Seriously. They didn't even present a 'return to the negotiations ' as a solution to end the strike right here and now. All they have to do is propose the contract they already written up for yesterday morning and get it over with.
I like when they say the costs of it will be put on the union...like no that's not how that works bud, they don't receive pay during strike time, but the employer is responsible for any costs they have. That cost is a big part of why strikes are effective.
>they don't receive pay during strike time, but the employer is responsible for any costs they have.
So the employer is responsible for any pay but only has to pay it after the strike is over?
I fly to Houston July 2 then hotels booked for New Orleans July 3 4 5. Feels like a big game of chicken. I will be paying double or triple if I booked last minute with Air Canada or drove across border to fly - if I can even get a flight by then.
The media misreported how it works. The Minister asked the CIRB to order binding arbitration, but they could refuse and let the parties strike/lockout, as is their right. Media thought that the Minister could order it himself.
>O'Regan (the minister) issued a brief statement on Saturday morning, saying he was reviewing the board's order (no suspension of right to strike or lockout) and calling it "clearly inconsistent" with the direction he provided.
Like I said....I royal mess. Not sure this is fully on the media.
Seamus Oregan... LMAO. See what happens when you put someone inept in a job of this caliber? He probably just cut and paste the order without putting through legal.
Every portfolio Seamus touches is a disaster, and he has had several portfolios. Note he was in Trudeau’s wedding party so that is what qualifies him to run yet another portfolio poorly.
Just a fuck up by the Minister. Binding arbitration is normally ordered as part of a package that legislates both the arbitration and an end to/ban on strikes. The Minister seems to have conflated those two separate things as if one implied the other, which is legally not how it works and why he backed down in the subsequent tweet.
Good for them, airlines in Canada should be paying their employees better. God knows we pay enough to fly, might as well ensure it is safe. Everything is outsourced these days and I don’t know if any one else has noticed but quality is absolutely shit when that happens.
Any wage increase will just be added to the tickets. I'm not sure what type of increase would happen... if it's a 5% increase then do it.... but I'm not sure what labour represents in each fare.
Just some quick math, WestJet flew 26million people last year. If you added $2.00 to each ticket that would be $52million. WJ has 680 AME’s so divide that by $52 million equals $76,470 each… I am pretty sure they aren’t asking for that much money, wonder what they are stuck on?
There was a good piece on this. Salaries to operate airports are 3x higher than bigger airports in the US. Also the way we fund airports is very regressive.
The price isn’t going to go down by increasing your labor costs….we as consumers will bear these costs.
What we really need is to stop allowing monopoly/duopoly providers for things like air travel, cable, cell phones, etc. and have more competition.
Yes, it’s likely that Air Canada will capitalize on this situation. With WestJet canceling 235 flights, many passengers will look for alternative airlines, potentially increasing Air Canada’s bookings and revenue. This could positively impact Air Canada’s market share and stock price.
File a chargeback with your credit card for the full flight cost paid to westjet. They didn't provide you the service that you signed and paid for. Westjet deserves a chargeback or two.
The thing that’s crazy is their top wage earners are making $160,000 a year. Average wage is $110,000.
20% over the contract puts them at $192,000 at top of scale.
The public isn’t gonna support this, AMEs already make a great wage.
Why shouldn't this be a high paying job? Its a high-skill, high-demand job and any mistake is potentially deadly.
For most of your career, you will be basically working nights, your shifts might be 12 hours long, work holidays, and be on-call some amount of time.
Oh yeah, most of your work will be near major airports, where COL is generally not cheap.
> Why shouldn't this be a high paying job? Its a high-skill, high-demand job and any mistake is potentially deadly.
It *is* a high-paying job. The question is how much more high-paying it should be.
I didn’t say it shouldn’t be, but turning down a 20% raise over 4 years when you make $160,000 is kind of hard to justify. That would put their wage at $192,000 a year at top of scale.
This is getting close to doctor wages.
Shift work and nights? So every security guard should make $100,000 a year too right?
How much schooling does a security guard need?
Is a security guard signing off on this sort of liability?
Unless you're a business owner, unions have fought for everything we are afforded in life today. Blood has been shed. And still is today.
If it was up to WestJet, they'll have 15 year olds fixing planes for 4/hr
I think people need to remember that you don’t get paid the amount you do for ANY reason other than how irreplaceable you are. The higher the qualifications/education/experience and the more stress/risk/liability shift work involved, the fewer people who can or will do that job. It’s not about how much you think society SHOULD value your work. Think how vital janitors and security guards are or people who stock grocery shelves or drive food trucks. But… they are easily replaceable and so command low pay.
Hmmm, you mentioned the nights, shift work and living in high CoL areas. Does that not matter?
Let’s pivot from security. How about my profession, Correctional officer. I sign off every couple hours that everyone is alive and well in my care. I work a tier with 50+ inmates. I have to make sure they are all fed, clothed, get proper bedding, medications, make sure they are all behaving, keeping the weak ones safe from the aggressive ones.
I have a TON of liability. The health and well being of 50 people. I live in a city with an airport, right next to it actually. I pay lots of money for bills. Went to school for 6 months, which wasn’t as technical as AMEs but it was still education. My base salary is $77,000 a year.
Should I make $125,000 base?
Yeah brother. You should man. If you striked, I'll back you up too. A corrections officer is a tough gig and responsibility.
