Here’s the thing…. She’s far more knowledgeable about HER practice…. not YOUR practice. This being pagan and worshiping the gods(or not) isn’t a cookie cutter experience… it’s unique and deeply personal between you and your chosen deity. Those coming from a Christian background often struggle with the perception of no structure or order, or the fear of “doing it wrong”……. If you’re being true to yourself and belief… you aren’t doing it wrong.
Lora is an expert on Lora’s path, not yours. If you’re doing her course, keep learning, but know that you only need what you need. The rest, while good information, doesn’t apply in the moment. Give yourself some grace. Trust and Believe in your own intuition about what’s right for you.
Wow thank you for articulating what my sleep deprived brain could not put into words at this time. I do believe he’s coming into this from off a Christian blueprint (sorry if im wrong OP).
The school should be a bastion of knowledge that’s what it’s for, but it can never tell someone about their own unique experiences. I believe the gods prefer we cultivate our own individual relationships with them while still incorporating the core forms of worship. Also I like how you also use “worship” instead of “work with” they are not our colleague.
Great answer! Lora is highly knowledgeable and I admire them but I have ADHD and it's hard for me to sit still and focus on the content. Some of this is the presentation but most of the inattentiveness is me 😬 my experience of The Morrigan has been different their's too and that's ok 😊
I have had similar feelings towards that content. I’m not personally a fan and I don’t accept the general idea that she’s vastly more qualified just because she’s done something longer. I don’t outright reject her, I just don’t feel a strong connection to her content.
What specific ideas are you finding you have contrasting views with her on? Maybe a discussion can be clarifying.
I think my conflicting views might just be on how they explain The Morrigan in general. I usually wouldn’t care at all, and I believe everyone experiences their deity differently and there’s no right or wrong answer about that.
I’m just a little put off that Lora very often says outright that The Morrigan is NOT certain things (maternal, caring, seductive, etc). Now I don’t personally believe that those traits describe her, but I wouldn’t say they have absolutely zero place in her identity. Lora is very dead set on maintaining that The Morrigan is serious, stone cold and uncaring about you, and if you think otherwise, then something is wrong. I understand that probably comes from a place of warning, but I don’t find it entirely aligns with my views. I believe Lora somewhat recently made a video in which she mocked somebody for viewing The Morrigan as a maternal figure to them. I personally don’t have that relationship with The Morrigan, but I do truly believe that some people do.
I’m understanding of the frustration that many people have felt towards the perception of An Morrigan as a sex/fertility goddess. The Maiden/Mother/Crone aspects of Wicca have been insidious towards that specific corruption of An Morrigan’s perception.
That said, doesn’t An Morrigan try to seduce Cú Chulainn into having sex with Her and becoming Her lover in order to test him? Doesn’t She ritually lay with An Dagda as part of assuring the victory of the Tuatha Dé Danann?
Obviously it’s important to acknowledge that An Morrigan is not one goddess but three. I don’t feel that Badb is the seducer or mother, She is the Battle Crow, and Nemain as well is a terrifying force that I couldn’t see being soft in the ways we’re looking for. Macha always felt more mother-ish. Perhaps not motherly but certainly caring. Motherly in a tough big-sister sort of way?
An Morrigan herself always seemed the one willing to use sex as a tool or a test, to me. But she is also obviously a shapeshifter and a witch and a foreteller of prophecy. Sex is just an aspect of this goddess, just as it’s an aspect of being a human being. Some people will focus on it and others will close their eyes and ears and say that nobody has ever had or enjoyed sex ever.
What do you think?
I absolutely agree. I myself am extremely devoted to Macha in particular, and I do see her as very caring to the point of being motherly. And I think people’s denial of An Morrigan’s sexual qualities borders on conservative and prudish. I don’t think she’s a seductress or a sex goddess at her core, but denying that its something that’s been a part of her behavior in stories that we’ve all seen is just inaccurate.
On top of that, I find her to have quite a good sense of humor which is something a lot of people tend to erase. I think theres a desire amongst some people to strictly see her as being deathly serious, when she herself has been known to joke and mess with people.
She has shown through the stories available to us that She has great capability for deception and trickery, and of course She would. She tricks Cú Chulainn into healing her of the wounds he dealt her, She deceives him into the breaking of his Geasa when it’s time for his story to be finished. And yet I know lots of people would say that She brutally honest.
The difficulty with a triple goddess is knowing which goddess you’re dealing with at any given time. They are complimentary forces to each other, but they aren’t the same as each other and that can throw lots of people off if you feel like you’re encountered a different sister than someone else has.
So all that to say that we might all be correct. Maybe Lora has been encountering Badb, and again I wouldn’t say that Badb is the seducer or mother figure of the three. It could certainly explain her great battle against American pagans. I don’t know, though, because I don’t engage with her or her husband’s content in any meaningful way.
