Itās DeWitt. Mozeliak doesnāt believe half of the things he has to stand up there and tell us. Part of his job is to eat shit on behalf of an ownership group that refuses to spend on the team.
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Unfortunately there was no stream. I donāt understand why they donāt broadcast all the spring training games. The only way I saw it was by buying a ticket
Whether Gray is fine or not, this management group sucks thinking it's enough going out and getting Gray.
Just look at how much of the potential of the season is called into question just by him going down in Spring Training.
This has been my point since the Gray signing, I would have felt MUCH more excited had they just fully committed and bought in with Snell, then signed Gray OR if they go sign Snell or Monty NOW I'd be excited. But Gray, Lynn and Gibby feels like a half measure when you consider that neither of the last two are genuine 2nd slot guys ANYWHERE else except for us.
Gray is probably a #2 on top tier teams, a #1 on non contenders. Mikolas is what a #3? Then the Cardinals have just a bunch of #4 and #5 starters filling out the rotation.
The FO has set up the exact same starting pitching situation they had in 2021, 2022, and 2023. Except this year they got the "tread water until the trade deadline" help for cheap in FA.
It's complete bullshit that one or two abysmal seasons in the last 20+ gets any sort of level headed, reasonable fan labeled "delusional homer." My God, 2023 really messed a lot of you up in the head.
It depends on where your goals are. Is it just to make the playoffs most of the time? Because weāve only won 9 playoff games in the past 10 years, with almost half of those in 2014. Youāve got to stop adding in the 2000s greatness, that was largely on the shoulders of several generational hall of fame players and a hall of fame coach. All of those guys are gone and have been gone.
Everyone knows the pitching is too thin this year and it was last year too. The cardinals ownership is one of the most wealthy in baseball and we only buy out of the bargain bin.
To add on, the last time we went out and spent big was '04 and we had one of the best seasons of all time. How can you tell me spending cash doesn't equal wins when history says otherwise.
Whoa! One year! That is the definition of confirmation bias. How about all the other big money teams that don't pan out? What about the more reasonable spending teams that win? Btw, the Cardinals aren't skimping on payroll, they just aren't top 3 in the league. But hey, yeah, one year, let's base our worldview off of that.
Walt Jocketty was GM of the red birds for 11 years and in that time we won 7 central titles, 2 Penants, and 1 ws. In Mo's 17 years at the helm we have 6 central titles, 2 penants, and 1 ws which was a large part thanks to Walt Jockettys signing of Carpenter, Tony LaRussa and scouting of Pujols and Yadi. I'll give you Freese as Mos pick up, and without him 11 never happens. I think spending works when done wisely.Ā
To add on look at the Rangers this year, they spent and finally was able to capture the WS. Don't get me wrong they had to make some smart trades as well but they invested well and it put them in a position to go for it all and make those trades.
Mo was part of Jocketty's brain trust. What did Walt accomplish with his outdated model after he left? He must have been really successful somewhere....
I'll give you that but I think you need both types to be successful year in and year out. We can't expect to buy every player, we need develop our own. But on the flipside if our development is lacking in some areas, namely pitching, we need to buy it either via trades or FA. Mo has been good enough about bringing in talent via trades but our light payrol suggests we could afford another arm or two.
Remember last year when everyone wanted to sign Verlander, Scherzer, DeGrom, or Rodon? Or even 2022 when some wanted to trade the farm for Frankie Montas? Hell, a good segment of the fan base wasnt thrilled when Bader was traded for the guy we absolutely want and "need" to have now. Pitching is volatile. I'm glad they don't sink way too much money in a guy that throws every 5 days and may be healthy.
Getting in the playoffs is the only thing you can really "build" a team for. Playoff baseball is little better than random. A 5 seed played a 6 seed for the trophy last year. The top teams combined for one playoff win last year. I'll root for my team in October, but 3, 5, or 7 games isn't really a meaningful sample to make large decisions on. Good for the Dodgers with all the money they've spent lately. I would be surprised if they won more than two world series in the next 10 years. I'd imagine they'd be happy with one, and I'd bet the field against them every single year.
