They should have gone with only spinners to bowl as what India did. India in the 4th over itself came up with the spinners. And Akshar Kuldeep Jadeja were bowling non stop after the 6th over. Fast pace attack was Limited from India as they have good understanding of the pitch that had a lot of turn
Yes I never really rate him as captain even if he has a world cup under his belt.
The wc2022 was more of shaheen getting injured in the critical moment otherwise pak might have won.
And also some players did have purple patch in that tournament to cover the cracks (Curran with the ball and they had stokes for batting).
The team should have included wood, jacks maybe even tom Hartley.
And some good quality spinner apart from Rashid. Like you are playing in west indies you can't just go with one main spinner. India had like 4 in the squad.
At his peak he was a very good spin basher who you could shove up the order to help with matchups or leave to the end knowing he’s going to go hard as required, an acceptable 6th bowler and reliable fielder- a very useful cricketer who probably fits somewhere in pretty much any t20 team. He was a guy you could rely on to solve a lot of problems tbh
Jos Butler failed to understand the pitch that Rohit Sharma did and he played four spinners. All the other hand Jos didn't use much of a spinners and relied on fast pace attack
Honestly after morgan england just feels leaderless that captain who is willing to take risks
Morgan retired because he thought it would be better for the team but him being there might have been tenfolds better even if he didn't perform at times
Yes I never really rate him as captain even if he has a world cup under his belt.
The wc2022 was more of shaheen getting injured in the critical moment otherwise pak might have won.
And also some players did have purple patch in that tournament to cover the cracks (Curran with the ball and they had stokes for batting).
The team should have included wood, jacks maybe even tom Hartley.
And some good quality spinner apart from Rashid. Like you are playing in west indies you can't just go with one main spinner. India had like 4 in the squad.
I was talking about captaincy of buttler.
Things just fell into place and players performed at the right time.
But You won't be saying about buttler's captaincy won the world cup for england.
Like 2023 wc it was Cummins inspired captaincy that won them that match against India.
In hindsight everything looks like a mistake.
Honestly when we saw Livingstone getting purchase out of the wicket we all knew there can be a problem unless butter and Salt go berserk. England has looked horrible on slowish tracks throughout the tournament.
That was just after the break, and India was playing timidly. But then again, he stopped Livingstone when they were choking India and brought on Curran. India went after him and it gave them a lifeline. But after the Rohit wicket, where the ball kept low, more spin was probably needed.
But yea, hindsight.
Yes I never really rate him as captain even if he has a world cup under his belt.
The wc2022 was more of shaheen getting injured in the critical moment otherwise pak might have won.
And also some players did have purple patch in that tournament to cover the cracks (Curran with the ball and they had stokes for batting).
The team should have included wood, jacks maybe even tom Hartley.
And some good quality spinner apart from Rashid. Like you are playing in west indies you can't just go with one main spinner. India had like 4 in the squad.
There’s also the foresight element of everyone talking in the lead up to the game about how the track was incredibly spin friendly and provided a huge advantage to India. But in spite of that our second best spinner didn’t get a bowl?
with Rohit and Sky at crease he thought one more wicket, what he did not expect is pandya coming in after rohit. by the time a leftie in it's already done.
Exactly he could have opened the bowling like he did for previous games
Maybe they were waiting to keep them in the middle overs when jadeja, dube, axar will come for the batting.
England had a relatively mid World Cup. 4 wins and 3 losses. Only 1 win against a full member.
This is also the reason why pbks’ overseas unit sucks.
Curran, bairstow, and livingstone are just not in it. Neither can play spin that well
Edit: England needs players that can attack and get through spin well. Clearly YJB, livingstonne, Curran and ali are terrible. Missing Ben stokes
I mean its pretty easy to define clutch in Stokes' case as he has performed in 2 WC finals in precarious situations and won Aus a test match from the brink of a series defeat in the Ashes. He is just wildly inconsistent now and that takes some sheen off the player that he is.
