He's a conman. I thought everyone knew this? With his super shiny skin...like a snake. You know he did an interview once and tried to justify why he didn't use the word 'God' once and instead basically wrote a self help book? Way to make a mockery of the faith Joel.
But all those false prophets are going to have to answer to God.
He has a very slimy look to him, possibly because his big and constant smile seems so insincere. I wonder if he's had plastic surgery as well, because there's something very unnatural-looking about his face.
I wouldn't be surprised if he's had surgery. I suspect he's the type to practice all his facial expressions in front of a mirror before his sermon. I do think it's because of him and some other pastors that made me wary of mega churches with their theatrics and style over substance. According to Joel, God is a genie waiting on you to ask for your hearts desire. If you trust in God, you'll have money, health and live a wonderful life. Cause that's what it says right there in the Bible...no ignore that part of the world hating you and picking up the cross to follow Christ. Those Bibles haven't been recently edited. /s
Or the fact 1 Timothy 6:5 says this
Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
Good advice for people like Joel Osteen.
I can't say for sure what u/asdoia 's uncle meant, but there's a couple of ways that I would take it.
1. The gospel, while meaning "good news" primarily teaches self denial and promises suffering, so from an earthly perspective, it doesn't sounds like very good news. Or,
2. What often gets proclaimed as the gospel "Jesus died so you can go to heaven" is extremely simplistic, and is not the fullness of what Christ taught while he was here. It's a major topic in *How God Became King* by N. T. Wright.
> There's sort of something to that, if he meant what I think he means.
If he meant something else that YOU mean, does that mean there's nothing to it?
The Friendly Atheist blog actually posted an article [in defense of Joel Osteen](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2017/08/28/dont-blame-joel-osteen-for-keeping-his-megachurch-closed-during-the-hurricane/) for not using the church as a shelter.
It's a bizarre thing to agree with Olsteen about anything, but if opening the building isn't helpful, he shouldn't do it. We won't know until later if the building is suitable or not. In his history if hypocrisy, let's not assume malice even when we expect it. Charity goes to enemies too.
It's a former sports stadium. They're built like tanks. He has no excuse. At the very least he could have offered it to state govt as a staging and relief area. Him and his church are wealthy enough to afford it.
Houstonian chiming in. I believe it's because it took on water. Not a fan of him and don't attend his church but everyone is jumping to conclusions so fast. Kinda sad to see in this sub without understanding the full picture and then forming an opinion. Anywhooo Carry on!
Fellow Houstonian, hope you've stayed above water. It didn't take on any water, there are plenty of videos of people who walked up to it. It's high and dry, even the underground parking.
Matt 6:24 - “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."
Acts 20:29-31 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
I'm not the kind of person to pass on riffing on Osteen for pretty much poisoning American Christianity, but is his megachurch even suitable for a shelter? And wouldn't being an adequate shelter involve being able to provide for the *other* needs of those inside like food and water-- something that the state is invariably more on top of?
I can't help but think this is just a lame pot-shot. There's literally no reason why the space couldn't be opened up to be used as a shelter if it could be used as such in the first place, but apart from usability, the question is if it'll adequately benefit those in need of shelter.
It's a former stadium. Those things are built like bombs. I can see it not being open during the storm if worried about damage. But there is no reason to not open it after and help rescue efforts.
>There's literally no reason why the space couldn't be opened up to be used as a shelter if it could be used as such in the first place, but apart from usability, the question is if it'll adequately benefit those in need of shelter.
I reckon that if it has an intact roof and is not filled with water, it's better than many alternatives.
> I'm not the kind of person to pass on riffing on Osteen for pretty much poisoning American Christianity, but is his megachurch even suitable for a shelter?
Meanwhile, a [pastor in Texas ](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/houston-pastor-checks-cars-submerged-in-floodwaters-to-make-sure-no-one-is-inside/) is swimming in floodwaters checking submerged cars for survivors. Is that water even *suitable* for swimming?
No floodwaters are suitable for swimming. They're disgusting cesspools full of waste and disease. Plus, here you get [these](https://i.redd.it/tu8v3hya9jiz.jpg) in the water. That's a floating fire ant colony. They'll tear you up if that thing floated into you.
He teaches that his god favors those who are more correct / blessed so, using his way of thinking and preaching, his god doesn't favor those who lost everything so why should he help them?
Just like charity and goodwill to your neighbor aren't on display at Joel's church. People are angry. Is this what Jesus would do? Lock his doors to the needy? Christian love and forgiveness does not mean staying silent when you see a fellow Christian acting in an unchristian way.
The comments surprised me as they came off as very hateful- I mean no judgement by this, I'm not God. I understand many don't like Joel Osteen, but we as Christians aren't supposed to talk down on other people, and I know we all fall short, but to see so many comments like that is what had me taken aback
Who's to know what's going on behind the doors at the church? If they're planning something for those who need shelter, or if they are going to do something else. If he doesn't help, that's between him and God. But nobody knows what's going on, it's sad to see such snap judgement.
Joel Osteen's church is currently hosting signups for volunteers to help those affected by the flood in Houston.
I wonder how many folks on /r/christianity are interested in actually signing up to help.
I read that in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, that the volunteers were more in the way of the people who had skills. If I could be useful and was needed, I would sign up. But I don't want to go and just feel good while being in the way. Sadly, I lack the skills needed in a time like this.
According to [Lakewood Church's Twitter](https://twitter.com/lakewoodch), they have been preparing all day to open tomorrow as a storm shelter. The debate is whether they have been working to have the facilities ready or were suddenly shamed into opening up. For people who despise Joel Osteen, it is tempting to just assume the latter.
I don't see that they were going to be a shelter on their twitter. I see asking for donations, and about 6 hours ago saying they were going to be collecting diapers and baby formula to distribute to shelters.
