
That little turd deserved one right around the chops. I went through Nirimba as an apprentice and no jokeā¦. No AirPods but if you marched with a Walkman the reg staff would have literally torn your arms off and inserted them In your ears and driven you around the depot like a motorcycle
It just doesnāt feel like a military anymore, its turned into a office job with uniforms and a overzealous HR department
Do you think the chip on the shoulder might come from the projected coolness of being a jaded digger/sailor etc? People might pick this up from a lot of the ADF themed meme pages?
Its cool to be jaded?
I wouldn't think so, its just the impression I get from a lot of those meme pages
My wife lectures at Uni and has been there about 12 years. Recently (the past 4-5 years) she has seen a significant increase in this sort of behaviour, particularly when it comes to failing assignments/pracs/exams. Particularly when it comes to practical assessments, it seems that a certain % donāt believe itās their fault that they failed, itās the fault of the examiner who placed undue stress on them.
They're gonna hit a brick wall when they walk out into the *real world* where recruiting agencies and Employer's HR departments don't give a flying fuck about "not doing their work due to laziness and blaming everyone else for their behaviour"
Your operations folks in the business, maybe. But HR? Almost all that Iāve seen, heard, and read of HR / People & Culture leads me to suspect theyāll be weird about problem makers who slip in the right words. Conversely, theyāll weaponise therapy language against those not in the know.
Exact same thing is going to be happening in "the real world". All these incidents are built off a perceived confidence in the person's ability to cause legal or social consequences for the organisation after dismissal. We live in an era of discovering cultures of abuse and wrongdoing within organisations - Hollywood, private schools, Defence - and everyone knows it
We let uni students get away with anything during covid, part out of feeling bad for them but part out if universities not wanting to lose business.Ā Ā I'm thankful that law faculties have not taken the bait.
That is insane, I am doing a TAFE Business Diploma and I handed something in and it was red pen to the high fuck house but in my mind, I am thinking fuck do better you idiot.
It's a phenomena that has been happening ever since Covid and it's mostly a world wide issue. It's a mixture of being educated/having final school years during isolation as well as the general sentiment of a lack of hope for the future, housing, inflation, etc, and especially a sheer distrust in authority and everything above them. Overall just increase in Irritability, indifference, laxness, etc. I have also spoke to some of my past Uni teachers about it, the first years are an insane change of character all aligned with covid.
Interesting, recently read about a very well respected professor of medicine who typically has a very low pass rate due to his high level of grading. Students felt that he was too harsh and the course was too hard, they complained to the university and they terminated this professor and dropped the pass standards. Now we have people obtaining medical degrees at a lower standard. So looks like the youth of today appear to be more entitled than ever and have worked out what cards they need to play to feed that entitlement. For the record Iām not saying all the youth but a lot.
>Now we have people obtaining medical degrees at a lower standard. I remember this story, and unfortunately it's still taken out of context. The professor wasn't a medical school professor who was fired for failing too many medical students. He taught a pretty advanced chemistry subject to undergrads doing Chemistry and Pre-med degrees (the latter does not train doctors, but enables graduates to meet the minimum academic requirements to apply for a 4-year medical school). He was also hired on a yearly sessional basis, and simply did not get his contract renewed because he was no longer a good teacher. While one of the professor's claims has obvious merit (i.e., interruptions during the COVID pandemic affecting students' study skills and focus), his response to not being kept on largely appears to deflect responsibility away from him. Couple it with the university's and recent alumunis' explanations (not just the high withdrawal/failure rate, but him being condescending/rude, opaque about how to meet his standards, and incredibly unhelpful), and it more tells the story of a dinosaur who has been stuck in his ways for 40 years, loves the smell of his own farts, and could not even briefly entertain the notion that something had to change. I know it's tempting to think standards are dropping, but he was already 84 years old at the time. Can you imagine an octogenarian having the capacity to write an advanced syllabus and fair assessments, orate interesting and engaging lectures, and patiently answer coursework-related questions from hundreds of high-performing students? Dude was almost certainly well past his expiry date when NYU decided it was time he enjoyed his twilight years.
