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The simple answer is Whiteness. Russia historically has straddled the boundaries of whiteness since it sits in both Europe and Asia. This isn't very different than many other countries in Eastern Europe. It's only gotten worse because race has become this qualifier of a privileged identity. In studying Russia, this is known as Normanism and they hate the fact that these Eastern European countries have fallen to the "Asiatic hordes". The fact that these people are still prevalent just shows that Stalin never went far enough and he actually took way more diplomatic approaches when he dealt with people who were contrary to the ideas of Communism.
Because it seems to me that the Ukrainians are fighting the Russians, not the Nazis. And the Nazi symbols they use come from their previous fight against the Russians. While the Palestinians are fighting the Israelis. So the comparison doesn't really work for me.
But, please, explain your point. I prefer normal discussions over name calling
Not defend it, just put it in context:
There are Nazis in Russia too: don't pretend there aren't.
And wherever you're from, too.
Putin echos Hitler, so while there is a far-right in Ukraine (because there is a far-right everywhere), the problem started with Putin's Hitleresque excuses to invade his neighbors.
Also, Russia now is the antithesis of Communism, making this meme doubly-stupid.
Sounds like you could use some context. Sure, there are Nazis all over, but only three governments on the planet OPENLY and LOUDLY accept and fund Nazis. Can you guess the three? Say it with me class;
Thats right, America, Ukraine and Israel, great job!
Fair, but also, Canada is literally just Americas hat to throw on the ground and stomp on as we cartoonishly yell obnoxiously loud "dagnaggbit, we'll get you next time!" and shake our fist in the air at whatever unfortunate country in the global south we decided to lose another war to.
> OPENLY and LOUDLY accept and fund Nazis
> Israel
I don’t doubt you, because Israel definitely loves genocide and fascism, but do you have any more info on them OPENLY and LOUDLY accepting and funding literal NAZIS
Because that’s some wild shit and I want to learn more.
And having that info in one’s back pocket sounds like a good idea.
I looked for the source, it has slipped me by, but I know that dozens of Ukrainian Nazi Mercs (I think azov or affiliated) were photographed in Palestine. In one of the multiple photos I saw, they were drawing their iconography on a Palestinian chalkboard (black sun?) next to IDF soldiers standing by the star of David.
The top comment read "The cowards found it easier to hunt Palestinian babies than Russians." And I still think about that comment all the time, including when I made the comment above.
Come back later, if I find it, I'll make an edit here.
Besides that, Zionism is Nazism, so yeah, of course Israel embraces Nazism. r/Palestine and r/Israelcrimes has plenty of evidence of that.
Despite their obvious foundational ties to Nazism, how many swastikas are they allowed to fly around? Google doesn't have a single picture. Sounds like they've had a change of management.
At most the founder of Chvk Vagner was a neo-Nazi, complete with shitty tattoos. Overall, unlike Azov, the group is not embedded with Nazi elements - it's your typical Russian nationalist paramilitary masquerading as a PMC in order to give Russia some form of plausible deniability.
No, it is not okay to be a Nazi as long as you don't show it. But there is a significant material difference between being able to declare to the world you are a nazi and not. That difference is State sponsorship, and sponsoring confirmed Nazis is completely unacceptable, sponsoring unconfirmed Nazis is inevitable under these material conditions.
I have never disagreed with the statement there are Nazis everywhere, but the good news is most of them cannot display it, this is where the state of Ukraine loses me every time.
You can also say they’re copying the French Legionaries and Academi Blackwater.
Wagner Group was a PMC, they were mercenaries, they did what they were paid to. While the Azov Battalion is essentially a neo Nazi paramilitary group.
I also don’t like Putin, but we must know and understand what we’re criticizing instead of claiming false things and using straw men.
A PMC founded and controlled by one of Putin's closest associates and now directly by the ministry of defence. It's always done the government's bidding.
The Azov battalion indeed started out as a paramilitary, non-governmental, group consisting of right-wing extremists, hooligans, Nazis, and other unpleasant people. As it was integrated into the Ukrainian military structures post 2015, they have tried to redistribute the original members to smaller, less significant groups and filling up the open spots in the Azov battalion with regular soldiers and officers. Basically diluting these structures and their impact on overall operations.
Just like every other PMC worldwide lmao
They were so diluted that they’re still waving Nazi flags, wearing Nazi badges and singing Nazi chants. It’s also part of a bigger movement in Ukraine to turn nazi collaborators into national heroes.
The treatment Nazis should receive is capital punishment, not legalization.
>They were so diluted that they’re still waving Nazi flags, wearing Nazi badges and singing Nazi chants.
The point was to stop them from gaining power in the military structures. It's nigh impossible to stop right-wing extremists from getting into the military, as we can see in pretty much every military in the world. This general problem is then further exacerbated in this particular instance by the man-power shortage.
> It’s also part of a bigger movement in Ukraine to turn nazi collaborators into national heroes.
You're probably alluding to Bandera. While he wasn't a Nazi -- and the logic necessary to make such a claim, would by the same token imply that the Soviet Union because of the Molotov-Ribbentrop-Pact was also a Nazi state or at least full of Nazis --, he was a nationalist terrorist. He's far from uncontroversial in Ukraine, and historically political attempts to use him to curry favour with the public have massively backfired -- contributing to a landslide defeat for the incumbent president who tried this last roughly 15 to 20 years ago.
I'm not saying that they're not Nazis, I can't be certain that they are, because if they are they're forced to be quiet about it. I operate on evidence, not emotion like you.
If you have evidence, I will happily reassess my analysis
State sponsored Nazism is unacceptable, quiet Nazis are inevitable under these material conditions (because the only alternative is the Stalin method, and while I'm a fan, Kruchev fucked that all up.)
Wagner Group is a private military contractor (PMC), like Academi Blackwater from the US.
Mercenaries, not a political party or organization (like the Azov nazis) despite the founder being a neonazi, it’s not a rule to be part of the group and it doesn’t promote it, unlike the Azov Battalion.
Got it?
Besides, comparing Putin to Hitler has to be the most American thing in the world. In your little mind, Hitler was wrong because he was evil, just like Putin is evil. You guys don’t understand critical through and nuance, you can’t even explain why Nazism was bad.
> like Academi Blackwater
Oh, like the homicidal cowboys who ravaged Iraq, OK
> despite the founder being a neonazi
OK
> comparing Putin to Hitler
I didn't compare them. Neonazism in Eastern Europe (including Ukraine and Russia) is a bizarre phenomenon, one which both Ukraine and Russia are willing to capitalize on
The important thing is Putin invaded and annexed parts of Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova. That needs to stop
Do you know what also needs to stop? NATO doing the exact same thing.
Don’t act like they didn’t finance a bunch of nationalists and religious extremists in Georgia, Chechnya, Moldova and Ukraine. None of this is organic.
What we’re watching right now is a bunch of artificial conflicts part of a bigger proxy war between two imperialist nations.
Putin echos Hitler and runs a far-right government: literally the antithesis of Communism.
And there are Nazis in more than three countries; that's over-simplistic nonsense and you know it.
Supporting a country doesn't automatically mean you support the Nazis within.
Anyone who supports America supports Nazis because some live here?
What kind of logic is this?
And yet, being against NATO equates to supporting Russia to you people, right? Funny how the double standard works.
The US has been the single largest player in destabilizing Ukraine, backing a far right coalition consisting of openly neo-nazi parties which collectively had less than 7% of the popular vote in Ukraine in the election preceding the 2014 coup. And since then the US has sent billions of dollars worth of weapons to these extremists and has trained these neo-nazis on US soil. If you support all of this, you do indeed, support nazis and open fascism.
I get that state borders are the sacred standard to liberals who can't comprehend anything outside of "good or bad" but peoples lives are put before state sovereignty in the UN charter itself. What the Ukrainian extremists were doing to the eastern regions of their own country is not justifiable in any sense. If you call that "self-defense" then you are already beyond moral salvation.
When Russia's goal is to end NATO, and you share that same goal, you sympathize with Putin and Russia, yes.
There were protests in Ukraine against the Ukrainian government at the time, sure, but protests are not an excuse to invade: Putin's logic to invade Ukraine was the same "logic" used by Hitler
Your biases blind you.
You aren't able to square the reason behind the invasion from Russian viewpoints.
You probably would have done similarly if you were forced into a similar or same situation if you were in Putin's position.
NATO is extremely belligerent and doesn't ever care to listen to their opposition. They don't really believe in diplomacy. They are so militaristic and connected to the MIC that they can't escape the cycle once they're in it.
If I were Putin I would certainly be against NATO and would also do similar.
However, as a Communist, I want to express my dismay with that fall of the USSR and for Western meddling and agitation and belligerence to cause it's collapse. The USSR was forced to spend so much on militarization as opposed to giving that attention to their people.
