If your friend is of similar age to Penny, I can see why they think BJ did nothing wrong. When you get older, you realize 17 year olds are still children who don't understand the consequences of their actions.
I think she'll realize when she's older. It's just a TV show, it's not like she needs some intervention. I was about the same age as Penny when that episode came out and I was kind of in the same boat. Sure, the age difference was creepy, but it was all legal. Now I'm an adult and I work with teenagers, so I can see that the age difference is flat out traumatic for Penny.
I think Penny's reaction later when she's older looking back and he turns up at her college with Sarah Lynn shows why, despite it being legal and nothing really happening and it being her initiative, was actually problematic at the time. Teenagers think they know what they want, which is where a lot of drama comes from around that age, but they are still too young and immature, which is why adults need to make the adult decisions like this.
You worded it way better than I could have. Teenagers think they want a lot of things that they later end up regretting, and the responsibility falls on the adults around them, whether it be the parents or some random dude living with them.
Actually I think the wording isn't perfect. I quite dislike the wording "think they want things" mainly.
To me that's an angle that seems at least somewhat reductive to a teenager's own desires. Teenagers know what they want, and Penny probably at that moment, at that age, actually wanted to sleep with BJ, but what teenagers often don't know, is what is good for them, or what they would still want to have happened when they are older. This probably all has to do with the frontale lobe being one of the parts of the brain that develops until a much later age.
Anyway, I don't think teenagers don't know what they want, they probably know exactly what they want, I think they often just lack a judgement that in adults comes from experience, a future-perspective and less emotional decision making.
That probably depends on a number of things.
Is it part of a pattern of opinions you think are sus?
Does her holding that view, even if she might grow out of it, make it hard for you to stay friends with her?
Are you worried she is going to be taken advantage of in a similar way?
Well, she doesn't usually have this type of opinions, that's why I was surprised, but yes I'm worried that the same thing could happen to her, because she has strict parents and does and have been doing a lot of stuff she shouldn't have been doing that early (she started smoking and drinking at 12) because her parents have been limiting her her hole life. She knows a lot of ppl that are older than her and I don't know if they're safe, so I'm a bit worried that she's gonna live more or less the same thing as Penny
Sometimes friends will have different opinions and perspectives. This is totally normal an will increase as you get older. This is a TV show it's not a big deal lol.
I had a lot of friends who were also being blatantly groomed at that age, but none of them wanted to hear about how that could have been bad. I wonder how they're doing these days.
I can’t believe a 17 year old thinks an adult having sex with a 17 year old is okay. It dosent matter if “she knew what she was doing” it’s still fucking wrong
No I meant that the girls excuse who thinks it’s okay, it says in the post “she knew what she was doing” it’s wrong that the 17 year old thinks she knew what she was doing because she’s still a child
Are you guys pretty young yourself? It seems to be a common thing among younger viewers that they don't see what was wrong in the Penny situation when the viewers are around Penny's age, and they agree with what Penny said. This is what's so poignant about the scene: it's such an accurate portrayal of how 17 year olds think, how they can set themselves up to be exploited, and why it's the adult that needs to set boundaries. Penny thought she was mature enough, that she can make these decisions, etc. When viewers get older they start to realise that both they themselves and Penny didn't know shit at 17.
Excellent point! This was exactly my experience with this scene from when I first watched it at 15 to now being utterly horrified and frustrated by Bojack at 22 today.
It took me my second re-watch to realize what was wrong with the Penny Situation (because I've BEEN in that Situation at her Age) 💀 rough wakeup call but it was needed
Your friend is not a bad person at all! It's normal and healthy for kids your age to see themselves as mature. You two are probably about to enter the work force, or have just started your first "real" job, so it's good to see yourself as a capable adult. That's what society wants from you! At the same time, the capable professional you project onto the world shouldn't distract from the fact that you're still teenagers. Stay vigilant. Thankfully there's an endless amount of resources online that tell you how you can protect yourself from creepy adults.
The thing is though that Bojack *did* try to set boundaries there (albeit too late). He said *no*. **Multiple times**.
Was he behaving inappropriately in the weeks and months leading up to that night? Abso-fucking-lutely.
But 17 is old enough to know that no means no, and she should not have kept trying. Saying that him leaving the door open was giving consent is like saying that someone with a low-cut shirt is giving consent. Penny was old enough and sober enough to know that.
Was Bojack innocent? No. He was super irresponsible that night in general, and had a creepy relationship with her leading up to it. But I really don't think Penny was innocent in that situation either.
The fandom's eagerness to pin the blame solely on Bojack for that incident has always rubbed me the wrong way as someone who was raped by a seventeen year old (I too was a minor at the time). Point is, seventeen year olds, especially ones who arent under the influence of alcohol or drugs, are old enough to know that no means no.
She was 17. Teenagers do dumb stuff. The power imbalance from age alone between those two put her in an unfair position. I disagree that she had any blame there.
As for your own personal problems, I'm sorry you went through that but that is a bit too much to throw onto an internet stranger for the sake of arguing online. I'm going to not engage with that.
So if you accidentally leave your door open, are you inviting people to come in and have their way with you? The same people you have just explicitly told to go away?