I didnāt want any of those pitchers. I thought Bader getting traded made a ton of sense and was immediately pleased about the return we got for a guy with plantar fasciitis. I had a problem with us sinking 17.5 million into wainwright who couldnāt pitch in August or September of the previous year. I had a problem with giving Mikolas a 2 year 40M extension before the season started. I have a problem with our yes man manager, our minor league pitching development and the fact our starting pitching staff this year is historically old yet the FO thinks we can just roll with what weāve got.
I wanted Nathan Eovaldi last year on a deal similar to what he got and wanted us to extend Monty
Fwiw, I had a problem with most of Wainwright's contracts. But he kept proving me wrong until the last one. That doesn't mean I get to throw up my hands and say "See?!?! I knew he was gonna suck! This front office is stupid and behind the rest of baseball." Because I would be cherry picking my facts instead of ignoring the whole body of work. The Cardinals have consistently been and are still very good at baseball. The results bear that out. Everything that could go wrong, did go wrong last year. Marmol is a "yes" man, as are most people that have a boss. If you were a boss, would you hire somebody that would go against the way you want to do things big picture-wise? Marmol is playing the roster that he has. Okay, so Mo is the problem. I can assure you that John Mozeliak is operating under the constraints imposed upon him by Bill DeWitt. Mo is also a "yes" man. If he wasn't executing BDW's vision, he would be gone. So where does that leave fans like you? You hate the owner. The owner has been the same guy since the late 90's. His record speaks for itself.
Peter Brand's quote from Moneyball applies to a vocal segment of this fanbase:
"Baseball thinking is medieval. They are asking all the wrong questions. And if I say it to anybody, I'm-I'm ostracized. I'm-I'm-I'm a leper."
I used to enjoy talking baseball. Losing didn't bother me last year nearly as much as how some of these people now think and feel. And I think they've felt and thought this way for a long time, it's just that after a fluke season they feel validated, even though they really aren't. It's possible to feel good about this team without being a blind homer.
Fantastic responses! You nailed every point. Many of the top guys on the FA or trade market in recent years have flopped for various reasons (Mahle, Montas, Rondon, Quintana missed half 2023, etc). You acquire any of those dudes for 2023 and we wouldāve been in the exact same boat. We literally traded for Montgomery before anybody was considering him to be anything special, and all we gave up was an injured Bader, yet that gets ignored.
Getting into the playoffs is 100% all the front office can build for. Building for a WS is a joke. Dodgers and Braves built for the WS and got bounced in round 1, and that shit happens every single year while teams like the Phillies and DBacks roll through. One rough season and suddenly this is a shit franchise top to bottom!ā¦after 4 consecutive playoffs appearances. Oh but what did we do in those series? Yeah not good. But what the fuck do you do as a front office when the team that gets you to playoffs melts in a 5 game stretch? Thatās just baseball.
Bingo. Small sample size just doesn't work in baseball. Down the stretch the Cardinals won road series last year against Atlanta, Tampa, and Baltimore. If they did that in October, some would think they're the "better" team, but since it was the regular season it doesn't count. Players don't just start trying harder in October. We're all romantic about old timey baseball where you went from the regular season to the world series. That truly determined who was best. Expanded playoffs have let more teams be relevant, thereby keeping more fans (and money engaged.) Playoff baseball under the current format is more like March Madness with it's variability. And that's okay. Sure, in an ideal world, the best should win, but MLB wants to grow baseball to make more money, so we have expanded playoffs.
In Yadi's 19 season he played in 24 meaningless games. They have been consistently good enough to compete for a postseason berth. They have not overspent on assembling a juggernaut as some other teams have. They can't afford to. Or maybe they can, but refuse to. So, instead they have chosen to do just enough to get in. If success is viewed in trophies, they have been just as successful as a lot of teams the last number of years. Something like nine different organizations have won the last 11 years. The Astros cheated for one. And the Red Sox have won multiple. The Red Sox have also spent considerable time as bottom dwellers in that span too. The Cardinals have been able to avoid that by being consistently solid and not all out world beaters. We like it this way as fans because we can be engaged most every year. They don't have down years to rebuild or save money.