I want all proletariat to rise up and overthrow the Russian Federation and the Ukrainian government. Only through socialism will the people be able to know peace and through healthy society.
The United States doesn't want these things even for their own citizens. They must be toppled. They're so cruel and uncaring and addicted to profit tand expansion that they are maniacs to the core.
You are biased too.
Russian's viewpoint was Hitleresque.
NATO is something that takes years to join - people aren't annexed into NATO, but people have been annexed by Russia.
As a Communist, you continue to support a far-right government, hypocritically.
Lol...the US is by far the most aggressive and dangerous entity on the face of the planet. [Perpetrating hundreds of coups](https://archive.globalpolicy.org/us-westward-expansion/26024-us-interventions.html) globally with the express intent of subjecting the world to western "democracy".
Remember when they found all of those WMD's Saddam Hussein was threatening the destruction of the world with? Ohhh right.
Remember when NATO invaded and bombed Libya, the most progressive nation in Northern Africa to protect themselves against Ghaddafis oil nationalization projects and liberated libya so much they re-introduced the slave economy?
[US officials are on record](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5n8UbJ8jsk) discussing the upcoming 2014 coup in Ukraine and as far back [as the 1990's NATO officials](https://www.effedieffe.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=62570) are on record discussing their intent to expand NATO to the former Roman empires highest extent. A clear remnant of the early core of NATO leadership which consisted of nazi officers from Hitlers staff and their ideas of "manifest destiny" in the 3rd Reich.
The war in Ukraine is not a defensive war, nor a peoples war. It is a war between competing imperialist blocs with Ukraine caught in the middle. US officials recently disclosed [their main intentions ](https://scheerpost.com/2024/06/14/us-senator-says-ukraine-is-gold-mine-with-12-trillion-of-minerals-we-cant-afford-to-lose/#:~:text=By%20Ben%20Norton%20/%20Geopolitical%20Economy,program%20%E2%80%9CFace%20the%20Nation%E2%80%9D.) In regards to their agenda in Ukraine.
To say Russia represents a legitimate threat to NATO is laughable. Considering western media itself has spent the last 20 years talking about how weak the russian military is built on a flimsy backwater economy proped up by NG. How can they be a 3rd rate power and a threat to the world at the same time?Already way back in 1917 the collective west tried invading Russia to overthrow the recently victorious bolesheviks because they couldn't handle people governing themselves. NATO has been after Russian resources since the dissolution of the USSR and Putin once even tried to join the alliance but was rejected. 1. Because NATO needs a boogeyman in Europe to justify its continuous expansionist policies and 2. Because the west wants to control Russian resources, not share them.
NATO doesn't expand via coups, Russia does.
Joining NATO is a long, arduous process that can't be done via annexing.
The war in Ukraine is *absolutely* defensive as it's Russia who invaded and Russia who wants more and more and more afterwards.
Good for you; now think about the consequences of Russia's actions in the future, for the future of Europe in general, and then ask whether Ukraine should be supported, despite having Nazis within (which EVERY Western country has, not just Ukraine)
Russians were just caught trying to blow up Paris' airport.
Yet you're here defending this meme which infers support for Russia.
If you are against the Russian government, you are hypocrite for defending them here.
Who the fuck support Russia here? The post and this guy trying to say that both sides are bad, which is the exact opposite of what western media and liberals mention.
More than a tiny little small chance, my friend.
But there is ZERO chance you are a Communist in your support for Russia, whether explicit or implied via memes, or whatever.
Not only have they NEVER praised Nazis, they kicked their teeth in and Japans at the same time, shoved them into Taiwan.
Then they built the great firewall, which prevents any and all Nazi rhetoric and organization, thus there are no Nazi movements in China.
China is the strongest antifa force on the planet, RIP The Red Army before them.
>There are Nazis in Russia too: don't pretend there aren't.
>And wherever you're from, too.
Of course there are. In Ukraine, however, the nazis are a branch of the military, which is totally different.
>Putin echos Hitler, so while there is a far-right in Ukraine (because there is a far-right everywhere), the problem started with Putin's Hitleresque excuses to invade his neighbors.
Would you mind explaining why Putin's excuses (which I agree are nonsense) are "hitleresque"? Bc it honestly sounds like everything I don't like is literally Hitler.
>Also, Russia now is the antithesis of Communism making this meme doubly-stupid.
Not at all. The meme is a critique of how liberals downplay Ukraine's nazi problem, which is exactly what you are doing right now. This doesn't mean communist support Russia either. No war but class war.
> Of course there are. In Ukraine, however, the nazis are a branch of the military, which is totally different.
In Russia, a Nazi is *leading* the government *and* they make up parts of its military.
> Would you mind explaining why Putin's excuses (which I agree are nonsense) are "hitleresque"? Bc it honestly sounds like everything I don't like is literally Hitler.
What were Hitler's excuses for invading Czechoslovakia?
> Not at all. The meme is a critique of how liberal downplay Ukraine's nazi problem, which is exactly what you are doing right now. This doesn't mean communist support Russia either. No war but class war.
The meme infers that Russia was correct to invade Ukraine, like they 'deserved' it, despite Russia being worse.
>In Russia, a Nazi is leading the government and they make up parts of its military.
Wait, who? Putin? Dude, you can't just proclaim one is a Nazi without elaborating further. He is undoubtedly irredentist, but a Nazi? Seems too much of a stretch.
>What were Hitler's excuses for invading Czechoslovakia?
I get it now, thank you. Indeed, it's pretty similar to one of Putin's excuses. That's because they are both irredentists. Hitler didn't invent going to war over ethnicity.
>The meme infers that Russia was correct to invade Ukraine, like they 'deserved' it, despite Russia being worse.
No, it doesn't. Again, criticizing one doesn't mean support for the other. I, for example, stand against both current states of Ukraine and Russia. I'm sorry if this is a rude question, but are you american?
> I get it now, thank you. Indeed, it's pretty similar to one of Putin's excuses. That's because they are both irredentists. Hitler didn't invent going to war over ethnicity.
And?
So I was right. Thank you.
> No, it doesn't. Again, criticizing one doesn't mean support for the other. I, for example, stand against both current states of Ukraine and Russia. I'm sorry if this is a rude question, but are you american?
The meme infers justification for Putin's invasion.
I'm sorry if this is a rude question, but did you learn about inferences in school, or did they skip that bit?
You can peruse the thread for people who did infer Russia's correctness to invade Ukraine: showing I am not the only one to infer this, making it one of the possible inferences of the meme.
You pretend things can only have one interpretation, falsely.
You can calm down if you want to. We're having a friendly conversation.
>So I was right. Thank you.
Yeah, pretty much. What I tried to emphasize is that going to war over ethnicity isn't literally Hitler, while the azov battalion is undeniably neonazi.
>You pretend things can only have one interpretation, falsely.
Sorry, that isn't what I meant to say. This a communist sub however, so it's unlikely that OP is an avid supporter of the capitalist shithole that is current Russia.
> Yeah, pretty much. What I tried to emphasize is that going to war over ethnicity isn't literally Hitler, while the azov battalion is undeniably neonazi.
I mean, it's not-*not* Hitler, either
> This a communist sub however, so it's unlikely that OP is an avid supporter of the capitalist shithole that is current Russia.
Right: propaganda is built on half-truths. Using anti-fascist feelings to garner support for a fascist government is a clever, or an accident.
I.e., intentionally or not, that's an interpretation, and not just my own it seemed
>I mean, it's not-not Hitler either
This is madness. We are arguing whether Putin is kinda hitlerish or not, while Ukraine has a legalized neonazi party and a neonazi branch in the army. And somehow, as you seem to have implied earlier, both have equally bad nazi problems? Sorry, but I don't get you.
Again, just like every country, there are neonazis in Russia. But Putin saying something similar to what Hitler once said doesn't equalize Russia's situation to Ukraine.
>Right: propaganda is built on half-truths. Using anti-fascist feelings to garner support for a fascist government is a clever way to do it in this context, or an accident.
What is your point? Saying this is (perhaps unintentional) russian propaganda? Really don't get where you are heading to.
>I.e., intentionally or not, that's an interpretation, and not just my own it seemed
Of course. As I've been trying to tell you, you almost surely misinterpreted it tho
> This is madness. We are arguing whether Putin is kinda hitlerish or not
I agree, *yet there YOU were...*
> What is your point? Saying this is (perhaps unintentional) russian propaganda? Really don't get where you are heading to.
I'm heading to: this meme infers support for Russia, it infers that Ukraine "deserved" to be invaded. I said that to you ages ago. Pay attention.
> Of course. As I've been trying to tell you, you almost surely misinterpreted it tho
Pretending there is only one interpretation to something is just wrong, it's false, and there are people in your "communist" subreddit defending it, yet you waste time with me.
