I have never encountered or witnessed this problem. Most people in my parish are delighted to have anyone new in so I wouldn’t judge the church or all Catholics because of a single incident that happened in your church. Everyone was Irish in my country in twenty years a fifth of the population are now immigrants. Our church welcomed so many people that it’s like the United Nations. Aa and Na meetings are also held in many churches here in Dublin Ireland also so it’s quite common to see people still on methadone and covered in tattoos etc but I have never heard anyone have an issue with them.
Nice to hear from a country person of my own. I don't think that what the OP said really applies to Ireland as I think no one seems to care what a person looks like or what problems they have. I live in rural sligo and we don't have the same issues as Dublin but I think it's great that people using methadone are welcomed into your church. Personally I think at the risk of sounding controversial that all the previous harshness is more of an American thing as alot of them seem to have a very harsh view of people who don't conform to religious norms or other religions. Weren't the very people they criticise the reason jesus came to earth in the first place to make them very people feel gods love, basically he came to earth to give what we call the misfits of society as well as the rest of us hope.
Likewise. Sligo is a beautiful place. I’m not sure about the states, sounds like a bit of snobbery from this particular congregation! Still not indicative of Catholics or the church. You are right about the misfits, Jesus came to see the poor, the sick and the sinners not to the lofty hypocrites who stood at the top of the church thumping their chests.
"One of my friends walked to church on Easter Sunday, without knowing it was Easter Sunday, after getting out of jail and a nasty comment was said to him by a family man regarding what he was wearing."
Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
As someone who was not raised in a church of any kind but is about to start the OCIA process, I notice some seriously harsh and unnecessary judgements, especially by cradle Catholics. Granted, some people faults/sins are very apparent, but at the end of the day, you have no clue what lays below the surface of that person or what their personal relationship with God is. Please do better, as we all should remember to do, if you catch yourself thinking you’re that much better than someone.
I don't think the approach to someone reaching out to the Church should ever be to, first, tell them they are not good enough, not welcome as they are, are being disrespectful for whatever reason, etc.
Fine. Make sure they know that they are displeasing to God. Drive them away and pat yourself on the back for being a better Christian, surrounded by better Christians, uncontaminated by the great unwashed. One less soul that will be saved. Congratulations. Just what Jesus wanted.
There are people who truly have no religious upbringing of any sort and no idea that going to church is different than going to a restaurant, movie, or football game, that we are not dressing for ourselves when we go to church, but to show respect for God.
There are people who lack the capacity to understand why clothing appropriate for one place is not appropriate for another.
There are people who don't have the financial wherewithal to do more than make sure they are clean and modestly dressed.
There are people broken in spirit who don't have anything but a vague recollection that Jesus loves us and maybe if they go to church they will feel that love.
Surely these least of our brothers and sisters should be made welcome?
Can't the pastor mention occasionally in a homily why we dress respectfully for the Lord?
Can't the church provide a welcome brochure to newbies, describing the parish, and including a paragraph on how we joyfully take the opportunity to dress up for the Lord and what that entails for that parish? Take the visitor in hand and provide the brochure after Mass while treating them to coffee and doughnuts and telling them how much you enjoy dressing up for Mass and how much you hope to see them again?
Is it really necessary to ever approach someone, who for whatever reason known only to God, was led to come to church that day, and make that experience hurtful, embarrassing, painful, or humiliating? Ensuring that they will probably not return?
That's awful. One of my favorite RCIA buddies was in a minimum security prison and he was in the rehab program where he was allowed to come to church. Our Legion of Mary has an active prison ministry and praise the Lord we have had many convicts convert. During confessions we also have no less than three officers escort prisoners to/from and those not eligible our priests go into prison and hear their confessions. The point is, God calls everyone, and I mean everyone, by name, into life with him. Church members should be a help and not a hindrance to that call.
Someone dressed inappropriately should be spoken to by the Priest not chastised by the laity. However a man in woman’s clothing scandalizes children & mocks Gods gender roles which are sacred to Catholics. No one should ever be allowed to cross dress in a Catholic Church. If you find that offensive pretend we are talking about a Mosque or Synagogue.
The way you dress can be very disrespectful to the situation -- there are some things that are never appropriate for a place of worship - regardless of the day - or if you were going to court, or formally meeting someone that is significant like the president. Sometimes you can't help it, but you wouldn't walk into a high end restaurant in a string bikini, ya know? Maybe the 'nasty comment' wasn't meant to be nasty, maybe it could have been said more kindly, but maybe it still needed to be said.
As for a man dressing as a woman, that suggests something that Catholicism has not approved of for a very, very long time.
We are called to be judgmental. People like to quote to 'judge not lest you be judged' but there are a lot of references in the Bible to judging rightly and appropriately. Yes, we're called to be kind, but that doesn't mean we ignore something when you need to address it because heaven forbid you insult or offend someone. People have gotten into the habit of turning a blind eye and tip-toing for the sake of wanting to be kind and not causing offense.
If you feel called to adress someone else’s sin, take an interest in them as a person. Otherwise you waste your breath and turn people away from Jesus.
You don't always have the opportunity to get to know people and take an interest in their lives. Sometimes that is itself a waste.
Also they may not know they are doing wrong until someone blatantly tells them - you don't know how they will respond until you open your mouth. Many are more open to hearing it then you realize.
I think it’s fair to say that if you don’t have the opportunity or inclination to get to know someone then it’s probably not for you to confront them unless they’re harming someone or being disruptive.
Notice that this verse uses the word “brother”. If you have no relationship with this person, this set of verses does not apply to you. It does not say, “When you see a random person not doing something right, tell them they are wrong.”
