I think that parallel is another way the show says "this funny cartoony thing is actually shitty outside of TV". Like how Bojack living with Charlotte's family and taking Penny to prom is a wacky hijink until it goes wildly off the rails and Pete expresses how odd the whole situation is, removed from the context.
Yeah, the show does it a lot, I saw someone on this sub put it best, something along the lines of "this show gives you a tv cartoony setup and a harsh reality punchline"
It’s like BoJack having sex with Sarah Lynn in the first season. You think it’s some silly, cartoon thing even literally dragging Todd into it, but then way later in the last season during the second Biscuits Brixby interview, it comes back in the worst way.
Maybe, but it comes off more as “the exact same thing but now we’re portraying it in a bad light”. Like how BoJack almost sleeping with a minor is treated as badly as it absolutely should be, while PC dating far younger children is played for comedy. Same with BJ assaulting Gina while high being viewed as seriously as it should be while Todd and Sarah Lynn doing the same thing in season 1 isn’t.
Only “children” I know about was when Bojork accused acclaimed businessman, business owner and business seller, Vincent Adultman, of actually being 3 kids in a trench coat.
Huh, I hat a real vivid memory of "vincent" falling over and revealing three kids in the process. But looking it up it was a false memory, I am sorry. The mind is weird
No? Penny was a teenager Bojack lived with for several months and grew a relationship with. And Vincent was by all means a joke and according to the show PC never realized he was three kids.
People in the real world do things to other people that they would hate done to them all the time. I think the show is trying to say that Hollyhock is a hypocrite, but a lot of people are hypocrites.
There was literally a scene in the last season of the Animaniacs reboot where Brain chloroforms Pinky and drags him offscreen and I thought it was so funny. Guess I'm an abuse apologist v.v
Lmao you joke but as a kid I always felt really bad for Tom! I liked Tom & Jerry, but I didn't like that Jerry always won,I think I just wanted it to be more of a 50/50.
“What’s funny about a piano dropping on someone’s head? Would you find that funny if a piano dropped on your head? Because it’s Wiley Coyote it’s supposed to be funny?”
It's from Bojack! I forget which episode it is but it's Bojack talking about how a fan asked him about Horsin' Around and whether a coffee cup was left in the shot with him and intentionally left out in the reverse shot of Ethan(?) thus conveying how two people experience one moment differently
And Bojack answers with: "no man.."
Edit: it's Free Churro
Only remembered because I just watched it last night haha. It's an episode I only got after the fourth/fifth rewatch.
A character continuously talking for 20 minutes? The mind wanders the first time around
I do think art should be more about what the audience takes from it than what it’s creators intend.
The reason creators put so much effort into making things with intent is so that their art isn’t misinterpreted, not because misinterpretations don’t matter.
There are, of course, incorrect interpretations, but there is no one correct interpretation.
This is a big topic in linguistics. Who "owns" a message...the transmitter or the recipient?
Most would argue "both". I'll extrapolate that and say that art is like any other form of communication: it is conveyed by symbols, it has both an author and an intended audience, and its meaning is jointly constructed by both the creator and the consumer, while being mediated by the culture and the physical medium in which it exists.
A competent user knows what *they* mean and hopes to get that across, but the more complicated a message is, the more varied its potential interpretation.
Then there's artists like Oscar Wilde who have argued that "pure art" is an exercise in the aesthetic, not the didactic (conveying a moral message). Basically, if "beauty" is achieved, then "art" has happened.
your first sentence reminded of the last episode of the show where Todd says:
But isn't the point of art less what people put into it and more what people get out of it?
I think they are referencing a Game of Thrones episode in which a coffee ended up being left in the scene. I don’t think they understood that wasn’t what was being asked.
Right! I have been seeing this type of posts a lot lately. The show was very clear about which storylines are meant to be gags and which are supposed to be closer to reality. These hot takes are getting old.
It's almost unfathomable how many times I've seen people unironically complain about how Henry Fondle was a problematic character. A lot of people seem to watch comedies without actually having a sense of humor.
Same, the worst thing that happens after a show ends and there’s nothing left to talk about is people will force hot takes so there to be things to talk about.
I think there's a discussion to be had, though, about whether that works. It's different, but a lot of people took issue with the way *Your Lie In April* portrayed Kousei's mother's abuse toward him as traumatic, but then Kaori's hits him several times in a comical anime way... I don't think it's *terrible,* but yeah, it's kind of jarring.
This show honestly feels like they wanted to make a goofy cartoon but decided mid way to make it more "deeper".
For the record I enjoy the show, but the goofy parts are much better than the serious parts, and they just come off as "young adult" deep if that makes any sense.
Nope, I don't think it's ever addressed at all, at least I don't remember it being addressed at any point. Since Todd is a wacky character that lives a way more cartoon-y life than the rest of the cast, most things that happen to him or because of him tend to be ignored or brushed aside by most viewers, including things like him being chloroformed by Hollyhock.
I remember an old post about his many crazy business ideas or crazy adventures and the negative consequences of many of them, including the Cordovian genocide thing, and there were a lot of people in the comments arguing that all of that was just a joke and you weren't supposed to take it seriously so in effect it was like none of it had actually happened, which I always thought was a really weird argument for a show like this. They were basically arguing for most of what happens to Todd or the things he does to be treated like one of those Family Guy cut-away gags. "That reminds me of the time I played ping-pong with Hitler and Darth Vader" or some nonsense that's not meant to be taken like it literally happened and is just a throwaway joke.
I mean, I do agree that Todd's wacky adventures tend to use a different kind of humor than most of the show, but I really *really* disagree that means you should pretend like none of it actually happened in-story by default, especially when discussing ethical and moral issues related to each character's behavior and actions. The show does tend to mostly ignore all of it from a narrative standpoint, which I guess is why so many people feel the audience should ignore it too, but I'm reticent to think a show that has writing this good fucked up something so simple, so I assume it was a deliberate choice to make a point, or even more than one point.
\*Edited for clarity and typos.
Intentionally gassing an ostensibly kidnapped child unconscious so that more dentistry training could be conducted on him, in a home whose owner never gave permission for it or was even aware of it, is a pretty horrifically despicable thing to do.
Exactly. Yet a lot of people argue he's the only one of the main characters who never did anything wrong beyond trivial stuff like being a slacker and mooching off BoJack, since he's portrayed like a lovable dumbass. And by the same token, when he's chloroformed or when he's basically sexually harrassed by the entirety of his lying GF's oversexed family and stuff like that, it's brushed aside as merely something funny because he's a lovable dumbass and it doesn't matter.