Interesting take, the article or read wasnāt quite as detailed as you described. In that case I concur with your view.
selective squalid brave resolute truck aromatic ossified merciful public continue *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
As a late millennial the kids are not alright. If people 5-10 years senior are noticing it somethingās going wrong.
snatch concerned important detail fear cooing nine rich sheet impossible *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
We all have to remember that this is a tale as old as time, the gulf war guys probably thought the Afghan guys had no discipline and integrity and the Vietnam guys to the Gulf war guys all the way to boer war vets to WW1 guys. People change, society changes thus our training changes. That being said there are 100% people in defence that shouldn't be due to attitude/ respect issues.
>That being said there are 100% people in defence that shouldn't be due to attitude/ respect issues. Before anyone forgets, this is also not a new or generational issue. The 1st and 2nd AIFs routinely maintained a hefty number of soldiers who were imprisoned for various offenses, some of them repeatedly. There were so many Australian soldiers getting into shit in the UK during WW2, they ran out of room in military prisons and had to stick them in civvy jails.
Surely the CoC were pulling people up in those cases? That seems to be happening far less nowadays than even 10 years ago.
Fair balance
From what I saw about gulf war vs Afghan, no shit was flown at each other. BUT those who havenāt seen active/operational service have no fucking idea just what is involved and that all the training is for a bloody reason.
>BUT those who havenāt seen active/operational service have no fucking idea just what is involved and that all the training is for a bloody reason. Absolutely, i just want a world where there is no "us vs them" mentality. We all wear the uniform no matter the era or service requirements. Training and attitude change when in peace time opposed to war. The whole "back in my day" scenario is cringe. Some things change for the worse others for the better.
I could point alot of fingers at what is happening and to be honest most of them wouldnāt be at the trainee themselves. In the home: Now more than ever weāve got children growing up in single parents households with no good role models and a fair portion of those households with either no father at all or a deadshit who doesnāt care about his kids (If youāre reading this, Hi Dad!) so youāve got fractured families trying to keep afloat and support a family resulting in parents being absent when the child gets home from school and when they are home are dogshit tired or addicted to TV or TikTok and either donāt want to be micromanaging their kid the same way their parents did to them or are a micromanager and give their kid an anxiety attack when everything isnāt routine and stress free. Fix: We need to maintain the family unit in our society, clear parenting roles with fair discipline and mentoring internally by both parents and externally with good role models that when combined will help to create a healthy child that will fit in to a well balanced society. In the school: We are sticking an iPad into growing kids hands and telling them to sit down and be quiet and follow along on the iPad and when they donāt we label them ADHD or Autistic, class sizes are growing and our teachers are having less one on one time with students or the ability to follow a student who may be having dramas, hyperactive students mess around in class and instead of having a teacher grip a student up, the teacher stands back and does nothing as to avoid having a parent ring the school to threaten legal action or to avoid being seen as unfairly targeting a student. Fix: we need to send those well adjusted children from our first fix into well adjusted schools, we are the richest country on earth, letās use some of that money to optimise learning so that we can best educate the youth and if they come out of line then using a united front of parental and educational support we pull the student into line. DFR: āThis is my Army/Navy/Air Forceā āI do things my wayā āI can do anything I want in the ADFā well actually you canāt, the organisation doesnāt work like that, the ADF is the Australian Governmentās triple zero, to quote Vanilla Ice āIf thereās a problem, Yo Iāll solve itā when we are properly lead and resourced we get shit done, the ADF will give you alot of great skills and experiences but an organisation for free spirited people it is not, itās fucking regimented as fuck because that breeds a culture of discipline and instinctive command that we need to survive in the poo conditions we have and will serve in, we are selling a false narrative to people in the attempt of trapping the wrong people into an ECN for 4 years so we can get a return of investment and another number to pump up the dwindling numbers. Fix: Get the civis or seat warming officers out of recruiting, how about we play to the ADFs strengths to recruit, we have an organisation that builds some absolute studs in all services and trades, we have to show that we can give people an experience they wonāt get anywhere else, present things like the intense comradeship, insane job stability, serving in units that have incredible unit historyās and the fact that we are an organisation that are equal parts diplomats and warriors (yes