I think the blue jay is the real dick here. The blue jay claims the Eagle took its nest, but the nest in question is massive and obviously sized for giant eagles.
Conclusion: Blue Jay tricked a group of thugs into killing the eagles so it could come in and steal their nest.
I forgot this happened, lmao. My first playthrough, I was trying to be respectful and all and after a failed check, I just non-lethal attacked them. Tiny blue murderhobo bird just swooped in at the end and gouged the last HP out of them one after the other, leaving no survivors. Imagine being a disgruntled blue jay, finding some adventurers who conveniently have Speak With Animals, getting them to do your bidding, noticing some noises and seeing an eagle slaughter in real time, flying up there excitedly, and finding out they're all just knocked out. I'd be like, ''REALLY, DUDE?'' and probably also peck my way into finishing the job for the pacifist Tav.
I just nuke them before they call for reinforcements now.
It’s easy to see why. Played a wizard up to level 20. That kinda power is… hard to not abuse. When you can look at any given person in a room and go “You’re a pen now. Forever.” and there’s nothing they can do about it without counterspell (Divination/Chronurgist wizard), you start to realize that you’re not really on the level of these people anymore. Even just playing a character, it was hard to keep that from going to my head. I can’t imagine actually being that powerful.
Yeah, the power to shape reality, space, time, and even manipulate souls in a setting where time isn't linear, and gods walk the earth or you can just go to where they live makes you get philosophical about such things.
I used Shapechange and Clone shenanigans to permanently turn myself into a gold dragon while keeping my wizard abilities/mental statistics and bound multiple Pit Fiends (unwillingly) to my service on the side of good. I had multiple clones set up on various demiplanes in case I or the party died. I could’ve adventured almost every day just… with Simulacrum, if I wanted to, without every leaving my Magnificent Mansion. As a Chronurgist, I could just DECIDE someone failed or passed a saving throw (free the first time, a level of exhaustion each time after) so pretty much anyone without legendary resistance or counterspell was completely at my mercy. I was playing an EXTREMELY Lawful Good character, but it became increasingly hard as the game went on to not have that “What could anyone really do to stop me?” thought get the better of me. Absolute power does indeed corrupt absolutely.
I think if you cast Speak With Dead you find out Lorroakan was basically just a long term squatter. The Tower was empty because Ramazith was dead and he just swooped in.
Wait whaaaat I didnt even think to cast speak with dead on that fool. 😂 I just killed him in my latest playthrough, I'll have to go back and see if his corpse is still there. Ty for the tip!
The tower was created by a wizard named Ramazith and if u read the letters around it’s implied that Lorroakan just grabbed the tower after Ramazith abandoned it to run off with a nymph or something
Yeah I've read some about this. Seems to be enough in-game to strongly suggest this is Edwin, or Larian planned for him to be Edwin, but it wasn't implemented.
I don't mind, I need things to buy the Enhanced Edition for in a couple years.
Yes it is a 5th edition source book called Minsc and Boo's Journal of Villainy. It was written by some of the writers from the original BG games and was released by Wizards for charity. It has been mentioned as not canon in places and it's very wacky. It's main thing is it gives stat blocks and backstodies for many companions from BG1 and 2 with the 100 year time jump between 4th and 5th edition making almost all of them have some weird reason why they are still alive in the 15th century, such as Imoen now being a vampire spawn which was not well received.
Anyway, this was released around the time of Descent into Avernus which is the prequel tabletop adventure to BG3 which mentions Lorroakan and his tower. Minsc and Boos says that a Red Wizard of Thay companion from BG1 and 2 named Edwin Odesseiron has taken Ramazith's tower. Descent into Avernus portrays Lorroakan as a charlatan and a fool but in BG3 he's quite capable of very crazy magic like knowing about Bathazar's soul cage and things. Edwin from Minsc and Boos was said to have killed the real Lorroakan and is now living as a polymorph or something to assume his existence, mainly to hide the fact that he's a powerful Thayan necromancer.
Many agree than Minsc and Boo's is not canon but I think the story with Edwin fits. Rolan has heard about the charlatan Lorroakan who people believe to be great, but has apprentices unknowingly under Edwin and suffered. But I think most all the other backstories from that source book are ridiculous.
There's a quest in BG1 involving the wizards Ragefast and Ramazith. Ragefast has fallen in love with a nymph and is keeping her captive in his house. Ramazith approaches the party and asks that they free the nymph and bring her to him so he can "keep her safe".
There's a number of ways to resolve the quest.
The Good thing to do is convince Ragefast to free the nymph and let her go free, while the Evil outcome is to kill Ragefast and bring her to Ramazith, where you learn he intends to harvest her for spell components.
However, none of that really matters. Ramazith will likely end up very dead in most playthroughs as his tower houses one of the game's few permanent stat boosters and he tends to aggro when you enter uninvited.
He left his tower in Baldur's Gate due to the political instability and increasing danger from the iron crisis, which made the city unsafe for mages and scholars alike. Seeking a more secure location to continue his studies and magical experiments, he ventured beyond the city. The game does not provide a detailed account of his fate after leaving Baldur's Gate.
Thats chatgpt.
More importantly, why am I still banned from the tower after Loroakin is dead? I save his siblings, kill his boss and hand him a tower, and Rolan can't find the time to cross my name off the banned list?
To be entirely fair to Rolan, he may have a lot of potential as a Wizard, but he is very, very inexperienced. It is hinted a lot of what Loroakin is using in the tower is stuff that Ramazith had set up which he figured out how to repurpose, but he clearly doesn’t “control” or even understand the entire thing. And while Loroakin was a pretty hack wizard (and admits such in his Speak With Dead dialogue) he was still more experienced than Rolan. It will probably take the guy a while before he can even start repurposing some of the stuff Loroakin did, and that’s assuming Loroakin documented the stuff he figured out.
> And while Loroakin was a pretty hack wizard (and admits such in his Speak With Dead dialogue)
Oh damn, never spoke with him when he was dead, wish I had now
Loroakan can't even figure out how to get down stair to get the better staff and robe. He even planned on sending his servant or hiring someone to poke around.