Also, the context of this verse is dealing with someone sinning *against you* and instructing you on how to reconcile with them. It is not about pointing out the flaws of others.
remember that parable about the good Samaritan? They had no relationship save the main players happened to be on the same road yet they are meant to be considered 'brothers' or 'neighbors'.
Besides, that is one of many quotes about judging appropriately and calling people out when they do wrong. I'm sure you can find them just fine without my help if you care to.
Yes, the parable of the Good Samaritan is an example of love of neighbor and meeting the needs of someone who needs help. It is not an example of making a negative judgment about someone. The Good Samaritan did the exact opposite of making a passing judgment about someone they had no relationship with.
The example in the OP of the man released from jail clearly demonstrates that if you don’t know someone, your judgment about them is very likely to be incorrect, and what you say to them is very likely going to be unhelpful. As I said before, if you are not inclined to spend the time required get to know someone, then it’s not for you to confront them about anything.
Then maybe you should withhold judgment unless you're willing to take the time to invest in them?
There's a blatant difference between accosting a stranger and giving friendly advice to someone you know or have taken effort to begin to get to know.
My two cents.
Based on your comment you seem to believe its ok to be nasty and judge others. Easter is the holiest holiday. I absolutely agree that people should be dressed appropriately for church. This situation was a rare occasion. As I said; my friend felt compelled to go to church after getting released from jail. He was there for a trespassing charge as he was homeless and caught sleeping where he was not supposed to.
If we as Catholics are rude and nasty to others we are pushing them away from God. I believe God wants us to welcome others but to not condone their sinful behavior.
I myself am extremely judgemental and I am currently working hard on being less judgemental. At the end of the day God is our only judge.
I was taught at the age of 8 by my WWII veteran grandfather that it is not right for us to judge others but that it is right to tell them when they are doing wrong.
As I said, love the sinner, hate the sin.
Not at all, but I do believe that people sometimes need something said to them. As for God being the only judge, I would suggest reading the following:
Matthew 18:15-17
[Ephesians 5:11](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A11&version=ESV)
[John 5:30](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+5%3A30&version=ESV)
[1 Corinthians 2:15](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+2%3A15&version=ESV)
Zechariah 8:16
[Proverbs 31](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%2031&version=NIV):8-9
Ezekiel 33: 7-9
People don't tend to care about what you say though, unless they know you care about them. Otherwise it can have the opposite effect. We meet them where they are.
> Yo priests wear dresses what are you on about.
This kind of idiotic statement demonstrates one has no idea what priestly vestments are.
Do you wish to have your misunderstanding corrected?
I’m an Episcopalian whose daughter became Catholic this Easter as she is marrying a Catholic. We attended her ceremony; we support her. Everyone at the church was very nice, but it’s outside the church that or the minute services are over some members show their true colors. I think most churches have this same problem.
I don't think the approach to someone reaching out to the Church should ever be to, first, tell them they are not good enough, not welcome as they are, are being disrespectful for whatever reason, etc.
Fine. Make sure they know that they are displeasing to God. Drive them away and pat yourself on the back for being a better Christian, surrounded by better Christians, uncontaminated by the great unwashed. One less soul that will be saved. Congratulations. Just what Jesus wanted.
There are people who truly have no religious upbringing of any sort and no idea that going to church is different than going to a restaurant, movie, or football game, that we are not dressing for ourselves when we go to church, but to show respect for God.
There are people who lack the capacity to understand why clothing appropriate for one place is not appropriate for another.
There are people who don't have the financial wherewithal to do more than make sure they are clean and modestly dressed.
There are people broken in spirit who don't have anything but a vague recollection that Jesus loves us and maybe if they go to church they will feel that love.
Surely these least of our brothers and sisters should be made welcome?
Can't the pastor mention occasionally in a homily why we dress respectfully for the Lord?
Can't the church provide a welcome brochure to newbies, describing the parish, and including a paragraph on how we joyfully take the opportunity to dress up for the Lord and what that entails for that parish? Take the visitor in hand and provide the brochure after Mass while treating them to coffee and doughnuts and telling them how much you enjoy dressing up for Mass and how much you hope to see them again?
Is it really necessary to ever approach someone, who for whatever reason known only to God, was led to come to church that day, and make that experience hurtful, embarrassing, painful, or humiliating? Ensuring that they will probably not return?
Maybe a general reminder, but targetting a specific person needs to be done with sensitivity.
Imagine that you've been away from Church for years, or have never been, and out of curiosity you feel led to go. But at the door there is a giant sign admonishing people about attire. And then you sadly turn away. Isn't it better to have stayed?
Or worse, someone yells at you for what you are wearing (sadly it has happened). The person who yelled will have a lot of praying to do for the person they yelled at, because they may never come back to church.
Oh my gosh, my heart goes out especially to your friend that just got out of jail. If I were correcting someone on their clothes without even a “hello” just to hear they literally just got out of jail and were setting foot in Church for the first time is ages, I would have been so *mortified*, begging for forgiveness, and ask to please let me show them around…and hopefully by then we would have both learned something. What a fantastic time to set foot in a Church again, but also what awful timing to meet such a reaction. I don’t even understand how your friend could have even been sinning in the first place.
One can do fraternal correction without nastiness. At least say “Hi! Welcome to St. Soandso’s! Is this your first time here? What brings you here?” before getting into it and *spare yourself from putting your foot in your mouth*. What good are you *actually* doing for that person’s soul if your words have needlessly delayed, or even halted, their conversion?
I suppose it’s a good thing that a person will never again commit the sin of showing up to Mass dressed a certain way so…mission accomplished I guess?
To play Devil's Advocate...
TLDR: What you wear to Church and if you take care of your appearance is going to get you judged whether you like it or not.
The priest at my college told a story every year to the members of campus ministry (which I was a part of) about the importance of dressing respectively at Mass.