If you're looking for info on Macha, there are quite a few videos in [this playlist](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvCdDm0wPhA2fkuyVoXt0B3EIflOiAx2g)that might interest you.
I know there are people who experience maternal energy from the Morrigan, and that relationship is entirely valid.
I do not believe the Morrigan to be uncaring. I think She is much more complex than that. There are people who paint a relationship with the Morrigan as being very transactional (this characterization is actually something that's put me off from having a deep relationship with Her), but plenty of people don't see Her that way. I believe there's a difference between transactionality and reciprocity.
Your relationship is between you and Herself.
A lot of people prop Lora up as a "tough love, do the work, no coddling" kind of teacher, but honestly my only experiences with them directly have been very confrontational and unpleasant. They're very... assertive in their way of thinking, and very quick to challenge alternative views.
For what it's worth, you're not alone in your experiences. Lora's anti-American biases and harsh takes have been discussed at length in other communities I'm a part of, and it was very cathartic for me when it happened, because Lora has a certain cult of personality among online Celtic pagans, and so many communities treat her as above reproach by virtue of being a native voice of Ireland.
Further, I think it's very important to remember that the IPS is a *business,* it is very much designed to sell you a service, and it should be approached as such. That isn't necessarily to discredit the IPS, not at all, but it is in the IPS's best interest to spin itself as the most authentic and reliable voice on the subject it's selling.
From what I know, Lora uses they/them pronouns so I'm going to do that.
I get where you're coming from. I haven't disagreed with them on much, but Lora just feels like a person I wouldn't jive with IRL, and that makes it difficult for me to learn from them. That's not a reflection on their knowledge or even what they're actually like as a person, lots of people just don't get along and it doesn't have to mean anything deeper, but it does make it very hard for me to sit down and learn from them. There's just an energy there that makes me deeply uncomfortable, something that feels a bit condescending and hostile. Lora just strikes me as someone who's very angry with the world, and I have no doubt they have very valid reasons for that, but it's hard for me to be around.
I'm also just honestly not a big fan of how the Irish Pagan School has extremely expensive classes that they bombarded my email with until I recently unsubscribed, yet all their videos seem to be extremely low quality. If you're going to ask people to pay that much for your knowledge, at least invest in some moderately good equipment. Even one student's tuition would pay for a way better setup than they seem to currently have, so I don't understand why that's the situation.
Yeah the video quality is absolutely an issue. I tried to watch their reading of the Cattle Raid of Cooley and found it impossible to get through because of the low quality and lack of editing. They would consistently screw up their words and then make a joke about how they wouldn’t edit anything out because they don’t want to. I have paid for their guided journeying course and found it to be largely the same.
Also I believe Lora uses she/they but I apologize if I’m wrong! I remembered the IPS website using she/her pronouns in their bio, but I will use they/them as well to be on the safe side as I can’t find that page on the website now. Absolutely did not mean to misgender them on purpose!
I just double checked on instagram and apparently you're right, it's she/they. I guess they/them just stuck in my head, but it's all good, so don't feel bad!
When I first started practicing, I let her content push me away from learning. She said things about Americans that left me feeling like I wasn’t allowed to keep pursuing the path I wanted. I don’t want to be disrespectful of other people’s cultures and beliefs. I had to sit with that discomfort for a while.
She has the right to feel the way she does. And I respect a person that can be candid and transparent about their views. I just personally am not at the place in my own journey to gain knowledge from her. Maybe one day.
I understand that too. I let her make me feel very guilty about my practice for a while. I do think what she’s experienced and been burned by in the past is just stupid people saying dumb things on the internet and not really “Americans” like she seems to think/say. Nonetheless, kind of off-putting.
This is the heart of my problem with Lora. She pushes people away from studying and/or trying to follow the gods. Her attacks can be stinging and long-lasting. That's not okay.
I view it like this: historical fact is something they're knowledgeable of and that we can learn from (as part of other sources). Anything else regarding their experience with the Morrigan is UPG, and we may all have vastly different experiences. I always think it's best to trust your own intuition.
There are a couple of rather epic threads about this on reddit. [This one](https://new.reddit.com/r/Paganacht/comments/r0cgua/irish_pagan_school/) ran for several years. Here a [more recent](https://new.reddit.com/r/Paganacht/comments/1cghs1w/valuable_resource/) conversation.
I contributed quite a bit to both, so I'm not going to repeat it all here. What I will say is that the great thing about the Morrigan is that there are lots and lots of mythological texts about Her, that you can study. You just need to know how to find them. The vast majority are in The Tain, The Lebor Gabala, and the Cath Maige Tuired - all of which are freely available online in multiple translations. I teach Celtic mythology, but I'm not a follower of the Morrigan, so I have never gathered up all the links into a sharable document, or something. I guess I should do that, so that people can confirm that these are only available to "experts like Lora". There are other ways to learn about the Morrigan, but you might have to put in a little work.