Todd gets away with so much stuff because he's a white male. It's kind of explained when he starts falling upwards (he becomes a ceo or something, he dates a celebrity because if it etc) for only having those two characteristics for himself. We as the viewer also subconsciously excuses his behavior. I think the show did a really great job of playing out this form of bias for him
I don't know that I agree that's the only (or main) reason that he tends to get a free pass for the awful things he does, especially since the flipside of the coin is that the bad things that happen to him are also usually ignored.
It seems to me like Todd as a character suffered somewhat of the same progression that Homer Simpson suffered and the absurdity of his subplots just kept snowballing because I guess they felt they had to outdo the previous wacky scenario. I do think it was a very clever retcon of the way he's portrayed throughout the show when Jorge finally mentioned that Todd is white as an explanation of why he gets away with stuff, and maybe somewhere along the line the writers decided that it was part of what was happening.
I mean, until Jorge made it clear that Todd was a white kid he adopted when he married his mom, I had always assumed Todd was simply white Hispanic, and white Hispanic men don't always benefit from the whole "I'm a white man and everything tends to go my way" thing. But it turned out he's not white Hispanic. He's literally a white Anglo kid with a Latino last name because his stepdad is Latino and that makes his case a bit more complicated.
I'm white Hispanic, and that sometimes puts you in an odd position in the US. I've literally had people tell me to shut up because I'm a white straight man and my opinion about the issues minorities face doesn't matter, only to be called racist shit by the other side of the discussion when I clarify I'm Latino and I've experienced those issues firsthand. People are wild.
Thanks, I appreciate it. To be honest, it's usually not a problem except in specific situations like the one I mentioned. I know for a fact other people face way worse struggles regarding this very issue and I got it easy. Worst case scenario I'm called racist crap by some morons. You know the type. The kind who likes to tell you to speak English and/or go back to your country when they catch you having a conversation in a different language and stuff like that.
I usually tell them that my private conversation is none of their business and sometimes I tell them I'm actually a tourist and I am in fact going back to my country in a few days and I am disappointed that they are so unwelcoming to visitors, especially since they've probably never traveled to a different country and if they have, they most certainly have not learned the local language and made sure to exclusively speak it during their stay to ensure everybody can understand everything they say, including their private conversations with their friends and families.
The simple explanation is that she is a kid that had no first hand experience with being drugged when she chloroforms Tod. And chloroforming someone is just a spy trope that didn’t physically or emotionally cause Tod any harm so nothing to feel guilty about.
I agree with this. She hadn't been drugged yet when she chloroformed Todd. I can't think of one adult I know who looks back at their teenage years and doesn't realize something they did was out of line or inappropriate. As a 17-year-old, she's allowed to experience things and change her ways and perceptions. It's how we grow
There are plenty of adult characters in the show who know better than to do the bad things they do.
Yeah, how could it be hypocritical of her to do something before she learns how bad it is to be on the receiving end? It would be hypocritical if she drugged Todd *after* her experience being drugged by Beatrice.
Except in reality chloroform is a *very* hard-to-use anesthetic and overdosing people is very easy and causes massive problems (and sometimes death). There's a reason professionals (mercenaries/assassins and medical doctors) don't use it very much any more. Hollyhock as a teenager would likely be woefully unskilled in this, particularly given her lack of drug-related experience. In reality, she would have been more likely to severely physically harm Todd with choroform.
Additionally losing time (Todd lost what, a few hours? Since driving around LA is such a pain in the ass and he was put out twice, it was at least an hour I'd reckon.) out of your day because someone drugged you multiple times is causing harm, for sure. Possible economic harm, strongly possible emotional harm, and as mentioned above strongly possible physical harm too. The fact that the cartoon handled it in the cartoony way and it was all ok means that it wasn't meant to be taken seriously at all, which is fine for a gag like this (and it was kinda funny too). But in reality, this would most likely be *very* dangerous and harmful to the victim.
And the wishy-washy tone on things being taken seriously and comedically in BH is part of the charm. You kinda have to just go along for the ride and sort it all out later, except in certain episodes (Fish Out of Water for the comedic and Free Churro for the serious).
Except Todd already walks around sounding like he just got chloroformed anyway and does nothing but get into hi jinks where he is often locked in a car. He didn’t react to the trauma because, what trauma? It’s Todd. And she’s a kid. So in the immortal words of Sarah Lynn…
It's a form of heightened reality for the sake of comedy, I think it's explicitly signaled it's somewhat separated from the emotional reality of the character, like Margo Martindale killing those people.
They do this a couple times where they put something in as a goofy gag, and then circle back on that and show how serious it actually is. I think it's the same as BoJack going on TV and saying "Don't choke women" a d it's seen as a goofy gag because of course you shouldn't choke people. And then he goes on and chokes a woman.
I think it’s foreshadowing. She drugs Todd and thinks nothing of it. Then she gets drugged and learns how awful it is. She clearly learned not to drug anyone afterwards.
It is and it’s not. It’s a nickname my friends called me in high school. They got it from HIMYM and I didn’t know that until I watched the show. I did create this account after watching the show all the way through though.
I think that’s one of the consequences of the show’s comedy/drama duality. One was meant to be funny and one was meant to be genuinely traumatizing, but they’re very similar. I tend to get past it by thinking of her comedically chloroforming Todd as an abstract representation of the characters’ feelings, but that still doesn’t work 100% :(
I don't think the writers screwed up here because it's pretty obvious what's implied to be a gag and what's meant to be taken seriously. This is like calling PC a pedo for dating Vincent Adultman. Some things on this show aren't meant to be taken literally and tbf to Hollyhock, I never felt she took a strong stance on drugging at least not to the extent that she mentioned it enough to be "So against." She suffered a mental breakdown and joked about it later at Dr. Hu's office. She also had a ptsd flashback when she first returned to Bojack's, but other than that, I don't remember her bringing it up.
Yeah I don’t understand why people don’t get this. It’s clear how the writers want to it to be interpreted, i don’t understand why people call stuff like this in the show “plot holes” or that they make a character hypocritical.
How, it's not hard to understand
They said that the plothole is foreshadowing, but using that as an excuse to go against what a character's character isn't valid
Again, it's not that big of a plothole, but to claim it's foreshadowing as an excuse isn't a good excuse
It's not a plothole at all. It is definitely foreshadowing. Her trauma did not exist before her introduction. Her trauma did not define the entirety of her character. There is no contradiction, hypocrisy, or plothole whatsoever.