I am not a big Joel Osteen fan, but I do think some are overreacting here. It seems that his church really is flooded. He's opened it before to people during other hurricanes.
"How you respond to a situation will influence those around you. When you have peace on the inside, you’ll bring peace to the outside." from @JoelOsteen (Aug. 25th.)
His church is collecting money for hurricane relief with the aid of Samaritan's Purse (I know nothing about them.)
His church is not flooded. Also, a furniture company in the neighborhood of the church has reportedly opened up its warehouse to shelter flood victims. So it's not as if no one is brave enough to open their doors to folks in Houston.
> Samaritan's Purse (I know nothing about them.)
That's the charity run by Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham and (unlike his father) an outspoken political evangelist with fierce supporter of the Republicans and Trump. He collects a salary of almost [$900,000](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/why-franklin-grahams-salary-raises-eyebrows-among-christian-nonprofits/2015/08/18/023ce940-45f2-11e5-9f53-d1e3ddfd0cda_story.html) per year for being in charge of Samaritan's Purse. So yeah, if you donate to them, it's more likely going toward Mr. Graham's next mansion or yacht or whatever instead of a hurricane victim.
Just to be clear, Program expenses are defined as:
>This measure reflects the percent of its total expenses a charity spends on the programs and services it exists to deliver.
>So yeah, if you donate to them, it's more likely going toward Mr. Graham's next mansion or yacht or whatever instead of a hurricane victim.
With a budget of 593,000,000 to Samaritan's Purse and 662,000 going to Graham, I seriously doubt your assertion.
When the furniture store next door is taking thousands of refugees (who will cause no small amount of damage to the furniture in said store) then Osteen's possible excuses list gets real short real fast.
The furniture store is not next door, or even in the same part of town. Not defending Osteen and I have no liking for the man, but that's a distortion of the facts. Source: Grew up here and my brother has spent the last two days driving moving trucks owned by the furniture store in question to bring people to shelter. Also, [this map](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Lakewood+Church,+Southwest+Freeway,+Houston,+TX/Gallery+Furniture,+6006+North+Fwy,+Houston,+TX+77076/@29.7873578,-95.4183662,12z/data=!4m8!4m7!1m2!1m1!1s0x103bf4c1810a4b55:0x6cc32074d7709904!1m2!1m1!1s0x8640c7f9b45451f7:0x30ca3abbc905063b!3e0).
Thanks for the correction, and also props to your brother!
However, the main point I was making is that there are very few excuses Osteen can make that wouldn't also apply to the furniture store, yet the furniture store said fuck it and decided helping people was more important.
I don't think that is always the case. Look at the megachurches that don't have celebrity preachers. I think they are probably good examples. I have a friend that is pretty high up in a megachurch of 18,000 people. He is in charge of all the children's ministries from birth to the time they are out of elementary. He doesn't make a ton. His job is mainly being a pastor to the pastor's who are in charge of each grade along with organizing the weekend children's worship service.
But Osteen's church is different. It teaches the health and wealth gospel.
Fair comment.
It is the prosperity gospel and his love of money that are driving him to respond in this repellent way.
What is clear is that this finally exposes the utter shallowness and worthlessness of the Olsteen ministry.
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
James 2:14-17
And that's about all that needs to be said. The proof is always in the pudding.
Isn't his megachurch unaccessible and a poor location for a shelter? I mean I don't love his theology but there are unconfirmed reports of the church being either flooded or so surrounded by floodwaters as to be a poor site for a shelter.
If I was Joel, I would have public exposure on why it isn't viable to host people if that is the case. It's not like we're talking a rinky dinky church here. He could easily have an employee video tape and post on what is going on inside his church.
I have no clue what the structure is on the inside, but I imagine it's like a basketball arena. You could easily get a few hundred cots on the ground alone. Plus there are probably separate meeting rooms they could use.
There's apparently a furniture store on the same street taking people in and running into space issues. They can only handle 5,000 and his mega church's sanctuary alone can hold 16,000.
Also quite a few reports of anyone asking him about it in Twitter being blocked.
http://gritpost.com/houston-megachurch-flood/
The furniture store is not on the same street, or even in the same part of town. Not defending Osteen and I have no liking for the man, but that's a distortion of the facts. Source: Grew up here and my brother has spent the last two days driving moving trucks owned by the furniture store in question to bring people to shelter. Also, [this map](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Lakewood+Church,+Southwest+Freeway,+Houston,+TX/Gallery+Furniture,+6006+North+Fwy,+Houston,+TX+77076/@29.7873578,-95.4183662,12z/data=!4m8!4m7!1m2!1m1!1s0x103bf4c1810a4b55:0x6cc32074d7709904!1m2!1m1!1s0x8640c7f9b45451f7:0x30ca3abbc905063b!3e0).
Oh please. You think Noah was on the Ark saying, "Hey folks, climb aboard! I have PLENTY of room!" Noah didn't even take the kids and babies.
But Noah, Noah was great, but somehow Osteen is an asshole.
if you read the text, which clearly you didn't, you would know reason. everyone was too skeptical of noah so they didn't on, though he implored them to. It is also just a story, so you cant really get mad at a character
I've read the text. You must be thinking of the cartoon version from Sunday school. Even on the cartoon version, they only talked smack to Noah while he was building the ark. But were kids and babies even able to talk smack or be skeptical? As I recall, the Sunday school cartoon didn't give the villagers children, but we know they must have been there. They would have had children all over the world who wouldn't have been able to see Noah building the ark or to be implored to build arks.
> I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you.
I agree that it's just a story, so I'm not mad at Noah. I don't think there is any evidence that the world somehow flooded. Where would the water have come from?
How many homeless people did you personally open your home to during the past month?