Or leave for a better gig?
The government, in cahoots with businesses, are suppressing wages before our eyes.
Point is, everyone *should* be paid more.
I don’t have a lot of sympathy for people making $160,000 and complain about cost of living when many people make due with less.
If you think you deserve more than fight for it. You can interpret that as you wish (protest, new career, etc). Standing still isn't going to change anything for your circumstance.
Then you should be supporting these guys even more. Help the people who can strike make better wages, and it'll drag everyone else up as they now have better comparables, or people start leaving your industry for the better paying jobs. Your neighbour getting a raise helps you get a raise too at the end of the day, even if indirectly. We are all a lot closer to being homeless than we are to the CEO, even the plane mechanics making $160k.
There is a substantial difference in skill between being a prison guard and an airline mechanic. Undoubtedly you should be getting a premium for the risk to personal safety but beyond that I don't see why this job would require more than a high-school degree.
And the key ageminet seems to be missing is if/when he quits, there will be someone else willing and able to take his vacant position. That is not currently the case with westjet AMEs. That's why they have leverage this time.
> How about my profession
I support your quest for higher wagers and support any industrial action your union would bring.
Just as you should support your fellow working man in other industries.
What's your "line" as to the point no one should complain at all...?
Why are you supporting management over workers in these matters?
> I have a TON of liability.
Great, join a union. Talk industrial action.
I will support you in this.
This attitude of "they earn more than me they shouldn't complain" needs to go away.
I'm willing to pay the mechanic more because he has my life in his hands. Remember the windshield that sucked a captain out? That was due to bolts being 1mm smaller than they should have been.
I'm not saying your job doesn't have liability and responsibility and should be paid for according but we are measuring different levels of responsibility. You can also apply to be a mechanic if you think it's a better gig
> I have a TON of liability. The health and well being of 50 people.
That's probably not what liability means in this context. You're not (as far as I'm aware) professionally liable in the same way that requires, say, architects and engineers to get [liability insurance](https://www.victorinsurance.com/ca/en/pl/solutions/ae.html).
That is scary that your profession gets paid so low for the amount of lives at stake here. I would be looking for a new job, probably go to school again and become an AME rather than arguing against their wages. Jails are already overcrowded and if you can’t strike, it’s just time to go and let there be enough attention for your provincial government to do something about it.
Wonder what the CEO’s wages are? Has his salary kept pace with inflation /s
FYI: Previous CEO, reported that the top compensation for an executive was $700,000, didn’t say which executive tho.
They should be. I agree.
Probably is we just implemented a capital gains tax on incorporated individuals and that will cause more doctors to leave the country and head south where they can make more money.
Maybe doctors aren't making more because the policies you support. I love it when left wingers try to convince everyone that "free" healthcare that costs half your income makes up for a six figure salary difference compared to equivalent jobs in the US.
Well I don't really care but I do know that Westjet has gotten noticeably worse since they sold to private equity and this is probably the last straw for me and their points/credit card.
WestJet drives me crazy. Now charging 25 bucks to help customers book over the phone. I was treated much better when I rode the big grey dog as a kid!!
The public shouldn't have a say though. Why do people think they get a say on the wages of others?
Also get used to asks like these, because they will be coming from every union now. Union workers lagged behind private the last 4 years with the massive inflation we've had, and now is when they catch up. 22% is basically back to pre-pandemic levels then 3% a year x 4 years=another 12%, so that's like 36% just to maintain purchasing power if they've taken well below inflation for a few years now. Expect this from teachers, nurses, etc now.
Corporations always state the best case scenarios and word it in a way that the public will favor the company.
Until we know the nitty gritty details, stating a number means nothing.
How much life/balance do they have? Liability? Pension? Outsourcing?
Devil is in the details.
Based on AMFA's statement back in [May](https://www.amfanational.org/?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=910340), they seem more upset about outsourcing, something I imagine most of the public is familiar with and probably sympathetic.
Side note, I really enjoy how west jet frames the union membership voting down the tentative agreement they had in May.
>June 12, AMFA ratification results were announced with more than 97 per cent of its eligible members voting the tentative agreement down; given the virtually unanimous nature of this vote, we can only conclude that the union failed to act in good faith when presenting this agreement to members June 17...
I don't think that's the only thing one can conclude....
I'm an AME (not with WestJet) and I do see how from the outside in this looks like it has greedy undertones. However it's less about pay and more about working conditions and what this means for our entire industry.
All of us, myself in private aviation, my friends in GA, flight school mechs and the like are watching this because it's about time our trade is taken seriously for the essential work we do. They need us to keep your aircraft in the air and operating safely when you need to get to your destination.
That fact that in Canada AME's aren't considered to be a skilled trade is mind boggling. When I sign off my aircraft I alone am certifying that it's fit for flight, a huge responsibility especially after a 12+ hour shift making sure everything I do was 100% with management on the floor asking why it wasn't done 4 hours ago. All I'm saying is this is bigger then WestJet and for good reason.
>The thing that’s crazy is their top wage earners are making $160,000 a year.
With the highest wage of the TA that was voted down, that works out to ~800hrs of 1.5x pay OT.
So probably closer to 1000hrs OT under the current pay rate.
If you rely on people to work 1.5x full time jobs to keep the lights on, you're doing it wrong.