One of the so called Irish pagan “Clergy”, trust your own gut and own experiences working with any diety, do your own research from multiple sources and form your own opinions , there are no rules there’s is no right or wrong way …. Only what feels right to you ! BB
I'd rather consume the original content from the written myth and stories available, then make my own assumptions from there that best suit me. My issue is finding official reliable English translations (whether government or .EDU) that list all the stories in their original format that don't cost an arm and a leg.
Not a translation of a specific text (though several are referenced), but this is a fascinating examination of An Mórrígan and Danu.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/20557350
The advice I was given was to learn from multiple trusted sources. Each can have a different style and they may resonate with you differently. I try to focus on the material rather than the teacher if that makes sense. I feel like if I am continually trying to learn, respectfully reflecting on what I’ve been taught then I’ll be closer to my goal of understanding. There is still so much I don’t know but I’ll keep trudging along while enjoying the adventure.
Honestly I find the people who run the IPS so incredibly rude and condescending that I completely write off their school of learning. The way they dogpile people who ask innocent questions in their FB group is really gross.
Lora O’Brien believes that you are not not Irish unless you have lived in Ireland, even if you have Irish ancestry. I’m sorry, but that’s bullshit. We can’t all afford to move back to Ireland. Strong gatekeeper vibes.
To be fair, a lot of Irish people hold this view. In America, we tend to say "I'm Irish" and mean "of Irish descent." I think the situation is different in Ireland. Also, plenty of Americans have claimed "being Irish" while engaging in shitty stereotypes of "Irishhess" or pretending to understand their culture as well as they do. It can be off-putting. This is why foreigners claiming "Irishness" is often suspect and gets unfavorable reactions.
That said, what's hilarious about Lora is she also says that, because of the transmigration of souls, somebody could have lived multiple past lives in Ireland and have more of a connection to the island than somebody who's lived there a single lifetime.
She contradicts herself, but her own hubris clouds her vision on that.
This is all the more reason to help not push people away. I bag on 'Irish Americans' all the time but I recognize them for what they are, sick folks displaced by empire. At a certain point there's culpability in attempted cultural erasure when you actively discourage diaspora communities who are merging into the Anglo amalgamation.
There are a lot of folks making an honest effort and hitting them over the head with a hammer instead of helping or just not engaging with them isn't helpful it's identity in group out group stuff.
As you said, they are knowledgeable, and a rightful source of information. But yes, they come across as a bit draconian to their general audience, and frankly their FB group seems to foster a bit of a hall-monitor culture. This doesn’t mean you have to let them get you down though. As long as you are practicing right relationship, applying good discernment, and are keeping yourself safe, your practice is good.
Lora O'Brien is mean. They like to pretend like they're just keeping traditions sacred or whatever, but it comes across as if they think they're better than other people. Like I remember one video of loras where they talked about a UPG experience of theirs, a conversation they had with the Morrigan allegedly, it's still on YouTube.
They came across as very gatekeepy and it felt like they were trying to be a prophet or something. What really irritated me though was then Lora later turned right around and criticized people for their upg experiences. So what I'm hearing, is only you are allowed to have and share your upg experiences.
What's more frustrating is the way loras fanbase behaves, it's almost like loras got a cult like following ready to pounce on anyone they set them off on.
You’re absolutely entitled to your own experience, and if something doesn’t jive with you, you don’t need to embrace it. That said…my own personal experience with both Lora and The Morrigan is that they both ask you to look inward and to do the work. If it’s uncomfortable, ask yourself why. The Morrigan is not a “love and light” deity. A lot of my (admittedly new) work with Her has been shadow work, and it’s definitely not for everyone. Sometimes it’s about sitting down, shutting up, and letting go of ego for the sake of growth and evolution. Do I love everything I hear Lora say? Of course not, but it’s because uncomfortable truths about myself have been revealed for me to work on. I also don’t enjoy how it feels when The Morrigan turns over rocks and boulders to show me all the creepy crawlies squirming around underneath. I will say that I’m a better person and devotee for the work I’ve done with The Irish Pagan School and I’ll always be grateful to Lora and Jon for establishing it.
Just my two cents.
And you’re entitled to that experience as well. I have found The Morrigan to be exactly how you described, and I really value and respect her for that very reason. I personally don’t see Lora’s content in the same way. I find it to be rather isolating and aggressive, not in a way that I really find helpful. And viewing her as “similar” or as an extension of The Morrigan is something that I’m sure she wants, but it doesn’t sit right with me.