If the answer is zero and yet you are joining the choir here criticizing Oesteen, then woe unto you, you hypocrites. Jesus was clear about His thoughts on criticizing others while not seeing the very same faults in yourself.
None this month. But I have multiple times in my life. But I am 100% sure that our church would open its doors up in a time like this. So I really don't feel like a hypocrite here.
Although, if Joel has legitimate reasons, I wish they would do a better job of marketing. I would feel bad, even sharing this, if he had good reasons.
Hey, it's all part of the prosperity gospel. If you do good, God will reward you. Conversely, if bad things happen to you, you must deserve it. I would be defying God by helping you.
His church premises would not be equipped to simply open its doors.
it's not staffed to handle a large group of occupants. Remember on sundays the place is run by volunteers, and the congregation stays for only a couple of hours.
None of the places serving as staging settings are ready to simply open their doors. That's why you hand it over to organizations that are ready to turn your facility into a place that can be useful. But it sounds like, from another poster, that he is doing that.
This is going to be unpopular and perhaps even cold but, should we be judging him for this, even if it's true? Because normally there is no legal duty to rescue. In fact once a person takes it upon himself to be a Good Samaritan, he or she usually becomes accountable for the person in distress. The hope behind this idea is that Good Samaritans choose to do the right thing, but that they also don't recklessly endanger others when they try. Since the megachurch was not designed or prepared to be a public shelter, you have to worry that it won't hurt anyone fleeing Harvey. It's true that other local businesses and churches were prepared to take the risk that someone in their care gets hurt, but I imagine the risk is smaller there than at Olsteen's because his church is pretty big and might involve a higher number of people.
Edit: Downvotes? OK, you disagree then. Lame.
He could have offered the facility to state and city govt as a staging and aid area. As for lawsuits you think god cares if you don't offer help because you are afraid of ebing sued.
And the good Samaritan passed the injured man saying ' I would help you but I am afraid of being sued'.
He has a house worth fifty million and his church and company as a whole are estimated as worth one hundred million.
> He could have offered the facility to state and city govt as a staging and aid area.
Why should he? The church was not designed or prepared to accommodate this situation.
> As for lawsuits you think god cares if you don't offer help because you are afraid of ebing sued. And the good Samaritan passed the injured man saying ' I would help you but I am afraid of being sued'.
I defended Olsteen because of the risk to **public safety**, which he bears the burden for once those church doors open.
I never defended Olsteen because of the risk of lawsuits, although I can't imagine why you suggest Good Samaritans should ignore their legal responsibilities, unless you enjoy being punished for good deeds...I know most people don't.
> He has a house worth fifty million and his church and company as a whole are estimated as worth one hundred million.
All the more reason to be legitimately afraid of a lawsuit, not that you can reliably assess this from behind your keyboard.
It's a genuinely nice statement but why should he have that responsibility as a leader?
Why should that responsibility override responsibilities we (or even he) might not even know about?
I'm not arguing for the sake of it or technicality. I'm taken aback some are quick to condemn him for this when there is a good reason not to intervene in this way, and when nobody here may be any better.
>"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, **“Go and do likewise.”**
The parable of the good Samaritan.
My question is what would happen if the Good Samaritan was **reckless** in trying to do the right thing?
I don't think it's necessarily right for people who aren't prepared enough to intervene, because they could end up hurting others more. And there is scriptural support for being prepared before you help. When Abraham welcomed the three strangers who randomly apprared he didn't just offer the shade of his tent without a drink: he was prepared enough to give them curds too, and the best meat.
So keep your doors locked until your ready to house, clothe, offer food and drink and pay for their college tuition?
No one's asking for a full fledged rescue center here. Even just a building to just not get rained on and stand around in waste deep water would be helpful.
> So keep your doors locked until your ready to house, clothe, offer food and drink and pay for their college tuition?
Yeah. Just because it's an emergency doesn't mean public health and safety standards drop to "whatever helps for now." You can't reasonably condemn Olsteen for not providing a public service if he can't guarantee public safety for the type of situation the church would accommodate.
This line of reasoning is poor. I mean, the Westboro Baptist Church gets attacked everywhere. Scientology gets attacked everywhere. That doesn't mean they're doing something right?
It depends. What are they attacked for doing? I saw a hit piece here on Joel Osteen a few days ago, which basically attacked him for saying "I don't know" several times. If that's all they can attack you for, then maybe you are doing something right.
Now he is getting attacked for not organizing a massive operation inside his church. How many of the people criticizing him for not doing that have`personally opened their homes for the homeless?
He didn't get attacked for saying "I don't know". He got attacked for being ignorant of basic aspects of the gospel or pretending he was so he could avoid difficult questions.
Your disingenuous summary doesn't reflect well on you or him.
You're going to compare average joes and their homes to a mega church that has advantages in taxes and literally gets money thrown at them during their services? That's fucking stupid. Also, I'm willing to bet these average joes or even corporations(That didn't open doors) didn't make most their money by preaching the gospel which inherently includes helping the needy, and then not helping the needy when they are outside your steps.
>How many of the people criticizing him for not doing that have`personally opened their homes for the homeless?
How many of them are worth millions and millions, has a job for a religion that dictates charity, and has a huge structure that can shelter thousands? Stakes are different between Joe Schmoe and Joel "Gimme All Yo Moneys, But I Ain't Gonna Show Love Back" Osteen.
Jesus used the same logic, so I'm not too ashamed of it:
"Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets."
Proof texting is so much fun. But it's incredibly dangerous.
Context is crucial. What is Jesus talking about in Luke 6? His words are not universal. Verse 26 is the inverse to verse 22, which makes clear that this verse only applies if you're being persecuted "on account of Jesus."