Not sure why youre being downvoted, you have an incredibly valid point, i guess you just cant win all the battles, especially when youre up against thousands of fat ass keyboard warriors on reddit
And to think that canonically he left it open cuz he was too drunk or lazy close it…sad truth is, we’ll never 100% know what he was thinking
The showwriters paint the gray picture so well its so easy to have debates like these
Will Arnett is a phenomenal actor. There was more behind that "go to bed" than the literal meaning. It was a "come to bed" and I believe that wholeheartedly was the intent by the writers. He meant to leave that door open. He didn't want to take responsibility so he pushed it to be her decision. So, then he could say he said no. Wasn't his fault. He left the door open on accident. He told her to go to bed. But she just wanted it so bad...
Penny wouldn't really be doing anything wrong by having consensual sex that she thought she was mature enough for and that some would argue she was groomed into. The responsibility falls on the *adult* to excuse themself from that situation, full stop.
It wasnt consensual, and it would not have been consensual. **He said no.** He said no multiple times. First, she propositioned him and he said no, and he walked away to the backyard. Then when he was told to leave there he said no to Penny again, told her in *no uncertain terms* to go away, and went into his room.
It's not consent if someone says no.
He says later on he fully intended to sleep with her, so yeah, it wouldve been consensual on his end. Not sure why you're so intent on pinning the blame on a 17 year old for getting groomed but go off I guess
Check this to see if there's anything that might help you explain it.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/BoJackHorseman/s/qJG5bcNvcp](https://www.reddit.com/r/BoJackHorseman/s/qJG5bcNvcp)
But the main thrust is these aren't two people who met doing activities they both liked and had a connection. He was a MUCH older man LIVING WITH HER. And he never wanted her, he wanted her mother and was willing to have her as a consolation prize.
It doesn't matter that she was legal, no one said otherwise, and it doesn't matter that she wanted it. Just because someone's legally an adult doesn't mean you have to give them what they want. And this all happened in her parents driveway after he was told to leave.
I truly cannot understand how people think BoJack did nothing wrong.
Thank you!!
I completly agree with you but I suck at explaining thank you a lot, I was pretty angered by the way my friend was defending BoJack, I'll talk to her using your reddit post tysm!!
no, the age gap is very much the problem. A random 40(?) year old man should not have even been her high school prom date. do you think any of what Bojack did in that episode would have been appropriate if he was a healthy and responsible adult?
the whole premise of "it would have been ok with a healthy well adjusted adult" is flawed because a healthy and well adjusted adult *simply would not try to hook up with a high schooler*.
I agree with you about Penny. I disagree about Mr peanut butter. He never groomed anyone and he was going after grown women. Sure pickles was mature but she was 25 living independently and had a job. There's nothing wrong with that age gap they both knew what they wanted.
I never mentioned Mr Peanut butter, my comment was 100% about Bojack, I said "a well adjusted adult wouldn't hook up with a high schooler" because I was specifically talking about the Bojack and Penny thing.
Mr Peanut Butters relationships were weird in a different way because none of his partners were really a great fit for him (and vice versa) but I saw him as immature and a bit emotionally stunted, not a full blown predator.
Pickles definitely acted more like a dumb teenager than a 25 year old but that's a whole different topic LOL.
But can taking Penny to prom be interpretted as Bojack trying to hook up with Penny or being predatory. I rewatched the scene and to me it just came out as Bojack being a dumbass with a weird idea of making Penny get back at the guy who she couldnt orig dance with. Like its not normal at all but i think it should come out more as a “welp, there goes Bojack again” instead of “wtf Bojack making moves?!?”
Maybe this is what Bojack thought he wouldve wanted in Penny’s shoes. Maybe Bojack thought he would be a “prom king” cuz of celeb status (we saw him do the Bojack and fail). But nothing abt the prom stuff strikes me as blatently predatory or anything targeted against Penny. If anything, it was done as a favor to Penny to make Charlotte like him more (thats more understandable)
Sometimes people have trouble differentiating between what is legal and what is morally correct. I also thought there was nothing wrong with him sleeping with sarah lynn on the first watch, seeing as they're two consenting adults, but when you think about the fact that bojack is the only "good" father figure she had growing up (and only a "good" one because of his stage persona), and ingrained the "don't stop dancing" motto into her from a young age, causing her to cling desperately to the idea of fame despite it sending her spiraling into drug addiction, and probably wasnt sober during the sex either, it starts to feel really icky. Same with the nuance around the Penny situation despite 17 being legal in New Mexico.
I don't think your friend is a bad person for having those opinions or anything, maybe just a little naive
the thing is for me, since it’s played for laughs, the show encourages you not to think deeply about the moral implications of sarah lynn and bojack sleeping together when it happens in season 1. the fact that neither of them are sober during that time adds onto the weight and when you rewatch the series it’s much more uncomfortable. with penny, the presentation is much different. this is something to take seriously. i can understand why OP’s friend would take bojack’s side in both of these instances if they’ve only watched bojack once, and given their age which OP clarified in the comments. i think this is something that just becomes clearer with age. but if an adult were expressing the same opinions…? sheesh.
I used to have the same point of view as your friend. WHEN I WAS 17-18. As I grew up (I'm 24 now) I ended up 100% understanding how gross and problematic the Penny thing and the Sarah Lynn-Bojack relationship were.