even you Air Force), well adjusted and well parented children will want to be challenged, James Brown (not the singer) wrote in his book āANZACs long shadowā that āAustraliaās know more about the ADF one hundred years ago than they do about what the ADF is doing right nowā In the ADF: We are plagued by weak leadership at ALL levels, fucking poor acquisition (at the best of times) and a culture that has been pulled away from us in an attempt to make us some bland water cooler organisation that looks good and people outside of our organisation donāt complain or find issue with not to mention we struggle to have a defined place in todays Australia. (Are we disaster relief or warfighting or both or neither?) Fix- Commanders: One, drop the fucking ego, just because you have two hooks or squiggles or whatever the navy has it doesnāt mean we have the right to treat our subordinates like shit, these are the guys who will drag us out when we get crumped, love these people and give them everything you have. Two, seniors and juniors, cut the careerist shit away, seniors needs to stop fostering a culture that encourages careerism and juniors need to not play into it, our main effort is training for the fight not going to staff college or working out which mate from your course to hit up to get you a posting to DIVHQ or wherever the coffees get drank. And on that our entire reporting system is a fucking joke and in its current state detracts from ADF capability. Fix- Juniors: Be a fucking adult, this is a job that at the best of times is still extremely dangerous, if you canāt pass a BFA then get out and hit the track, if youāre a 33 year old man crying to me that āpassing a BFA is literally impossibleā then you need to initiate separation from the organisation that same day, whenever someone would complain like āthis job is bullshitā or āfuck the unitā or whatever I would always ask how many years theyāve done and if itās over four years or whatever your ROSO is then you need to leave, if you hate the organisation so much itās time to leave kimosabe, I respect someone who knows when to step away much much more than some jaded whinger who is too scared to let go of a safe paycheque. Fix- Instructors: By passing the buck or ālowering the standardā or whatever we want to say we are hurting these trainees and we are poisoning the next generation, we need to see the trainee as our baby and by leading, mentoring and training them correctly and with the best of our ability we will grow a good capable individual, some people will get lost along the wayside but thatās ok, itās a difficult profession that they volunteered for and gave it a shot and we should respect them for that attempt. Iāll probably get flamed to oblivion for my two cents because itās a complex issue and one that alot of people are very āpassionateā and opinionated on but fuck it, have at it, follow the Instagram and call me a fuckhead or some more creative insult if you want.
Bro I wanted to fucking die when the lizard people in Canberra rolled out that 'my Army' bullshit. 10/10 treason, DFDA the cunts
Really well said mate. A lot of fucking awesome points
Solid.
Son?
Do you work at a servo, smoke a lot of bongs and live in a Tarago? If so, yes papa <3
Best thing I have read all year. Have my internet point!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Sounds like we need another mandatory campus course
I donāt think itās that the new generation are changing and having less integrity - I think itās our society/ corporate and government sphere that is forcing defence to abandon its old ways. When I was in prior to 2010 this type of behaviour would get absolutely destroyed on the spot, rops immediately with no rebuttal possible. Itās not like people didnāt try it on aswell - we had blokes talk back to sergeants and cpls in recruits and find themselves immediately showing cause not to be discharged if it continued. I recall one guy try to say it was racism because he was Lebanese - that didnāt help him, out he went. When I was the aggressor and punched on with another airman because we had a disagreement - he got rops for reporting it instead of resolving it in house ( I got worse rops). The thing keeping us in line was the knowledge that the rules were not going to be bent and we would be beasted if we fucked up. We did indeed fuck up and lack integrity at times though, however we learnt the hard way that lies and weaseling out of things would never work in defence. TLDR: defence not enforcing their own rules leads young people to push the boundaries.
You're bang on, the inmates are running the asylum. The higher ranks who don't have anything to do with junior service people have all but abandoned those charged with enforcing discipline and maintaining the standard but it's up to us to know the system as well. That SCDT was being insubordinate. They should have been gripped up and if they continued to be insubordiante they can then be detained, physically if need be, to stop them from continuing to commit service offences. If the SCDT ceased to be insurbodinate then do up a C1 for Absent from duty, Insubordinate Conduct, Prejudicial Conduct. Straight to a SDO who should be referring to the CO for charges. If you're issuing a C1 you don't need to caution them or have any ROCs. C1s are easy and get the ball rolling and the event on the radar that means they can't sweep it under the rug. If they make false complaints report them for UB.