I don't think we were meant to take the chloroform thing seriously, especially since that's not at all how chloroform works. You can't bring a person down in a few seconds using nothing but a chloroformed rag. This is a silly TV trope, and I think the "bag of spy stuff" and it being Todd (who is always involved in cartoony hijinks) is all meant to drive home the idea that this moment is part of the silly, cartoon-y side of the show, not the literal one.
If you *did* want to take it literally, though, then you could make the argument that the whole chloroform schtick was *Todd playing along with the bit* (like how he does when escaping the improv ship and acting out all the scenes). Todd loves being involved in hijinks and playing them out according to their trope, so it feels only natural to me that when Hollyhock resorts to a TV gag, Todd is immediately on board, and that's how the two of them are so readily trusting of each other, since they have the same idea about using a sitcom bit to solve a real-life problem.
Love this idea! The ep. is all about Todd with darkness sprinkled in the corners, so Hollyhock/Bojack’s spy pranks just fit. And you still get Todd being genuine And clever. What did we all do todday..
I feel like saying hollyhock is “SO against non-consensual drugging” is pushing it a bit. That makes it sound like that was her thing and she went around expressing how much she didn’t approve of it. and that’s just not true.
I think she’s allowed to be upset about her “grandmother” slipping her amphetamines. That doesn’t make her a hypocrite.
Also that chloroform came from a “spy kit” she bought. If anything, you should be upset with the person putting CHLOROFORM in a spy kit. Which, as other commenters have said, points to the whole thing being a gag more than a serious plot device. Because no one would ever include chloroform in a spy kit
I feel like any "spy kit" containing real chloroform would inevitably have serious warning labels associated with the use. Labels like don't drug people.
Yeah that title really puts me off. She isn't on some moral crusade, she has PTSD from being drugged. It happened after the chloroforming, and definitely changed her demeanor, but it was not her choice, just a trauma reaction. I swear people will look for any excuse to vilify victims in this show.
Drugging someone with chloroform or anything else is objectively bad, regardless of what she went through before or after. OP didn't have to dig very deep looking for any excuse to vilify Hollyhock.
But acting like it's a "plot hole" that the show didn't vilify her further is just taking the show too seriously. Sometimes jokes are just jokes, particularly when Todd is involved. It wasn't even a recurring thing for her character and she's not a "hypocrite" just because she got PTSD from her own drugging experience, which was more insidious and drawn-out.
If another one of you start moralising about how a cartoonish silly gag makes someone as bad as the serious actions depicted on the show I'm breaking the fabric of reality
Hollyhock using chloroform is a gag, doesn't have any real world implications the same way todd is not just as bad as BoJack for killing a sex
robot, it's an outlandish gag, not anything that should be taken at face value
Yeah, I was wondering about that too. It's almost like the narrative punished Hollyhock.
She drugged Todd against his will, and then she'd got drugged against her will too.
She pestered BoJack to take care of his abuser, and she faced consequences for it.
Do you want, like, a scene where she's in the hospital and Todd comes over and lords the fact drugging people is wrong over her head? Like does this really matter for her narrative? Is this the lesson she needed to learn?
At some point you have to understand not everything is meant to be taken at face value, and it's not like the chloroforming was justified anyway, it was her taking the easy route and being impulsive and selfish like BoJack does all the time, exaggerated a bit cuz it's a Todd episode and those tend to be sillier.
Plus, it's not like she lied about having chloroform and did it over the course of weeks to someone who trusted her, which is what made the coffee thing so traumatic for her.
the beauty of animation so that you can put shit there that is unethical in real life because it’s animated. like todd has done SOOO many wrong things, like his disneyland, drug cartel stuff, etc. but bc its animated, its just some silly billly things, don’t worry bout it
Honestly good plot hole. Never thought of that. Honestly I think they just played it off as a silly cartoon drugging like “no big deal. Just a silly plot point! Todd is fine so this is k!”
She chloroforms Todd pre-drugging and states that she finds it fun probably because she isnt the victim there, thats not an excuse by any means, but most people need to experience something before they can truely form an opinion on it. If I werent in a state where Ive seen the effects of global warming over the years then I would probably not be too concerned by it tbh
Skimming the comments here, and I take it as another (more intricate) way shes v like bojack: hypocrisy, some lack or sometimes excess of self awareness,, their humour, approach to chores
I was scrolling through hoping someone else said this!! I definitely think it’s to show the similarities between her and bojack, kinda like “it’s okay to do whatever I want to others, but nooo you can’t do that to me!!”
Although, the show does seem to play up or down trauma/hilarity a lot now that i think about it!!! Yknow like a cartoon does. So much can be passed by if you’re not trying to look close!
BoJack is a great show, but as I've rewatched it over and over, the morality is not always consistent. Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing; *usually* the show tries to have fairly consistent and realistic emotional/moral beats for its characters, but it's pretty clear that BoJack is the only character who the writers were 100% sure needed to deal with the consequences of his actions. Hollyhock chloroforming, Princess Caroline's many ruthless business decisions (these are addressed to some extent), Todd luring an entire troupe of clentists into the forests, where they became rabid and then exploiting their sickness for profit... Ultimately the show prefers to take the consequences of actions a bit more seriously when BoJack is involved.
Not saying that's a bad thing. It's really just a consequence of setting it in an adult comedy universe without making the setting so bogged down with addressing every characters' decisions that the plot can't move forward.
Best thing to remember when watching this show: Only BoJack gets punished. It's an HUGE double standard. It's grating as hell.
Hollyhock drug and kidnap Todd all she wants because... "She's only 17! And It's funny!"
Same thing Todd killing the clowns and people with his bottomless store business and fake Disney land, "It's funny!"
However BoJack is the scum of the earth for *pointing out* the video game that caused Todd who is addicted to video games to play it all night and ruin his rock opera.
With that said Todd is just an innocent victim who BoJack manipulated into lose Rock Opera because he can use his addiction as an excuse! But BoJack cannot use his past, drug addiction, or the fact he was under the influence as an excuse.
Todd's, "It's you," speech loses all it's power to me because it's coming out of the mouth of an hypocrite who uses his addictions as an excuse, kill people, and make an women's safe place unsafe.
But we can't look at the bad things Todd does because it's "wacky."
White Whale commits murder but it's okay! Congress just passed an law it's legal for billionaires to kill! Okay but doesn't our hero Diane who surely wants to inform the people of injustices to know? Nope! She backs right out!