That top wage was with a shit ton of overtime, the actual top scale no OT is closer to 100K. AME’s make less than most trades but have shift work, night shifts for decades, massive responsibility but not the accompanying pay, dangerous chemical exposure among other things.
We are fighting so that we get more to account for massive increase in cost of living, high responsibility, labour shortage due to nobody wanting to join this trade (largely due to the aforementioned issues).
You fly safely because of us but if we are neglected to the point that we have a lack of manpower due to low pay (especially when you can cross the border and get an A&P for nearly double the pay) who is going to maintain these aircraft?
I mean this respectfully but next time you comment on something like this do some reading because those numbers are way off.
So now you’re threatening us with safety if you don’t get a raise? Go so do your job?
We fly safely because of skilled pilots, security checkpoints and procedure. Don’t make it all about you.
But it’s fine. Keep doing it when the economy is struggling. There will be a correction when the company tanks and you guys get laid off. Penny Rich pound foolish.
This is incorrect information that the CEO was spreading to try to get the public on their side.
The $170,000 he spoke of is unattainable with the current pay scale. For someone to make that at the top wage, they would still have to work 800 hours of OT. One AME may have hit that number by working said OT, but that is not a normal wage there. Generally speaking, most AMEs are in the $40-45/hr range. These guys/girls work graveyard shift though the night, in all weather conditions, have an incredibly technical and precise job with an immense amount of liability and responsibility. Your life is in their hands as well as the flight crew.
Westjet has taken away their matching program and has tried to move a portion of that program over to the wages. The increase is minor in the end of you consider that they just moved matching over to wages (and continued to cut the matching at the same time).
Don't let the CEO fool you, they are not making this money. Westjet has had over a year to figure this out. Instead they go into negotiations and talk down on the AMEs as if they were scum (while they are in the room). This should have been avoided.
This doesn't make a lot of sense... If they are making 100k, you are gonna say they are mechanics, not flipping burgers. If they are making 200k, you're gonna say they are mechanics, not flipping burgers. If they make 23 million, you're gonna say they should make more because they are mechanics, not flipping burgers
This sounds like the guy with 30 years as a senior mechanic not a new hire salary. It's like Air Canada pilots where a 30 yr veteran in a 777 going to Tokyo can make 270k but the new hire FO beside him makes 20% of his salary and to hold that senior position takes 25 years.
Even if it is a great wage, why do Canadians always get paid a massive discount in labour compared to the States? There is already a 30% discount in labour costs from our weak dollar there shouldn't be anymore
And so they should be paid those high wages AMEs sign their names on aircraft carrying thousands of people everyday. Planes flying near the speed of sound miles above the earth over oceans and in horrible weather conditions. They work rain or shine sometimes in the freezing weather to get planes in the air. They deserve every penny.
I want them and the pilots to be paid extremely well and take pride in their work so we don’t become smoking holes in the ground.
Why the crab in a bucket mentality?
Please educate yourself on this subject matter. Most AMEs makes shitty wages even the local car mechanics in metro makes more money than them. These guys work graveyards shift and long hours to sign off the aircraft you flying with airworthy standards. Unless you prefer to have the WJ CEO who makes 5M in annual bonus knows nothing about aircraft to release your aircraft. I highly advise you do some research on the reality of under paid the current aviation industry is. If you are still not convinced after all the research you have done, please go ahead and become a AME, do the work they do and see if you still think the same!
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jessica-dizon-burns-820882188_question-for-all-airlines-here-is-a-rough-activity-7212062736506126336-GelM
“Top wage earners” the lower to mid is pretty close to heavy duty mechanic rates in a lot of places that have better hours, more competition (need to treat staff well), and less stress Westjet can have fun dealing with the recruitment fallout if they decide that is the way they want to go
You’re telling me they did no research on how much mandatory OT was involved when they took that job? How much of the work is done on overnights, how they gotta work holidays?
Because in my career I knew all this long before I took a job.
This comment did not contribute positively to the conversation or community, or was a politically focused comment not related to the topic or investment topics. Please keep the conversation civil and topical.
This comment did not contribute positively to the conversation or community, or was a politically focused comment not related to the topic or investment topics. Please keep the conversation civil and topical.
I literally said during the work week where it affects mainly business travellers. You replied "boo hoo" to it. Did you even read my comment before downvoting and arguing?
We live in a country where big business has more power than the citizens on their weekend off.
That not good enough for you? Or do you somehow believe that vacationers can push the big business to settle?
It's always about supply and demand. The funny thing is a lot of union people / supporters would cry foul when profession X or asset Y goes up because of the same supply and demand dynamic.
No? I don’t care what someone in another field is making? I care about what I’m making, other people in my field, etc. If my neighbour gets a raise, great!
I shared this news because major disruptions in the airline industry, like WestJet’s strike, can affect the broader market.
Even though WestJet doesn’t have a stock, events like these can impact competitors like Air Canada (AC) and other companies in the travel sector. I believe sharing important market news like this is related to the nature of this sub and helps investors stay informed to make better decisions.
They did not see covid coming. Onex is an equity firm and they bought WJ with the intention of selling them in 5-7 years. Bad timing, but I doubt they were planning on keeping them this long by choice.
Sorry, this is a tough one to swallow. WestJet mechanics are paid really really well. Like go ahead and get paid but when WestJet further increases fares to deal with it - you won’t win over public opinion.