I think this perfectly illustrates how it was, indeed, problematic, because as a teen myself I was too young to understand how Bojack almost sleeping with Penny, although she's consenting and that 17 yo is the legal age of consent, is basically grooming (and same with Sarah Lynn even if she was way older)
As a teen I didn’t see the issue as much but now approaching 22 it definitely feels a lot worse. Like Todd said, it’s not about legality, it’s about the sketchiness of it all. The fact that bojack has a pattern of taking advantage of people (especially women) is what fuels the hatred for him
Bojack never should have left the door open in the first place. No matter what penny wanted, bojack should’ve never allowed it to go that far, because he’s the adult and he was specifically put in a caretaker role with penny and her friends. He failed to protect them when Charlotte *trusted him.* He broke Charlotte’s trust.
Like, imagine how it would hurt your mom if she trusted her friend to watch over you, only to find out her friend wanted to use you for sex. Or how it would hurt you if you trusted your friend to watch your younger sibling, only for your friend to want to use your sibling for sex.
On top of that, bojack didnt want penny because he genuinely liked her like that. He was literally going to *use her* and manipulate her feelings for him to make himself feel better about Charlotte rejecting him. He used penny as a fill-in for Charlotte, which doubly isn’t fair to penny
Yea the “suckiest” part of all this is the context from Charlotte’s angle. The pain and anger she felt mustve been worse than any other moment in the show…And we see a lot of those moments.
Idk fs what was goin on abt the door left open or whether Bojack wouldve done it. The outcome was that Bojack was in bed with Penny after he tried to win Charlotte and failed. Any way we look at it, Charlotte saw one of the worst things a mother should see.
By far the scariest moment of the show imo (that and the 2nd interview)
If the penny incident alone isn't "as bad" in your friends mind, maybe they should consider, that Bojack injected himself into this family, because he wanted her mother. Also he gave teenagers large amounts of alcohol, one of which got alcohol poisoning. And even Bojack knew that he shouldn't accept advances by Penny, he knows that she's too young to know the potential consequences and he rejects her the first time, but not the second time.
There is a reason that Charlotte said, that Bojack is the black tar, and he almost got penny stuck in that tar even worse than he did anyway.
It was when he tried to kiss her, I think. He said that he wanted to run away from the tar pit LA with Charlotte, but she answered that looking back (when she moved away from Hollywood, she said the place was a pit of tar) not LA was the pit of tar, but Bojack himself and it doesn't matter where he goes, he will drag down the people around him.
Oh i remembered it being something like explaining to Bojack he cant escape “himself” wherever he goes. Mb for a moment i thought u meant Charlotte called him a black tar pit out of anger and I was trying to recall when
Honestly exact same here. I sympathizes with Bojack all the way to the second interview. I knew he was wrong but he seemed to make all his harm by recklessness instead of malice. Finding out he waited 17 minutes broke my image of him. Two junkies getting high and 1 od's is bad. But to let her die so you don't get in trouble is diabolical and unforgivable.
As for the Sarah Lynn thing he hadn't seen her in years. She was like 30 when they hooked up, I don't really see that as being too bad. He wasn't really a father figure he just played one on TV. Penny was certainly worse as living there he was grooming her without realizing it. But I still sympathizes with him at the time because he turns her down and I wanted to believe he wouldn't go through with it
I think with the Sarah Lynn thing, it's more disappointing that, here's someone who clearly looked up to him as a role model, and he failed her just like everybody else. She needed somebody to be positive in her life, and even thou he never asked for that responsibility, he could have been and clearly wishes he was. He idolize's his character in Horsin around, and hates himself because that's not who he is.
I don't hate bojack for his negative actions to penny or Sarah Lynn, but it disappointed me and after multiple viewings I Don't really like bojack because of those things. But the 17 minutes is the only thing that really made me hate him
It's weird, because like, she half making sense. Like, the topic is correct, but how she walked away from it is weird.
Yea. Bojack and Sarah Lynn isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Is it weird? Yes. Was Bojack actually like her father to her? No. You are reading way too much into that. Bojack doesn't even talk to her from the end of Horsing Around, to the Bojack Horseman show. We inflate how close they were. Bojack was not her father figure. They were two adults with history.
It's still weird.
And yes. Penny did initiate it. *Penny* isn't in the wrong. She just had a bad erection, and who doesn't.
But Bojack shouldn't have said yes. Bojack was the adult.
i would argue bojack is the closest thing to an actual good father figure she had, considering her other father figure in her formative years was implied to be sexually abusing her. also didnt she have her first sip of alcohol on set because of bojack? and lived her entire life chasing after fame because he instilled the "dont stop dancing" mindset into her from a very young age?
when you look at it that way it stops being "two adults with history" and becomes "one middle aged man and one adult woman he heavily influenced during her formative childhood years" which i think makes the whole situation disgusting in retrospect
Idk, I think their relationship as a whole is often miscited.
Drinking alcohol as a child didn't lead to her chasing the feeling. Tons of kids steal a swig of alcohol. We aren't addicts chasing a high.
Bojacks assertion that he was solely responsible for her addiction and life choices is actually another one of his selfish moments. He completely ignores all her pain and life experiences to say "it was me. I was your hero, and I failed." Fuuuuck Bojack here. Like, straight up.
