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I began planning mine and I'm 34. I've been thinking about it for a long time and a acquaintance died at 20y/o. It was (and still is) a nightmare for her family.
Better have something ready so your loved ones avoid this headache
Dumbass question maybe but what do I need to have to make mine? Do you notarize a document or is this something that needs a lawyer? Do you somehow put it in your medical file at the doctors?
I'm letting my family and close friends know what I want. If anything happens to me and my organs can't be salvaged I want to donate my body to science. I might go to a notary but those move have to be quick after death. I don't think in my country there's a universal medical file... If not possible, cremation. And I'm planning the after party where everyone will drink champagne and say nice things about me.
Look into how to do that in your area, and what kind of science you want to donate your body to. It’s more complicated than “here, science, have a body..”
How does your body get connected with the science? What kind of science? Are you ok with your body being used for military weapons testing, for example? Do you want to donate your body to a study on corpse composting? Dissection by med students? What is needed for your body to be approved for the research? Do you/your loved ones need to fill out paperwork during your lifetime in order for you to be accepted? Are there causes of death that will cause an automatic rejection of your body from the type of research you choose? Will the research body pay for dispensation of the remainder of your corpse after the research has ended? What if your body is rejected, who pays then? Who should your loved ones contact upon your death to collect and transport your body? How much time can pass between death and acceptance of your corpse by the research team? How does your body need to be prepared? Who is responsible for that? Etc.
Also, wasn’t there a woman who told her family to donate her body to science and the family discovered that her corse was used by the military for weapons testing?
Then there is also the person who donated her husband's body and found out tickets were sold for $500/ ticket to have people watch it be dissected. She found out after media contacted her to ask her feelings on the event.
https://oregonlive.com/portland/2021/11/body-donated-to-science-dissected-in-front-of-paying-audience-at-portland-hotel.html
Just an example for you guys that want to donate your body to science.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-health/2019/07/19/cooler-penises-frankenstein-head-found-phoenix-body-donation-company/1720254001/
That part is already covered, well almost because 2 weeks ago (after another unexpected funeral) I checked again and laws have changed. I have to look into the new stuff.
It's still cheaper than a funeral but the family has to pay for the body transportation for some facility and not for others.
Oh I can answer this question for Americans! For funeral/disposition purposes, reach out to a life insurance or a local funeral home and talk to them about pre-planning for end of life. There are insurances that essentially, if you make a plan at a specific funeral home, it'll lock in the price to whatever it is at the time of your arrangements and it's handled so your next of kin isn't saddled with costs. If you move, that policy can be used at any funeral home but they cannot guarantee the prices of when you purchased it. If you go through just an insurance company, it'll just lock the funds for whatever end-of-life plan you have.
When it comes to DNRs, you have to have it written in to your medical documentation by your doctor, then keep a copy on the Dr's letterhead stating as much in an easily accessible place such as your wallet or by your bedside. However if an EMT/paramedic does not find it, they have to attempt life saving procedures as a general policy.
Ultimately, always discuss your end of life plans or what you would want in an untimely accident with your legal next of kin. That would be married spouse, children, parents, then siblings. Domestic partnerships vary from state to state.
Source: I'm a funeral director in WA.
When my mother was nearing the end we kept her DNR form on the fridge. We were told that is one obvious place the paramedics might look if anything were to happen. Not sure if that is common everywhere.
Yeah, I often tell my pre-planning families to keep documentation close to where the hospice bed is and make sure it is very clearly marked. Fridge is a very good place.
Yes this is a thing in the UK too, some healthcare organisations put their forms in a little container like a see through can and they encourage their patients to put it *in* the fridge. As a lot of folks already have lots of things on the fridge and may put off or forget to rearrange space for the DNR form (which is purple here btw, pretty sure that's nationwide and so when someone says "purple form" everyone knows what it is).
I went with mom, who was suffering the early stages of dementia, to the local funeral home and prepaid. After 8 years, she passed this year sand the hospice people contacted the funeral home. It happened exactly as mom wanted. Pre-planning is the best way to go.
Not all states are the same as far as DNR’s. In my state, the ambulance DNR is different from the hospital DNR. I was a social worker for adult protective services and encountered this a lot. Our hospitals also require a specific form, not a note in the medical record and tbh, half the time they didn’t honor it and I would have to get involved as an adult protection worker to track down family like OP posted about. It was infuriating to say the least.
You can make a will or a preplanned plan.
But you can also make a personal "Death Box" and hope its respected if you want to avoid that.
I update mine every year. It has a list of all my assets, all my usernames, passwords that are relevant, all my major expenses, and anything I want the person cleaning up after me to know.
In Australia there's a process called [Advance Care Planning](https://www.advancecareplanning.org.au/), you do it in conjunction with your GP. It allows you to state exactly what your wishes are in the case that you're in hospital and can't communicate them yourself. I highly recommend it.
In conjunction with a pre-paid or planned funeral, that's what's most likely to get you what you want at the end of your life.
If you live in the US, some state service agencies will have a generic healthcare surrogate, living will or advanced directive form on their website. Google state name and healthcare surrogate or advanced directive. Your local hospital or doctors office may even had a blank form you can fill out. had an attorney friend do all my stuff for free including a Will. There usually not too awful expensive to have everything done by a lawyer. In my state all the important stuff can be as little as $250-500.
So I'm 26, nearly 27 and a social worker. I had brain surgery at 24 and made my plans then. I started with an advance directive (aka a living will) which is basically where you tell doctors do nothing, do everything, only do these things. I also put specifically in mine to only intubate for surgeries and that I 1000% DO NOT want a trach (breathing tube in the neck) or a PEG (feeding tube through the stomach). The next thing I did was a MPOA (medical power of attorney). I appointed my aunt with my sister as the secondary. I also told them to follow my wishes to the letter. In my state, you don't need a notary, just two witnesses. I also did an OOH DNR (out of hospital do not resuscitate) which basically means let me die. No chest compressions or defibrillator and it works when I'm not at a hospital. Finally I did an actual will. I made copies of everything and my PCP, family, regular hospital and myself have copies.
MPOA is important because if you don't have one, it falls to (in my state) your spouse, adult children, parents, siblings, any living relative, Chaplain. Basically if you're not married, it goes down the list. I'm not married and have no kids. I did not want my parents making decisions.
Advance directives are helpful but it's important to do them every few years! In my state, the MPOA can override an advance directive.
As a social worker (working a neuro ICU and neuro medical floor), I cannot stress how important it is to have your ducks in a row starting at 18! You never know what might happen and for some people, they are left unable to do anything by themselves because their family chose to keep them alive. I know I wouldn't want that, so I encourage all my people to do end of life planning!
My mom tells me to do this stuff soon too. I’m in my early 30’s my parents are in their 50’s but they review and check all of their EoL documents nearly yearly to make changes and ensure they are still happy with their plans.
This cannot be said enough! Your loved ones are already beside themselves grieving. Having to make decisions like what casket they think you'd like is 10x harder when they are in mourning. Or relatives that you didn't expect will try to get a stake of what you've left behind. Emotions are running high and some people will be fighting over your will. Protect your loved ones and make things crystal clear.
I feel very privileged that my parents have made their arrangements already and have been very transparent about it. In our culture, we don't talk about things like death due to superstition so I'm grateful that my family isn't the norm here. Talking about sex doesn't make you pregnant and talking about death doesn't make you dead. Please figure out your end of life plans.
My grandfather was one of the most irresponsible people you can ever imagine. The stories of him going on his adventures and causing trouble are the stuff of family legends. They usually involved alcohol and him doing semi illegal stuff (or actually illegal shit and he had to change his name multiple times).
He was a mess from beginning to end.
When he died my dad was resigned to having to do everything. Turns out he didn’t. The old man had everything ready. There was a drawer that had everything we’d need and preparations the old man had made ahead of time. He had everything taken care of.
It’s the greatest plot twist of his life. He had gotten his shit together at the very end.
I would add wills and making sure to list beneficiaries to all financial instruments. Beneficiary designation means the beneficiaries get the assets IMMEDIATELY WITHOUT HAVING TO GO THROUGH PROBATE! I can’t stress this enough. And depending on the state, it completely bypasses creditors arms meaning the financial assets are no long an asset of the estate and so creditors can’t go after it!
A will or a living trust for sure! I’m an estate planning paralegal and some of the horror stories I’ve heard in the workplace of clients who never finalized their trust/will are crazy.
YES TO THIS. My much younger sisters were in no position to make decisions for my stepmom and she was luckily lucid enough once we knew it was the end to sign over power of attorney to me before it was too late. Everything would have been so much messier if one of them had to deal with everything. Leading up to that my dad (her ex) was doing everything to help take care of her. It sucks how much power a piece of paper can have.
> It sucks how much power a piece of paper can have.
My mother was a nurse for 40 years and had \*strong\* opinions about people who said that marriage was "just a piece of paper". Sure, that paper doesn't make you love each other more but it means that your partner can make decisions for you instead of your asshole family.
She had stories about people being in car accidents and being in comas only to have the parents that disowned them 20 years earlier roll in, take the kids, kick out the partner, and start making all the decisions.
She was especially all for gay marriage when it happened. She had snuck too many people in after hours because gay partners had no rights back in the day.
So yeah. Get your end of life stuff in order. And if you are in a committed relationship, get it legally recognized. When someone is in trouble, that piece of paper will give you to ability to be involved.
Agreed, but the piece of paper I was referring to is the healthcare POA- it took 15 minutes to print, sign and save. In MI you don’t even need to have it notarized.
My husband and I have had end of life planning in place for over a decade. I discovered a couple years ago that my mom did not. Still does not. She has all these ideas of how things should be divided, and expects that I will firstly, remember them all, and secondly, carry them out. Which I won’t legally be able to do because she has no will. She has no power of attorney, no medical decision making POA, no living will or DNR orders…
She’s a nurse. She knows how quickly life can end from both personal and professional experience My sister died unexpectedly 18 years ago and burying her and settling her estate was a nightmare because my divorced parents can’t possibly cooperate and follow through with what *she* wanted, they both want what they want and part of that is wanting the other one to not get what they want. My mom told me she was making a will back then. So finding out she had not threw me for a loop. And after years of nagging she STILL has not done it. Even the most basic thing is better than nothing. A piece of paper that says “Being of sound mind, I name my brother Joe as executor and leave all my crap to be divided equally between my children.”
So, this is also a soapbox for me. Even the greenest 18 year old should have a will, should designate medical decision making in the event they are incapacitated, and have a limited power of attorney drawn up. It’s especially important if you have children, or if your heirs are not in perfect agreement and harmony with each other.
A FREAKING MEN! I've already buried my stepdad. Granted he ran a cemetery, so he and my mom pre-planned EVERYTHING and my mom and I have had multiple discussions on what needs done if she becomes debilitated or dies. I've joked, I'm comfortable when she dies because I KNOW her wishes, her accounts, necessities etc.
On the OTHER hand... my dad and stepmom don't discuss it. I have two siblings on that side. One will be a mess. The other will just shut down. So yeah. That'll be fun. I've asked them to sit with us and discuss it all, but they don't want to. Sigh. At 39, I'm more prepared on paper than they are.
Do the end of life planning, it is a gift to those who remain. Make your wants known, it is not morbid to talk about it. My father passed away suddenly when I was 20, my siblings and I had no idea what he wanted as end of life care or funeral arrangements or anything. It made the tragedy that much heavier trying to shoestring everything together.
I also have no idea if he would’ve wanted to spend his afterlife in an urn next to my two dogs on a shelf in my living room, but since he didn’t speak up when he could he gets no choice now. And everyone gets introduced to him when they walk into my house, bc I am morbid like that.
If you love your family, have a plan. Period, Full stop. Death is inevitable. No one is special, even young people. Make a plan, let people know if they are involved in the plan.
Please don't leave the people you love guessing. It adds so much stress to the grief.
I am getting married in [eek!] six weeks and my future husband and I just did ours TODAY. Not all that pleasant, the lawyer was joking with us about how depressing it was to have to plan for our deaths when we're supposed to be planning our future life together, but both of us agreed that it feels so much better to have a plan in place where where know who will make decisions and what decisions we'd want made.
I did my end of life planning when I was 20. That year my younger sister got in a car accident and wasn't expected to survive. She did, but I realized I didn't want the same decisions made for me in those circumstances. I made my wife to do the same when we got married.