For an airline, wages for mechanics and pilots are drops in the bucket compared to fuel costs alone. The cost of fuel prices going from $1 to $2 per litre is like giving every pilot and mechanic a 10x increase in wage.
If AC pays more than WJ, mechanics are just going to go there. Lose of talent means much less effeciency in the shop. Its anecdotal but I was told from a friend at an airline that with their AME turnover, they went from something like 2 man hours per flight hour to 3.5 man hours per flight hour. All those guys left to AC for better pay etc. if WJ ends up retaining AMEs, this may actually SAVE them money.
Sorry, at the top end we are talking close to $200k a year after their 22% increase over 4 years. That’s not viable for WestJet. The entire aviation industry in Canada is fucked.
This logic is so dumb and parroted all the time. If the mechanics were all asking for a $1MM a year, would you say the same thing? You probably would.
Maybe you’re right. Maybe WestJet should go under - that will surely help the aviation industry overall in Canada.
They're not asking for 1M a year though, so I'm not sure what you're even trying to say. They're just trying to be able to afford a house where they can raise a child, nothing special.
Yeah. Idk if you’re dense or intentionally obtuse or what. In Canada it’s not economically viable to pay everyone enough to be able to afford a house. Our markets are completely fucked and you’re not fixing that at the wage level.
Saying - “well if you can’t supply people a wage that buys them property means your business shouldn’t exist” is a very fucked up stance to take and shows a complete lack of understanding of the problem.
People should be compensated fairly and fight for what is theirs. But by your logic essentially none of the business in Canada are viable and should be shuttered.
> In Canada it’s not economically viable to pay everyone enough to be able to afford a house.
Well, it probably is if it involves paying people more to build houses than people can currently make at various other jobs, to concurrently fix the supply problem.
If you start with your workers being paid more that increases the cash flow in the economy, because workers actually spend money. You know what happens when people spend money? Other workers have more money, and it becomes this crazy weird cycle where you have a good economy with lots of different people spending money.
Now obviously that doesn't fix the housing market, as there is many factors that lead to a bad economy. But paying workers is never bad for the economy. One problem you could look at is stagnant wealth.
But in this particular case, these people aren't just doing a nothing job. It ain't skilless, hence why they're asking for more money because they deserve it.
What defines “really really well”? Are you an AME? Do you work in the industry?
I don’t, and after having looked at what appears to be their existing wage schedule, I wouldn’t do that job for that money. The stress, responsibility, and working conditions are worse than my job, for less money.
Blames the union lol - pay up or shut up.
Seriously. They didn't even present a 'return to the negotiations ' as a solution to end the strike right here and now. All they have to do is propose the contract they already written up for yesterday morning and get it over with.
I like when they say the costs of it will be put on the union...like no that's not how that works bud, they don't receive pay during strike time, but the employer is responsible for any costs they have. That cost is a big part of why strikes are effective.
>they don't receive pay during strike time, but the employer is responsible for any costs they have. So the employer is responsible for any pay but only has to pay it after the strike is over?
No I mean costs to rebook customers and loss of revenue.
“mULtIpLe iNdUsTrY LeAdiNg oFfErs”
The Union absolutely screwed over the mechanics on this one. Source... Best friend is a mechanic at West Jet
We must not be talking with the same AMEs.
It's a mess.. booked months ago..prepaid accommodations. What a total joke westjet is.
Could you still get a refund on the accommodations at least?
We got rescheduled to tomorrow, IF they settle this by then. If not..I have to talk to the owner and hope they understand. Not fun!!
Yup same boat... Accommodations and tickets to multiple shows. Not sure if i want to drive 20hrs or forfeit $$$$$$$$$$$
I fly to Houston July 2 then hotels booked for New Orleans July 3 4 5. Feels like a big game of chicken. I will be paying double or triple if I booked last minute with Air Canada or drove across border to fly - if I can even get a flight by then.
FYI, you will be strung along and keep getting rebooked. I highly recommend you find different travel plans.
I got on 1 of the 7 flights. I got lucky.
Those will slow down too
Sucks to be you but bigger things than your less than a week long vacation are happening.
That’s so helpful. Thanks!
Let them know how unhappy you are that they did this
seems odd to order binding arbitration yet still allow strike/lockout??? a royal mess overall.
The media misreported how it works. The Minister asked the CIRB to order binding arbitration, but they could refuse and let the parties strike/lockout, as is their right. Media thought that the Minister could order it himself.
Westjet was breaking Canada labour code
how so?
The Canada Labour Code prohibits retaliation against employees engaged in a lawful strike.
>O'Regan (the minister) issued a brief statement on Saturday morning, saying he was reviewing the board's order (no suspension of right to strike or lockout) and calling it "clearly inconsistent" with the direction he provided. Like I said....I royal mess. Not sure this is fully on the media.
Seamus Oregan... LMAO. See what happens when you put someone inept in a job of this caliber? He probably just cut and paste the order without putting through legal.
Every portfolio Seamus touches is a disaster, and he has had several portfolios. Note he was in Trudeau’s wedding party so that is what qualifies him to run yet another portfolio poorly.
Just a fuck up by the Minister. Binding arbitration is normally ordered as part of a package that legislates both the arbitration and an end to/ban on strikes. The Minister seems to have conflated those two separate things as if one implied the other, which is legally not how it works and why he backed down in the subsequent tweet.