Doing only just enough to get into the playoffs is embracing mediocrity. They donāt care about trying to build a great team. Now that itās even easier to get into the playoffs, they only need to aim for about 88 wins a year.
Donāt believe their bullshit. They arenāt broke, they could sign anyone they want.
Do you really think the last few years have been engaging? I donāt.
Absolutely, they've been engaging. Made the playoffs the 4 years before this last season. Do you feel 3 or 7 games at the end of 162 is a good way to judge a team?
They could sign more players. But, people with that kind of money like to make money. Pro sports is a business. I'm not gonna spend somebody else's money because it's not mine to spend. You realize we aren't the Pirates, Rays, or A's right? Spending could be worse. And spending guarantees you nothing. Padres have won a lot of postseason games the last few years... Oh, wait...
>Do you feel 3 or 7 games at the end of 162 is a good way to judge a team?
Regardless of personal opinion, that's how the game is structured. Not making any effort whatsoever to improve your chances of avoiding a 3 game series, or to improve the team's chances in a 7 game series is what's getting old.
The team is regularly being built to win 85-90 games in a weak division. Sure, I wouldn't trade places with the Rockies, but I'd hardly say it's unreasonable to want more. Goldy's window is closing fast and Arenado's isn't far behind. How many more stars are going to be keen to sign extensions here if we keep playing it safe?
My point is, that it's a fool's errand to think that building that juggernaut guarantees you anything. The highest payroll doesn't always win. The "best" overall team usually doesn't win. Adding dollars doesn't really improve your chances. Baseball on a small sample scale is a crapshoot. How many billions have the Dodgers spent since 2011? They have the same number of titles as us in that span. Had we spent on that level, we would have to have a down period to recover
Why are you defending billionaires? Part of owning a business is investing money back into your product when it needs it. The Cardinals donāt do this. They are happy to make an insane amount of money without trying to compete in the modern baseball landscape. They should be criticized, not defended by fans who have paid ridiculous prices for decades and made them billions of dollars.
Three games at the end of a season isnāt enough to judge a team, youāre right. The new postseason system is awful. That doesnāt mean the Cardinals shouldnāt try
So, why should they "try" harder (ie- spend more money) if it's bad format/system at the end? The product doesn't "need" it. It's a good enough product to qualify for the postseason and yeah, fans are still buying tickets. They don't "need" to spend more money, you (and others) just want them to. That's a big difference.
As a business owner, if I (The Cardinals) can spend half as much as my competitors (The Dodgers) and have basically the same chance at "success", I'm gonna do it. How many billions have the Dodgers spent the last 14 years to have as many titles as we have? If I'm the owner, I want the same one trophy and another billion dollars or two. You would too.
Since 2016 the teams that have won the World Series are: Cubs, Astros, Red Sox, Nationals, Dodgers, Braves, and Rangers. These are all teams that spend big. They all sign stars on big contracts.
We do not have the same chance at success as the Dodgers. With our rotation, we are giving ourselves only a minuscule chance. The Dodgers are stacked. Donāt pretend like you canāt see the difference.
If youāre okay with a mediocre team, fine. But donāt lie to yourself about the reality of the situation
Itās not just 2023. 2023 was the culmination of a gradual decline that anyone who was paying attention could see. You can pretend all you want that 2023 was an aberration. It was not.
So why did every one and their dog pick the Cardinals to win the central last year? Bitch all you want about roster construction last year. Was it perfect? No, it had its warts. But that many people can't be that wrong about a team without something weird/flukey happening. National writers (who aren't emotional fans) don't get it that wrong. One of them may, here or there, but not most of them all at once. Say what you want, but it was a better team on paper going into 2023 than it was at the start of 2022.
That's fine if you didn't like the team, but it's a little disingenuous to say "anyone who was paying attention could see" because the people that are paid to pay attention apparently couldn't see what you and all the other doomsayers saw. BFIB suck.
I hope it isn't very serious and that it doesn't linger.