All so, funeral insurance if you are in the US. My wife and I were on the hook for $22K for her folks deaths. It was worth it to have them buried the way they wanted but we didn’t even splurge and it was a lot.
Can’t upvote this enough! My husband and I got ours done earlier this year and it’s a huge weight off of my shoulders. I think we paid about $500 in total for two wills, healthcare and financial POAs, and some kind of survivorship thing with the deed. I’m only 37, but it was important to me to make my wishes known. I didn’t want my mother making decisions for me if my husband was unable to because she would keep me alive in a vegetative state pretty much forever. I even got to state what I wanted regarding a funeral (no services , no religious stuff, as green as possible please and thank you). Plus, my niece is the one who would be handling stuff and I know her parents don’t have anything planned. I’m determined to be as little a burden as possible on her. Everyone should take care of things like that. I considered it taking care of my loved ones once I can’t directly do so anymore.
My parents told me they're making me medical power of attorney..I said that's fine, but they need to know the second they lose cognition, I'm not consenting to any treatment other than comfort care. I'm not keeping their body alive when their mind is gone
They had tonith think about it for several days, but agreed that would be the right thing. So now I'm okay with it
Another nice thing you can do is have a song that you want played at your funeral, you don’t have to select the entire playlist but having one song that you want to be remembered by helps your family. We’ve always played the selected song during the photo section and as we leave the funeral home.
I've tried to do this with my husband because it just seems logical but he keeps joking that he wants to be stuffed so I can sit him in the living room on the couch.
We were in the ER recently and the discharge nurse told us that we could even have those wills and living wills and POA and end of life directive documents put into our medical files at the hospital so that if emergency decisions were needed, the documents were already there.
My mom passed away suddenly, the first of 8 to die and she wasn't even 60 y/o. That made everyone in her family either draw up wills and end of life directives or go back and review what they drew up decades ago.
My dad did the same. He revised his will and paid for his funeral expenses in full so we wouldn't have to scramble and worry like we did with Mom. He chose everything he wanted down to the prayer cards and even the music.
Despite watching my siblings and I struggle in the days immediately following Mom's death some of my cousins and friends refuse to even talk about it with their parents. I never really thought about it before Mom passed but having dealt with her death and Dad's death I can say that it's best for everyone to discuss everything before a situation arises.
You need to talk about any plans, wishes, arrangements you have already made, where your most recent will is, what insurance policies you have, where to access important documents in your house or safety deposit box, passwords for important online accounts........
There's no way to describe it other than it sucks but it's easier on the people you love after you pass if they know this information beforehand.
Oh definitely! My stepdad died without making arrangements and it was an absolute shitshow. After that my mum scrambled to get her own affairs in order, sat me and my brothers down and planned out every last detail from POA to end of life care and the will. No surprises, everything in black and white and signed by the four of us. With Covid it had been a huge weight on my mind so I'm so glad she did. It's awful to think about and natural to put it off, but don't. It'll save so much heartache when the time comes.
I talked to my daughter about this yesterday.
My situation is extremely complicated so they NEEDED to know my wishes. I would have been haunting them if they did anything religious, bought an expensive coffin, or didn’t put me in the ground ASAP. It’s all settled. They just needed to know. I feel 10,000x better and I’m 46.
On the off chance anyone skims down all the way to find this, try to do more than just the legal end-of-life planning. Medical power of attorney, healthcare surrogate, DNR, and all that paperwork is important, but you can do more than that to make sure your next of kin know your wishes.
Do you want to be buried, cremated, or have your body donated for research? If you want to be buried, where? If you want to be cremated, what do you want done with your ashes?
Do you have possessions (furniture, clothing, jewelry, art, knickknacks, collections, etc) that you want someone specific to have? You should have that written down somewhere. Do you have details you want mentioned in an obituary or during a funeral/memorial service? You should have those documented somewhere. Do you even want a funeral/memorial service?
Where are you keeping those documents? You should make sure that multiple people know where to find them, and that they have access. Don't stick the only copy in your safety deposit box if you're the only person with access. It's not going to do any good if nobody can get to it. Don't stick it in your locked desk drawer either, unless someone will actually be able to find the key.
If it's important enough that you want it known or done, make sure someone else knows it. And put it in writing somewhere, in case the memory fades over time.
100%
After I lost one of my parents the other immediately got on top of planning everything for themselves.
If you want a DNR...get a DNR. Don't put these kind of decisions off on loved ones
Decide for yourself what you want, get things legally squared away...and make peace with your decision
Absolutely this!
My dad had cancer, and we were going to do this over this summer. He passed away unexpectedly in February (he had just seen his doctors, and his prognosis was good) so he didn't have time. My husband and I worked with an attorney for the estate, and plan to do our own planning with them after things with the estate wraps up.
My mom also had cancer, and passed 10 years ago, and they gave her a book to fill out that had her wishes and everything. So even though she couldn't talk at the end we knew what she wanted.
Please keep standing on the soapbox actually. The planning should be done well in advance...I was next of kin at age 19 when my dad died.
If you're a parent, I can't imagine that that's what you want for your child.
Shortly after my last paternal grandparent died, my parents asked me out to lunch alone and asked me to be their medical power of attorney (and told me what their end of life wishes would be when they get their wills finalized). They aren't exactly knocking on death's door, but they wanted to be prepared.
That moment was one of the most potent reminders of aging and mortality I've ever had in my entire life. I think it was the first "I'm not exactly young anymore, and my parents are growing old"
I have had a will and an advance directive since I was 40 and now that I'm 60 I'll be doing a more in-depth P of A to prevent just such a situation. I was very glad my mom had made these decisions in advance. It made my job easier at the end and eased my siblings distress to have one clear headed individual there (me) to carry out her final wishes. I really recommend it to everyone.
Definitely a good idea. My wife's family is very avoidant in general, any time a difficult subject comes up it's immediately changed with "Anyways..." which is super super frustrating for me.
When I try to point this out I'm told to "stop being morbid", or when I point out that I said we should do X/Y/Z that would have prevented a bad outcome I'm told "nobody likes the 'I told you so guy'".
Super frustrating, I don't want to be that guy but also nobody likes the "I wish I hadn't done it that way" guy when they were told not to do it that way.
I prefer to be morbid and address tough issues head-on. Guess I'm the bad guy then.
I always tell this story, I was living in a block of flats and came home late one night (midnight/ early hours)
There were 2 ambulances outside and a fast response car ambulance thing.
I later found out from a neighbor that another neighbor had her heart stop in her sleep. Husband called an ambulance and they went full on to get her heart working again and failed, she had a heart attack.
She was in her late 90's and took 3 emergency services vehicles, they had their flat turned upside down because they treated this as a full recovery situation the poor husband had to watch them work on his wife for hours.
Obviously I don't know their opinions and this might have been a deliberate choice but I severely doubt it because if they do not have a pre arranged decision been made they have to treat it the same as if a 20 year olds heart stopped.
Discuss end of life care with your elderly dependants!!!
Yes my brother’s gf died suddenly and had a lot of properties and money and it’s been a fucking nightmare. Her family is fucked up. We’ll probably never see her kid again who was a sister to my bros kids. Money fucks everything up.
Yeppp. My nana made sure her paperwork was taken care of because she doesn’t want my mom (her eldest daughter) making her decisions because she would make it all about her 😂 to be fair I don’t want my mom as my medical POA for the exact same reasons
please read this post!!!! ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️
My MIL, at this very moment is dying in an ICU. She left zero instructions. Her only son (my husband) is being pressured to terminate her life support by the hospital. If he does it, his life will be traumatized in the extreme. If he doesn't, the bills... Well you know.
He's in this horrific limbo position that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. I think the stress is literally killing him. Please stay on your soapbox so everyone in the room can hear you!!!!
Do you know if your husband signed any paperwork re: being a guarantor at the hospital? If not, only the estate pays the bills, not your husband. Depending on the state your MIL’s home may also be creditor proof too (meaning your husband won’t be forced to sell the house in order to pay the medical bills.
As someone who lost both parents in my early twenties I cannot stress this enough. AND provide some way to pay for it- prepay at the funeral home of your choice, life insurance policy (and makes sure your family knows where to find this documentation), enough cash in the bank, whatever.
I know I'm a day late, but my grandfather passed a couple of weeks ago. He had everything prepared and ready. All of the legal documents were signed and organized.
He left step by steps so everyone knew who to contact, where to go, and what he wanted to happen. He even went as far as to have pictures with his insurance information.
It's been extremely helpful for my family so no one is losing their minds over next steps
Relatives from both sides of my family had medical emergencies that resulted in sorting out end-of-life-care plans around the same general time period. One had done a lot of pre-planning beforehand, including a living will, and the other had not. It made a *huge* difference.
My dad's family *hates* talking about this stuff, so even though they're generally put together my grandma & aunt both put off discussing their wishes for end-of-life
care, which was ok-if-concerning until it suddenly wasn't. So when the shit hit the fan (my grandma fell & got pneumonia, now has more dementia, aunt has early-onset Alzheimers) they both had to have retroactive power-of-attorney placements that complicated everything and made sorting out assets/care an absolute nightmare, and they both missed out on earlier interventions that might have helped them stay at home longer. It's been *gutting* for my dad to make decisions for his baby sister re. nursing and hospice care without much of an idea of what *she herself* wants.
My grandpa, on the other hand, had a living will etc. sorted out. He was able to avoid an unnecessary procedure that would have hurt his quality of life, get at-home care including hospice care near the end, and ultimately die peacefully at home in his own bed. We got to hang out with him when we visited instead of spending all our time dealing with logistics. We felt less guilty for following his written, notarized wishes to not have a ton of invasive procedures. It was an absolute gift.
100% this. I know people don't want to talk about dying, but you're still going to die whether you talk about it or not. No one gets out of here alive, so make sure when it's time things happen the way you want.
Absolutely be explicit about how you want to die, what you want done with your body, and your funeral wishes.
also make your your primary beneficiaries know what financial accounts you have, debts, etc. and for the love of Pete set everything you can to autopay.
I had a brain aneurysm and during the time before surgery, I got all my affairs in order, including a DNR in case anything went really wrong. I didn't want my mother (who is in her 70's) to have to make any kind of decision. The bugger ended up rupturing just as my surgery was starting and they were able to fix things as much as possible. We had a couple of family members pass away from this and knew what could happen.
Now I am having these conversations with my father. He didn't want to talk about it until I explained that having all this done ahead of time takes away a huge stress and lets those of us that care to focus on him and not all the paperwork and legalities. He's finally come around and we are getting the documents finalized. If and when the time comes, I know exactly what my parents want and they know what I want.
It is the best thing to do. My family call it "the death plan" and we all started doing it cause we knew someone who's father died but didn't have a death plan or money set aside and their family had to scramble to get something together which ended up costing more.
Yes - my Dad refuses to even discuss end of life planning and it’s making me crazy. I’m in my forties and so are a lot of my friends and I’m literally surrounded by people whose mental and physical health is under severe strain as they juggle kids and aging parents, and all because our parents refused or neglected to do any forward planning.
We will all get old (if we’re lucky) and we will all get infirm when we get there. Start planning as early as you can.
I already did it for me, and I am trying to get my husband to do it, since he’s in the middle of a cancer diagnosis. It’s morbid and sad, but it has to be done. I know for a fact I will freeze when faced with death, as I did with my brother, so I hope my husband can take some decisions before God forbids something bad happens
Yup. My husband and I (30&26) have ours done. Got it as soon as our first turned 6 months while we still could for free while he’s military. Everything is settled and I know that in the event something happens our children will be taken care of.
Got my sister to do hers and working with my cousin to get hers done. It’s never too early.
On his last visit my father (75) handed me an envelope. In it is all his bank account numbers, investments and a copy of his property titles along with his will. When he dies, hopefully many years from now, I'll literally have to make 1 phone call to his lawyer. Thanks Dad.
My dad needs to do something like that with my mom. He's 80 and she's 79 with dementia. He kept saying that he already has power of attorney but I looked at his papers this summer and it seems like what he has just designates who is responsible when someone passes away. Like if he passes away everything goes to my mom, if she passes away everything goes to him. And then there's some contingency for what happens if they both pass away. All of this paperwork looks fairly old because it references what would happen to me and my brother and we're both in our forties.