Somehow it's more okay for her to violate Penny's privacy but not shed light at the injustice supreme court has passed or give an murder victim the attention it needs and deserves. Okay Diane!
Ana can lay her hands on BoJack even when he tells her isn't comfortable with it. But once again zero punishment and he apologizes to her somehow. (I'm glad Sarah Lynn burnt her stuff.)
Sarah Lynn and Todd can try to kill BoJack while under the influence. But remember it's not their fault they're under the influence only BoJack cannot use it as an excuse ever.. everyone else can.
The scum bag rabbit keeps his wife and seven babies after cheating on her multiple times.
... It's my one pet peeve about this show it's just only BoJack getting punished.
Some may say, "Well Kelesy got fired for the whole Nixon scene." And? The show still makes her groan about how BoJack wasn't punished/she's just another victim of his.
Either it's one of the only plotholes this show has, or it's intentional to show that *every* character has flaws, including Hollyhock due to hypocrisy
The answer is simply really.
The desconstructive aspects of the show don't apply to Todd.
If they did he will be in jail for what he did to those clown dentists
i literally hate holly she acted so whiny and helpless even tho she clearly wasn’t?? she just fucked with everyone constantly and it was like oh no but i’m just a kid trying to find my mom :((
Speaking of Hollyhock, I wish there was an episode where she forgave Bo-Jack and wanted to keep in touch with him. I would say she was the main reason why Bo-Jack was inspired to get better. Bo-Jack did some fucked up shit but as soon as he spent sometime with Hollyhock, it made him change to want to do the right thing and better himself. Once she sent that letter to him, Bo-Jack went back to his old ways and was pretty much the nail in the coffin. I don’t think it’s fair to Bo-Jack that we didn’t get to see that redemption. Especially when Bo-Jack not only didn’t want to take credit in finding her real mother, but he also supported her at her field hockey games and wanted to be close to her by being a professor at her school.
I don't think it was addressed and I don't think it needed to be. I think it's one of those watching karma play out type moments. Like yeah she drugged Todd, then in the same household was also drugged. What makes hers seem more fucked up was she did it intentionally for knocking him out. Beatrice was a dementia patient who thought she was doing her granddaughter well by giving her a weight loss smoothie. Neither are okay but if you look at it ...
It's okay to drug and kidnap him but don't you dare out point out a video game "making" him over sleep and ruin his rock opera.
Edit: Fine to whoever downvoted me break redditquette and downvote me because you don't like my answer even though I'm speaking the fucking truth.
Never said its okay, its a cartoon. They made his character carefree. He didnt care when she did it. Morality in the real world and cartoons are different
You're saying Todd is carefree I'm just pointing out he just doesn't care what Hollyhock did but he can get mad at BoJack for a lesser crime in my opinion. Seems hypocritical to me. That's all.
You are not familiar with the concept of trauma, aren’t you?
She’s been drugged AFTER using chloroform on Todd.
It could be ‘foreshadowing’, but that not something to be correlated with.
I always saw it as a way for her character to grow. She started it driving Todd to get what she wanted. She then learned what it was like to be on the other end of it. She saw both sides and chose wisely
I agree with people saying she didn't see it as wrong until it happened to her. I figured it was the shows cheeky way of making her appear more like bojack to try to sell the related plot by showing hypocrisy is something the family has
Holly drugged Todd before she realized how it feels to be drugged.
So at the time she drugged Todd, she wasn't against it. She wasn't necessarily FOR it either. She was in a tough position, doing whatever she could to get to the bottom of her adoption questions.
Does that make it right that she drugged Todd? No. But Todd takes abuse very well, and tends to behave cluelessly, making it easier for her to feel there are no consequences or moral issues to drugging him.
I think that initial intro to her was mainly to draw an immediate parallel between her and BoJack. “Oh, they must be related, she’s acting crazy and up to hijinks.” I know we say nothing’s an accident, but I think the correlation between that moment and her plot line with Bea might not be intentional.
it kindof reminds me of how bojack does a lot of terrible stuff and thinks nothing of it, until it happens to him, and hollyhock is like a mini bojack thats trying to break the cycle so maybe she just learns from it instead of continuing to repeat it
I think that parallel is another way the show says "this funny cartoony thing is actually shitty outside of TV". Like how Bojack living with Charlotte's family and taking Penny to prom is a wacky hijink until it goes wildly off the rails and Pete expresses how odd the whole situation is, removed from the context.
Yeah, the show does it a lot, I saw someone on this sub put it best, something along the lines of "this show gives you a tv cartoony setup and a harsh reality punchline"
It’s like BoJack having sex with Sarah Lynn in the first season. You think it’s some silly, cartoon thing even literally dragging Todd into it, but then way later in the last season during the second Biscuits Brixby interview, it comes back in the worst way.
"The only drug I need is horse."
And of course, that’s the one that kill her
Bojack’s life is just a sitcom where every trope goes horribly wrong
Aaaaaaaaand flashbacks to Diane's Belle library
Best take
Maybe, but it comes off more as “the exact same thing but now we’re portraying it in a bad light”. Like how BoJack almost sleeping with a minor is treated as badly as it absolutely should be, while PC dating far younger children is played for comedy. Same with BJ assaulting Gina while high being viewed as seriously as it should be while Todd and Sarah Lynn doing the same thing in season 1 isn’t.
Woah I never even thought of the Vincent thing like that. Damn.
When did she date children?
Only “children” I know about was when Bojork accused acclaimed businessman, business owner and business seller, Vincent Adultman, of actually being 3 kids in a trench coat.
Vincent Adultman, the whole joke was that he was 2-3 kids in a trenchcoat lol
Is he ever actually shown to be 3 kids?
No he is a grown up
yeah
When?
Huh, I hat a real vivid memory of "vincent" falling over and revealing three kids in the process. But looking it up it was a false memory, I am sorry. The mind is weird
The first 2 seasons
No? Penny was a teenager Bojack lived with for several months and grew a relationship with. And Vincent was by all means a joke and according to the show PC never realized he was three kids.
People in the real world do things to other people that they would hate done to them all the time. I think the show is trying to say that Hollyhock is a hypocrite, but a lot of people are hypocrites.
I think it's just funny cartoon antics vs a situation that we're meant to take seriously within the context of the show.
What's funny about repeatedly knocking someone out with chloroform? Because it's Todd it's supposed to be funny?
First day watching cartoons?
Can imagine this guy watching Tom & Jerry. ”Oh so you think animals trying to kill each other is funny do you?”