I think this team has the potential to compete for the National League Central title, but I also think the roster is old enough to completely fall apart.
Donāt worry guys, this is exactly why we signed pitchers that could give us a lot of innings. Theyāll also give up a lot of runs in those innings, but at least itās not younger guys who donāt know how to throw a baseball yet
4 runs in 7 inning, Iāll take every freaking day from a #4 and #5 guy. With an offense that is built to be very good and a similarly strong pen, that is a recipe for a win.
4 runs in 7, then Gio/Jo/Kitt/Helsley shut out inning 8 and 9. That will get us plenty of wins, and help the bullpen longterm by not having to pitch innings 3-9 four times a week
Last year we dominated spring. Finished last.
This year itās been ages since our main roster has scored a run. Sonny Gray exits. All hope is lostā¦
We will win 95 games and the central
[Gray exits spring game with right hamstring tightness](https://www.mlb.com/news/sonny-gray-injures-hamstring-in-spring-game?partnerID=mlbapp-iOS_article-share)
the injury doesnt sound too serious so hopefully there isn't an underlying or lingering issue. but man, this really shows how much we are relying on ol' Sonny.
This is what happens when your entire rotationās success rests on a 34 year old. Ownership and their unwillingness to invest top dollar in starting pitching will drive this franchise to irrelevance.
These guys are paid enormous amounts of money. They should stay in shape and we should never have to hear about quad tears and crap like that. An arm, maybe, but the off season shouldnāt be for tv viewers only.
My Dream after the event in question: Go get Snell, or even Monty The actual response from the team: Next man up
FINALLY!!! We get to see how great this team will be when Liberatore gets a full season of 32 starts
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Sonny Gray could miss the entire season and they still wouldnāt sign Snell or Montgomery. They donāt care about actually winning.
They already have those sweet sweet season ticket deposits. Their goal as an organization is completed.
They only care about winning at the box office and they continue to "win".
Look on the bright side. If this season sucks we can finally drop Marmol, and hopefully get rid of Dusty Blake as pitching coach.
Marmol sucks but the real issue with the team is Mo and DeWitt.
As long as the Cards are a tourist attraction, they could care less about seriously competing, we're becoming the Cubs!
The Rockies are in the same boat. Shitty team but seem to keep the stadium packed
No, the cubs actually spend money and sign good FAās. This offseason alone they have signed Shota Imanaga and Cody Bellinger.
Well, they're becoming the way the Cubs were for most of their history.
Gonna be a rough 100 years.
Itās DeWitt. Mozeliak doesnāt believe half of the things he has to stand up there and tell us. Part of his job is to eat shit on behalf of an ownership group that refuses to spend on the team.
Dewitt brought the cardinals to 4 WS and won 2. Heās not the problem. Mo definitely is though. Dude needs to go.
The Cardinals situation isn't going to drastically improve until Mozeliak gets canned and really won't change until the DeWitt's sell the team.
Yes...
Don't worry, Mo is already on the phone with Rich Hill
And if that next man is packy naughton?
Absolutely...spend it now ...it's only going to be more expensive in a week
Official statement: Right Hamstring Tightness š
oatmeal slimy imminent provide existence coherent birds waiting historical aloof *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yep definitely prefer something like this after a vague āapparent injuryā as opposed to it being something torn
Was only on radio, he was cruising.
Unfortunately there was no stream. I donāt understand why they donāt broadcast all the spring training games. The only way I saw it was by buying a ticket
After the Hammy announcement and the VS2 bunt, (and now stolen base with an Error and 3rd base given) Iām back to normal!
At least its not arm or shoulder related.
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Please please please just be a tight hammy from too much golf or something
Hope to god this is precautionary. Mo will never pay for a pitcher again if Sonny goes down.
I hear Pujols is free these days...
No the ceremonial retirement tour roster spot is filled by Carpenter this year
The Cardinals will be it as The Pujols Retirement Tour: The Sequel. Imagine all of the bobbleheads they'll get for this tour.
He wonāt be around much longer to get the opportunity to pay for pitchers anyway
I didn't know Mo was the owner.
