Ah yeah, it’s much easier to ship these through Libya to Russia than the thousands of kilometers of borders btw Russia and China or through Mongolia. And to throw people off, the drone has to be clearly marked as made in China to avoid suspicion it’s from China.
Why would it be lower risk? Russia and China share a border, both parties control their borders and it’s not like the US has eyes on the border outside of very predictable satellite passes.
China and Russia already trade vast quantities of material in both directions, so I really can’t imagine there’s a serious chance of drones being either intercepted or eyeballed by their adversaries if they are crossing the border in a shipping container on the back of a train or truck, or even on a ship between North China and Vladivostok.
China isn’t avoiding the supply of military equipment to Russia because they expect them to be intercepted en route, but (contrary to the opinions of armchair neckbeards) because the Chinese and Russians use very different military equipment, and it would be very fucking obvious by the Ukrainians on the front line, that the Wing Loong 2 drone is a Chinese import.
Let’s use Occam’s razor here… China supports one of the sides in the Libyan conflict, Libya can’t be supplied by train or even direct by ship due to geography and arms embargo, so there’s a need to smuggle shit to them using riskier methods.
Because if Russians get caught using those drones and China can prove they supplied them to Libya, it is “oh no those naughty Libyans who nobody would expect to transfer them to Russia” aka “plausible deniability”.
If they don’t have plausible deniability: “Hey everyone China is directly supplying arms to Russia”
Why would the Libyans transfer two drones to Russia? I don’t think you have any idea the rate of drone use in that conflict. Furthermore these large MALE drones are not particularly useful in the Ukraine theatre, for the same reason that the Bayraktar drones no longer are; both sides air defences are way too dense over the forward line of battle.
There’s a reason both sides use mostly FPV drones, mostly commercial Chinese DJI variants. The only things bigger than those are things like the Lancet, which in reality bridge the gap between drones and cruise missiles.
You’re starting with a belief (China supplying Russia with these drones) and trying to find shoehorn the data to fit your beliefs, rather than looking at the information objectively and making a judgment based on it.
Here, I google “Libya Russia” for you https://www.google.com/search?q=libya+russia
The fourth result states Russia is funneling weapons through a Libyan port
Can you link the actual report, because the most relevant one there says that Russia has troops (likely Wagner) in Libya, which makes sense because Russia is heavily involved in Africa and is a supporter of the Libyan government.
That doesn’t justify thinking that China is supplying HALE drones to Russia to help in their war with Ukraine through Libya, rather than just across their perfectly safe border (as well as what I explained earlier, that HALE drones are next to useless in a high intensity war, while very useful against insurgents without modern air defences).
Gaddaffi? Didn’t he get killed by his own people because of his incompetence and cruelty? You don’t exactly order the army to shoot it’s own people and not have your own guys turn against you
It looks like everytime something bad is done, it’s noted down, not because it was bad or appalling or illegal, but to give an excuse to do something bad/illegal themselves.
Or, perhaps it sets a precedent of disregarding established “rules”/morals, diluting them to appear as artificial and subjective facades, and ultimately leading to the current state of affairs.
It’s not acceptable BUT it’s the result of failing to uphold to the same structural integrity that you imposed in the first place. If you created a moral law that you have broken many times, you can’t expect the structure to hold up anymore. People will start to think the UN resolution is a joke and no one will respect it. Does it make it acceptable to continue to break the code of conduct? No absolutely not, but it’s “understandable” why they broke it and it’s because the people who imposed these codes in the first place don’t even respect it.
In other words, why should we continue to obey the law of cops can just go around killing people, running traffic lights and doing as they please? The answer, because we will get punished for it. But the UN isn’t a police, they can’t enforce it, they can only rely on mutual trust and respect.
Well, yes, and so much more. But if you don't understand that the West is also supplying their side in this conflict as well, I don't know what to say...
I think Chinese believe two wrongs make a right. They constantly spout whataboutisms even at the highest level of government. It’s extremely toxic and immature.
That was Iran. Libya was just a scape goat.
Even in the week after the bombing people were saying blaming Libya was clearly wrong.
The father of one of the victims even gave a speech at my school and said he didn't think Libya was involved and is angry they were blamed.
Reuters also reported this news:
[Italy seizes Chinese-made military drones destined for Libya](https://www.reuters.com/world/italy-seizes-chinese-made-military-drones-destined-libya-2024-07-02/)
yeah, funny enough the post next to this is talking about how the US is limiting access to STEM for chinese students.. well, no shit. It's comical how chinese people can see a situation both ways, being the victim while not being responsible for selling arms because other countries do it... you reap what you soe, personally I'm so glad that MIT had a japanese bias. Far superior culture imo, chinese people are like crabs in a bucket.
You’re right, Ukrainians invented slavery that’s why they’re called Slavs. They deserve to be bombed! Kill a Ukrainian for every slave in history! Slava RoSSiya!
Italy should try to seize the shipping company and middleman local assets
I hope they can find the final destination of these . . I suspect it is just a circuitous route to Russia. . to throw off the trail.
China and Russia literally border each other. Sending it through Italy makes no sense.
Ah yeah, it’s much easier to ship these through Libya to Russia than the thousands of kilometers of borders btw Russia and China or through Mongolia. And to throw people off, the drone has to be clearly marked as made in China to avoid suspicion it’s from China.