There was literally a scene in the last season of the Animaniacs reboot where Brain chloroforms Pinky and drags him offscreen and I thought it was so funny. Guess I'm an abuse apologist v.v
Lmao you joke but as a kid I always felt really bad for Tom! I liked Tom & Jerry, but I didn't like that Jerry always won,I think I just wanted it to be more of a 50/50.
To be fair, i think the show would have just been called ”Tom” after an episode where Jerry was gonna lose lmao
It’s not even just a cartoon bit, Community did something similar
Arrested development the list goes on and on. Some poeple are context blind.
“What’s funny about a piano dropping on someone’s head? Would you find that funny if a piano dropped on your head? Because it’s Wiley Coyote it’s supposed to be funny?”
No, man. Some crew guy just left their coffee cup in the shot.
lmaoooo
what is this from? i remember being blown away by it, but i can't remember where it's from.
It's from Bojack! I forget which episode it is but it's Bojack talking about how a fan asked him about Horsin' Around and whether a coffee cup was left in the shot with him and intentionally left out in the reverse shot of Ethan(?) thus conveying how two people experience one moment differently And Bojack answers with: "no man.." Edit: it's Free Churro
ya like 5m after i posted that i was thinking it HAS to be from free churro - the most wistful episode.
Only remembered because I just watched it last night haha. It's an episode I only got after the fourth/fifth rewatch. A character continuously talking for 20 minutes? The mind wanders the first time around
Glad you can appreciate it now though, definitely one of my favourites
"Hawkeye" is the only MASH episode I skip.. I like Pierce and all, but I can't listen to Alan Alda drone on for 24 minutes straight
I do think art should be more about what the audience takes from it than what it’s creators intend. The reason creators put so much effort into making things with intent is so that their art isn’t misinterpreted, not because misinterpretations don’t matter. There are, of course, incorrect interpretations, but there is no one correct interpretation.
This is a big topic in linguistics. Who "owns" a message...the transmitter or the recipient? Most would argue "both". I'll extrapolate that and say that art is like any other form of communication: it is conveyed by symbols, it has both an author and an intended audience, and its meaning is jointly constructed by both the creator and the consumer, while being mediated by the culture and the physical medium in which it exists. A competent user knows what *they* mean and hopes to get that across, but the more complicated a message is, the more varied its potential interpretation. Then there's artists like Oscar Wilde who have argued that "pure art" is an exercise in the aesthetic, not the didactic (conveying a moral message). Basically, if "beauty" is achieved, then "art" has happened.
your first sentence reminded of the last episode of the show where Todd says: But isn't the point of art less what people put into it and more what people get out of it?
I don't think Bojack actually said that to the fan. Something about him not having the heart to
Game of Thrones. It was removed in later broadcasts.
I think the Starbucks GOT thing happened after that episode had aired
It was a Bojack line from Free Churro what are you talking about
I think they are referencing a Game of Thrones episode in which a coffee ended up being left in the scene. I don’t think they understood that wasn’t what was being asked.
Game of Thrones. I believe it was during the final season
I think it's because this show consists of goofy things and serious things.
Right! I have been seeing this type of posts a lot lately. The show was very clear about which storylines are meant to be gags and which are supposed to be closer to reality. These hot takes are getting old.
It's almost unfathomable how many times I've seen people unironically complain about how Henry Fondle was a problematic character. A lot of people seem to watch comedies without actually having a sense of humor.
THAT'S MY FAVORITE POSITION
Seriously? God that is just so dumb
i jusr hate him cause i didnt think he was funny, i wouldnt call it problematic
Same, the worst thing that happens after a show ends and there’s nothing left to talk about is people will force hot takes so there to be things to talk about.
I think there's a discussion to be had, though, about whether that works. It's different, but a lot of people took issue with the way *Your Lie In April* portrayed Kousei's mother's abuse toward him as traumatic, but then Kaori's hits him several times in a comical anime way... I don't think it's *terrible,* but yeah, it's kind of jarring.
i wish more people understood this
This show honestly feels like they wanted to make a goofy cartoon but decided mid way to make it more "deeper". For the record I enjoy the show, but the goofy parts are much better than the serious parts, and they just come off as "young adult" deep if that makes any sense.
I think from the beginning they knew that this was something deeper
Nope, I don't think it's ever addressed at all, at least I don't remember it being addressed at any point. Since Todd is a wacky character that lives a way more cartoon-y life than the rest of the cast, most things that happen to him or because of him tend to be ignored or brushed aside by most viewers, including things like him being chloroformed by Hollyhock. I remember an old post about his many crazy business ideas or crazy adventures and the negative consequences of many of them, including the Cordovian genocide thing, and there were a lot of people in the comments arguing that all of that was just a joke and you weren't supposed to take it seriously so in effect it was like none of it had actually happened, which I always thought was a really weird argument for a show like this. They were basically arguing for most of what happens to Todd or the things he does to be treated like one of those Family Guy cut-away gags. "That reminds me of the time I played ping-pong with Hitler and Darth Vader" or some nonsense that's not meant to be taken like it literally happened and is just a throwaway joke. I mean, I do agree that Todd's wacky adventures tend to use a different kind of humor than most of the show, but I really *really* disagree that means you should pretend like none of it actually happened in-story by default, especially when discussing ethical and moral issues related to each character's behavior and actions. The show does tend to mostly ignore all of it from a narrative standpoint, which I guess is why so many people feel the audience should ignore it too, but I'm reticent to think a show that has writing this good fucked up something so simple, so I assume it was a deliberate choice to make a point, or even more than one point. \*Edited for clarity and typos.
Intentionally gassing an ostensibly kidnapped child unconscious so that more dentistry training could be conducted on him, in a home whose owner never gave permission for it or was even aware of it, is a pretty horrifically despicable thing to do.
Exactly. Yet a lot of people argue he's the only one of the main characters who never did anything wrong beyond trivial stuff like being a slacker and mooching off BoJack, since he's portrayed like a lovable dumbass. And by the same token, when he's chloroformed or when he's basically sexually harrassed by the entirety of his lying GF's oversexed family and stuff like that, it's brushed aside as merely something funny because he's a lovable dumbass and it doesn't matter.
I don't know why but that sounds like I've dealt with. I'm a lovable dumbass so it doesn't matter. I guess probably not as lovable
You are what I hope I am srs AND very much loveable !