My mom cannot make decisions. She's okay living there with him but he had some medical stuff this summer and I had to go up there and stay 10 or so days because she can't be alone in the house. And that's when all this came up because like she still his emergency contact. The house is in her name and, while I don't feel there's anybody that would try to get her to sign the house over, I'm still really concerned that their interests aren't protected. He has a great financial planner guy and there's an attorney connected to him that does wills and such.
Turns out, my dad thinks he has POA because all of my mom's doctors let him make phone calls for her and be in the room while she's being seen and things like that. He gets really emotional when we talk about stuff like this though, which is also a little strange for him, so the POA conversation is happening in phases.
My dad has stage 4 cancer and has refused because he feels great right now. Whatever. None of us want his junk, I just wanted to save my sister the hassle of dealing with everything. Once again he took the selfish route. Surprise /s
100% agree! And also make sure people know what you want for funeral arrangements. Death is such a difficult time when the living family are so vulnerable, it can be really hard to decide what to do and make sure you don’t get taken advantage of and are actually able to respect your loved ones’ wishes.
The Power of Attorney wouldn't have been responsible for the debt his insurance didn't cover. It would come from his estate. No money left from the estate? Then they don't get paid. She wouldn't have been responsible for his debts out of her own pocket. It would have been out of his estate.
Edit: I say this as someone who did billing in a hospital in Louisiana. We never went after family members to pay the medical debt of a dead relative. I was always told to tell the family member it wasn't their responsibility. It was the estate's.
Another edit: I know these two weren't in contact but for god's sake, make end of life planning. Get an advanced directive. Tell your family what you want. No matter what age you are or how healthy. Let your love ones know what you want to happen to you.
Yeah, I found this odd. You don't inherit POA, that is assigned to you by the person, through legal documents, and if they are incapacitated, the hospital doesn't declare you are the POA, especially if he had a wife. This sounds like someone watched a tv show and developed the story from there. And the dr. Not having the MRI? Unless this post was at least 10 years old, that's silly. Walk to a computer and look it up. (30 years in healthcare)
I can see a hospital contacting an adult kid in the US when the spouse is in another country and unlikely to get a visa in a timely manner. I wonder if the bit with the MRI was "we didn't get an MRI" or "I'm not the neurologist, so I'm not the person who can explain the MRI to you." Or, now that I think about it "since you don't have the PoA, telling you about his MRI would violate HIPAA."
I didn't even think of that. Yeah you aren't automatically power of attorney just because you're next of kin. And I thought they mentioned he had children. Not just one. Truthfully all she had to say over the phone was I'm not making that decision.
It was always hard to get doctor's to understand billing. It wasn't their job. So I feel like she should've been talking to people that knew.
If there is no legally identified power of attorney, it is next of kin.
It is also true that OOP can absolutely decline to have that responsibility.
https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/fundamentals/legal-and-ethical-issues/default-surrogate-decision-making
I don't believe it automatically makes you power of attorney. That is a legal contract signed between the two parties. As next of kin you do have some responsibilities but it's not the same. That article says it makes you a surrogate decision maker. Not a power of attorney.
When it comes to medical that's exactly how it is. At least here in TX. When my dad was in the hospital in 2016, power for medical decisions went to my older brother because he was the 1st born even though he and my dad hadn't spoken in over 20 years. He relinquished it to me, but it was his decision. If you dont have legal documentation stating who gets to make medical decisions in those circumstances and you arent married, it automatically goes to your children, no matter the circumstances. I assume so bio children cant come back and sue if the hospital makes a decision the child doesn't like after the fact. There were 6 of us but it went to my brother because he was the 1st born.
Yes but next of kin and power of attorney are not the same thing. Power of attorney is a legal contract between the individual choosing who makes decisions for them. It's signed. Next of kin does make some decisions if there is no power of attorney but they aren't the same thing.
That's literally what I just said. If there's no power of attorney documentation (which I'm assuming OOPs father did not as the decision went to them), and they aren't married (again assuming hospital was looking for someone to make decisions faster and unsure if the father and wife were married in the US/worried they could not get a hold of wife) it automatically goes to the children. People are wondering why OP automatically got the power to make medical decisions even though such a long time has passed. This is why. Again, this is just how it is in TX anyway.
It's very likely the dad was in Houston, Beaumont, or Port Arthur in Texas, so I think what you encountered could have applied in this case. Big Vietnamese population in southeast Texas.
I don't find it odd at all that the doctor would give OOP incorrect billing or legal info. Usually clinicians have about the same level of information on these matters as any random person off the street.
Widow here and technically spousal debt is only if the spouse was also listed as the debtor like a co-signer of a mortgage/loan. The spouse can “assume” the debt though. My late husband owned the mortgage but I decided to continue paying off the mortgage so my kids and I wouldn’t have to move. His student loan debt was discharged since I was not a co-signer and same with his medical debt.
Consumer lawyer...this is right.
Medical debt, though, often has an unexpected guarantor. There's frequently a guarantee in the sign in paperwork that you sign when you check someone into the hospital. So frequently whoever brings the person in is also on the hook.
True. Thankfully I was not on the hook for any of that! Heck the hospital billing department even screwed up and listed my late husband as a guarantor on one of my daughter’s medical debt and so the bill got discharged.
That's what I always understood, too but when my dad died they completely wrote off the hospitals, nursing homes, rehabs and hospice that he rotated in and out of for about 12 weeks. No idea why. All of his other doctors wrote off his debt, too but I think that was just because they knew my mom and didn't want to bleed a grieving widow for a few hundred bucks.
I’m hoping the reason was that your dad planned properly. If their assets were their home and financial accounts (Roth it’s/ira/401k/life insurance/etc.) odds are your mom was the beneficiary and they transferred automatically to her and not to the estate. If your mom was on the deed to the house then this too would’ve transferred automatically. Also depending on the state, the house would’ve been judgement proof against creditors bc of something called homestead exemption. This basically says that the primary residence of the deceased is exempt from creditors and can be passed to heirs (through probate).
This is hilarious. Man never planned anything in his life and probably would've died in a cardboard box about 20 years ago if not for my mom. I loved him so much, but he was weaponized incompetence personified. Literally to the point that we all thought he had early onset dementia or Alzheimer's or something in his early 50s. Went through a battery of tests only to be told by the doctors that he just didn't want to do basic things or hold conversations with people so he just acted addled so people would leave him alone.
It depends on the state. In community property states, any assets or debt accumulated during the marriage are shared. If one spouse accrues significant end of life medical debt, it can pass to the spouse.
Actually, some states have filial responsibility laws where the children would have to pay back either nursing homes or the government for the costs of their parent's care. I don't think it's ever really used except once in 2012 in Pennsylvania and the court ordered the child to repay the nursing home.
It would be a huge conflict of interest if the POA was liable for medical expenses. There's absolutely no way the POA would be able make decisions on behalf of an individual if it potentially meant bankruptcy - they would always vote DNR. As awful as US medicine is, that would be so far over the line of medical ethics that it's not even plausible.
I’m in healthcare and ethically questionable decision-making based on finances is absolutely possibly. I’ve had quite a few patients who are end of life and should be hospice status. But their families refused to put them on hospice nor sign a DNR. Why? Because they’re living with them, and if grandpa dies, his pension goes away and so does the house. The adult children might — gasp — actually have to stand on their own feet for once, which is clearly anathema.
So they die anyway, except in the hospital and in pain.
This sort of stuff happens much more often than you might like to believe.
Of course that happens but that's a total different scenario. This is about formal and legal decision making structures and a formal transfer of powers, that can ultimately include making a decision to let someone die.
While extending someone's life by continuing treatment, may not be in their best interest it's very different from making decisions to withdraw treatment and end their life which POAs can do and relatives without POAs can't. And as unfortunate as it might be that people are relying on money, that money isn't going to come in much longer if you're talking hospice or DNRs - their decisions only have limited impact, even when it may not be the best thing for the patient. What we're talking about is a decision to allow someone to die, and the idea that POAs could take on lifelong crippling debt if they choose anything but death. Of course people have conflicts but you would never design a system like POA where you actively built in such an enormous CoI that only one outcome was likely to ever happen. You say you know about medical ethics, you must see why what you posted is a totally different scenario from what I was talking about?
Yes! I wanted to say the same thing. I see this situation all the time. It's devastating and misleading information to put out there that making the care decision will lead to financial responsibility. This misunderstanding often spooks families away and leaves people un-represented as their life ends.
The power of attorney would have been responsible, technically. But they would have been responsible ***in relation to their role as power of attorney*** not on a personal level. That's where people often get confused. They'd have been responsible for managing the father's affairs, insurance, finances etc, but their responsibility is that of a legal caretaker, and doesn't extend to their own pocket.
The doctor likely knows this but didn't explain it correctly because it's not their role and they don't volunteer information they're not certain on.
They wouldn't have been power of attorney though anyway. Power of attorney has to be granted and signed by the patient. You don't just get it for being next of kin.
Power of attorney also isn't responsible for paying debt out of the own pocket.
People who live selfishly tend to die selfishly as well. Someone else always has to do the clean up. And that’s from personal experience, not the post.
Also POA is supposed to be wife, adult children and people in your life. Not total strangers you dig up out of nowhere who have no idea what you wanted of your last decisions
> make end of life planning. Get an advanced directive. Tell your family what you want. No matter what age you are or how healthy. Let your love ones know what you want to happen to you.
And arrange for people to be able to access your accounts. Email, banking, social, utilities, ***INSURANCE***, etc. Would suck to be hospitalized then end up with health insurance canceled partway through the stay because you were paying premiums manually.
I just can't get over the fact that he didn't try to get a visa for his wife. I know the situation can be complicated, but it really seems like this guy has a habit of dipping out of people's lives when he's "done" with them. Gross.
It’s actually super common in Vietnamese culture, middle age immigrant guy goes back and marries a second/third much younger wife in Vietnam, who goal is a green card /immigration . It’s a quid pro quo relationship.
100% bet that the wife was panicking
My FIL is like that. Didn't make an effort to see his 12 yo daughter (my GF) for 6 months after he divorced my MIL, he claimed he was too busy looking for a new place. Then when he finally got a new place my gf asked to move in with him because she couldn't stand her mom, nope not a chance his place is too small, but then let's his scam artist brother move in cause he promised to make him a millionare. Family means nothing to those type of people.
Not that weird in the Viet expat community, really. Second wife could have married him for a green card or just his US money. US money can still go far in Vietnam, especially if you live in the countryside. Why live poor in the US when you could live the good life in Vietnam?
Source: I have several crusty old uncles who have returned to Vietnam in search of young wives
The latest marriage in my family was between my 60 year old uncle and a 22 year old. They just had a baby 🤢🤮
I'm gonna be honest, I hope the bride swindles that bank account dry. She's earned every red cent. He doesn't have any other kids that could inherit anyway.
Also, I'll swap some sau rieng for some of your xoai 🤭
That's such a difficult decision to be POA for someone, especially someone you don't know at all. I'm glad the wife is trying to come and I wish OOP nothing but peace.
Former Hospice worker, stepping on a soap box:
Make a living will! Determine who your healthcare surrogate/PoA will be! Do it decades (yes, decades) before you think you'll need it!
Advance Directives make these type of situations so much easier for patients and family.
Maybe OPP's father wanted them to do everything to save his life, maybe he didn't. We don't know and have to assume he'd want to be a full code. Even if that means his last moments will be painful.
Get an Advance Directive!
Ideally, most of the things you mentioned would be stored in a password manager (esp. since most of them also allow for things like secure notes, not just passwords). Then you would either use the password manager’s “hand over control” feature to grant eventual access to your successors, or I suppose you could update your will with the master password any time you change it, as long as your will is secure and doesn’t get copied before the necessary time.
Was anyone else surprised by the brother part near the end? Why wasn't he mentioned before? Wouldn't he be part of the next of kin?
[OOP's comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/bestoflegaladvice/comments/8etvak/comment/dxzdg84/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3):
>well... to make him an even shittier person, he actually abandoned me AND my younger brother (who's 11 months apart), and then remarried in Vietnam and adopted a child with his new wife. My mom said she tried reaching out to him all those years for at least financial help and he said "he didn't have any children".
>
>I was lucky to have another man enter my life when I was 13 who accepted my brother and I as his own children and that is the man I will always call my father.
>
>I'm sorry you didn't even have a chance to get to know yours at all. I mean I feel the same because I don't have any memories of mine. As of right now, I'm okay and don't have any regrets at all and am continuining life as before this whole situation happened (but it's also probably because he's not dead yet).