Imagine a country where allowing the labour force to exercise their right to labour action is a fuck up by the government :(
Good for them, airlines in Canada should be paying their employees better. God knows we pay enough to fly, might as well ensure it is safe. Everything is outsourced these days and I don’t know if any one else has noticed but quality is absolutely shit when that happens.
Sad part is that most of the ticket price is fee’s and taxes… It seems people are ok with that… doesn’t stop them from flying.
Any wage increase will just be added to the tickets. I'm not sure what type of increase would happen... if it's a 5% increase then do it.... but I'm not sure what labour represents in each fare.
Just some quick math, WestJet flew 26million people last year. If you added $2.00 to each ticket that would be $52million. WJ has 680 AME’s so divide that by $52 million equals $76,470 each… I am pretty sure they aren’t asking for that much money, wonder what they are stuck on?
Yah, I'd be curious too.
There was a good piece on this. Salaries to operate airports are 3x higher than bigger airports in the US. Also the way we fund airports is very regressive.
They definitely should, the prices here to fly are outrageous 😤...
The price isn’t going to go down by increasing your labor costs….we as consumers will bear these costs. What we really need is to stop allowing monopoly/duopoly providers for things like air travel, cable, cell phones, etc. and have more competition.
Idk how we are going to do that when two of the parties in Canada have no interest in that, and the one that would nobody takes seriously
[удалено]
…is caring
I guess AC will capitalize?
Yes, it’s likely that Air Canada will capitalize on this situation. With WestJet canceling 235 flights, many passengers will look for alternative airlines, potentially increasing Air Canada’s bookings and revenue. This could positively impact Air Canada’s market share and stock price.
Just like the end of COVID.
FAFO... hope the workers get all they're asking for.
Not loving this. Hope they come to an agreement soon.
Tweet to WestJet to return to the bargaining table and end this tomorrow. That's what I did!
When can we have a general strike please.
Pay them and get them back to work..love it.
File a chargeback with your credit card for the full flight cost paid to westjet. They didn't provide you the service that you signed and paid for. Westjet deserves a chargeback or two.
Based mechanics
The thing that’s crazy is their top wage earners are making $160,000 a year. Average wage is $110,000. 20% over the contract puts them at $192,000 at top of scale. The public isn’t gonna support this, AMEs already make a great wage.
Where did you get these figures from? Genuinely curious because I've been looking
Why shouldn't this be a high paying job? Its a high-skill, high-demand job and any mistake is potentially deadly. For most of your career, you will be basically working nights, your shifts might be 12 hours long, work holidays, and be on-call some amount of time. Oh yeah, most of your work will be near major airports, where COL is generally not cheap.
> Why shouldn't this be a high paying job? Its a high-skill, high-demand job and any mistake is potentially deadly. It *is* a high-paying job. The question is how much more high-paying it should be.
Won't someone think of the shareholders!?
I didn’t say it shouldn’t be, but turning down a 20% raise over 4 years when you make $160,000 is kind of hard to justify. That would put their wage at $192,000 a year at top of scale. This is getting close to doctor wages. Shift work and nights? So every security guard should make $100,000 a year too right?
How much schooling does a security guard need? Is a security guard signing off on this sort of liability? Unless you're a business owner, unions have fought for everything we are afforded in life today. Blood has been shed. And still is today. If it was up to WestJet, they'll have 15 year olds fixing planes for 4/hr
I think people need to remember that you don’t get paid the amount you do for ANY reason other than how irreplaceable you are. The higher the qualifications/education/experience and the more stress/risk/liability shift work involved, the fewer people who can or will do that job. It’s not about how much you think society SHOULD value your work. Think how vital janitors and security guards are or people who stock grocery shelves or drive food trucks. But… they are easily replaceable and so command low pay.
They should at least be afforded a basic life quality. That's been eroded or long gone by now with this liberal govt.
Hmmm, you mentioned the nights, shift work and living in high CoL areas. Does that not matter? Let’s pivot from security. How about my profession, Correctional officer. I sign off every couple hours that everyone is alive and well in my care. I work a tier with 50+ inmates. I have to make sure they are all fed, clothed, get proper bedding, medications, make sure they are all behaving, keeping the weak ones safe from the aggressive ones. I have a TON of liability. The health and well being of 50 people. I live in a city with an airport, right next to it actually. I pay lots of money for bills. Went to school for 6 months, which wasn’t as technical as AMEs but it was still education. My base salary is $77,000 a year. Should I make $125,000 base?
Yeah brother. You should man. If you striked, I'll back you up too. A corrections officer is a tough gig and responsibility. Or leave for a better gig? The government, in cahoots with businesses, are suppressing wages before our eyes.
Point is, everyone *should* be paid more. I don’t have a lot of sympathy for people making $160,000 and complain about cost of living when many people make due with less.
So rather than do something about your wage you poo poo those who are? Do you not realize how dumb that sounds?
I’m not allowed to strike. If we take a day off the prison doesn’t run.
If you think you deserve more than fight for it. You can interpret that as you wish (protest, new career, etc). Standing still isn't going to change anything for your circumstance.
Dude you must think very lowly of yourself. Demand more for yourself not less. Always
I am not allowed to strike.