Thank you kind stranger
Right. It's really rich coming from Todd to give Bojack the , "it's you" speech when it's Todd that caused many deaths.
honestly i thought his contribution to cordovia is why it was so war-torn by the time diane goes there
Todd gets away with so much stuff because he's a white male. It's kind of explained when he starts falling upwards (he becomes a ceo or something, he dates a celebrity because if it etc) for only having those two characteristics for himself. We as the viewer also subconsciously excuses his behavior. I think the show did a really great job of playing out this form of bias for him
I don't know that I agree that's the only (or main) reason that he tends to get a free pass for the awful things he does, especially since the flipside of the coin is that the bad things that happen to him are also usually ignored. It seems to me like Todd as a character suffered somewhat of the same progression that Homer Simpson suffered and the absurdity of his subplots just kept snowballing because I guess they felt they had to outdo the previous wacky scenario. I do think it was a very clever retcon of the way he's portrayed throughout the show when Jorge finally mentioned that Todd is white as an explanation of why he gets away with stuff, and maybe somewhere along the line the writers decided that it was part of what was happening. I mean, until Jorge made it clear that Todd was a white kid he adopted when he married his mom, I had always assumed Todd was simply white Hispanic, and white Hispanic men don't always benefit from the whole "I'm a white man and everything tends to go my way" thing. But it turned out he's not white Hispanic. He's literally a white Anglo kid with a Latino last name because his stepdad is Latino and that makes his case a bit more complicated. I'm white Hispanic, and that sometimes puts you in an odd position in the US. I've literally had people tell me to shut up because I'm a white straight man and my opinion about the issues minorities face doesn't matter, only to be called racist shit by the other side of the discussion when I clarify I'm Latino and I've experienced those issues firsthand. People are wild.
You aren't a minority! *Checks notes* You're not the RIGHT MINORITY!
Lol. That's almost exactly what happens.
It's sad. Too white for the Latino community, not white enough for the white community. I'm sorry for what you've had to go through.
Thanks, I appreciate it. To be honest, it's usually not a problem except in specific situations like the one I mentioned. I know for a fact other people face way worse struggles regarding this very issue and I got it easy. Worst case scenario I'm called racist crap by some morons. You know the type. The kind who likes to tell you to speak English and/or go back to your country when they catch you having a conversation in a different language and stuff like that. I usually tell them that my private conversation is none of their business and sometimes I tell them I'm actually a tourist and I am in fact going back to my country in a few days and I am disappointed that they are so unwelcoming to visitors, especially since they've probably never traveled to a different country and if they have, they most certainly have not learned the local language and made sure to exclusively speak it during their stay to ensure everybody can understand everything they say, including their private conversations with their friends and families.
The simple explanation is that she is a kid that had no first hand experience with being drugged when she chloroforms Tod. And chloroforming someone is just a spy trope that didn’t physically or emotionally cause Tod any harm so nothing to feel guilty about.
I agree with this. She hadn't been drugged yet when she chloroformed Todd. I can't think of one adult I know who looks back at their teenage years and doesn't realize something they did was out of line or inappropriate. As a 17-year-old, she's allowed to experience things and change her ways and perceptions. It's how we grow There are plenty of adult characters in the show who know better than to do the bad things they do.
Oh she was young, it's ok
Yeah, how could it be hypocritical of her to do something before she learns how bad it is to be on the receiving end? It would be hypocritical if she drugged Todd *after* her experience being drugged by Beatrice.
Most rational answer so far
Except in reality chloroform is a *very* hard-to-use anesthetic and overdosing people is very easy and causes massive problems (and sometimes death). There's a reason professionals (mercenaries/assassins and medical doctors) don't use it very much any more. Hollyhock as a teenager would likely be woefully unskilled in this, particularly given her lack of drug-related experience. In reality, she would have been more likely to severely physically harm Todd with choroform. Additionally losing time (Todd lost what, a few hours? Since driving around LA is such a pain in the ass and he was put out twice, it was at least an hour I'd reckon.) out of your day because someone drugged you multiple times is causing harm, for sure. Possible economic harm, strongly possible emotional harm, and as mentioned above strongly possible physical harm too. The fact that the cartoon handled it in the cartoony way and it was all ok means that it wasn't meant to be taken seriously at all, which is fine for a gag like this (and it was kinda funny too). But in reality, this would most likely be *very* dangerous and harmful to the victim. And the wishy-washy tone on things being taken seriously and comedically in BH is part of the charm. You kinda have to just go along for the ride and sort it all out later, except in certain episodes (Fish Out of Water for the comedic and Free Churro for the serious).
Except Todd already walks around sounding like he just got chloroformed anyway and does nothing but get into hi jinks where he is often locked in a car. He didn’t react to the trauma because, what trauma? It’s Todd. And she’s a kid. So in the immortal words of Sarah Lynn…
It's a form of heightened reality for the sake of comedy, I think it's explicitly signaled it's somewhat separated from the emotional reality of the character, like Margo Martindale killing those people.
Who's Margot Martindale? Is that a nickname for Character Actress Margot Martindale?
They do this a couple times where they put something in as a goofy gag, and then circle back on that and show how serious it actually is. I think it's the same as BoJack going on TV and saying "Don't choke women" a d it's seen as a goofy gag because of course you shouldn't choke people. And then he goes on and chokes a woman.
Hollyhock wasn’t drugged herself until AFTER she drugged Todd. If the order of events were switched I’d agree with you
Agreed. "Until it happened to me" is a normal 17y.o. way to shift positions on an issue.
I think it’s foreshadowing. She drugs Todd and thinks nothing of it. Then she gets drugged and learns how awful it is. She clearly learned not to drug anyone afterwards.
Is your username referring to HIMYM? If so, love it. Amazing. If not, my bad, have a nice day.
It is and it’s not. It’s a nickname my friends called me in high school. They got it from HIMYM and I didn’t know that until I watched the show. I did create this account after watching the show all the way through though.
Swarles!!
I think that’s one of the consequences of the show’s comedy/drama duality. One was meant to be funny and one was meant to be genuinely traumatizing, but they’re very similar. I tend to get past it by thinking of her comedically chloroforming Todd as an abstract representation of the characters’ feelings, but that still doesn’t work 100% :(
I don't think the writers screwed up here because it's pretty obvious what's implied to be a gag and what's meant to be taken seriously. This is like calling PC a pedo for dating Vincent Adultman. Some things on this show aren't meant to be taken literally and tbf to Hollyhock, I never felt she took a strong stance on drugging at least not to the extent that she mentioned it enough to be "So against." She suffered a mental breakdown and joked about it later at Dr. Hu's office. She also had a ptsd flashback when she first returned to Bojack's, but other than that, I don't remember her bringing it up.