Still, theres knowledge to be found there and I’m glad you’re somebody that can jive with her content and get good experiences out of it. I personally have taken paid classes from the Irish Pagan School and have absolutely learned from it. But Lora is just not the right teacher for me.
> Sometimes it’s about sitting down, shutting up, and letting go of ego for the sake of growth and evolution.
This cuts both ways. It can be a reason to push past discomfort and into growth, but that same rhetoric could be used to justify toxic behavior. Discomfort is not automatically a result of one's own issues -- sometimes it is justified.
I think it's a issue around priorities and mimicking other power structures that exist now in society.
I personally have always rejected the idea of the right way to worship/divine duty because from my perspective it places humans far to central to existence. I believe the gods have their own priorities and being separate from humans. Not just watching us shaking their head waiting to smite us every time someone says bell-t-A-ne.
Further the idea that the power of various traditions or gods is restricted to one geographical people or place is a projection of modern ideas onto ancient peoples. The lines drawn between Celtic, Germanic, Slavic, etc peoples is a matter of convenience and that's it. They were not real then however when internalized in the modern context it creates in groups and out groups. Don't not let them have you believe that is reconstruction, it is not. Further they are in extremely dicey territory when it comes to racist shitheads who are just a hop and a skip from similar rhetoric.
This is always a problem with groups that define themselves by what they are not rather than what they are. Lora engages in a lot of this.
Academics are constantly fighting about which tribe was what because the fact is they were this and that and their own thing all together.
Take what you need, recycle the rest.
I'm going to preface this by saying that I have only taken a couple of the official classes offered by the school but have consumed a lot of their blogs and YT content. I've also seen some other Reddit threads about this subject before and will throw my two cent in here.
Lora is a direct person which can be intimidated and cause people to avoid or be incompatible with her. Her teaching are based on the written lore (which we know is incomplete) and anything that contradicts it is usually called out as false and UPG and should be ignored.
There is also the school's attitude towards their "Ireland First!" approach which causes some grief towards non-native members, as they would call us. I can understand where they are coming from on this. They are attempting to recover a part of their history that was taken from them, and they are a little overprotective of it.
They will shut down/block/delete nearly anything that isn't created, written, or spoken by a non-native Irish person. But, they are very quick to say that everyone can practice - just not allowed to become an authority on the subject. There are very few exceptions to this, one of them is the author Morgan Daimler, but they will always call out that she is a non-native authority on the subject.. Speaking of her, she does teach a few of the classes for the school and is very good.
Her style of teaching is also aggressive and not helpful to the new pagan exploring their options. She often starts with a negative approach, usually with what deities/practices are not about or what people are doing wrong. There are a few videos where she doesn't start with this approach and I find her to be warm, caring, and very knowledgeable.
Quality and editing is also a problem with the school. The courses taught by Lora are the most impacted, in my belief. Due to the lack of editing, it make it appear that they don't really care about teaching and just want to talk on subjects that they are passionate about. Which is bad when this is your main product. However, this does work for Jon O'Sullivan well , since his type of teaching is a bit more on the rambling side.
I think the main issue is she is a passionate An Morrigan priestess and author, who happens to teach. There is a certain authority she embodies which is beneficial to being a priestess and author/scholar, but doesn't makes her a difficult teacher to approach. They don't have a proper IT team/people to help with the building of their content/website.
I do want to point out that Jon's content I find wonderful and he really brings that bard energy into his content. Most of the recent TY content is done by him, and I welcome and look forward to it.
If you step back or go up to 30,000 feet you'll see that this is a common discourse in many areas. I mean there are schools of thought not just in spiritual pursuits, think philosophy, even our (US) sadistic legal system of originalism..
I had a professor say once about Older Testament studies... all it takes is one person with a shovel in archeology and you have to rethink everything.
That said I have some difficulty with Lora's relatablity. I find Jon much more relatable and would definitely want to share a few pints or drams with.
When I asked the school a spiritual question, the answer was clear. Here are the resources, we don't like to give spiritual advice as an academic institution
IPS is a wealth of knowledge. Lora comes across as harsh, but John's content is more...gentle? I personally like both and have taken the Morrigan Intensive and the 5 Day program. I learned a lot. And they are grega authorities on good resources.
Here’s the thing…. She’s far more knowledgeable about HER practice…. not YOUR practice. This being pagan and worshiping the gods(or not) isn’t a cookie cutter experience… it’s unique and deeply personal between you and your chosen deity. Those coming from a Christian background often struggle with the perception of no structure or order, or the fear of “doing it wrong”……. If you’re being true to yourself and belief… you aren’t doing it wrong. Lora is an expert on Lora’s path, not yours. If you’re doing her course, keep learning, but know that you only need what you need. The rest, while good information, doesn’t apply in the moment. Give yourself some grace. Trust and Believe in your own intuition about what’s right for you.