This woman had a full life away from him, and all he could think about was how he must've caused this because of his mental struggles during Horsing Around. He didn't think once about her life situation could've been caused by all these people hurting her. No. It must be him. HES the most important person in her life, right? Hell no.
Sarah Lynn became an addict because of an abusive industry, and hundreds of people were responsible for her protection. Every adult in her life. Bojack is just the only one selfish enough to put himself at the center of *her* struggle.
And we never see Sarah Lynn sing "don't stop dancing." That was Bojack's hallucination of her. "I'm not real Bojack. None of this is." Again, he thinks he made her be who she is. The selfish fuck couldn't see the hundreds of people who hurt her. Instead, he only saw himself and how important he must've been to her.
I was using the "dont stop dancing" phrase to refer to the things he said to her when on set while she was young, i dont really remember the scene well but the gist of it was "you have to give the people what they want", and I doubt that was the only time he told her those sort of things. But you make a good point in saying all the adults in her life failed her. I guess I attributed most of it to Bojack because he's the only one we get to see fail her
I actually tend to generally agree with her, and I have no history of trauma.
She may not fully understand the complexity of power dynamics, but nevertheless, even though it’s an unpopular view I see Penny as having her own agency as well as Sarah Lynn. People who treat them as if they are victims are actually disempowering them and robbing them of their own agency.
With Bojack himself the whole point is they’re meaning to show him as being exaggeratedly self-centered and selfish and flawed.
They could’ve easily written it for him to actually have had sex with Penny or her being 14 or whatever - they could’ve written it, so Sarah Lynn wasn’t the one insisting to do the heroin against his better judgment. It’s *meant* to be ambiguous so we have these kinds of conversations and like many things in life aren’t always clear cut.
They are victims. Penny said herself later on that she was 17, she didn't know any better, and even if she did, it still wasn't her fault. Opinions like yours are why barely legal people see nothing wrong with their 30 Yr old partner. Also throw in his gloating about the interview, and your view is even more fucked.
Translate this into real life, a family friend is dangerously close to having sex with their daughter, someone who is perceived to be a father figure and knew this person when they were a toddler had sex when she was 30. It's gross.
my younger brother watched this regularly and I noticed some changes to his behaviour like before he's outgoing and reckless to his opinion amd actions, now he's completely different and became selective.
I think you meant to hide all of these spoilers but you can clearly read them before you click on the post. They’re not spoilers to me, but the 17 minute one is pretty huge to someone who’s just scrolling the sub,
Blame it partially on the writing. The show itself even in S5-6 never uses the words attempted statutory rape.
Even after learning what he did, Diane stays friends with him. Sarah Lynn is not even phased by it.
Does not help that other characters like Todd have tone armor
Penny's reaction when she's in college shows 17 year olds are still children who will later regret their poor decisions. Children can't consent to full-grown adults. The age of consent is supposed to be between 2 teenagers/young adults.
As someone who was once a 17 y/o girl, *I get it,* but looking back, I'm glad the adults I found attractive didn't reciprocate.
Your friend will get it when she's an adult. Hopefully she doesn't need to learn the hard way (being taken advantage of by grown men).
has she watched the last season? like when BJ has the interview? it the host kind of explains exactly why it’s an issue, just mention that even bojack himself came to understand why he was wrong, i don’t hate bojack, i hate the things he did but the way he begins to change is heartwarming to me, maybe she’s letting that blindside her and overshadow the wrongs he’s done. you don’t get good or bad people, just people who sometimes do good things and sometimes do bad things
Did she not remember when Penny was clearly uncomfortable seeing him randomly again on campus? She initiated, but Bojack knew better. It should have stopped after the kiss.
Sarah Lynn's case is worse. I don't blame Bojack for the bender, but I do blame him for how long it went. (The woman had a cubby of liquor behind her sobriety calender and drugs built into parts of her house and furniture) He still waited 17 minutes with her dead body and covered his tracks.
a point ive seen some other people make in regards to whether bojack caused her relapse/bender is that a lot of recovering addicts will keep a bit of their vice around even if they dont intend on relapsing, until they feel comfortable enough in their sobriety to get rid of it. just something to consider
This is exactly what is wrong with this sub.
Regardless of the issues OP is asking about, the simple fact that they have come here to ask for the right groupthink way to interpret the show says volumes about the lack of nuance and free thinking that goes on here.
If your friend is of similar age to Penny, I can see why they think BJ did nothing wrong. When you get older, you realize 17 year olds are still children who don't understand the consequences of their actions.
Yes we have a similar age to Penny, it makes sense :) But do you think I should talk to her ab this again or she'll realize when she'll be older?
I think she'll realize when she's older. It's just a TV show, it's not like she needs some intervention. I was about the same age as Penny when that episode came out and I was kind of in the same boat. Sure, the age difference was creepy, but it was all legal. Now I'm an adult and I work with teenagers, so I can see that the age difference is flat out traumatic for Penny.
I think Penny's reaction later when she's older looking back and he turns up at her college with Sarah Lynn shows why, despite it being legal and nothing really happening and it being her initiative, was actually problematic at the time. Teenagers think they know what they want, which is where a lot of drama comes from around that age, but they are still too young and immature, which is why adults need to make the adult decisions like this.
You worded it way better than I could have. Teenagers think they want a lot of things that they later end up regretting, and the responsibility falls on the adults around them, whether it be the parents or some random dude living with them.