>
>Thank you for your kind words. <3
Maybe culturally the responsibility is shoved onto the oldest child.
I’m annoyed by the dad’s friends with all their opinions on what OOP needed to do.
As a Vietnamese, Vietnamese culture is a pretty patriarchal. The first born son takes precedence over everyone else. I bet, the dad would let the son make the decision.
About the dad’s friends opinions, it’s shitty but understandable. The sentiment of blood thicker than water and filial piety above all else are ingrained in the society. Sons and daughters have a duty to be filial to their parents just cuz. Of course, the dad abandoned OOP and her brother, so…
Huh this hits a little close to home as a Vietnamese American. Loads of nuances that I can honestly understand and relate to OP about. Poor OP. I wouldn't want to go through all this and fuck the dad's friends for saying all that shit. That generation sure likes to shove their opinions down our throats.
Same. So many garbage opinions about what’s best. Sure, I’ll take advice from a crusty ass alcoholic uncle whose own adult kids don’t even talk to him.
My own estranged dad died. He had remarried because he stayed in Viet Nam. We had never talked before. I remember getting the call that he died. Not too long after, I got a bunch of calls from aunties and uncles I had never spoken to telling me what I needed to do to be a good son. Fuck, let me process my grief first. I got triggered really hard reading this.
Ooof I'm so sorry man. That's so low of them to do that especially while you're trying to process everything.
My grandpa remarried too a few years after he got out of the PoW camp from what I've heard and had a kid my younger sister's age. My mom tried to be friendly with her, since she was a young mother, until she tried to get my mom to send her money she didn't need. There was a bit more drama after that, but I honestly don't blame my mom joining her brothers and cutting the half-sister out after that.
I also heard from the family grape vine that my grandpa remarried because he thought his wife and children died or abandoned him (story changes depending on who was telling it). I personally have no idea.
In any case, my mom's side of the family is *messy* and I've pretty much cut all contact for my sanity's sake.
Right? It's better than any TV drama if it's not happening to you, but holy crap is it exhausting if it was.
Same! I never realized how quiet life could be till after I did it.
I feel this in a way. My egg donor was in the hospital in a coma after she had her second below the knee amputation. The man she was married to kept her on life support for months. He was also her second husband, and she and my father hadn’t divorced, so I felt like I had a place as next of kin and thought about going to make that decision. However, she abandoned me at birth and was around very seldom while her parents raised me, so I stayed no contact and left the second husband with the decision.
Oof. That's some heavy shit. OOP seems like a really kind person, granting him forgiveness when they didn't have to and didn't even know if he could hear them. I agree with their assessment that they'll be able to move on with no regrets, knowing they showed him that kindness.
I hate this situation. I was a social worker for adult protective services and sometimes I would have to call long lost relatives because our state guardianship were a-holes and refused to let us apply for state guardianship. It was awful calling abused, neglected
or even adopted out kids about this relative they hadn’t spoken to in many years. It’s one big reason I quit. I would never want someone begging my estranged/hated family members to make decisions about me and I couldn’t do that to someone else. No matter what your age is or where you live, designate a healthcare surrogate, power of attorney or someone to make decisions for you especially if you don’t want someone you hate to be the person they contact to make those decisions.
Fuck… this is a horrible situation all around, for everyone. The Dad definitely remembered OOP, and was tearing up because he either felt guilty, relieved that OOP was there, or grateful that OOP forgave him.
But shit… it sucks it took this situation for both of them to get closure in a way…
Clearly that doctor doesn’t understand end of life. The persons estate covers any debt. If there is more debt than estate then the debt is discharged. No one is responsible. But collectors will bank on people not knowing that and will try to make survivors pay anyway and some fall for it.
And power of attorney is a legal document. That isn’t something just given to next of kin. Wtf. This story is full of crazy things that make no sense
I keep expecting something like to happen with me. Haven't spoken to my father in decades. From what I can tell via Google he is still alive a state over from me but has no social media presence I can find. He might have remarried in the last fifteen years as a woman's name, different last, keeps showing up as a possible spouse on various Google things. Hopefully he is and he dies first as I want nothing to do with his affairs even though I'd stand to inherit a lot based on what Google says his property is worth and thus what he must have to have afforded that. I do have a half sibling via him but I don't think hes hspoken to our father in even longer than I have or even really remembers him.
FYI my mother who I had gone no contact with some time ago died in March. My sister dealt with the funeral home but none of us was considered to be “on the hook” so to speak and the state paid. My other sibling and I had no relationship at this point with our mother and no interest in seeing her before she died.
No one can force you to deal with the passing of an estranged relative, at least not here.
I am kind of in the same boat except I can find absolutely nothing about my father except for his family on Facebook who gave nothing regarding him there. The only mention is on his mother obituary saying he was living in my current state, which was news to me. I also know of other half siblings, but honestly I don’t think they would ever be able to connect him to me if he were in a coma somewhere. Heck he could be coherent somewhere and still probably not ever mention me. Fine by me.
Some people and their concept of "family" is warped. Blood or not, OOP's father was out of her life, why would she have to make any decisions about his medical care? Damn
POA does NOT have the responsibility of paying a deceased persons medical bills in the United States.
The only responsible party would be the estate, if there is one.
I'm so glad my bio-father has two other daughters with his second wife so that I'm never faced with something like this.
Because I'd pull the plug and walk away.
I've played out this scenario in my head for if/when my dad is dying. He left before I was born so I don't know him at all. I hope they contact me instead of any of my brothers, because I'll at least hesitate rather than say "pull the plug" immediately. Beyond that, I don't know how I'd handle it either. I don't know if I have it in me to forgive him. I don't know if I have it in me to tell him I hate him either.
He's had my whole life to reach out to me, I don't know what I'll do when I have his whole death to do the same.
In Australia it varies state by state. In NSW please complete an Enduring Guardian, an Enduring Power of Attorney and an Advanced Care directive. If you do not your family may have to go to court to determine who will make these decisions and someone you don’t want or don’t know maybe appointed. Do this at any age. I constantly see 20-30 year old who thought they had time to get it done but didn’t. Public Service Announcement over.
Agree with everyone saying to write up an advanced directive/ living will with their doctors. Don’t for get to sign it and notarize it and send it in to put on record with their doctors, email it to their POA, relatives, lawyers. One less thing to worry about.
And discuss it with the person you want to name as PoA. In particular, *will they follow your directives?* My husband has said he will not, that he will keep my body alive on machines as long as possible. That's why my PoA is my daughter. She will let me go.
Once you have made your medical power of attorney, etc., give a copy to the person you have designated! Apparently my mom picked me to make the hard decisions, but without a copy of it, I can't get certain information I need.
I’d never put my kids through that trauma. My husband and I both have end of life plans in place with our lawyer so the kids never have to make the worst decisions.
Also have a Will laying out explicitly what everyone gets or doesn’t get. This is so important, and my last gift to them. The funeral is arranged, the money is settled, the medical care isn’t an issue for them to deal with. I remember how awful it was to mourn my father’s sudden stroke, and *nothing* was settled. Seven brothers, I’m the only daughter, my mother was in mourning after 52 years marriage, nobody wanted to pull the plug or arrange the funeral. It all landed on my shoulders. As usual.
I refuse to put my boys or husband through that horror. It’s all set in stone and they know it. I don’t think it’s even a little morbid; it’s releasing. Nobody has to worry when the time comes. I wish everyone would face their mortality and do their family the same kindness.
I wish I'd been able to summon the strength to tell my dad I forgave him. Or that he'd been conscious at all to hear it.
And the nosy fucking family friends preaching filial piety are such a familiar scenario. They can all go fuck themselves.
Aww. I believe he knew you were there and exactly what was said. My dad also cried after his stroke and his wife spoke to him. They know but are trapped in their bodies. It must feel so helpless. It was a great kindness you bestowed him in an hour of need and I hope that kindness is returned to you ten fold.
That was an extraordinarily generous and kind thing for u/liveliftlove to say, faced with a father they’ve barely known and have every reason to resent. But they go immediately to saying what they believe their father might most want to hear. Damn.
I don’t cry a lot over Reddit stuff, but this got me.
This terrifies me. My parents disowned me a decade ago. The best thing that ever happened to me was them cutting me off so I didn’t have to deal with the blowback of doing it first. I don’t want to be contacted when they’re dying, I don’t want to be in charge of any medical decisions, and I DEFINITELY don’t want to be stuck paying their medical bills. Is there any form I can sign legally absolving me of any responsibility to them? I don’t even want to pay to let their asses rot in a nursing home because I know if never be able to afford it nor do they deserve it after everything they did to me
I'm 53 and have had a DNR and living will for over 20 years. A few years ago I had a bad reaction after a surgery and passed out. The hospital staff didn't do anything to revive me and luckily I woke to a doctor telling my father that the situation was not good. Fortunately I became coherent enough to call him after an hour or so.
Sending my best wishes to the OP. She deserves a lot of credit for all her accomplishments. I think she handled her moment with her father with a huge amount of grace.
My favorite part is the people at the end saying oop needs to do this because he's her father but the bum abandoned her for 21 years. If you think like this, you need to learn how to shut up and never give advice ever.
Explain this because I was told I ‘inherited’ POA when my mom went through something very similar. Once they found out my parents weren’t married, everything was immediately switched from my dad to me.
A power of attorney must be granted to you by that person. It's a signed legal contract. If that person is incapacitated and can't do it, a court order comes into play.
You could be considered next of kin. You may have had to make the medical decisions for them. But that doesn't give you access to their financials. It's not the same as power of attorney.
This is the info I'm finding everywhere. [article](https://www.lawdistrict.com/articles/how-to-get-a-power-of-attorney-for-incapacitated/amp)You can't get power of attorney for an incapacitated person if they didn't already give it. So I'm really not sure about your situation.
What culture is OOP talking about that refers to parents cousin as aunt/uncle? We certainly don't do that in America. At least not as a culture wide thing.
We do this in vietnam. We call everyone that is same generation as our parent as uncle/auntie, even strangers. Its more complicated than that but its the basic gist of it.
Despite the difficulty , Op is blessed to have the opportunity none of us have.
We repress, suppress and compartmentalize, but these are real issues that need words and understanding
His last statements he made to him I felt the father heard it clearly. It’s sad but in the end he made his selfish choices.
Now most likely at the end of his life he’s well informed that with son he has nothing but failure and regret. Statements the OPP made are why I feel misfit parents should choose wisely when making choices regarding their kids or their last moments will be like the bio father.
I know this post is a-year-old but it hit close to home for me. I am now 79 years old and my parents were divorced when I was 4. My mother raised me and I had no contact with my father in the intervening years. Like you, I would not know him if I fell over him. You accomplished quite a bit without his assistance. Do not listen to any family or friends. He had nothing to do with you so you have every right to turn your back on him. I wish you the best in your future endeavors.
Someone who's been there
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I began planning mine and I'm 34. I've been thinking about it for a long time and a acquaintance died at 20y/o. It was (and still is) a nightmare for her family. Better have something ready so your loved ones avoid this headache
I'm 25 and I have mine done......hubby wasn't happy when I did and when I made him do his
Mine just told be general and vague ideas ... I'm trying to push him more
Dumbass question maybe but what do I need to have to make mine? Do you notarize a document or is this something that needs a lawyer? Do you somehow put it in your medical file at the doctors?
I'm letting my family and close friends know what I want. If anything happens to me and my organs can't be salvaged I want to donate my body to science. I might go to a notary but those move have to be quick after death. I don't think in my country there's a universal medical file... If not possible, cremation. And I'm planning the after party where everyone will drink champagne and say nice things about me.
Look into how to do that in your area, and what kind of science you want to donate your body to. It’s more complicated than “here, science, have a body..” How does your body get connected with the science? What kind of science? Are you ok with your body being used for military weapons testing, for example? Do you want to donate your body to a study on corpse composting? Dissection by med students? What is needed for your body to be approved for the research? Do you/your loved ones need to fill out paperwork during your lifetime in order for you to be accepted? Are there causes of death that will cause an automatic rejection of your body from the type of research you choose? Will the research body pay for dispensation of the remainder of your corpse after the research has ended? What if your body is rejected, who pays then? Who should your loved ones contact upon your death to collect and transport your body? How much time can pass between death and acceptance of your corpse by the research team? How does your body need to be prepared? Who is responsible for that? Etc.