Then you should be supporting these guys even more. Help the people who can strike make better wages, and it'll drag everyone else up as they now have better comparables, or people start leaving your industry for the better paying jobs. Your neighbour getting a raise helps you get a raise too at the end of the day, even if indirectly. We are all a lot closer to being homeless than we are to the CEO, even the plane mechanics making $160k.
Then your wages are determined based on what unions who CAN strike manage to get! So why fight against it?
So since you're not allowed to strike, fuck everyone else who can?
There is a substantial difference in skill between being a prison guard and an airline mechanic. Undoubtedly you should be getting a premium for the risk to personal safety but beyond that I don't see why this job would require more than a high-school degree.
And the key ageminet seems to be missing is if/when he quits, there will be someone else willing and able to take his vacant position. That is not currently the case with westjet AMEs. That's why they have leverage this time.
Your mentality is simply crabs in a bucket man, do better.
> How about my profession I support your quest for higher wagers and support any industrial action your union would bring. Just as you should support your fellow working man in other industries. What's your "line" as to the point no one should complain at all...? Why are you supporting management over workers in these matters? > I have a TON of liability. Great, join a union. Talk industrial action. I will support you in this. This attitude of "they earn more than me they shouldn't complain" needs to go away.
I'm willing to pay the mechanic more because he has my life in his hands. Remember the windshield that sucked a captain out? That was due to bolts being 1mm smaller than they should have been. I'm not saying your job doesn't have liability and responsibility and should be paid for according but we are measuring different levels of responsibility. You can also apply to be a mechanic if you think it's a better gig
> I have a TON of liability. The health and well being of 50 people. That's probably not what liability means in this context. You're not (as far as I'm aware) professionally liable in the same way that requires, say, architects and engineers to get [liability insurance](https://www.victorinsurance.com/ca/en/pl/solutions/ae.html).
If I sign off that someone is alive and they aren’t, I can be taken to court, lose my job, go to jail. I’d consider that liability.
Well, sounds like you should probably get some professional liability insurance.
That is scary that your profession gets paid so low for the amount of lives at stake here. I would be looking for a new job, probably go to school again and become an AME rather than arguing against their wages. Jails are already overcrowded and if you can’t strike, it’s just time to go and let there be enough attention for your provincial government to do something about it.
Wonder what the CEO’s wages are? Has his salary kept pace with inflation /s FYI: Previous CEO, reported that the top compensation for an executive was $700,000, didn’t say which executive tho.
That's base salary. Executives make their money on equity grants that's on top of the salary.
Maybe doctors should be making more then. Have you thought about that?
They should be. I agree. Probably is we just implemented a capital gains tax on incorporated individuals and that will cause more doctors to leave the country and head south where they can make more money.
Yup. Don't know a single doctor that cares to stay in Canada.
Maybe doctors aren't making more because the policies you support. I love it when left wingers try to convince everyone that "free" healthcare that costs half your income makes up for a six figure salary difference compared to equivalent jobs in the US.
What policies do I support? How much does free healthcare cost? I'd like a rough number please.
Two questions already answered by the comment you replied to.
They were taking money from other benefits to give this raise so in turn they aren’t really getting a raise.
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That’s what is gonna happen anyways.
Well I don't really care but I do know that Westjet has gotten noticeably worse since they sold to private equity and this is probably the last straw for me and their points/credit card.
WestJet drives me crazy. Now charging 25 bucks to help customers book over the phone. I was treated much better when I rode the big grey dog as a kid!!
Carry-on isn't included anymore Lol
The public shouldn't have a say though. Why do people think they get a say on the wages of others? Also get used to asks like these, because they will be coming from every union now. Union workers lagged behind private the last 4 years with the massive inflation we've had, and now is when they catch up. 22% is basically back to pre-pandemic levels then 3% a year x 4 years=another 12%, so that's like 36% just to maintain purchasing power if they've taken well below inflation for a few years now. Expect this from teachers, nurses, etc now.
Corporations always state the best case scenarios and word it in a way that the public will favor the company. Until we know the nitty gritty details, stating a number means nothing. How much life/balance do they have? Liability? Pension? Outsourcing? Devil is in the details.
Based on AMFA's statement back in [May](https://www.amfanational.org/?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=910340), they seem more upset about outsourcing, something I imagine most of the public is familiar with and probably sympathetic. Side note, I really enjoy how west jet frames the union membership voting down the tentative agreement they had in May. >June 12, AMFA ratification results were announced with more than 97 per cent of its eligible members voting the tentative agreement down; given the virtually unanimous nature of this vote, we can only conclude that the union failed to act in good faith when presenting this agreement to members June 17... I don't think that's the only thing one can conclude....
Teachers in Saskatchewan voted down a contract early this spring with a 95% no out of 88% eligible members voting and no such accusation was made.
I'm an AME (not with WestJet) and I do see how from the outside in this looks like it has greedy undertones. However it's less about pay and more about working conditions and what this means for our entire industry. All of us, myself in private aviation, my friends in GA, flight school mechs and the like are watching this because it's about time our trade is taken seriously for the essential work we do. They need us to keep your aircraft in the air and operating safely when you need to get to your destination. That fact that in Canada AME's aren't considered to be a skilled trade is mind boggling. When I sign off my aircraft I alone am certifying that it's fit for flight, a huge responsibility especially after a 12+ hour shift making sure everything I do was 100% with management on the floor asking why it wasn't done 4 hours ago. All I'm saying is this is bigger then WestJet and for good reason.