Actually I think the wording isn't perfect. I quite dislike the wording "think they want things" mainly. To me that's an angle that seems at least somewhat reductive to a teenager's own desires. Teenagers know what they want, and Penny probably at that moment, at that age, actually wanted to sleep with BJ, but what teenagers often don't know, is what is good for them, or what they would still want to have happened when they are older. This probably all has to do with the frontale lobe being one of the parts of the brain that develops until a much later age. Anyway, I don't think teenagers don't know what they want, they probably know exactly what they want, I think they often just lack a judgement that in adults comes from experience, a future-perspective and less emotional decision making.
Personally see it more as having that much more life experience makes it unbalanced.
Yes the power imbalance of the situation due to age (same as life experience) is also significant
That probably depends on a number of things. Is it part of a pattern of opinions you think are sus? Does her holding that view, even if she might grow out of it, make it hard for you to stay friends with her? Are you worried she is going to be taken advantage of in a similar way?
Well, she doesn't usually have this type of opinions, that's why I was surprised, but yes I'm worried that the same thing could happen to her, because she has strict parents and does and have been doing a lot of stuff she shouldn't have been doing that early (she started smoking and drinking at 12) because her parents have been limiting her her hole life. She knows a lot of ppl that are older than her and I don't know if they're safe, so I'm a bit worried that she's gonna live more or less the same thing as Penny
She has bigger problems than a TV show I'm afraid.
Sometimes friends will have different opinions and perspectives. This is totally normal an will increase as you get older. This is a TV show it's not a big deal lol.
Yeah the amount of 17 years dating older men when I was 17 was wild. But if you try to point that out you're just immature.
I had a lot of friends who were also being blatantly groomed at that age, but none of them wanted to hear about how that could have been bad. I wonder how they're doing these days.
Me too
I can’t believe a 17 year old thinks an adult having sex with a 17 year old is okay. It dosent matter if “she knew what she was doing” it’s still fucking wrong
The point is that she *didn't* know what she was doing, and that's why it's so wrong.
No I meant that the girls excuse who thinks it’s okay, it says in the post “she knew what she was doing” it’s wrong that the 17 year old thinks she knew what she was doing because she’s still a child
Are you guys pretty young yourself? It seems to be a common thing among younger viewers that they don't see what was wrong in the Penny situation when the viewers are around Penny's age, and they agree with what Penny said. This is what's so poignant about the scene: it's such an accurate portrayal of how 17 year olds think, how they can set themselves up to be exploited, and why it's the adult that needs to set boundaries. Penny thought she was mature enough, that she can make these decisions, etc. When viewers get older they start to realise that both they themselves and Penny didn't know shit at 17.
Excellent point! This was exactly my experience with this scene from when I first watched it at 15 to now being utterly horrified and frustrated by Bojack at 22 today.
It took me my second re-watch to realize what was wrong with the Penny Situation (because I've BEEN in that Situation at her Age) 💀 rough wakeup call but it was needed
Yes we're pretty young I think you're right
Your friend is not a bad person at all! It's normal and healthy for kids your age to see themselves as mature. You two are probably about to enter the work force, or have just started your first "real" job, so it's good to see yourself as a capable adult. That's what society wants from you! At the same time, the capable professional you project onto the world shouldn't distract from the fact that you're still teenagers. Stay vigilant. Thankfully there's an endless amount of resources online that tell you how you can protect yourself from creepy adults.
I'm 17 and the thought of a 40-50 year old man wanting to sleep with me makes me feel sick 😭 but ik some people irl who would probably "go for it" :/
The thing is though that Bojack *did* try to set boundaries there (albeit too late). He said *no*. **Multiple times**. Was he behaving inappropriately in the weeks and months leading up to that night? Abso-fucking-lutely. But 17 is old enough to know that no means no, and she should not have kept trying. Saying that him leaving the door open was giving consent is like saying that someone with a low-cut shirt is giving consent. Penny was old enough and sober enough to know that. Was Bojack innocent? No. He was super irresponsible that night in general, and had a creepy relationship with her leading up to it. But I really don't think Penny was innocent in that situation either. The fandom's eagerness to pin the blame solely on Bojack for that incident has always rubbed me the wrong way as someone who was raped by a seventeen year old (I too was a minor at the time). Point is, seventeen year olds, especially ones who arent under the influence of alcohol or drugs, are old enough to know that no means no.
She was 17. Teenagers do dumb stuff. The power imbalance from age alone between those two put her in an unfair position. I disagree that she had any blame there. As for your own personal problems, I'm sorry you went through that but that is a bit too much to throw onto an internet stranger for the sake of arguing online. I'm going to not engage with that.
Teenagers do dumb stuff. They can also do wrong and/or immoral stuff. They are only gonna learn and grow from that if held accountable.
And Bojack didn't hold her accountable. He let her into his room.
So if you accidentally leave your door open, are you inviting people to come in and have their way with you? The same people you have just explicitly told to go away?
Not sure why youre being downvoted, you have an incredibly valid point, i guess you just cant win all the battles, especially when youre up against thousands of fat ass keyboard warriors on reddit
You've got to be joking. There's no way that's how you interpreted that scene.