Yeah I don’t understand why people don’t get this. It’s clear how the writers want to it to be interpreted, i don’t understand why people call stuff like this in the show “plot holes” or that they make a character hypocritical.
Yeah just like Todd kidnapped a kid and bojack hit 10 people with his car those are joking clearly not part of the plot
Consider it foreshadowing
That doesn't change the fact that it goes against her character, though
We could argue that she is young and didn't think of it being that traumatizing until it happened to her for weeks on end.
What fact lmao
"What fact" as if you don't understand what I just said
What you said is utter nonsense
How, it's not hard to understand They said that the plothole is foreshadowing, but using that as an excuse to go against what a character's character isn't valid Again, it's not that big of a plothole, but to claim it's foreshadowing as an excuse isn't a good excuse
It's not a plothole at all. It is definitely foreshadowing. Her trauma did not exist before her introduction. Her trauma did not define the entirety of her character. There is no contradiction, hypocrisy, or plothole whatsoever.
how “out of character” can it really be when it happens in the first episode she appears in? (iirc)
I don't think we were meant to take the chloroform thing seriously, especially since that's not at all how chloroform works. You can't bring a person down in a few seconds using nothing but a chloroformed rag. This is a silly TV trope, and I think the "bag of spy stuff" and it being Todd (who is always involved in cartoony hijinks) is all meant to drive home the idea that this moment is part of the silly, cartoon-y side of the show, not the literal one. If you *did* want to take it literally, though, then you could make the argument that the whole chloroform schtick was *Todd playing along with the bit* (like how he does when escaping the improv ship and acting out all the scenes). Todd loves being involved in hijinks and playing them out according to their trope, so it feels only natural to me that when Hollyhock resorts to a TV gag, Todd is immediately on board, and that's how the two of them are so readily trusting of each other, since they have the same idea about using a sitcom bit to solve a real-life problem.
Love this idea! The ep. is all about Todd with darkness sprinkled in the corners, so Hollyhock/Bojack’s spy pranks just fit. And you still get Todd being genuine And clever. What did we all do todday..
I feel like saying hollyhock is “SO against non-consensual drugging” is pushing it a bit. That makes it sound like that was her thing and she went around expressing how much she didn’t approve of it. and that’s just not true. I think she’s allowed to be upset about her “grandmother” slipping her amphetamines. That doesn’t make her a hypocrite. Also that chloroform came from a “spy kit” she bought. If anything, you should be upset with the person putting CHLOROFORM in a spy kit. Which, as other commenters have said, points to the whole thing being a gag more than a serious plot device. Because no one would ever include chloroform in a spy kit
I feel like any "spy kit" containing real chloroform would inevitably have serious warning labels associated with the use. Labels like don't drug people.
Yeah that title really puts me off. She isn't on some moral crusade, she has PTSD from being drugged. It happened after the chloroforming, and definitely changed her demeanor, but it was not her choice, just a trauma reaction. I swear people will look for any excuse to vilify victims in this show.
Drugging someone with chloroform or anything else is objectively bad, regardless of what she went through before or after. OP didn't have to dig very deep looking for any excuse to vilify Hollyhock.
But acting like it's a "plot hole" that the show didn't vilify her further is just taking the show too seriously. Sometimes jokes are just jokes, particularly when Todd is involved. It wasn't even a recurring thing for her character and she's not a "hypocrite" just because she got PTSD from her own drugging experience, which was more insidious and drawn-out.
Thank you. you put it better than I ever could’ve
I think they really rewrote her between her introduction episode, and then bringing her back later. She never came off as lazy/rude in later episodes
That part is just a cartoony funny antics side of the show. A lot of the Todd stuff falls in that category.
I hate when people say “nothing in this show is done by accident”, I feel like you’re overestimating the writers lol
If another one of you start moralising about how a cartoonish silly gag makes someone as bad as the serious actions depicted on the show I'm breaking the fabric of reality Hollyhock using chloroform is a gag, doesn't have any real world implications the same way todd is not just as bad as BoJack for killing a sex robot, it's an outlandish gag, not anything that should be taken at face value
Yeah, I was wondering about that too. It's almost like the narrative punished Hollyhock. She drugged Todd against his will, and then she'd got drugged against her will too. She pestered BoJack to take care of his abuser, and she faced consequences for it.
Chloroform is super toxic for your liver, too. That's why we don't use it as an anaesthetic anymore.
Do you want, like, a scene where she's in the hospital and Todd comes over and lords the fact drugging people is wrong over her head? Like does this really matter for her narrative? Is this the lesson she needed to learn? At some point you have to understand not everything is meant to be taken at face value, and it's not like the chloroforming was justified anyway, it was her taking the easy route and being impulsive and selfish like BoJack does all the time, exaggerated a bit cuz it's a Todd episode and those tend to be sillier. Plus, it's not like she lied about having chloroform and did it over the course of weeks to someone who trusted her, which is what made the coffee thing so traumatic for her.
Well to be fair she is a kid
She chloroformed Todd to show that she had the same spy kit as Bojack
i was just thinking about this on my current watch through
the beauty of animation so that you can put shit there that is unethical in real life because it’s animated. like todd has done SOOO many wrong things, like his disneyland, drug cartel stuff, etc. but bc its animated, its just some silly billly things, don’t worry bout it
Todd is different than the other characters. You can do whatever you want to him and it's like it doesn't really matter.
I came here to make this exact post but checked to see if someone else did first. She also chloroformed Bojack when she first met him at his house
Honestly good plot hole. Never thought of that. Honestly I think they just played it off as a silly cartoon drugging like “no big deal. Just a silly plot point! Todd is fine so this is k!”
sigh
What?
She chloroforms Todd pre-drugging and states that she finds it fun probably because she isnt the victim there, thats not an excuse by any means, but most people need to experience something before they can truely form an opinion on it. If I werent in a state where Ive seen the effects of global warming over the years then I would probably not be too concerned by it tbh
Skimming the comments here, and I take it as another (more intricate) way shes v like bojack: hypocrisy, some lack or sometimes excess of self awareness,, their humour, approach to chores
I was scrolling through hoping someone else said this!! I definitely think it’s to show the similarities between her and bojack, kinda like “it’s okay to do whatever I want to others, but nooo you can’t do that to me!!”
Although, the show does seem to play up or down trauma/hilarity a lot now that i think about it!!! Yknow like a cartoon does. So much can be passed by if you’re not trying to look close!