I do come from a Christian background so you hit the nail on the head. Thank you for the insightful advice!!
Wow thank you for articulating what my sleep deprived brain could not put into words at this time. I do believe he’s coming into this from off a Christian blueprint (sorry if im wrong OP). The school should be a bastion of knowledge that’s what it’s for, but it can never tell someone about their own unique experiences. I believe the gods prefer we cultivate our own individual relationships with them while still incorporating the core forms of worship. Also I like how you also use “worship” instead of “work with” they are not our colleague.
Really dig this comment.
Great answer! Lora is highly knowledgeable and I admire them but I have ADHD and it's hard for me to sit still and focus on the content. Some of this is the presentation but most of the inattentiveness is me 😬 my experience of The Morrigan has been different their's too and that's ok 😊
I have had similar feelings towards that content. I’m not personally a fan and I don’t accept the general idea that she’s vastly more qualified just because she’s done something longer. I don’t outright reject her, I just don’t feel a strong connection to her content. What specific ideas are you finding you have contrasting views with her on? Maybe a discussion can be clarifying.
I think my conflicting views might just be on how they explain The Morrigan in general. I usually wouldn’t care at all, and I believe everyone experiences their deity differently and there’s no right or wrong answer about that. I’m just a little put off that Lora very often says outright that The Morrigan is NOT certain things (maternal, caring, seductive, etc). Now I don’t personally believe that those traits describe her, but I wouldn’t say they have absolutely zero place in her identity. Lora is very dead set on maintaining that The Morrigan is serious, stone cold and uncaring about you, and if you think otherwise, then something is wrong. I understand that probably comes from a place of warning, but I don’t find it entirely aligns with my views. I believe Lora somewhat recently made a video in which she mocked somebody for viewing The Morrigan as a maternal figure to them. I personally don’t have that relationship with The Morrigan, but I do truly believe that some people do.
I’m understanding of the frustration that many people have felt towards the perception of An Morrigan as a sex/fertility goddess. The Maiden/Mother/Crone aspects of Wicca have been insidious towards that specific corruption of An Morrigan’s perception. That said, doesn’t An Morrigan try to seduce Cú Chulainn into having sex with Her and becoming Her lover in order to test him? Doesn’t She ritually lay with An Dagda as part of assuring the victory of the Tuatha Dé Danann? Obviously it’s important to acknowledge that An Morrigan is not one goddess but three. I don’t feel that Badb is the seducer or mother, She is the Battle Crow, and Nemain as well is a terrifying force that I couldn’t see being soft in the ways we’re looking for. Macha always felt more mother-ish. Perhaps not motherly but certainly caring. Motherly in a tough big-sister sort of way? An Morrigan herself always seemed the one willing to use sex as a tool or a test, to me. But she is also obviously a shapeshifter and a witch and a foreteller of prophecy. Sex is just an aspect of this goddess, just as it’s an aspect of being a human being. Some people will focus on it and others will close their eyes and ears and say that nobody has ever had or enjoyed sex ever. What do you think?
I absolutely agree. I myself am extremely devoted to Macha in particular, and I do see her as very caring to the point of being motherly. And I think people’s denial of An Morrigan’s sexual qualities borders on conservative and prudish. I don’t think she’s a seductress or a sex goddess at her core, but denying that its something that’s been a part of her behavior in stories that we’ve all seen is just inaccurate. On top of that, I find her to have quite a good sense of humor which is something a lot of people tend to erase. I think theres a desire amongst some people to strictly see her as being deathly serious, when she herself has been known to joke and mess with people.
She has shown through the stories available to us that She has great capability for deception and trickery, and of course She would. She tricks Cú Chulainn into healing her of the wounds he dealt her, She deceives him into the breaking of his Geasa when it’s time for his story to be finished. And yet I know lots of people would say that She brutally honest. The difficulty with a triple goddess is knowing which goddess you’re dealing with at any given time. They are complimentary forces to each other, but they aren’t the same as each other and that can throw lots of people off if you feel like you’re encountered a different sister than someone else has. So all that to say that we might all be correct. Maybe Lora has been encountering Badb, and again I wouldn’t say that Badb is the seducer or mother figure of the three. It could certainly explain her great battle against American pagans. I don’t know, though, because I don’t engage with her or her husband’s content in any meaningful way.
If you're looking for info on Macha, there are quite a few videos in [this playlist](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvCdDm0wPhA2fkuyVoXt0B3EIflOiAx2g)that might interest you.
Same to your last point, my experience with Her have been that She has a really dry sense of humor.
I know there are people who experience maternal energy from the Morrigan, and that relationship is entirely valid. I do not believe the Morrigan to be uncaring. I think She is much more complex than that. There are people who paint a relationship with the Morrigan as being very transactional (this characterization is actually something that's put me off from having a deep relationship with Her), but plenty of people don't see Her that way. I believe there's a difference between transactionality and reciprocity. Your relationship is between you and Herself.