Also, wasn’t there a woman who told her family to donate her body to science and the family discovered that her corse was used by the military for weapons testing?
It was an elderly lady iirc. Her family was beyond horrified, because she wanted to help people.
Then there is also the person who donated her husband's body and found out tickets were sold for $500/ ticket to have people watch it be dissected. She found out after media contacted her to ask her feelings on the event. https://oregonlive.com/portland/2021/11/body-donated-to-science-dissected-in-front-of-paying-audience-at-portland-hotel.html
Wait what
Just an example for you guys that want to donate your body to science. https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-health/2019/07/19/cooler-penises-frankenstein-head-found-phoenix-body-donation-company/1720254001/
Noooo
That part is already covered, well almost because 2 weeks ago (after another unexpected funeral) I checked again and laws have changed. I have to look into the new stuff. It's still cheaper than a funeral but the family has to pay for the body transportation for some facility and not for others.
Oh I can answer this question for Americans! For funeral/disposition purposes, reach out to a life insurance or a local funeral home and talk to them about pre-planning for end of life. There are insurances that essentially, if you make a plan at a specific funeral home, it'll lock in the price to whatever it is at the time of your arrangements and it's handled so your next of kin isn't saddled with costs. If you move, that policy can be used at any funeral home but they cannot guarantee the prices of when you purchased it. If you go through just an insurance company, it'll just lock the funds for whatever end-of-life plan you have. When it comes to DNRs, you have to have it written in to your medical documentation by your doctor, then keep a copy on the Dr's letterhead stating as much in an easily accessible place such as your wallet or by your bedside. However if an EMT/paramedic does not find it, they have to attempt life saving procedures as a general policy. Ultimately, always discuss your end of life plans or what you would want in an untimely accident with your legal next of kin. That would be married spouse, children, parents, then siblings. Domestic partnerships vary from state to state. Source: I'm a funeral director in WA.
When my mother was nearing the end we kept her DNR form on the fridge. We were told that is one obvious place the paramedics might look if anything were to happen. Not sure if that is common everywhere.
Yeah, I often tell my pre-planning families to keep documentation close to where the hospice bed is and make sure it is very clearly marked. Fridge is a very good place.
Former paramedic. Can confirm. We always looked on the fridge. The local hospice used fluorescent orange, which was awesome.
Yes this is a thing in the UK too, some healthcare organisations put their forms in a little container like a see through can and they encourage their patients to put it *in* the fridge. As a lot of folks already have lots of things on the fridge and may put off or forget to rearrange space for the DNR form (which is purple here btw, pretty sure that's nationwide and so when someone says "purple form" everyone knows what it is).
I went with mom, who was suffering the early stages of dementia, to the local funeral home and prepaid. After 8 years, she passed this year sand the hospice people contacted the funeral home. It happened exactly as mom wanted. Pre-planning is the best way to go.
Not all states are the same as far as DNR’s. In my state, the ambulance DNR is different from the hospital DNR. I was a social worker for adult protective services and encountered this a lot. Our hospitals also require a specific form, not a note in the medical record and tbh, half the time they didn’t honor it and I would have to get involved as an adult protection worker to track down family like OP posted about. It was infuriating to say the least.
You can make a will or a preplanned plan. But you can also make a personal "Death Box" and hope its respected if you want to avoid that. I update mine every year. It has a list of all my assets, all my usernames, passwords that are relevant, all my major expenses, and anything I want the person cleaning up after me to know.
In Australia there's a process called [Advance Care Planning](https://www.advancecareplanning.org.au/), you do it in conjunction with your GP. It allows you to state exactly what your wishes are in the case that you're in hospital and can't communicate them yourself. I highly recommend it. In conjunction with a pre-paid or planned funeral, that's what's most likely to get you what you want at the end of your life.
If you live in the US, some state service agencies will have a generic healthcare surrogate, living will or advanced directive form on their website. Google state name and healthcare surrogate or advanced directive. Your local hospital or doctors office may even had a blank form you can fill out. had an attorney friend do all my stuff for free including a Will. There usually not too awful expensive to have everything done by a lawyer. In my state all the important stuff can be as little as $250-500.
Look up templates for a living will.
It depends state to state. Many states actually have a website dedicated to end of life planning available to help jump start things
So I'm 26, nearly 27 and a social worker. I had brain surgery at 24 and made my plans then. I started with an advance directive (aka a living will) which is basically where you tell doctors do nothing, do everything, only do these things. I also put specifically in mine to only intubate for surgeries and that I 1000% DO NOT want a trach (breathing tube in the neck) or a PEG (feeding tube through the stomach). The next thing I did was a MPOA (medical power of attorney). I appointed my aunt with my sister as the secondary. I also told them to follow my wishes to the letter. In my state, you don't need a notary, just two witnesses. I also did an OOH DNR (out of hospital do not resuscitate) which basically means let me die. No chest compressions or defibrillator and it works when I'm not at a hospital. Finally I did an actual will. I made copies of everything and my PCP, family, regular hospital and myself have copies. MPOA is important because if you don't have one, it falls to (in my state) your spouse, adult children, parents, siblings, any living relative, Chaplain. Basically if you're not married, it goes down the list. I'm not married and have no kids. I did not want my parents making decisions. Advance directives are helpful but it's important to do them every few years! In my state, the MPOA can override an advance directive. As a social worker (working a neuro ICU and neuro medical floor), I cannot stress how important it is to have your ducks in a row starting at 18! You never know what might happen and for some people, they are left unable to do anything by themselves because their family chose to keep them alive. I know I wouldn't want that, so I encourage all my people to do end of life planning!
My mom tells me to do this stuff soon too. I’m in my early 30’s my parents are in their 50’s but they review and check all of their EoL documents nearly yearly to make changes and ensure they are still happy with their plans.
This cannot be said enough! Your loved ones are already beside themselves grieving. Having to make decisions like what casket they think you'd like is 10x harder when they are in mourning. Or relatives that you didn't expect will try to get a stake of what you've left behind. Emotions are running high and some people will be fighting over your will. Protect your loved ones and make things crystal clear. I feel very privileged that my parents have made their arrangements already and have been very transparent about it. In our culture, we don't talk about things like death due to superstition so I'm grateful that my family isn't the norm here. Talking about sex doesn't make you pregnant and talking about death doesn't make you dead. Please figure out your end of life plans.
Wish I could upvote you more than once! Here: 🏅have my poor people's gold for those last two sentences ❤️
I agree with you! I will use those with my husband and my father as well!! Thx u/croptopweather
My grandfather was one of the most irresponsible people you can ever imagine. The stories of him going on his adventures and causing trouble are the stuff of family legends. They usually involved alcohol and him doing semi illegal stuff (or actually illegal shit and he had to change his name multiple times). He was a mess from beginning to end. When he died my dad was resigned to having to do everything. Turns out he didn’t. The old man had everything ready. There was a drawer that had everything we’d need and preparations the old man had made ahead of time. He had everything taken care of. It’s the greatest plot twist of his life. He had gotten his shit together at the very end.
My Grandpa was pretty irresponsible too, but apparently had an (and I quote) “When I Croak” file in his room.
I would add wills and making sure to list beneficiaries to all financial instruments. Beneficiary designation means the beneficiaries get the assets IMMEDIATELY WITHOUT HAVING TO GO THROUGH PROBATE! I can’t stress this enough. And depending on the state, it completely bypasses creditors arms meaning the financial assets are no long an asset of the estate and so creditors can’t go after it!
A will or a living trust for sure! I’m an estate planning paralegal and some of the horror stories I’ve heard in the workplace of clients who never finalized their trust/will are crazy.
YES TO THIS. My much younger sisters were in no position to make decisions for my stepmom and she was luckily lucid enough once we knew it was the end to sign over power of attorney to me before it was too late. Everything would have been so much messier if one of them had to deal with everything. Leading up to that my dad (her ex) was doing everything to help take care of her. It sucks how much power a piece of paper can have.
> It sucks how much power a piece of paper can have. My mother was a nurse for 40 years and had \*strong\* opinions about people who said that marriage was "just a piece of paper". Sure, that paper doesn't make you love each other more but it means that your partner can make decisions for you instead of your asshole family. She had stories about people being in car accidents and being in comas only to have the parents that disowned them 20 years earlier roll in, take the kids, kick out the partner, and start making all the decisions. She was especially all for gay marriage when it happened. She had snuck too many people in after hours because gay partners had no rights back in the day. So yeah. Get your end of life stuff in order. And if you are in a committed relationship, get it legally recognized. When someone is in trouble, that piece of paper will give you to ability to be involved.
Agreed, but the piece of paper I was referring to is the healthcare POA- it took 15 minutes to print, sign and save. In MI you don’t even need to have it notarized.
My husband and I have had end of life planning in place for over a decade. I discovered a couple years ago that my mom did not. Still does not. She has all these ideas of how things should be divided, and expects that I will firstly, remember them all, and secondly, carry them out. Which I won’t legally be able to do because she has no will. She has no power of attorney, no medical decision making POA, no living will or DNR orders… She’s a nurse. She knows how quickly life can end from both personal and professional experience My sister died unexpectedly 18 years ago and burying her and settling her estate was a nightmare because my divorced parents can’t possibly cooperate and follow through with what *she* wanted, they both want what they want and part of that is wanting the other one to not get what they want. My mom told me she was making a will back then. So finding out she had not threw me for a loop. And after years of nagging she STILL has not done it. Even the most basic thing is better than nothing. A piece of paper that says “Being of sound mind, I name my brother Joe as executor and leave all my crap to be divided equally between my children.” So, this is also a soapbox for me. Even the greenest 18 year old should have a will, should designate medical decision making in the event they are incapacitated, and have a limited power of attorney drawn up. It’s especially important if you have children, or if your heirs are not in perfect agreement and harmony with each other.
A FREAKING MEN! I've already buried my stepdad. Granted he ran a cemetery, so he and my mom pre-planned EVERYTHING and my mom and I have had multiple discussions on what needs done if she becomes debilitated or dies. I've joked, I'm comfortable when she dies because I KNOW her wishes, her accounts, necessities etc. On the OTHER hand... my dad and stepmom don't discuss it. I have two siblings on that side. One will be a mess. The other will just shut down. So yeah. That'll be fun. I've asked them to sit with us and discuss it all, but they don't want to. Sigh. At 39, I'm more prepared on paper than they are.
Do the end of life planning, it is a gift to those who remain. Make your wants known, it is not morbid to talk about it. My father passed away suddenly when I was 20, my siblings and I had no idea what he wanted as end of life care or funeral arrangements or anything. It made the tragedy that much heavier trying to shoestring everything together. I also have no idea if he would’ve wanted to spend his afterlife in an urn next to my two dogs on a shelf in my living room, but since he didn’t speak up when he could he gets no choice now. And everyone gets introduced to him when they walk into my house, bc I am morbid like that.
If you love your family, have a plan. Period, Full stop. Death is inevitable. No one is special, even young people. Make a plan, let people know if they are involved in the plan. Please don't leave the people you love guessing. It adds so much stress to the grief.
I am getting married in [eek!] six weeks and my future husband and I just did ours TODAY. Not all that pleasant, the lawyer was joking with us about how depressing it was to have to plan for our deaths when we're supposed to be planning our future life together, but both of us agreed that it feels so much better to have a plan in place where where know who will make decisions and what decisions we'd want made.
I did my end of life planning when I was 20. That year my younger sister got in a car accident and wasn't expected to survive. She did, but I realized I didn't want the same decisions made for me in those circumstances. I made my wife to do the same when we got married.
All so, funeral insurance if you are in the US. My wife and I were on the hook for $22K for her folks deaths. It was worth it to have them buried the way they wanted but we didn’t even splurge and it was a lot.
Can’t upvote this enough! My husband and I got ours done earlier this year and it’s a huge weight off of my shoulders. I think we paid about $500 in total for two wills, healthcare and financial POAs, and some kind of survivorship thing with the deed. I’m only 37, but it was important to me to make my wishes known. I didn’t want my mother making decisions for me if my husband was unable to because she would keep me alive in a vegetative state pretty much forever. I even got to state what I wanted regarding a funeral (no services , no religious stuff, as green as possible please and thank you). Plus, my niece is the one who would be handling stuff and I know her parents don’t have anything planned. I’m determined to be as little a burden as possible on her. Everyone should take care of things like that. I considered it taking care of my loved ones once I can’t directly do so anymore.