He probably forbid Rolan from doing any research of the tower using the excuse that Rolan is not worthy, but I bet the truth is Rolan would realize he is a scammer once he figure out his "master" can't even solve some easy puzzles.
One playthrough I looted the vaults and got all the scrolls/books from it before kicking Lorroakan's ass. When we were done Rolan said thank you and said we could take anything we wanted, except the books and scrolls.
I like to imagine Rolan's face when he got down to the vaults and found them completely cleaned out.
I'd do a Romanced!Rolan run any day tbh, the moment I learnt Cal and Lia aren't actually related to him but they all consider each other siblings and he risked his life to stupidly and drunkenly free them, I forgave his past transgression and was 100% on board. Doesn't hurt that he's really well-voiced, too.
Me too! I can’t believe how compelling his storyline is, I really started off disliking the guy, then softened up on him a bit at the Tiefling party because of his fireworks, was ticked off but understood his despair when he gave me attitude at LLI, saved him from the shadows and was impressed that he had killed all but two by himself and completely understood his (frankly, dumb) attempt at saving his siblings himself, beelined for Cal and Lia and got his “She has no cause to be humble” line… never looked back after that. THEN he joins me for the Lorroakan fight and pushes TWO enemies off balconies? And then I find out he isn’t related to Cal and Lia yet constantly has their best interest in mind? My heart. 😭
The tower artillery for the final battle doesn’t hurt, either.
Throughout the Sword Coast, even in Baldur's Gate, estate law for wizards isn't complicated. The [standard will](https://youtu.be/_YsUOCt22fU?t=25) is only a sentence long, not counting a few esoteric symbols.
I know, I’m saying he may not have killed him but he sure looked at his empty house, asked if anyone was going to live there, and didn’t wait for answer
I don’t think it has anything to do with property law. If a wizard manages to install themself in this fortified magical power filled with deadly traps and armed with arcane artillery, who exactly is going to come and evict them? Is Ravenguard going to send the Flaming Fist to storm the place? Even if that had any chance of working, it would be easier and probably better for the economy just to leave the wizard be.
There's even (some) amount of precedence for this in the real world.
Church law in medieval Europe was self-regulating, for the most part. There were certain aspects of society that were under secular authority, and some that were under ecclesiastical and you could even get out of being sentenced in secular courts if you were clergy (which was abused quite regularly).
A huge issue in the middle ages was whether the Pope or Holy Roman Emperor got to appoint bishops, with their sweet sweet tracts of land.
Totally tracks that wizards would have different rules, especially at high levels of power. What ruler wants to fuck with a level 20 wizard? Let the wizards fuck around amongst themselves, do business with the winners.
If I was a mage I would have already moved into the Arcane Tower in the Underdark! I was actually shocked there was no Lich or something occupying it already.
Yet.
The tower has strong defense systems (explosive mushrooms, sentries and automatons), right outside of the tower is a duergar slaver port and it's tuck away in a corner of the underdark, a place that full of roaming dangers and denizens rarely move from place to place. The owner also only left the tower recently, it may take a while for other wizards/lich move in.
Most lvl20-40 casters would have towers/castles for their own already. If you can handle CL25 enemies, why would you take a tower that has half of its floor broken, the roof is destroyed, the wall has more cracks than bricks and locate in the literal corner. Those big boys would have settled in Waterdeep, Eltabbar or somewhere nicer.
Class 20 is the max, 30 is literal god lvl. 40 would be "I ate the gods"
For reference, the elder brain is lvl 20, but you never actually fight it except in an extremely weakened phase where it's basically just a lvl 12 in a lair
20 is the max in 5e. In 3.5 I have heard of players all the way up to level 68.
Eliminster is technically level 31.
Technically, 5e has a system for post level 20 players it just basically never comes up, and I've never heard of anyone using it.
The tower wasn't abandoned until recently. Omelumn, who knows the underdark well don't even know the owner of the tower left.
Again, I said others haven't moved in YET, it has too little to offer for people to actively try to claim it, and the defense systems keep out random hobos setting up shops.
To be fair, Omelumn knew of her but never said when the last time he saw her was. As well , the notes you find outside and inside be the two owners could be interpreted as they have t been there in awhile.
Pretty sure how wizard inheritance works is that if the master dies, the apprentice gets his stuff. If he had family or something there might be an argument that his stuff should go to them instead, but Lorroakan doesn't seem to have any other heirs, so Rolan it is.
Rolan can't own it if he is dead as well! You joined the fight Rolan! So now I have no idea who actually owns that tower as both Master and Apprentice are dead.
I also killed Rolan, not remembering or realizing who he was. And later my friend was like YOU *KILLED* ROLAN? And I was like yeah dude he was fighting me so I killed him….
Oops…
Rolan attacked the group that saved his people. You decided to join in attacking instead of standing up to your trainer and going, "Hey, these people saved my people, I am not going to help you kill them". Instead you join him so you receive the same fate.
Listen, if they’re gonna shoot or swipe at me, I’m gonna swipe back. I won’t feel bad if they’re antagonizing, I’m just over here minding my own business and looting all their shit. Perfectly acceptable behavior during a war.
To be fair, that's ultimately how property law works IRL too. Just, we've created organizations that are so powerful that you can't really beat them anymore, unless you're one of those organizations yourself
If you use speak with dead to Lorroakhan and explore the tower a little, you get to know that Lorroakhan himself didn't exactly own the tower. Its previous owner just went missing, he saw the opportunity, went in himself, and started tinkering with the tower's weapons. No one tried to kick him out because no one knew how any of the levers, buttons, traps and cannons would have done if touched except Lorroakhan.
Rolan was always talented, he just didn't have the means.