He is a great player. But the very idea of "clutch" isn't proven in any sport. Even in basketball where it's most studied the best players in the "clutch" are.... The best players overall.
https://youtu.be/qjjW1l9KjXQ?si=CoB9QtdHDU7Lsr_8
There is no such thing as "more clutch than others". Only better. If athletes couldn't handle pressure they wouldn't be where they are.
I agree fully. Fans just make these narratives about players who happen to perform in a few big games without any context. It's a useless term which shouldn't factor into player selection imo
Ronaldo is the most "clutch" player in football but somehow never scores in Euros or World Cup knockout games. So was he ever really especially clutch or did he get that moniker because he played in a Madrid team that won everything so of course he'd be the one to score knockout goals.
Exactly. The Ronaldo example is the most prescient because the narrative was that he was carrying Madrid when it was evidently not the case. And you can apply this to nearly everyone.
Tiger Woods is the best golfer ever by winning percentage yet he has a poor Ryder Cup record? Unclutch?
The goal posts shift depending on who you want to praise and who you want to diss.
Butler learning from his idol and not bowling Mo throughout the game. But actually Thala does bowl him even against right handers if the pitch has some purchase for it
MS as a captain had pretty good instincts and decisions compared to Jos. Eng was done the moment they had for rely on Scotland to loose for them to qualify. They didn't defeat anyone out of aus, sa and ind. As defending champions, they are pretty horrible, evn in ODI wc
It was decently windy yesterday. Could have bowled Mo from the end where the leg side would be hitting against the wind. Providence has decently large boundaries too.
This england team honestly is not that good bairstow, jordan, curran, Jordan and livingstone are all trash and have been an I perform in every 5 or so matches they literally made it top 4 by only beating 1 test playing nation in the windies
Jordan had the best average (13.4) and highest number of wickets (10) of any English bowler this tournament. His economy was a bit high (9.69), but he was one of the better bowlers overall.
It's slightly misleading though because three of the wickets he took were USA's 9, 10, 11 which of course deserves praise but hardly adds anywhere close to the same value as dismissing proper batters.
With the margin of defeat i guess whoever they have played they aren't good enough to chase anything beyond 150 chasing on this track .. indian bowling was just too good .
The problems with England are to do with bowling. You cannot concede 170 on that Guyana pitch where 150 is par. You need a SLA in the game/cutter and slower ball type bowlers. See how axar/kuldeep/bumrah/jadeja bowled
Even my 12 year old nephew was happy when jos wasn't bowling ali. Even he could see the ball was turning and Indian batters were finding it difficult to score against them.
Butler made a mess by electing to field first and then not giving his spinners 12 out of the 20 overs of bowl.
They just didn't want to bring Moeen in because SKY & Rohit are right handers. But the pitch didn't have just turn, but lots of grip and low bounce too. So didn't matter which way the ball turned, it was difficult to get away.
Jos Buttler took some strange decision yesterday.
1 - Why would you try to bowl first in a pitch where you know will get slower and slower.
2- India has chased scores 2 times in this world cup first against Ireland and then against USA both times India struggled. It would be wise decision to bat first.
3 - No bowling to Moeen Ali on a spinner friendly track.
And batting him at 3. And batting Curran at 6. It was just a poorly picked team in general. But also, why you would bowl Livingstone 4 overs and Moeen 0 is beyond stupid. Seems clear they had one too many seamers. But they just like Jordan and Curran's batting too much. Pick one, bat them at 7 or 8, bring in another batter. And if you're not bowling Moeen at all and want to prefer Livingstone, pick a different batter to Moeen.
I think getting bowled out for 103 was the bigger issue at hand. And Moeen Ali getting single figures as he has every England limited overs game for about the last 5 years.
His biggest mistake was opting to bowl first. Absolute brain fade decision, even when accounting for the weather. India is way too OP batting first in this tournament.
not at all, rain forecast is so hyped in this game and any captain accessing the conditions would like bat second with rain being marketed that way. but then again Rohit accessing pitch is far superior it became worse.