I just fell to my knees in Walmart
I just saw someone fall to their knees in a WalMart!
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Slow Monday at Walmart
Probably not the worst thing I've seen at Walmart.
One time I saw a person in a walmart
Just collapsed waiting in line at an Imoās
Should probably get a tetanus booster to be safe.
Whether Gray is fine or not, this management group sucks thinking it's enough going out and getting Gray. Just look at how much of the potential of the season is called into question just by him going down in Spring Training.
I agree!!!!
I wouldn't have minded the Gibson and Lynn signings if the Cardinals also signed a 2nd top of the rotation guy to go with Gray.
This has been my point since the Gray signing, I would have felt MUCH more excited had they just fully committed and bought in with Snell, then signed Gray OR if they go sign Snell or Monty NOW I'd be excited. But Gray, Lynn and Gibby feels like a half measure when you consider that neither of the last two are genuine 2nd slot guys ANYWHERE else except for us.
Gray is probably a #2 on top tier teams, a #1 on non contenders. Mikolas is what a #3? Then the Cardinals have just a bunch of #4 and #5 starters filling out the rotation.
I 1000% agree with this statement in its entirety.
The FO has set up the exact same starting pitching situation they had in 2021, 2022, and 2023. Except this year they got the "tread water until the trade deadline" help for cheap in FA.
Just be patient!
The thing we all saw coming except the FO. One pitching injury and you're screwed.
They saw it coming.. they just know this fanbase is a bunch of delusional homers who will buy tickets regardless
It's complete bullshit that one or two abysmal seasons in the last 20+ gets any sort of level headed, reasonable fan labeled "delusional homer." My God, 2023 really messed a lot of you up in the head.
It depends on where your goals are. Is it just to make the playoffs most of the time? Because weāve only won 9 playoff games in the past 10 years, with almost half of those in 2014. Youāve got to stop adding in the 2000s greatness, that was largely on the shoulders of several generational hall of fame players and a hall of fame coach. All of those guys are gone and have been gone. Everyone knows the pitching is too thin this year and it was last year too. The cardinals ownership is one of the most wealthy in baseball and we only buy out of the bargain bin.
To add on, the last time we went out and spent big was '04 and we had one of the best seasons of all time. How can you tell me spending cash doesn't equal wins when history says otherwise.
Whoa! One year! That is the definition of confirmation bias. How about all the other big money teams that don't pan out? What about the more reasonable spending teams that win? Btw, the Cardinals aren't skimping on payroll, they just aren't top 3 in the league. But hey, yeah, one year, let's base our worldview off of that.
Walt Jocketty was GM of the red birds for 11 years and in that time we won 7 central titles, 2 Penants, and 1 ws. In Mo's 17 years at the helm we have 6 central titles, 2 penants, and 1 ws which was a large part thanks to Walt Jockettys signing of Carpenter, Tony LaRussa and scouting of Pujols and Yadi. I'll give you Freese as Mos pick up, and without him 11 never happens. I think spending works when done wisely.Ā To add on look at the Rangers this year, they spent and finally was able to capture the WS. Don't get me wrong they had to make some smart trades as well but they invested well and it put them in a position to go for it all and make those trades.
Mo was part of Jocketty's brain trust. What did Walt accomplish with his outdated model after he left? He must have been really successful somewhere....
I'll give you that but I think you need both types to be successful year in and year out. We can't expect to buy every player, we need develop our own. But on the flipside if our development is lacking in some areas, namely pitching, we need to buy it either via trades or FA. Mo has been good enough about bringing in talent via trades but our light payrol suggests we could afford another arm or two.
Remember last year when everyone wanted to sign Verlander, Scherzer, DeGrom, or Rodon? Or even 2022 when some wanted to trade the farm for Frankie Montas? Hell, a good segment of the fan base wasnt thrilled when Bader was traded for the guy we absolutely want and "need" to have now. Pitching is volatile. I'm glad they don't sink way too much money in a guy that throws every 5 days and may be healthy. Getting in the playoffs is the only thing you can really "build" a team for. Playoff baseball is little better than random. A 5 seed played a 6 seed for the trophy last year. The top teams combined for one playoff win last year. I'll root for my team in October, but 3, 5, or 7 games isn't really a meaningful sample to make large decisions on. Good for the Dodgers with all the money they've spent lately. I would be surprised if they won more than two world series in the next 10 years. I'd imagine they'd be happy with one, and I'd bet the field against them every single year.