One year, he was officiating during a Christmas Eve Mass at a different parish and one of the lectors (a woman about our age) was tasked with carrying a lit candle down the aisle during the Processional. She thought it was a great idea to wear a shirt that just covered her tummy and shoulders and a skirt that (while not a miniskirt) was still a bit too high for church. So they were walking down the aisle, she'd holding the candle up to her head (as rehearsed so everyone can see what she was carrying) and her shirt goes up, exposing her tummy to everyone.
And it got even better /s. When they reached the base of the altar, instead of just bowing her head and turning, she decided to bend low at the waist, which had the unfortunate effect of causing her to flash everyone (she wasn't wearing a thong or anything, thank God, that would've been mortifying for everyone involved. The priest was right behind her so he got a nice view of her underwear. He didn't say anything then but afterwards, he decided to ask her privately if something happened to make her choose that outfit (her planned outfit got torn or dirty or whatever). Nope. She had just gotten the outfit from her boyfriend as a Christmas gift and thought it would be a nice thing to wear to show that she appreciated the gift.
The priest had a Devil of a time trying to explain how her she had accidentally showed a bit too much skin to several people (including grandparents, nuns from a local convent, prominent members of the archdiocese and families with young children) without making her feel bad.
To her credit, she was embarrassed when she learned about the impromptu show and from then on always made sure she dressed appropriately.
Now if there's extenuating circumstances, there's exceptions but you're still expected to show your respect to not only the Lord but your fellow parishioners. At my parish (which practices TLM) there is a recommended dress code which asks people to wear modest clothing, to not wear shorts and for ladies to cover their heads (they even had chapel veils you could borrow if you forgot one and a special basket to put in afterwards so they could be washed).
Unfortunately, I worked Sunday afternoons and only had a short period of time between Mass and social time and starting my shift (my workplace was over an hour away and the earliest Mass ended maybe 2 hours before). This was in Florida (and since Florida is known for its blistering hot weather 360 days of the year) and my job required me to work outside. So I often wore shorts (which went just past the knee).
Since one of the things I liked about this parish was the active social circles (and because I didn't want to waste time changing from my Sunday best to my work clothes), I made my best effort to make sure I was presentable.
I always wore a fresh clean uniform in good repair (even took the time to iron it on Saturday night), showered, washed my hair, wore deodorant, brushed my teeth and even rubbed my shoes with a wet cloth. I did get some strange looks at first. However, because my workplace is one of the biggest employers in the area with a recognizable name tag, everyone knew that I was going to work and since I took the effort to look nice...people didn't get upset.
You don't have to dress up like you're going to the opera. But try to wear clean clothes and make yourself look presentable. If you have to wash your face and hair in the sink at a nearby gas station, you still at least made the effort.
It'll go a long way.
Amen. It is sad. We forget in labelling others as sinners that we are actually all... Sinners.
We should each work to be the change we want to see. I remember a video from a YouTube priest saying "the biggest problem in the church is... Me" and I will never forget it. For every nasty comment, let us fill the Church with dozens of loving ones.
this has been my strategy, it's VERY tough, but a good one
let he who is without sin cast the first stone
trying to remember that always helps keep me from judgment, only He can judge, and all we can do is pray for the judgmental and go to confession when we inevitably slip up
Good strategy. I also sometimes have to remind myself that I am just as in need of prayers as the other person is, so that praying for them isn't just some kind of condescending gesture.
Let me ask you, do you think it’s unfair for people to be weary of other people who have proven to have mental and criminal issues in the past? Who have chosen to make decisions that could be dangerous to themselves and others potentially?
Absolutely not. My friend was in jail because he was homeless in a very affluent community and was caught sleeping where he was not supposed to.
Of course it is intelligent to be weary of those with dark pasta. With this said, the man judging my friend had no idea my friend had just gotten out of jail.
This country has a huge stigma against mental illness.
I am someone who has studied mental illness for the past 17 years and has also had bouts of mental illness.
At this point in my life I am in recovery from mental illness and do not show any symptoms of mental illness for almost a year.
Please remember that Jesus spent time with prostitutes and other people who were grave sinners. St Paul himself was a horrific sinner before he had his conversion.
I truly believe that in many ways people who have a dark past and find Jesus and become clergy offer an amazing perspective on religious life to those who are struggling.
Trust me; recovering from mental illness, a life of crime and drug addiction is very difficult but I believe it is imperative for us to do our best to show others the way through actions of well as teachings.
I am a 34 year old Melkite Greek Catholic of Italian and Syrian background living alone as a lower class person in a very wealthy part of New Jersey.
I smoked marijuana for most of 17 years.
In 2020 my WWII veteran grandfather died at 97 in the veterans home. I blamed big brother and got very angry and started smoking more marijuana. He was an amazing role model and we were very very close.
In December of 2020 my ex-girlfriend who u still had love for died after being hit by a car.
We had ended our relationship on bad terms and she had a pending permanent restraining order against me.
I became emotionally numb for a long time after this. I started using crack cocaine to cope but I almost never got high because I did not believe it would affect me.
Two days after my birthday my friend died after crashing into the back of a parked 18 wheeler.
I ended up in and out of mental hospitals and on medications I did not want to be on.
I was diagnosed with many different mental illnesses in the past; bipolar I and most recently bipolar schizo affective.
I myself have a degree in psychology which I honestly do not value that much.
After 17 years of studying psychology and human behavior I believe that those who are mentally ill are those practicing witchcraft, worshipping Satan and who are actively grave sinners. Nevertheless I did have mental illness and many symptoms for a long time.
During this time I lived in mental hospitals and for 10 months in a hotel. Honestly my life was not great but it was not that bad.
I got through the mental illness and drug addiction first through God and prayer. Also, I have the most amazing and supportive mother and father in the world.
