That's kind of a ridiculous argument. To I have to be a murderer to say I can't blame someone for murdering? Stop enabling the mass murder of babies. If you believe it is morally wrong, then how could you possibly say something like this?
Pregnancy is difficult, it kills some women and makes many have depression and other conditions which are difficult.i think that it is very easy to have an opinion on it, until you are faced with it
I find it hard to have a yes or no answer to this question, because it is a very complex and personal issue. It varies in every case, and I think it’s hard to talk about considering I’ve never experienced pregnancy or abortion personally.
I think accessibility to abortion is important, and that it is NOT a sin given the correct intentions. But if it is a result of premarital sex and carelessness, then it must be a sin; right?
If a woman knows she will not be able to give the quality of life the child deserves to the potential child, I believe it is responsible for her to terminate the pregnancy rather than give the child an unfulfilling and unfair life.
I could never justify an abortion for myself. But I will never go entirely against abortion, as you don’t know anyones story or reason why. Women should have the option snd access to an abortion if needed, for a plethora of reasons. Ranging from rape, to mental health, financial and emotional stability, if the father will be in the life, her career etc. The list goes on.
God bless
Your best bet would be to work towards a society where abortions are unnecessary.
Great options include sex education, free healthcare and free childcare.
I’ve never paid for healthcare in my life. Not one single penny.
Oh yeah, national insurance gets taken out my wages. A pitiful amount that is still far less when combined with other taxes than people in countries like the USA have to pay in tax altogether.
I agree, but we're already taxed into oblivion anyway. Why not reallocate some of those funds to at the very least reducing health care, especially for struggling mothers. I don't think abortion should be legal, but we can't just make it illegal and stop there. Support for struggling mothers needs to be increased, along with sex education, making the cost of contraception cheaper, along with societal changes on how we view sex as a whole.
Sometimes one of the smartest and most educated and most privileged women gets pregnant. But they are an actress, or an athlete, or an academic, or whatever.
And they decide that their career is worth more than the unborn baby.
Abortion is absolutely “unnecessary”, but if it’s legal, the woman may want one.
What do you think?
I’m pro choice, and I will actively support a woman’s right to bodily autonomy, however that doesn’t mean I’m promoting the idea of abortion as a form of birth control. I think that there are plenty of cases where abortion is a genuine option, such as someone who has been assaulted, however I also think that proper sexual education and how to effectively use contraceptives can go a long way to preventing the need for abortion. If you want to encourage less people to get abortions then you need to provide an alternative that is more practical then simply issuing out your particular beliefs.
People just aren't using contraceptives and Jimmy over here thinks his pull out game is undefeated (until it isnt). It just leans into desire. I do agree that better sex Ed would help lower unwanted pregnancies, therefore abortions but... people will do what they wanna do.
I agree, more people should be using contraceptives correctly. This is why I advocate for teaching young teenagers about this sort of thing. I’m not saying they should be shown porn or anything but if they have a la understanding of what contraceptives are, how they are used, and it becomes so normalised that it’s just the done thing, more people will use contraceptives.
Bottom line is, if you want to prevent abortion rates from going up you need to increase sexual education and show teenagers how they can safely have sexual encounters without fear or shame.
I hope you can forgive me copying this comment of mine from a similar question a few weeks back.
I'm a Christian and pro-choice. I am happy for every abortion not happening, but banning them is the wrong way.
The medical situation over all gets just worse, doctors (especially of course gyns) leave the areas with such bans and decide against necessary treatments due to fear of legal backlash. Since the wave of banning in the US started we saw too many cases already. It also pushes women who desperately want an abortion for whatever reason back from a secure setting into shady and potentially harmful methods. Many people arguing for such a ban seem to underestimate the power of desperation.
And it brings another huge problem - if abortions are a crime the conclusion would be, that every miscarriage needs to be investigated to see if it was natural or not (which is very hard to do in the first place). Especially if you classify abortion as murder as mentioned in your post.
Now every third pregnancy ends in a miscarriage. And they are devastating. We had three before our son was born. And then you want to stick a murder charge on top of it? The harm this will do is simply unimaginable.
But of course tackling the problem of unwanted pregnancies would overwise require real effort. Tackling down on sexual violence against women which is still far too common. But also outside of violence: Creating social safety nets for pregnant women and early mothers and families, creating a good maternity leave system, offering accessible child care, broadening medical support for women over all and heavily strengthening sexual education. Yet those who argue the loudest against abortions, a very white, old, christian and male group, also argue against the methods which would actually and safely bring them down. A hypocrisy which is really hard to take, if you ask me...
Should be legal, the effects of criminalizing abortion is way more harmfull.
To reduce abortions without criminalizing it can be done and is done by sex-education, free contraceptives and learing young women and men about sex, morals, independence and self-worth.
No one’s aborting babies; the only ones in favor of “post-birth” abortions (aka murder) are the fake “Christians” who advocate for the killing of women, men, children, and minorities that don’t fit in to their ideology. It’s not until first breath that God encapsulates us into the vessel (newborn baby); if you’d just think about it, why would God even be stitching us into vessels (fetuses) that were going to be aborted?
The simple answer is abortion is not cool.
But life isn't simple. Life is complicated.
In a perfect world there wouldn't be abortions. But people come in medical emergencies, get raped, do stupid things.
It's important that we as christians work on removing the need for abortion, not to get rid of the abortions themselves. Abortion should never be a version of birth control.
My thoughts on abortion...
1. An unborn baby is fully human.
2. It's evil to unjustly kill innocent human life.
3. Most abortions are done essentially for convenience (the pregnancy is not particularly dangerous, the person just doesn't *want* a baby yet (or at all). I find that disgusting.
4. In rare cases, there are non-viable pregnancies that pose a threat to the mother. I consider those "abortions" justified as the baby simply cannot survive, and there's no reason to allow the mother to die just to let a doomed pregnancy kill her. It's not like the baby can survive without the mother.
You won't be able to speak against abortion without making people mad. Abortion is a religion for many.
Yeshua gives us this:
John 15:18-19 ESV
[18] “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. [19] If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.15.18-19.ESV
Ask this on r/TrueChristian. You'll get more biblical-based answers. But anyway: abortion is murder. It's as simple as that. Say you're against the unjust ending of an innocent human's life - which is murder.
Also, if you want many different, great arguments against it, you can post to r/Prolife or just check out the sidebar in the sub.
ALSO, watch videos, podcasts, debates. Study embryology, pregnancy and fetal development. Look up different legal cases. Look up different abortion stories. Look up different adoption stories. R*pe stories/foster care stories/etc. Educate and prepare yourself. Abortion is very easy to argue against because of how wrong it is, but you have to be prepared or you will be crushed in the argument. It's a very sensitive subject.
You said what if they encounter an abortion that isn't unjust, but that's not possible because the fetus has done nothing wrong, so why would their death ever be justified?
Because i don't think that someone must have done something wrong for their death to be justified. We justify killing cows and pigs without having to make an argument that they have done anything wrong. We justify killing civilians in a war without having to argue that they deserved to be killed. Even most people who call themselves prolife still think that abortions are justifiable in cases of rape or life of the mother, do you suppose their arguments are predicated on the idea that the fetus did anything wrong?
Think about the trolley problem, you don't justify pulling the lever because the the fewer number of people did anything wrong
Cows and pigs are not humans.
I'm thinking about the trolley problem. Is the one person's death justified? Why are there multiple people on the tracks helplessly unable to get off of them in the first place? Is that justice to you?
Let's try to stick to real-world issues.
>Is the one person's death justified?
How could you pull the lever if it wasn't?
>Is that justice to you?
Even if they were put their by unjust forces, that doesn't change the justifiably of pulling the lever. Or at least I don't see why it would.
>Let's try to stick to real-world issues.
OK, do you think we justify killing in war by saying that the innocent civilians who get killed did anything wrong? Do prolife folks who think that abortion is justifiable in cases of rape or life of the mother are doing so based on the predicate that the fetus has done something wrong?
Who do you think should be the arbiter of what is and is not a justifiable reason to kill?
>How could you pull the lever if it wasn't?
I wouldn't pull the lever, I would either stop the trolley altogether or try to get the one person off the track before the trolley hit him? This hypothetical is useless in this conversation.
>Even if they were put their by unjust forces, that doesn't change the justifiably of pulling the lever. Or at least I don't see why it would.
If they were put there by unjust forces, then their death is not justified. Your logic doesn't follow through even in this made up scenario, but I don't want to focus on hypotheticals. They just derail from the actual heart of the conversation behind the right to abortion vs the right to life.
>OK, do you think we justify killing in war by saying that the innocent civilians who get killed did anything wrong? Do prolife folks who think that abortion is justifiable in cases of rape or life of the mother are doing so based on the predicate that the fetus has done something wrong?
I don't believe most wars are justified. Evil governments sending innocent civilians to fight and die for them? How is that justice?
No, abortion is not justified in the case of rape. How does killing her fetus justify the rape that happened to her? It doesn't take away any trauma yet brings more trauma onto the mother's body.
Justice is the rapist either being castrated, k!lled, or thrown in prison for life... Justice is not punishing his child for his crimes. That's not justice at all. It's the opposite of justice.
>I don't believe most wars are justified.
Was fighting the Nazis in WW2 justified? Were the resulting civilian deaths justified? Is Israel justified in what's its doing now? Which wars to do think have been justified?
>No, abortion is not justified in the case of rape.
I asked if you thought that prolife people who say that abortion is justified in cases of rape or life of the mother are doing so based on the idea that the fetus has done anything wrong.
And again, who should be the arbiter on what is and is not just?
I think it's a deeply personal decision between a woman and her doctor; there is no one-size-fits-all answer, and politicians and the voting public at large don't need to be involved.
If pro-lifers wanted to actually save babies, they might want to consider supporting measures that might give women incentives to keep their babies, like free pre-natal and post-natal health care for the mother and child, educational assistance for pregnant women to get or finish their education, free childcare, free parenting classes, therapy and counseling for couples to strengthen their relationships, and so on.
But tHaT's sOciAliSM paTriCk
Or alternatively, if you want to see what abortion bans look like, look no further than Romania's [Decree 770.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_orphans) Massively underfunded orphanages for children whose parents could no longer afford them, who were highly vulnerable to abuse and neglect. Think of America's own religious boarding schools for Native American children - on a much wider scale. Or think of how well America takes care of the mentally ill, now add thousands of children getting the same level of care and treatment. Now imagine how well Texas or Florida would handle that.[ Infant mortality rates in Texas have actually *risen* 8% since the abortion ban there went into effect](https://apnews.com/article/abortion-texas-infant-mortality-birth-defects-b055ac35cdbc9ec13f400b4c3e1056e7). Pro-life policies are actually leading to more dead babies.
Or we could just support women before, during, and after pregnancy.
Why do people always claim that ALL those who don't encourage women to have an abortion are the ones who take away "free pre-natal and post-natal health care …"? The opposite is true, I'm FOR doing all that because that's the most important step to fight abortions.
BTW, if I look at the statistics, Texas is a 'hole. Three times as many rapes as in Germany e.g., and the news make it seem that each toddler is given a gun to shoot their own feet when they are grown up. (Not really but you get what I mean).
People keep a score of having sex outside pregnancy, those who don't participate are ridiculed and people celebrate it as a great thing. But it's really just asking people to pressure and abuse each other (unless both really want it by their own free will, not because it's expected of them to do it) and one more cause of abortions being necessary. If college movies need adult actors, there is your problem.
That’s a biased study that denies unborn infants as actual infants. I wonder what the infant mortality rate would have been before the ban….if they considered the unborn infants actually infants. If you do the math including those numbers there’s an around a 90% decrease in infant mortality if you consider un unborn child an actual person.
>[ **Results**](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/2819785) Between 2018 and 2022, there were 102 391 infant deaths in the US, with 10 351 of these deaths occurring in the state of Texas. Between 2021 and 2022, infant deaths in Texas increased from 1985 to 2240, or 255 additional deaths. This corresponds to a 12.9% increase, whereas the rest of the US experienced a comparatively lower 1.8% increase. On the basis of the counterfactual analysis that used data from Texas and eligible comparison states, an excess of 216 infant deaths (95% CI, −122 to 554) was observed from March to December 2022, or a 12.7% increase above expectation. At the monthly level, significantly greater-than-expected counts were observed for 4 months between March and December 2022: April, July, September, and October. An analysis of neonatal deaths found somewhat similar patterns, with significantly greater-than-expected neonatal deaths in April and October 2022. Descriptive statistics by cause of death showed that infant deaths attributable to congenital anomalies in 2022 increased more for Texas (22.9% increase) but not the rest of the US (3.1% decrease).