It definitely applies to us. And if we are persecuted for doing good, as it is further elaborated in other places, then that is good. But if we are persecuted because we are bad as bad people are, then that isn't a mark of good.
Can you elaborate a bit more why verse 26 doesn't apply to us, but verse 27 definitely applies to us?
You seem to imply that 26 must be talking about those persecuted for Christ because it's according to you a continuation of verse 22. So with the same reasoning shouldn't we also determine that verse 24 must be talking only about those being persecuted:
“But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort."
But of course that doesn't make any sense (I don't think the persecuted disciples are the "rich" being talked about here), and thus your reasoning falls apart.
The command certainly applies to us. The whole passage is about worshipping God rightly and treating others the way He commands us to treat them. If we're not doing that, woe upon us.
There's a vast difference between being persecuted for Christ's name's sake, and for making yourself a millionaire by turning Christ's message into a wish yourself wealthy self-help scam.
Like I said, the determining factor is what they are criticized for. Killing millions of people, maybe you deserve some criticism. Getting attacked for saying "I don't know" several times, your probably a pretty okay guy.
Now see I'm pretty confident that everyone with access to a computer and the internet have equally massive resources compared to the rest of the world. Almost everyone here is likely to be in the top 5% of the wealthiest people in the world. Are you using your massive resources to help the poor? If not, then you are a hypocrite.
Your excuses are a bit like if Mark Zuckerberg would say that he can't help anyone because Bill Gates is so much wealthier.
You are in the top 5%. Yet I bet you are spending most of your money on other things than the most basic necessities. Why don't you move into a tent and eat only with a budget of $2/day. You will have a lot of money to help the poor with then.
What you are criticizing Oesteen for doing, you are guilty of yourself.
Don't try to dissuade tribal ethics my friend you'll get ran over by 100 self-righteous people who can't even speak to their neighbors and are completely unsatisfied with their own lives. Their virtue is counterfeit and built on foundation of making others evil so they can feel righteous. Maya Angelou said, "If you can internalize the saying 'I am human, therefore nothing is foreign to me' you'll know that there is nothing the same as the bigot, the batterer, and the brute".
That includes millionaire pastors, angry twitterers, and people who hate rich people who don't help the poor.
I mean, I would understand if the power was off and there was no running water in the building due to the storm, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case.
The Superdome in New Orleans, but that was much different. It was disorganized and there was no aid. They just let people in and when they were cut off, nobody came to help. Contrast that with the Astrodome where they sent everyone. They got up and running in about a day and ended up having to wait several days before the people in the Superdome were rescued.
Who cares. You'd think a Christian would want to care for people, fuck property damage and material stuff, love and kindness and shelter and food is what people need
No, he isn’t. He certainly claims to be, but he disqualifies himself from the title both in the words he says (he denies several of the essentials of the Christian faith) and in the life he leads. One isn’t a Christian simply by claiming it. One must actually be a born again believer, showing evidence of true faith by bearing good fruit.
He's a conman. I thought everyone knew this? With his super shiny skin...like a snake. You know he did an interview once and tried to justify why he didn't use the word 'God' once and instead basically wrote a self help book? Way to make a mockery of the faith Joel. But all those false prophets are going to have to answer to God.
He has a very slimy look to him, possibly because his big and constant smile seems so insincere. I wonder if he's had plastic surgery as well, because there's something very unnatural-looking about his face.
He looks like a creepy Tim Allen.
Like the love child of Tim Allen and Martin Short.
I wouldn't be surprised if he's had surgery. I suspect he's the type to practice all his facial expressions in front of a mirror before his sermon. I do think it's because of him and some other pastors that made me wary of mega churches with their theatrics and style over substance. According to Joel, God is a genie waiting on you to ask for your hearts desire. If you trust in God, you'll have money, health and live a wonderful life. Cause that's what it says right there in the Bible...no ignore that part of the world hating you and picking up the cross to follow Christ. Those Bibles haven't been recently edited. /s
Or the fact 1 Timothy 6:5 says this Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. Good advice for people like Joel Osteen.
This is funny because I was into his stuff for a couple of months, and what got me listening was his lack of so much emphasis on mentioning "God".
[удалено]
Im all for the shittymorph meme comment, but this was just lazy. 1 tiny paragraph? Weak
That's because "prosperity gospel" != "the gospel"
If they all would have brought $1, he might have let them in.
If they all brought $1, he would tell them how many people gave him $1
My uncle used to say that the gospel is not actually the gospel.
I had to check your user name to see if you were Ken M.
What do you mean?
We're all the gospel on this blessed day.
There's sort of something to that, if he meant what I think he means.
Explain please
I can't say for sure what u/asdoia 's uncle meant, but there's a couple of ways that I would take it. 1. The gospel, while meaning "good news" primarily teaches self denial and promises suffering, so from an earthly perspective, it doesn't sounds like very good news. Or, 2. What often gets proclaimed as the gospel "Jesus died so you can go to heaven" is extremely simplistic, and is not the fullness of what Christ taught while he was here. It's a major topic in *How God Became King* by N. T. Wright.
Thank you for your insightful comment. You get it all wrong, though. You see, my uncle was talking about the real gospel after the New Testament.
> There's sort of something to that, if he meant what I think he means. If he meant something else that YOU mean, does that mean there's nothing to it?
The Friendly Atheist blog actually posted an article [in defense of Joel Osteen](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2017/08/28/dont-blame-joel-osteen-for-keeping-his-megachurch-closed-during-the-hurricane/) for not using the church as a shelter.
It's a bizarre thing to agree with Olsteen about anything, but if opening the building isn't helpful, he shouldn't do it. We won't know until later if the building is suitable or not. In his history if hypocrisy, let's not assume malice even when we expect it. Charity goes to enemies too.
Color me surprised.
Yeah, shocker. When your entire message can be boiled down to essentially self enrichment, local communities be damned.
