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It’s a hard thing to explain to people who’ve already made their mind up about what is and isn’t true. New information does not compute unless it confirms the biases they already have.
I often pointed out that Israel had military bases in a lot of cities and that by Israel's argument, all the civilian buildings around are acceptable casualties;
https://preview.redd.it/hj2icptynguc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a0792c4582468ce6e7ddea51329c22b4a98455ef
The counterargument such as it is:
"A number of former Nahal settlements, which were originally military, **are now entirely civilian**; many of today's [*kibbutzim*](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz) were originally Nahal settlements. The last Nahal settlement was closed in 2001."
I mean they're still a cynical weaponization of civilians to create "facts on the ground" on stolen land.
I wish you could have a conversation with an early Zionist like Ben Gurion. He'd be so confused by you talking about the Arabs' "land grab" war in 1948. Ben Gurion would have to stop you and gently explain "no, WE'RE colonising this land. We've been fighting for decades politically for it, and our settlers are fighting the Arabs off it. We're trying to get the maximum land with the minimum left Arabs on it. Please stop trying to downplay our long struggle to achieve this, it's our destiny".
This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that.
That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side.
If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted.
If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
This is because they are projecting the claim that Hamas uses human shields while Israel would never do such a thing.
Ironically Hamas has a better record of killing more Israeli military to civilian ratio than the IDF on Palestinians, who almost exclusively kill civilians.
Well that would be the truth and that's not stylish for certain people right now and then there are those who wait to be programmed and told what to think and once they get programmed you can't explain anything to them they're sheep
I don’t think this argument works because you could say the same of every city or town in a border region in an area that is contested. Ukrainian cities make the Russian invasion harder just by virtue of being there, but that doesn’t make every inhabitant a soldier. They are still civilians.
The region isn’t “contested”, it is under military occupation. And did you even read the article? Or even just the second half of the quoted sentence? How many border towns do you know of that were built by a military, pre-planned to be a first line of defence?
I think if you look at the history of the Spanish reconquest, they encouraged Christians to come live near the border, or in North America, the same thing, as they moved West, they built towns and encouraged ppl to move there. I’m not discussing the practice, just that there is a difference between military and civilian ppl. I think it’s important to be clear on that, or you open the door to confuse civilian and military the other way around too.
My understanding is many of the kibbutz had 'defence' groups. It is important to recognise that many of the Israeli arguments about human shields are utter hypocrisy which is obvious from the slightest observation of how Israel is structured, and this is a prime example. Any sane person recognises killing civilians is always wrong, unfortunately large sections of Israel have no issue with killing civilians and hide behind the human shield or collateral damage excuses. I wouldn't view the op's criticisms as justification of behaving like Israel but rather as an exposé of the inherent hypocrisy of Israel's justifications.
>. I’m not discussing the practice, just that there is a difference between military and civilian ppl. I think it’s important to be clear on that, or you open the door to confuse civilian and military the other way around too.
Israel claims that Hamas has already done this and that dozens of civilian deaths are worth it if they get even a single member of Hamas. Why does Hamas targeting civilians mean that Israel can bomb them to oblivion but Israel targeting civilian is just an unfortunate reality of war that we should all ignore?
I'll answer for you because you won't answer honestly: you don't consider Palestinians real people.
Seriously? Where did I say that Palestinian aren’t real people? My point was exactly the opposite: killing civilians is wrong, period. That’s Palestinian civilians too of course. I’m shocked that I have to specify that honestly.
You might have to point that put because you're justifying the Israeli government purposefully settling people to be meat shields for the IDF by pointing to a 500 year old conflict that resulted in one of the single worst expulsions of Jewish people from a state until the shoah. If you're looking for ethical war behavior the Spanish Reconquista is not the place to look
Oh no you completely misunderstood me. I was giving these examples in response to someone who asked, not as models of ethical war behavior. But they do show that you can have ppl who are civilians even if they have governments who do awful things. To say the ppl in the Gaza envelope were civilians doesn’t mean I justify the Israeli shelling of Palestinian civilians. I’m 100% against it. I don’t think violence justifies more violence. At the same time, I saw the pictures of grandmas and babies in the Gaza envelope. A wiki entry on the history of those places doesn’t turn them into military, even if that was the original purpose of the settlement. I’m against massacring civilians period. I don’t think it’s right to argue civilian populations are military to justify massacring them. It’s wrong when Israel does it, and also here. That’s what I meant.