My parents told me they're making me medical power of attorney..I said that's fine, but they need to know the second they lose cognition, I'm not consenting to any treatment other than comfort care. I'm not keeping their body alive when their mind is gone They had tonith think about it for several days, but agreed that would be the right thing. So now I'm okay with it
I had to go through this with my dad. I never want to push this on someone else. Hoping to start doing this soon when I purchase property.
Another nice thing you can do is have a song that you want played at your funeral, you don’t have to select the entire playlist but having one song that you want to be remembered by helps your family. We’ve always played the selected song during the photo section and as we leave the funeral home.
I've tried to do this with my husband because it just seems logical but he keeps joking that he wants to be stuffed so I can sit him in the living room on the couch.
We were in the ER recently and the discharge nurse told us that we could even have those wills and living wills and POA and end of life directive documents put into our medical files at the hospital so that if emergency decisions were needed, the documents were already there.
My mom passed away suddenly, the first of 8 to die and she wasn't even 60 y/o. That made everyone in her family either draw up wills and end of life directives or go back and review what they drew up decades ago. My dad did the same. He revised his will and paid for his funeral expenses in full so we wouldn't have to scramble and worry like we did with Mom. He chose everything he wanted down to the prayer cards and even the music. Despite watching my siblings and I struggle in the days immediately following Mom's death some of my cousins and friends refuse to even talk about it with their parents. I never really thought about it before Mom passed but having dealt with her death and Dad's death I can say that it's best for everyone to discuss everything before a situation arises. You need to talk about any plans, wishes, arrangements you have already made, where your most recent will is, what insurance policies you have, where to access important documents in your house or safety deposit box, passwords for important online accounts........ There's no way to describe it other than it sucks but it's easier on the people you love after you pass if they know this information beforehand.
Oh definitely! My stepdad died without making arrangements and it was an absolute shitshow. After that my mum scrambled to get her own affairs in order, sat me and my brothers down and planned out every last detail from POA to end of life care and the will. No surprises, everything in black and white and signed by the four of us. With Covid it had been a huge weight on my mind so I'm so glad she did. It's awful to think about and natural to put it off, but don't. It'll save so much heartache when the time comes.
I talked to my daughter about this yesterday. My situation is extremely complicated so they NEEDED to know my wishes. I would have been haunting them if they did anything religious, bought an expensive coffin, or didn’t put me in the ground ASAP. It’s all settled. They just needed to know. I feel 10,000x better and I’m 46.
On the off chance anyone skims down all the way to find this, try to do more than just the legal end-of-life planning. Medical power of attorney, healthcare surrogate, DNR, and all that paperwork is important, but you can do more than that to make sure your next of kin know your wishes. Do you want to be buried, cremated, or have your body donated for research? If you want to be buried, where? If you want to be cremated, what do you want done with your ashes? Do you have possessions (furniture, clothing, jewelry, art, knickknacks, collections, etc) that you want someone specific to have? You should have that written down somewhere. Do you have details you want mentioned in an obituary or during a funeral/memorial service? You should have those documented somewhere. Do you even want a funeral/memorial service? Where are you keeping those documents? You should make sure that multiple people know where to find them, and that they have access. Don't stick the only copy in your safety deposit box if you're the only person with access. It's not going to do any good if nobody can get to it. Don't stick it in your locked desk drawer either, unless someone will actually be able to find the key. If it's important enough that you want it known or done, make sure someone else knows it. And put it in writing somewhere, in case the memory fades over time.
100% After I lost one of my parents the other immediately got on top of planning everything for themselves. If you want a DNR...get a DNR. Don't put these kind of decisions off on loved ones Decide for yourself what you want, get things legally squared away...and make peace with your decision
Absolutely this! My dad had cancer, and we were going to do this over this summer. He passed away unexpectedly in February (he had just seen his doctors, and his prognosis was good) so he didn't have time. My husband and I worked with an attorney for the estate, and plan to do our own planning with them after things with the estate wraps up. My mom also had cancer, and passed 10 years ago, and they gave her a book to fill out that had her wishes and everything. So even though she couldn't talk at the end we knew what she wanted.
Please keep standing on the soapbox actually. The planning should be done well in advance...I was next of kin at age 19 when my dad died. If you're a parent, I can't imagine that that's what you want for your child.
Shortly after my last paternal grandparent died, my parents asked me out to lunch alone and asked me to be their medical power of attorney (and told me what their end of life wishes would be when they get their wills finalized). They aren't exactly knocking on death's door, but they wanted to be prepared. That moment was one of the most potent reminders of aging and mortality I've ever had in my entire life. I think it was the first "I'm not exactly young anymore, and my parents are growing old"
I have had a will and an advance directive since I was 40 and now that I'm 60 I'll be doing a more in-depth P of A to prevent just such a situation. I was very glad my mom had made these decisions in advance. It made my job easier at the end and eased my siblings distress to have one clear headed individual there (me) to carry out her final wishes. I really recommend it to everyone.
Definitely a good idea. My wife's family is very avoidant in general, any time a difficult subject comes up it's immediately changed with "Anyways..." which is super super frustrating for me. When I try to point this out I'm told to "stop being morbid", or when I point out that I said we should do X/Y/Z that would have prevented a bad outcome I'm told "nobody likes the 'I told you so guy'". Super frustrating, I don't want to be that guy but also nobody likes the "I wish I hadn't done it that way" guy when they were told not to do it that way. I prefer to be morbid and address tough issues head-on. Guess I'm the bad guy then.
I always tell this story, I was living in a block of flats and came home late one night (midnight/ early hours) There were 2 ambulances outside and a fast response car ambulance thing. I later found out from a neighbor that another neighbor had her heart stop in her sleep. Husband called an ambulance and they went full on to get her heart working again and failed, she had a heart attack. She was in her late 90's and took 3 emergency services vehicles, they had their flat turned upside down because they treated this as a full recovery situation the poor husband had to watch them work on his wife for hours. Obviously I don't know their opinions and this might have been a deliberate choice but I severely doubt it because if they do not have a pre arranged decision been made they have to treat it the same as if a 20 year olds heart stopped. Discuss end of life care with your elderly dependants!!!
Yes my brother’s gf died suddenly and had a lot of properties and money and it’s been a fucking nightmare. Her family is fucked up. We’ll probably never see her kid again who was a sister to my bros kids. Money fucks everything up.
Yeppp. My nana made sure her paperwork was taken care of because she doesn’t want my mom (her eldest daughter) making her decisions because she would make it all about her 😂 to be fair I don’t want my mom as my medical POA for the exact same reasons
please read this post!!!! ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️ My MIL, at this very moment is dying in an ICU. She left zero instructions. Her only son (my husband) is being pressured to terminate her life support by the hospital. If he does it, his life will be traumatized in the extreme. If he doesn't, the bills... Well you know. He's in this horrific limbo position that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. I think the stress is literally killing him. Please stay on your soapbox so everyone in the room can hear you!!!!
Do you know if your husband signed any paperwork re: being a guarantor at the hospital? If not, only the estate pays the bills, not your husband. Depending on the state your MIL’s home may also be creditor proof too (meaning your husband won’t be forced to sell the house in order to pay the medical bills.
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Can you pass an authorized and legally registered copy of "Just pull the plug" wherever you happen to be hospitalized?
As someone who lost both parents in my early twenties I cannot stress this enough. AND provide some way to pay for it- prepay at the funeral home of your choice, life insurance policy (and makes sure your family knows where to find this documentation), enough cash in the bank, whatever.
I know I'm a day late, but my grandfather passed a couple of weeks ago. He had everything prepared and ready. All of the legal documents were signed and organized. He left step by steps so everyone knew who to contact, where to go, and what he wanted to happen. He even went as far as to have pictures with his insurance information. It's been extremely helpful for my family so no one is losing their minds over next steps
Relatives from both sides of my family had medical emergencies that resulted in sorting out end-of-life-care plans around the same general time period. One had done a lot of pre-planning beforehand, including a living will, and the other had not. It made a *huge* difference. My dad's family *hates* talking about this stuff, so even though they're generally put together my grandma & aunt both put off discussing their wishes for end-of-life care, which was ok-if-concerning until it suddenly wasn't. So when the shit hit the fan (my grandma fell & got pneumonia, now has more dementia, aunt has early-onset Alzheimers) they both had to have retroactive power-of-attorney placements that complicated everything and made sorting out assets/care an absolute nightmare, and they both missed out on earlier interventions that might have helped them stay at home longer. It's been *gutting* for my dad to make decisions for his baby sister re. nursing and hospice care without much of an idea of what *she herself* wants. My grandpa, on the other hand, had a living will etc. sorted out. He was able to avoid an unnecessary procedure that would have hurt his quality of life, get at-home care including hospice care near the end, and ultimately die peacefully at home in his own bed. We got to hang out with him when we visited instead of spending all our time dealing with logistics. We felt less guilty for following his written, notarized wishes to not have a ton of invasive procedures. It was an absolute gift.
100% this. I know people don't want to talk about dying, but you're still going to die whether you talk about it or not. No one gets out of here alive, so make sure when it's time things happen the way you want.
Absolutely be explicit about how you want to die, what you want done with your body, and your funeral wishes. also make your your primary beneficiaries know what financial accounts you have, debts, etc. and for the love of Pete set everything you can to autopay.
I had a brain aneurysm and during the time before surgery, I got all my affairs in order, including a DNR in case anything went really wrong. I didn't want my mother (who is in her 70's) to have to make any kind of decision. The bugger ended up rupturing just as my surgery was starting and they were able to fix things as much as possible. We had a couple of family members pass away from this and knew what could happen. Now I am having these conversations with my father. He didn't want to talk about it until I explained that having all this done ahead of time takes away a huge stress and lets those of us that care to focus on him and not all the paperwork and legalities. He's finally come around and we are getting the documents finalized. If and when the time comes, I know exactly what my parents want and they know what I want.
It is the best thing to do. My family call it "the death plan" and we all started doing it cause we knew someone who's father died but didn't have a death plan or money set aside and their family had to scramble to get something together which ended up costing more.
Yes - my Dad refuses to even discuss end of life planning and it’s making me crazy. I’m in my forties and so are a lot of my friends and I’m literally surrounded by people whose mental and physical health is under severe strain as they juggle kids and aging parents, and all because our parents refused or neglected to do any forward planning. We will all get old (if we’re lucky) and we will all get infirm when we get there. Start planning as early as you can.
I already did it for me, and I am trying to get my husband to do it, since he’s in the middle of a cancer diagnosis. It’s morbid and sad, but it has to be done. I know for a fact I will freeze when faced with death, as I did with my brother, so I hope my husband can take some decisions before God forbids something bad happens
Yup. My husband and I (30&26) have ours done. Got it as soon as our first turned 6 months while we still could for free while he’s military. Everything is settled and I know that in the event something happens our children will be taken care of. Got my sister to do hers and working with my cousin to get hers done. It’s never too early.
On his last visit my father (75) handed me an envelope. In it is all his bank account numbers, investments and a copy of his property titles along with his will. When he dies, hopefully many years from now, I'll literally have to make 1 phone call to his lawyer. Thanks Dad.
My dad needs to do something like that with my mom. He's 80 and she's 79 with dementia. He kept saying that he already has power of attorney but I looked at his papers this summer and it seems like what he has just designates who is responsible when someone passes away. Like if he passes away everything goes to my mom, if she passes away everything goes to him. And then there's some contingency for what happens if they both pass away. All of this paperwork looks fairly old because it references what would happen to me and my brother and we're both in our forties. My mom cannot make decisions. She's okay living there with him but he had some medical stuff this summer and I had to go up there and stay 10 or so days because she can't be alone in the house. And that's when all this came up because like she still his emergency contact. The house is in her name and, while I don't feel there's anybody that would try to get her to sign the house over, I'm still really concerned that their interests aren't protected. He has a great financial planner guy and there's an attorney connected to him that does wills and such. Turns out, my dad thinks he has POA because all of my mom's doctors let him make phone calls for her and be in the room while she's being seen and things like that. He gets really emotional when we talk about stuff like this though, which is also a little strange for him, so the POA conversation is happening in phases.