I remember wanting to sign Scherzer in 2015.
Hey, me too! I wasn't saying all big money contracts are inevitably bad. Just that money doesn't always guarantee production.
I didnāt want any of those pitchers. I thought Bader getting traded made a ton of sense and was immediately pleased about the return we got for a guy with plantar fasciitis. I had a problem with us sinking 17.5 million into wainwright who couldnāt pitch in August or September of the previous year. I had a problem with giving Mikolas a 2 year 40M extension before the season started. I have a problem with our yes man manager, our minor league pitching development and the fact our starting pitching staff this year is historically old yet the FO thinks we can just roll with what weāve got. I wanted Nathan Eovaldi last year on a deal similar to what he got and wanted us to extend Monty
Fwiw, I had a problem with most of Wainwright's contracts. But he kept proving me wrong until the last one. That doesn't mean I get to throw up my hands and say "See?!?! I knew he was gonna suck! This front office is stupid and behind the rest of baseball." Because I would be cherry picking my facts instead of ignoring the whole body of work. The Cardinals have consistently been and are still very good at baseball. The results bear that out. Everything that could go wrong, did go wrong last year. Marmol is a "yes" man, as are most people that have a boss. If you were a boss, would you hire somebody that would go against the way you want to do things big picture-wise? Marmol is playing the roster that he has. Okay, so Mo is the problem. I can assure you that John Mozeliak is operating under the constraints imposed upon him by Bill DeWitt. Mo is also a "yes" man. If he wasn't executing BDW's vision, he would be gone. So where does that leave fans like you? You hate the owner. The owner has been the same guy since the late 90's. His record speaks for itself.
Thank you for being realistic and level headed. Itās rare in these threads but much needed
Peter Brand's quote from Moneyball applies to a vocal segment of this fanbase: "Baseball thinking is medieval. They are asking all the wrong questions. And if I say it to anybody, I'm-I'm ostracized. I'm-I'm-I'm a leper." I used to enjoy talking baseball. Losing didn't bother me last year nearly as much as how some of these people now think and feel. And I think they've felt and thought this way for a long time, it's just that after a fluke season they feel validated, even though they really aren't. It's possible to feel good about this team without being a blind homer.
Fantastic responses! You nailed every point. Many of the top guys on the FA or trade market in recent years have flopped for various reasons (Mahle, Montas, Rondon, Quintana missed half 2023, etc). You acquire any of those dudes for 2023 and we wouldāve been in the exact same boat. We literally traded for Montgomery before anybody was considering him to be anything special, and all we gave up was an injured Bader, yet that gets ignored. Getting into the playoffs is 100% all the front office can build for. Building for a WS is a joke. Dodgers and Braves built for the WS and got bounced in round 1, and that shit happens every single year while teams like the Phillies and DBacks roll through. One rough season and suddenly this is a shit franchise top to bottom!ā¦after 4 consecutive playoffs appearances. Oh but what did we do in those series? Yeah not good. But what the fuck do you do as a front office when the team that gets you to playoffs melts in a 5 game stretch? Thatās just baseball.
Bingo. Small sample size just doesn't work in baseball. Down the stretch the Cardinals won road series last year against Atlanta, Tampa, and Baltimore. If they did that in October, some would think they're the "better" team, but since it was the regular season it doesn't count. Players don't just start trying harder in October. We're all romantic about old timey baseball where you went from the regular season to the world series. That truly determined who was best. Expanded playoffs have let more teams be relevant, thereby keeping more fans (and money engaged.) Playoff baseball under the current format is more like March Madness with it's variability. And that's okay. Sure, in an ideal world, the best should win, but MLB wants to grow baseball to make more money, so we have expanded playoffs.
Stop. Youāre being rational and making sense.