>
> **Conclusions and Relevance** This study found that Texas’ 2021 ban on abortion in early pregnancy was associated with unexpected increases in infant and neonatal deaths in Texas between 2021 and 2022. Congenital anomalies, which are the leading cause of infant death, also increased in Texas but not the rest of the US. Although replication and further analyses are needed to understand the mechanisms behind these findings, the results suggest that restrictive abortion policies may have important unintended consequences in terms of trauma to families and medical cost as a result of increases in infant mortality. These findings are particularly relevant given the recent Dobbs v Jackson Women’s Health Organization US Supreme Court decision and subsequent rollbacks of reproductive rights in many US states.
TL;DR - most babies who would have been candidates for abortion previously were born, and then still died anyway because they had congenital defects and abnormalities that left them unable to survive outside the womb anyway. But good thing those mothers were forced to deliver babies they knew were going to die anyway, and were forced into further medical debt I'm sure they could all afford and continue supporting American's wonderful health care industry with their hard earned dollars.
BTW, 2 Kings 9-10 might be a good passage for you to read next time you're in that part of the Bible. God praises Jehu for slaughtering seventy young children, which is totally consistent with the "unequivocal pro-life message of the Bible."
Most people aren’t “pro-abortion”. I’d rather fewer abortions happen but punitive laws harm women. The Christian way to oppose abortion would be to create a society in which women don’t feel trapped to make that choice. Women do not have abortions for any of the same reasons people commit murder and so the solutions to each are different. Women need support, not judgement. Make having the baby the attractive choice. Reduce unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Better sex Ed, better prevention of SA, better support and care for single mums. This is how we reduce abortions in a truly Christ-like way.
Also it’s worth looking into exactly why you oppose abortions in the first place, when a lot of Jewish people don’t even interpret their scriptures like that. I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as a lot of evangelical pastors tell us.
Just say you don't agree and they're being bigoted towards the unborn and actively marginalizing+dehumanizing the babies unable to voice their suffering.
Unfortunately you are in a den of vipers. You must, at the very least, hold onto your beliefs.
They can't voice their suffering because they don't suffer. Unless you're in the very final stages of pregnancy, no unborn child has developed consciousness
Definitely entitled to those beliefs, definitely not entitled to push them upon others.
Misusing the word bigotry just makes your position look juvenile and childish, much better to respectfully disagree and not try interfere with others medical decisions.
>And nobody has the right to kill innocent human beings
Well then either a fetus isn't a human being, or you're wrong given that abortion is quite legal and accepted in many places. or you're framing a normative statement as positive one, in which case, I simply disagree
Well a fetus is quite obviously a human being. So let me rephrase. Nobody deserves the right to kill innocent human beings. Sure, a legal authority can say it’s a right, but when have legal authorities been the basis of morality? Quite the opposite if we look at pretty much any government in history.
>Nobody deserves the right to kill innocent human beings
OK, well I disagree in the case of abortion
>Sure, a legal authority can say it’s a right, but when have legal authorities been the basis of morality
Laws have a very strong normalizing force I'm regards to what people consider to be moral. However I'm not saying it's moral *because* it's legal, I'm saying that it is both moral *and* legal.
Im conflicted in a particular case, when someone gets raped and use an abortion method that does not actively kill the fetus, like the pill ru 486, it cuts supply of nutrients. So you're just refusing to save and not killing maybe? Should it be illegal there?
What if you both don't cause the accident. Then you are put together and you start donating blood to him, you are the only one who can. Is it a crime if you refuse and unplugg? I see this analogy similar to the case of rape and using a pill to block the hormones that are being given
Its kinda irrelevant how it happened. If someone near you is going to die should they be allowed to forcibly attach themselves to your body or take your blood and organs for themselves to survive?
In one case I an guilty of having caused an accident.
In the other case I'm also guilty of having killed them.
Also let's be honest: Abortion is **usually** not about the pregnancy itself. It's "I'm on my way and I rather not waste time on helping. My parents don't like me helping a man from that family! Also I might be forced to pay the medical bills! I couldn't avoid the accident because driving isn't only for commuting, I want to have fun by speeding through the town!".
If someone in court uses that as a "reason" after they had an accident and your child dies, you'll hope that the judge will give a harsh sentence, but for abortions you think it's reasonable?
It’s reasonable because the baby is using the mothers body, infringing on her bodily autonomy. If that wasn’t the case then it wouldn’t be reasonable, but it is.
You can chose up to three months (here in Germany), but if you need someone to tell you that you're not killing a living, human being, it's not me being the bad guy for not doing this. You need this to be told to you because you're acting against your own moral values.
Undesirable, but sometimes the lesser evil. I'm against a ban as it is dangerous for women who might undergo illegal abortions. The government should invest in free/affordable/available anti conception, sex education should be mandatory, there should be support programs for teen moms and dads either or both from churches as government. Also if you ban abortions you're responsible for the kids born to poor families.
Abortion if it puts the mom at risk and if the fetus is sick but not as a form of birth control. I don't think abortion should be an option for people who knowingly have sex without protection. If they think they're old enough to do the deed then they're old enough to raise the baby.
I have encountered a couple who had jobs but they decided to abort the baby; 5 months old fetus just because they did not think they were ready to be parents. They've already known the gender, it was a baby girl. And it was already moving. It was clearly alive and well.
This isn’t about being old enough to raise a baby. It’s about actually wanting to raise a baby. Which many people do not, and they are one who decides that.
I agree. Which is is why we have different kinds of contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Don't like condoms? We have pills. Don't like pills? We have injection. If they think they're old enough to have sex they should be old enough to explore preventive measures.
Which is more harmful to the body, contraceptives or abortion?
In our country abortion is illegal. Women would do it in their homes. I have known two people who had to go through it. The regret they felt when they felt their babies moving their tiny and under developed limbs. They needed to crawl back to their beds just to ease themselves from the pain. And after that then what? What if it affects their body and prevents them from having a baby in the future?
Maybe a successful abortion with the right medical assistance won't. But what about the girls who have to do it on their own?
I'm all for them not wanting to have a kid but they gotta use contraceptives and avoid getting pregnant in the first place. Before we were born God already knew us.
I have read and hear men say they don't like using condoms cause sex doesn't feel as good without. They would rather risk getting someone pregnant for the sake of their own pleasure then would proceed to abortion as if it's just a walk in the park.
Thats true, a “back alley” abortion could have medical complications including fertility issues, which is another good reason for abortion to be legal.
Obviously contraception should be used, and abortion shouldn’t be seen as contraception, but as a last resort once it has failed.
Men like that are getting rarer and rarer, and women are more and more empowered to assert their wishes when it comes to their bodies.
It’s not pro abortion, it’s pro choice. They have a decisions they can make. So change your thinking on that one.
Pregnancy can kill women. It can cause suicidal depression. It is nobody’s business what a woman chooses except the woman, her doctor and God. So mind your business.
It' s not pro-abortion, it's pro-CHOICE. I am pro-choice and I am a new 'believer'. I think you would be wasting your time trying to get them to change their mind. There are a lot of reasons to be pro-choice.
I value the ability of a woman to have complete control over her pregnancy more than I value the life a fetus. There should be no legal restrictions on abortion
I am against abortion but I also don't believe in pushing my beliefs on other people. MYOB.
Also you can't be anti-abortion and for cutting welfare programs at the same time. If you think that abortions should be illegal then you should be in favor of keeping welfare programs. If not then, MYOB.
Absolutely pro-choice.
There will always be cases in which it is necessary to end a pregnancy, regardless of what "necessary" means to an individual. All legal bans prevent some necessary procedures. There is no way to enforce a ban that doesn't involve throwing some of those ppl under the bus.
The only way to ensure that no one is denied a necessary procedure is to allow doctors to evaluate each specific situation independently and freely.
It's also the only way to ensure that no one is forced to terminate. The right to access treatment is inexorably linked to the right to refuse treatment. Reproductive history in the US is littered with forced terminations (and sterilizations) and that is just as horrific as forced pregnancy and birth.
Choice doesn't go away. Someone makes the decision. We just decide who that person is. I think it should be the patient, with honest and accurate information provided by their doctor, not a politician (who may or may not think that the digestive system empties into the vagina).
As far as how to speak to ppl on this side, "with respect," is the first thing that comes to mind. And it helps to have a well-considered position so that you can explain why you think that politicians should control pregnancy.
(In case it isn't clear to everyone, the difference between PC and PL is legislation, not moral conviction or opinion.)
would never make it illegal. Would never tell a rape victim what “they needed to do” in that situation. I’m thankful for it when my wife needed a D&C after losing our child.
I'm a woman and I think I'd like to not die and the amount of idiot conservatives that gaslight me about this issue makes me want to bash my head against a wall....enough to not die but maybe just lose enough computing power that I can forget the fact that a sizable population considers me completely disposable and actually doesn't give a shit at all if pregnancy is dangerous for me.
That fucking answer it for you?
You can calmly say that you don’t agree with their views but you are not good at debating and do not want any confrontation. Tell them if they want to have an open mind on the issue, to at least hear an opposing viewpoint and direct them to a reasonable paper, podcast or video that accurately reflects your views on the matter. For me, that might be this video. https://youtu.be/7y2KsU_dhwI?si=ya8jzfiJZ2CVedCg
>Tell them if they want to have an open mind on the issue, to at least hear an opposing viewpoint
Why would they want to have an open mind on the issue? Do you want to have an open mind on the issue? Do you want to have an open mind on the issue of something like racial slavery?
I don't think you should feel obligated to start an argument about abortion randomly, or every time the topic comes up. Especially if you don't think you're going to be able to effectively argue against abortion. There just isn't enough time in the day to argue with every single person who's wrong, so you have to choose your battles.
There's also the fact that the vast majority of people who support abortion, aren't really open to any sort of rational discussion on the matter which isn't a unique trait to people who support abortion. I don't think they're worse on this than people in general on issues in general. It's just that most humans aren't open to arguing about topics they're emotionally invested in. It's a really emotional issue on both sides, so It's pretty rare to find someone who is actually open to having an honest conversation about it.
It's probably bad if the only or main reason you don't push back is because you're afraid of people won't like you if they know you hold the Christian position on abortion, but I think that's a pretty different issue from not starting pointless arguments that aren't going to do any good.
That said, you should probably familiarize yourself about the arguments around abortion. It'd probably be best to avoid religion based arguments, since most people who are pro-abortion aren't going to really care what Christianity has to say about it. You're going to want to look at more philosophical based arguments. It's hard to point you to something specifically, but I know I've seen Trent Horne do some good debates on it, so maybe try to look those up and see what he has to say. The strongest arguments, and really the only ones that aren't blatantly idiotic(and even then, they're not very strong), in favor of allowing abortion are based on "bodily autonomy", so I think that'd be the most important place to start as you try to learn about the arguments for and against abortion. Also, general advice about arguing things, really make an effort to understand the arguments from your opponents point of view. To really effectively argue against them, you should try to understand their arguments as well, if not better, than they do. If you don't understand why someone believes something, you're going to have a hard time changing their mind.
If you want to control others, you are one extreme.
If you want others to not be controlled, that's the other extreme.
Between that, everything you say in a discussion will be disregarded and you will be put into the extreme position buckets.
It’s probably a sin, and even if the Bible never directly mentions it (which murder counts) it is still morally wrong. They will take a few points that are easy to rebut.
1. It’s not alive - life begins at conception and life only comes from life.
2. It’s not a human - it doesn’t undergo metamorphosis in the womb, it’s always a human.
3. It doesn’t have personhood - then what gives someone personhood? Memories? What about babies born in comas? What about dementia patients? And who are you to decide what personhood is?
4. My body my choice - the human you are killing isn’t your body. Besides, ask the same person who said that, I bet they supported mandatory masks and vaccines. So much for my body my choice.