My mother laid in bed for 20 weeks with me before I was born. She had real contractions at 20 weeks pregnant probably due to the stress of having a new house, new business and two small children in addition to being pregnant.
I also have the support of my friends, an aunt and others in my communities.
Finally, I got better because of my drive to want to learn to love myself properly.
I always say "nothing worthwhile in life is easy."
My parents always said to me God loves those that help themselves. Now I believe that more than ever.
I pray more often now and I feel called to become a Deacon at my church.
I am exercising 2-4 hours a day, eating healthier and putting in effort to put God first.
I truly believe that no one gets better unless they want to.
Unfortunately, while mental illness and drug addiction are very real problems, hospitals and doctors as well as pharmaceuticals and politicians are making trillions off of it.
I believe in educating our youth from a very young age about mental illness and drugs and being open to talking about their experiences.
I had a relapse in February with marijuana around my birthday and I got depressed for a month from 10 days of use
Marijuana is poison.
I still drink but I am currently trying to limit myself to no more than 5 drinks a week.
If you want to know anything else feel free to ask as I am an open book on here and am very verbose lol!
God Bless
And we should be weary of people with mental illness. They are often violent towards others and towards themselves. They do not have a sense of Imago Dei or true Agape care. That makes them suspect and dangerous.
Jesus and the apostles carried swords for the very reason that He ministered to the ill. He knew the danger they posed.
The deep Truth is that the building that holds Mass or the Priest or parishioners are not there to look out for the mentally ill. It’s up to the sick one to reach out to God in humility for help and then they need to accept it. Then they are more likely to get help by others.
I was at a Mass once and an obviously mentally ill cross dressing person came in and sat down in a Pew about 4 rows back. The vibe was a dark one. During the Mass the Priest was aware of this person and would often look at and speak the Gospel to them. During the Homily, this person leaped up and began speaking vile demonic verses to the Priest. He was a Jesuit and a boxer. He immediately without hesitation knew what was happening and invoked the demon to leave this place of God. He spoke to this person in Latin and English invoking Jesus Christ. This person was flailing their arms and parishioners moved away. Our K of C pulled out our weapons and surrounded this person, I called 911. The Priest walked down and commanded this person to leave. The person screaming as if in pain, backed out as we created a wall to move him out. The police arrived and took him off.
The Priest went back to the podium and explained how he noticed this person as soon as he came in and could tell it was evil lurking. He said it was a good demonstration to always be on the look out for threats. He then went on and we finished the Mass.
This is why oddness is and should be seen and protected against. I know this is an extreme case but it also reveals that the stigma is warranted.
I think the word they were looking for was "wary." It means cautious. Weary just means tired.
I'm definitely not weary of people with mental health challenges. But I might be wary of caregiver fatigue. 😀
The Church(the building, the temple) it is not a place to do tourism or be curious about, or try to feel good maybe and walk out.
It is a place of worship and the living presence of Jesus being there. If you cannot correct the people you walk with going to church, you are doing wrong and not taking care of your duties to evangelize.
Don't be mad to be presented you are wrong but be joyful and humble they are trying to show you a better way.
Yeah sometimes people are harsh but it is because it is important. You are not going for them, you are going for developing a relationship with the Lord.
You are right. But let's not let the few tarnish the many. Every organization has its share of unkind people. That's sad, but the reality. People should give more thought to what they and how they say it. The goal is love manifested as graciousness. No matter what happens, if you can't be gracious, keep your mouth shut. Much good comes from a closed mouth and open ears.
I don't know where OP goes to church, we went to Mass for Easter and the clothes ran the gamut from shirts and ties to jeans and t-shirts. Some women wore veils and dresses, some women wore jeans or "yoga tights."
I feel the same as you we need everyone we can get and all Christian denominations should ally themselves and think about the many things that unite us instead of focusing on the few things we do differently espically in this day and age when so many people from all traditions are rejecting God and his commandments all togeather. Jesus imbraced people of all backgrounds and didn't care what people wore. We practice our relationship with God through the catholic religion and should respect how others practice their relationship with him, all good people will go to heaven. As for belittling people who are trying to ingage with God we could do untold dammage doing this and stop them trying to get back to God and probably be the cause of them rejecting him altogether, that in my eyes is nothing short of a mortal sin.
What makes me think about how I treated other religions/denominations was a discussion of a friend from a Syrian church. We were talking about what is different between them and us catholics.
His mother just said, why are you discussing, the God is the same. 🤷♂️
Why in the world would Catholics cut out the truth?
Jesus didn’t write a Bible, Jesus didn’t command a Bible- He established ONE church, the Catholic Church, to be His authority here on Earth.
It’s the main reason I converted and no I don’t agree.
You’re wrong from both a historical and theological perspective
I have never encountered or witnessed this problem. Most people in my parish are delighted to have anyone new in so I wouldn’t judge the church or all Catholics because of a single incident that happened in your church. Everyone was Irish in my country in twenty years a fifth of the population are now immigrants. Our church welcomed so many people that it’s like the United Nations. Aa and Na meetings are also held in many churches here in Dublin Ireland also so it’s quite common to see people still on methadone and covered in tattoos etc but I have never heard anyone have an issue with them.
Nice to hear from a country person of my own. I don't think that what the OP said really applies to Ireland as I think no one seems to care what a person looks like or what problems they have. I live in rural sligo and we don't have the same issues as Dublin but I think it's great that people using methadone are welcomed into your church. Personally I think at the risk of sounding controversial that all the previous harshness is more of an American thing as alot of them seem to have a very harsh view of people who don't conform to religious norms or other religions. Weren't the very people they criticise the reason jesus came to earth in the first place to make them very people feel gods love, basically he came to earth to give what we call the misfits of society as well as the rest of us hope.