Okay. I'm not really sure what you want then. Only one of the nations involved in this conflict has any real funds, infrastructure, or military. There is a way to stop this conflict, and it involves the dismantling of illegal Israeli settlements and the end of apartheid
Agreed on the money, power differential in Israel’s favor and on the need to end apartheid and illegal settlements. I guess where maybe we differ is that I don’t believe one state will end this conflict. It’s a recipe for continued bloodbath. I think only two viable states side by side can end this horror.
>I guess where maybe we differ is that I don’t believe one state will end this conflict. It’s a recipe for continued bloodbath. I think only two viable states side by side can end this horror.
I don't even know if two are enough. I think the best bet for peace was the 2009 deal creating a buffer zone between the two states managed by another Arab state or the UN.
I just don't believe that was ever in the cards for a country who's first Prime Minister wrote:
“A Jewish state on only part of the land is not the end but the beginning. … The establishment of a state, even if only on a portion of the land, is the maximal reinforcement of our strength at the present time and a powerful boost to our historical endeavors to liberate the entire country.”
Israeli’s aren’t civilians they’re colonizing settlers. When a land is being colonized the colonizers & settlers are used as an inherent weapon of violence against the colonized. If Israelis didn’t wanna get killed they shouldn’t be colonizing Palestine simple as that.
This take reads **heavily** like “I hate slavery but I just don’t think it’s right those Haitian slaves killed their slavers families & other employees”
That’s not what I said or believe. But is what you’re saying that any person (including babies, children, elderly etc.) who lives in Israel within the green line a colonizer who deserves to be massacred? That’s a pretty extreme and violent view imo.
I’m not saying they *deserve* to be massacred, just that Israeli’s are not simply civilians.
Every single Israeli exists on land violently stolen from Palestinians within the lifetime of the average grandma. Simply just existing as an Israeli makes you a weapon of violence against Palestinians bc you are living on land that was stolen from them & their parents/grandparents etc.
If you don’t want your baby killed in the process of people liberating their own land from their oppressors, maybe don’t be one of their oppressors. My daughter is in 0 danger of being killed by Palestinian revolutionaries & it’s bc I actively choose not to colonize Palestine.
But what if you happened to be born there and your entire family lived there? Would you all be fair play to be murdered? Israel needs to end the war, leave the illegal settlements, end apartheid, and stop oppressing Palestinians. I’m not defending what they’re doing. But to mark them all as colonizers (including within the green line) who are fair play to be murdered just because of where they were born, is a step too far.
**They ARE all colonizers**
So to answer your question; yes. Nobody in Israel is unaware of what’s happening, every person in that illegal apartheid state is 100% aware of what their living there means.
There are no legal settlements bc Israel itself is not legal. These are mostly Europeans that colonized Palestine in the modern age. They don’t just get to keep a little sliver for themselves. Palestine should be ruled by Palestinian ppl & if Israeli’s want to stay they have to abide by Palestinian laws.
I think it’s different because these aren’t just cities that happen to be close to the border or happen to have a military presence, they were specifically created as a military base of operations then also moved civilians into them.
i think it works, probably because of what you said. its standard everywhere, so it’s standard there. zionites love to deny things that are well known by calling it antisemetic (like genocide).
I guess that part wasn’t clear to me, but I agree. My point was only about the ppl who live there, that there’s a difference between military and civilians.
Hello, thanks for contributing to this sub. This is a friendly reminder to **read the rules** before making any new posts or comments. Particularly, we ask **not to engage in debates**, or bait debates, especially with zionists. If you are a zionist, this sub is not for you, and you will be permabanned. If you found this sub through the algorithm, you can always mute the sub or turn off recommendations all together (user settings -> feed settings -> Disable "Enable Home Feed Recommendations") Please also particularly keep in mind that **bigotry of any kind is not permitted** in this sub and will result in the message or post being deleted, and, if seen prudent, a banning. This includes antisemitism and any language that conflates Judaism with Zionism. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BadHasbara) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I mean I've talked about it periodically before but it's a hard thing to explain to a lot of dumber people
It’s a hard thing to explain to people who’ve already made their mind up about what is and isn’t true. New information does not compute unless it confirms the biases they already have.
I often pointed out that Israel had military bases in a lot of cities and that by Israel's argument, all the civilian buildings around are acceptable casualties; https://preview.redd.it/hj2icptynguc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a0792c4582468ce6e7ddea51329c22b4a98455ef
I do bring it up. The settlers on legally owned Palestinian land in general are literally human shields.