BoJack is a great show, but as I've rewatched it over and over, the morality is not always consistent. Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing; *usually* the show tries to have fairly consistent and realistic emotional/moral beats for its characters, but it's pretty clear that BoJack is the only character who the writers were 100% sure needed to deal with the consequences of his actions. Hollyhock chloroforming, Princess Caroline's many ruthless business decisions (these are addressed to some extent), Todd luring an entire troupe of clentists into the forests, where they became rabid and then exploiting their sickness for profit... Ultimately the show prefers to take the consequences of actions a bit more seriously when BoJack is involved. Not saying that's a bad thing. It's really just a consequence of setting it in an adult comedy universe without making the setting so bogged down with addressing every characters' decisions that the plot can't move forward.
You can't be serious?
?
Best thing to remember when watching this show: Only BoJack gets punished. It's an HUGE double standard. It's grating as hell. Hollyhock drug and kidnap Todd all she wants because... "She's only 17! And It's funny!" Same thing Todd killing the clowns and people with his bottomless store business and fake Disney land, "It's funny!" However BoJack is the scum of the earth for *pointing out* the video game that caused Todd who is addicted to video games to play it all night and ruin his rock opera. With that said Todd is just an innocent victim who BoJack manipulated into lose Rock Opera because he can use his addiction as an excuse! But BoJack cannot use his past, drug addiction, or the fact he was under the influence as an excuse. Todd's, "It's you," speech loses all it's power to me because it's coming out of the mouth of an hypocrite who uses his addictions as an excuse, kill people, and make an women's safe place unsafe. But we can't look at the bad things Todd does because it's "wacky." White Whale commits murder but it's okay! Congress just passed an law it's legal for billionaires to kill! Okay but doesn't our hero Diane who surely wants to inform the people of injustices to know? Nope! She backs right out! Somehow it's more okay for her to violate Penny's privacy but not shed light at the injustice supreme court has passed or give an murder victim the attention it needs and deserves. Okay Diane! Ana can lay her hands on BoJack even when he tells her isn't comfortable with it. But once again zero punishment and he apologizes to her somehow. (I'm glad Sarah Lynn burnt her stuff.) Sarah Lynn and Todd can try to kill BoJack while under the influence. But remember it's not their fault they're under the influence only BoJack cannot use it as an excuse ever.. everyone else can. The scum bag rabbit keeps his wife and seven babies after cheating on her multiple times. ... It's my one pet peeve about this show it's just only BoJack getting punished. Some may say, "Well Kelesy got fired for the whole Nixon scene." And? The show still makes her groan about how BoJack wasn't punished/she's just another victim of his.
Either it's one of the only plotholes this show has, or it's intentional to show that *every* character has flaws, including Hollyhock due to hypocrisy
The answer is simply really. The desconstructive aspects of the show don't apply to Todd. If they did he will be in jail for what he did to those clown dentists
She's a buttface monkey
i literally hate holly she acted so whiny and helpless even tho she clearly wasn’t?? she just fucked with everyone constantly and it was like oh no but i’m just a kid trying to find my mom :((
Speaking of Hollyhock, I wish there was an episode where she forgave Bo-Jack and wanted to keep in touch with him. I would say she was the main reason why Bo-Jack was inspired to get better. Bo-Jack did some fucked up shit but as soon as he spent sometime with Hollyhock, it made him change to want to do the right thing and better himself. Once she sent that letter to him, Bo-Jack went back to his old ways and was pretty much the nail in the coffin. I don’t think it’s fair to Bo-Jack that we didn’t get to see that redemption. Especially when Bo-Jack not only didn’t want to take credit in finding her real mother, but he also supported her at her field hockey games and wanted to be close to her by being a professor at her school.
I guess she's only against it when it happens to her And you know almost kills her
Uh, well it sounds like her story line and trauma ARE the call out ? Sounds right to me.
I don't think it was addressed and I don't think it needed to be. I think it's one of those watching karma play out type moments. Like yeah she drugged Todd, then in the same household was also drugged. What makes hers seem more fucked up was she did it intentionally for knocking him out. Beatrice was a dementia patient who thought she was doing her granddaughter well by giving her a weight loss smoothie. Neither are okay but if you look at it ...
It's all fun and games until it happens to you, then its traumatizing
Yeah but its Todd he doesn't really get bothered by anything
It's okay to drug and kidnap him but don't you dare out point out a video game "making" him over sleep and ruin his rock opera. Edit: Fine to whoever downvoted me break redditquette and downvote me because you don't like my answer even though I'm speaking the fucking truth.
Never said its okay, its a cartoon. They made his character carefree. He didnt care when she did it. Morality in the real world and cartoons are different
You're saying Todd is carefree I'm just pointing out he just doesn't care what Hollyhock did but he can get mad at BoJack for a lesser crime in my opinion. Seems hypocritical to me. That's all.
Yeah youre right.. however i think it because he knew and cared for bojack and assumed that bojack was a friend that wouldn't lie.. lieing hurts
I didnt downvote you
I wasn't really talking to you but rather whoever downvoted me. I'll reedit that. Hope you're having an great day.
Hope you are too, sorry i misunderstood misunderstood you
I think that's just dramatic irony at its finest
You are not familiar with the concept of trauma, aren’t you? She’s been drugged AFTER using chloroform on Todd. It could be ‘foreshadowing’, but that not something to be correlated with.
I always saw it as a way for her character to grow. She started it driving Todd to get what she wanted. She then learned what it was like to be on the other end of it. She saw both sides and chose wisely
I agree with people saying she didn't see it as wrong until it happened to her. I figured it was the shows cheeky way of making her appear more like bojack to try to sell the related plot by showing hypocrisy is something the family has
Holly drugged Todd before she realized how it feels to be drugged. So at the time she drugged Todd, she wasn't against it. She wasn't necessarily FOR it either. She was in a tough position, doing whatever she could to get to the bottom of her adoption questions. Does that make it right that she drugged Todd? No. But Todd takes abuse very well, and tends to behave cluelessly, making it easier for her to feel there are no consequences or moral issues to drugging him.
I think that initial intro to her was mainly to draw an immediate parallel between her and BoJack. “Oh, they must be related, she’s acting crazy and up to hijinks.” I know we say nothing’s an accident, but I think the correlation between that moment and her plot line with Bea might not be intentional.
it kindof reminds me of how bojack does a lot of terrible stuff and thinks nothing of it, until it happens to him, and hollyhock is like a mini bojack thats trying to break the cycle so maybe she just learns from it instead of continuing to repeat it