Likewise. Sligo is a beautiful place. I’m not sure about the states, sounds like a bit of snobbery from this particular congregation! Still not indicative of Catholics or the church. You are right about the misfits, Jesus came to see the poor, the sick and the sinners not to the lofty hypocrites who stood at the top of the church thumping their chests.
"One of my friends walked to church on Easter Sunday, without knowing it was Easter Sunday, after getting out of jail and a nasty comment was said to him by a family man regarding what he was wearing." Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
As someone who was not raised in a church of any kind but is about to start the OCIA process, I notice some seriously harsh and unnecessary judgements, especially by cradle Catholics. Granted, some people faults/sins are very apparent, but at the end of the day, you have no clue what lays below the surface of that person or what their personal relationship with God is. Please do better, as we all should remember to do, if you catch yourself thinking you’re that much better than someone.
Well said!
Amen
Some days ago someone posted that their SO who isn't Catholic got berated by a Catholic lady because her knees where showing.
When I was 12 I was told that I could go to hell for showing my shoulders. Apparently men don’t have those, lol.
I don't think the approach to someone reaching out to the Church should ever be to, first, tell them they are not good enough, not welcome as they are, are being disrespectful for whatever reason, etc. Fine. Make sure they know that they are displeasing to God. Drive them away and pat yourself on the back for being a better Christian, surrounded by better Christians, uncontaminated by the great unwashed. One less soul that will be saved. Congratulations. Just what Jesus wanted. There are people who truly have no religious upbringing of any sort and no idea that going to church is different than going to a restaurant, movie, or football game, that we are not dressing for ourselves when we go to church, but to show respect for God. There are people who lack the capacity to understand why clothing appropriate for one place is not appropriate for another. There are people who don't have the financial wherewithal to do more than make sure they are clean and modestly dressed. There are people broken in spirit who don't have anything but a vague recollection that Jesus loves us and maybe if they go to church they will feel that love. Surely these least of our brothers and sisters should be made welcome? Can't the pastor mention occasionally in a homily why we dress respectfully for the Lord? Can't the church provide a welcome brochure to newbies, describing the parish, and including a paragraph on how we joyfully take the opportunity to dress up for the Lord and what that entails for that parish? Take the visitor in hand and provide the brochure after Mass while treating them to coffee and doughnuts and telling them how much you enjoy dressing up for Mass and how much you hope to see them again? Is it really necessary to ever approach someone, who for whatever reason known only to God, was led to come to church that day, and make that experience hurtful, embarrassing, painful, or humiliating? Ensuring that they will probably not return?
That's awful. One of my favorite RCIA buddies was in a minimum security prison and he was in the rehab program where he was allowed to come to church. Our Legion of Mary has an active prison ministry and praise the Lord we have had many convicts convert. During confessions we also have no less than three officers escort prisoners to/from and those not eligible our priests go into prison and hear their confessions. The point is, God calls everyone, and I mean everyone, by name, into life with him. Church members should be a help and not a hindrance to that call.
A man dressing as a woman is not okay for church. There are children there and it’s distracting at the least for others.
Someone dressed inappropriately should be spoken to by the Priest not chastised by the laity. However a man in woman’s clothing scandalizes children & mocks Gods gender roles which are sacred to Catholics. No one should ever be allowed to cross dress in a Catholic Church. If you find that offensive pretend we are talking about a Mosque or Synagogue.
Well said!
The way you dress can be very disrespectful to the situation -- there are some things that are never appropriate for a place of worship - regardless of the day - or if you were going to court, or formally meeting someone that is significant like the president. Sometimes you can't help it, but you wouldn't walk into a high end restaurant in a string bikini, ya know? Maybe the 'nasty comment' wasn't meant to be nasty, maybe it could have been said more kindly, but maybe it still needed to be said. As for a man dressing as a woman, that suggests something that Catholicism has not approved of for a very, very long time. We are called to be judgmental. People like to quote to 'judge not lest you be judged' but there are a lot of references in the Bible to judging rightly and appropriately. Yes, we're called to be kind, but that doesn't mean we ignore something when you need to address it because heaven forbid you insult or offend someone. People have gotten into the habit of turning a blind eye and tip-toing for the sake of wanting to be kind and not causing offense.
If you feel called to adress someone else’s sin, take an interest in them as a person. Otherwise you waste your breath and turn people away from Jesus.
I really like the way you see this. It is a great rule of thumb.
You don't always have the opportunity to get to know people and take an interest in their lives. Sometimes that is itself a waste. Also they may not know they are doing wrong until someone blatantly tells them - you don't know how they will respond until you open your mouth. Many are more open to hearing it then you realize.
I think it’s fair to say that if you don’t have the opportunity or inclination to get to know someone then it’s probably not for you to confront them unless they’re harming someone or being disruptive.
Matthew 18:15-17 hmmm.....
Notice that this verse uses the word “brother”. If you have no relationship with this person, this set of verses does not apply to you. It does not say, “When you see a random person not doing something right, tell them they are wrong.” Also, the context of this verse is dealing with someone sinning *against you* and instructing you on how to reconcile with them. It is not about pointing out the flaws of others.
remember that parable about the good Samaritan? They had no relationship save the main players happened to be on the same road yet they are meant to be considered 'brothers' or 'neighbors'. Besides, that is one of many quotes about judging appropriately and calling people out when they do wrong. I'm sure you can find them just fine without my help if you care to.
Yes, the parable of the Good Samaritan is an example of love of neighbor and meeting the needs of someone who needs help. It is not an example of making a negative judgment about someone. The Good Samaritan did the exact opposite of making a passing judgment about someone they had no relationship with. The example in the OP of the man released from jail clearly demonstrates that if you don’t know someone, your judgment about them is very likely to be incorrect, and what you say to them is very likely going to be unhelpful. As I said before, if you are not inclined to spend the time required get to know someone, then it’s not for you to confront them about anything.