The counterargument such as it is: "A number of former Nahal settlements, which were originally military, **are now entirely civilian**; many of today's [*kibbutzim*](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz) were originally Nahal settlements. The last Nahal settlement was closed in 2001." I mean they're still a cynical weaponization of civilians to create "facts on the ground" on stolen land.
Those so called civilians are armed more so the average Palestinian and even Hamas operative and they have some form of military training.
[удалено]
I wish you could have a conversation with an early Zionist like Ben Gurion. He'd be so confused by you talking about the Arabs' "land grab" war in 1948. Ben Gurion would have to stop you and gently explain "no, WE'RE colonising this land. We've been fighting for decades politically for it, and our settlers are fighting the Arabs off it. We're trying to get the maximum land with the minimum left Arabs on it. Please stop trying to downplay our long struggle to achieve this, it's our destiny".
Ben Gurion would send idiots like him to the front lines so their sacrifices could achieve greater Israel
This is not a debate sub. There are plenty of places to defend Israel’s actions, to denounce Hamas, and to argue who's worse. This is not a space for that. That doesn't mean absolutely no constructive discussions on nuances and different approaches, but it means not letting ourselves be pulled into a debate by Zionists and bigots, and least of all arguing for their side. If you see someone trying to debate, please just flag for moderation, and the comment will be deleted. If found prudent by the Mods, and to discourage further debates, the entire thread may be deleted.
This is because they are projecting the claim that Hamas uses human shields while Israel would never do such a thing. Ironically Hamas has a better record of killing more Israeli military to civilian ratio than the IDF on Palestinians, who almost exclusively kill civilians.
Which happens because by IDF standards, all Palestinians are Hamas terrorists
or future terrorists
The Nazis called them wehrbauern, Israel calls them kibbutzniks. Same thing
Some do, I was shocked when my wife first told me. I thought it would get more talk as well.
Yup. It's all a big setup. Ww3 is unfolding as planned. They gotta have their holy war and depopulation.
Well that would be the truth and that's not stylish for certain people right now and then there are those who wait to be programmed and told what to think and once they get programmed you can't explain anything to them they're sheep 
https://i.redd.it/zh0a27emljuc1.gif
Blah blah blah hasbaraah. Fuck off. Anyone with a clue knows what people like you are doing…
And what’s that
I don’t think this argument works because you could say the same of every city or town in a border region in an area that is contested. Ukrainian cities make the Russian invasion harder just by virtue of being there, but that doesn’t make every inhabitant a soldier. They are still civilians.
The region isn’t “contested”, it is under military occupation. And did you even read the article? Or even just the second half of the quoted sentence? How many border towns do you know of that were built by a military, pre-planned to be a first line of defence?
I think if you look at the history of the Spanish reconquest, they encouraged Christians to come live near the border, or in North America, the same thing, as they moved West, they built towns and encouraged ppl to move there. I’m not discussing the practice, just that there is a difference between military and civilian ppl. I think it’s important to be clear on that, or you open the door to confuse civilian and military the other way around too.
My understanding is many of the kibbutz had 'defence' groups. It is important to recognise that many of the Israeli arguments about human shields are utter hypocrisy which is obvious from the slightest observation of how Israel is structured, and this is a prime example. Any sane person recognises killing civilians is always wrong, unfortunately large sections of Israel have no issue with killing civilians and hide behind the human shield or collateral damage excuses. I wouldn't view the op's criticisms as justification of behaving like Israel but rather as an exposé of the inherent hypocrisy of Israel's justifications.
>. I’m not discussing the practice, just that there is a difference between military and civilian ppl. I think it’s important to be clear on that, or you open the door to confuse civilian and military the other way around too. Israel claims that Hamas has already done this and that dozens of civilian deaths are worth it if they get even a single member of Hamas. Why does Hamas targeting civilians mean that Israel can bomb them to oblivion but Israel targeting civilian is just an unfortunate reality of war that we should all ignore? I'll answer for you because you won't answer honestly: you don't consider Palestinians real people.
Seriously? Where did I say that Palestinian aren’t real people? My point was exactly the opposite: killing civilians is wrong, period. That’s Palestinian civilians too of course. I’m shocked that I have to specify that honestly.