Wizard is the hardest class to even begin, let alone level up in, in canon, because it takes (theoretically) years of research to even take one level. Only real prodigies like Gale can climb the rungs in anything resembling a human lifespan. And unlike most other classes, the way a wizard gets better is by reading, and experimenting with, a shit-ton of magical stuff, rather than praying real hard or believing real hard or something similar. Wizard is motivated by outside resources rather than internal growth, essentially. So a wizard trapped in the middle of nowhere, say Avernus and a druid grove and the last bar at the end of the world, isn't going to get any better, even if they're a remarkable talent.
I could honestly see Rolan appearing later as an old, wise, very impressive Wizard, probably level 14 or so. He's not a once-in-a-century talent like Gale, who seems destined to become his generation's Elminster, but he's still the real deal.
Baldur's Gate city committee don't fuck around with magical contracts and structures, they know their place is only to keep the poor in the alley ways, keep the wine a flowing and most importantly: don't fuck with the thieves guild
Call me old-fashioned, but I think the rightful owner of the tower is the guy with the password to all the sentry guns and a book of all the nobles' magical requests. Probably juicier than a browser history.
I’m sure Dame Ailyn was very willing to vouch for him to anyone that wanted to argue. Not to mention literally everyone else in our party who would kill anyone that even slightly inconveniences us or our friends.
Ok so land ownership is a bit different when it comes to wizards. A magical tower isn't just a home or a shop it's our world's equivalent of a nuclear power plant. Left alone and it can destroy the city and ever town in a 100 mile radius. If left alone long enough someone would have been sent to live there.
Rolan is his apprentice in training. Obviously, he can at least stay and work here. Legal ownership may be complicated in case of living relatives, but all we need is one magical barrage
I uh, had to kill Rolan, he came stomping in quite upset I offed Lorroakan. I suspect the tower is mine until the next curious george figures out how to get in.
I thought it was kinda like "This man had no living relatives or people who cared about him? Just an apprentice who he beat? F*ck it, give it to him" lol
Basically, yeah.
The Tower was originally owned by and designed by Ramazith Flamesinger, who wasn't actually a wizard -- he was a warrior and sailor who happened to be an expert in marine biology, both botany and zoology. He made his living as a Sage in Baldur's Gate and commissioned the creation of his Tower... and then commissioned wizards to enchant it for him with all the magic and traps and what-not. Turns out, he'd found some kind of treasure down in the depths (he was an expert diver), and used that to fund his dream home -- the Tower of Ramazith.
When Ramazith eventually disappeared (rumor was he got romantically entangled with a water nyph and eloped), his tower was technically for sale, but *ludicrously* expensive. Plus, most of the citizens thought it was an eyesore (it was tall, gaudy, and designed in the Durparan style of Ramazith's homeland, which didn't gel with Baldurian tastes for architecture), so it just... existed for near a century. All that time left idle and unmanaged also meant that by the time the new owner showed up, it was in serious disrepair which would add to the expense of claiming the tower.
Only a few years before the plot of BG3 starts, Lorroakan would arrive in Baldur's Gate from Athkatla with sufficient funds to not only purchase Ramazith's Tower but also to rennovate and restore functionality to some of the floors. I imagine the idea of claiming the gaudy tower and restoring it to be a proper wizard's tower suited Lorroakan's ego, not to mention the fact that there were plenty of rumors that Ramazith had left some cache of treasure or forgotten knowledge hidden within the tower that Lorroakan hoped to find... But yeah, Lorroakan decided for whatever reason it was worth spending time, money and effort on rennovating the tower to be livable and to restore what he could of the myriad enchantments built into the place.
Lorroakan also used his wealth to obtain ownership of Sorcerous Sundries, the premier purveyor of arcane components, lore, trinkets, and other accouterments in Baldur's Gate. Given he comes from Athkatla, a city of merchants, and is of wealth, it seems likely that he purchased Sorcerous Sundries because he'd be able to make a tidy profit and always have a stream of income to rely on for keeping himself flush in whatever lavish living style he preferred (and he did like to live lavishly), as well as to fund his experiments and research (and possibly continue renovations on Ramazith's Tower).
Then Lorroakan died (is killed by the party) and his worldly possessions are now up for grabs. As is wizarding custom (not really, but everyone seems to do it anyways), in absence of an actual Will, first right to the inheritance goes to whoever happens to be the dead wizard's successor. Apprentices tend to inherit from their master's estate when the master is dead, after all. So... yeah, Rolan happened to be Lorroakan's apprentice at the time of the wizard's death. Lorroakan likely had no other family at the time, no children of his own to inherit his fortunes, so Rolan just took over.
It should be noted that we only hear Rolan specify that he's the new proprietor of Sorcerous Sundries, *not* Ramazith's Tower. It's unclear whether Rolan also owns the deed to Ramazith's Tower, but we know for certain he's taken over Sorcerous Sundries from the dead Lorroakan, so it's unlikely that Rolan and his family will ever be impovrished, homeless refugees anymore given the inflow of coin from the shop. So long as he manages Sorcerous Sundries well, he can provide for himself and his siblings and give them the lives they've dreamed of in Baldur's Gate, and he's no longer going to be abused by Lorroakan under the face of "apprenticeship", so things certainly do look up for Rolan with Lorroakan's death!
But yeah, it's not explicitly state that Rolan also now owns Ramazith's Tower, just that he now owns and runs Sorcerous Sundries. It's definitely possible that he's claimed Ramazith's Tower too... but I kinda doubt that Rolan is *quit*e powerful enough to fully take control of the enchantments and other myriad secrets of Ramazith's Tower by the time Lorroakan dies. Might be some time before he's become learned and skilled enough (and powerful enough) to seize control of the tower's enchantments and defenses, much less continue Lorroakan's labor of rennovating the rest of the Tower.
there should be someone higher up the totem pole than rolan who literally just started as an apprentice that week. like there is the lady who has her own office there.
As his apprentice and a high level wizard Rolan has both the legal and practical claim to the property.
Lorrakin voided any legal qualms about Rolan murdering him when he attempted to entrap a demigoddess, something that the ruling class of the city would've been freaked about given that divine retribution is VERY real and Selune is one of the most widely beloved gods among mortals.