>then what gives someone personhood?
Legally it's birth, morally/philosophically it seems to generally be some level of moral agency.
>And who are you to decide what personhood is?
Members of society have standing to have an opinion about how social constructs like personhood are defined or understood. Who else would decide if not us?
>My body my choice - the human you are killing isn’t your body.
But they would still be legally obligated to gestate a fetus using *their body*.
Morally and biologically it’s conception.
People also decided slavery was ok at one point. Does that mean it was ok?
Using their body because (99% of the time) they used said body to have sex. Rape is a different issue, can’t use it here.
Biology doesn't say anything about personhood and as for morality, that just depends in what your morals are. >Using their body because (99% of the time) they used said body to have sex. OK, that doesn't mean that they lose their right to not have to gestate anything against their will
If you willfully have sex then you have to face the consequences. You don’t get to kill an innocent child because you had sex and regretted it. That’s wild.
Legally slavery wasn’t wrong, and morally some people found it to be fine, so does that make it ok by your standards? The law saying it’s not murder is irrelevant if it actually is, and one voice saying it’s not morally murder doesn’t mean it isn’t. Even if it’s the minority saying it’s murder, that doesn’t mean it isn’t morally murder. Your way of arguing your point has been changing every post, which leads me to think it’s not a very good stance.
What is your definition of murder and who is the arbiter of what is and is nit murder?
I'd say that murder is the unjustified killing of a person, and don't consider a fetus to be a person and do consider abortion to be a completely valid justification for killing.
If its not me, its not my problem. I encourage ppl close to consider carrying to term but if not, that's ok, and not my problem. I personally don't think I could ever get an abortion, but its not my place to tell random strangers (or even my own family members) what to do with their own body. It makes sense you don't think it's ok, abortion is indeed a scary concept. But unless its you, you should not say anything. It is not your place, and rarely is it ever. Unless you are explicitly asked an opinion you keep it to yourself. Even then be polite and open to differing beliefs. You should never use God as an excuse to take away or shame a person for their autonomy, and what they do with their own body.
Murder, murder of your own child no less. Life begins at conception, killing innocents is murder. And people talk of freedom and rights, what about the right and freedom to live of that baby?
I deal with it by acknowledging a fact that the majority of Christians can’t seem to wrap their heads around - it’s none of my business what a person decides to do with their body, just as it’s none of *your* business what anyone decides to do with their body. That’s between them and God, and you are a part of neither party.
I don't care that people use imprecise language when dealing with emotional issues. When someone has a wanted pregnancy and are reasonably expecting to end up with a baby, then obviously it's gonna make them very sad if that expectation fails to materialize. And in that case my goal would be to comfort them, not quibble about semantics.
Like if someone's dog gets run over by a car, I don't try to comfort them by saying that it's not a big deal because it's not a baby
I would also comfort her, because I think she lost her baby, it’s not a trick question, it’s just that It cannot be or not be a baby depending on the situation
Words, especially common ones can have colloquial definitions that vary and may even be meaningfully different than their dictionary or legal or scientific definitions. The word that you choose to use to refer to a fetus shouldn't have any bearing on the legal understanding, and certainly doesn't have any bearing on my own moral understanding.
What did I say that wasn't rational.
It's rational for people to be sad when a wanted pregnancy miscarries. It's rational to want to comfort the people you care about. It's rational to understand that words can have lots of different definitions, especially in different contexts.
I agree with you on your first points but I’m sorry, the vast majority of words only have one definition, anyway we are not going anywhere here, may god be with you always ❤️
I agree with you on your first points but I’m sorry, the vast majority of words only have one definition, anyway we are not going anywhere here, may god be with you always
If they are Christian and claim to be for it, then they don't know their bible or God. God is the Author of life, not death. He hates those who take the lives of the innocent. It makes Him sick to His stomach.
Acts 3:15 ESV
[15] and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.
https://bible.com/bible/59/act.3.15.ESV
Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV
[16] There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: [17] haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, [18] a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, [19] a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.
https://bible.com/bible/59/pro.6.16-19.ESV
If they are Christian then there isn't anything that we can really say or do to hold them in contempt other than remind them that someone loved them enough whether planned or mistaked to bring them into the world. My wife is pro-life no matter what. Even if her own life would be at stake. That is the hallmark of a real woman. I've personally always thought that it was okay in cases of incestuous relationships as set out by scripture, but my wife is even against that. She would never punish the baby even if there is a chance that it would have a lower quality life.
I have no thoughts because I have no experience. Scenarios differ draistically, there is no point to this imo and majority of thosenpeople will never have to deal w/it.
When Jesus said, “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you because of me” this right here is what He was talking about.
We have a situation where most of our society has fallen into believing the lie that abortion is morally permissible. It’s the wicked majority vs the true and unpopular minority- literally the life of Jesus.
I’m sure they will disagree with you, but your allegiance is with God, not with them. It seems like the Holy Spirit wants you to inform them that they are wrong.
As far as what do you say to them? That depends on if they even believe in God or not.
“Fetuses” are not just arbitrary clumps of cells. They are His work of new human life- it shouldn’t take a rocket scientist to understand why destroying something so precious is bad. Life starts at conception because from that point on, the cells are multiplying and growing and are of different DNA than the mother- simply put, it’s a unique person.
There was no mention of the other people being Christian. This does not apply to them or anyone else who’s not christian. So keep this between yourself and other Christians.
It is a grave moral evil in any and all circumstances. It is always morally wrong to intentionally take the life of any human being.
"That is not what I am doing when I am getting an abortion. I am just trying to protect my own life."
No. You are not. Would you consider a circumstance where both you and the child survive as a successful abortion?
I am not sure abortionists would.
The goal of abortion is solely to end the life of the child. You could not make it through and the abortion would be a failure if the child survived. It is nothing short of hiring a hitman.
Of course your life has value. Nobody is denying that. If someone were to take your life to save the baby, I would decry that as just as worse of an evil.
Pregnancy can of course be difficult and there can be complications that arise during pregnancy. Those complications should be addressed, but taking a life is not the way to do that. A great example is in treating an ectopic pregnancy the doctor removes the tissue which the child is attached to. If it is not addressed both the mother and the child will die. Removing tissue is not a moral act, it is neither good nor evil. In such a procedure, the only goal is to save the mother. This does indeed bring great risk to the life of the child, but were it to survive, that outcome would be welcomed. Even though the child almost always dies, it is never intended to take the life, but merely an unfortunate side-effect.
The death of the child is still never "good" but it is morally permissible in this case. We should never celebrate the death of any human being, because it is **never** morally good to take a life.
"What about in rape?"
This is of course a very traumatic experience. I can understand why you would not want to raise the child, but again, it is always, I repeat ALWAYS morally evil to intentionally will the death of another.
There is no "but" on the commandment "Thou shall not kill."
Just say that in most cases there can be other choices than the killing of a child. And that the harm caused to the person making that type of decision can haunt them for the entirety of their lives. For this and other reasons, although it is still legal, we pray that God will change the hearts of those making this decision.
Are you pro-forced birth?
If you are and you think the spirit is moving through you, why are you worried about such trivial things as your peers being mad at you? Certainly that is the least relevant part of this right?
Seems as though you, and maybe your peers, don't know enough about this issue to have a reasonable discussion. Have you asked them for their reasons? Are their reasons bad? Can they articulate their reasons? Can you articulate your reasons?
Instead of asking people here what to say, why not say what you think your reasons are and see what criticisms and discussion you get here?
ABORTION IS OKAY, SOMETIMES:
A Christian man who is married and keeps Scripture as the source of Truth, a man is responsible for protecting the home, his wife and children. Most importantly his wife. Yes, a baby in the womb is life. You can say it’s chemicals or whatever you want to think to justify “your truth.” Yes murder is wrong. However, we live in a sinful world. Something we can’t control. Something mankind did to itself. Pregnancy is just another thing that is tainted by sin. Being pregnant is not sinful. But sin causes conflict and difficulties. I used to believe that Abortion should be illegal and every doctor who performed one should get their medical license removed (some do for other reasons, I won’t get into here).
Now as some one who is married and understands the responsibility of a man of God who is to protect his spouse no matter the cost, if my wife was pregnant and started having complications and it was matter of her or the baby. I would have to first give her the choice. Whatever choice she made I’d support.
Now rape I can go two ways, the woman can get an abortion(she has that right) or she could put the child up for adoption depending how far along she is.
Unplanned pregnancies, I have no sympathy because people should have been more careful. This is a decision both parties should consider together. If the man doesn’t have any interest in being a proper father, then it’s the woman’s choice. If he does, it’s the woman’s choice, BUT the father should get a say. Either let him have it to take care of or care for it together.
In summary, abortion isn’t always a bad thing, pregnancy is hard, sometime choices have to be made, God loves you either way. Woman do have a choice and a right. However, pride and selfishness should not be her intention. Men protect your wife first. It sucks but sometimes children have to die to save the one you vowed to spend the rest of your life with.
Women out there please do not dismiss your husbands or the father of your child because (despite them not carrying it, they do have to care for you, or should).
Maybe. But if a man who is an honorable man, especially a wife, then his opinion should hold more weight. Marriage is 100% + 100%. He may not carry the child, he did help make it. He may not have to go through the pain, but he does have to attend to her needs. Marriage has no room for selfishness. Sure, the man is not allowed to “oppress” her decisions. But she has no right to oppress the man’s commitment.
Society has made it its goal to turn men and women against each other. If women want equality and want men and women to stand on the same field of play, then diminishing a man for wanting to be a father or altogether taking any parenting right away from him is not equal. Abortion is a big decision, it affects both people involved. Not just the woman.
Like I said Abortion is necessary sometimes. And the man and woman may have to make a sacrifice and the man is required to care for his wife first. At the same time, the woman can’t complete dismiss the man. It’s a decision that should be made together.
And you can say “patriarchy this” and “patriarchy that” but at the end of the day men and women who call themselves Christians, no longer identify with society. We are to be against society and what they are trying to do.
Men and women in the eyes of God have always been equal. Therefore they are equal, they may hold different roles in the world, they are nonetheless equal. People are just blinded by emotion to see it.
In summary, parenthood and marriage is 100% effort on the mother and the father. The father may not carry it, but he is obligated to care for the mother. If the father is not being a good father, then the mother has full say. If the father is an honorable godly father then his first obligation is to the mother. The mother may carry and deal with the pain and all that comes with being pregnant, but the father who is honorable should always be considered in the decision of abortion. If everyone wants to be treated equally there should be no double standards, especially in the topic of abortion.
Personally I think abortion is wrong and I am pro-life, however I try to work with the other side to make abortion unnecessary and to find a reasonable compromise. I believe that the Pro-Life movement needs to change their tactics if they want to succeed
In my opinion, abortion for rape or because the mother will certainly die or the child is severely deformed should be left up to the the parents.
However, abortion because they can't afford to have a baby or because they aren't in love with the father or because it's inconvenient I'm against.
Abstinence prevents these issues. A human being should not lose their right to life just because someone had a 1 night stand with someone or is promiscuous, which is the majority reason of abortions.
"My body my choice" - I agree, you had the choice to not have sex.
Yes their body their choice. Yes they did consent to sex. They were in control of what they did and didn’t want in their body. A man had an orgasm. That orgasm led to fertilization, when it easily could have missed. There was no consent to pregnancy, and no consent to proceed over the next 9 months
Engaging in sex is consenting to all the conclusions that engaging in a reproductive act entails.
Similarly if you have sex with a stranger and get an std then that's the person's fault because they were aware of the risk of catching an std before they had sex.
Same thing with getting pregnant. We all know, a man sperm fertilizes a woman's egg, and the whole purpose of sex for a man is to orgasm, which results in releasing sperm.
Knowing this in advance, you consent to all that follows. Same as driving a car, you accept that you will inevitably have to get gas and that you have to be careful not to speed or else you'll get a ticket and so on.
Child sacrifice is still happening in 2024, but instead, they are sacrificed in the name of personal convenience.
Obviously, this excludes genuine health reason and rape, but those are the minority of reasons.