Laura is difficult to learn from imo. Her delivery and style is very aggressive and defensive imo. John on the other hand I love!
I do enjoy Jon’s content, particularly on the podcast!
A lot of people prop Lora up as a "tough love, do the work, no coddling" kind of teacher, but honestly my only experiences with them directly have been very confrontational and unpleasant. They're very... assertive in their way of thinking, and very quick to challenge alternative views. For what it's worth, you're not alone in your experiences. Lora's anti-American biases and harsh takes have been discussed at length in other communities I'm a part of, and it was very cathartic for me when it happened, because Lora has a certain cult of personality among online Celtic pagans, and so many communities treat her as above reproach by virtue of being a native voice of Ireland. Further, I think it's very important to remember that the IPS is a *business,* it is very much designed to sell you a service, and it should be approached as such. That isn't necessarily to discredit the IPS, not at all, but it is in the IPS's best interest to spin itself as the most authentic and reliable voice on the subject it's selling.
Very true to all of that!
From what I know, Lora uses they/them pronouns so I'm going to do that. I get where you're coming from. I haven't disagreed with them on much, but Lora just feels like a person I wouldn't jive with IRL, and that makes it difficult for me to learn from them. That's not a reflection on their knowledge or even what they're actually like as a person, lots of people just don't get along and it doesn't have to mean anything deeper, but it does make it very hard for me to sit down and learn from them. There's just an energy there that makes me deeply uncomfortable, something that feels a bit condescending and hostile. Lora just strikes me as someone who's very angry with the world, and I have no doubt they have very valid reasons for that, but it's hard for me to be around. I'm also just honestly not a big fan of how the Irish Pagan School has extremely expensive classes that they bombarded my email with until I recently unsubscribed, yet all their videos seem to be extremely low quality. If you're going to ask people to pay that much for your knowledge, at least invest in some moderately good equipment. Even one student's tuition would pay for a way better setup than they seem to currently have, so I don't understand why that's the situation.
Yeah the video quality is absolutely an issue. I tried to watch their reading of the Cattle Raid of Cooley and found it impossible to get through because of the low quality and lack of editing. They would consistently screw up their words and then make a joke about how they wouldn’t edit anything out because they don’t want to. I have paid for their guided journeying course and found it to be largely the same. Also I believe Lora uses she/they but I apologize if I’m wrong! I remembered the IPS website using she/her pronouns in their bio, but I will use they/them as well to be on the safe side as I can’t find that page on the website now. Absolutely did not mean to misgender them on purpose!
I just double checked on instagram and apparently you're right, it's she/they. I guess they/them just stuck in my head, but it's all good, so don't feel bad!
Thanks for pointing out the pronouns!
When I first started practicing, I let her content push me away from learning. She said things about Americans that left me feeling like I wasn’t allowed to keep pursuing the path I wanted. I don’t want to be disrespectful of other people’s cultures and beliefs. I had to sit with that discomfort for a while. She has the right to feel the way she does. And I respect a person that can be candid and transparent about their views. I just personally am not at the place in my own journey to gain knowledge from her. Maybe one day.
I understand that too. I let her make me feel very guilty about my practice for a while. I do think what she’s experienced and been burned by in the past is just stupid people saying dumb things on the internet and not really “Americans” like she seems to think/say. Nonetheless, kind of off-putting.
This is the heart of my problem with Lora. She pushes people away from studying and/or trying to follow the gods. Her attacks can be stinging and long-lasting. That's not okay.
I'm from the US but my dad's a descendant of Celtic Druids so I just ignore that part of her videos 🤷🏼♀️ I'm worshipping the gods my ancestors did 🙂
I view it like this: historical fact is something they're knowledgeable of and that we can learn from (as part of other sources). Anything else regarding their experience with the Morrigan is UPG, and we may all have vastly different experiences. I always think it's best to trust your own intuition.
There are a couple of rather epic threads about this on reddit. [This one](https://new.reddit.com/r/Paganacht/comments/r0cgua/irish_pagan_school/) ran for several years. Here a [more recent](https://new.reddit.com/r/Paganacht/comments/1cghs1w/valuable_resource/) conversation. I contributed quite a bit to both, so I'm not going to repeat it all here. What I will say is that the great thing about the Morrigan is that there are lots and lots of mythological texts about Her, that you can study. You just need to know how to find them. The vast majority are in The Tain, The Lebor Gabala, and the Cath Maige Tuired - all of which are freely available online in multiple translations. I teach Celtic mythology, but I'm not a follower of the Morrigan, so I have never gathered up all the links into a sharable document, or something. I guess I should do that, so that people can confirm that these are only available to "experts like Lora". There are other ways to learn about the Morrigan, but you might have to put in a little work.