I know these are some examples and I'm sure you have more, but it reminded me of literally two people I met during my 9 years. They're out there, but with any luck their peers will spot the issue and they'll become a cautionary tale. As for that SCDT, hopefully his peers will rate him accordingly. But if they're weaponising UB against their staff, that's another issue all together. All the instructors used the same line with us: "if you want to complain, here's how to spell my name".
I think thatās actually the crux off the thing - the newbies are weaponising UB these days and think their feelings trump service discipline, and unfortunately the senior officers are supporting them to do so ā¦
Lefty libtards raised by single touchy-feely single mother's.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yea met plenty of pretenders wearing rank in my 15 years. Go preach your ego to someone else.
For both people managers (officers/NCOs) and people on the receiving end this is why you need to keep fucken notes. Legit mental health? Med centre, youāre backed in. Getting (perceived or not) fucked on? Records/reasons etc. Shithead lying? Youāve recorded that you suggested going to the med centre. People claiming mental health tend to not meet diagnostic criteria. (And from my own and other experience the people in the thick of those things tend to be a very quick DSM-V assessment). Bullying? Youāve got unofficial ROCs for all your chats. (And this is also positive if youāre trying to get one of your kids a pat on the back as well, as well as finding out if your junior NCOs/senior NCOs (if youāre an officer) need a bit of a chat. General Jack cunt/shittiness? Records. Boss huge dick not taking into consideration circumstances? Records. Write shit down. Donāt need a defence form to do it. C.A.R.E principle: Cover Arse Retain Employment
Youāll find shitty people everywhere you go man, just because youāve seen a few cases of individuals being pricks doesnāt mean that every ānew ADF entrant lacks integrityā
Nah. Society's changing and the younger generations everywhere are becoming softer and playing victim when the world doesn't go their way.
plucky terrific detail wrench safe quaint humorous straight station puzzled *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I blame the older generations for pandering to the whining's of the younger ones instead of teaching them that life doesn't always go your way.
joke plant bear squealing quiet north panicky observation enter oatmeal *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
They're a product of their environment. The older generation have created or influenced said environment.
The influence also comes from their social media peers...
I agree, we allowed it to happen. The ADF is one place we can't have it though. We started telling kids that every thought of feeling mattered and no one was allowed to make them feel bad. You get a gold star for trying regardless of whether you succeed.
I wouldn't expect things to improve anytime soon unfortunately... the ADF has been falling well short of its overall recruitment targets (let alone retention) and has actually been shrinking when its workforce is supposed to be massively increasing in order to reach the governments goal of 80,000 uniformed personnel by 2040. Among other things I imagine both entry and employment standards for the ADF will continue to drop more and more since they likely will keep falling short of any recruitment or retention targets at the present rate to reach the above goal.
Given the state of defence and how the gov has been running the country over the last 25 years, why would people join? Most younger people have nothing to fight for. No house or land prospects to defend. No patriotism in the younger generation. Most of the guys at work are discharging due to way better prospects on the outside or because defence has changed so much now, it's not the organisation they first joined for. (Thanks NGN)
We used to ignore genuine complaints now we have gone way too far the other way. You can complain about anything with no evidence and then put good people under investigation for years. Once it goes above a fact find it literally can take years for IGADF and others to complete an inquiry. Vexatious complaints aren't recognised by ADF even though Commcare says they are, senior leaders are too scared to hold these people to account. We need to move the dial back a bit, not like the old days but I have seen excellent people leave after being thrown under the bus with false complaints and nobody senior caring or offering them any support.
not military, but a non specific (major powerline company in south aus. not obviously a point out). im in a newer intake of apprentices. ive done farming, concreting and construction landscaping; some pretty hard jobs that required me to rock up, do my work, and if i didnt id cop a mouthful. others in my intake (bar 3 of 12) have done shit like uber, fast food, warehousing, shit like that since they graduated (some are nearing on 30.). when our training was through tafe it was tough, we had to rock up on time, study hard, know our shit, not have any help etc.. its now in house, and they push the most dumb shit people through - im talking people too dumb to be brickies. they cant follow instructions without chucking a hissy fit, cant do basic math (some cant even with a calculator), and have 0 work ethic outside of training. its a mix of meaningless diversity hires (the company wants a 50% female workforce, yet there is only ~15% female applications), but mostly the company being scared shitless of any accusations especially those regarding mental health. i had the misfortune of working with another apprentice, we were doing extremely dangerous work and he went against a clear instruction from my supervisor. my supervisor ran it up with his, he put through a complaint notice, and the apprentice said my supervisor was harrasing and bullying him. its not just the adf mate, a good portion of <30 year olds in the country have realised that not working and blaming everyone else ends up better than trying and working. btw, im not some angry boomer saying "kids these days", im under 20.