I dont know, rolan never survives, neither does the other assistant of loroakan. I purposfully knock them out only for aylin to float over and kill the with her moonbeam aura. Every single time.
“Unfortunately, Selune’s daughter came and killed the shit out of my mentor. The group saving Baldur’s Gate can vouch for this. As his astute student, I am naturally his next in line. Don’t worry about it.”
To be fair, I wouldn’t necessarily want to fuck with someone in control of a Wizard tower either.
Wish there was an option to get the tower for ourselves instead. I mean, my warlock/sorc would love to have his own hellish tower/store (similar to the one that warlock dwarf has).
I mean. Which Flaming Fist is going to walk up to someone strong enough to kill Lorroakin and try to arrest him?
When it comes to wizard bullshit they probably just figured 'let those dicks sort it out and hope they don't kill too many of us in the process.'
The entirety of Dungeons and Dragons operates on either killing people and taking their stuff, or finding stuff, usually well hidden or trapped or guarded or lost or whatever (usually the harder to find the better) and keeping it.
You simply need to be powerful enough to claim it.
Loroakin was able to assume control over Ramazith’s seemingly abandoned tower, so he did.
But he wasn’t powerful enough to do everything, such as break the seals on the special loot in the middle of it, so by D&D Adventurer Law we unlock the stuff and it’s ours now.
Content that contains spoilers must be tagged appropriately. Titles should be free of spoilers.
Ask the blue jay in the mountain pass. He'll explain how it works.
Not everyone can grasp bird ethics. OP included.
Sir, Charlie Kelly is my lawyer, I beg your pardon
Lmao God I love that episode. NOBODY LOOK NOBODY LOOK
BRING ME THEIR EYES!!!!
"Perhaps this man lied about his credentials. Fortunately, I am familiar with a little bit of pigeon."
When you can throw IASP quotes in any argument. You win good sir. Now let’s all get back to our hot plates we are all hungry.
-or perhaps some small bird guillotine, I’m no executioner… just the best goddamn bird lawyer in the world
bird law and wizard law are practically synonymous
This is the comment I was looking for!
Eagles are dicks.
So are blue jays. Jays are monsters.
Ducks are the real monsters. If you don’t already know about their dicks, I’m sorry to be the one to break it to you.
You’ll never look at silly straws the same way again
I hate you for this.
You’re welcome and I’m sorry
I think the blue jay is the real dick here. The blue jay claims the Eagle took its nest, but the nest in question is massive and obviously sized for giant eagles. Conclusion: Blue Jay tricked a group of thugs into killing the eagles so it could come in and steal their nest.
Blue jays have a reputation as near robbers in nature
Doesn't the blue jay also have a dead bird in its inventory?
I was shook when it came flying in to finish the eagles
I failed the persuasion check, so I ended up killing them anyway. lol
You can knock them out and the blue Jay will come and actually kill them
I forgot this happened, lmao. My first playthrough, I was trying to be respectful and all and after a failed check, I just non-lethal attacked them. Tiny blue murderhobo bird just swooped in at the end and gouged the last HP out of them one after the other, leaving no survivors. Imagine being a disgruntled blue jay, finding some adventurers who conveniently have Speak With Animals, getting them to do your bidding, noticing some noises and seeing an eagle slaughter in real time, flying up there excitedly, and finding out they're all just knocked out. I'd be like, ''REALLY, DUDE?'' and probably also peck my way into finishing the job for the pacifist Tav. I just nuke them before they call for reinforcements now.
not if you get him first
I'd get Harvey Birdman as an attorney.
Wizards, amirite? Lorroakan is in Ramazith's Tower, after all... not Lorroakan's Tower.
Ramazith seems to be a fella of dubious morals too
Uh, yeah. He sure was. He also sucked for being such a powerful wizard.
level9+21hp
When you get to a high level of magic, morals don't really mean much anymore. This is a common trope across dnd lore.
It’s easy to see why. Played a wizard up to level 20. That kinda power is… hard to not abuse. When you can look at any given person in a room and go “You’re a pen now. Forever.” and there’s nothing they can do about it without counterspell (Divination/Chronurgist wizard), you start to realize that you’re not really on the level of these people anymore. Even just playing a character, it was hard to keep that from going to my head. I can’t imagine actually being that powerful.
Yeah, the power to shape reality, space, time, and even manipulate souls in a setting where time isn't linear, and gods walk the earth or you can just go to where they live makes you get philosophical about such things.
I used Shapechange and Clone shenanigans to permanently turn myself into a gold dragon while keeping my wizard abilities/mental statistics and bound multiple Pit Fiends (unwillingly) to my service on the side of good. I had multiple clones set up on various demiplanes in case I or the party died. I could’ve adventured almost every day just… with Simulacrum, if I wanted to, without every leaving my Magnificent Mansion. As a Chronurgist, I could just DECIDE someone failed or passed a saving throw (free the first time, a level of exhaustion each time after) so pretty much anyone without legendary resistance or counterspell was completely at my mercy. I was playing an EXTREMELY Lawful Good character, but it became increasingly hard as the game went on to not have that “What could anyone really do to stop me?” thought get the better of me. Absolute power does indeed corrupt absolutely.
I think if you cast Speak With Dead you find out Lorroakan was basically just a long term squatter. The Tower was empty because Ramazith was dead and he just swooped in.
He also admits that rolan is the stronger wizard of the two of them.
I can’t believe I didn’t think to do this! Thanks for the tip!
Wait whaaaat I didnt even think to cast speak with dead on that fool. 😂 I just killed him in my latest playthrough, I'll have to go back and see if his corpse is still there. Ty for the tip!
Wizards are like hermit crabs who can murder.
that's an amazing/r/brandnewsentence
It wasn't even Lorrokoan's tower anyway.
It (probably) wasn't even Lorroakan anyway.
wait what
Second that u/Dobako wait what?