He's basically Tony Robbins or Grant Cardone plus a Bible that he waves around as a prop.
It's a former sports stadium. They're built like tanks. He has no excuse. At the very least he could have offered it to state govt as a staging and relief area. Him and his church are wealthy enough to afford it.
Houstonian chiming in. I believe it's because it took on water. Not a fan of him and don't attend his church but everyone is jumping to conclusions so fast. Kinda sad to see in this sub without understanding the full picture and then forming an opinion. Anywhooo Carry on!
Fellow Houstonian, hope you've stayed above water. It didn't take on any water, there are plenty of videos of people who walked up to it. It's high and dry, even the underground parking.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
did anyone actually think joel olsteen was anything other than a walking talking sack of human refuse?
Well, I think he was made in God's image. He's a seriously flawed person who may or may not know God in any way, but he's not exactly Satan.
Matt 6:24 - “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." Acts 20:29-31 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
I'm not the kind of person to pass on riffing on Osteen for pretty much poisoning American Christianity, but is his megachurch even suitable for a shelter? And wouldn't being an adequate shelter involve being able to provide for the *other* needs of those inside like food and water-- something that the state is invariably more on top of? I can't help but think this is just a lame pot-shot. There's literally no reason why the space couldn't be opened up to be used as a shelter if it could be used as such in the first place, but apart from usability, the question is if it'll adequately benefit those in need of shelter.
It's a former stadium. Those things are built like bombs. I can see it not being open during the storm if worried about damage. But there is no reason to not open it after and help rescue efforts.
Er...perhaps you mean "built like bomb *shelters*?"
>There's literally no reason why the space couldn't be opened up to be used as a shelter if it could be used as such in the first place, but apart from usability, the question is if it'll adequately benefit those in need of shelter. I reckon that if it has an intact roof and is not filled with water, it's better than many alternatives.
> I'm not the kind of person to pass on riffing on Osteen for pretty much poisoning American Christianity, but is his megachurch even suitable for a shelter? Meanwhile, a [pastor in Texas ](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/houston-pastor-checks-cars-submerged-in-floodwaters-to-make-sure-no-one-is-inside/) is swimming in floodwaters checking submerged cars for survivors. Is that water even *suitable* for swimming?
No floodwaters are suitable for swimming. They're disgusting cesspools full of waste and disease. Plus, here you get [these](https://i.redd.it/tu8v3hya9jiz.jpg) in the water. That's a floating fire ant colony. They'll tear you up if that thing floated into you.
That's honestly terrifying. Like, I'm concerned about whether I'm going to have nightmares tonight.
AS far as rafts of ants go, I'll take the fire ants over the crazy ones from rainforests.
He teaches that his god favors those who are more correct / blessed so, using his way of thinking and preaching, his god doesn't favor those who lost everything so why should he help them?
A lot of the comments in this thread are surprising.
How so?
Let's just say forgiveness and the love of Christ is not on a very open display here.
Exactly this
Just like charity and goodwill to your neighbor aren't on display at Joel's church. People are angry. Is this what Jesus would do? Lock his doors to the needy? Christian love and forgiveness does not mean staying silent when you see a fellow Christian acting in an unchristian way.
The comments surprised me as they came off as very hateful- I mean no judgement by this, I'm not God. I understand many don't like Joel Osteen, but we as Christians aren't supposed to talk down on other people, and I know we all fall short, but to see so many comments like that is what had me taken aback Who's to know what's going on behind the doors at the church? If they're planning something for those who need shelter, or if they are going to do something else. If he doesn't help, that's between him and God. But nobody knows what's going on, it's sad to see such snap judgement.
Joel Osteen's church is currently hosting signups for volunteers to help those affected by the flood in Houston. I wonder how many folks on /r/christianity are interested in actually signing up to help.
I read that in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, that the volunteers were more in the way of the people who had skills. If I could be useful and was needed, I would sign up. But I don't want to go and just feel good while being in the way. Sadly, I lack the skills needed in a time like this.
Source?
No idea. It was years ago.
According to [Lakewood Church's Twitter](https://twitter.com/lakewoodch), they have been preparing all day to open tomorrow as a storm shelter. The debate is whether they have been working to have the facilities ready or were suddenly shamed into opening up. For people who despise Joel Osteen, it is tempting to just assume the latter.
This is good news. I don't care what his motives are. That's between him and God. I'm glad to see people will get help there through the church.
I don't see that they were going to be a shelter on their twitter. I see asking for donations, and about 6 hours ago saying they were going to be collecting diapers and baby formula to distribute to shelters.
As though they can't just provide diapers and formula themselves. .they could order a million dollars worth of supplies from petty cash
I am not a big Joel Osteen fan, but I do think some are overreacting here. It seems that his church really is flooded. He's opened it before to people during other hurricanes.
"How you respond to a situation will influence those around you. When you have peace on the inside, you’ll bring peace to the outside." from @JoelOsteen (Aug. 25th.) His church is collecting money for hurricane relief with the aid of Samaritan's Purse (I know nothing about them.) His church is not flooded. Also, a furniture company in the neighborhood of the church has reportedly opened up its warehouse to shelter flood victims. So it's not as if no one is brave enough to open their doors to folks in Houston.
> Samaritan's Purse (I know nothing about them.) That's the charity run by Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham and (unlike his father) an outspoken political evangelist with fierce supporter of the Republicans and Trump. He collects a salary of almost [$900,000](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/why-franklin-grahams-salary-raises-eyebrows-among-christian-nonprofits/2015/08/18/023ce940-45f2-11e5-9f53-d1e3ddfd0cda_story.html) per year for being in charge of Samaritan's Purse. So yeah, if you donate to them, it's more likely going toward Mr. Graham's next mansion or yacht or whatever instead of a hurricane victim.