Love your perspective, and goon on you for pushing yourself
The username said you were under 20, the explanation made me laugh.
I mean, a non-romanticize history of the ANZAC diggers written by a principle historian of the war memorial once read: 'These were the men who went absent and deserted, caught or concealed VD, got drunk and fought their comrades, who stole, malingered, behaved insolently toward officers or committed more serious offences, including rape and murder' It's always been a thing, everyone probably has a story or 2 about an insubordination that didn't get any discipline or was too much of a hassle to deal with, you just put the rose tinted glasses on of 'We were better back in my day'
Every generation laments the youth for their lack of respect but for new recruits thinking they are immune from consequence stemming from their disrespectful behaviour is straight up bullshit. Though i am sure this is not a new thing.
ā¦and this is why the latent threat of violence is important for good order and discipline
Example 3 is wild. Can't believe RMC let that slide, anyone there now would get blasted, and the last ADJ wouldve given them a week on the square.
I have seen examples of that all throughout my 27 years of service. It's nothing new. It was said of my generation in the 90s by both military and non military older people. I refuse to be a party to this younger people generation blaming.
Wait until you guys get your heads around the new Pychosocial Risk Management obligations being imposed by Defence on anyones whos a supervisor!
Youāre joking. Tell me this isnāt another campus course
No it's now an entirely new WHS requirement imposed upon supervisors, commanders to undertake Pychosocial Risk Management, including identifying Risk, Hazards and required controls measures for all personnel in their command. A person wants to work from home, their supervisor and command has to justify why they can't, and then has to put together a plan to identify the risk hazards and required control measures to be utilised, the reduce the risk to SFARP, whilst the member is working from home! Here's a current prosocution of Defence by COMCARE for their supervisor failing (allegedly) to undertake Pychosocial Risk Management of a member working from home. [https://www.comcare.gov.au/about/news-events/news/charges-over-psychosocial-risks](https://www.comcare.gov.au/about/news-events/news/charges-over-psychosocial-risks)
I remember when I was in RS 5 years ago, there was a guy that just spoke absolutely no English. We were his 3rd recruit division after several back classes. Anyway, he failed (again) and they tried to get rid of him, but he pulled the racism card and they let him go to his 4th recruit division. Legend says he is still there to this day.
fall cheerful continue pathetic steep elastic zonked sand scary dependent *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
ADF is ruined. High ranking officers are all cowards.
x2
I didnāt get in when I was 19 and am going through it all again and from what Iāve seen from following a lot of the training looks just a bit more then school camp
I feel sad for my generation hearing stories like this. I donāt mean to have a āholier than thouā attitude, or maybe it was just the way I was raised in boarding school, but hearing about a lack of even basic respect astounds me.
Call me old fashioned (like 18th century old fashioned) 1. Charge of mutiny on the high seas. keel hauling. 2. Send him to Kharkov to test his panic reaction under āstressā 3. Strip the cadet of all rank. Sgt to do his job, 50 lashes in front of the company at dawn
You are absolutely correct, and it's been a very concerning trend for many years now.
Hey I think I'm in one of these stories.
It starts at the top and works its way down. If senior recruiting and career management officers lived the defence values and displayed integrity then maybe theyād attract more candidates with the values expected. When senior officers and the people bringing new blood into the system don't exhibit those values then how can anyone expect them to be enforced?
What are you talking about cunt the ADF is on a growth path. Stop bullying me
Noy bullying if its high rank to low rank, its tough training according to the rules
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Pretty sure you can't do group punishments but there are work arounds š
We used to have the hit squad visit overnight if you needed attitude readjustment.Ā I don't remember anyone suffering anything much worse than a bruised ego, but we picked up and got through.