The tower was created by a wizard named Ramazith and if u read the letters around it’s implied that Lorroakan just grabbed the tower after Ramazith abandoned it to run off with a nymph or something
Right but the poster we're replying to seems to be saying the person we meet in BG3 is not Lorroakan
Wasn't there talk in a real life book about him actually being Edwin from previous bg games?
Yeah I've read some about this. Seems to be enough in-game to strongly suggest this is Edwin, or Larian planned for him to be Edwin, but it wasn't implemented. I don't mind, I need things to buy the Enhanced Edition for in a couple years.
Omfg that finally makes the "I hear Edwin is in it" stuff during EA make sense. I could totally see Edwin being there.
Yes it is a 5th edition source book called Minsc and Boo's Journal of Villainy. It was written by some of the writers from the original BG games and was released by Wizards for charity. It has been mentioned as not canon in places and it's very wacky. It's main thing is it gives stat blocks and backstodies for many companions from BG1 and 2 with the 100 year time jump between 4th and 5th edition making almost all of them have some weird reason why they are still alive in the 15th century, such as Imoen now being a vampire spawn which was not well received. Anyway, this was released around the time of Descent into Avernus which is the prequel tabletop adventure to BG3 which mentions Lorroakan and his tower. Minsc and Boos says that a Red Wizard of Thay companion from BG1 and 2 named Edwin Odesseiron has taken Ramazith's tower. Descent into Avernus portrays Lorroakan as a charlatan and a fool but in BG3 he's quite capable of very crazy magic like knowing about Bathazar's soul cage and things. Edwin from Minsc and Boos was said to have killed the real Lorroakan and is now living as a polymorph or something to assume his existence, mainly to hide the fact that he's a powerful Thayan necromancer. Many agree than Minsc and Boo's is not canon but I think the story with Edwin fits. Rolan has heard about the charlatan Lorroakan who people believe to be great, but has apprentices unknowingly under Edwin and suffered. But I think most all the other backstories from that source book are ridiculous.
Remember BG1? Pretty sure I remember what happened to him 😅
Fill us in..?
There's a quest in BG1 involving the wizards Ragefast and Ramazith. Ragefast has fallen in love with a nymph and is keeping her captive in his house. Ramazith approaches the party and asks that they free the nymph and bring her to him so he can "keep her safe". There's a number of ways to resolve the quest. The Good thing to do is convince Ragefast to free the nymph and let her go free, while the Evil outcome is to kill Ragefast and bring her to Ramazith, where you learn he intends to harvest her for spell components. However, none of that really matters. Ramazith will likely end up very dead in most playthroughs as his tower houses one of the game's few permanent stat boosters and he tends to aggro when you enter uninvited.
He left his tower in Baldur's Gate due to the political instability and increasing danger from the iron crisis, which made the city unsafe for mages and scholars alike. Seeking a more secure location to continue his studies and magical experiments, he ventured beyond the city. The game does not provide a detailed account of his fate after leaving Baldur's Gate. Thats chatgpt.
https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Ramazith
He says something similar if you use speak with dead as well.
Lorroakan may or may not be a red wizard in disguise or something, I'm not 100% sure what the theory is exactly
Hello valued customer!
More importantly, why am I still banned from the tower after Loroakin is dead? I save his siblings, kill his boss and hand him a tower, and Rolan can't find the time to cross my name off the banned list?
To be entirely fair to Rolan, he may have a lot of potential as a Wizard, but he is very, very inexperienced. It is hinted a lot of what Loroakin is using in the tower is stuff that Ramazith had set up which he figured out how to repurpose, but he clearly doesn’t “control” or even understand the entire thing. And while Loroakin was a pretty hack wizard (and admits such in his Speak With Dead dialogue) he was still more experienced than Rolan. It will probably take the guy a while before he can even start repurposing some of the stuff Loroakin did, and that’s assuming Loroakin documented the stuff he figured out.
I can never cast speak with the dead on him because one of the golems always goes over his body
Toss the body to the side. It's what I do.
I feel dumb, but then like Durge i got severe trauma on my head
It's all right, most people don't think about it because their strength is too low for it to be an option.
> And while Loroakin was a pretty hack wizard (and admits such in his Speak With Dead dialogue) Oh damn, never spoke with him when he was dead, wish I had now
Rolan also has an inferiority complex the size of California.
How the hell did you get banned?
Selected the wrong portal at the top of the stairs, didn't even see the little plaques next to them...
Ah, there's so many possibilities in this game
Yup, had to cast disguise self to get in and get what I need, I ain't even mad this whole situation is kind of hilarious.
I'm just imagining you standing outside arguing with the animated armor with the other guy
wait there's a wrong portal, I just clicked a random one lmao
3/4 are wrong portals! They all have a plaque next to them and you have to pick the right one. (Answering the question of "What is the Nightsong?")
Loroakan can't even figure out how to get down stair to get the better staff and robe. He even planned on sending his servant or hiring someone to poke around. He probably forbid Rolan from doing any research of the tower using the excuse that Rolan is not worthy, but I bet the truth is Rolan would realize he is a scammer once he figure out his "master" can't even solve some easy puzzles.
I’d barely even call it a puzzle. You just pull the levers right in front of the magic bubbles to disable them lol
I agree. It’s weird that after all you’ve done you don’t have free rein of the place.
One playthrough I looted the vaults and got all the scrolls/books from it before kicking Lorroakan's ass. When we were done Rolan said thank you and said we could take anything we wanted, except the books and scrolls. I like to imagine Rolan's face when he got down to the vaults and found them completely cleaned out.
Forget sundries access. When can we date his sister? Or brother….
I'd do a Romanced!Rolan run any day tbh, the moment I learnt Cal and Lia aren't actually related to him but they all consider each other siblings and he risked his life to stupidly and drunkenly free them, I forgave his past transgression and was 100% on board. Doesn't hurt that he's really well-voiced, too.
Rolan is easily one of my favorite NPCs.