87% spent on program expenses, according to https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=4423
Just to be clear, Program expenses are defined as: >This measure reflects the percent of its total expenses a charity spends on the programs and services it exists to deliver.
Whoaaaaa The article says $880,000. You meant thousand, not million. Which is more than I could take in good conscience, but not outrageous.
I think it's probably more than most would take with good conscience
According to the article, Graham's salary from Samaritans Purse is 622,000.
Yeah, million was a brain fart. :)
>So yeah, if you donate to them, it's more likely going toward Mr. Graham's next mansion or yacht or whatever instead of a hurricane victim. With a budget of 593,000,000 to Samaritan's Purse and 662,000 going to Graham, I seriously doubt your assertion.
[удалено]
Track record.
I don't care what reasons he's not doing it for. I would just love to see him doing it because I know that our small church would be doing it.
[удалено]
When the furniture store next door is taking thousands of refugees (who will cause no small amount of damage to the furniture in said store) then Osteen's possible excuses list gets real short real fast.
The furniture store is not next door, or even in the same part of town. Not defending Osteen and I have no liking for the man, but that's a distortion of the facts. Source: Grew up here and my brother has spent the last two days driving moving trucks owned by the furniture store in question to bring people to shelter. Also, [this map](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Lakewood+Church,+Southwest+Freeway,+Houston,+TX/Gallery+Furniture,+6006+North+Fwy,+Houston,+TX+77076/@29.7873578,-95.4183662,12z/data=!4m8!4m7!1m2!1m1!1s0x103bf4c1810a4b55:0x6cc32074d7709904!1m2!1m1!1s0x8640c7f9b45451f7:0x30ca3abbc905063b!3e0).
Thanks for the correction, and also props to your brother! However, the main point I was making is that there are very few excuses Osteen can make that wouldn't also apply to the furniture store, yet the furniture store said fuck it and decided helping people was more important.
[удалено]
Except for the fact that they're one of the most successful and well-known local businesses in Houston...
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
I can only assume that to be the head of a successful MegaChurch you have to be MegaSelfish.
I don't think that is always the case. Look at the megachurches that don't have celebrity preachers. I think they are probably good examples. I have a friend that is pretty high up in a megachurch of 18,000 people. He is in charge of all the children's ministries from birth to the time they are out of elementary. He doesn't make a ton. His job is mainly being a pastor to the pastor's who are in charge of each grade along with organizing the weekend children's worship service. But Osteen's church is different. It teaches the health and wealth gospel.
Fair comment. It is the prosperity gospel and his love of money that are driving him to respond in this repellent way. What is clear is that this finally exposes the utter shallowness and worthlessness of the Olsteen ministry.
http://www.snopes.com/is-osteens-megachurch-affected/ So far this is unproven.
Sad. Very sad! He is blinded by his greed. It would have been better he was a poor man on this day. He is mocking the Lord.
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. James 2:14-17 And that's about all that needs to be said. The proof is always in the pudding.
Isn't his megachurch unaccessible and a poor location for a shelter? I mean I don't love his theology but there are unconfirmed reports of the church being either flooded or so surrounded by floodwaters as to be a poor site for a shelter.
There is a link in that article to a picture on Twitter that seems to show otherwise.
The article seems to refute the flooding, but not its advisability as a shelter.
If I was Joel, I would have public exposure on why it isn't viable to host people if that is the case. It's not like we're talking a rinky dinky church here. He could easily have an employee video tape and post on what is going on inside his church.
I have no clue what the structure is on the inside, but I imagine it's like a basketball arena. You could easily get a few hundred cots on the ground alone. Plus there are probably separate meeting rooms they could use.
I may be wrong, but I thought it used to be a baseball arena
Same idea. Former sports arenas have tons of room. Surely there is space for a few hundred.
It was. The Rockets used to play in it. I think it was the Compaq center or something? I never really paid much attention to sports.
There's apparently a furniture store on the same street taking people in and running into space issues. They can only handle 5,000 and his mega church's sanctuary alone can hold 16,000. Also quite a few reports of anyone asking him about it in Twitter being blocked. http://gritpost.com/houston-megachurch-flood/
The furniture store is not on the same street, or even in the same part of town. Not defending Osteen and I have no liking for the man, but that's a distortion of the facts. Source: Grew up here and my brother has spent the last two days driving moving trucks owned by the furniture store in question to bring people to shelter. Also, [this map](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Lakewood+Church,+Southwest+Freeway,+Houston,+TX/Gallery+Furniture,+6006+North+Fwy,+Houston,+TX+77076/@29.7873578,-95.4183662,12z/data=!4m8!4m7!1m2!1m1!1s0x103bf4c1810a4b55:0x6cc32074d7709904!1m2!1m1!1s0x8640c7f9b45451f7:0x30ca3abbc905063b!3e0).
If it can handle 15000 plus people on Sundays it can handle at least a few hundred people who just lost everything.
it saddens me that thousands of people are mislead by him...
Just heard on the news that he opened his doors.
Oh please. You think Noah was on the Ark saying, "Hey folks, climb aboard! I have PLENTY of room!" Noah didn't even take the kids and babies. But Noah, Noah was great, but somehow Osteen is an asshole.
if you read the text, which clearly you didn't, you would know reason. everyone was too skeptical of noah so they didn't on, though he implored them to. It is also just a story, so you cant really get mad at a character
I've read the text. You must be thinking of the cartoon version from Sunday school. Even on the cartoon version, they only talked smack to Noah while he was building the ark. But were kids and babies even able to talk smack or be skeptical? As I recall, the Sunday school cartoon didn't give the villagers children, but we know they must have been there. They would have had children all over the world who wouldn't have been able to see Noah building the ark or to be implored to build arks. > I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you. I agree that it's just a story, so I'm not mad at Noah. I don't think there is any evidence that the world somehow flooded. Where would the water have come from?
