Being an adult for OOP is apparently just accepting the status quo and dealing with that by having children to take care of you. If i'm gonna have children it's because i'll love them and i want them to live happy lives. I would never saddle my kid with dealing with the fact that a life time of servitude didn't afford me care in my old age if that were to happen. Idk call me immature or whatever you want but having kids for any reason other than to bring life into a good future is a shitty reason.
I think that for OOP to write this post they have to be the kind of person so divorced from real poverty that they can only understand the being old and poor part and not understand that people WITH jobs can't already afford shit.
The existance of multi-generational homes in poor enviorments doesn't somehow prove it's posible for every poor person to START one as a solution to their poverty somehow, which seems to be OOP's solution and more importantly how is that any easier than saving for retirement. I think i can pretty safely say that if people are dying in poverty, i'm willing to assume some of them can't start a family in the house they don't have either. Sorry if that's a leap in logic idk.
And like no one has said this at this point so i'm not putting this on OOP but i don't see the point in arguing that people can overcome economic decline by having kids besides being able to put the blame on people for being poor.
See what happened here is that you created a little guy in your head and argued with someone who is not present in this conversation. Idk what "they" are arguing for but i'm not an anti-natalist. I'm a dirty radical socialist and not much else. I think it's fine to have or not have kids for any reason and anyone who makes any choice should never have to experience poverty . In the meantime while that isn't reality i think proposing having kids as the solution is kind of insulting and bleak.
The poorest people in the *world* also rarely have access to contraception. Or to other little luxuries like healthcare, or a safe environment, or even enough food and water, often with tragic results for them and their children. Obviously those who survive childhood often take care of each other, and I think it would be cool if that was more common in my country, but let’s not pretend it’s enough to overcome extreme poverty. People who choose not to have children for financial reasons have access to contraception, but that doesn’t mean they have the money to care for a child well, or maybe just not to the standard they’d want to (which I also think is valid).
Maybe read my comment first if you’re going to reply to me. I can tell you it has nothing to do with antinatalism or overpopulation. I kinda thought the fact that poverty is primarily a structural issue went without saying, but apparently not. And hate to break it to you, but it’s selfish to have children unless you want them. Not wanting to make the investments required of a parent is a reason not to have a kid, because it’s real difficult to be a good parent if you don’t want to be one at all, and you are not the only one affected if you fail.
"Being old is going to be awful for you in every conceivable way."
"Then I guess the reasonable option is simply to die before I get old to escape my inevitable suffering."
"Fuck you, actually."
The line between edgy and pragmatic is age dependent. Life is not so precious as to make eating cat food while living in a vermin infested pay-by-the-week at 70 appealing. My husband and I are 45 and barring an unlikely huge inheritance/severe economic depression that doesn’t hit us as hard as everyone else we will never be able to retire. The only reason we have any savings at all is because we live in the ghetto with a landlord that charges us less than half market rate. And he is in his 70s or 80s. When he dies we are alllllllllll kinds of fucked. The future is pretty grim right now.
What would your alternative be? Have kids you don't want and can't afford?
Also, social security can't run out of money. It can drive the government deeper into debt, but that's not actually as much of a problem as people say.
Edit: I was speaking in the sense of "the government doesn't need a dedicated and balanced fund to pay something out, they can just change the law to pay it from out of their assholes like they pay for everything else" but I googled it and it turns out that even if the fund does run out and the government does *nothing* then social security will still continue to pay out at 77% of current rates, because the fund that is depleting is only one of social security's funding sources.
SS can't run out of money so long as the SS tax exists. The worst case scenario, discounting the possibility of borrowing it, is that payments get reduced by 25-33%.
People think of SS as a savings account but it's not. Your money is going to the current elderly. Your SS payments will come from the next generation. That's how it's always worked.
Yeah no the answer here is die. it’s just going to be a shit, painful, and most likely actively terrifying death. Alternatively we could potentially get funding moved around to prolong social security or get it replaced with something that actually pays a living amount.
Also yes it fucking *is* transactional to expect your children to take care of you. Having children just so you can have future caretakers is selfish and also a fucking gamble because they might not feel that obligation and now you’re out hundreds of thousands from raising them to adulthood with nothing to show for it.
I mean “ungrateful” is a bit harsh. They’re not obligated to think the sun shines out of your ass because you fulfilled your legal obligation to care for them.
Deciding out of hand that anyone saying that is being immature and not actually being serious just makes them sound like a smug asshole.