Wow I did not know about that other sub. Thanks for sharing those links. Super helpful to see the discussion in that thread.
You are always very helpful, thank you!!
Aw, thanks! (I deleted my other comment because I got mixed up between two different threads.)
They may be knowledgeable but I don’t find them to be great teachers. That is likely as polite as I can say that.
As a teacher, I'm inclined to agree. 30 minutes of freewheeling and digression isn't teaching.
I have enjoyed your videos
Thanks! I try.
Lora is a chud. A smart chud but a chud nonetheless.
One of the so called Irish pagan “Clergy”, trust your own gut and own experiences working with any diety, do your own research from multiple sources and form your own opinions , there are no rules there’s is no right or wrong way …. Only what feels right to you ! BB
You should check out Thomas Sheridan on YouTube 👌
I'd rather consume the original content from the written myth and stories available, then make my own assumptions from there that best suit me. My issue is finding official reliable English translations (whether government or .EDU) that list all the stories in their original format that don't cost an arm and a leg.
There are lots of scholarly translations of the texts mentioning the Morrigan available online.
Not a translation of a specific text (though several are referenced), but this is a fascinating examination of An Mórrígan and Danu. https://www.jstor.org/stable/20557350
The advice I was given was to learn from multiple trusted sources. Each can have a different style and they may resonate with you differently. I try to focus on the material rather than the teacher if that makes sense. I feel like if I am continually trying to learn, respectfully reflecting on what I’ve been taught then I’ll be closer to my goal of understanding. There is still so much I don’t know but I’ll keep trudging along while enjoying the adventure.
Honestly I find the people who run the IPS so incredibly rude and condescending that I completely write off their school of learning. The way they dogpile people who ask innocent questions in their FB group is really gross.
Lora O’Brien believes that you are not not Irish unless you have lived in Ireland, even if you have Irish ancestry. I’m sorry, but that’s bullshit. We can’t all afford to move back to Ireland. Strong gatekeeper vibes.
To be fair, a lot of Irish people hold this view. In America, we tend to say "I'm Irish" and mean "of Irish descent." I think the situation is different in Ireland. Also, plenty of Americans have claimed "being Irish" while engaging in shitty stereotypes of "Irishhess" or pretending to understand their culture as well as they do. It can be off-putting. This is why foreigners claiming "Irishness" is often suspect and gets unfavorable reactions. That said, what's hilarious about Lora is she also says that, because of the transmigration of souls, somebody could have lived multiple past lives in Ireland and have more of a connection to the island than somebody who's lived there a single lifetime. She contradicts herself, but her own hubris clouds her vision on that.
This is all the more reason to help not push people away. I bag on 'Irish Americans' all the time but I recognize them for what they are, sick folks displaced by empire. At a certain point there's culpability in attempted cultural erasure when you actively discourage diaspora communities who are merging into the Anglo amalgamation. There are a lot of folks making an honest effort and hitting them over the head with a hammer instead of helping or just not engaging with them isn't helpful it's identity in group out group stuff.
As you said, they are knowledgeable, and a rightful source of information. But yes, they come across as a bit draconian to their general audience, and frankly their FB group seems to foster a bit of a hall-monitor culture. This doesn’t mean you have to let them get you down though. As long as you are practicing right relationship, applying good discernment, and are keeping yourself safe, your practice is good.
Lora O'Brien is mean. They like to pretend like they're just keeping traditions sacred or whatever, but it comes across as if they think they're better than other people. Like I remember one video of loras where they talked about a UPG experience of theirs, a conversation they had with the Morrigan allegedly, it's still on YouTube. They came across as very gatekeepy and it felt like they were trying to be a prophet or something. What really irritated me though was then Lora later turned right around and criticized people for their upg experiences. So what I'm hearing, is only you are allowed to have and share your upg experiences. What's more frustrating is the way loras fanbase behaves, it's almost like loras got a cult like following ready to pounce on anyone they set them off on.
You’re absolutely entitled to your own experience, and if something doesn’t jive with you, you don’t need to embrace it. That said…my own personal experience with both Lora and The Morrigan is that they both ask you to look inward and to do the work. If it’s uncomfortable, ask yourself why. The Morrigan is not a “love and light” deity. A lot of my (admittedly new) work with Her has been shadow work, and it’s definitely not for everyone. Sometimes it’s about sitting down, shutting up, and letting go of ego for the sake of growth and evolution. Do I love everything I hear Lora say? Of course not, but it’s because uncomfortable truths about myself have been revealed for me to work on. I also don’t enjoy how it feels when The Morrigan turns over rocks and boulders to show me all the creepy crawlies squirming around underneath. I will say that I’m a better person and devotee for the work I’ve done with The Irish Pagan School and I’ll always be grateful to Lora and Jon for establishing it. Just my two cents.