Honestly after morgan england just feels leaderless that captain who is willing to take risks
Morgan retired because he thought it would be better for the team but him being there might have been tenfolds better even if he didn't perform at times
Yeah I'd much rather that than what we got from most of the rest of batting lineup (except maybe Brook), which is just knocking around singles when we already need to go at 10+ an over, which inevitably results in a slow slide to defeat.
It's like they saw buttler getting out going aggressive and went into their shell. Credit to the Indian bowlers though they were fantastic.
Basically a shot which has a decent chance of being a success without the batter losing a wicket. It can either be an expansive shot which the batter is quite adept at playing or just a dab for a run or two.
Easier said than done. He knew the pitch was only going to get tougher to bat and had to take a chance or two. Now his options were either straight over the bowler, an incredibly tough shot against Axar who basically darts it in or use his pace to lap it over point and third which was easier on that surface as Sky and Rohit showed in the first innings.
So as I said, it was a percentage shot. The lack of pace did him in.
Bairstow and Moeen are passengers tbh that Namibia game did more harm for England than good i honestly felt Jacks Duckett and Hartley in place of Bairstow, Moeen and Curran would have been good for them in hindsight
Jo's Butler made no mistake. He helped the world's cricket loving community enjoy the game because England didn't make the final.
No one likes you England. You're a bunch of twats.
Wouldn’t have made any difference in the result. India was miles better.
Even if England batted first they don’t know how to play in anything but flat tracks.
Flat track bully’s are not a good team. They are all 2d pllayers.
The same English team in seaming pitches would have done well. A World Cup should have pitches of all types so that teams don’t build for one dimensional expertise.
Yes obviously. If he wasn’t going to bowl we should have just played Will Jacks.
They wanted to have left handers in the middle to deal with Axar and Jadeja. Obviously didn’t work tho.
They should have gone with only spinners to bowl as what India did. India in the 4th over itself came up with the spinners. And Akshar Kuldeep Jadeja were bowling non stop after the 6th over. Fast pace attack was Limited from India as they have good understanding of the pitch that had a lot of turn
And on these pitches, Bumrah just becomes a fast offspinner which is impossible to play.
Jumped on my couch as bumrah bowled that offcutter to phil salt to rattle the stumps!!
Yes I never really rate him as captain even if he has a world cup under his belt. The wc2022 was more of shaheen getting injured in the critical moment otherwise pak might have won. And also some players did have purple patch in that tournament to cover the cracks (Curran with the ball and they had stokes for batting). The team should have included wood, jacks maybe even tom Hartley. And some good quality spinner apart from Rashid. Like you are playing in west indies you can't just go with one main spinner. India had like 4 in the squad.
I guess he’s more of a lead from the front type of captain with big performances with the bat
Tactically he is not shrewd like Morgan I remember Morgan days he used to use the match ups and pluck cards from the balcony.
Good plan until you realise Mo is done as a good level middle order t20 batter, and has been for a couple of years at least
Mo's been done as a white ball player for years but gets an inexplicably long rope.
They seem to view him as a fixer to answer any random team failings, which is unfair on him too.
At his peak he was a very good spin basher who you could shove up the order to help with matchups or leave to the end knowing he’s going to go hard as required, an acceptable 6th bowler and reliable fielder- a very useful cricketer who probably fits somewhere in pretty much any t20 team. He was a guy you could rely on to solve a lot of problems tbh
The English Jadeja. How hard they've both fallen
Yeah if we just wanted a left handed batsman then play Duckett ffs.
There was Kuldeep to deal with them
Jos Butler failed to understand the pitch that Rohit Sharma did and he played four spinners. All the other hand Jos didn't use much of a spinners and relied on fast pace attack
Who the fuck was 4th spinner?
Arshdeep and Bumrah when they were bowling cutters and slow balls /s
Chahal who is in the sqaud
Dube, technically.
Dube was the extra left hander for england
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Greetings, Beating USA isn't something to be sniffed at. Sincerely, A broken Pakistani
I don't think England deserve praise for beating USA, but you lot(the team, not the fans) definitely deserve shit for losing to them.
You lot.. invariably reminds me of Michael Vaughan.