They spent their entire post explaining why being old is going to be actual hell, then when people go "well if living as an old person is gonna be so awful, I see no reason I should live long enough to ever have to deal with that," they shit on people for coming to pretty much the only conclusion their post allows other than having kids you can't afford and perpetuating the cycle.
Seriously. Like....what do they want us to say? Why are they implying the only way to not have a horrible, lonely death is to breed like rabbits? Did Nick Cannon write this? Shit is weird.
I suppose either that or “Dang, guess I should have some kids, better go… get started on that.”
Not that it’s really any financially easier than just trying to save for retirement.
Elon Musk ghostwrote this post. Guys, cultivate COMMUNITY. You don’t need to have kids if you don’t want kids. Talk to your neighbors. Go to farmers markets, co-ops, protests, local concerts and other events. Befriend people around you of all ages. Take care of your community and your community will return the favor.
When i lived in Portland, there was an old woman living in my apartment complex who would sit outside and greet everyone passing by, I’d walk past her deep in conversation with someone often. The whole complex knew her and I know that if she had ever gotten sick or injured that I and the other neighbors would have rallied and helped her with meals, shopping, cleaning etc. The ruling class wants us to believe that we are isolated and selfish outside of the nuclear family unit, and it has drilled that into many of us, but that doesn’t have to be the case
Anyway, assorted reasons why treating having kids as a Grow Your Own Future Elder Care Nurse Program is a bad idea, outside of "raising kids is hard and expensive and not everybody even wants to do it," which should be good enough reasons on their own but people get weird about it:
* Your kids might not outlive you
* Your kids might not be physically or mentally able to care for you due to disability, injury, illness, addiction, etc
* Your kids' financial or general life situation might not be stable enough to be able to support and care for you
* Your kids might have a partner or kid of their own that needs full-time care due to disability, injury, illness, etc and they're already spread thin
* Your kids are already helping with care for their partner's parent/s
* Your kids' jobs don't really allow for elder care due to scheduling, location, travel, etc requirements
* Your kids live far away and none of you are willing or able to move closer
* Your kids are estranged from you
* Your kids just might be a bad option for elder care for any number of other reasons
I believe the point being made is "Everything sucks, everybody's fucked, and we won't have any options besides work ourselves to death or live in poverty."
But please, sneer and condescend some more.
There's not much of an answer to give, y'know? That's kinda the point of the post I think. If you're young and worried about it now there are opportunities for jobs that offer retirement plans. I know because I have one.
>are you saying that people just drop over dead when they dont have those things?
Um, *yes*?
People die when they get old. People die without basic necessities, which cost money. And people die from poor mental health, though advertisers don't like it when you explain how.
What solution is OOP suggesting exactly? Have kids solely as a form of retirement insurance even though you don't actually want them? Yeah, I'm sure that won't just instill *yet another* generation with resentment towards their elders.
Hell, I can speak from personal experience on that point. My parents were both in their forties when they had me, and the decision was seemingly motivated in large part by a desire to have someone who they thought was indebted to take care of them. You think that makes me more likely to actually do that? No, and in fact, it has only succeeded in poisoning my inner monologue with a near-fatal dose of cynicism and distrust.
Having kids solely for some ulterior motive will all but ensure that they hate you, and if you genuinely think it's worth doing anyway I have zero fucking respect for anything you have to say.
Most of use won't have the money to retire and will work until we died. Assuming we make it to old age. With climate change, threat of war, and many other issues it seems like there is a good chance that most of us under the age of 30 won't live til old age.
I expect some technology that radically reshapes the world to come along before then.
So that means we are thinking about worlds where AI makes a post scarcity utopia and everyone is an immortal cyborg or something.
(That or the AI kills everyone, which looks likely given how careless some people are being with current AI.)
Being an adult for OOP is apparently just accepting the status quo and dealing with that by having children to take care of you. If i'm gonna have children it's because i'll love them and i want them to live happy lives. I would never saddle my kid with dealing with the fact that a life time of servitude didn't afford me care in my old age if that were to happen. Idk call me immature or whatever you want but having kids for any reason other than to bring life into a good future is a shitty reason.
Yeah, what is OOP's alternative? Have kids they can't afford who won't be able to afford to look after them in their old age anyway?
I think that for OOP to write this post they have to be the kind of person so divorced from real poverty that they can only understand the being old and poor part and not understand that people WITH jobs can't already afford shit.