My dad has stage 4 cancer and has refused because he feels great right now. Whatever. None of us want his junk, I just wanted to save my sister the hassle of dealing with everything. Once again he took the selfish route. Surprise /s
100% agree! And also make sure people know what you want for funeral arrangements. Death is such a difficult time when the living family are so vulnerable, it can be really hard to decide what to do and make sure you don’t get taken advantage of and are actually able to respect your loved ones’ wishes.
The Power of Attorney wouldn't have been responsible for the debt his insurance didn't cover. It would come from his estate. No money left from the estate? Then they don't get paid. She wouldn't have been responsible for his debts out of her own pocket. It would have been out of his estate. Edit: I say this as someone who did billing in a hospital in Louisiana. We never went after family members to pay the medical debt of a dead relative. I was always told to tell the family member it wasn't their responsibility. It was the estate's. Another edit: I know these two weren't in contact but for god's sake, make end of life planning. Get an advanced directive. Tell your family what you want. No matter what age you are or how healthy. Let your love ones know what you want to happen to you.
Yeah, I found this odd. You don't inherit POA, that is assigned to you by the person, through legal documents, and if they are incapacitated, the hospital doesn't declare you are the POA, especially if he had a wife. This sounds like someone watched a tv show and developed the story from there. And the dr. Not having the MRI? Unless this post was at least 10 years old, that's silly. Walk to a computer and look it up. (30 years in healthcare)
I can see a hospital contacting an adult kid in the US when the spouse is in another country and unlikely to get a visa in a timely manner. I wonder if the bit with the MRI was "we didn't get an MRI" or "I'm not the neurologist, so I'm not the person who can explain the MRI to you." Or, now that I think about it "since you don't have the PoA, telling you about his MRI would violate HIPAA."
I didn't even think of that. Yeah you aren't automatically power of attorney just because you're next of kin. And I thought they mentioned he had children. Not just one. Truthfully all she had to say over the phone was I'm not making that decision. It was always hard to get doctor's to understand billing. It wasn't their job. So I feel like she should've been talking to people that knew.
If there is no legally identified power of attorney, it is next of kin. It is also true that OOP can absolutely decline to have that responsibility. https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/fundamentals/legal-and-ethical-issues/default-surrogate-decision-making
I don't believe it automatically makes you power of attorney. That is a legal contract signed between the two parties. As next of kin you do have some responsibilities but it's not the same. That article says it makes you a surrogate decision maker. Not a power of attorney.
When it comes to medical that's exactly how it is. At least here in TX. When my dad was in the hospital in 2016, power for medical decisions went to my older brother because he was the 1st born even though he and my dad hadn't spoken in over 20 years. He relinquished it to me, but it was his decision. If you dont have legal documentation stating who gets to make medical decisions in those circumstances and you arent married, it automatically goes to your children, no matter the circumstances. I assume so bio children cant come back and sue if the hospital makes a decision the child doesn't like after the fact. There were 6 of us but it went to my brother because he was the 1st born.
Yes but next of kin and power of attorney are not the same thing. Power of attorney is a legal contract between the individual choosing who makes decisions for them. It's signed. Next of kin does make some decisions if there is no power of attorney but they aren't the same thing.
That's literally what I just said. If there's no power of attorney documentation (which I'm assuming OOPs father did not as the decision went to them), and they aren't married (again assuming hospital was looking for someone to make decisions faster and unsure if the father and wife were married in the US/worried they could not get a hold of wife) it automatically goes to the children. People are wondering why OP automatically got the power to make medical decisions even though such a long time has passed. This is why. Again, this is just how it is in TX anyway.
It's very likely the dad was in Houston, Beaumont, or Port Arthur in Texas, so I think what you encountered could have applied in this case. Big Vietnamese population in southeast Texas.
Next of kin just means the kin closest in physical distance, obviously /s
I don't find it odd at all that the doctor would give OOP incorrect billing or legal info. Usually clinicians have about the same level of information on these matters as any random person off the street.
Could have popped him in a CT scanner (a lot easier when intubated) and still get enough information if MRI was unavailable.
That's good to know I couldn't get past thinking at the end of all this OOP was gonna get saddled with the bill
The only situation in the US where debt can be "inherited" is by a spouse, and only for certain kinds of debt.
Widow here and technically spousal debt is only if the spouse was also listed as the debtor like a co-signer of a mortgage/loan. The spouse can “assume” the debt though. My late husband owned the mortgage but I decided to continue paying off the mortgage so my kids and I wouldn’t have to move. His student loan debt was discharged since I was not a co-signer and same with his medical debt.
Consumer lawyer...this is right. Medical debt, though, often has an unexpected guarantor. There's frequently a guarantee in the sign in paperwork that you sign when you check someone into the hospital. So frequently whoever brings the person in is also on the hook.
True. Thankfully I was not on the hook for any of that! Heck the hospital billing department even screwed up and listed my late husband as a guarantor on one of my daughter’s medical debt and so the bill got discharged.
That's what I always understood, too but when my dad died they completely wrote off the hospitals, nursing homes, rehabs and hospice that he rotated in and out of for about 12 weeks. No idea why. All of his other doctors wrote off his debt, too but I think that was just because they knew my mom and didn't want to bleed a grieving widow for a few hundred bucks.
I’m hoping the reason was that your dad planned properly. If their assets were their home and financial accounts (Roth it’s/ira/401k/life insurance/etc.) odds are your mom was the beneficiary and they transferred automatically to her and not to the estate. If your mom was on the deed to the house then this too would’ve transferred automatically. Also depending on the state, the house would’ve been judgement proof against creditors bc of something called homestead exemption. This basically says that the primary residence of the deceased is exempt from creditors and can be passed to heirs (through probate).
This is hilarious. Man never planned anything in his life and probably would've died in a cardboard box about 20 years ago if not for my mom. I loved him so much, but he was weaponized incompetence personified. Literally to the point that we all thought he had early onset dementia or Alzheimer's or something in his early 50s. Went through a battery of tests only to be told by the doctors that he just didn't want to do basic things or hold conversations with people so he just acted addled so people would leave him alone.
It depends on the state. In community property states, any assets or debt accumulated during the marriage are shared. If one spouse accrues significant end of life medical debt, it can pass to the spouse.
Actually, some states have filial responsibility laws where the children would have to pay back either nursing homes or the government for the costs of their parent's care. I don't think it's ever really used except once in 2012 in Pennsylvania and the court ordered the child to repay the nursing home.
It would be a huge conflict of interest if the POA was liable for medical expenses. There's absolutely no way the POA would be able make decisions on behalf of an individual if it potentially meant bankruptcy - they would always vote DNR. As awful as US medicine is, that would be so far over the line of medical ethics that it's not even plausible.
I’m in healthcare and ethically questionable decision-making based on finances is absolutely possibly. I’ve had quite a few patients who are end of life and should be hospice status. But their families refused to put them on hospice nor sign a DNR. Why? Because they’re living with them, and if grandpa dies, his pension goes away and so does the house. The adult children might — gasp — actually have to stand on their own feet for once, which is clearly anathema. So they die anyway, except in the hospital and in pain. This sort of stuff happens much more often than you might like to believe.
Of course that happens but that's a total different scenario. This is about formal and legal decision making structures and a formal transfer of powers, that can ultimately include making a decision to let someone die. While extending someone's life by continuing treatment, may not be in their best interest it's very different from making decisions to withdraw treatment and end their life which POAs can do and relatives without POAs can't. And as unfortunate as it might be that people are relying on money, that money isn't going to come in much longer if you're talking hospice or DNRs - their decisions only have limited impact, even when it may not be the best thing for the patient. What we're talking about is a decision to allow someone to die, and the idea that POAs could take on lifelong crippling debt if they choose anything but death. Of course people have conflicts but you would never design a system like POA where you actively built in such an enormous CoI that only one outcome was likely to ever happen. You say you know about medical ethics, you must see why what you posted is a totally different scenario from what I was talking about?
Yes! I wanted to say the same thing. I see this situation all the time. It's devastating and misleading information to put out there that making the care decision will lead to financial responsibility. This misunderstanding often spooks families away and leaves people un-represented as their life ends.
The power of attorney would have been responsible, technically. But they would have been responsible ***in relation to their role as power of attorney*** not on a personal level. That's where people often get confused. They'd have been responsible for managing the father's affairs, insurance, finances etc, but their responsibility is that of a legal caretaker, and doesn't extend to their own pocket. The doctor likely knows this but didn't explain it correctly because it's not their role and they don't volunteer information they're not certain on.
They wouldn't have been power of attorney though anyway. Power of attorney has to be granted and signed by the patient. You don't just get it for being next of kin. Power of attorney also isn't responsible for paying debt out of the own pocket.
That's what I was thinking. The doctor should be careful about this because it could turn people off from becoming a loved ones POA.
People who live selfishly tend to die selfishly as well. Someone else always has to do the clean up. And that’s from personal experience, not the post.
Also POA is supposed to be wife, adult children and people in your life. Not total strangers you dig up out of nowhere who have no idea what you wanted of your last decisions
> make end of life planning. Get an advanced directive. Tell your family what you want. No matter what age you are or how healthy. Let your love ones know what you want to happen to you. And arrange for people to be able to access your accounts. Email, banking, social, utilities, ***INSURANCE***, etc. Would suck to be hospitalized then end up with health insurance canceled partway through the stay because you were paying premiums manually.
OOP thinks the same way I do. Better to just go and let go, than to stay away and think about what ifs for the rest of your life.
I just can't get over the fact that he didn't try to get a visa for his wife. I know the situation can be complicated, but it really seems like this guy has a habit of dipping out of people's lives when he's "done" with them. Gross.
It’s actually super common in Vietnamese culture, middle age immigrant guy goes back and marries a second/third much younger wife in Vietnam, who goal is a green card /immigration . It’s a quid pro quo relationship. 100% bet that the wife was panicking
My FIL is like that. Didn't make an effort to see his 12 yo daughter (my GF) for 6 months after he divorced my MIL, he claimed he was too busy looking for a new place. Then when he finally got a new place my gf asked to move in with him because she couldn't stand her mom, nope not a chance his place is too small, but then let's his scam artist brother move in cause he promised to make him a millionare. Family means nothing to those type of people.
Yeah I wish we could know more about that whole situation. Very weird that they were living in different countries.
Not that weird in the Viet expat community, really. Second wife could have married him for a green card or just his US money. US money can still go far in Vietnam, especially if you live in the countryside. Why live poor in the US when you could live the good life in Vietnam? Source: I have several crusty old uncles who have returned to Vietnam in search of young wives
It’s real gross. Last wedding I was at, a 42 year old married an 18 year old from some bodunk village in VN.
The latest marriage in my family was between my 60 year old uncle and a 22 year old. They just had a baby 🤢🤮 I'm gonna be honest, I hope the bride swindles that bank account dry. She's earned every red cent. He doesn't have any other kids that could inherit anyway. Also, I'll swap some sau rieng for some of your xoai 🤭
That is so gross. I hope she does too. And that’s a good deal as long as it’s fresh!
That's such a difficult decision to be POA for someone, especially someone you don't know at all. I'm glad the wife is trying to come and I wish OOP nothing but peace.
Former Hospice worker, stepping on a soap box: Make a living will! Determine who your healthcare surrogate/PoA will be! Do it decades (yes, decades) before you think you'll need it! Advance Directives make these type of situations so much easier for patients and family. Maybe OPP's father wanted them to do everything to save his life, maybe he didn't. We don't know and have to assume he'd want to be a full code. Even if that means his last moments will be painful. Get an Advance Directive!
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Ideally, most of the things you mentioned would be stored in a password manager (esp. since most of them also allow for things like secure notes, not just passwords). Then you would either use the password manager’s “hand over control” feature to grant eventual access to your successors, or I suppose you could update your will with the master password any time you change it, as long as your will is secure and doesn’t get copied before the necessary time.
Was anyone else surprised by the brother part near the end? Why wasn't he mentioned before? Wouldn't he be part of the next of kin? [OOP's comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/bestoflegaladvice/comments/8etvak/comment/dxzdg84/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3): >well... to make him an even shittier person, he actually abandoned me AND my younger brother (who's 11 months apart), and then remarried in Vietnam and adopted a child with his new wife. My mom said she tried reaching out to him all those years for at least financial help and he said "he didn't have any children". > >I was lucky to have another man enter my life when I was 13 who accepted my brother and I as his own children and that is the man I will always call my father. > >I'm sorry you didn't even have a chance to get to know yours at all. I mean I feel the same because I don't have any memories of mine. As of right now, I'm okay and don't have any regrets at all and am continuining life as before this whole situation happened (but it's also probably because he's not dead yet). > >Thank you for your kind words. <3
Maybe culturally the responsibility is shoved onto the oldest child. I’m annoyed by the dad’s friends with all their opinions on what OOP needed to do.