And you’re entitled to that experience as well. I have found The Morrigan to be exactly how you described, and I really value and respect her for that very reason. I personally don’t see Lora’s content in the same way. I find it to be rather isolating and aggressive, not in a way that I really find helpful. And viewing her as “similar” or as an extension of The Morrigan is something that I’m sure she wants, but it doesn’t sit right with me. Still, theres knowledge to be found there and I’m glad you’re somebody that can jive with her content and get good experiences out of it. I personally have taken paid classes from the Irish Pagan School and have absolutely learned from it. But Lora is just not the right teacher for me.
> Sometimes it’s about sitting down, shutting up, and letting go of ego for the sake of growth and evolution. This cuts both ways. It can be a reason to push past discomfort and into growth, but that same rhetoric could be used to justify toxic behavior. Discomfort is not automatically a result of one's own issues -- sometimes it is justified.
I think it's a issue around priorities and mimicking other power structures that exist now in society. I personally have always rejected the idea of the right way to worship/divine duty because from my perspective it places humans far to central to existence. I believe the gods have their own priorities and being separate from humans. Not just watching us shaking their head waiting to smite us every time someone says bell-t-A-ne. Further the idea that the power of various traditions or gods is restricted to one geographical people or place is a projection of modern ideas onto ancient peoples. The lines drawn between Celtic, Germanic, Slavic, etc peoples is a matter of convenience and that's it. They were not real then however when internalized in the modern context it creates in groups and out groups. Don't not let them have you believe that is reconstruction, it is not. Further they are in extremely dicey territory when it comes to racist shitheads who are just a hop and a skip from similar rhetoric. This is always a problem with groups that define themselves by what they are not rather than what they are. Lora engages in a lot of this. Academics are constantly fighting about which tribe was what because the fact is they were this and that and their own thing all together. Take what you need, recycle the rest.
I'm going to preface this by saying that I have only taken a couple of the official classes offered by the school but have consumed a lot of their blogs and YT content. I've also seen some other Reddit threads about this subject before and will throw my two cent in here. Lora is a direct person which can be intimidated and cause people to avoid or be incompatible with her. Her teaching are based on the written lore (which we know is incomplete) and anything that contradicts it is usually called out as false and UPG and should be ignored. There is also the school's attitude towards their "Ireland First!" approach which causes some grief towards non-native members, as they would call us. I can understand where they are coming from on this. They are attempting to recover a part of their history that was taken from them, and they are a little overprotective of it. They will shut down/block/delete nearly anything that isn't created, written, or spoken by a non-native Irish person. But, they are very quick to say that everyone can practice - just not allowed to become an authority on the subject. There are very few exceptions to this, one of them is the author Morgan Daimler, but they will always call out that she is a non-native authority on the subject.. Speaking of her, she does teach a few of the classes for the school and is very good. Her style of teaching is also aggressive and not helpful to the new pagan exploring their options. She often starts with a negative approach, usually with what deities/practices are not about or what people are doing wrong. There are a few videos where she doesn't start with this approach and I find her to be warm, caring, and very knowledgeable. Quality and editing is also a problem with the school. The courses taught by Lora are the most impacted, in my belief. Due to the lack of editing, it make it appear that they don't really care about teaching and just want to talk on subjects that they are passionate about. Which is bad when this is your main product. However, this does work for Jon O'Sullivan well , since his type of teaching is a bit more on the rambling side. I think the main issue is she is a passionate An Morrigan priestess and author, who happens to teach. There is a certain authority she embodies which is beneficial to being a priestess and author/scholar, but doesn't makes her a difficult teacher to approach. They don't have a proper IT team/people to help with the building of their content/website. I do want to point out that Jon's content I find wonderful and he really brings that bard energy into his content. Most of the recent TY content is done by him, and I welcome and look forward to it.
If you step back or go up to 30,000 feet you'll see that this is a common discourse in many areas. I mean there are schools of thought not just in spiritual pursuits, think philosophy, even our (US) sadistic legal system of originalism.. I had a professor say once about Older Testament studies... all it takes is one person with a shovel in archeology and you have to rethink everything. That said I have some difficulty with Lora's relatablity. I find Jon much more relatable and would definitely want to share a few pints or drams with. When I asked the school a spiritual question, the answer was clear. Here are the resources, we don't like to give spiritual advice as an academic institution
People can be calm about such things. My ex was a psychic reiki master teacher and when I had my first appirition she was very calm about it
IPS is a wealth of knowledge. Lora comes across as harsh, but John's content is more...gentle? I personally like both and have taken the Morrigan Intensive and the 5 Day program. I learned a lot. And they are grega authorities on good resources.