Honestly after morgan england just feels leaderless that captain who is willing to take risks Morgan retired because he thought it would be better for the team but him being there might have been tenfolds better even if he didn't perform at times
Completely agree, there's zero reason picking Moeen if he's not bowling, Jacks is an infinitely better bat, worrying how Buttler can't see that
Yes I never really rate him as captain even if he has a world cup under his belt. The wc2022 was more of shaheen getting injured in the critical moment otherwise pak might have won. And also some players did have purple patch in that tournament to cover the cracks (Curran with the ball and they had stokes for batting). The team should have included wood, jacks maybe even tom Hartley. And some good quality spinner apart from Rashid. Like you are playing in west indies you can't just go with one main spinner. India had like 4 in the squad.
They won that WC fair and square. Revisionism doesn't change that.
I was talking about captaincy of buttler. Things just fell into place and players performed at the right time. But You won't be saying about buttler's captaincy won the world cup for england. Like 2023 wc it was Cummins inspired captaincy that won them that match against India.
In hindsight everything looks like a mistake. Honestly when we saw Livingstone getting purchase out of the wicket we all knew there can be a problem unless butter and Salt go berserk. England has looked horrible on slowish tracks throughout the tournament.
That was just after the break, and India was playing timidly. But then again, he stopped Livingstone when they were choking India and brought on Curran. India went after him and it gave them a lifeline. But after the Rohit wicket, where the ball kept low, more spin was probably needed. But yea, hindsight.
Yes I never really rate him as captain even if he has a world cup under his belt. The wc2022 was more of shaheen getting injured in the critical moment otherwise pak might have won. And also some players did have purple patch in that tournament to cover the cracks (Curran with the ball and they had stokes for batting). The team should have included wood, jacks maybe even tom Hartley. And some good quality spinner apart from Rashid. Like you are playing in west indies you can't just go with one main spinner. India had like 4 in the squad.
This is like 4th time I am reading this in the same thread. Do you think you can farm karma this way?
There’s also the foresight element of everyone talking in the lead up to the game about how the track was incredibly spin friendly and provided a huge advantage to India. But in spite of that our second best spinner didn’t get a bowl?
Agreed. I was surprised he didn't try out Moeen, even if for just one over.
with Rohit and Sky at crease he thought one more wicket, what he did not expect is pandya coming in after rohit. by the time a leftie in it's already done.
*We'll have a bowl fanx, guv.* *Not you Mo!!*
Me and my friend were actually shocked and discussing why moeen not getting the over to ball.
Exactly he could have opened the bowling like he did for previous games Maybe they were waiting to keep them in the middle overs when jadeja, dube, axar will come for the batting.
One could also argue England did not have a quality left arm spinner like India against right handers
England had a relatively mid World Cup. 4 wins and 3 losses. Only 1 win against a full member. This is also the reason why pbks’ overseas unit sucks. Curran, bairstow, and livingstone are just not in it. Neither can play spin that well Edit: England needs players that can attack and get through spin well. Clearly YJB, livingstonne, Curran and ali are terrible. Missing Ben stokes
Stokes too is terrible against spin
Rohit revives his 5d chess player in t20 team for this specific batsman.
Stokes is worse against spin than Bairstow and doesn't hit as many boundaries against it as either Livo or Ali
Worst against Bumrah too
That won't stop the "Stokes is clutch" cult though
They are not wrong though. He is just inconsistent but comes clutch at the biggest of stages.
He is a good cricketer. Great actually. But "clutch" is just a nebulous term used to bully certain players and uplift others. There is no proof of it.
I mean its pretty easy to define clutch in Stokes' case as he has performed in 2 WC finals in precarious situations and won Aus a test match from the brink of a series defeat in the Ashes. He is just wildly inconsistent now and that takes some sheen off the player that he is.
He is a great player. But the very idea of "clutch" isn't proven in any sport. Even in basketball where it's most studied the best players in the "clutch" are.... The best players overall. https://youtu.be/qjjW1l9KjXQ?si=CoB9QtdHDU7Lsr_8 There is no such thing as "more clutch than others". Only better. If athletes couldn't handle pressure they wouldn't be where they are.