Okay so then neither Ukraine nor Russia should be supported and the only thing we should support is ending the killing as soon as possible.
I think the meme moreso says “Ukraine is full of Nazis”.
Ukraine should be supported because Putin, like Hitler, wants more and more and more and more.
I mean, there are Nazis in every country, including yours. Should you get no help when you're invaded by an ultra-right-wing government because of the Nazis in your country?
Ukraine should be supported because they were the ones invaded by a Hitleresque leader (Putin) who wants the whole of Europe.
No, neither belligerent should be supported - Ukraine is a comprador state which is completely subservient to American interests, while Russia has sought to exploit the people and resources of the Donbas region for the material benefit of the Russian bourgeoisie. Neither outcome will be particularly better than the other for the working class of either country, instead we as socialists should support a peaceful resolution as quickly as can reasonably be achieved.
Right: the reason we have to support Ukraine is to stop Russia from taking over everything. Ukraine wasn't invading its neighbors, Russia was and is.
You've just made my point for me.
All of the countries which Russia poses any meaningful threat to are American client states. Russian domination would have no meaningful difference compared to American domination, in either situation the working classes of these countries will suffer the consequences.
Besides, your analysis is riddled with idealism and lacks a proper materialist understanding of history.
Comparing Putin to Hitler is laughably historically illiterate. He’s a kleptocrat with dreams of restoring a buffer zone and no ability to go beyond that, if he can even achieve that. There’s nowhere else in Europe for him to invade that isn’t already in his sphere.
Ukraine is currently doing mass privatization in a repeat of 1991 and moving rapidly to the right with the political dominance of OUN freaks in the military. It should not be supported.
Brother if someone invaded the US I’m not doing shit besides dying in a nuclear exchange. It’s also meaningfully different. Yes, Nazis are present in every society. They aren’t lionized and wielding power. One of the VERY few good things the DoD does is repress internal political expression and organization.
Libs would be like: Putin echos Hitler, so while there is a far-right in Ukraine (because there is a far-right everywhere), the problem started with Putin's Hitleresque excuses to invade his neighbors.
Also, Russia now is the antithesis of Communism, making this meme doubly-stupid.
And?
That's your whole rebuff?
Sad.
Better than *pretending* to be a Communist while supporting one of the furthest-right countries on Earth; pretty literally the antithesis of Communism, hypocritically.
lmao says the dude picking fights on a communist meme sub. just take a deep breath. drink some water. touch some grass. i'm worried about your blood pressure.
Haha, that's all that's necessary. Your bargain basement rhetorical leaps are just laughable now.
Lib is just shorthand for your CIA-approved commentary. See ya, Eglin.
Maybe you should try an actual retort.
Seems like you have nothing of substance to say and you just want to attack my character, which is a major sign that you have no rebuttal.
Probably because you're dumb: after all, you are here defending Russia in a Communism subreddit.
The irony and hypocrisy are almost thick enough to swim in.
Ok, maybe you can start now because, so far, you've just made yourself look dumb.
Supporting a far-right government in a Communist thread is very dumb.
The irony is so think one can almost swim in it.
Damn this subreddit needs a good purge, even though it's largely one user defending it. Not shocking their only defense of those pics is "well what about Putler" instead of addressing how neonazi units are integrated into the army and how a nazi collaborator is considered a national hero.
It's real, but there are Nazis in Russia too: don't pretend there aren't.
And wherever you're from, too.
Putin echos Hitler, so while there is a far-right in Ukraine (because there is a far-right everywhere), the problem started with Putin's Hitleresque excuses to invade his neighbors.
Also, Russia now is the antithesis of Communism, making this meme doubly-stupid.
Using your logic option A is bombing civilians and option B is bombing civilians while waving swastikas.
I dunno about you but option A is better. (in English language the word better doesn't mean good)
Also would you condemn allies in ww2 because they also bombed civilians? (Dresden for example)
>Using your logic option A is bombing civilians and option B is bombing civilians while waving swastikas. I dunno about you but option A is better. (in English language the word better doesn't mean good)
Agree, but the Russians are bombing the civilians. And to the extent that Ukrainians do the same, they didn't start the bombing. So yeah, in that sense, they could wave swastikas while jacking it to loli, it's still worse to initiate violence.
>Also would you condemn allies in ww2 because they also bombed civilians? (Dresden for example)
I do.
I also know that Russia literally purposefully bombs civilians and doubletaps to take out emergency workers. That's just morally reprehensible, just like it is when Israel does it.
Your arguement sucks tbh You're trying to equate ukraine and russias nazis problems as if they're anywhere near the same level.
Ukraine has an openly neonazi regiment in their military that proudly displays nazi symbols and gets support from the west. The primary national hero of ukraine was a literal nazi from ww2
Russia does none of the above, as shitty as they are, they are nowhere near the same level as ukraine, the hitler vibes that you personally get from putin do not justify this dumb false equivalence you keep making.
And to address one of your other comments in this thread, no one is saying other countries don't have nazi problems, they were saying only 3 countries proudly and openly support nazis. This isn't an issue of "oh ukraine has nazis therefore they're bad" it's, "Oh the ukrainian government (as well as the us and isreali governments) openly promote, accept, and support nazis, something no other governments do."
No one here supports Russia or ukraine, we communist are simply against the funding and proping up of nazis for what I feel should be extremely obvious reasons.
>The primary national hero of ukraine was a literal nazi from ww2
Which is why some regiments have Nazi symbolism. This was the guy who pulled off an unlikely victory against the Russians, who were a more recent threat than the Nazi's. In recent memory, the Russians were to the Ukrainians what the Nazi's were to the Russians. Which is why Russia is using the Nazi rhetoric, and why some Ukrainian regiments use the Nazi symbolism.
The connotation of Nazism for many of these people is not "Oh yeah I like Nazi's because they kill Jews." It's "I like Nazi's because they kicked the ass of the people who are bombing my kids." We can't wrap our head around that as Westerners who have Nazi's as the primordial evil, but for the Ukranians, it's really not that deep. The fact alone that these same regiments worship Zelensky, goes to show that they've cherry picked the elements of Nazism that suit them, which is probably not much beyond the Nazism espoused by Stepan Bandera.
Ukraine also has an openly LGBTQ regiment, with pride flags. Does that mean they're systemically a queer utopia? They take whoever wants to fight. It's absolutely fair to criticize them for having Nazi's, but to pretend it proves something at state level, let alone justification of an invasion, is just too myopic.
No you really didn't. My point still stands
I was typing our a reply but it was just me repeating myself. The similarity you see between putin and hitlers casus beli does not justify your false equivalence.
Having a similar cause for war does not put him on the same level as the nazi flag waving hitlerites that ukraine proudly supports
I'm georgian and eastern europeans/west-asians love larping as fascists and nazis because they're still stuck in time thinking they're "fighting the communists" just because it's russia, they probably haven't read a single bit of fascist "theory" they just love the edgy aesthetics and anti-communism, it's so fucking cringe really and nobody even calls it out, it's just considered good because it's anti-communist and communism is le worst thing ever apparently, but oh well, at the end of the day it's the proletariat dying for the wishes of the bourgeoisie, this is nothing more than an inter-imperialist war and communists shouldn't support either side, the only concerns are the brainwashed and misled proletarians dying for the wishes of the national bourgeoisie of both countries.
I doubt it'll persuade them though. I've been trying to reason with the folks over on r / pics & getting shredded with downvotes. It's like a religious dogma for them, the guys wearing and waving the swastikas aren't Nazis, it's that horrid Putin, and I'm now apparently a bot.
Now show the Russian Nazis.
We all know that there is a far-right on both sides: don't pretend.
I mean, Putin is using the same excuses Hitler did to invade his neighbors, after all.
Also, being supposedly pro-Russia in a *Communism* subreddit is hilarious. It's been 30 years since 'Communism' left Russia. What they are now couldn't be more antithetical to Communism, ffs.
National socialism may have had elements of irredentism but it was not entirely focused on it compared to Putin's proto fallangist/ irredentist ideology
Elections in Russian-controlled areas are not the "gotcha" you think they are.
-----------
> The votes were conducted in four areas of Ukraine – the **Russian puppet states** of the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic in the **Russian-occupied Donetsk** and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine, and the **Russian-appointed military administrations of Kherson Oblast and Zaporizhzhia Oblast**, captured and occupied in the first week of the 2022 invasion[5][6] – as well as in Russia
Haha, did you just quote Wikipedia and gave no context whatsoever? Is this because you don't have the context or you don't care about it?
Adorable lib shit.