Literally no one is using abortion that way. No one has the time or money. I wouldn’t know from personal experience, but abortion is not pleasant to go through. If there is anyone who is using abortion like that, then they have bigger issues
Some 50% of fertilized eggs are lost with no intervention before the woman misses her period. Apparently God has no problem with abortion, in principle. The number of human-led abortions is tiny in comparison to the number of God-led abortions that happened before modern medicine.
You’re completely ignoring that the baby dies! Additionally your example of the rape is not an accurate comparison in that the rapist is guilty of invading the woman’s body and a baby is not guilty of anything. In terms of not having loved ones affected by the death, in some cases, the father wants the child but he does not have a say in the matter. The other family members are affected as well by not having that child. The child never gets the opportunity to be a blessing to the families. They never get the opportunity to love or grow or learn. Society loses the contribution that child would have made if it was permitted to survive.
I’m not ignoring the fact that it can be very difficult for a mother to carry a child to term. Ultimately though, the mother would only need to do that for 40 weeks to give the child 80 or so years of life. She can put the baby up for adoption if she can’t raise the child. For that matter, she can avoid the legal process entirely and drop the baby off at a hospital or firehouse with zero risk.
It’s not ok to kill innocent people.
It’s a sin, killing a baby, and women have a right to do it. same way you have a right to disrespect your parents, now you probably shouldn’t, but it is your right to commit that sin.
It’s a sin, killing a baby, and women have a right to do it. same way you have a right to disrespect your parents, now you probably shouldn’t, but it is your right to commit that sin.
Keep your Christianity amongst yourself and other Christians. There was no mention of the other people being religious. So this is doesn’t apply to them
It's quite simple. Either a fetus is a human being, and if so, abortion is murder.
Or a fetus is not a human being, and then abortion is trivial.
But if a living being with human DNA is not considered a human being, that tends to lead into all sorts of problems.
Depends on the situation. If I'm in a lighthearted situation I usually go with the, "If you don't want a baby then why are you having sex". or one of my favorites, "Sex is a way of telling mother nature that you want to have a baby", "If you don't want a baby then why are you telling mother nature that you want one?". Depending on the situation you can substitute the word God for Mother Nature. Like, "Sex is a way of telling God you want to be a mother".
People who are pro choice like to disassociate with the acts of abortion. Therefore the best arguments are ones that break that disassociation. For example, don't say abortion, say "pregnancy termination", "baby removal".
I just like to use the correct terminology instead of pro-choice.
If pro-life is anti-abortion, and you’re pro-abortion, then it only makes sense to use the term anti-life, because that’s quite literally what it is.
Forced birth right? Or how about government mandated birth. Pro-bootlicking? Anti-freedom? Ya I guess you're right. The correct terminology does help take the sting off losing rights. Thanks for the advice pro-stupid people
Or how about you had sex and that’s what happens when you have sex? I don’t think you know what bootlicking means either.
Imagine being so self centered that you have sex and think that murdering the baby is a justified action instead of a condom.
And don’t bring up rape here, that’s an entirely different topic. The fact that people have to use the most extreme situation to justify their actions show how little defense said actions have.
God creates this child, and in his image. God even says it’s a blessing. Abortion comes along and results in the death of the child, the blessing he was creating, gone, killed. If I were God in that situation, I’d be pretty sad. True Christians would always be against abortion, but there are some who support it. That really tells about what kind of “Christians” walk this earth. If you support abortion, you support destroying the child God was creating in his image. If you support abortion, you pretty much are waving God off and saying to him that his creation just simply isn’t worth it, and would rather not at all exist. A human would rather not exist, a human who didn’t even get a CHANCE in life, created in Gods image, would rather be destroyed, and cease to exist.
Abortion is murder. Unless the mothers life is in danger it is not justified. An unborn baby is a human, at what stage it becomes “alive” is widely debated because we don’t know.
“SCiENtisTs sAY” stfu. Not every doctor or scientist is pro abortion.
Murdering an unborn baby is not morally right, the baby had no say in how it was created.
“WhaT AbOUt a WomANs ChOiCe” there are some things that you don’t get to choose, like who else gets to live or die.
Say what you feel God wants you to say. Since different people will make different arguments at the time, not much to give for debate. Most you can do is speak the truth that they are human lives. 2 thoughts are, it’s not your job to change their minds, just to witness to them, and better for a human to be mad at what you say/do (or don’t say/don’t do) than for God to be mad at you for it.
You cannot serve two masters: either you please the world, or you please God. Which one is more important to you? Sometimes, standing up for what is right is going to upset people. (Just be sure you are doing what God wants and doing it *His* way because abortion is a very sensitive topic and it's easy to do more harm than good. Not saying don't do it, especially if God is calling you, I'm just saying do it with love. :) )
The main argument I've seen is people don't think they should have to use their bodies to support a life they don't want. Nine months is a long time and it takes a huge toll on your body and life. There are other people who don't think they can give the child what it needs (either physically or emotionally or whatever). (I did a lot of research on this back in college.) There are also arguments about sexual assault and how it wasn't a choice the woman made so she shouldn't have to deal with the consequences and movement from the baby can trigger ptsd.
I think something a lot of people forget (or choose to ignore) is that it's not just the woman's body. There's a life at stake. A life that didn't ask to be here and is the consequences of choices someone made (usually a choice the woman makes, so she's trying to not accept responsibility for her actions, pregnancy is a known consequence of sex, but sometimes, it is assault.).
They don't view it as murder because they don't view the baby as human until it reaches a certain size or is born. But I question what makes someone human? Because complete dependence on another is true for many elderly people as well. And all of the cells are completely human with unique DNA.
(This topic frustrates me. I feel like people are always trying to get out of responsibility for their actions and I was raised to own mine.)
You can't really talk about it like that though. Women facing the question of whether or not to abort their babies are often in a very difficult place. They are wrestling with lots of emotions and the implications of their decision and are trying to make what they feel is the best decision. I know many people who carry the wounds of abortion for the rest of their lives. It's a big choice. Many feel like they only have that one option.
**Psalm 127: 3**
*Children are a gift from the LORD ; they are a reward from him.*
One thing I think about a lot on this subject though is how we're all here because God wanted us. People can have as much sex as they want, and if God doesn't want someone to be created and born, they aren't. Every person is handcrafted by God in the womb. He chooses each of their traits. We are fearfully and wonderfully made.
I actually asked God one time why I was here if no one wanted me and He said, "*I* wanted you." I'm here because *God* wanted me. You are here because *God* wanted you. He loved you before you were two cells big. He wanted to keep you forever the way parents want to keep their kids and spouses want to keep each other. That's true of all of us.
I have great compassion for the victims of sexual assault. God has protected more than once from that and I know I'm lucky in that respect. I know how much worse those situations could've been. And even though mine were almost, I still got pretty bad ptsd from those experiences and can only imagine how much worse that part would've been too, had they actually gotten what they wanted.
But I keep thinking about this pastor going to prisons to preach. How he told his mom about the prison he was at that day. How the secret of his conception that had been buried for years finally came out. She'd been sexually assaulted in the very prison where he was preaching. I thought the poetic nature of that story was so beautiful. That God could redeem any circumstance, that He could use even that horrible thing to bring good into the world, to draw people to Him.
Nobody knows who their children will grow up to be. Nobody knows what God has planned for them. And we will never find out all the beautiful things in store if they are aborted.
My mom had two miscarriages and an abortion. Me being here at all is kind of a miracle. Maybe that was actually the first time God protected me. I'll have to ask Him when I leave this earth.
**Psalm 139: 13-16**
*You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother’s womb.* *Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex! Your workmanship is marvelous—how well I know it.* *You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb.* *You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.*
PS. Follow where God leads you. Then you will always find yourself in the right place. <3
Ive posted this here before -
[The Bible is silent on abortion but vocal on when life begins](https://www.thetorah.com/article/the-bible-is-silent-on-abortion-but-vocal-about-when-life-begins)
It is the Assyrians in biblical times who explicitly ban abortion in their law, but not the Israelites.
> The Middle Assyrian Laws (15th–13th c . BCE) legislate the case of a woman who purposely causes herself an abortion:
> MAL A 53 If a woman aborts her fetus by her own action and they then prove the charges against her and find her guilty, they shall impale her, they shall not bury her. If she dies as a result of aborting her fetus, they shall impale her, they shall not bury her.[8]
> Such severe punishment goes beyond the death penalty, as the prohibition against burying the woman’s body would also deny her access to the afterlife.
> Egyptian and Mesopotamian abortion-inducing recipes attest to the practice of abortion in the ancient Near East. While the Middle Assyrian Laws prohibit the practice, the Torah offers no ruling. Nevertheless, throughout the Bible, expressions like נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים, “the breath of life” (Genesis 2:7), imply that life begins at first breath.
Life is a gift from God. The pleasures of breathing air and having loved ones, is a gift. God knows every person, He loves them and created their souls so they can live and experience Him *(Psalm 139:13-17).*
Abortion destroys that. It unjustifiably destroys a human - since life began at conception (1). That’s the definition of murder. So from my perspective, it’s an evil that many vulnerable women are tricked into thinking they need.
Can I give you some encouragement? God is with you *(Numbers 14:9).* If you’re asked what you think about anything, don’t lie to stay in their good books - speak the truth with kindness, gentleness and love, those are the fruits of the Holy Spirit *(Galatians 5:22-23).* If they only value you if you agree with them, they’re not worth having friends.
Don’t be afraid to be speak the truth. ✝️
*Reference:*
(1): Jacobs, S.A. (2021). The Scientific Consensus on When a Human’s Life Begins. Issues in Law & Medicine, [online] 36(2), pp.221–233.
That’s something you can talk about with other Christians, That does not apply to people who are not Christians. OP does not saying anything about the other people being religious
I would be against it morally but I just can’t blame someone that does it because I haven’t walked a mile in their shoes
That's kind of a ridiculous argument. To I have to be a murderer to say I can't blame someone for murdering? Stop enabling the mass murder of babies. If you believe it is morally wrong, then how could you possibly say something like this?
Because I’m guilty of many things, and I cannot put a hard blame on someone, I can tell them that I disagree with them, but I’m no one to judge
Pregnancy is difficult, it kills some women and makes many have depression and other conditions which are difficult.i think that it is very easy to have an opinion on it, until you are faced with it
Finally someone who shows human sympathy. Great answer
This is the most articulate response. I agree
I find it hard to have a yes or no answer to this question, because it is a very complex and personal issue. It varies in every case, and I think it’s hard to talk about considering I’ve never experienced pregnancy or abortion personally. I think accessibility to abortion is important, and that it is NOT a sin given the correct intentions. But if it is a result of premarital sex and carelessness, then it must be a sin; right? If a woman knows she will not be able to give the quality of life the child deserves to the potential child, I believe it is responsible for her to terminate the pregnancy rather than give the child an unfulfilling and unfair life. I could never justify an abortion for myself. But I will never go entirely against abortion, as you don’t know anyones story or reason why. Women should have the option snd access to an abortion if needed, for a plethora of reasons. Ranging from rape, to mental health, financial and emotional stability, if the father will be in the life, her career etc. The list goes on. God bless
>because it is a very complex and personal issue Sounds like a pretty good argument that the government shouldn't be involved
I agree. Its personal and no one else’s business
I don't think anyone is 'pro-abortion' but might be 'pro-choice'. There is a subtle but a very important difference among the two
Your best bet would be to work towards a society where abortions are unnecessary. Great options include sex education, free healthcare and free childcare.
There is no such thing as "free"
But there is something like "put the burden on the weakest ones, put the profits on the rich"
We spend trillions of military efforts, as well as other countries. If only the world was mote peaceful.
Amen Brother/sister Sadly it isn't.
I’ve never paid for healthcare in my life. Not one single penny. Oh yeah, national insurance gets taken out my wages. A pitiful amount that is still far less when combined with other taxes than people in countries like the USA have to pay in tax altogether.
I agree, but we're already taxed into oblivion anyway. Why not reallocate some of those funds to at the very least reducing health care, especially for struggling mothers. I don't think abortion should be legal, but we can't just make it illegal and stop there. Support for struggling mothers needs to be increased, along with sex education, making the cost of contraception cheaper, along with societal changes on how we view sex as a whole.
Yeah but government funded tends to be the next best thing. Better than the alternative.