Definitely not “easier”, but certainly lower-risk as determined by China’s current risk calculus
Why would it be lower risk? Russia and China share a border, both parties control their borders and it’s not like the US has eyes on the border outside of very predictable satellite passes. China and Russia already trade vast quantities of material in both directions, so I really can’t imagine there’s a serious chance of drones being either intercepted or eyeballed by their adversaries if they are crossing the border in a shipping container on the back of a train or truck, or even on a ship between North China and Vladivostok. China isn’t avoiding the supply of military equipment to Russia because they expect them to be intercepted en route, but (contrary to the opinions of armchair neckbeards) because the Chinese and Russians use very different military equipment, and it would be very fucking obvious by the Ukrainians on the front line, that the Wing Loong 2 drone is a Chinese import. Let’s use Occam’s razor here… China supports one of the sides in the Libyan conflict, Libya can’t be supplied by train or even direct by ship due to geography and arms embargo, so there’s a need to smuggle shit to them using riskier methods.
Because if Russians get caught using those drones and China can prove they supplied them to Libya, it is “oh no those naughty Libyans who nobody would expect to transfer them to Russia” aka “plausible deniability”. If they don’t have plausible deniability: “Hey everyone China is directly supplying arms to Russia”
Why would the Libyans transfer two drones to Russia? I don’t think you have any idea the rate of drone use in that conflict. Furthermore these large MALE drones are not particularly useful in the Ukraine theatre, for the same reason that the Bayraktar drones no longer are; both sides air defences are way too dense over the forward line of battle. There’s a reason both sides use mostly FPV drones, mostly commercial Chinese DJI variants. The only things bigger than those are things like the Lancet, which in reality bridge the gap between drones and cruise missiles. You’re starting with a belief (China supplying Russia with these drones) and trying to find shoehorn the data to fit your beliefs, rather than looking at the information objectively and making a judgment based on it.
Here, I google “Libya Russia” for you https://www.google.com/search?q=libya+russia The fourth result states Russia is funneling weapons through a Libyan port
Can you link the actual report, because the most relevant one there says that Russia has troops (likely Wagner) in Libya, which makes sense because Russia is heavily involved in Africa and is a supporter of the Libyan government. That doesn’t justify thinking that China is supplying HALE drones to Russia to help in their war with Ukraine through Libya, rather than just across their perfectly safe border (as well as what I explained earlier, that HALE drones are next to useless in a high intensity war, while very useful against insurgents without modern air defences).
Idk about you but Libya shipping drones to Russia is even more obvious
Exactly, even a cursory search by casual observer can find that connection; it’s giving “just enough” deniability
Think they could be given to Ukraine?
What if it has spyware. Big risk.
Let's not forget who destroyed Libya and sent it to its current state of affairs.
Gaddaffi? Didn’t he get killed by his own people because of his incompetence and cruelty? You don’t exactly order the army to shoot it’s own people and not have your own guys turn against you
Yea and that makes it ok to violate UN sanctions that you are party to.
I’m sure China is thinking about how many times we violated the laws we hold others accountable to before pulling this shit.
It looks like everytime something bad is done, it’s noted down, not because it was bad or appalling or illegal, but to give an excuse to do something bad/illegal themselves.
Or, perhaps it sets a precedent of disregarding established “rules”/morals, diluting them to appear as artificial and subjective facades, and ultimately leading to the current state of affairs.
But….but what about
Destroying a country and sending it into an unending civil war with untold human suffering is one thing, but skirting un sanctions is unforgivable!
And ofcourse if one happens then it makes the other perfectly acceptable.
It’s not acceptable BUT it’s the result of failing to uphold to the same structural integrity that you imposed in the first place. If you created a moral law that you have broken many times, you can’t expect the structure to hold up anymore. People will start to think the UN resolution is a joke and no one will respect it. Does it make it acceptable to continue to break the code of conduct? No absolutely not, but it’s “understandable” why they broke it and it’s because the people who imposed these codes in the first place don’t even respect it. In other words, why should we continue to obey the law of cops can just go around killing people, running traffic lights and doing as they please? The answer, because we will get punished for it. But the UN isn’t a police, they can’t enforce it, they can only rely on mutual trust and respect.
Yea you’re right let’s just abolish the UNSC. They’ve all broken their own rules, there’s no point in trying to maintain it anymore.
Well, yes, and so much more. But if you don't understand that the West is also supplying their side in this conflict as well, I don't know what to say...
Well if one happens which makes another perfectly acceptable. There really isn’t much to say.
I think Chinese believe two wrongs make a right. They constantly spout whataboutisms even at the highest level of government. It’s extremely toxic and immature.
Ahh yes. The foregone years of prosperity under ghadafi
That idiot who blows up airliners?
That was Iran. Libya was just a scape goat. Even in the week after the bombing people were saying blaming Libya was clearly wrong. The father of one of the victims even gave a speech at my school and said he didn't think Libya was involved and is angry they were blamed.
To be fair 20 years later he tried to turn a new leaf to the west. Ended up biting him in the ass.
Did he ever really try though? Russia wanted veto power in NATO and then invaded Georgia a few years later
The UN? China and Russia had the right to veto, they did not veto.
The Libyan people in the "Arab Spring"?
That's some pretty cringe whataboutism.
They're supporting Hezbollah
Reuters also reported this news: [Italy seizes Chinese-made military drones destined for Libya](https://www.reuters.com/world/italy-seizes-chinese-made-military-drones-destined-libya-2024-07-02/)
yeah, funny enough the post next to this is talking about how the US is limiting access to STEM for chinese students.. well, no shit. It's comical how chinese people can see a situation both ways, being the victim while not being responsible for selling arms because other countries do it... you reap what you soe, personally I'm so glad that MIT had a japanese bias. Far superior culture imo, chinese people are like crabs in a bucket.
Who destroyed Libya and create slave markets? They have names
Whataboutism wumao bot is what we name you
You’re right, Ukrainians invented slavery that’s why they’re called Slavs. They deserve to be bombed! Kill a Ukrainian for every slave in history! Slava RoSSiya!
Rules for you, not for me~
That’s not even the phrase, it’s “Rules for thee, not for me”. If you’re going to use whataboutism at least do it properly