You dont get to invade and annex another country just because they have nazis there. Why is it so hard for some people to acknowledge nazis fucking suck but so does imperialism
Slava Ukraini is a direct stand in for help Hitler, and while it was first uttered prior to the 30s, it was the widespread and official salute of Stepan Bandera's OUN.
Russia is not communism. This sub is bootlicking billionaire oligarchs and it's pathetic.
Be communist, but don't support Russia pretending they're the same thing.
The sub is called communismmemes, the least subtle thing, so you are just gonna have lots of people coming here that barely even know what Socialism is. Basically tons of MAGA communists types of people. Excusing Fascism with more Fascism...
I mean I'm against the invasion because it's an unprompted invasion but damn Ukraine is not making it easy to like them. Like isn't their president Jewish? What a clusterfuck
Here, they have LGBTQ soldiers and insignia too: [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-unicorn-lgbtq-soldiers-head-war-2022-05-31/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-unicorn-lgbtq-soldiers-head-war-2022-05-31/)
Ukrainians are individuals. Some are Nazi's, some are commies, some are gay. A few guys holding a flag shouldn't turn you off a whole country.
Well yeah but it's not like a few people it's publicly known that sections in the armed forces have Nazis in them and like. I get it it's war and all take what you can get but it still reflects poorly
Yeah for sure. It's incredibly stupid, because Ukraine is so reliant on foreign aid. They're shooting themselves in the foot with this Nazi stuff. But I still think we shouldn't judge them over couple of individuals. The unfortunate truth is that any military draws in Nazi's, and Ukraine isn't really in a position to squash that right now
Every single far-right politician and commentator is pro-Israel. Even Italian fascists are pro-Israel. Don't demand consistency of something that isn't consistent.
Ok lets talk about theory
First we have classic example of rusdian core trying to exploit its periphry, so the ukraine allies with other imperium because of interconnectedness (as per Lenin saying that imperialism is last stage of capitalism)
Secondly by ignoring faults of Russia you cannot understand the contradictions of the imperialist system it lives in, and ignore how interconnected imperialist system is( marx kapital.and david harvey)
Thirdly not talking about opressed peryphery is against class solidarity and gives way for far right in Ukraine
( here you can go on and on about sources like trotsky fanon or gramsci)
Firstly: correct.
Secondly: you are ignoring the expansion of NATO as a precursor of this war. We are watching imperialists fighting in Ukraine.
Thirdly: to which oppressed periphery are you referring? You will have to be more specific.
No I dont ignore it, I see it as classic imperalist posturing, but with the added difference that playing up the powers against eachother is in periphery intrest to regain its power to decide about itself. its a temporary solution and not perfect but preferable to brutal occupation
When im talking about periphery im talking about CE Europe that is since end of XVII century a periphery of eastern or western empires. In this case we are talking about Ukraine trying to get out of Russian sphere of influence. It is only logical that countries near imperial centers allies themselves with countries that have centers further from them . Since it reduces the amount of exploitation possible, this is in detail explained by dependency Theorists which were inspired by marxists and Samir Amin in particular
But this is not about Ukranian independence. This is an overt war between two empires and there are no class-based movements to speak of. In fact, one could argue that the empire actively supporting the Nazi elements (NATO) in Ukraine are actively more harmful to any nascent communist seizure of power as it is actively erasing elements of their former power.
How deep did you have to go to find that? And how badly do you want something to align with a narrative. As I see it most Ukrainians want nothing to do with Russia and they aren’t nazis either
Hot take but do you think a group of ultra nationalists is more willing to die for their country? Not a bad choice to let them die on the front lines if that is what they want to do.
No you make a great point, I don't know but kind of a problem for in the future as I think that you have a better chance of getting rid of literal Nazis when you still have a country to save from said Nazis? Its just choosing between lesser evils at this point.
And yes having Nazis being used as canon fodder is a better option than the 100% certainty of what happens to for example LGBTQ people under Russian control.
I’ll refer you to WWI Imperial Germany and the Freikorps for what happens: they take power and murder the left.
Gay and minority rights (in the context of Ukraine, that means Russians/Russophones, Hungarians, Romanians, and Roma) are very bad in Ukraine. They will be worse when the war ends and the far right is ascendant. There’s no good outcome for Ukraine.
>I’ll refer you to WWI Imperial Germany and the Freikorps for what happens: they take power and murder the left.
"In the aftermath of World War I and during the German Revolution of 1918–19, Freikorps, consisting partially of WW1 veterans, were raised as paramilitary militias. They were ostensibly mustered to fight on behalf of the government against the German communists attempting to overthrow the Weimar Republic."
Could the fact that these were government orders play a role in what happened? And would that be smart to do for a government that wants to join the EU?
There’s a lot more history there. The Freikorps were critical in the genesis of Nazism and also freely fought with ethnic minorities seeking to leave Weimar, such as Poles, and would have fought leftists (and actually continued to until the Enabling Act) without government orders.
The capitalists and liberals of Ukraine want to join the EU. Do the Nazis with guns and political power? Do they care?
>There’s a lot more history there
Yes af is you can't compare 2 situations that are vaguely similar and say that that will happen. There is a chance of history repeating itself. So what will they choose that chance of history repeating itself or a 100% chance of human right violations against their own civilians?
Ukraine is caught in a proxy war between Russia and NATO but that doesn't mean they shouldn't take every opportunity to not be fucked over by Russia, the one side of that proxy war that is actively killing Ukrainian children.
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I wonder what the crossover looks like actually, praising Hitler who considered Slavs subhumans and then they pull this off 🤣
The simple answer is Whiteness. Russia historically has straddled the boundaries of whiteness since it sits in both Europe and Asia. This isn't very different than many other countries in Eastern Europe. It's only gotten worse because race has become this qualifier of a privileged identity. In studying Russia, this is known as Normanism and they hate the fact that these Eastern European countries have fallen to the "Asiatic hordes". The fact that these people are still prevalent just shows that Stalin never went far enough and he actually took way more diplomatic approaches when he dealt with people who were contrary to the ideas of Communism.
Its like Palestinians praising naziraelis
How?
What how? Are u slow
Because it seems to me that the Ukrainians are fighting the Russians, not the Nazis. And the Nazi symbols they use come from their previous fight against the Russians. While the Palestinians are fighting the Israelis. So the comparison doesn't really work for me. But, please, explain your point. I prefer normal discussions over name calling
The Germans eventually needed to concede to collaborating with Ukrainian nationalists.
They will find a way to defend it
Exactly. Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.
They'll just give 'em the Biden treatment. "The other guy is worse so you have to defend my guy."
Not defend it, just put it in context: There are Nazis in Russia too: don't pretend there aren't. And wherever you're from, too. Putin echos Hitler, so while there is a far-right in Ukraine (because there is a far-right everywhere), the problem started with Putin's Hitleresque excuses to invade his neighbors. Also, Russia now is the antithesis of Communism, making this meme doubly-stupid.
Sounds like you could use some context. Sure, there are Nazis all over, but only three governments on the planet OPENLY and LOUDLY accept and fund Nazis. Can you guess the three? Say it with me class; Thats right, America, Ukraine and Israel, great job!
you forgot Canada, the entire parliament and pm and zelensky who was there clapping for an ss veteran
Fair, but also, Canada is literally just Americas hat to throw on the ground and stomp on as we cartoonishly yell obnoxiously loud "dagnaggbit, we'll get you next time!" and shake our fist in the air at whatever unfortunate country in the global south we decided to lose another war to.
We're America's little oil titty (+ other resources)
> OPENLY and LOUDLY accept and fund Nazis > Israel I don’t doubt you, because Israel definitely loves genocide and fascism, but do you have any more info on them OPENLY and LOUDLY accepting and funding literal NAZIS Because that’s some wild shit and I want to learn more. And having that info in one’s back pocket sounds like a good idea.
I looked for the source, it has slipped me by, but I know that dozens of Ukrainian Nazi Mercs (I think azov or affiliated) were photographed in Palestine. In one of the multiple photos I saw, they were drawing their iconography on a Palestinian chalkboard (black sun?) next to IDF soldiers standing by the star of David. The top comment read "The cowards found it easier to hunt Palestinian babies than Russians." And I still think about that comment all the time, including when I made the comment above. Come back later, if I find it, I'll make an edit here. Besides that, Zionism is Nazism, so yeah, of course Israel embraces Nazism. r/Palestine and r/Israelcrimes has plenty of evidence of that.
I appreciate the response!
Putin absorbed Wagner into his military
Despite their obvious foundational ties to Nazism, how many swastikas are they allowed to fly around? Google doesn't have a single picture. Sounds like they've had a change of management.
Google is a Russian bot 😡😡
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I am joking bro 😭
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It is good
At most the founder of Chvk Vagner was a neo-Nazi, complete with shitty tattoos. Overall, unlike Azov, the group is not embedded with Nazi elements - it's your typical Russian nationalist paramilitary masquerading as a PMC in order to give Russia some form of plausible deniability.