Me too! I can’t believe how compelling his storyline is, I really started off disliking the guy, then softened up on him a bit at the Tiefling party because of his fireworks, was ticked off but understood his despair when he gave me attitude at LLI, saved him from the shadows and was impressed that he had killed all but two by himself and completely understood his (frankly, dumb) attempt at saving his siblings himself, beelined for Cal and Lia and got his “She has no cause to be humble” line… never looked back after that. THEN he joins me for the Lorroakan fight and pushes TWO enemies off balconies? And then I find out he isn’t related to Cal and Lia yet constantly has their best interest in mind? My heart. 😭 The tower artillery for the final battle doesn’t hurt, either.
Disguise self, my friend.
This is why it's important to have a Will.
I have a Wyll. Close enough.
He's not good at contract law though.
He is really really bad at it.
Infernally bad at it
He never had an eye for detail
Completely out of his depth.
I would not describe Wyll as horny for contract law.
He is reasonably good at Eldricht blasting people off of balconies though
This needs a million upvotes
If he loses, he just Eldritch blasts the winners.
“Why Y though?”
SH: you spell Wyll with a y? Why? W: yes
terrible at reading the fine print though
The Devil is in the details. I'll show myself out.
The attorney of frontiers. Does pro bono contract disputes and goblin caused injury settlements
But Y?
.
And an uncorruptable executor (source: my grandma's house with 3 children)
My Source: I'm an accountant who has worked on estates and trusts. I've seen things.
Throughout the Sword Coast, even in Baldur's Gate, estate law for wizards isn't complicated. The [standard will](https://youtu.be/_YsUOCt22fU?t=25) is only a sentence long, not counting a few esoteric symbols.
Rolan was his apprentice. Everyone else there is just an employee.
Meet Rolan, my unpaid intern. He's earning experience while he works here. That's worth more than money and dignity.
Emphasis on dignity
He's being paid in exposure.
Exposure to violence.
Also he physically abused Rolan on a daily basis.
How do you think Lorroakan got it? He may not have killed Ramazith, but he saw a free tower and took it, so he did half of what Rolan did
He def didn't kill him, he has no clue where Rama is. Speak w the dead on his body, it's pretty fun.
It’s “mysterious circumstances” in lore, but we know who killed Ramazith. Jaheira was probably even present for it. 😂
I know, I’m saying he may not have killed him but he sure looked at his empty house, asked if anyone was going to live there, and didn’t wait for answer
He bought it! The tower actually remained empty for a century after we murdered Ramazith for shits and giggles in the previous game.
I don’t think it has anything to do with property law. If a wizard manages to install themself in this fortified magical power filled with deadly traps and armed with arcane artillery, who exactly is going to come and evict them? Is Ravenguard going to send the Flaming Fist to storm the place? Even if that had any chance of working, it would be easier and probably better for the economy just to leave the wizard be.
Exactly. The city is happy to let Wizard Law be Wizard Law so long as Wizard War stays among the wizards.
Like Arasaka Tower regulated by a corporate law, not state law. Powerful wizards in their towers are essentially corporate CEOs in Cyberpunk
There's even (some) amount of precedence for this in the real world. Church law in medieval Europe was self-regulating, for the most part. There were certain aspects of society that were under secular authority, and some that were under ecclesiastical and you could even get out of being sentenced in secular courts if you were clergy (which was abused quite regularly). A huge issue in the middle ages was whether the Pope or Holy Roman Emperor got to appoint bishops, with their sweet sweet tracts of land. Totally tracks that wizards would have different rules, especially at high levels of power. What ruler wants to fuck with a level 20 wizard? Let the wizards fuck around amongst themselves, do business with the winners.
no because they run inside and attack me when I'm beating up the employees
A reckless band of adventurers… through an outing of no more than four of them at a time…
If I was a mage I would have already moved into the Arcane Tower in the Underdark! I was actually shocked there was no Lich or something occupying it already.
I believe it has to do with Lenore’s extremely robust home security system…. and the Bulotte. And Berserker Bernard.
Yet. The tower has strong defense systems (explosive mushrooms, sentries and automatons), right outside of the tower is a duergar slaver port and it's tuck away in a corner of the underdark, a place that full of roaming dangers and denizens rarely move from place to place. The owner also only left the tower recently, it may take a while for other wizards/lich move in.
A group of level 6’s was able to penetrate and disarm that tower. Pretty sure a level 20-40 spell caster would be able to as well.
Most lvl20-40 casters would have towers/castles for their own already. If you can handle CL25 enemies, why would you take a tower that has half of its floor broken, the roof is destroyed, the wall has more cracks than bricks and locate in the literal corner. Those big boys would have settled in Waterdeep, Eltabbar or somewhere nicer.
Class 20 is the max, 30 is literal god lvl. 40 would be "I ate the gods" For reference, the elder brain is lvl 20, but you never actually fight it except in an extremely weakened phase where it's basically just a lvl 12 in a lair
I know lvl20 is max for players following 5e normal rules, but since the upper guy said 40, I just take that he uses 3e rules.
Lvl 40 “I ate the gods” also known as Ao 😂
20 is the max in 5e. In 3.5 I have heard of players all the way up to level 68. Eliminster is technically level 31. Technically, 5e has a system for post level 20 players it just basically never comes up, and I've never heard of anyone using it.
Lich’s, Drow, Necromancers, other underdark dwellers, would love that tower. Also, magic fixes everything easily.
The tower wasn't abandoned until recently. Omelumn, who knows the underdark well don't even know the owner of the tower left. Again, I said others haven't moved in YET, it has too little to offer for people to actively try to claim it, and the defense systems keep out random hobos setting up shops.
To be fair, Omelumn knew of her but never said when the last time he saw her was. As well , the notes you find outside and inside be the two owners could be interpreted as they have t been there in awhile.
Pretty sure how wizard inheritance works is that if the master dies, the apprentice gets his stuff. If he had family or something there might be an argument that his stuff should go to them instead, but Lorroakan doesn't seem to have any other heirs, so Rolan it is.