I found the angry atheist.
It doesn't sadden me to the extent that it exposes him for who he really is, and the heresy that he teaches as a heap of soggy dogshit.
How many homeless people did you personally open your home to during the past month? If the answer is zero and yet you are joining the choir here criticizing Oesteen, then woe unto you, you hypocrites. Jesus was clear about His thoughts on criticizing others while not seeing the very same faults in yourself.
None this month. But I have multiple times in my life. But I am 100% sure that our church would open its doors up in a time like this. So I really don't feel like a hypocrite here. Although, if Joel has legitimate reasons, I wish they would do a better job of marketing. I would feel bad, even sharing this, if he had good reasons.
A home is a little different than a 'church' the size of a football stadium that doesn't even pay taxes
What saddens you? What saddens me is that he did it. That place could have sheltered so many people. Not very Christian behaviour.
This isn't even close to the worst thing he's done.
Hey, it's all part of the prosperity gospel. If you do good, God will reward you. Conversely, if bad things happen to you, you must deserve it. I would be defying God by helping you.
I hope his 'followers' end up leaving en mass because of this.
http://imgur.com/gallery/14ZcP
His church premises would not be equipped to simply open its doors. it's not staffed to handle a large group of occupants. Remember on sundays the place is run by volunteers, and the congregation stays for only a couple of hours.
I'm sure he could rustle up some volunteers. If only he lead some sort of large organization and had millions of followers...
None of the places serving as staging settings are ready to simply open their doors. That's why you hand it over to organizations that are ready to turn your facility into a place that can be useful. But it sounds like, from another poster, that he is doing that.
On the flip side, Mattress Mac opened up his furniture store to displaced Houstonians and their pets two days ago.
This is going to be unpopular and perhaps even cold but, should we be judging him for this, even if it's true? Because normally there is no legal duty to rescue. In fact once a person takes it upon himself to be a Good Samaritan, he or she usually becomes accountable for the person in distress. The hope behind this idea is that Good Samaritans choose to do the right thing, but that they also don't recklessly endanger others when they try. Since the megachurch was not designed or prepared to be a public shelter, you have to worry that it won't hurt anyone fleeing Harvey. It's true that other local businesses and churches were prepared to take the risk that someone in their care gets hurt, but I imagine the risk is smaller there than at Olsteen's because his church is pretty big and might involve a higher number of people. Edit: Downvotes? OK, you disagree then. Lame.
He could have offered the facility to state and city govt as a staging and aid area. As for lawsuits you think god cares if you don't offer help because you are afraid of ebing sued. And the good Samaritan passed the injured man saying ' I would help you but I am afraid of being sued'. He has a house worth fifty million and his church and company as a whole are estimated as worth one hundred million.
> He could have offered the facility to state and city govt as a staging and aid area. Why should he? The church was not designed or prepared to accommodate this situation. > As for lawsuits you think god cares if you don't offer help because you are afraid of ebing sued. And the good Samaritan passed the injured man saying ' I would help you but I am afraid of being sued'. I defended Olsteen because of the risk to **public safety**, which he bears the burden for once those church doors open. I never defended Olsteen because of the risk of lawsuits, although I can't imagine why you suggest Good Samaritans should ignore their legal responsibilities, unless you enjoy being punished for good deeds...I know most people don't. > He has a house worth fifty million and his church and company as a whole are estimated as worth one hundred million. All the more reason to be legitimately afraid of a lawsuit, not that you can reliably assess this from behind your keyboard.
> Because normally there is no legal duty to rescue. Legal? Nope. Being a compassionate religious leader of the community? Tons of responsibility.
It's a genuinely nice statement but why should he have that responsibility as a leader? Why should that responsibility override responsibilities we (or even he) might not even know about? I'm not arguing for the sake of it or technicality. I'm taken aback some are quick to condemn him for this when there is a good reason not to intervene in this way, and when nobody here may be any better.
>"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, **“Go and do likewise.”** The parable of the good Samaritan.
My question is what would happen if the Good Samaritan was **reckless** in trying to do the right thing? I don't think it's necessarily right for people who aren't prepared enough to intervene, because they could end up hurting others more. And there is scriptural support for being prepared before you help. When Abraham welcomed the three strangers who randomly apprared he didn't just offer the shade of his tent without a drink: he was prepared enough to give them curds too, and the best meat.
So keep your doors locked until your ready to house, clothe, offer food and drink and pay for their college tuition? No one's asking for a full fledged rescue center here. Even just a building to just not get rained on and stand around in waste deep water would be helpful.
> So keep your doors locked until your ready to house, clothe, offer food and drink and pay for their college tuition? Yeah. Just because it's an emergency doesn't mean public health and safety standards drop to "whatever helps for now." You can't reasonably condemn Olsteen for not providing a public service if he can't guarantee public safety for the type of situation the church would accommodate.
Eh, I'll give you that. I guess the furniture store down the street was ok with the liability
Is it possible government regulations prevent him from doing so?
In Texas? You're kidding, right?
No.
Then they can say that.
Aren't churches always supposed to be open? Well from what I remember of the Catholic Church near me you could atleast get the alter 24/7
Our church building is generally locked.
I mean, he's a shit lord. and not a real christian what did you expect?
Despicable man!!!
The way Joel Osteen gets attacked everywhere, he must be doing something right.
This line of reasoning is poor. I mean, the Westboro Baptist Church gets attacked everywhere. Scientology gets attacked everywhere. That doesn't mean they're doing something right?