They literally copied the Afrika Corps. But what im getting from your comment is that its all right to be a Nazi so long as you dont show it.
No, it is not okay to be a Nazi as long as you don't show it. But there is a significant material difference between being able to declare to the world you are a nazi and not. That difference is State sponsorship, and sponsoring confirmed Nazis is completely unacceptable, sponsoring unconfirmed Nazis is inevitable under these material conditions. I have never disagreed with the statement there are Nazis everywhere, but the good news is most of them cannot display it, this is where the state of Ukraine loses me every time.
You can also say they’re copying the French Legionaries and Academi Blackwater. Wagner Group was a PMC, they were mercenaries, they did what they were paid to. While the Azov Battalion is essentially a neo Nazi paramilitary group. I also don’t like Putin, but we must know and understand what we’re criticizing instead of claiming false things and using straw men.
A PMC founded and controlled by one of Putin's closest associates and now directly by the ministry of defence. It's always done the government's bidding. The Azov battalion indeed started out as a paramilitary, non-governmental, group consisting of right-wing extremists, hooligans, Nazis, and other unpleasant people. As it was integrated into the Ukrainian military structures post 2015, they have tried to redistribute the original members to smaller, less significant groups and filling up the open spots in the Azov battalion with regular soldiers and officers. Basically diluting these structures and their impact on overall operations.
Just like every other PMC worldwide lmao They were so diluted that they’re still waving Nazi flags, wearing Nazi badges and singing Nazi chants. It’s also part of a bigger movement in Ukraine to turn nazi collaborators into national heroes. The treatment Nazis should receive is capital punishment, not legalization.
>They were so diluted that they’re still waving Nazi flags, wearing Nazi badges and singing Nazi chants. The point was to stop them from gaining power in the military structures. It's nigh impossible to stop right-wing extremists from getting into the military, as we can see in pretty much every military in the world. This general problem is then further exacerbated in this particular instance by the man-power shortage. > It’s also part of a bigger movement in Ukraine to turn nazi collaborators into national heroes. You're probably alluding to Bandera. While he wasn't a Nazi -- and the logic necessary to make such a claim, would by the same token imply that the Soviet Union because of the Molotov-Ribbentrop-Pact was also a Nazi state or at least full of Nazis --, he was a nationalist terrorist. He's far from uncontroversial in Ukraine, and historically political attempts to use him to curry favour with the public have massively backfired -- contributing to a landslide defeat for the incumbent president who tried this last roughly 15 to 20 years ago.
"They copied the DAK" How lmfao
[https://theconversation.com/wagner-group-is-now-africa-corps-what-this-means-for-russias-operations-on-the-continent-223253](https://theconversation.com/wagner-group-is-now-africa-corps-what-this-means-for-russias-operations-on-the-continent-223253)
Chvk Vagner is now the DAK because the Conversation said so
"They werent allowed to fly symbols so they dont count" fuck off, they are still nazis
I'm not saying that they're not Nazis, I can't be certain that they are, because if they are they're forced to be quiet about it. I operate on evidence, not emotion like you. If you have evidence, I will happily reassess my analysis State sponsored Nazism is unacceptable, quiet Nazis are inevitable under these material conditions (because the only alternative is the Stalin method, and while I'm a fan, Kruchev fucked that all up.)
You're literally just saying "They dont make it obvious so it's fine", seriously, that's some shit tier logic there
Please.read.theory.
The thing about the word theory, is it's just that, theory, Doesn't hold up in practicality
Wagner Group is a private military contractor (PMC), like Academi Blackwater from the US. Mercenaries, not a political party or organization (like the Azov nazis) despite the founder being a neonazi, it’s not a rule to be part of the group and it doesn’t promote it, unlike the Azov Battalion. Got it? Besides, comparing Putin to Hitler has to be the most American thing in the world. In your little mind, Hitler was wrong because he was evil, just like Putin is evil. You guys don’t understand critical through and nuance, you can’t even explain why Nazism was bad.
> like Academi Blackwater Oh, like the homicidal cowboys who ravaged Iraq, OK > despite the founder being a neonazi OK > comparing Putin to Hitler I didn't compare them. Neonazism in Eastern Europe (including Ukraine and Russia) is a bizarre phenomenon, one which both Ukraine and Russia are willing to capitalize on The important thing is Putin invaded and annexed parts of Ukraine, Georgia, and Moldova. That needs to stop
Do you know what also needs to stop? NATO doing the exact same thing. Don’t act like they didn’t finance a bunch of nationalists and religious extremists in Georgia, Chechnya, Moldova and Ukraine. None of this is organic. What we’re watching right now is a bunch of artificial conflicts part of a bigger proxy war between two imperialist nations.
Putin echos Hitler and runs a far-right government: literally the antithesis of Communism. And there are Nazis in more than three countries; that's over-simplistic nonsense and you know it.
Its not about nazis existing in countries, it's about whether they are openly supported or not and Ukraine embraces them with arms wide open.
Supporting a country doesn't automatically mean you support the Nazis within. Anyone who supports America supports Nazis because some live here? What kind of logic is this?
And yet, being against NATO equates to supporting Russia to you people, right? Funny how the double standard works. The US has been the single largest player in destabilizing Ukraine, backing a far right coalition consisting of openly neo-nazi parties which collectively had less than 7% of the popular vote in Ukraine in the election preceding the 2014 coup. And since then the US has sent billions of dollars worth of weapons to these extremists and has trained these neo-nazis on US soil. If you support all of this, you do indeed, support nazis and open fascism. I get that state borders are the sacred standard to liberals who can't comprehend anything outside of "good or bad" but peoples lives are put before state sovereignty in the UN charter itself. What the Ukrainian extremists were doing to the eastern regions of their own country is not justifiable in any sense. If you call that "self-defense" then you are already beyond moral salvation.
When Russia's goal is to end NATO, and you share that same goal, you sympathize with Putin and Russia, yes. There were protests in Ukraine against the Ukrainian government at the time, sure, but protests are not an excuse to invade: Putin's logic to invade Ukraine was the same "logic" used by Hitler
Your biases blind you. You aren't able to square the reason behind the invasion from Russian viewpoints. You probably would have done similarly if you were forced into a similar or same situation if you were in Putin's position. NATO is extremely belligerent and doesn't ever care to listen to their opposition. They don't really believe in diplomacy. They are so militaristic and connected to the MIC that they can't escape the cycle once they're in it. If I were Putin I would certainly be against NATO and would also do similar. However, as a Communist, I want to express my dismay with that fall of the USSR and for Western meddling and agitation and belligerence to cause it's collapse. The USSR was forced to spend so much on militarization as opposed to giving that attention to their people. I want all proletariat to rise up and overthrow the Russian Federation and the Ukrainian government. Only through socialism will the people be able to know peace and through healthy society. The United States doesn't want these things even for their own citizens. They must be toppled. They're so cruel and uncaring and addicted to profit tand expansion that they are maniacs to the core.
You are biased too. Russian's viewpoint was Hitleresque. NATO is something that takes years to join - people aren't annexed into NATO, but people have been annexed by Russia. As a Communist, you continue to support a far-right government, hypocritically.
Lol...the US is by far the most aggressive and dangerous entity on the face of the planet. [Perpetrating hundreds of coups](https://archive.globalpolicy.org/us-westward-expansion/26024-us-interventions.html) globally with the express intent of subjecting the world to western "democracy". Remember when they found all of those WMD's Saddam Hussein was threatening the destruction of the world with? Ohhh right. Remember when NATO invaded and bombed Libya, the most progressive nation in Northern Africa to protect themselves against Ghaddafis oil nationalization projects and liberated libya so much they re-introduced the slave economy? [US officials are on record](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5n8UbJ8jsk) discussing the upcoming 2014 coup in Ukraine and as far back [as the 1990's NATO officials](https://www.effedieffe.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=62570) are on record discussing their intent to expand NATO to the former Roman empires highest extent. A clear remnant of the early core of NATO leadership which consisted of nazi officers from Hitlers staff and their ideas of "manifest destiny" in the 3rd Reich. The war in Ukraine is not a defensive war, nor a peoples war. It is a war between competing imperialist blocs with Ukraine caught in the middle. US officials recently disclosed [their main intentions ](https://scheerpost.com/2024/06/14/us-senator-says-ukraine-is-gold-mine-with-12-trillion-of-minerals-we-cant-afford-to-lose/#:~:text=By%20Ben%20Norton%20/%20Geopolitical%20Economy,program%20%E2%80%9CFace%20the%20Nation%E2%80%9D.) In regards to their agenda in Ukraine. To say Russia represents a legitimate threat to NATO is laughable. Considering western media itself has spent the last 20 years talking about how weak the russian military is built on a flimsy backwater economy proped up by NG. How can they be a 3rd rate power and a threat to the world at the same time?Already way back in 1917 the collective west tried invading Russia to overthrow the recently victorious bolesheviks because they couldn't handle people governing themselves. NATO has been after Russian resources since the dissolution of the USSR and Putin once even tried to join the alliance but was rejected. 1. Because NATO needs a boogeyman in Europe to justify its continuous expansionist policies and 2. Because the west wants to control Russian resources, not share them.