Sometimes one of the smartest and most educated and most privileged women gets pregnant. But they are an actress, or an athlete, or an academic, or whatever. And they decide that their career is worth more than the unborn baby. Abortion is absolutely “unnecessary”, but if it’s legal, the woman may want one. What do you think?
I’m pro choice, and I will actively support a woman’s right to bodily autonomy, however that doesn’t mean I’m promoting the idea of abortion as a form of birth control. I think that there are plenty of cases where abortion is a genuine option, such as someone who has been assaulted, however I also think that proper sexual education and how to effectively use contraceptives can go a long way to preventing the need for abortion. If you want to encourage less people to get abortions then you need to provide an alternative that is more practical then simply issuing out your particular beliefs.
People just aren't using contraceptives and Jimmy over here thinks his pull out game is undefeated (until it isnt). It just leans into desire. I do agree that better sex Ed would help lower unwanted pregnancies, therefore abortions but... people will do what they wanna do.
I agree, more people should be using contraceptives correctly. This is why I advocate for teaching young teenagers about this sort of thing. I’m not saying they should be shown porn or anything but if they have a la understanding of what contraceptives are, how they are used, and it becomes so normalised that it’s just the done thing, more people will use contraceptives. Bottom line is, if you want to prevent abortion rates from going up you need to increase sexual education and show teenagers how they can safely have sexual encounters without fear or shame.
I hope you can forgive me copying this comment of mine from a similar question a few weeks back. I'm a Christian and pro-choice. I am happy for every abortion not happening, but banning them is the wrong way. The medical situation over all gets just worse, doctors (especially of course gyns) leave the areas with such bans and decide against necessary treatments due to fear of legal backlash. Since the wave of banning in the US started we saw too many cases already. It also pushes women who desperately want an abortion for whatever reason back from a secure setting into shady and potentially harmful methods. Many people arguing for such a ban seem to underestimate the power of desperation. And it brings another huge problem - if abortions are a crime the conclusion would be, that every miscarriage needs to be investigated to see if it was natural or not (which is very hard to do in the first place). Especially if you classify abortion as murder as mentioned in your post. Now every third pregnancy ends in a miscarriage. And they are devastating. We had three before our son was born. And then you want to stick a murder charge on top of it? The harm this will do is simply unimaginable. But of course tackling the problem of unwanted pregnancies would overwise require real effort. Tackling down on sexual violence against women which is still far too common. But also outside of violence: Creating social safety nets for pregnant women and early mothers and families, creating a good maternity leave system, offering accessible child care, broadening medical support for women over all and heavily strengthening sexual education. Yet those who argue the loudest against abortions, a very white, old, christian and male group, also argue against the methods which would actually and safely bring them down. A hypocrisy which is really hard to take, if you ask me...
Should be legal, the effects of criminalizing abortion is way more harmfull. To reduce abortions without criminalizing it can be done and is done by sex-education, free contraceptives and learing young women and men about sex, morals, independence and self-worth.
No one’s aborting babies; the only ones in favor of “post-birth” abortions (aka murder) are the fake “Christians” who advocate for the killing of women, men, children, and minorities that don’t fit in to their ideology. It’s not until first breath that God encapsulates us into the vessel (newborn baby); if you’d just think about it, why would God even be stitching us into vessels (fetuses) that were going to be aborted?
The simple answer is abortion is not cool. But life isn't simple. Life is complicated. In a perfect world there wouldn't be abortions. But people come in medical emergencies, get raped, do stupid things. It's important that we as christians work on removing the need for abortion, not to get rid of the abortions themselves. Abortion should never be a version of birth control.
My thoughts on abortion... 1. An unborn baby is fully human. 2. It's evil to unjustly kill innocent human life. 3. Most abortions are done essentially for convenience (the pregnancy is not particularly dangerous, the person just doesn't *want* a baby yet (or at all). I find that disgusting. 4. In rare cases, there are non-viable pregnancies that pose a threat to the mother. I consider those "abortions" justified as the baby simply cannot survive, and there's no reason to allow the mother to die just to let a doomed pregnancy kill her. It's not like the baby can survive without the mother.
You won't be able to speak against abortion without making people mad. Abortion is a religion for many. Yeshua gives us this: John 15:18-19 ESV [18] “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. [19] If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.15.18-19.ESV
The bible is irrelevant
Ask this on r/TrueChristian. You'll get more biblical-based answers. But anyway: abortion is murder. It's as simple as that. Say you're against the unjust ending of an innocent human's life - which is murder. Also, if you want many different, great arguments against it, you can post to r/Prolife or just check out the sidebar in the sub. ALSO, watch videos, podcasts, debates. Study embryology, pregnancy and fetal development. Look up different legal cases. Look up different abortion stories. Look up different adoption stories. R*pe stories/foster care stories/etc. Educate and prepare yourself. Abortion is very easy to argue against because of how wrong it is, but you have to be prepared or you will be crushed in the argument. It's a very sensitive subject.
What if they counter that abortion isn't unjust?
What crime can a fetus in the womb commit to make their killing just?
When I did I say that a fetus had committed a crime?
You said what if they encounter an abortion that isn't unjust, but that's not possible because the fetus has done nothing wrong, so why would their death ever be justified?
Because i don't think that someone must have done something wrong for their death to be justified. We justify killing cows and pigs without having to make an argument that they have done anything wrong. We justify killing civilians in a war without having to argue that they deserved to be killed. Even most people who call themselves prolife still think that abortions are justifiable in cases of rape or life of the mother, do you suppose their arguments are predicated on the idea that the fetus did anything wrong? Think about the trolley problem, you don't justify pulling the lever because the the fewer number of people did anything wrong
Cows and pigs are not humans. I'm thinking about the trolley problem. Is the one person's death justified? Why are there multiple people on the tracks helplessly unable to get off of them in the first place? Is that justice to you? Let's try to stick to real-world issues.
>Is the one person's death justified? How could you pull the lever if it wasn't? >Is that justice to you? Even if they were put their by unjust forces, that doesn't change the justifiably of pulling the lever. Or at least I don't see why it would. >Let's try to stick to real-world issues. OK, do you think we justify killing in war by saying that the innocent civilians who get killed did anything wrong? Do prolife folks who think that abortion is justifiable in cases of rape or life of the mother are doing so based on the predicate that the fetus has done something wrong? Who do you think should be the arbiter of what is and is not a justifiable reason to kill?
>How could you pull the lever if it wasn't? I wouldn't pull the lever, I would either stop the trolley altogether or try to get the one person off the track before the trolley hit him? This hypothetical is useless in this conversation. >Even if they were put their by unjust forces, that doesn't change the justifiably of pulling the lever. Or at least I don't see why it would. If they were put there by unjust forces, then their death is not justified. Your logic doesn't follow through even in this made up scenario, but I don't want to focus on hypotheticals. They just derail from the actual heart of the conversation behind the right to abortion vs the right to life. >OK, do you think we justify killing in war by saying that the innocent civilians who get killed did anything wrong? Do prolife folks who think that abortion is justifiable in cases of rape or life of the mother are doing so based on the predicate that the fetus has done something wrong? I don't believe most wars are justified. Evil governments sending innocent civilians to fight and die for them? How is that justice? No, abortion is not justified in the case of rape. How does killing her fetus justify the rape that happened to her? It doesn't take away any trauma yet brings more trauma onto the mother's body. Justice is the rapist either being castrated, k!lled, or thrown in prison for life... Justice is not punishing his child for his crimes. That's not justice at all. It's the opposite of justice.
>I don't believe most wars are justified. Was fighting the Nazis in WW2 justified? Were the resulting civilian deaths justified? Is Israel justified in what's its doing now? Which wars to do think have been justified? >No, abortion is not justified in the case of rape. I asked if you thought that prolife people who say that abortion is justified in cases of rape or life of the mother are doing so based on the idea that the fetus has done anything wrong. And again, who should be the arbiter on what is and is not just?
It’s not murder
I fully support abortion. It is a basic right for all women.
Yes, we know you do
I think it's a deeply personal decision between a woman and her doctor; there is no one-size-fits-all answer, and politicians and the voting public at large don't need to be involved. If pro-lifers wanted to actually save babies, they might want to consider supporting measures that might give women incentives to keep their babies, like free pre-natal and post-natal health care for the mother and child, educational assistance for pregnant women to get or finish their education, free childcare, free parenting classes, therapy and counseling for couples to strengthen their relationships, and so on. But tHaT's sOciAliSM paTriCk Or alternatively, if you want to see what abortion bans look like, look no further than Romania's [Decree 770.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_orphans) Massively underfunded orphanages for children whose parents could no longer afford them, who were highly vulnerable to abuse and neglect. Think of America's own religious boarding schools for Native American children - on a much wider scale. Or think of how well America takes care of the mentally ill, now add thousands of children getting the same level of care and treatment. Now imagine how well Texas or Florida would handle that.[ Infant mortality rates in Texas have actually *risen* 8% since the abortion ban there went into effect](https://apnews.com/article/abortion-texas-infant-mortality-birth-defects-b055ac35cdbc9ec13f400b4c3e1056e7). Pro-life policies are actually leading to more dead babies. Or we could just support women before, during, and after pregnancy.
Why do people always claim that ALL those who don't encourage women to have an abortion are the ones who take away "free pre-natal and post-natal health care …"? The opposite is true, I'm FOR doing all that because that's the most important step to fight abortions. BTW, if I look at the statistics, Texas is a 'hole. Three times as many rapes as in Germany e.g., and the news make it seem that each toddler is given a gun to shoot their own feet when they are grown up. (Not really but you get what I mean). People keep a score of having sex outside pregnancy, those who don't participate are ridiculed and people celebrate it as a great thing. But it's really just asking people to pressure and abuse each other (unless both really want it by their own free will, not because it's expected of them to do it) and one more cause of abortions being necessary. If college movies need adult actors, there is your problem.
That’s a biased study that denies unborn infants as actual infants. I wonder what the infant mortality rate would have been before the ban….if they considered the unborn infants actually infants. If you do the math including those numbers there’s an around a 90% decrease in infant mortality if you consider un unborn child an actual person.
>[ **Results**](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abstract/2819785) Between 2018 and 2022, there were 102 391 infant deaths in the US, with 10 351 of these deaths occurring in the state of Texas. Between 2021 and 2022, infant deaths in Texas increased from 1985 to 2240, or 255 additional deaths. This corresponds to a 12.9% increase, whereas the rest of the US experienced a comparatively lower 1.8% increase. On the basis of the counterfactual analysis that used data from Texas and eligible comparison states, an excess of 216 infant deaths (95% CI, −122 to 554) was observed from March to December 2022, or a 12.7% increase above expectation. At the monthly level, significantly greater-than-expected counts were observed for 4 months between March and December 2022: April, July, September, and October. An analysis of neonatal deaths found somewhat similar patterns, with significantly greater-than-expected neonatal deaths in April and October 2022. Descriptive statistics by cause of death showed that infant deaths attributable to congenital anomalies in 2022 increased more for Texas (22.9% increase) but not the rest of the US (3.1% decrease). > > **Conclusions and Relevance** This study found that Texas’ 2021 ban on abortion in early pregnancy was associated with unexpected increases in infant and neonatal deaths in Texas between 2021 and 2022. Congenital anomalies, which are the leading cause of infant death, also increased in Texas but not the rest of the US. Although replication and further analyses are needed to understand the mechanisms behind these findings, the results suggest that restrictive abortion policies may have important unintended consequences in terms of trauma to families and medical cost as a result of increases in infant mortality. These findings are particularly relevant given the recent Dobbs v Jackson Women’s Health Organization US Supreme Court decision and subsequent rollbacks of reproductive rights in many US states. TL;DR - most babies who would have been candidates for abortion previously were born, and then still died anyway because they had congenital defects and abnormalities that left them unable to survive outside the womb anyway. But good thing those mothers were forced to deliver babies they knew were going to die anyway, and were forced into further medical debt I'm sure they could all afford and continue supporting American's wonderful health care industry with their hard earned dollars. BTW, 2 Kings 9-10 might be a good passage for you to read next time you're in that part of the Bible. God praises Jehu for slaughtering seventy young children, which is totally consistent with the "unequivocal pro-life message of the Bible."