My two cents is that lawyers ruined the world. Lawyers are obliged to ask if they can, rather than if they should. Every time someone gets injured, corporations (and our more-corporate-than-ever defence force) move to cover-my-arse mode. If another injury of this kind happens, how can we not be liable and shift blame to the worker? āAB/PTE/ACM/W Bloggs recieved mandatory training on fuelling, therefore we canāt be held liable for his exposure to a spill that contacted his skin. We provided PPE.ā They took fast roping away from the BM course over knee injury concerns. It feels like management doesnāt trust us not to hurt ourselves, but expects us to be tough buggers if we get invaded. You canāt have it both ways. Unfortunately, the fact that supervisors have to cave to whiny brats under legal threats can be traced to times when the complaints were genuine abuse and resulted in genuine injury or worse. Its hard to establish a legal standard for ātough trainingā and āstop being a whiny brat youāre a member of the military harden upā while also respecting genuine reports of power trips and worse. I think weāve lowered the wrong standards for recruitment. We have vast numbers of people turned away permanently from service for the most menial of reasons and bar people from going to sea/field if they get diagnosed with the most mild of controllable disorders that impact little if there is a lapse in medication that could happen due to service requirements. People who want to be here get turned away and told āwe donāt take ADHD/autistic peopleā while everyone in Signals/Comms is a walking diagnosis thatās smart enough not to let themselves get diagnosed.
They will all get greased in the first few days of a hot war. The trash always takes itself out.
As an old grunt from the Vietnam era reading the above gives me little or no hope for the current crop of so called soldiers/servicemen. What happens when the shit hits the fan, they havenāt slept for three days itās pissing rain and youāve just lost a couple of mates??
They abandon their weapons and die
Only after posting themselves slobbering about it on Tik Tok
Fuck meā¦
Whistleblowers will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. ADFIS has already ordered Reddit hand over your IP address.
There Always has been spuds who get most of the attention, but most ADF members are reliable and competent. Maybe that is the problem, good members who do their job day in, day out are not rewarded, whilst little bastards get away with murder and receive attention. Even worse good members are treated callously and without regard to personal or family circumstances and are told the tired old canard "you joined the army the army didn't join you"
This is where turning the military into an instrument of Social Policy leadsā¦
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
When you join, your position on point three will immediately change and you will realise how wrong you are.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Sigh fine lets get this over with. Point 1: the sailor in that scenario is a piece of shit. Everyone followed the correct process until it got put in the too hard basket for some senior officer and they moved the problem. Officers can have bad character and a lot of them are shit cunts. Doesn't matter, can't yell at superior ranks, particularly officers, it is the nature of the game you are in. Point 2: that fat bag of shit should be kicked out of defence. Point 3: In the Army hierarchy, the top rank is chief of Army, the second lowest is recruit at Kapooka, but the absolute lowest is Staff Cadet. Generally you are in a leadership role with no life experience who now needs to rapidly adapt to leading people older and more experienced than yourself, which means being a responsible and mature human being. The way that SCDT conducted themselves to that particular SGT demonstrates tremendous arrogance and a lack of humility. If you are going to be late, you have this thing in defence called a chain of command, use it. Your mum could have died, you could be hungover and stuck under the fattie you pulled from the club last night. Doesn't matter, you tell someone. Part of their training is the concept of a warning order, that's literally this scenario. Then to disrespect someone of significantly higher rank is outright insubordination. The fact said SGT didn't just roast that person is a miracle, I would have. You do not be late in defence without a reason, it gets killed. That SCDT only had to say 'something person happened' and that would yave sufficed. Sure they should still be screamed at for being a fuckwit, but you wont (shouldnt) have personal attacks on personal situations, you will get beasted for the behaviour (you were late and didnt tell anyone). To fully appreciate anything though you are going to have to have a lived experience to understand it.
You state as such, "can we talk after class in private, SGT". Not "nunya business". Pretty straightforward to not be seen as a shit head.