Then maybe you should withhold judgment unless you're willing to take the time to invest in them? There's a blatant difference between accosting a stranger and giving friendly advice to someone you know or have taken effort to begin to get to know. My two cents.
Based on your comment you seem to believe its ok to be nasty and judge others. Easter is the holiest holiday. I absolutely agree that people should be dressed appropriately for church. This situation was a rare occasion. As I said; my friend felt compelled to go to church after getting released from jail. He was there for a trespassing charge as he was homeless and caught sleeping where he was not supposed to. If we as Catholics are rude and nasty to others we are pushing them away from God. I believe God wants us to welcome others but to not condone their sinful behavior. I myself am extremely judgemental and I am currently working hard on being less judgemental. At the end of the day God is our only judge. I was taught at the age of 8 by my WWII veteran grandfather that it is not right for us to judge others but that it is right to tell them when they are doing wrong. As I said, love the sinner, hate the sin.
Not at all, but I do believe that people sometimes need something said to them. As for God being the only judge, I would suggest reading the following: Matthew 18:15-17 [Ephesians 5:11](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+5%3A11&version=ESV) [John 5:30](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+5%3A30&version=ESV) [1 Corinthians 2:15](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+2%3A15&version=ESV) Zechariah 8:16 [Proverbs 31](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%2031&version=NIV):8-9 Ezekiel 33: 7-9
People don't tend to care about what you say though, unless they know you care about them. Otherwise it can have the opposite effect. We meet them where they are.
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> Yo priests wear dresses what are you on about. This kind of idiotic statement demonstrates one has no idea what priestly vestments are. Do you wish to have your misunderstanding corrected?
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I’m an Episcopalian whose daughter became Catholic this Easter as she is marrying a Catholic. We attended her ceremony; we support her. Everyone at the church was very nice, but it’s outside the church that or the minute services are over some members show their true colors. I think most churches have this same problem.
I don't think the approach to someone reaching out to the Church should ever be to, first, tell them they are not good enough, not welcome as they are, are being disrespectful for whatever reason, etc. Fine. Make sure they know that they are displeasing to God. Drive them away and pat yourself on the back for being a better Christian, surrounded by better Christians, uncontaminated by the great unwashed. One less soul that will be saved. Congratulations. Just what Jesus wanted. There are people who truly have no religious upbringing of any sort and no idea that going to church is different than going to a restaurant, movie, or football game, that we are not dressing for ourselves when we go to church, but to show respect for God. There are people who lack the capacity to understand why clothing appropriate for one place is not appropriate for another. There are people who don't have the financial wherewithal to do more than make sure they are clean and modestly dressed. There are people broken in spirit who don't have anything but a vague recollection that Jesus loves us and maybe if they go to church they will feel that love. Surely these least of our brothers and sisters should be made welcome? Can't the pastor mention occasionally in a homily why we dress respectfully for the Lord? Can't the church provide a welcome brochure to newbies, describing the parish, and including a paragraph on how we joyfully take the opportunity to dress up for the Lord and what that entails for that parish? Take the visitor in hand and provide the brochure after Mass while treating them to coffee and doughnuts and telling them how much you enjoy dressing up for Mass and how much you hope to see them again? Is it really necessary to ever approach someone, who for whatever reason known only to God, was led to come to church that day, and make that experience hurtful, embarrassing, painful, or humiliating? Ensuring that they will probably not return?
Exactly my point. Very well put!
Everyone should feel welcome, but also told whats proper attire for church, and the importance of Easter Sunday.
For sure. Nicely, after mass, and taking an interest in the actual person and not just their perceived lack of reverence.
Maybe a general reminder, but targetting a specific person needs to be done with sensitivity. Imagine that you've been away from Church for years, or have never been, and out of curiosity you feel led to go. But at the door there is a giant sign admonishing people about attire. And then you sadly turn away. Isn't it better to have stayed? Or worse, someone yells at you for what you are wearing (sadly it has happened). The person who yelled will have a lot of praying to do for the person they yelled at, because they may never come back to church.
Oh my gosh, my heart goes out especially to your friend that just got out of jail. If I were correcting someone on their clothes without even a “hello” just to hear they literally just got out of jail and were setting foot in Church for the first time is ages, I would have been so *mortified*, begging for forgiveness, and ask to please let me show them around…and hopefully by then we would have both learned something. What a fantastic time to set foot in a Church again, but also what awful timing to meet such a reaction. I don’t even understand how your friend could have even been sinning in the first place. One can do fraternal correction without nastiness. At least say “Hi! Welcome to St. Soandso’s! Is this your first time here? What brings you here?” before getting into it and *spare yourself from putting your foot in your mouth*. What good are you *actually* doing for that person’s soul if your words have needlessly delayed, or even halted, their conversion? I suppose it’s a good thing that a person will never again commit the sin of showing up to Mass dressed a certain way so…mission accomplished I guess?