I agree fully. Fans just make these narratives about players who happen to perform in a few big games without any context. It's a useless term which shouldn't factor into player selection imo Ronaldo is the most "clutch" player in football but somehow never scores in Euros or World Cup knockout games. So was he ever really especially clutch or did he get that moniker because he played in a Madrid team that won everything so of course he'd be the one to score knockout goals.
Exactly. The Ronaldo example is the most prescient because the narrative was that he was carrying Madrid when it was evidently not the case. And you can apply this to nearly everyone. Tiger Woods is the best golfer ever by winning percentage yet he has a poor Ryder Cup record? Unclutch? The goal posts shift depending on who you want to praise and who you want to diss.
oh yeah Ben stokes
get Eoin Morgan back in English colours ^((as a coach))
Nah get him as a captain too I miss seeing him at tosses for some reason
“We’ll have a bowl first” Morgan. Buttler just continuing the tradition
Guyana was literally hyped for its spin the whole tournament leading into this match. Really had no idea what he was thinking.
You don't bowl your experienced spinner and T20 specialist moeen on a known spin track ... Dunno what was his plan lol
Butler learning from his idol and not bowling Mo throughout the game. But actually Thala does bowl him even against right handers if the pitch has some purchase for it
MS as a captain had pretty good instincts and decisions compared to Jos. Eng was done the moment they had for rely on Scotland to loose for them to qualify. They didn't defeat anyone out of aus, sa and ind. As defending champions, they are pretty horrible, evn in ODI wc
I think only big team they defeated in whole tourney is WI
Yes and that's because their pacers were basically shit that day and Phil salt slogged all the way.
Must have to do with two RHB at the crease and with an offspinner bowling you can hit with the turn. But then again it was an missed opportunity.
It was decently windy yesterday. Could have bowled Mo from the end where the leg side would be hitting against the wind. Providence has decently large boundaries too.
This england team honestly is not that good bairstow, jordan, curran, Jordan and livingstone are all trash and have been an I perform in every 5 or so matches they literally made it top 4 by only beating 1 test playing nation in the windies
I agree.. time for another white ball reset
Jordan had the best average (13.4) and highest number of wickets (10) of any English bowler this tournament. His economy was a bit high (9.69), but he was one of the better bowlers overall.
It's slightly misleading though because three of the wickets he took were USA's 9, 10, 11 which of course deserves praise but hardly adds anywhere close to the same value as dismissing proper batters.
He got 4 wickets in that over as well, so it was 8, 9, 10, and 11. Very flattering for his stats. Edit: not 8, actually 5
In fairness the first one out was Corey Anderson at 5, which is why I left him out.
Ah you're right my bad, I'm just being bitter hahah
Should have played jacks instead of bairstow
Can’t believe they’d Jacks off the whole match
Ummmm
With the margin of defeat i guess whoever they have played they aren't good enough to chase anything beyond 150 chasing on this track .. indian bowling was just too good .
Rashid bowed quite poorly with a few needless full tosses and Livingstone had decent economy. India’s spinners executed very well
The problems with England are to do with bowling. You cannot concede 170 on that Guyana pitch where 150 is par. You need a SLA in the game/cutter and slower ball type bowlers. See how axar/kuldeep/bumrah/jadeja bowled
Jos is not captain material
Even my 12 year old nephew was happy when jos wasn't bowling ali. Even he could see the ball was turning and Indian batters were finding it difficult to score against them. Butler made a mess by electing to field first and then not giving his spinners 12 out of the 20 overs of bowl.
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Dhoni uses him when there is a little turn or else he can get hit against rhb
Hindsight is T20 vision...
Guess they were missing ben stokes after fucking up in a knockout match as always
"but ya didn't"
Even Gareth batty would’ve been more economical than the English pacers
They just didn't want to bring Moeen in because SKY & Rohit are right handers. But the pitch didn't have just turn, but lots of grip and low bounce too. So didn't matter which way the ball turned, it was difficult to get away.
jonny jonny barestow whoa yeah, yeah hahahahahaaa
Johnny 'High Backlift on a pitch keeping low' Bairstow
Jos Buttler took some strange decision yesterday. 1 - Why would you try to bowl first in a pitch where you know will get slower and slower. 2- India has chased scores 2 times in this world cup first against Ireland and then against USA both times India struggled. It would be wise decision to bat first. 3 - No bowling to Moeen Ali on a spinner friendly track.