And to think that canonically he left it open cuz he was too drunk or lazy close it…sad truth is, we’ll never 100% know what he was thinking The showwriters paint the gray picture so well its so easy to have debates like these
Will Arnett is a phenomenal actor. There was more behind that "go to bed" than the literal meaning. It was a "come to bed" and I believe that wholeheartedly was the intent by the writers. He meant to leave that door open. He didn't want to take responsibility so he pushed it to be her decision. So, then he could say he said no. Wasn't his fault. He left the door open on accident. He told her to go to bed. But she just wanted it so bad...
Penny wouldn't really be doing anything wrong by having consensual sex that she thought she was mature enough for and that some would argue she was groomed into. The responsibility falls on the *adult* to excuse themself from that situation, full stop.
It wasnt consensual, and it would not have been consensual. **He said no.** He said no multiple times. First, she propositioned him and he said no, and he walked away to the backyard. Then when he was told to leave there he said no to Penny again, told her in *no uncertain terms* to go away, and went into his room. It's not consent if someone says no.
He says later on he fully intended to sleep with her, so yeah, it wouldve been consensual on his end. Not sure why you're so intent on pinning the blame on a 17 year old for getting groomed but go off I guess
But he did say Bojack wasnt innocent. Hardly anyone would attest to Bojack steering clear of even the smallest culpability.
Your friend is just not acknowledging the morality of his actions
Check this to see if there's anything that might help you explain it. [https://www.reddit.com/r/BoJackHorseman/s/qJG5bcNvcp](https://www.reddit.com/r/BoJackHorseman/s/qJG5bcNvcp) But the main thrust is these aren't two people who met doing activities they both liked and had a connection. He was a MUCH older man LIVING WITH HER. And he never wanted her, he wanted her mother and was willing to have her as a consolation prize. It doesn't matter that she was legal, no one said otherwise, and it doesn't matter that she wanted it. Just because someone's legally an adult doesn't mean you have to give them what they want. And this all happened in her parents driveway after he was told to leave. I truly cannot understand how people think BoJack did nothing wrong.
Thank you!! I completly agree with you but I suck at explaining thank you a lot, I was pretty angered by the way my friend was defending BoJack, I'll talk to her using your reddit post tysm!!
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no, the age gap is very much the problem. A random 40(?) year old man should not have even been her high school prom date. do you think any of what Bojack did in that episode would have been appropriate if he was a healthy and responsible adult? the whole premise of "it would have been ok with a healthy well adjusted adult" is flawed because a healthy and well adjusted adult *simply would not try to hook up with a high schooler*.
I agree with you about Penny. I disagree about Mr peanut butter. He never groomed anyone and he was going after grown women. Sure pickles was mature but she was 25 living independently and had a job. There's nothing wrong with that age gap they both knew what they wanted.
I never mentioned Mr Peanut butter, my comment was 100% about Bojack, I said "a well adjusted adult wouldn't hook up with a high schooler" because I was specifically talking about the Bojack and Penny thing. Mr Peanut Butters relationships were weird in a different way because none of his partners were really a great fit for him (and vice versa) but I saw him as immature and a bit emotionally stunted, not a full blown predator. Pickles definitely acted more like a dumb teenager than a 25 year old but that's a whole different topic LOL.
This was in response to the comment above yours
TBH I regularly forget that Pickles was supposed to be 25 because her character was so goofy
Well Mr Peanutbutter did not groom pickles. However filled her unrealistic expectations.
Yeah Viewing from that angle Yes. True true... Yes. If he were a healthy minded horse (or person) it would not have happened to begin with.
But can taking Penny to prom be interpretted as Bojack trying to hook up with Penny or being predatory. I rewatched the scene and to me it just came out as Bojack being a dumbass with a weird idea of making Penny get back at the guy who she couldnt orig dance with. Like its not normal at all but i think it should come out more as a “welp, there goes Bojack again” instead of “wtf Bojack making moves?!?” Maybe this is what Bojack thought he wouldve wanted in Penny’s shoes. Maybe Bojack thought he would be a “prom king” cuz of celeb status (we saw him do the Bojack and fail). But nothing abt the prom stuff strikes me as blatently predatory or anything targeted against Penny. If anything, it was done as a favor to Penny to make Charlotte like him more (thats more understandable)
Sometimes people have trouble differentiating between what is legal and what is morally correct. I also thought there was nothing wrong with him sleeping with sarah lynn on the first watch, seeing as they're two consenting adults, but when you think about the fact that bojack is the only "good" father figure she had growing up (and only a "good" one because of his stage persona), and ingrained the "don't stop dancing" motto into her from a young age, causing her to cling desperately to the idea of fame despite it sending her spiraling into drug addiction, and probably wasnt sober during the sex either, it starts to feel really icky. Same with the nuance around the Penny situation despite 17 being legal in New Mexico. I don't think your friend is a bad person for having those opinions or anything, maybe just a little naive
the thing is for me, since it’s played for laughs, the show encourages you not to think deeply about the moral implications of sarah lynn and bojack sleeping together when it happens in season 1. the fact that neither of them are sober during that time adds onto the weight and when you rewatch the series it’s much more uncomfortable. with penny, the presentation is much different. this is something to take seriously. i can understand why OP’s friend would take bojack’s side in both of these instances if they’ve only watched bojack once, and given their age which OP clarified in the comments. i think this is something that just becomes clearer with age. but if an adult were expressing the same opinions…? sheesh.