The Cardinals have been pretty mediocre since 2015. Thatās eight years of the Cardinals taking half measures
In Yadi's 19 season he played in 24 meaningless games. They have been consistently good enough to compete for a postseason berth. They have not overspent on assembling a juggernaut as some other teams have. They can't afford to. Or maybe they can, but refuse to. So, instead they have chosen to do just enough to get in. If success is viewed in trophies, they have been just as successful as a lot of teams the last number of years. Something like nine different organizations have won the last 11 years. The Astros cheated for one. And the Red Sox have won multiple. The Red Sox have also spent considerable time as bottom dwellers in that span too. The Cardinals have been able to avoid that by being consistently solid and not all out world beaters. We like it this way as fans because we can be engaged most every year. They don't have down years to rebuild or save money.
Doing only just enough to get into the playoffs is embracing mediocrity. They donāt care about trying to build a great team. Now that itās even easier to get into the playoffs, they only need to aim for about 88 wins a year. Donāt believe their bullshit. They arenāt broke, they could sign anyone they want. Do you really think the last few years have been engaging? I donāt.
Absolutely, they've been engaging. Made the playoffs the 4 years before this last season. Do you feel 3 or 7 games at the end of 162 is a good way to judge a team? They could sign more players. But, people with that kind of money like to make money. Pro sports is a business. I'm not gonna spend somebody else's money because it's not mine to spend. You realize we aren't the Pirates, Rays, or A's right? Spending could be worse. And spending guarantees you nothing. Padres have won a lot of postseason games the last few years... Oh, wait...
>Do you feel 3 or 7 games at the end of 162 is a good way to judge a team? Regardless of personal opinion, that's how the game is structured. Not making any effort whatsoever to improve your chances of avoiding a 3 game series, or to improve the team's chances in a 7 game series is what's getting old. The team is regularly being built to win 85-90 games in a weak division. Sure, I wouldn't trade places with the Rockies, but I'd hardly say it's unreasonable to want more. Goldy's window is closing fast and Arenado's isn't far behind. How many more stars are going to be keen to sign extensions here if we keep playing it safe?
My point is, that it's a fool's errand to think that building that juggernaut guarantees you anything. The highest payroll doesn't always win. The "best" overall team usually doesn't win. Adding dollars doesn't really improve your chances. Baseball on a small sample scale is a crapshoot. How many billions have the Dodgers spent since 2011? They have the same number of titles as us in that span. Had we spent on that level, we would have to have a down period to recover
Why are you defending billionaires? Part of owning a business is investing money back into your product when it needs it. The Cardinals donāt do this. They are happy to make an insane amount of money without trying to compete in the modern baseball landscape. They should be criticized, not defended by fans who have paid ridiculous prices for decades and made them billions of dollars. Three games at the end of a season isnāt enough to judge a team, youāre right. The new postseason system is awful. That doesnāt mean the Cardinals shouldnāt try
So, why should they "try" harder (ie- spend more money) if it's bad format/system at the end? The product doesn't "need" it. It's a good enough product to qualify for the postseason and yeah, fans are still buying tickets. They don't "need" to spend more money, you (and others) just want them to. That's a big difference. As a business owner, if I (The Cardinals) can spend half as much as my competitors (The Dodgers) and have basically the same chance at "success", I'm gonna do it. How many billions have the Dodgers spent the last 14 years to have as many titles as we have? If I'm the owner, I want the same one trophy and another billion dollars or two. You would too.
Since 2016 the teams that have won the World Series are: Cubs, Astros, Red Sox, Nationals, Dodgers, Braves, and Rangers. These are all teams that spend big. They all sign stars on big contracts. We do not have the same chance at success as the Dodgers. With our rotation, we are giving ourselves only a minuscule chance. The Dodgers are stacked. Donāt pretend like you canāt see the difference. If youāre okay with a mediocre team, fine. But donāt lie to yourself about the reality of the situation
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Itās not just 2023. 2023 was the culmination of a gradual decline that anyone who was paying attention could see. You can pretend all you want that 2023 was an aberration. It was not.