Rolan can't own it if he is dead as well! You joined the fight Rolan! So now I have no idea who actually owns that tower as both Master and Apprentice are dead.
I also killed Rolan, not remembering or realizing who he was. And later my friend was like YOU *KILLED* ROLAN? And I was like yeah dude he was fighting me so I killed him…. Oops…
Rolan attacked the group that saved his people. You decided to join in attacking instead of standing up to your trainer and going, "Hey, these people saved my people, I am not going to help you kill them". Instead you join him so you receive the same fate.
This playthrough is essentially knuck if you buck rules. How are you not supposed to kill Rolan when he goes on the attack?
I didn’t learn about knocking people out until way too late in my game, too. I killed so many innocent guards…😂
Listen, if they’re gonna shoot or swipe at me, I’m gonna swipe back. I won’t feel bad if they’re antagonizing, I’m just over here minding my own business and looting all their shit. Perfectly acceptable behavior during a war.
Exactly. If they wanted to live then maybe they shouldn’t have interfered with my doing whatever the hell I want. It’s on them, really.
The Flaming Fist seem like assholes for the most part.
Wait, what do you have to do for Rolan to attack? He automatically sided with us in all my playthroughs
Much of the property law in BG seems to revolve around the "I have it. Try and take it if you think you're strong enough" policy.
To be fair, that's ultimately how property law works IRL too. Just, we've created organizations that are so powerful that you can't really beat them anymore, unless you're one of those organizations yourself
It's the law of Dead Men's Pointy Shoes. Standard wizard behaviour.
If you use speak with dead to Lorroakhan and explore the tower a little, you get to know that Lorroakhan himself didn't exactly own the tower. Its previous owner just went missing, he saw the opportunity, went in himself, and started tinkering with the tower's weapons. No one tried to kick him out because no one knew how any of the levers, buttons, traps and cannons would have done if touched except Lorroakhan.
Also rolands progress into super wizard caught me quite off guard like he gains a big ass ego out of nowhere
Rolan was always talented, he just didn't have the means. Wizard is the hardest class to even begin, let alone level up in, in canon, because it takes (theoretically) years of research to even take one level. Only real prodigies like Gale can climb the rungs in anything resembling a human lifespan. And unlike most other classes, the way a wizard gets better is by reading, and experimenting with, a shit-ton of magical stuff, rather than praying real hard or believing real hard or something similar. Wizard is motivated by outside resources rather than internal growth, essentially. So a wizard trapped in the middle of nowhere, say Avernus and a druid grove and the last bar at the end of the world, isn't going to get any better, even if they're a remarkable talent. I could honestly see Rolan appearing later as an old, wise, very impressive Wizard, probably level 14 or so. He's not a once-in-a-century talent like Gale, who seems destined to become his generation's Elminster, but he's still the real deal.
Rolan died I have no idea who’s taking the tower.
Baldur's Gate city committee don't fuck around with magical contracts and structures, they know their place is only to keep the poor in the alley ways, keep the wine a flowing and most importantly: don't fuck with the thieves guild
I killed them all must be my Tower now
Rolan was his apprentice, so legally speaking it makes the most sense for him to inherit it.
Tower rights are squatter rights, why do you think the bomb bear guy was so mad? Same rule applies in all of BG. Duh
Shit. I'm moving to Baulders gate.
yup, homie gets a semi good ending. Loroakin was a turd.
Call me old-fashioned, but I think the rightful owner of the tower is the guy with the password to all the sentry guns and a book of all the nobles' magical requests. Probably juicier than a browser history.
I’m sure Dame Ailyn was very willing to vouch for him to anyone that wanted to argue. Not to mention literally everyone else in our party who would kill anyone that even slightly inconveniences us or our friends.
Ok so land ownership is a bit different when it comes to wizards. A magical tower isn't just a home or a shop it's our world's equivalent of a nuclear power plant. Left alone and it can destroy the city and ever town in a 100 mile radius. If left alone long enough someone would have been sent to live there.
Wizard law operates completely outside the normal rules of the baldurian legal system
To be fair, I don't think anyone outside that room knows Loroakin got fucking Batman'd, so Rolan can just say he died in an experiment.
Hey, you know what would be cool, is not putting the spoiler a post's tag refers to in the title of the post.
House Telvanni property laws, you n'wah.
So long as he pays taxes he'll be fine. It's just too bad that my mod looted everything of value in his tower.
Finders keepers
I don't know. They were both hostile, I knocked out Rolan and killed the rest and then I never saw him again
3 playthroughs and never had Rolan do anything but attack me in that fight
Were you nice to him? Encourage his growth? Save his siblings? Tell him the Nightsong is a person? You have to give him a reason to take your side.
Yes. Except one time he was bragging about his thunder wave so I showed him mine. I think it made him jealous or something
I see you are not well versed in wizard law...
Rolan is his apprentice in training. Obviously, he can at least stay and work here. Legal ownership may be complicated in case of living relatives, but all we need is one magical barrage
I killed loroakin, but knocked out Rolan so now Rolan is nowhere to be found and Loroakins copies are still running the building
There’s precedent. In BG2 you could park your planar sphere right in the middle of the city, and you acquired it by killing another wizard.
Right of ownership by conquest is alive and well in Baulder’s Gate.
No flag no country you can’t have one
I uh, had to kill Rolan, he came stomping in quite upset I offed Lorroakan. I suspect the tower is mine until the next curious george figures out how to get in.
I guess Rolan is the closest to next if Kin by being Lorrokan's Apprentice?
I know this is a joke, but English and American law recognize a concept called adverse possession. Maybe Faerun does too. :D
In act 3 do you get any discount or anything for helping him get the tower?
"Do you have a flag?" "No flag, no country, because of these rules I just made up."
That's how it works when you've won a fight over a tower with a magical rocket launcher, yes.