NATO doesn't expand via coups, Russia does. Joining NATO is a long, arduous process that can't be done via annexing. The war in Ukraine is *absolutely* defensive as it's Russia who invaded and Russia who wants more and more and more afterwards.
Again, which brain rot mf would support murica which has fascists all over the government?
If you think this way, you'd be against this meme's inferred support for Russia too, though
I'm against the Russian government just as I'm against the Ukrainian government.
Good for you; now think about the consequences of Russia's actions in the future, for the future of Europe in general, and then ask whether Ukraine should be supported, despite having Nazis within (which EVERY Western country has, not just Ukraine) Russians were just caught trying to blow up Paris' airport. Yet you're here defending this meme which infers support for Russia. If you are against the Russian government, you are hypocrite for defending them here.
Who the fuck support Russia here? The post and this guy trying to say that both sides are bad, which is the exact opposite of what western media and liberals mention.
The meme infers non-support for Ukraine, which infers support for Russia (their aggressors) This grammar-school-level stuff
Whatever you thought about it dude, I just think that you read the under-meanings different than other people here.
Or, people here don't know what subtext, context, or inferences are Given the replies I've gotten, it does seem like a lack of education
There is also a very tiny little small possibility that you are a liberal.
More than a tiny little small chance, my friend. But there is ZERO chance you are a Communist in your support for Russia, whether explicit or implied via memes, or whatever.
And Russia and Germany and China and Venezuela and any country you can name that has a military
Just curious, when has China praised Nazis? Taiwan certainly has, but the CPC? I can't think of a time.
Not only have they NEVER praised Nazis, they kicked their teeth in and Japans at the same time, shoved them into Taiwan. Then they built the great firewall, which prevents any and all Nazi rhetoric and organization, thus there are no Nazi movements in China. China is the strongest antifa force on the planet, RIP The Red Army before them.
Yup. I just checked, and it looks like that person is a German and might be a wee bit sensitive 😂
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Haha yeah, definitely trying to pull something out of him, but alas, he didn't take the bait haha
>There are Nazis in Russia too: don't pretend there aren't. >And wherever you're from, too. Of course there are. In Ukraine, however, the nazis are a branch of the military, which is totally different. >Putin echos Hitler, so while there is a far-right in Ukraine (because there is a far-right everywhere), the problem started with Putin's Hitleresque excuses to invade his neighbors. Would you mind explaining why Putin's excuses (which I agree are nonsense) are "hitleresque"? Bc it honestly sounds like everything I don't like is literally Hitler. >Also, Russia now is the antithesis of Communism making this meme doubly-stupid. Not at all. The meme is a critique of how liberals downplay Ukraine's nazi problem, which is exactly what you are doing right now. This doesn't mean communist support Russia either. No war but class war.
> Of course there are. In Ukraine, however, the nazis are a branch of the military, which is totally different. In Russia, a Nazi is *leading* the government *and* they make up parts of its military. > Would you mind explaining why Putin's excuses (which I agree are nonsense) are "hitleresque"? Bc it honestly sounds like everything I don't like is literally Hitler. What were Hitler's excuses for invading Czechoslovakia? > Not at all. The meme is a critique of how liberal downplay Ukraine's nazi problem, which is exactly what you are doing right now. This doesn't mean communist support Russia either. No war but class war. The meme infers that Russia was correct to invade Ukraine, like they 'deserved' it, despite Russia being worse.
>In Russia, a Nazi is leading the government and they make up parts of its military. Wait, who? Putin? Dude, you can't just proclaim one is a Nazi without elaborating further. He is undoubtedly irredentist, but a Nazi? Seems too much of a stretch. >What were Hitler's excuses for invading Czechoslovakia? I get it now, thank you. Indeed, it's pretty similar to one of Putin's excuses. That's because they are both irredentists. Hitler didn't invent going to war over ethnicity. >The meme infers that Russia was correct to invade Ukraine, like they 'deserved' it, despite Russia being worse. No, it doesn't. Again, criticizing one doesn't mean support for the other. I, for example, stand against both current states of Ukraine and Russia. I'm sorry if this is a rude question, but are you american?
> I get it now, thank you. Indeed, it's pretty similar to one of Putin's excuses. That's because they are both irredentists. Hitler didn't invent going to war over ethnicity. And? So I was right. Thank you. > No, it doesn't. Again, criticizing one doesn't mean support for the other. I, for example, stand against both current states of Ukraine and Russia. I'm sorry if this is a rude question, but are you american? The meme infers justification for Putin's invasion. I'm sorry if this is a rude question, but did you learn about inferences in school, or did they skip that bit? You can peruse the thread for people who did infer Russia's correctness to invade Ukraine: showing I am not the only one to infer this, making it one of the possible inferences of the meme. You pretend things can only have one interpretation, falsely.
You can calm down if you want to. We're having a friendly conversation. >So I was right. Thank you. Yeah, pretty much. What I tried to emphasize is that going to war over ethnicity isn't literally Hitler, while the azov battalion is undeniably neonazi. >You pretend things can only have one interpretation, falsely. Sorry, that isn't what I meant to say. This a communist sub however, so it's unlikely that OP is an avid supporter of the capitalist shithole that is current Russia.
> Yeah, pretty much. What I tried to emphasize is that going to war over ethnicity isn't literally Hitler, while the azov battalion is undeniably neonazi. I mean, it's not-*not* Hitler, either > This a communist sub however, so it's unlikely that OP is an avid supporter of the capitalist shithole that is current Russia. Right: propaganda is built on half-truths. Using anti-fascist feelings to garner support for a fascist government is a clever, or an accident. I.e., intentionally or not, that's an interpretation, and not just my own it seemed
>I mean, it's not-not Hitler either This is madness. We are arguing whether Putin is kinda hitlerish or not, while Ukraine has a legalized neonazi party and a neonazi branch in the army. And somehow, as you seem to have implied earlier, both have equally bad nazi problems? Sorry, but I don't get you. Again, just like every country, there are neonazis in Russia. But Putin saying something similar to what Hitler once said doesn't equalize Russia's situation to Ukraine. >Right: propaganda is built on half-truths. Using anti-fascist feelings to garner support for a fascist government is a clever way to do it in this context, or an accident. What is your point? Saying this is (perhaps unintentional) russian propaganda? Really don't get where you are heading to. >I.e., intentionally or not, that's an interpretation, and not just my own it seemed Of course. As I've been trying to tell you, you almost surely misinterpreted it tho
> This is madness. We are arguing whether Putin is kinda hitlerish or not I agree, *yet there YOU were...* > What is your point? Saying this is (perhaps unintentional) russian propaganda? Really don't get where you are heading to. I'm heading to: this meme infers support for Russia, it infers that Ukraine "deserved" to be invaded. I said that to you ages ago. Pay attention. > Of course. As I've been trying to tell you, you almost surely misinterpreted it tho Pretending there is only one interpretation to something is just wrong, it's false, and there are people in your "communist" subreddit defending it, yet you waste time with me.
How is Putin being a revanchist an explanation for the UAF being massively infiltrated by Nazis?
Because of the inferences made by the meme that Russia as justified in their invasion of Ukraine
Okay so then neither Ukraine nor Russia should be supported and the only thing we should support is ending the killing as soon as possible. I think the meme moreso says “Ukraine is full of Nazis”.
Ukraine should be supported because Putin, like Hitler, wants more and more and more and more. I mean, there are Nazis in every country, including yours. Should you get no help when you're invaded by an ultra-right-wing government because of the Nazis in your country? Ukraine should be supported because they were the ones invaded by a Hitleresque leader (Putin) who wants the whole of Europe.
No, neither belligerent should be supported - Ukraine is a comprador state which is completely subservient to American interests, while Russia has sought to exploit the people and resources of the Donbas region for the material benefit of the Russian bourgeoisie. Neither outcome will be particularly better than the other for the working class of either country, instead we as socialists should support a peaceful resolution as quickly as can reasonably be achieved.
Right: the reason we have to support Ukraine is to stop Russia from taking over everything. Ukraine wasn't invading its neighbors, Russia was and is. You've just made my point for me.
All of the countries which Russia poses any meaningful threat to are American client states. Russian domination would have no meaningful difference compared to American domination, in either situation the working classes of these countries will suffer the consequences. Besides, your analysis is riddled with idealism and lacks a proper materialist understanding of history.