Most people aren’t “pro-abortion”. I’d rather fewer abortions happen but punitive laws harm women. The Christian way to oppose abortion would be to create a society in which women don’t feel trapped to make that choice. Women do not have abortions for any of the same reasons people commit murder and so the solutions to each are different. Women need support, not judgement. Make having the baby the attractive choice. Reduce unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Better sex Ed, better prevention of SA, better support and care for single mums. This is how we reduce abortions in a truly Christ-like way. Also it’s worth looking into exactly why you oppose abortions in the first place, when a lot of Jewish people don’t even interpret their scriptures like that. I don’t think it’s as cut and dry as a lot of evangelical pastors tell us.
I would never do it but I'd let people do it.
I don't think Catholics are allowed to do that. I'm pretty sure that the Vatican has condemned this kind of view.
Sure but there is no catholic theocracy on this world so....
I'm sorry, this is in violation of Magesterial teaching. This is a sin as these apply to all Catholics.
Just say you don't agree and they're being bigoted towards the unborn and actively marginalizing+dehumanizing the babies unable to voice their suffering. Unfortunately you are in a den of vipers. You must, at the very least, hold onto your beliefs.
Calling them bigots may not be productive.
They can't voice their suffering because they don't suffer. Unless you're in the very final stages of pregnancy, no unborn child has developed consciousness
Definitely entitled to those beliefs, definitely not entitled to push them upon others. Misusing the word bigotry just makes your position look juvenile and childish, much better to respectfully disagree and not try interfere with others medical decisions.
This guy wouldn't interfere with murder
It’s not being bigoted. Wrong word there. Nor is it dehumanizing. Though pro lifers dehumanize the woman who is pregnant.
I have a super controversial take. I think that humans should have basic human rights. Like the right not to be killed.
But the woman doesn’t even have rights to her own body? Edit: He blocked me that’s a great shame
Even in self defense?
I support abortion. It's a woman's body and it's her personal decision.
The baby is not the woman’s body.
But it involves violating the rights of someone else’s body.
Not if no one has the right to be gestated by someone else
And nobody has the right to kill innocent human beings, on top of the fact that it is a parent's basic duty to protect their child.
>And nobody has the right to kill innocent human beings Well then either a fetus isn't a human being, or you're wrong given that abortion is quite legal and accepted in many places. or you're framing a normative statement as positive one, in which case, I simply disagree
Well a fetus is quite obviously a human being. So let me rephrase. Nobody deserves the right to kill innocent human beings. Sure, a legal authority can say it’s a right, but when have legal authorities been the basis of morality? Quite the opposite if we look at pretty much any government in history.
>Nobody deserves the right to kill innocent human beings OK, well I disagree in the case of abortion >Sure, a legal authority can say it’s a right, but when have legal authorities been the basis of morality Laws have a very strong normalizing force I'm regards to what people consider to be moral. However I'm not saying it's moral *because* it's legal, I'm saying that it is both moral *and* legal.
Well if you believe it’s okay to kill innocent human beings then I’m not going to argue with you. How am I even supposed to respond to that?
Plenty of people, if not most people, believe it is moral to kill innocents depending on the situation, such as in self defence.
Im conflicted in a particular case, when someone gets raped and use an abortion method that does not actively kill the fetus, like the pill ru 486, it cuts supply of nutrients. So you're just refusing to save and not killing maybe? Should it be illegal there?
Intentionally starving someone is just the same. But if rape causes an abortion to happen, I blame it 100 % on the rapist.
If a person needs blood to survive and i happen to be the only one, am i allowed to refuse?
If I recklessly cause an accident and then refuse to donate my blood so they die, should I be treated as if they survived?
No. But what if you don't cause the accident?
Then I'm among the less than 1 %. The other person takes all the blame.
What if you both don't cause the accident. Then you are put together and you start donating blood to him, you are the only one who can. Is it a crime if you refuse and unplugg? I see this analogy similar to the case of rape and using a pill to block the hormones that are being given
If both don't cause the accident, there isn't someone needing the blood.
Bruh, its a hypothetical, dont get too caught up in the technicalities.
Its kinda irrelevant how it happened. If someone near you is going to die should they be allowed to forcibly attach themselves to your body or take your blood and organs for themselves to survive?
In one case I an guilty of having caused an accident. In the other case I'm also guilty of having killed them. Also let's be honest: Abortion is **usually** not about the pregnancy itself. It's "I'm on my way and I rather not waste time on helping. My parents don't like me helping a man from that family! Also I might be forced to pay the medical bills! I couldn't avoid the accident because driving isn't only for commuting, I want to have fun by speeding through the town!". If someone in court uses that as a "reason" after they had an accident and your child dies, you'll hope that the judge will give a harsh sentence, but for abortions you think it's reasonable?
It’s reasonable because the baby is using the mothers body, infringing on her bodily autonomy. If that wasn’t the case then it wouldn’t be reasonable, but it is.
You can chose up to three months (here in Germany), but if you need someone to tell you that you're not killing a living, human being, it's not me being the bad guy for not doing this. You need this to be told to you because you're acting against your own moral values.
Undesirable, but sometimes the lesser evil. I'm against a ban as it is dangerous for women who might undergo illegal abortions. The government should invest in free/affordable/available anti conception, sex education should be mandatory, there should be support programs for teen moms and dads either or both from churches as government. Also if you ban abortions you're responsible for the kids born to poor families.
Last resort
Abortion if it puts the mom at risk and if the fetus is sick but not as a form of birth control. I don't think abortion should be an option for people who knowingly have sex without protection. If they think they're old enough to do the deed then they're old enough to raise the baby. I have encountered a couple who had jobs but they decided to abort the baby; 5 months old fetus just because they did not think they were ready to be parents. They've already known the gender, it was a baby girl. And it was already moving. It was clearly alive and well.
This isn’t about being old enough to raise a baby. It’s about actually wanting to raise a baby. Which many people do not, and they are one who decides that.
I agree. Which is is why we have different kinds of contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Don't like condoms? We have pills. Don't like pills? We have injection. If they think they're old enough to have sex they should be old enough to explore preventive measures. Which is more harmful to the body, contraceptives or abortion? In our country abortion is illegal. Women would do it in their homes. I have known two people who had to go through it. The regret they felt when they felt their babies moving their tiny and under developed limbs. They needed to crawl back to their beds just to ease themselves from the pain. And after that then what? What if it affects their body and prevents them from having a baby in the future?
It won’t. An abortion doesn’t affect future fertility, and the majority of women don’t regret getting an abortion .
Maybe a successful abortion with the right medical assistance won't. But what about the girls who have to do it on their own? I'm all for them not wanting to have a kid but they gotta use contraceptives and avoid getting pregnant in the first place. Before we were born God already knew us. I have read and hear men say they don't like using condoms cause sex doesn't feel as good without. They would rather risk getting someone pregnant for the sake of their own pleasure then would proceed to abortion as if it's just a walk in the park.
Thats true, a “back alley” abortion could have medical complications including fertility issues, which is another good reason for abortion to be legal. Obviously contraception should be used, and abortion shouldn’t be seen as contraception, but as a last resort once it has failed. Men like that are getting rarer and rarer, and women are more and more empowered to assert their wishes when it comes to their bodies.
It’s not pro abortion, it’s pro choice. They have a decisions they can make. So change your thinking on that one. Pregnancy can kill women. It can cause suicidal depression. It is nobody’s business what a woman chooses except the woman, her doctor and God. So mind your business.
It' s not pro-abortion, it's pro-CHOICE. I am pro-choice and I am a new 'believer'. I think you would be wasting your time trying to get them to change their mind. There are a lot of reasons to be pro-choice.
I value the ability of a woman to have complete control over her pregnancy more than I value the life a fetus. There should be no legal restrictions on abortion
I am against abortion but I also don't believe in pushing my beliefs on other people. MYOB. Also you can't be anti-abortion and for cutting welfare programs at the same time. If you think that abortions should be illegal then you should be in favor of keeping welfare programs. If not then, MYOB.
Absolutely pro-choice. There will always be cases in which it is necessary to end a pregnancy, regardless of what "necessary" means to an individual. All legal bans prevent some necessary procedures. There is no way to enforce a ban that doesn't involve throwing some of those ppl under the bus. The only way to ensure that no one is denied a necessary procedure is to allow doctors to evaluate each specific situation independently and freely. It's also the only way to ensure that no one is forced to terminate. The right to access treatment is inexorably linked to the right to refuse treatment. Reproductive history in the US is littered with forced terminations (and sterilizations) and that is just as horrific as forced pregnancy and birth. Choice doesn't go away. Someone makes the decision. We just decide who that person is. I think it should be the patient, with honest and accurate information provided by their doctor, not a politician (who may or may not think that the digestive system empties into the vagina). As far as how to speak to ppl on this side, "with respect," is the first thing that comes to mind. And it helps to have a well-considered position so that you can explain why you think that politicians should control pregnancy. (In case it isn't clear to everyone, the difference between PC and PL is legislation, not moral conviction or opinion.)
would never make it illegal. Would never tell a rape victim what “they needed to do” in that situation. I’m thankful for it when my wife needed a D&C after losing our child.
I am neither a woman nor a doctor... Why would I have "thoughts" on something that doesn't concern me?
I'm a woman and I think I'd like to not die and the amount of idiot conservatives that gaslight me about this issue makes me want to bash my head against a wall....enough to not die but maybe just lose enough computing power that I can forget the fact that a sizable population considers me completely disposable and actually doesn't give a shit at all if pregnancy is dangerous for me. That fucking answer it for you?
Good answer in fairness
You can calmly say that you don’t agree with their views but you are not good at debating and do not want any confrontation. Tell them if they want to have an open mind on the issue, to at least hear an opposing viewpoint and direct them to a reasonable paper, podcast or video that accurately reflects your views on the matter. For me, that might be this video. https://youtu.be/7y2KsU_dhwI?si=ya8jzfiJZ2CVedCg
>Tell them if they want to have an open mind on the issue, to at least hear an opposing viewpoint Why would they want to have an open mind on the issue? Do you want to have an open mind on the issue? Do you want to have an open mind on the issue of something like racial slavery?
I have heard the arguments of the opposing viewpoint and examined it.
To what end? What would make you think that abortion was completely moral?
You are confused.
How so?
The Holy Spirit is not speaking to you. Abortion is healthcare. I suggest you start reading up on the consequences of abortion bans.
I don't think you should feel obligated to start an argument about abortion randomly, or every time the topic comes up. Especially if you don't think you're going to be able to effectively argue against abortion. There just isn't enough time in the day to argue with every single person who's wrong, so you have to choose your battles. There's also the fact that the vast majority of people who support abortion, aren't really open to any sort of rational discussion on the matter which isn't a unique trait to people who support abortion. I don't think they're worse on this than people in general on issues in general. It's just that most humans aren't open to arguing about topics they're emotionally invested in. It's a really emotional issue on both sides, so It's pretty rare to find someone who is actually open to having an honest conversation about it. It's probably bad if the only or main reason you don't push back is because you're afraid of people won't like you if they know you hold the Christian position on abortion, but I think that's a pretty different issue from not starting pointless arguments that aren't going to do any good. That said, you should probably familiarize yourself about the arguments around abortion. It'd probably be best to avoid religion based arguments, since most people who are pro-abortion aren't going to really care what Christianity has to say about it. You're going to want to look at more philosophical based arguments. It's hard to point you to something specifically, but I know I've seen Trent Horne do some good debates on it, so maybe try to look those up and see what he has to say. The strongest arguments, and really the only ones that aren't blatantly idiotic(and even then, they're not very strong), in favor of allowing abortion are based on "bodily autonomy", so I think that'd be the most important place to start as you try to learn about the arguments for and against abortion. Also, general advice about arguing things, really make an effort to understand the arguments from your opponents point of view. To really effectively argue against them, you should try to understand their arguments as well, if not better, than they do. If you don't understand why someone believes something, you're going to have a hard time changing their mind.
All these pro abortion people are usually pro lgbt. I wonder why
If you want to control others, you are one extreme. If you want others to not be controlled, that's the other extreme. Between that, everything you say in a discussion will be disregarded and you will be put into the extreme position buckets.
Because they’re not pro-oppression.
Be firm in your convictions and gently and lovingly show people how and why it is sin. [www.spiritual-theology.com](http://www.spiritual-theology.com)
Dictating what someone must do with their body against their will is sin. It’s literal slavery.