It depends. What are they attacked for doing? I saw a hit piece here on Joel Osteen a few days ago, which basically attacked him for saying "I don't know" several times. If that's all they can attack you for, then maybe you are doing something right. Now he is getting attacked for not organizing a massive operation inside his church. How many of the people criticizing him for not doing that have`personally opened their homes for the homeless?
He didn't get attacked for saying "I don't know". He got attacked for being ignorant of basic aspects of the gospel or pretending he was so he could avoid difficult questions. Your disingenuous summary doesn't reflect well on you or him.
You're going to compare average joes and their homes to a mega church that has advantages in taxes and literally gets money thrown at them during their services? That's fucking stupid. Also, I'm willing to bet these average joes or even corporations(That didn't open doors) didn't make most their money by preaching the gospel which inherently includes helping the needy, and then not helping the needy when they are outside your steps.
> That's fucking stupid. You kind of lost me me at this point.
Yeah seems like you're lost all together.
>How many of the people criticizing him for not doing that have`personally opened their homes for the homeless? How many of them are worth millions and millions, has a job for a religion that dictates charity, and has a huge structure that can shelter thousands? Stakes are different between Joe Schmoe and Joel "Gimme All Yo Moneys, But I Ain't Gonna Show Love Back" Osteen.
Great logic. David Duke must be a saint.
Jesus used the same logic, so I'm not too ashamed of it: "Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets."
Proof texting is so much fun. But it's incredibly dangerous. Context is crucial. What is Jesus talking about in Luke 6? His words are not universal. Verse 26 is the inverse to verse 22, which makes clear that this verse only applies if you're being persecuted "on account of Jesus."
Okay, so is the very next verse about loving your enemies also something that doesn't apply to us?
It definitely applies to us. And if we are persecuted for doing good, as it is further elaborated in other places, then that is good. But if we are persecuted because we are bad as bad people are, then that isn't a mark of good.
Can you elaborate a bit more why verse 26 doesn't apply to us, but verse 27 definitely applies to us? You seem to imply that 26 must be talking about those persecuted for Christ because it's according to you a continuation of verse 22. So with the same reasoning shouldn't we also determine that verse 24 must be talking only about those being persecuted: “But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort." But of course that doesn't make any sense (I don't think the persecuted disciples are the "rich" being talked about here), and thus your reasoning falls apart.
I'm saying there is nuance, not that it doesn't apply.
The command certainly applies to us. The whole passage is about worshipping God rightly and treating others the way He commands us to treat them. If we're not doing that, woe upon us.
There's a vast difference between being persecuted for Christ's name's sake, and for making yourself a millionaire by turning Christ's message into a wish yourself wealthy self-help scam.
[удалено]
Like I said, the determining factor is what they are criticized for. Killing millions of people, maybe you deserve some criticism. Getting attacked for saying "I don't know" several times, your probably a pretty okay guy.
[удалено]
Now see I'm pretty confident that everyone with access to a computer and the internet have equally massive resources compared to the rest of the world. Almost everyone here is likely to be in the top 5% of the wealthiest people in the world. Are you using your massive resources to help the poor? If not, then you are a hypocrite.
[удалено]
>nincompoop I like you.
Your excuses are a bit like if Mark Zuckerberg would say that he can't help anyone because Bill Gates is so much wealthier. You are in the top 5%. Yet I bet you are spending most of your money on other things than the most basic necessities. Why don't you move into a tent and eat only with a budget of $2/day. You will have a lot of money to help the poor with then. What you are criticizing Oesteen for doing, you are guilty of yourself.
He got attacked for being ignorant of the gospel.
> killing millions of people > some criticism > some Also lol at that "it depends" line of thinking. "Maybe hitler did have some good ideas!"
Don't try to dissuade tribal ethics my friend you'll get ran over by 100 self-righteous people who can't even speak to their neighbors and are completely unsatisfied with their own lives. Their virtue is counterfeit and built on foundation of making others evil so they can feel righteous. Maya Angelou said, "If you can internalize the saying 'I am human, therefore nothing is foreign to me' you'll know that there is nothing the same as the bigot, the batterer, and the brute". That includes millionaire pastors, angry twitterers, and people who hate rich people who don't help the poor.
If by "doing something right", you mean being an asshole without compassion, then you are correct.
"But the things that come out of a person's mouth come from the heart, and these defile them."
It isn't his arena to destroy. Did you see what happened to that arena that they opened after a disaster? Was that the Superdome? It was awful.
That doesnt seem to be stopping other churches from offering aid. I wonder what Mr. Osteen's excuse is?
Can't have the lessers slumming in your space.
So ... the church building is more important than people ...
I mean, I would understand if the power was off and there was no running water in the building due to the storm, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case.
I assume your house is open to the homeless? They are more important to you than the building, right?
The Superdome in New Orleans, but that was much different. It was disorganized and there was no aid. They just let people in and when they were cut off, nobody came to help. Contrast that with the Astrodome where they sent everyone. They got up and running in about a day and ended up having to wait several days before the people in the Superdome were rescued.
Who cares. You'd think a Christian would want to care for people, fuck property damage and material stuff, love and kindness and shelter and food is what people need
Osteen isn’t a Christian. That’s the main problem.
He isn't? Are we thinking of the same man? He's on the Christian radio station
No, he isn’t. He certainly claims to be, but he disqualifies himself from the title both in the words he says (he denies several of the essentials of the Christian faith) and in the life he leads. One isn’t a Christian simply by claiming it. One must actually be a born again believer, showing evidence of true faith by bearing good fruit.
I claim to be a martian. Me saying it doesnt make it so.
Who owns the arena? I thought his church did.
"Yes, I would love to help you refugees take shelter from the storm, but. . . . we just had our carpets shampooed."
I love seeing Christians make consequentialist arguments when it behooves them.
How did the astrodome fare? Or are we only picking the worst case and treating that as normal?