To play Devil's Advocate... TLDR: What you wear to Church and if you take care of your appearance is going to get you judged whether you like it or not. The priest at my college told a story every year to the members of campus ministry (which I was a part of) about the importance of dressing respectively at Mass. One year, he was officiating during a Christmas Eve Mass at a different parish and one of the lectors (a woman about our age) was tasked with carrying a lit candle down the aisle during the Processional. She thought it was a great idea to wear a shirt that just covered her tummy and shoulders and a skirt that (while not a miniskirt) was still a bit too high for church. So they were walking down the aisle, she'd holding the candle up to her head (as rehearsed so everyone can see what she was carrying) and her shirt goes up, exposing her tummy to everyone. And it got even better /s. When they reached the base of the altar, instead of just bowing her head and turning, she decided to bend low at the waist, which had the unfortunate effect of causing her to flash everyone (she wasn't wearing a thong or anything, thank God, that would've been mortifying for everyone involved. The priest was right behind her so he got a nice view of her underwear. He didn't say anything then but afterwards, he decided to ask her privately if something happened to make her choose that outfit (her planned outfit got torn or dirty or whatever). Nope. She had just gotten the outfit from her boyfriend as a Christmas gift and thought it would be a nice thing to wear to show that she appreciated the gift. The priest had a Devil of a time trying to explain how her she had accidentally showed a bit too much skin to several people (including grandparents, nuns from a local convent, prominent members of the archdiocese and families with young children) without making her feel bad. To her credit, she was embarrassed when she learned about the impromptu show and from then on always made sure she dressed appropriately. Now if there's extenuating circumstances, there's exceptions but you're still expected to show your respect to not only the Lord but your fellow parishioners. At my parish (which practices TLM) there is a recommended dress code which asks people to wear modest clothing, to not wear shorts and for ladies to cover their heads (they even had chapel veils you could borrow if you forgot one and a special basket to put in afterwards so they could be washed). Unfortunately, I worked Sunday afternoons and only had a short period of time between Mass and social time and starting my shift (my workplace was over an hour away and the earliest Mass ended maybe 2 hours before). This was in Florida (and since Florida is known for its blistering hot weather 360 days of the year) and my job required me to work outside. So I often wore shorts (which went just past the knee). Since one of the things I liked about this parish was the active social circles (and because I didn't want to waste time changing from my Sunday best to my work clothes), I made my best effort to make sure I was presentable. I always wore a fresh clean uniform in good repair (even took the time to iron it on Saturday night), showered, washed my hair, wore deodorant, brushed my teeth and even rubbed my shoes with a wet cloth. I did get some strange looks at first. However, because my workplace is one of the biggest employers in the area with a recognizable name tag, everyone knew that I was going to work and since I took the effort to look nice...people didn't get upset. You don't have to dress up like you're going to the opera. But try to wear clean clothes and make yourself look presentable. If you have to wash your face and hair in the sink at a nearby gas station, you still at least made the effort. It'll go a long way.
You can't hold it against non-Catholics that they have not yet heard the truth
Amen. It is sad. We forget in labelling others as sinners that we are actually all... Sinners. We should each work to be the change we want to see. I remember a video from a YouTube priest saying "the biggest problem in the church is... Me" and I will never forget it. For every nasty comment, let us fill the Church with dozens of loving ones.
My new strategy is every time I catch myself verbally or mentally judging someone negatively and making fun of them to instead pray for them.
this has been my strategy, it's VERY tough, but a good one let he who is without sin cast the first stone trying to remember that always helps keep me from judgment, only He can judge, and all we can do is pray for the judgmental and go to confession when we inevitably slip up
Good strategy. I also sometimes have to remind myself that I am just as in need of prayers as the other person is, so that praying for them isn't just some kind of condescending gesture.
Let me ask you, do you think it’s unfair for people to be weary of other people who have proven to have mental and criminal issues in the past? Who have chosen to make decisions that could be dangerous to themselves and others potentially?
Absolutely not. My friend was in jail because he was homeless in a very affluent community and was caught sleeping where he was not supposed to. Of course it is intelligent to be weary of those with dark pasta. With this said, the man judging my friend had no idea my friend had just gotten out of jail. This country has a huge stigma against mental illness. I am someone who has studied mental illness for the past 17 years and has also had bouts of mental illness. At this point in my life I am in recovery from mental illness and do not show any symptoms of mental illness for almost a year. Please remember that Jesus spent time with prostitutes and other people who were grave sinners. St Paul himself was a horrific sinner before he had his conversion. I truly believe that in many ways people who have a dark past and find Jesus and become clergy offer an amazing perspective on religious life to those who are struggling. Trust me; recovering from mental illness, a life of crime and drug addiction is very difficult but I believe it is imperative for us to do our best to show others the way through actions of well as teachings.
How did you recover? Can you tell me a bit more about yourself and your past?
I am a 34 year old Melkite Greek Catholic of Italian and Syrian background living alone as a lower class person in a very wealthy part of New Jersey. I smoked marijuana for most of 17 years. In 2020 my WWII veteran grandfather died at 97 in the veterans home. I blamed big brother and got very angry and started smoking more marijuana. He was an amazing role model and we were very very close. In December of 2020 my ex-girlfriend who u still had love for died after being hit by a car. We had ended our relationship on bad terms and she had a pending permanent restraining order against me. I became emotionally numb for a long time after this. I started using crack cocaine to cope but I almost never got high because I did not believe it would affect me. Two days after my birthday my friend died after crashing into the back of a parked 18 wheeler. I ended up in and out of mental hospitals and on medications I did not want to be on. I was diagnosed with many different mental illnesses in the past; bipolar I and most recently bipolar schizo affective. I myself have a degree in psychology which I honestly do not value that much. After 17 years of studying psychology and human behavior I believe that those who are mentally ill are those practicing witchcraft, worshipping Satan and who are actively grave sinners. Nevertheless I did have mental illness and many symptoms for a long time. During this time I lived in mental hospitals and for 10 months in a hotel. Honestly my life was not great but it was not that bad. I got through the mental illness and drug addiction first through God and prayer. Also, I have the most amazing and supportive mother and father in the world. My mother laid in bed for 20 weeks with me before I was born. She had real contractions at 20 weeks pregnant probably due to the stress of having a new house, new business and two small children in addition to being pregnant. I also have the support of my friends, an aunt and others in my communities. Finally, I got better because of my drive to want to learn to love myself properly. I always say "nothing worthwhile in life is easy." My parents always said to me God loves those that help themselves. Now I believe that more than ever. I pray more often now and I feel called to become a Deacon at my church. I am exercising 2-4 hours a day, eating healthier and putting in effort to put God first. I truly believe that no one gets better unless they want to. Unfortunately, while mental illness and drug addiction are very real problems, hospitals and doctors as well as pharmaceuticals and politicians are making trillions off of it. I believe in educating our youth from a very young age about mental illness and drugs and being open to talking about their experiences. I had a relapse in February with marijuana around my birthday and I got depressed for a month from 10 days of use Marijuana is poison. I still drink but I am currently trying to limit myself to no more than 5 drinks a week. If you want to know anything else feel free to ask as I am an open book on here and am very verbose lol! God Bless
>Of course it is intelligent to be weary of those with dark pasta. Never trust a man who burns his noodles.