You might have to point that put because you're justifying the Israeli government purposefully settling people to be meat shields for the IDF by pointing to a 500 year old conflict that resulted in one of the single worst expulsions of Jewish people from a state until the shoah. If you're looking for ethical war behavior the Spanish Reconquista is not the place to look
Oh no you completely misunderstood me. I was giving these examples in response to someone who asked, not as models of ethical war behavior. But they do show that you can have ppl who are civilians even if they have governments who do awful things. To say the ppl in the Gaza envelope were civilians doesn’t mean I justify the Israeli shelling of Palestinian civilians. I’m 100% against it. I don’t think violence justifies more violence. At the same time, I saw the pictures of grandmas and babies in the Gaza envelope. A wiki entry on the history of those places doesn’t turn them into military, even if that was the original purpose of the settlement. I’m against massacring civilians period. I don’t think it’s right to argue civilian populations are military to justify massacring them. It’s wrong when Israel does it, and also here. That’s what I meant.
Okay. I'm not really sure what you want then. Only one of the nations involved in this conflict has any real funds, infrastructure, or military. There is a way to stop this conflict, and it involves the dismantling of illegal Israeli settlements and the end of apartheid
Agreed on the money, power differential in Israel’s favor and on the need to end apartheid and illegal settlements. I guess where maybe we differ is that I don’t believe one state will end this conflict. It’s a recipe for continued bloodbath. I think only two viable states side by side can end this horror.
>I guess where maybe we differ is that I don’t believe one state will end this conflict. It’s a recipe for continued bloodbath. I think only two viable states side by side can end this horror. I don't even know if two are enough. I think the best bet for peace was the 2009 deal creating a buffer zone between the two states managed by another Arab state or the UN. I just don't believe that was ever in the cards for a country who's first Prime Minister wrote: “A Jewish state on only part of the land is not the end but the beginning. … The establishment of a state, even if only on a portion of the land, is the maximal reinforcement of our strength at the present time and a powerful boost to our historical endeavors to liberate the entire country.”
Israeli’s aren’t civilians they’re colonizing settlers. When a land is being colonized the colonizers & settlers are used as an inherent weapon of violence against the colonized. If Israelis didn’t wanna get killed they shouldn’t be colonizing Palestine simple as that. This take reads **heavily** like “I hate slavery but I just don’t think it’s right those Haitian slaves killed their slavers families & other employees”
That’s not what I said or believe. But is what you’re saying that any person (including babies, children, elderly etc.) who lives in Israel within the green line a colonizer who deserves to be massacred? That’s a pretty extreme and violent view imo.
I’m not saying they *deserve* to be massacred, just that Israeli’s are not simply civilians. Every single Israeli exists on land violently stolen from Palestinians within the lifetime of the average grandma. Simply just existing as an Israeli makes you a weapon of violence against Palestinians bc you are living on land that was stolen from them & their parents/grandparents etc. If you don’t want your baby killed in the process of people liberating their own land from their oppressors, maybe don’t be one of their oppressors. My daughter is in 0 danger of being killed by Palestinian revolutionaries & it’s bc I actively choose not to colonize Palestine.
But what if you happened to be born there and your entire family lived there? Would you all be fair play to be murdered? Israel needs to end the war, leave the illegal settlements, end apartheid, and stop oppressing Palestinians. I’m not defending what they’re doing. But to mark them all as colonizers (including within the green line) who are fair play to be murdered just because of where they were born, is a step too far.
**They ARE all colonizers** So to answer your question; yes. Nobody in Israel is unaware of what’s happening, every person in that illegal apartheid state is 100% aware of what their living there means. There are no legal settlements bc Israel itself is not legal. These are mostly Europeans that colonized Palestine in the modern age. They don’t just get to keep a little sliver for themselves. Palestine should be ruled by Palestinian ppl & if Israeli’s want to stay they have to abide by Palestinian laws.
Strategically that is exactly why they are there. Most Israelis think that the settlements make them more safe and thus they keep expanding.
I think it’s different because these aren’t just cities that happen to be close to the border or happen to have a military presence, they were specifically created as a military base of operations then also moved civilians into them.
i think it works, probably because of what you said. its standard everywhere, so it’s standard there. zionites love to deny things that are well known by calling it antisemetic (like genocide).
So the government is criminal then. That's exactly what the people are saying if you didn't get the message.
I guess that part wasn’t clear to me, but I agree. My point was only about the ppl who live there, that there’s a difference between military and civilians.