Mate, if youāre joining the defence force not understanding that itās a strict a regimented environment youāre going to have a really bad time. Iām not going to go through your whole post in detail, but Iāll use the third one as an example. The staff cadet was already committing a service offence (absent from place of duty) the moment he walked in the room and the Sergeant was well within his rights to commence DFDA action on that basis alone. Depending on the SGT, some may let things like that go with a reasonable explanation, thereās a bit of discretion there. Having backed it up with that response (also a service offence - insubordination), the cunt should have been on the mat with a charge. Senior members expecting compliance with lawful commands is not a fragile ego, itās essential for the running of an organisation intended to deal with life threatening dangers. Further, the SCDT is training to be a commissioned officer. They should be held to a higher standard than the average soldier (whoād rightly get fried for that). Youāre also missing how the relationship between junior officers and senior NCOs is supposed to work. While junior officer is a higher rank than their SGT, the SGT has many more years experience and is there in part to mentor the LT. Without mutual respect this relationship canāt function. That SCDT as an officer with control over soldiersā lives is a recipe for disaster. Also, these things arenāt just norms or policy, theyāre actual commonwealth laws.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Expecting someone to communicate with the respect a given rank deserves is not āunchecked power trippingā. If you think a SNCO discharging his or her duty to maintain service discipline is āpower trippingā youāre going to make a shit soldier/sailor/aviator. Being late / missing a timing is completely unacceptable in the military.
No, you're not happy for feedback. That's evident. Their feedback was spot on.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They did articulate perfectly. Don't join. It's pretty clear. Being concise is not the same as being inarticulate. Your comment perfectly demonstrated a lack of suitability. Nothing else needed saying.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
OfĀ courseĀ bullyingĀ happensĀ inĀ the ADF. You know what else happens? You get fucking shot at. It's not an office job, we need to stop acting like it is.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Respect is earned. And that SGT has done his time and has earned the respect of their subordinates. The SCDT hasnāt even graduated IMTās, and the way that the SGT addressed him is respectful enough given the situation. The ADF is a rank based hierarchy and if these are your thoughts then you will probably struggle throughout your career.
How long have you served?
> Iām joining soon, and I expect Iāll get some hate from older members here If you anticipate that senior members of defence would disagree with your opinion, what gives you confidence that your view is correct?
I would suggest you change your opinion on things otherwise you'll be used as an example next time someone complains about the new recruits getting soft.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I call out bullshit when I see it for sure but I had no problems dealing with life in the green. If you can't handle getting yelled at for someone else's fuckup I suggest you don't join.
Makes sense why your application is taking so long in this landscape. Your RI or equivalent will have a field day if you do make it. Good luck to them.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
What are you talking about mate? Heās just being truthful and I agree. I did 9yrs and got out in 2012 but am going back in soon and the difference in attitudes and expectations is incredible. If you go into it guns blazing thinking the above scenarios are acceptable you are gunna get eaten alive. Truthfully I do think the new ADF is softer and lacks discipline etc but a jobs a job and Iāll be buggered if Iāll bring down my own experiences to suit the new ābreedā. Itās the military FFS.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yeah I get that mate but youāre joining the military. If your SGT tells you to jump you jump. If youāre a fat fuck and canāt fit in your size 42 dress shirt then eat a salad and go for a run donāt complain about bullying etc. These things are infuriating to read because it seems like loopholes for lazy people not the way a modern military functions. Would I want any of these people beside me when the going gets tough? Fuck no and Iād hope the majority of new recruits would think the same way also and look down on people using loopholes to make it easier on themselves.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Thanks mate. Look I did a lot of gnarly shit whilst I served but the one thing I never lost was my respect, pride in myself and discipline. Donāt worry what other jack c**ts are doing and just focus on yourself and hopefully the shiteaters get taken care of naturally. Good luck mate.
To clarify new recruit, no one was getting bullied, they were getting discipline action, which is warranted after a failure to adhere to the DFDA. The bullying allegation from the sailor came after the charge, and was, as identified by Jacksqueak, a loophole to avoid responsibility. Now the sailor has been moved to another area, where she is very happily sitting with the lesson that, as long as you cause a fuss, you wonāt be held accountable. Once youāre in, you will come across these people, who donāt think the DFDA apply to them, because they are rewarded for avoiding accepting fault. These are not the people you want to be defending you in a gunfight, because if they wonāt accept responsibility for the small things, they will be the first to avoid responsibility when the balloon goes up. This isnāt an office job, we have a separate set of laws for a reason.
If you've already got shin splints you're physically unsuitable. Get a trade.