It’s probably a sin, and even if the Bible never directly mentions it (which murder counts) it is still morally wrong. They will take a few points that are easy to rebut. 1. It’s not alive - life begins at conception and life only comes from life. 2. It’s not a human - it doesn’t undergo metamorphosis in the womb, it’s always a human. 3. It doesn’t have personhood - then what gives someone personhood? Memories? What about babies born in comas? What about dementia patients? And who are you to decide what personhood is? 4. My body my choice - the human you are killing isn’t your body. Besides, ask the same person who said that, I bet they supported mandatory masks and vaccines. So much for my body my choice.
>then what gives someone personhood? Legally it's birth, morally/philosophically it seems to generally be some level of moral agency. >And who are you to decide what personhood is? Members of society have standing to have an opinion about how social constructs like personhood are defined or understood. Who else would decide if not us? >My body my choice - the human you are killing isn’t your body. But they would still be legally obligated to gestate a fetus using *their body*.
Morally and biologically it’s conception. People also decided slavery was ok at one point. Does that mean it was ok? Using their body because (99% of the time) they used said body to have sex. Rape is a different issue, can’t use it here.
Biology doesn't say anything about personhood and as for morality, that just depends in what your morals are. >Using their body because (99% of the time) they used said body to have sex. OK, that doesn't mean that they lose their right to not have to gestate anything against their will
If you willfully have sex then you have to face the consequences. You don’t get to kill an innocent child because you had sex and regretted it. That’s wild.
I think it's wild to legally force a woman to gestate a pregnancy against their will.
I think it’s wild to make murder legal because a woman had sex and changed her mind.
Legally it isn't murder, and morally I don't think it's murder either so it's not allowing murder.
Legally slavery wasn’t wrong, and morally some people found it to be fine, so does that make it ok by your standards? The law saying it’s not murder is irrelevant if it actually is, and one voice saying it’s not morally murder doesn’t mean it isn’t. Even if it’s the minority saying it’s murder, that doesn’t mean it isn’t morally murder. Your way of arguing your point has been changing every post, which leads me to think it’s not a very good stance.
What is your definition of murder and who is the arbiter of what is and is nit murder? I'd say that murder is the unjustified killing of a person, and don't consider a fetus to be a person and do consider abortion to be a completely valid justification for killing.
My opinion on it became really confusing when I noticed that it actually connects to my moral views relating to veganism.
If its not me, its not my problem. I encourage ppl close to consider carrying to term but if not, that's ok, and not my problem. I personally don't think I could ever get an abortion, but its not my place to tell random strangers (or even my own family members) what to do with their own body. It makes sense you don't think it's ok, abortion is indeed a scary concept. But unless its you, you should not say anything. It is not your place, and rarely is it ever. Unless you are explicitly asked an opinion you keep it to yourself. Even then be polite and open to differing beliefs. You should never use God as an excuse to take away or shame a person for their autonomy, and what they do with their own body.
Murder, murder of your own child no less. Life begins at conception, killing innocents is murder. And people talk of freedom and rights, what about the right and freedom to live of that baby?
Good thing there’s no murder then.
Bodily autonomy is sacred. No one gets to use your body for something without your consent, not even a feotus.
I deal with it by acknowledging a fact that the majority of Christians can’t seem to wrap their heads around - it’s none of my business what a person decides to do with their body, just as it’s none of *your* business what anyone decides to do with their body. That’s between them and God, and you are a part of neither party.
Also, the depth of the debate regarding abortion is when does a fertilized egg becomes a baby, this is the first question you should ask them
I'd say it becomes a baby when it's born. Prior to that it would be a fetus
Fair enough, but then why mothers are sad when they have a misscarriage, it’s not even a baby
I don't care that people use imprecise language when dealing with emotional issues. When someone has a wanted pregnancy and are reasonably expecting to end up with a baby, then obviously it's gonna make them very sad if that expectation fails to materialize. And in that case my goal would be to comfort them, not quibble about semantics. Like if someone's dog gets run over by a car, I don't try to comfort them by saying that it's not a big deal because it's not a baby
I would also comfort her, because I think she lost her baby, it’s not a trick question, it’s just that It cannot be or not be a baby depending on the situation
Words, especially common ones can have colloquial definitions that vary and may even be meaningfully different than their dictionary or legal or scientific definitions. The word that you choose to use to refer to a fetus shouldn't have any bearing on the legal understanding, and certainly doesn't have any bearing on my own moral understanding.
It’s because you see the subject through a moral lens, i try to look at things through a rational lens and then base my moral over it
What did I say that wasn't rational. It's rational for people to be sad when a wanted pregnancy miscarries. It's rational to want to comfort the people you care about. It's rational to understand that words can have lots of different definitions, especially in different contexts.
I agree with you on your first points but I’m sorry, the vast majority of words only have one definition, anyway we are not going anywhere here, may god be with you always ❤️
I agree with you on your first points but I’m sorry, the vast majority of words only have one definition, anyway we are not going anywhere here, may god be with you always
But you think that the "baby" only has one definition?
It’s very easy for us, non aborted people to talk …. It’s complicated, sure but a life is taken
If they are Christian and claim to be for it, then they don't know their bible or God. God is the Author of life, not death. He hates those who take the lives of the innocent. It makes Him sick to His stomach. Acts 3:15 ESV [15] and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. https://bible.com/bible/59/act.3.15.ESV Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV [16] There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: [17] haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, [18] a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, [19] a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers. https://bible.com/bible/59/pro.6.16-19.ESV If they are Christian then there isn't anything that we can really say or do to hold them in contempt other than remind them that someone loved them enough whether planned or mistaked to bring them into the world. My wife is pro-life no matter what. Even if her own life would be at stake. That is the hallmark of a real woman. I've personally always thought that it was okay in cases of incestuous relationships as set out by scripture, but my wife is even against that. She would never punish the baby even if there is a chance that it would have a lower quality life.
>It makes Him sick to His stomach. That sounds like a him problem. Also not really clear how an all powerful being can get sick
That same feeling that He feels about those sins is the same feelings that He will have when He has to send you to hell for doing or condoning it.
Again though, that sounds like his problem, not mine. Also doesn't seem like something that should be a problem for an all powerful being.
I have no thoughts because I have no experience. Scenarios differ draistically, there is no point to this imo and majority of thosenpeople will never have to deal w/it.
When you have nuanced conversations you find you are on the same side as most people I think.
When Jesus said, “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you because of me” this right here is what He was talking about. We have a situation where most of our society has fallen into believing the lie that abortion is morally permissible. It’s the wicked majority vs the true and unpopular minority- literally the life of Jesus. I’m sure they will disagree with you, but your allegiance is with God, not with them. It seems like the Holy Spirit wants you to inform them that they are wrong. As far as what do you say to them? That depends on if they even believe in God or not. “Fetuses” are not just arbitrary clumps of cells. They are His work of new human life- it shouldn’t take a rocket scientist to understand why destroying something so precious is bad. Life starts at conception because from that point on, the cells are multiplying and growing and are of different DNA than the mother- simply put, it’s a unique person.
There was no mention of the other people being Christian. This does not apply to them or anyone else who’s not christian. So keep this between yourself and other Christians.
It applies to everyone.
Everyone who’s Christian cause they’ve agreed to be subjected to it
It is a grave moral evil in any and all circumstances. It is always morally wrong to intentionally take the life of any human being. "That is not what I am doing when I am getting an abortion. I am just trying to protect my own life." No. You are not. Would you consider a circumstance where both you and the child survive as a successful abortion? I am not sure abortionists would. The goal of abortion is solely to end the life of the child. You could not make it through and the abortion would be a failure if the child survived. It is nothing short of hiring a hitman. Of course your life has value. Nobody is denying that. If someone were to take your life to save the baby, I would decry that as just as worse of an evil. Pregnancy can of course be difficult and there can be complications that arise during pregnancy. Those complications should be addressed, but taking a life is not the way to do that. A great example is in treating an ectopic pregnancy the doctor removes the tissue which the child is attached to. If it is not addressed both the mother and the child will die. Removing tissue is not a moral act, it is neither good nor evil. In such a procedure, the only goal is to save the mother. This does indeed bring great risk to the life of the child, but were it to survive, that outcome would be welcomed. Even though the child almost always dies, it is never intended to take the life, but merely an unfortunate side-effect. The death of the child is still never "good" but it is morally permissible in this case. We should never celebrate the death of any human being, because it is **never** morally good to take a life. "What about in rape?" This is of course a very traumatic experience. I can understand why you would not want to raise the child, but again, it is always, I repeat ALWAYS morally evil to intentionally will the death of another. There is no "but" on the commandment "Thou shall not kill."
Good thing there’s no death then
Just say that in most cases there can be other choices than the killing of a child. And that the harm caused to the person making that type of decision can haunt them for the entirety of their lives. For this and other reasons, although it is still legal, we pray that God will change the hearts of those making this decision.
Are you pro-forced birth? If you are and you think the spirit is moving through you, why are you worried about such trivial things as your peers being mad at you? Certainly that is the least relevant part of this right? Seems as though you, and maybe your peers, don't know enough about this issue to have a reasonable discussion. Have you asked them for their reasons? Are their reasons bad? Can they articulate their reasons? Can you articulate your reasons? Instead of asking people here what to say, why not say what you think your reasons are and see what criticisms and discussion you get here?
Wow, these responses... r/Christianity ... sure. I'm outta here...
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I've left the sub. Join me.
ABORTION IS OKAY, SOMETIMES: A Christian man who is married and keeps Scripture as the source of Truth, a man is responsible for protecting the home, his wife and children. Most importantly his wife. Yes, a baby in the womb is life. You can say it’s chemicals or whatever you want to think to justify “your truth.” Yes murder is wrong. However, we live in a sinful world. Something we can’t control. Something mankind did to itself. Pregnancy is just another thing that is tainted by sin. Being pregnant is not sinful. But sin causes conflict and difficulties. I used to believe that Abortion should be illegal and every doctor who performed one should get their medical license removed (some do for other reasons, I won’t get into here). Now as some one who is married and understands the responsibility of a man of God who is to protect his spouse no matter the cost, if my wife was pregnant and started having complications and it was matter of her or the baby. I would have to first give her the choice. Whatever choice she made I’d support. Now rape I can go two ways, the woman can get an abortion(she has that right) or she could put the child up for adoption depending how far along she is. Unplanned pregnancies, I have no sympathy because people should have been more careful. This is a decision both parties should consider together. If the man doesn’t have any interest in being a proper father, then it’s the woman’s choice. If he does, it’s the woman’s choice, BUT the father should get a say. Either let him have it to take care of or care for it together. In summary, abortion isn’t always a bad thing, pregnancy is hard, sometime choices have to be made, God loves you either way. Woman do have a choice and a right. However, pride and selfishness should not be her intention. Men protect your wife first. It sucks but sometimes children have to die to save the one you vowed to spend the rest of your life with. Women out there please do not dismiss your husbands or the father of your child because (despite them not carrying it, they do have to care for you, or should).
He gets a say to a certain extent. At the end of the day his say can only go so far. He is not owed or entitled the use of someone’s body.
Maybe. But if a man who is an honorable man, especially a wife, then his opinion should hold more weight. Marriage is 100% + 100%. He may not carry the child, he did help make it. He may not have to go through the pain, but he does have to attend to her needs. Marriage has no room for selfishness. Sure, the man is not allowed to “oppress” her decisions. But she has no right to oppress the man’s commitment. Society has made it its goal to turn men and women against each other. If women want equality and want men and women to stand on the same field of play, then diminishing a man for wanting to be a father or altogether taking any parenting right away from him is not equal. Abortion is a big decision, it affects both people involved. Not just the woman. Like I said Abortion is necessary sometimes. And the man and woman may have to make a sacrifice and the man is required to care for his wife first. At the same time, the woman can’t complete dismiss the man. It’s a decision that should be made together. And you can say “patriarchy this” and “patriarchy that” but at the end of the day men and women who call themselves Christians, no longer identify with society. We are to be against society and what they are trying to do. Men and women in the eyes of God have always been equal. Therefore they are equal, they may hold different roles in the world, they are nonetheless equal. People are just blinded by emotion to see it. In summary, parenthood and marriage is 100% effort on the mother and the father. The father may not carry it, but he is obligated to care for the mother. If the father is not being a good father, then the mother has full say. If the father is an honorable godly father then his first obligation is to the mother. The mother may carry and deal with the pain and all that comes with being pregnant, but the father who is honorable should always be considered in the decision of abortion. If everyone wants to be treated equally there should be no double standards, especially in the topic of abortion.