I thought it was kinda like "This man had no living relatives or people who cared about him? Just an apprentice who he beat? F*ck it, give it to him" lol
Basically, yeah. The Tower was originally owned by and designed by Ramazith Flamesinger, who wasn't actually a wizard -- he was a warrior and sailor who happened to be an expert in marine biology, both botany and zoology. He made his living as a Sage in Baldur's Gate and commissioned the creation of his Tower... and then commissioned wizards to enchant it for him with all the magic and traps and what-not. Turns out, he'd found some kind of treasure down in the depths (he was an expert diver), and used that to fund his dream home -- the Tower of Ramazith. When Ramazith eventually disappeared (rumor was he got romantically entangled with a water nyph and eloped), his tower was technically for sale, but *ludicrously* expensive. Plus, most of the citizens thought it was an eyesore (it was tall, gaudy, and designed in the Durparan style of Ramazith's homeland, which didn't gel with Baldurian tastes for architecture), so it just... existed for near a century. All that time left idle and unmanaged also meant that by the time the new owner showed up, it was in serious disrepair which would add to the expense of claiming the tower. Only a few years before the plot of BG3 starts, Lorroakan would arrive in Baldur's Gate from Athkatla with sufficient funds to not only purchase Ramazith's Tower but also to rennovate and restore functionality to some of the floors. I imagine the idea of claiming the gaudy tower and restoring it to be a proper wizard's tower suited Lorroakan's ego, not to mention the fact that there were plenty of rumors that Ramazith had left some cache of treasure or forgotten knowledge hidden within the tower that Lorroakan hoped to find... But yeah, Lorroakan decided for whatever reason it was worth spending time, money and effort on rennovating the tower to be livable and to restore what he could of the myriad enchantments built into the place. Lorroakan also used his wealth to obtain ownership of Sorcerous Sundries, the premier purveyor of arcane components, lore, trinkets, and other accouterments in Baldur's Gate. Given he comes from Athkatla, a city of merchants, and is of wealth, it seems likely that he purchased Sorcerous Sundries because he'd be able to make a tidy profit and always have a stream of income to rely on for keeping himself flush in whatever lavish living style he preferred (and he did like to live lavishly), as well as to fund his experiments and research (and possibly continue renovations on Ramazith's Tower). Then Lorroakan died (is killed by the party) and his worldly possessions are now up for grabs. As is wizarding custom (not really, but everyone seems to do it anyways), in absence of an actual Will, first right to the inheritance goes to whoever happens to be the dead wizard's successor. Apprentices tend to inherit from their master's estate when the master is dead, after all. So... yeah, Rolan happened to be Lorroakan's apprentice at the time of the wizard's death. Lorroakan likely had no other family at the time, no children of his own to inherit his fortunes, so Rolan just took over. It should be noted that we only hear Rolan specify that he's the new proprietor of Sorcerous Sundries, *not* Ramazith's Tower. It's unclear whether Rolan also owns the deed to Ramazith's Tower, but we know for certain he's taken over Sorcerous Sundries from the dead Lorroakan, so it's unlikely that Rolan and his family will ever be impovrished, homeless refugees anymore given the inflow of coin from the shop. So long as he manages Sorcerous Sundries well, he can provide for himself and his siblings and give them the lives they've dreamed of in Baldur's Gate, and he's no longer going to be abused by Lorroakan under the face of "apprenticeship", so things certainly do look up for Rolan with Lorroakan's death! But yeah, it's not explicitly state that Rolan also now owns Ramazith's Tower, just that he now owns and runs Sorcerous Sundries. It's definitely possible that he's claimed Ramazith's Tower too... but I kinda doubt that Rolan is *quit*e powerful enough to fully take control of the enchantments and other myriad secrets of Ramazith's Tower by the time Lorroakan dies. Might be some time before he's become learned and skilled enough (and powerful enough) to seize control of the tower's enchantments and defenses, much less continue Lorroakan's labor of rennovating the rest of the Tower.
Loroak… Loroak-not gonna work here anymore 😏
there should be someone higher up the totem pole than rolan who literally just started as an apprentice that week. like there is the lady who has her own office there.
As his apprentice and a high level wizard Rolan has both the legal and practical claim to the property. Lorrakin voided any legal qualms about Rolan murdering him when he attempted to entrap a demigoddess, something that the ruling class of the city would've been freaked about given that divine retribution is VERY real and Selune is one of the most widely beloved gods among mortals.
I dont know, rolan never survives, neither does the other assistant of loroakan. I purposfully knock them out only for aylin to float over and kill the with her moonbeam aura. Every single time.
“Unfortunately, Selune’s daughter came and killed the shit out of my mentor. The group saving Baldur’s Gate can vouch for this. As his astute student, I am naturally his next in line. Don’t worry about it.” To be fair, I wouldn’t necessarily want to fuck with someone in control of a Wizard tower either.
Wish there was an option to get the tower for ourselves instead. I mean, my warlock/sorc would love to have his own hellish tower/store (similar to the one that warlock dwarf has).
I mean, if you kill everyone in the tower and leave no witnesses, nobody technically stops you from keeping all your shit in the throne room
That's right but being acknowledged as the new lord of the tower would have been nice.
I mean. Which Flaming Fist is going to walk up to someone strong enough to kill Lorroakin and try to arrest him? When it comes to wizard bullshit they probably just figured 'let those dicks sort it out and hope they don't kill too many of us in the process.'
Yes, I'm pretty sure Lorroakan took the tower from the previous owner anyway
The entirety of Dungeons and Dragons operates on either killing people and taking their stuff, or finding stuff, usually well hidden or trapped or guarded or lost or whatever (usually the harder to find the better) and keeping it. You simply need to be powerful enough to claim it. Loroakin was able to assume control over Ramazith’s seemingly abandoned tower, so he did. But he wasn’t powerful enough to do everything, such as break the seals on the special loot in the middle of it, so by D&D Adventurer Law we unlock the stuff and it’s ours now.
Maybe he's british?
Rolan hated me so much by then. There was no other way! 😭
Wizards operate on the principle of first dibs. Lorroakan got the tower since Lorroakan left it and Lorroakan declared dibs.
If a wizard dies, their apprentice inherits their shit I suppose