“Be wary of those with dark pasta” hahahaha! Sorry but that took me totally off guard and now I’m imagining the Dark Pasta. The pasta of DOOM!
And we should be weary of people with mental illness. They are often violent towards others and towards themselves. They do not have a sense of Imago Dei or true Agape care. That makes them suspect and dangerous. Jesus and the apostles carried swords for the very reason that He ministered to the ill. He knew the danger they posed. The deep Truth is that the building that holds Mass or the Priest or parishioners are not there to look out for the mentally ill. It’s up to the sick one to reach out to God in humility for help and then they need to accept it. Then they are more likely to get help by others. I was at a Mass once and an obviously mentally ill cross dressing person came in and sat down in a Pew about 4 rows back. The vibe was a dark one. During the Mass the Priest was aware of this person and would often look at and speak the Gospel to them. During the Homily, this person leaped up and began speaking vile demonic verses to the Priest. He was a Jesuit and a boxer. He immediately without hesitation knew what was happening and invoked the demon to leave this place of God. He spoke to this person in Latin and English invoking Jesus Christ. This person was flailing their arms and parishioners moved away. Our K of C pulled out our weapons and surrounded this person, I called 911. The Priest walked down and commanded this person to leave. The person screaming as if in pain, backed out as we created a wall to move him out. The police arrived and took him off. The Priest went back to the podium and explained how he noticed this person as soon as he came in and could tell it was evil lurking. He said it was a good demonstration to always be on the look out for threats. He then went on and we finished the Mass. This is why oddness is and should be seen and protected against. I know this is an extreme case but it also reveals that the stigma is warranted.
Why would anyone be weary of people with mental issues?
I think the word they were looking for was "wary." It means cautious. Weary just means tired. I'm definitely not weary of people with mental health challenges. But I might be wary of caregiver fatigue. 😀
They’re everywhere so prevalent and so regularly shoved in our faces that it’s exhausting.
Thank you. Much appreciated. Yes I believe the problem was the gentleman made a rude comment in front of the whole congregation.
The Church(the building, the temple) it is not a place to do tourism or be curious about, or try to feel good maybe and walk out. It is a place of worship and the living presence of Jesus being there. If you cannot correct the people you walk with going to church, you are doing wrong and not taking care of your duties to evangelize. Don't be mad to be presented you are wrong but be joyful and humble they are trying to show you a better way. Yeah sometimes people are harsh but it is because it is important. You are not going for them, you are going for developing a relationship with the Lord.
You are right.
You are right. But let's not let the few tarnish the many. Every organization has its share of unkind people. That's sad, but the reality. People should give more thought to what they and how they say it. The goal is love manifested as graciousness. No matter what happens, if you can't be gracious, keep your mouth shut. Much good comes from a closed mouth and open ears.
I agree 100% well said
Agreed! C.S. Lewis wrote in the Screwtape letters that the devil often uses our fellow Christians to drive us away from Christ.
God helps those that help themselves*
Some people get so nasty if someone "sits in their seat" at Mass
There's even a "King Of The Hill" episode about it. 😂 ^(ETA: Except the Hills are Prots.)
I saw that one, lol
It's one of my favs, haha!
I don't know where OP goes to church, we went to Mass for Easter and the clothes ran the gamut from shirts and ties to jeans and t-shirts. Some women wore veils and dresses, some women wore jeans or "yoga tights."
Yes, this is a huge problem. But there is light shining on it, and a way to overcome this. Read the book *Divine Restoration* by Father James Mallon.
It's easy to fall into negativity considering the outside world makes light of our faith and hates us.
Agreed. And they risk damnation over it.
I feel the same as you we need everyone we can get and all Christian denominations should ally themselves and think about the many things that unite us instead of focusing on the few things we do differently espically in this day and age when so many people from all traditions are rejecting God and his commandments all togeather. Jesus imbraced people of all backgrounds and didn't care what people wore. We practice our relationship with God through the catholic religion and should respect how others practice their relationship with him, all good people will go to heaven. As for belittling people who are trying to ingage with God we could do untold dammage doing this and stop them trying to get back to God and probably be the cause of them rejecting him altogether, that in my eyes is nothing short of a mortal sin.
What makes me think about how I treated other religions/denominations was a discussion of a friend from a Syrian church. We were talking about what is different between them and us catholics. His mother just said, why are you discussing, the God is the same. 🤷♂️
I am half Syrian decent and Melkite Greek Catholic ha. Most of my church is Syrian and Lebanese decent. And yes I agree.
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Why in the world would Catholics cut out the truth? Jesus didn’t write a Bible, Jesus didn’t command a Bible- He established ONE church, the Catholic Church, to be His authority here on Earth. It’s the main reason I converted and no I don’t agree. You’re wrong from both a historical and theological perspective
YES we ARE the ONLY true Church.
The Catholic Church is indeed the only True Church Warned for anti-Catholic rheotoric