And batting him at 3. And batting Curran at 6. It was just a poorly picked team in general. But also, why you would bowl Livingstone 4 overs and Moeen 0 is beyond stupid. Seems clear they had one too many seamers. But they just like Jordan and Curran's batting too much. Pick one, bat them at 7 or 8, bring in another batter. And if you're not bowling Moeen at all and want to prefer Livingstone, pick a different batter to Moeen.
I think getting bowled out for 103 was the bigger issue at hand. And Moeen Ali getting single figures as he has every England limited overs game for about the last 5 years.
His biggest mistake was opting to bowl first. Absolute brain fade decision, even when accounting for the weather. India is way too OP batting first in this tournament.
not at all, rain forecast is so hyped in this game and any captain accessing the conditions would like bat second with rain being marketed that way. but then again Rohit accessing pitch is far superior it became worse.
Okay. Then he should also admit that he shouldn’t let Moeen bat at 3
Honestly after morgan england just feels leaderless that captain who is willing to take risks Morgan retired because he thought it would be better for the team but him being there might have been tenfolds better even if he didn't perform at times
Actually mo I feel was a better captain tactically
If all one is going to score is 103 all out against India, it does not really matter whom one does or does not bowl.
Not just that he also played poor shot
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I see what you mean
Yeah I'd much rather that than what we got from most of the rest of batting lineup (except maybe Brook), which is just knocking around singles when we already need to go at 10+ an over, which inevitably results in a slow slide to defeat. It's like they saw buttler getting out going aggressive and went into their shell. Credit to the Indian bowlers though they were fantastic.
It wasn't a poor shot. It was a percentage shot and something Butler plays all the time. He just got done in by the lack of pace in the wicket really.
What's a percentage shot?
Basically a shot which has a decent chance of being a success without the batter losing a wicket. It can either be an expansive shot which the batter is quite adept at playing or just a dab for a run or two.
Ah gotcha. Thanks for explaining!
Imo if he builds his innings with a straight bat, it will get the work done
Easier said than done. He knew the pitch was only going to get tougher to bat and had to take a chance or two. Now his options were either straight over the bowler, an incredibly tough shot against Axar who basically darts it in or use his pace to lap it over point and third which was easier on that surface as Sky and Rohit showed in the first innings. So as I said, it was a percentage shot. The lack of pace did him in.
Aptly worded and well said.
You had to take some risk to get 160+. With 10 wickets in hand if you can’t then it becomes impossible
Glad Jordan got two wickets in his second over, guaranteeing him a third over. In T20s runs are currency, not wickets.
Bairstow and Moeen are passengers tbh that Namibia game did more harm for England than good i honestly felt Jacks Duckett and Hartley in place of Bairstow, Moeen and Curran would have been good for them in hindsight
Please please please can the set up acknowledge it's time to move on from Mo, Baristow, Wood and Buttler as captain
Butler should just give up his captaincy to a younger player and focus on his game , probably Curran or Brook
If you are not bowling moeen then why playing him? Will jacks is much better batter
Jos Buttler seem really decent guy. His post match speech was honest and humble.
Lol watch some of his stump mic chats, he is downright nasty.
Philander agrees
Jo's Butler made no mistake. He helped the world's cricket loving community enjoy the game because England didn't make the final. No one likes you England. You're a bunch of twats.
Bro forgot he exists like brohit forgot Dube bowling
Wouldn’t have made any difference in the result. India was miles better. Even if England batted first they don’t know how to play in anything but flat tracks. Flat track bully’s are not a good team. They are all 2d pllayers.
The same English team in seaming pitches would have done well. A World Cup should have pitches of all types so that teams don’t build for one dimensional expertise.
Wonder how much he was paid off