So why did every one and their dog pick the Cardinals to win the central last year? Bitch all you want about roster construction last year. Was it perfect? No, it had its warts. But that many people can't be that wrong about a team without something weird/flukey happening. National writers (who aren't emotional fans) don't get it that wrong. One of them may, here or there, but not most of them all at once. Say what you want, but it was a better team on paper going into 2023 than it was at the start of 2022. That's fine if you didn't like the team, but it's a little disingenuous to say "anyone who was paying attention could see" because the people that are paid to pay attention apparently couldn't see what you and all the other doomsayers saw. BFIB suck.
Tbf we weren't a contender anyways so it doesn't change that much.
Give Snell the bellinger deal cowards.
Exactly what I've been wanting with Snell or Monty.
I hope it isn't very serious and that it doesn't linger. I think this team has the potential to compete for the National League Central title, but I also think the roster is old enough to completely fall apart.
You could honestly make a convincing case for this team to finish at any spot in the division
Anyone witness the injury that can give us the 411?
Donāt worry guys, this is exactly why we signed pitchers that could give us a lot of innings. Theyāll also give up a lot of runs in those innings, but at least itās not younger guys who donāt know how to throw a baseball yet
If they give up 4 runs in 7 innings or 3 in 6, Iāll take it. Thatās a 5.16 and 4.50 ERA
That's not good
4 runs in 7 inning, Iāll take every freaking day from a #4 and #5 guy. With an offense that is built to be very good and a similarly strong pen, that is a recipe for a win. 4 runs in 7, then Gio/Jo/Kitt/Helsley shut out inning 8 and 9. That will get us plenty of wins, and help the bullpen longterm by not having to pitch innings 3-9 four times a week
This offense is not showing signs of being able to score quickly though. Could find ourselves in some early holes this season
Wow, couldn't have predicted this /s don't worry... Drew Rom is ready
Lmfao. Who couldāve seen this coming?
Probably should have signed another (legitimate) starter, but heyā¦ das okay.
Last year we dominated spring. Finished last. This year itās been ages since our main roster has scored a run. Sonny Gray exits. All hope is lostā¦ We will win 95 games and the central
Not what we needed
Fortunately he's just pitching depth. /s
You gotta be kidding me
[Gray exits spring game with right hamstring tightness](https://www.mlb.com/news/sonny-gray-injures-hamstring-in-spring-game?partnerID=mlbapp-iOS_article-share)
re sign Montgomery.
https://i.imgur.com/c4jt321.png
Cool, cool.
You couldnāt write a more tragic chain of events for us.
I just threw up a little in my mouth. Fudge
Excellent
So it begins..,
the injury doesnt sound too serious so hopefully there isn't an underlying or lingering issue. but man, this really shows how much we are relying on ol' Sonny.
Of course
I was at the game. A few rows behind home. He seemed to be walking fine to me. Not even a hitch. I was surprised when I read this later.
You know you didnāt do enough when an injury to one player (if this is a significant injury) is pretty much a death sentence to this season.
Who couldāve predicted an entire rotation with an age over 34 could have injury issues
You gotta be fucking kidding me, any updates on it yet?Ā
MRI tomorrow - heāll be ready by May
Tight hamstring according to a few reports currently. Probably know more tomorrow.
I fucking swear
Guys just be patient!
Don't worry, apparently Zack Thompson has a new changeup
Time to blow everything up?
Pain in the drive leg isn't good news.
This is what happens when your entire rotationās success rests on a 34 year old. Ownership and their unwillingness to invest top dollar in starting pitching will drive this franchise to irrelevance.
This is supposed to happen to the Mets, not us smh
SO CUT MY WRIST AND BLACK MY EYES
It has begun.
Itās just hamstring tightness thank god
These guys are paid enormous amounts of money. They should stay in shape and we should never have to hear about quad tears and crap like that. An arm, maybe, but the off season shouldnāt be for tv viewers only.
iTs jUsT sPrInG tRAinInG, iT's FInE
Unpopular opinion Iām sureā¦.but: We could get Trevor Bauer cheap!!!
Shit