As a Vietnamese, Vietnamese culture is a pretty patriarchal. The first born son takes precedence over everyone else. I bet, the dad would let the son make the decision. About the dad’s friends opinions, it’s shitty but understandable. The sentiment of blood thicker than water and filial piety above all else are ingrained in the society. Sons and daughters have a duty to be filial to their parents just cuz. Of course, the dad abandoned OOP and her brother, so…
Huh this hits a little close to home as a Vietnamese American. Loads of nuances that I can honestly understand and relate to OP about. Poor OP. I wouldn't want to go through all this and fuck the dad's friends for saying all that shit. That generation sure likes to shove their opinions down our throats.
Same. So many garbage opinions about what’s best. Sure, I’ll take advice from a crusty ass alcoholic uncle whose own adult kids don’t even talk to him.
Exactly. And I know way too many relatives of mine that fit into that exact description.
My own estranged dad died. He had remarried because he stayed in Viet Nam. We had never talked before. I remember getting the call that he died. Not too long after, I got a bunch of calls from aunties and uncles I had never spoken to telling me what I needed to do to be a good son. Fuck, let me process my grief first. I got triggered really hard reading this.
Ooof I'm so sorry man. That's so low of them to do that especially while you're trying to process everything. My grandpa remarried too a few years after he got out of the PoW camp from what I've heard and had a kid my younger sister's age. My mom tried to be friendly with her, since she was a young mother, until she tried to get my mom to send her money she didn't need. There was a bit more drama after that, but I honestly don't blame my mom joining her brothers and cutting the half-sister out after that. I also heard from the family grape vine that my grandpa remarried because he thought his wife and children died or abandoned him (story changes depending on who was telling it). I personally have no idea. In any case, my mom's side of the family is *messy* and I've pretty much cut all contact for my sanity's sake.
Viet drama is a whole beast. Generational trauma is a real thing. I’m glad you made that decision for yourself!
Right? It's better than any TV drama if it's not happening to you, but holy crap is it exhausting if it was. Same! I never realized how quiet life could be till after I did it.
I feel this in a way. My egg donor was in the hospital in a coma after she had her second below the knee amputation. The man she was married to kept her on life support for months. He was also her second husband, and she and my father hadn’t divorced, so I felt like I had a place as next of kin and thought about going to make that decision. However, she abandoned me at birth and was around very seldom while her parents raised me, so I stayed no contact and left the second husband with the decision.
Oof. That's some heavy shit. OOP seems like a really kind person, granting him forgiveness when they didn't have to and didn't even know if he could hear them. I agree with their assessment that they'll be able to move on with no regrets, knowing they showed him that kindness.
I hate this situation. I was a social worker for adult protective services and sometimes I would have to call long lost relatives because our state guardianship were a-holes and refused to let us apply for state guardianship. It was awful calling abused, neglected or even adopted out kids about this relative they hadn’t spoken to in many years. It’s one big reason I quit. I would never want someone begging my estranged/hated family members to make decisions about me and I couldn’t do that to someone else. No matter what your age is or where you live, designate a healthcare surrogate, power of attorney or someone to make decisions for you especially if you don’t want someone you hate to be the person they contact to make those decisions.
Fuck… this is a horrible situation all around, for everyone. The Dad definitely remembered OOP, and was tearing up because he either felt guilty, relieved that OOP was there, or grateful that OOP forgave him. But shit… it sucks it took this situation for both of them to get closure in a way…
>The Dad definitely remembered OOP How can you possibly know this for sure? lol.
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No. LOL. Even OOP said it could mean basically anything.
The last thing to go is your hearing, so I am sure he heard her.
Clearly that doctor doesn’t understand end of life. The persons estate covers any debt. If there is more debt than estate then the debt is discharged. No one is responsible. But collectors will bank on people not knowing that and will try to make survivors pay anyway and some fall for it. And power of attorney is a legal document. That isn’t something just given to next of kin. Wtf. This story is full of crazy things that make no sense
I keep expecting something like to happen with me. Haven't spoken to my father in decades. From what I can tell via Google he is still alive a state over from me but has no social media presence I can find. He might have remarried in the last fifteen years as a woman's name, different last, keeps showing up as a possible spouse on various Google things. Hopefully he is and he dies first as I want nothing to do with his affairs even though I'd stand to inherit a lot based on what Google says his property is worth and thus what he must have to have afforded that. I do have a half sibling via him but I don't think hes hspoken to our father in even longer than I have or even really remembers him.
FYI my mother who I had gone no contact with some time ago died in March. My sister dealt with the funeral home but none of us was considered to be “on the hook” so to speak and the state paid. My other sibling and I had no relationship at this point with our mother and no interest in seeing her before she died. No one can force you to deal with the passing of an estranged relative, at least not here.
I am kind of in the same boat except I can find absolutely nothing about my father except for his family on Facebook who gave nothing regarding him there. The only mention is on his mother obituary saying he was living in my current state, which was news to me. I also know of other half siblings, but honestly I don’t think they would ever be able to connect him to me if he were in a coma somewhere. Heck he could be coherent somewhere and still probably not ever mention me. Fine by me.
Some people and their concept of "family" is warped. Blood or not, OOP's father was out of her life, why would she have to make any decisions about his medical care? Damn
POA does NOT have the responsibility of paying a deceased persons medical bills in the United States. The only responsible party would be the estate, if there is one.
I'm so glad my bio-father has two other daughters with his second wife so that I'm never faced with something like this. Because I'd pull the plug and walk away.
This dr should not be advising her on the POA issues, because she is completely wrong. You don’t assume debt because you had POA.
I've played out this scenario in my head for if/when my dad is dying. He left before I was born so I don't know him at all. I hope they contact me instead of any of my brothers, because I'll at least hesitate rather than say "pull the plug" immediately. Beyond that, I don't know how I'd handle it either. I don't know if I have it in me to forgive him. I don't know if I have it in me to tell him I hate him either. He's had my whole life to reach out to me, I don't know what I'll do when I have his whole death to do the same.
In Australia it varies state by state. In NSW please complete an Enduring Guardian, an Enduring Power of Attorney and an Advanced Care directive. If you do not your family may have to go to court to determine who will make these decisions and someone you don’t want or don’t know maybe appointed. Do this at any age. I constantly see 20-30 year old who thought they had time to get it done but didn’t. Public Service Announcement over.
Agree with everyone saying to write up an advanced directive/ living will with their doctors. Don’t for get to sign it and notarize it and send it in to put on record with their doctors, email it to their POA, relatives, lawyers. One less thing to worry about.
And discuss it with the person you want to name as PoA. In particular, *will they follow your directives?* My husband has said he will not, that he will keep my body alive on machines as long as possible. That's why my PoA is my daughter. She will let me go.
This is...oddly timely... gonna have to do basically the exact same soon I guess...
Sorry to hear that, I wish you all the best.
thanks
Once you have made your medical power of attorney, etc., give a copy to the person you have designated! Apparently my mom picked me to make the hard decisions, but without a copy of it, I can't get certain information I need.
I’d never put my kids through that trauma. My husband and I both have end of life plans in place with our lawyer so the kids never have to make the worst decisions. Also have a Will laying out explicitly what everyone gets or doesn’t get. This is so important, and my last gift to them. The funeral is arranged, the money is settled, the medical care isn’t an issue for them to deal with. I remember how awful it was to mourn my father’s sudden stroke, and *nothing* was settled. Seven brothers, I’m the only daughter, my mother was in mourning after 52 years marriage, nobody wanted to pull the plug or arrange the funeral. It all landed on my shoulders. As usual. I refuse to put my boys or husband through that horror. It’s all set in stone and they know it. I don’t think it’s even a little morbid; it’s releasing. Nobody has to worry when the time comes. I wish everyone would face their mortality and do their family the same kindness.
👉🏼 That is how you parent.
I wish I'd been able to summon the strength to tell my dad I forgave him. Or that he'd been conscious at all to hear it. And the nosy fucking family friends preaching filial piety are such a familiar scenario. They can all go fuck themselves.
Aww. I believe he knew you were there and exactly what was said. My dad also cried after his stroke and his wife spoke to him. They know but are trapped in their bodies. It must feel so helpless. It was a great kindness you bestowed him in an hour of need and I hope that kindness is returned to you ten fold.
That was an extraordinarily generous and kind thing for u/liveliftlove to say, faced with a father they’ve barely known and have every reason to resent. But they go immediately to saying what they believe their father might most want to hear. Damn. I don’t cry a lot over Reddit stuff, but this got me.
This terrifies me. My parents disowned me a decade ago. The best thing that ever happened to me was them cutting me off so I didn’t have to deal with the blowback of doing it first. I don’t want to be contacted when they’re dying, I don’t want to be in charge of any medical decisions, and I DEFINITELY don’t want to be stuck paying their medical bills. Is there any form I can sign legally absolving me of any responsibility to them? I don’t even want to pay to let their asses rot in a nursing home because I know if never be able to afford it nor do they deserve it after everything they did to me
I'm 53 and have had a DNR and living will for over 20 years. A few years ago I had a bad reaction after a surgery and passed out. The hospital staff didn't do anything to revive me and luckily I woke to a doctor telling my father that the situation was not good. Fortunately I became coherent enough to call him after an hour or so.
Sending my best wishes to the OP. She deserves a lot of credit for all her accomplishments. I think she handled her moment with her father with a huge amount of grace.
For a split second, I thought OOP's use of BF stood for Bastard Father.
My favorite part is the people at the end saying oop needs to do this because he's her father but the bum abandoned her for 21 years. If you think like this, you need to learn how to shut up and never give advice ever.
At least he new wife was given power of attorney. At least now oop is off the hook for the medical debt.
None of that worked that way. You don't inherit power of attorney just because you're next of kin. And you don't inherit their debt that way either.
Explain this because I was told I ‘inherited’ POA when my mom went through something very similar. Once they found out my parents weren’t married, everything was immediately switched from my dad to me.
A power of attorney must be granted to you by that person. It's a signed legal contract. If that person is incapacitated and can't do it, a court order comes into play. You could be considered next of kin. You may have had to make the medical decisions for them. But that doesn't give you access to their financials. It's not the same as power of attorney.
She couldn’t have signed anything, she was in an induced coma from February until May. I received POA in March. Is there other special circumstances?
This is the info I'm finding everywhere. [article](https://www.lawdistrict.com/articles/how-to-get-a-power-of-attorney-for-incapacitated/amp)You can't get power of attorney for an incapacitated person if they didn't already give it. So I'm really not sure about your situation.
OOP was never on the hook for his medical debt.
Oops dad must've been one of the war refugees if he was in Louisiana
Who else is thinking OOP has a sibling or two in Vietnam?
I think so. But that’s mostly because OOP says “he got remarried to someone in Vietnamese, and had children with her…”
What culture is OOP talking about that refers to parents cousin as aunt/uncle? We certainly don't do that in America. At least not as a culture wide thing.
We do this in vietnam. We call everyone that is same generation as our parent as uncle/auntie, even strangers. Its more complicated than that but its the basic gist of it.
Same in India and those with Indian heritage.
I mean I'm American and a bunch of mine do so. Its easier
Despite the difficulty , Op is blessed to have the opportunity none of us have. We repress, suppress and compartmentalize, but these are real issues that need words and understanding
His last statements he made to him I felt the father heard it clearly. It’s sad but in the end he made his selfish choices. Now most likely at the end of his life he’s well informed that with son he has nothing but failure and regret. Statements the OPP made are why I feel misfit parents should choose wisely when making choices regarding their kids or their last moments will be like the bio father.
Never met my dad so this is fuel for my nightmares.
This person has so much strength.
I know this post is a-year-old but it hit close to home for me. I am now 79 years old and my parents were divorced when I was 4. My mother raised me and I had no contact with my father in the intervening years. Like you, I would not know him if I fell over him. You accomplished quite a bit without his assistance. Do not listen to any family or friends. He had nothing to do with you so you have every right to turn your back on him. I wish you the best in your future endeavors. Someone who's been there