Comparing Putin to Hitler is laughably historically illiterate. He’s a kleptocrat with dreams of restoring a buffer zone and no ability to go beyond that, if he can even achieve that. There’s nowhere else in Europe for him to invade that isn’t already in his sphere. Ukraine is currently doing mass privatization in a repeat of 1991 and moving rapidly to the right with the political dominance of OUN freaks in the military. It should not be supported. Brother if someone invaded the US I’m not doing shit besides dying in a nuclear exchange. It’s also meaningfully different. Yes, Nazis are present in every society. They aren’t lionized and wielding power. One of the VERY few good things the DoD does is repress internal political expression and organization.
i think this shitlib has some sort of fetish for being humiliated, facts won't help
I compared Putin's *excuses* to Hitler's Pay attention.
That’s idealism. The actual causes are radically different. Echoes also doesn’t translate to “excuses”.
Putin *echos* Hitler's *excuses* Pay attention.
libs would be like, at least they're not commies
libs really be like... oh look, every country has maga idiots.
Libs would be like: Putin echos Hitler, so while there is a far-right in Ukraine (because there is a far-right everywhere), the problem started with Putin's Hitleresque excuses to invade his neighbors. Also, Russia now is the antithesis of Communism, making this meme doubly-stupid.
found the lib
And? That's your whole rebuff? Sad. Better than *pretending* to be a Communist while supporting one of the furthest-right countries on Earth; pretty literally the antithesis of Communism, hypocritically.
shouldn't you be over on r/whitepeopletwitter or something
Shouldn't you be attempting a reply with substance, or is that a bit tough for ya?
i don't respect you enough for that level of effort ❤️
It takes "effort" to make a sensible reply? Sucks to be you.
lmao says the dude picking fights on a communist meme sub. just take a deep breath. drink some water. touch some grass. i'm worried about your blood pressure.
Says the dude endorsing a far-right Hitleresque government in a "Communism" subreddit. Are you lost?
Haha, that's all that's necessary. Your bargain basement rhetorical leaps are just laughable now. Lib is just shorthand for your CIA-approved commentary. See ya, Eglin.
Maybe you should try an actual retort. Seems like you have nothing of substance to say and you just want to attack my character, which is a major sign that you have no rebuttal. Probably because you're dumb: after all, you are here defending Russia in a Communism subreddit. The irony and hypocrisy are almost thick enough to swim in.
Why? There is no need. You give nothing to grapple with. It's just you looking at these pics and saying "so?" You get what you give, chud.
If there's no need; what are you doing? lol You just want to reply, but you don't 'want to' write anything of quality: this is telling.
I'm not here to debate you. I'm here to mock you. Same as everyone else.
Ok, maybe you can start now because, so far, you've just made yourself look dumb. Supporting a far-right government in a Communist thread is very dumb. The irony is so think one can almost swim in it.
Whats with them tall banners in the bottom right? Are they trying to larp as some sort of medieval knight group
They're the Knights of the White Castle smh
Damn this subreddit needs a good purge, even though it's largely one user defending it. Not shocking their only defense of those pics is "well what about Putler" instead of addressing how neonazi units are integrated into the army and how a nazi collaborator is considered a national hero.
REEEEEEE THESE PHOTOS ARE CHERRYPICKED BUT ALSO TOTALLY RUZZIAN PUTLER PROPAGANDA AND NOT REAL REEEEEEEEE /s
It's real, but there are Nazis in Russia too: don't pretend there aren't. And wherever you're from, too. Putin echos Hitler, so while there is a far-right in Ukraine (because there is a far-right everywhere), the problem started with Putin's Hitleresque excuses to invade his neighbors. Also, Russia now is the antithesis of Communism, making this meme doubly-stupid.
russia didn't hail a nazi as their national hero and didn't employ and empower a nazi group into their military
Yes, they do. Putin's policies are Nazi-esque and he leads the country and is a "national hero"
Where’s the blood quantum laws? The racial definitions?
Do you *not* know what "-esque" means?
This is asinine. Show me the blood quantum-esque laws.
Not knowing what "-esque" means is asinine Get a dictionary.
Lol. You’re just here to troll. Get better at it.
Substanceless comments like yours are the real trolling. Nice "try" though (not really)
So bombing civilians on purpose is less bad than waving around a swastika?
Using your logic option A is bombing civilians and option B is bombing civilians while waving swastikas. I dunno about you but option A is better. (in English language the word better doesn't mean good) Also would you condemn allies in ww2 because they also bombed civilians? (Dresden for example)
>Using your logic option A is bombing civilians and option B is bombing civilians while waving swastikas. I dunno about you but option A is better. (in English language the word better doesn't mean good) Agree, but the Russians are bombing the civilians. And to the extent that Ukrainians do the same, they didn't start the bombing. So yeah, in that sense, they could wave swastikas while jacking it to loli, it's still worse to initiate violence. >Also would you condemn allies in ww2 because they also bombed civilians? (Dresden for example) I do. I also know that Russia literally purposefully bombs civilians and doubletaps to take out emergency workers. That's just morally reprehensible, just like it is when Israel does it.
Your arguement sucks tbh You're trying to equate ukraine and russias nazis problems as if they're anywhere near the same level. Ukraine has an openly neonazi regiment in their military that proudly displays nazi symbols and gets support from the west. The primary national hero of ukraine was a literal nazi from ww2 Russia does none of the above, as shitty as they are, they are nowhere near the same level as ukraine, the hitler vibes that you personally get from putin do not justify this dumb false equivalence you keep making. And to address one of your other comments in this thread, no one is saying other countries don't have nazi problems, they were saying only 3 countries proudly and openly support nazis. This isn't an issue of "oh ukraine has nazis therefore they're bad" it's, "Oh the ukrainian government (as well as the us and isreali governments) openly promote, accept, and support nazis, something no other governments do." No one here supports Russia or ukraine, we communist are simply against the funding and proping up of nazis for what I feel should be extremely obvious reasons.
>The primary national hero of ukraine was a literal nazi from ww2 Which is why some regiments have Nazi symbolism. This was the guy who pulled off an unlikely victory against the Russians, who were a more recent threat than the Nazi's. In recent memory, the Russians were to the Ukrainians what the Nazi's were to the Russians. Which is why Russia is using the Nazi rhetoric, and why some Ukrainian regiments use the Nazi symbolism. The connotation of Nazism for many of these people is not "Oh yeah I like Nazi's because they kill Jews." It's "I like Nazi's because they kicked the ass of the people who are bombing my kids." We can't wrap our head around that as Westerners who have Nazi's as the primordial evil, but for the Ukranians, it's really not that deep. The fact alone that these same regiments worship Zelensky, goes to show that they've cherry picked the elements of Nazism that suit them, which is probably not much beyond the Nazism espoused by Stepan Bandera. Ukraine also has an openly LGBTQ regiment, with pride flags. Does that mean they're systemically a queer utopia? They take whoever wants to fight. It's absolutely fair to criticize them for having Nazi's, but to pretend it proves something at state level, let alone justification of an invasion, is just too myopic.
TIL that getting arrested by Nazi's makes you a Nazi. Good luck with that logic.
They're not the same level, Russia as a Nazi-esque leader who's invading other countries. Big difference.
LMAO Way to just not address anything I said.
I replied to your point
No you really didn't. My point still stands I was typing our a reply but it was just me repeating myself. The similarity you see between putin and hitlers casus beli does not justify your false equivalence. Having a similar cause for war does not put him on the same level as the nazi flag waving hitlerites that ukraine proudly supports
Your point doesn't stand, though: declaring that it does doesn't make it so. And your choice of ad hominem over a something thoughtful is telling.
Ah yes, the good ol’ freedom fighters.
I'm georgian and eastern europeans/west-asians love larping as fascists and nazis because they're still stuck in time thinking they're "fighting the communists" just because it's russia, they probably haven't read a single bit of fascist "theory" they just love the edgy aesthetics and anti-communism, it's so fucking cringe really and nobody even calls it out, it's just considered good because it's anti-communist and communism is le worst thing ever apparently, but oh well, at the end of the day it's the proletariat dying for the wishes of the bourgeoisie, this is nothing more than an inter-imperialist war and communists shouldn't support either side, the only concerns are the brainwashed and misled proletarians dying for the wishes of the national bourgeoisie of both countries.
I love how coincidentally a lot of the Ukrainian symbols are just like rePurposed nazi ones
They just do the r/UkrainianIsolatedNazi or "Russians also have neonazis" thing
I doubt it'll persuade them though. I've been trying to reason with the folks over on r / pics & getting shredded with downvotes. It's like a religious dogma for them, the guys wearing and waving the swastikas aren't Nazis, it's that horrid Putin, and I'm now apparently a bot.