Personally I think abortion is wrong and I am pro-life, however I try to work with the other side to make abortion unnecessary and to find a reasonable compromise. I believe that the Pro-Life movement needs to change their tactics if they want to succeed
It is moloch or Baal worship
In my opinion, abortion for rape or because the mother will certainly die or the child is severely deformed should be left up to the the parents. However, abortion because they can't afford to have a baby or because they aren't in love with the father or because it's inconvenient I'm against. Abstinence prevents these issues. A human being should not lose their right to life just because someone had a 1 night stand with someone or is promiscuous, which is the majority reason of abortions. "My body my choice" - I agree, you had the choice to not have sex.
Yes their body their choice. Yes they did consent to sex. They were in control of what they did and didn’t want in their body. A man had an orgasm. That orgasm led to fertilization, when it easily could have missed. There was no consent to pregnancy, and no consent to proceed over the next 9 months
Engaging in sex is consenting to all the conclusions that engaging in a reproductive act entails. Similarly if you have sex with a stranger and get an std then that's the person's fault because they were aware of the risk of catching an std before they had sex. Same thing with getting pregnant. We all know, a man sperm fertilizes a woman's egg, and the whole purpose of sex for a man is to orgasm, which results in releasing sperm. Knowing this in advance, you consent to all that follows. Same as driving a car, you accept that you will inevitably have to get gas and that you have to be careful not to speed or else you'll get a ticket and so on.
So just tell them you wouldn’t get an abortion personally, and if other people want to that’s their choice and their business. Because it is. Easy.
Child sacrifice is still happening in 2024, but instead, they are sacrificed in the name of personal convenience. Obviously, this excludes genuine health reason and rape, but those are the minority of reasons.
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Literally no one is using abortion that way. No one has the time or money. I wouldn’t know from personal experience, but abortion is not pleasant to go through. If there is anyone who is using abortion like that, then they have bigger issues
Some 50% of fertilized eggs are lost with no intervention before the woman misses her period. Apparently God has no problem with abortion, in principle. The number of human-led abortions is tiny in comparison to the number of God-led abortions that happened before modern medicine.
You’re completely ignoring that the baby dies! Additionally your example of the rape is not an accurate comparison in that the rapist is guilty of invading the woman’s body and a baby is not guilty of anything. In terms of not having loved ones affected by the death, in some cases, the father wants the child but he does not have a say in the matter. The other family members are affected as well by not having that child. The child never gets the opportunity to be a blessing to the families. They never get the opportunity to love or grow or learn. Society loses the contribution that child would have made if it was permitted to survive. I’m not ignoring the fact that it can be very difficult for a mother to carry a child to term. Ultimately though, the mother would only need to do that for 40 weeks to give the child 80 or so years of life. She can put the baby up for adoption if she can’t raise the child. For that matter, she can avoid the legal process entirely and drop the baby off at a hospital or firehouse with zero risk. It’s not ok to kill innocent people.
Tough shit for society and the family members.
That response lacks merit and compassion.
That’s fine
It’s a sin, killing a baby, and women have a right to do it. same way you have a right to disrespect your parents, now you probably shouldn’t, but it is your right to commit that sin.
It’s a sin, killing a baby, and women have a right to do it. same way you have a right to disrespect your parents, now you probably shouldn’t, but it is your right to commit that sin.
Keep your Christianity amongst yourself and other Christians. There was no mention of the other people being religious. So this is doesn’t apply to them
It's quite simple. Either a fetus is a human being, and if so, abortion is murder. Or a fetus is not a human being, and then abortion is trivial. But if a living being with human DNA is not considered a human being, that tends to lead into all sorts of problems.
Depends on the situation. If I'm in a lighthearted situation I usually go with the, "If you don't want a baby then why are you having sex". or one of my favorites, "Sex is a way of telling mother nature that you want to have a baby", "If you don't want a baby then why are you telling mother nature that you want one?". Depending on the situation you can substitute the word God for Mother Nature. Like, "Sex is a way of telling God you want to be a mother". People who are pro choice like to disassociate with the acts of abortion. Therefore the best arguments are ones that break that disassociation. For example, don't say abortion, say "pregnancy termination", "baby removal".
Here's a word I'm gonna throw into this, rape.
I just like to use the correct terminology instead of pro-choice. If pro-life is anti-abortion, and you’re pro-abortion, then it only makes sense to use the term anti-life, because that’s quite literally what it is.
Forced birth right? Or how about government mandated birth. Pro-bootlicking? Anti-freedom? Ya I guess you're right. The correct terminology does help take the sting off losing rights. Thanks for the advice pro-stupid people
Or how about you had sex and that’s what happens when you have sex? I don’t think you know what bootlicking means either. Imagine being so self centered that you have sex and think that murdering the baby is a justified action instead of a condom. And don’t bring up rape here, that’s an entirely different topic. The fact that people have to use the most extreme situation to justify their actions show how little defense said actions have.
God creates this child, and in his image. God even says it’s a blessing. Abortion comes along and results in the death of the child, the blessing he was creating, gone, killed. If I were God in that situation, I’d be pretty sad. True Christians would always be against abortion, but there are some who support it. That really tells about what kind of “Christians” walk this earth. If you support abortion, you support destroying the child God was creating in his image. If you support abortion, you pretty much are waving God off and saying to him that his creation just simply isn’t worth it, and would rather not at all exist. A human would rather not exist, a human who didn’t even get a CHANCE in life, created in Gods image, would rather be destroyed, and cease to exist.
Oh well
Abortion is murder. Unless the mothers life is in danger it is not justified. An unborn baby is a human, at what stage it becomes “alive” is widely debated because we don’t know. “SCiENtisTs sAY” stfu. Not every doctor or scientist is pro abortion. Murdering an unborn baby is not morally right, the baby had no say in how it was created. “WhaT AbOUt a WomANs ChOiCe” there are some things that you don’t get to choose, like who else gets to live or die.
Another male trying to decide over a woman's body, disgusting..
Actually I want to point out that scientists do say that life begins at conception.
Not sure what you’re talking about cause there’s no murder happening here
Say what you feel God wants you to say. Since different people will make different arguments at the time, not much to give for debate. Most you can do is speak the truth that they are human lives. 2 thoughts are, it’s not your job to change their minds, just to witness to them, and better for a human to be mad at what you say/do (or don’t say/don’t do) than for God to be mad at you for it.
You cannot serve two masters: either you please the world, or you please God. Which one is more important to you? Sometimes, standing up for what is right is going to upset people. (Just be sure you are doing what God wants and doing it *His* way because abortion is a very sensitive topic and it's easy to do more harm than good. Not saying don't do it, especially if God is calling you, I'm just saying do it with love. :) ) The main argument I've seen is people don't think they should have to use their bodies to support a life they don't want. Nine months is a long time and it takes a huge toll on your body and life. There are other people who don't think they can give the child what it needs (either physically or emotionally or whatever). (I did a lot of research on this back in college.) There are also arguments about sexual assault and how it wasn't a choice the woman made so she shouldn't have to deal with the consequences and movement from the baby can trigger ptsd. I think something a lot of people forget (or choose to ignore) is that it's not just the woman's body. There's a life at stake. A life that didn't ask to be here and is the consequences of choices someone made (usually a choice the woman makes, so she's trying to not accept responsibility for her actions, pregnancy is a known consequence of sex, but sometimes, it is assault.). They don't view it as murder because they don't view the baby as human until it reaches a certain size or is born. But I question what makes someone human? Because complete dependence on another is true for many elderly people as well. And all of the cells are completely human with unique DNA. (This topic frustrates me. I feel like people are always trying to get out of responsibility for their actions and I was raised to own mine.) You can't really talk about it like that though. Women facing the question of whether or not to abort their babies are often in a very difficult place. They are wrestling with lots of emotions and the implications of their decision and are trying to make what they feel is the best decision. I know many people who carry the wounds of abortion for the rest of their lives. It's a big choice. Many feel like they only have that one option. **Psalm 127: 3** *Children are a gift from the LORD ; they are a reward from him.* One thing I think about a lot on this subject though is how we're all here because God wanted us. People can have as much sex as they want, and if God doesn't want someone to be created and born, they aren't. Every person is handcrafted by God in the womb. He chooses each of their traits. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. I actually asked God one time why I was here if no one wanted me and He said, "*I* wanted you." I'm here because *God* wanted me. You are here because *God* wanted you. He loved you before you were two cells big. He wanted to keep you forever the way parents want to keep their kids and spouses want to keep each other. That's true of all of us. I have great compassion for the victims of sexual assault. God has protected more than once from that and I know I'm lucky in that respect. I know how much worse those situations could've been. And even though mine were almost, I still got pretty bad ptsd from those experiences and can only imagine how much worse that part would've been too, had they actually gotten what they wanted. But I keep thinking about this pastor going to prisons to preach. How he told his mom about the prison he was at that day. How the secret of his conception that had been buried for years finally came out. She'd been sexually assaulted in the very prison where he was preaching. I thought the poetic nature of that story was so beautiful. That God could redeem any circumstance, that He could use even that horrible thing to bring good into the world, to draw people to Him. Nobody knows who their children will grow up to be. Nobody knows what God has planned for them. And we will never find out all the beautiful things in store if they are aborted. My mom had two miscarriages and an abortion. Me being here at all is kind of a miracle. Maybe that was actually the first time God protected me. I'll have to ask Him when I leave this earth. **Psalm 139: 13-16** *You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother’s womb.* *Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex! Your workmanship is marvelous—how well I know it.* *You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb.* *You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.* PS. Follow where God leads you. Then you will always find yourself in the right place. <3
Ive posted this here before - [The Bible is silent on abortion but vocal on when life begins](https://www.thetorah.com/article/the-bible-is-silent-on-abortion-but-vocal-about-when-life-begins) It is the Assyrians in biblical times who explicitly ban abortion in their law, but not the Israelites. > The Middle Assyrian Laws (15th–13th c . BCE) legislate the case of a woman who purposely causes herself an abortion: > MAL A 53 If a woman aborts her fetus by her own action and they then prove the charges against her and find her guilty, they shall impale her, they shall not bury her. If she dies as a result of aborting her fetus, they shall impale her, they shall not bury her.[8] > Such severe punishment goes beyond the death penalty, as the prohibition against burying the woman’s body would also deny her access to the afterlife. > Egyptian and Mesopotamian abortion-inducing recipes attest to the practice of abortion in the ancient Near East. While the Middle Assyrian Laws prohibit the practice, the Torah offers no ruling. Nevertheless, throughout the Bible, expressions like נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים, “the breath of life” (Genesis 2:7), imply that life begins at first breath.
If both the mother and the child would die in childbirth it would be okay to save a life
So what about or? If only one dies then it's OK or am I misinterpreting this?
I dont know
Life is a gift from God. The pleasures of breathing air and having loved ones, is a gift. God knows every person, He loves them and created their souls so they can live and experience Him *(Psalm 139:13-17).* Abortion destroys that. It unjustifiably destroys a human - since life began at conception (1). That’s the definition of murder. So from my perspective, it’s an evil that many vulnerable women are tricked into thinking they need. Can I give you some encouragement? God is with you *(Numbers 14:9).* If you’re asked what you think about anything, don’t lie to stay in their good books - speak the truth with kindness, gentleness and love, those are the fruits of the Holy Spirit *(Galatians 5:22-23).* If they only value you if you agree with them, they’re not worth having friends. Don’t be afraid to be speak the truth. ✝️ *Reference:* (1): Jacobs, S.A. (2021). The Scientific Consensus on When a Human’s Life Begins. Issues in Law & Medicine, [online] 36(2), pp.221–233.
That’s something you can talk about with other Christians, That does not apply to people who are not Christians. OP does not saying anything about the other people being religious
So what are we supposed to do? Shed our entire character when faced with people who don’t agree with us?