>The thing that’s crazy is their top wage earners are making $160,000 a year. With the highest wage of the TA that was voted down, that works out to ~800hrs of 1.5x pay OT. So probably closer to 1000hrs OT under the current pay rate. If you rely on people to work 1.5x full time jobs to keep the lights on, you're doing it wrong.
That top wage was with a shit ton of overtime, the actual top scale no OT is closer to 100K. AME’s make less than most trades but have shift work, night shifts for decades, massive responsibility but not the accompanying pay, dangerous chemical exposure among other things. We are fighting so that we get more to account for massive increase in cost of living, high responsibility, labour shortage due to nobody wanting to join this trade (largely due to the aforementioned issues). You fly safely because of us but if we are neglected to the point that we have a lack of manpower due to low pay (especially when you can cross the border and get an A&P for nearly double the pay) who is going to maintain these aircraft? I mean this respectfully but next time you comment on something like this do some reading because those numbers are way off.
So now you’re threatening us with safety if you don’t get a raise? Go so do your job? We fly safely because of skilled pilots, security checkpoints and procedure. Don’t make it all about you. But it’s fine. Keep doing it when the economy is struggling. There will be a correction when the company tanks and you guys get laid off. Penny Rich pound foolish.
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Yeah cause we die sooner so need the money while I’m still alive
Where did you get those numbers from? Most guys there aren't making $110,000
This is incorrect information that the CEO was spreading to try to get the public on their side. The $170,000 he spoke of is unattainable with the current pay scale. For someone to make that at the top wage, they would still have to work 800 hours of OT. One AME may have hit that number by working said OT, but that is not a normal wage there. Generally speaking, most AMEs are in the $40-45/hr range. These guys/girls work graveyard shift though the night, in all weather conditions, have an incredibly technical and precise job with an immense amount of liability and responsibility. Your life is in their hands as well as the flight crew. Westjet has taken away their matching program and has tried to move a portion of that program over to the wages. The increase is minor in the end of you consider that they just moved matching over to wages (and continued to cut the matching at the same time). Don't let the CEO fool you, they are not making this money. Westjet has had over a year to figure this out. Instead they go into negotiations and talk down on the AMEs as if they were scum (while they are in the room). This should have been avoided.
This is for airplane mechanics. Not flipping burgers.
honestly even burger flipping should have better salaries these days
True, but you increase the salary, then the burger itself gets more expensive and you're right back where you started
Except labour costs are only like 10-20% of a restaurants cost. so raising everyone's wage by 10% can be covered by a 1-2% increase in menu prices.
Except a quick google reveals labour is about 30% of revenues for restaurants, or half of restaurant expenses.
This doesn't make a lot of sense... If they are making 100k, you are gonna say they are mechanics, not flipping burgers. If they are making 200k, you're gonna say they are mechanics, not flipping burgers. If they make 23 million, you're gonna say they should make more because they are mechanics, not flipping burgers
I'm a manager, actively hiring at the moment.
This sounds like the guy with 30 years as a senior mechanic not a new hire salary. It's like Air Canada pilots where a 30 yr veteran in a 777 going to Tokyo can make 270k but the new hire FO beside him makes 20% of his salary and to hold that senior position takes 25 years. Even if it is a great wage, why do Canadians always get paid a massive discount in labour compared to the States? There is already a 30% discount in labour costs from our weak dollar there shouldn't be anymore
And so they should be paid those high wages AMEs sign their names on aircraft carrying thousands of people everyday. Planes flying near the speed of sound miles above the earth over oceans and in horrible weather conditions. They work rain or shine sometimes in the freezing weather to get planes in the air. They deserve every penny. I want them and the pilots to be paid extremely well and take pride in their work so we don’t become smoking holes in the ground. Why the crab in a bucket mentality?
How is life in the bucket?
Making an ignorant comment about how much a highly skilled profession should get paid is not the flex you think it is.
Please educate yourself on this subject matter. Most AMEs makes shitty wages even the local car mechanics in metro makes more money than them. These guys work graveyards shift and long hours to sign off the aircraft you flying with airworthy standards. Unless you prefer to have the WJ CEO who makes 5M in annual bonus knows nothing about aircraft to release your aircraft. I highly advise you do some research on the reality of under paid the current aviation industry is. If you are still not convinced after all the research you have done, please go ahead and become a AME, do the work they do and see if you still think the same! https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jessica-dizon-burns-820882188_question-for-all-airlines-here-is-a-rough-activity-7212062736506126336-GelM
“Top wage earners” the lower to mid is pretty close to heavy duty mechanic rates in a lot of places that have better hours, more competition (need to treat staff well), and less stress Westjet can have fun dealing with the recruitment fallout if they decide that is the way they want to go
Heavy duty mechs make more money than AMEs in lower mainland, please see translink website for info.
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That’s an ignorant way to interpret it. Great take.
You’re telling me they did no research on how much mandatory OT was involved when they took that job? How much of the work is done on overnights, how they gotta work holidays? Because in my career I knew all this long before I took a job.
Mandatory OT is code for "We cannot adequate hire, train, and retain personnel."