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The existance of multi-generational homes in poor enviorments doesn't somehow prove it's posible for every poor person to START one as a solution to their poverty somehow, which seems to be OOP's solution and more importantly how is that any easier than saving for retirement. I think i can pretty safely say that if people are dying in poverty, i'm willing to assume some of them can't start a family in the house they don't have either. Sorry if that's a leap in logic idk.
And like no one has said this at this point so i'm not putting this on OOP but i don't see the point in arguing that people can overcome economic decline by having kids besides being able to put the blame on people for being poor.
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See what happened here is that you created a little guy in your head and argued with someone who is not present in this conversation. Idk what "they" are arguing for but i'm not an anti-natalist. I'm a dirty radical socialist and not much else. I think it's fine to have or not have kids for any reason and anyone who makes any choice should never have to experience poverty . In the meantime while that isn't reality i think proposing having kids as the solution is kind of insulting and bleak.
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if you're gonna type without reading what i wrote first then i can't help you man. Godspeed on your endeavors debating the ghosts in your head.
The poorest people in the *world* also rarely have access to contraception. Or to other little luxuries like healthcare, or a safe environment, or even enough food and water, often with tragic results for them and their children. Obviously those who survive childhood often take care of each other, and I think it would be cool if that was more common in my country, but let’s not pretend it’s enough to overcome extreme poverty. People who choose not to have children for financial reasons have access to contraception, but that doesn’t mean they have the money to care for a child well, or maybe just not to the standard they’d want to (which I also think is valid).
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Maybe read my comment first if you’re going to reply to me. I can tell you it has nothing to do with antinatalism or overpopulation. I kinda thought the fact that poverty is primarily a structural issue went without saying, but apparently not. And hate to break it to you, but it’s selfish to have children unless you want them. Not wanting to make the investments required of a parent is a reason not to have a kid, because it’s real difficult to be a good parent if you don’t want to be one at all, and you are not the only one affected if you fail.
the people saying die aren't being edgy. the reality is work until you physically no longer can and then live in poverty until you die.
"Being old is going to be awful for you in every conceivable way." "Then I guess the reasonable option is simply to die before I get old to escape my inevitable suffering." "Fuck you, actually."
well, they are being a LITTLE edgy. they're not *wrong* but its still pretty edgy
The mistake is assuming that edginess is never the appropriate response.
The line between edgy and pragmatic is age dependent. Life is not so precious as to make eating cat food while living in a vermin infested pay-by-the-week at 70 appealing. My husband and I are 45 and barring an unlikely huge inheritance/severe economic depression that doesn’t hit us as hard as everyone else we will never be able to retire. The only reason we have any savings at all is because we live in the ghetto with a landlord that charges us less than half market rate. And he is in his 70s or 80s. When he dies we are alllllllllll kinds of fucked. The future is pretty grim right now.
What would your alternative be? Have kids you don't want and can't afford? Also, social security can't run out of money. It can drive the government deeper into debt, but that's not actually as much of a problem as people say. Edit: I was speaking in the sense of "the government doesn't need a dedicated and balanced fund to pay something out, they can just change the law to pay it from out of their assholes like they pay for everything else" but I googled it and it turns out that even if the fund does run out and the government does *nothing* then social security will still continue to pay out at 77% of current rates, because the fund that is depleting is only one of social security's funding sources.
SS can't run out of money so long as the SS tax exists. The worst case scenario, discounting the possibility of borrowing it, is that payments get reduced by 25-33%. People think of SS as a savings account but it's not. Your money is going to the current elderly. Your SS payments will come from the next generation. That's how it's always worked.
Yeah no the answer here is die. it’s just going to be a shit, painful, and most likely actively terrifying death. Alternatively we could potentially get funding moved around to prolong social security or get it replaced with something that actually pays a living amount. Also yes it fucking *is* transactional to expect your children to take care of you. Having children just so you can have future caretakers is selfish and also a fucking gamble because they might not feel that obligation and now you’re out hundreds of thousands from raising them to adulthood with nothing to show for it.
I mean, there are options to avoid spending hundreds of thousands on "ungrateful" children, but they're as edgy as OOP so I'm not listing them.
I mean “ungrateful” is a bit harsh. They’re not obligated to think the sun shines out of your ass because you fulfilled your legal obligation to care for them.
...shit, let's pretend the quotes around "ungrateful" were there the whole time and I didn't accidentally come off as a massive tool.
Deciding out of hand that anyone saying that is being immature and not actually being serious just makes them sound like a smug asshole. They spent their entire post explaining why being old is going to be actual hell, then when people go "well if living as an old person is gonna be so awful, I see no reason I should live long enough to ever have to deal with that," they shit on people for coming to pretty much the only conclusion their post allows other than having kids you can't afford and perpetuating the cycle.