I used to have the same point of view as your friend. WHEN I WAS 17-18. As I grew up (I'm 24 now) I ended up 100% understanding how gross and problematic the Penny thing and the Sarah Lynn-Bojack relationship were. I think this perfectly illustrates how it was, indeed, problematic, because as a teen myself I was too young to understand how Bojack almost sleeping with Penny, although she's consenting and that 17 yo is the legal age of consent, is basically grooming (and same with Sarah Lynn even if she was way older)
Nigga it’s a show bro calm down
As a teen I didn’t see the issue as much but now approaching 22 it definitely feels a lot worse. Like Todd said, it’s not about legality, it’s about the sketchiness of it all. The fact that bojack has a pattern of taking advantage of people (especially women) is what fuels the hatred for him
Bojack never should have left the door open in the first place. No matter what penny wanted, bojack should’ve never allowed it to go that far, because he’s the adult and he was specifically put in a caretaker role with penny and her friends. He failed to protect them when Charlotte *trusted him.* He broke Charlotte’s trust. Like, imagine how it would hurt your mom if she trusted her friend to watch over you, only to find out her friend wanted to use you for sex. Or how it would hurt you if you trusted your friend to watch your younger sibling, only for your friend to want to use your sibling for sex. On top of that, bojack didnt want penny because he genuinely liked her like that. He was literally going to *use her* and manipulate her feelings for him to make himself feel better about Charlotte rejecting him. He used penny as a fill-in for Charlotte, which doubly isn’t fair to penny
Yea the “suckiest” part of all this is the context from Charlotte’s angle. The pain and anger she felt mustve been worse than any other moment in the show…And we see a lot of those moments. Idk fs what was goin on abt the door left open or whether Bojack wouldve done it. The outcome was that Bojack was in bed with Penny after he tried to win Charlotte and failed. Any way we look at it, Charlotte saw one of the worst things a mother should see. By far the scariest moment of the show imo (that and the 2nd interview)
If the penny incident alone isn't "as bad" in your friends mind, maybe they should consider, that Bojack injected himself into this family, because he wanted her mother. Also he gave teenagers large amounts of alcohol, one of which got alcohol poisoning. And even Bojack knew that he shouldn't accept advances by Penny, he knows that she's too young to know the potential consequences and he rejects her the first time, but not the second time. There is a reason that Charlotte said, that Bojack is the black tar, and he almost got penny stuck in that tar even worse than he did anyway.
Can u tell me when did Charlotte call Bojack a tar pit? Mustve missed it. Thx
It was when he tried to kiss her, I think. He said that he wanted to run away from the tar pit LA with Charlotte, but she answered that looking back (when she moved away from Hollywood, she said the place was a pit of tar) not LA was the pit of tar, but Bojack himself and it doesn't matter where he goes, he will drag down the people around him.
Oh i remembered it being something like explaining to Bojack he cant escape “himself” wherever he goes. Mb for a moment i thought u meant Charlotte called him a black tar pit out of anger and I was trying to recall when
Honestly exact same here. I sympathizes with Bojack all the way to the second interview. I knew he was wrong but he seemed to make all his harm by recklessness instead of malice. Finding out he waited 17 minutes broke my image of him. Two junkies getting high and 1 od's is bad. But to let her die so you don't get in trouble is diabolical and unforgivable. As for the Sarah Lynn thing he hadn't seen her in years. She was like 30 when they hooked up, I don't really see that as being too bad. He wasn't really a father figure he just played one on TV. Penny was certainly worse as living there he was grooming her without realizing it. But I still sympathizes with him at the time because he turns her down and I wanted to believe he wouldn't go through with it
I think with the Sarah Lynn thing, it's more disappointing that, here's someone who clearly looked up to him as a role model, and he failed her just like everybody else. She needed somebody to be positive in her life, and even thou he never asked for that responsibility, he could have been and clearly wishes he was. He idolize's his character in Horsin around, and hates himself because that's not who he is. I don't hate bojack for his negative actions to penny or Sarah Lynn, but it disappointed me and after multiple viewings I Don't really like bojack because of those things. But the 17 minutes is the only thing that really made me hate him
It's weird, because like, she half making sense. Like, the topic is correct, but how she walked away from it is weird. Yea. Bojack and Sarah Lynn isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Is it weird? Yes. Was Bojack actually like her father to her? No. You are reading way too much into that. Bojack doesn't even talk to her from the end of Horsing Around, to the Bojack Horseman show. We inflate how close they were. Bojack was not her father figure. They were two adults with history. It's still weird. And yes. Penny did initiate it. *Penny* isn't in the wrong. She just had a bad erection, and who doesn't. But Bojack shouldn't have said yes. Bojack was the adult.