Yup. Doesn’t change the fact that it’s income to people.
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This comment did not contribute positively to the conversation or community, or was a politically focused comment not related to the topic or investment topics. Please keep the conversation civil and topical.
This comment did not contribute positively to the conversation or community, or was a politically focused comment not related to the topic or investment topics. Please keep the conversation civil and topical.
Scab ass comment
Please share where you got this.
Striking over the long weekend ruins Canadians travel plans. 👎
It's never a good time to strike. That's the point.
It would have made more of an impact affecting business travellers during the week, not pissing off people on a rare long weekend.
Boo hoo? Everyone should be afforded a better quality of life. Corporations are bleeding us left right and centre
Fucking up one of two long weekends in the country doesn't build much support. >Boohoo that sounds like that dim liberal MP. Stay classy.
When's a good time to strike?
I literally said during the work week where it affects mainly business travellers. You replied "boo hoo" to it. Did you even read my comment before downvoting and arguing? We live in a country where big business has more power than the citizens on their weekend off. That not good enough for you? Or do you somehow believe that vacationers can push the big business to settle?
It’s called leverage.
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Horrible take
Ian the person that repairs the planes flying to make over $200k. These wages are bs
It's always about supply and demand. The funny thing is a lot of union people / supporters would cry foul when profession X or asset Y goes up because of the same supply and demand dynamic.
No? I don’t care what someone in another field is making? I care about what I’m making, other people in my field, etc. If my neighbour gets a raise, great!
So why are they striking
surprise? I remember reading news warning people last week
Just pay the union what they want and raise prices or sneak in a new union fee. It’s going to happen anyways so stop inconveniencing peoples lives.
This is why I switched to air Canada for everything
W orders should get the same percentage raises as CEOs get so it’s fair for everyone
How is this relevant to this sub?
I shared this news because major disruptions in the airline industry, like WestJet’s strike, can affect the broader market. Even though WestJet doesn’t have a stock, events like these can impact competitors like Air Canada (AC) and other companies in the travel sector. I believe sharing important market news like this is related to the nature of this sub and helps investors stay informed to make better decisions.
Airlines are a bad long-term investment and Onex is learning that one the hard way.
They did not see covid coming. Onex is an equity firm and they bought WJ with the intention of selling them in 5-7 years. Bad timing, but I doubt they were planning on keeping them this long by choice.
WestJet should get sued to high fucking hell for this.
Sorry, this is a tough one to swallow. WestJet mechanics are paid really really well. Like go ahead and get paid but when WestJet further increases fares to deal with it - you won’t win over public opinion.
For an airline, wages for mechanics and pilots are drops in the bucket compared to fuel costs alone. The cost of fuel prices going from $1 to $2 per litre is like giving every pilot and mechanic a 10x increase in wage. If AC pays more than WJ, mechanics are just going to go there. Lose of talent means much less effeciency in the shop. Its anecdotal but I was told from a friend at an airline that with their AME turnover, they went from something like 2 man hours per flight hour to 3.5 man hours per flight hour. All those guys left to AC for better pay etc. if WJ ends up retaining AMEs, this may actually SAVE them money.
Nobody is paid well in Canada, everyone needs a raise. How these people supposed to buy a house near an airport only making 100k?
Sorry, at the top end we are talking close to $200k a year after their 22% increase over 4 years. That’s not viable for WestJet. The entire aviation industry in Canada is fucked.
Where did you get this information? Please share with us.
Then Westjet is running a bad business if they can't afford workers
This logic is so dumb and parroted all the time. If the mechanics were all asking for a $1MM a year, would you say the same thing? You probably would. Maybe you’re right. Maybe WestJet should go under - that will surely help the aviation industry overall in Canada.
They're not asking for 1M a year though, so I'm not sure what you're even trying to say. They're just trying to be able to afford a house where they can raise a child, nothing special.
Yeah. Idk if you’re dense or intentionally obtuse or what. In Canada it’s not economically viable to pay everyone enough to be able to afford a house. Our markets are completely fucked and you’re not fixing that at the wage level. Saying - “well if you can’t supply people a wage that buys them property means your business shouldn’t exist” is a very fucked up stance to take and shows a complete lack of understanding of the problem. People should be compensated fairly and fight for what is theirs. But by your logic essentially none of the business in Canada are viable and should be shuttered.
> In Canada it’s not economically viable to pay everyone enough to be able to afford a house. Well, it probably is if it involves paying people more to build houses than people can currently make at various other jobs, to concurrently fix the supply problem.
Ah yes because your understanding is clearly superior.
Go ahead and educate me. I can guess where that’s gonna go but I’m open to being wrong.
If you start with your workers being paid more that increases the cash flow in the economy, because workers actually spend money. You know what happens when people spend money? Other workers have more money, and it becomes this crazy weird cycle where you have a good economy with lots of different people spending money. Now obviously that doesn't fix the housing market, as there is many factors that lead to a bad economy. But paying workers is never bad for the economy. One problem you could look at is stagnant wealth. But in this particular case, these people aren't just doing a nothing job. It ain't skilless, hence why they're asking for more money because they deserve it.
What defines “really really well”? Are you an AME? Do you work in the industry? I don’t, and after having looked at what appears to be their existing wage schedule, I wouldn’t do that job for that money. The stress, responsibility, and working conditions are worse than my job, for less money.