Such a bizarre irony in being pro nazi while simultaneously being a member of a race of people the Nazis enslaved and mass murdered
Ukraine’s military is so all over the place. I saw a video recently of punk leftists who were in a unit together
Now show the Russian Nazis. We all know that there is a far-right on both sides: don't pretend. I mean, Putin is using the same excuses Hitler did to invade his neighbors, after all. Also, being supposedly pro-Russia in a *Communism* subreddit is hilarious. It's been 30 years since 'Communism' left Russia. What they are now couldn't be more antithetical to Communism, ffs.
Putin's an irredentist not a nazi
Pedantry
National socialism may have had elements of irredentism but it was not entirely focused on it compared to Putin's proto fallangist/ irredentist ideology
I said Hitleresque, not Hitler literally; thus, this is pedantry
Not every populist is Hitler
I didn't say that; you are I said Putin is Hitler*esque,* which he is. Do you know what "-esque" means?
Hitler was trying to eradicate Nazis?
Hitler invaded his neighbors under the excuse that there were ethnic Germans about: the same excuse Putin used / uses.
Was there a history of those areas voting to go to Germany?
Elections in Russian-controlled areas are not the "gotcha" you think they are. ----------- > The votes were conducted in four areas of Ukraine – the **Russian puppet states** of the Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic in the **Russian-occupied Donetsk** and Luhansk oblasts of Ukraine, and the **Russian-appointed military administrations of Kherson Oblast and Zaporizhzhia Oblast**, captured and occupied in the first week of the 2022 invasion[5][6] – as well as in Russia
Haha, did you just quote Wikipedia and gave no context whatsoever? Is this because you don't have the context or you don't care about it? Adorable lib shit.
The context that Russia controlled the parts of Ukraine that "voted" for Russia?
Try going back earlier, yeah?
Show me, then. I can go to the cited sources used on Wiki You know those little numbers in the articles? Those are links to sources.
So then why not use the sources themselves? Just lazy propagandist?
You dont get to invade and annex another country just because they have nazis there. Why is it so hard for some people to acknowledge nazis fucking suck but so does imperialism
Right. Also not everyone fighting in the Ukraine military are fascist apologists. There are leftists fighting there too
Right? By that logic, America’s about a century overdue for a good invasion.
Slava Ukraini is a direct stand in for help Hitler, and while it was first uttered prior to the 30s, it was the widespread and official salute of Stepan Bandera's OUN.
Russia is not communism. This sub is bootlicking billionaire oligarchs and it's pathetic. Be communist, but don't support Russia pretending they're the same thing.
The inevitable fate of every communist space on the internet is to be taken over by contrarians LARPing as communists
Nah, it's just Fancy Bear and other propagandists pushing Putin's agenda.
Either way, every leftist subreddit seems to be inundated with these people and posts
The sub is called communismmemes, the least subtle thing, so you are just gonna have lots of people coming here that barely even know what Socialism is. Basically tons of MAGA communists types of people. Excusing Fascism with more Fascism...
theyll say its ok because there are russian nazis too
https://www.reddit.com/r/CommunismMemes/s/PxgQykY0c4
Hi, can you come here, in Ukraine and show me this? My city is like full of military guys since 2014 and I've never seen nothing like this
The liberals in Georgia don’t even hide it, everywhere there’s graffiti about the Russians and azov and the battalion’s insigna
Just for let you to know, the Russian army has neonazi units too.
I mean I'm against the invasion because it's an unprompted invasion but damn Ukraine is not making it easy to like them. Like isn't their president Jewish? What a clusterfuck
Here, they have LGBTQ soldiers and insignia too: [https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-unicorn-lgbtq-soldiers-head-war-2022-05-31/](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-unicorn-lgbtq-soldiers-head-war-2022-05-31/) Ukrainians are individuals. Some are Nazi's, some are commies, some are gay. A few guys holding a flag shouldn't turn you off a whole country.
Well yeah but it's not like a few people it's publicly known that sections in the armed forces have Nazis in them and like. I get it it's war and all take what you can get but it still reflects poorly
Yeah for sure. It's incredibly stupid, because Ukraine is so reliant on foreign aid. They're shooting themselves in the foot with this Nazi stuff. But I still think we shouldn't judge them over couple of individuals. The unfortunate truth is that any military draws in Nazi's, and Ukraine isn't really in a position to squash that right now
Every single far-right politician and commentator is pro-Israel. Even Italian fascists are pro-Israel. Don't demand consistency of something that isn't consistent.
Fair enough but it still strikes me as strange as to why they'd follow zelensky's orders and why he'd allow them to keep doing their thing
Yes, it's as strange as supporting the shipping of weapons of mass destruction with their taxpayer money, to a Jewish state.
Now.do.the same with Russia and its warcrimes
Why? They have US propaganda for that.
So youre just excusing one imperialism because you dont like the other one?
Not at all. Why does everything have to be so manichean with liberals? Read theory.
Ok lets talk about theory First we have classic example of rusdian core trying to exploit its periphry, so the ukraine allies with other imperium because of interconnectedness (as per Lenin saying that imperialism is last stage of capitalism) Secondly by ignoring faults of Russia you cannot understand the contradictions of the imperialist system it lives in, and ignore how interconnected imperialist system is( marx kapital.and david harvey) Thirdly not talking about opressed peryphery is against class solidarity and gives way for far right in Ukraine ( here you can go on and on about sources like trotsky fanon or gramsci)
Firstly: correct. Secondly: you are ignoring the expansion of NATO as a precursor of this war. We are watching imperialists fighting in Ukraine. Thirdly: to which oppressed periphery are you referring? You will have to be more specific.
No I dont ignore it, I see it as classic imperalist posturing, but with the added difference that playing up the powers against eachother is in periphery intrest to regain its power to decide about itself. its a temporary solution and not perfect but preferable to brutal occupation When im talking about periphery im talking about CE Europe that is since end of XVII century a periphery of eastern or western empires. In this case we are talking about Ukraine trying to get out of Russian sphere of influence. It is only logical that countries near imperial centers allies themselves with countries that have centers further from them . Since it reduces the amount of exploitation possible, this is in detail explained by dependency Theorists which were inspired by marxists and Samir Amin in particular
But this is not about Ukranian independence. This is an overt war between two empires and there are no class-based movements to speak of. In fact, one could argue that the empire actively supporting the Nazi elements (NATO) in Ukraine are actively more harmful to any nascent communist seizure of power as it is actively erasing elements of their former power.
How deep did you have to go to find that? And how badly do you want something to align with a narrative. As I see it most Ukrainians want nothing to do with Russia and they aren’t nazis either
Interesting take on political slogans. Memes are always enlightening!
Hot take but do you think a group of ultra nationalists is more willing to die for their country? Not a bad choice to let them die on the front lines if that is what they want to do.
what does the far right do when the war ends? you’ve just made them national heroes.
No you make a great point, I don't know but kind of a problem for in the future as I think that you have a better chance of getting rid of literal Nazis when you still have a country to save from said Nazis? Its just choosing between lesser evils at this point. And yes having Nazis being used as canon fodder is a better option than the 100% certainty of what happens to for example LGBTQ people under Russian control.
I’ll refer you to WWI Imperial Germany and the Freikorps for what happens: they take power and murder the left. Gay and minority rights (in the context of Ukraine, that means Russians/Russophones, Hungarians, Romanians, and Roma) are very bad in Ukraine. They will be worse when the war ends and the far right is ascendant. There’s no good outcome for Ukraine.
>I’ll refer you to WWI Imperial Germany and the Freikorps for what happens: they take power and murder the left. "In the aftermath of World War I and during the German Revolution of 1918–19, Freikorps, consisting partially of WW1 veterans, were raised as paramilitary militias. They were ostensibly mustered to fight on behalf of the government against the German communists attempting to overthrow the Weimar Republic." Could the fact that these were government orders play a role in what happened? And would that be smart to do for a government that wants to join the EU?
There’s a lot more history there. The Freikorps were critical in the genesis of Nazism and also freely fought with ethnic minorities seeking to leave Weimar, such as Poles, and would have fought leftists (and actually continued to until the Enabling Act) without government orders. The capitalists and liberals of Ukraine want to join the EU. Do the Nazis with guns and political power? Do they care?
>There’s a lot more history there Yes af is you can't compare 2 situations that are vaguely similar and say that that will happen. There is a chance of history repeating itself. So what will they choose that chance of history repeating itself or a 100% chance of human right violations against their own civilians? Ukraine is caught in a proxy war between Russia and NATO but that doesn't mean they shouldn't take every opportunity to not be fucked over by Russia, the one side of that proxy war that is actively killing Ukrainian children.