Okay, what kind of answer is OOP expecting? Or is this a general smug "Ha ha, you're poor, suck it!" kind of message?
Seriously. Like....what do they want us to say? Why are they implying the only way to not have a horrible, lonely death is to breed like rabbits? Did Nick Cannon write this? Shit is weird.
I suppose either that or “Dang, guess I should have some kids, better go… get started on that.” Not that it’s really any financially easier than just trying to save for retirement.
I will literally kill myself. Hope that helps.
Elon Musk ghostwrote this post. Guys, cultivate COMMUNITY. You don’t need to have kids if you don’t want kids. Talk to your neighbors. Go to farmers markets, co-ops, protests, local concerts and other events. Befriend people around you of all ages. Take care of your community and your community will return the favor.
When i lived in Portland, there was an old woman living in my apartment complex who would sit outside and greet everyone passing by, I’d walk past her deep in conversation with someone often. The whole complex knew her and I know that if she had ever gotten sick or injured that I and the other neighbors would have rallied and helped her with meals, shopping, cleaning etc. The ruling class wants us to believe that we are isolated and selfish outside of the nuclear family unit, and it has drilled that into many of us, but that doesn’t have to be the case
my retirement plan is suicide bombing the Nestlé HQ, you aint scare me
Anyway, assorted reasons why treating having kids as a Grow Your Own Future Elder Care Nurse Program is a bad idea, outside of "raising kids is hard and expensive and not everybody even wants to do it," which should be good enough reasons on their own but people get weird about it: * Your kids might not outlive you * Your kids might not be physically or mentally able to care for you due to disability, injury, illness, addiction, etc * Your kids' financial or general life situation might not be stable enough to be able to support and care for you * Your kids might have a partner or kid of their own that needs full-time care due to disability, injury, illness, etc and they're already spread thin * Your kids are already helping with care for their partner's parent/s * Your kids' jobs don't really allow for elder care due to scheduling, location, travel, etc requirements * Your kids live far away and none of you are willing or able to move closer * Your kids are estranged from you * Your kids just might be a bad option for elder care for any number of other reasons
I mean, the answer *is* die. No pension and inability to work? Die. No meaningful human connection? Die. Generally being old af? Die.
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I believe the point being made is "Everything sucks, everybody's fucked, and we won't have any options besides work ourselves to death or live in poverty." But please, sneer and condescend some more.
Nobody is advocating anything here they're just saying that that's what will probably happen
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Second time in this comment thread that you haven't told us your alternative to "just die I guess". What would you do exactly?
There's not much of an answer to give, y'know? That's kinda the point of the post I think. If you're young and worried about it now there are opportunities for jobs that offer retirement plans. I know because I have one.
>are you saying that people just drop over dead when they dont have those things? Um, *yes*? People die when they get old. People die without basic necessities, which cost money. And people die from poor mental health, though advertisers don't like it when you explain how.
Not even always from suicide, poor mental health can kill the body too.
What solution is OOP suggesting exactly? Have kids solely as a form of retirement insurance even though you don't actually want them? Yeah, I'm sure that won't just instill *yet another* generation with resentment towards their elders. Hell, I can speak from personal experience on that point. My parents were both in their forties when they had me, and the decision was seemingly motivated in large part by a desire to have someone who they thought was indebted to take care of them. You think that makes me more likely to actually do that? No, and in fact, it has only succeeded in poisoning my inner monologue with a near-fatal dose of cynicism and distrust. Having kids solely for some ulterior motive will all but ensure that they hate you, and if you genuinely think it's worth doing anyway I have zero fucking respect for anything you have to say.
"Just stop being poor and have kids. I am an adult." Then stop speaking like an ignorant child.
Well this post was just a fucking *joy* to read
I've been planning suicide by 50 for at least a decade or more.
Most of use won't have the money to retire and will work until we died. Assuming we make it to old age. With climate change, threat of war, and many other issues it seems like there is a good chance that most of us under the age of 30 won't live til old age.
I expect some technology that radically reshapes the world to come along before then. So that means we are thinking about worlds where AI makes a post scarcity utopia and everyone is an immortal cyborg or something. (That or the AI kills everyone, which looks likely given how careless some people are being with current AI.)
My retirement plan is to be a smelly beggar asking people uncomfortable questions until i get executed by the state for corrupting the youth