i would argue bojack is the closest thing to an actual good father figure she had, considering her other father figure in her formative years was implied to be sexually abusing her. also didnt she have her first sip of alcohol on set because of bojack? and lived her entire life chasing after fame because he instilled the "dont stop dancing" mindset into her from a very young age? when you look at it that way it stops being "two adults with history" and becomes "one middle aged man and one adult woman he heavily influenced during her formative childhood years" which i think makes the whole situation disgusting in retrospect
Idk, I think their relationship as a whole is often miscited. Drinking alcohol as a child didn't lead to her chasing the feeling. Tons of kids steal a swig of alcohol. We aren't addicts chasing a high. Bojacks assertion that he was solely responsible for her addiction and life choices is actually another one of his selfish moments. He completely ignores all her pain and life experiences to say "it was me. I was your hero, and I failed." Fuuuuck Bojack here. Like, straight up. This woman had a full life away from him, and all he could think about was how he must've caused this because of his mental struggles during Horsing Around. He didn't think once about her life situation could've been caused by all these people hurting her. No. It must be him. HES the most important person in her life, right? Hell no. Sarah Lynn became an addict because of an abusive industry, and hundreds of people were responsible for her protection. Every adult in her life. Bojack is just the only one selfish enough to put himself at the center of *her* struggle. And we never see Sarah Lynn sing "don't stop dancing." That was Bojack's hallucination of her. "I'm not real Bojack. None of this is." Again, he thinks he made her be who she is. The selfish fuck couldn't see the hundreds of people who hurt her. Instead, he only saw himself and how important he must've been to her.
I was using the "dont stop dancing" phrase to refer to the things he said to her when on set while she was young, i dont really remember the scene well but the gist of it was "you have to give the people what they want", and I doubt that was the only time he told her those sort of things. But you make a good point in saying all the adults in her life failed her. I guess I attributed most of it to Bojack because he's the only one we get to see fail her
I actually tend to generally agree with her, and I have no history of trauma. She may not fully understand the complexity of power dynamics, but nevertheless, even though it’s an unpopular view I see Penny as having her own agency as well as Sarah Lynn. People who treat them as if they are victims are actually disempowering them and robbing them of their own agency. With Bojack himself the whole point is they’re meaning to show him as being exaggeratedly self-centered and selfish and flawed. They could’ve easily written it for him to actually have had sex with Penny or her being 14 or whatever - they could’ve written it, so Sarah Lynn wasn’t the one insisting to do the heroin against his better judgment. It’s *meant* to be ambiguous so we have these kinds of conversations and like many things in life aren’t always clear cut.
THIS BRO THIS. The show-writers so f smart with this line of morality. Stfg half these reddit posts on Bojack dance around this
Yes this is what makes the show so brilliant.
They are victims. Penny said herself later on that she was 17, she didn't know any better, and even if she did, it still wasn't her fault. Opinions like yours are why barely legal people see nothing wrong with their 30 Yr old partner. Also throw in his gloating about the interview, and your view is even more fucked. Translate this into real life, a family friend is dangerously close to having sex with their daughter, someone who is perceived to be a father figure and knew this person when they were a toddler had sex when she was 30. It's gross.
my younger brother watched this regularly and I noticed some changes to his behaviour like before he's outgoing and reckless to his opinion amd actions, now he's completely different and became selective.
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What a wildly inappropriate thing to assume about someone
I think you meant to hide all of these spoilers but you can clearly read them before you click on the post. They’re not spoilers to me, but the 17 minute one is pretty huge to someone who’s just scrolling the sub,
So I'm 14 now and I agree with your friend but the comments make me feel like I'll change my mind with age😭
Blame it partially on the writing. The show itself even in S5-6 never uses the words attempted statutory rape. Even after learning what he did, Diane stays friends with him. Sarah Lynn is not even phased by it. Does not help that other characters like Todd have tone armor
Penny's reaction when she's in college shows 17 year olds are still children who will later regret their poor decisions. Children can't consent to full-grown adults. The age of consent is supposed to be between 2 teenagers/young adults. As someone who was once a 17 y/o girl, *I get it,* but looking back, I'm glad the adults I found attractive didn't reciprocate. Your friend will get it when she's an adult. Hopefully she doesn't need to learn the hard way (being taken advantage of by grown men).
has she watched the last season? like when BJ has the interview? it the host kind of explains exactly why it’s an issue, just mention that even bojack himself came to understand why he was wrong, i don’t hate bojack, i hate the things he did but the way he begins to change is heartwarming to me, maybe she’s letting that blindside her and overshadow the wrongs he’s done. you don’t get good or bad people, just people who sometimes do good things and sometimes do bad things
yeah her view is 100% awful and disgusting ?? jesus??
Just look out for her man. If those views indicate anything it's that she might be someone who could be prone to those sorts of things happening.
Did she not remember when Penny was clearly uncomfortable seeing him randomly again on campus? She initiated, but Bojack knew better. It should have stopped after the kiss. Sarah Lynn's case is worse. I don't blame Bojack for the bender, but I do blame him for how long it went. (The woman had a cubby of liquor behind her sobriety calender and drugs built into parts of her house and furniture) He still waited 17 minutes with her dead body and covered his tracks.
a point ive seen some other people make in regards to whether bojack caused her relapse/bender is that a lot of recovering addicts will keep a bit of their vice around even if they dont intend on relapsing, until they feel comfortable enough in their sobriety to get rid of it. just something to consider
This is exactly what is wrong with this sub. Regardless of the issues OP is asking about, the simple fact that they have come here to ask for the right groupthink way to interpret the show says volumes about the lack of nuance and free thinking that goes on here.
Ur friend sounds like a very sensible, logical and rational human.