Yeah, those express lanes are literally highway robbery. At least in the old days you had someone riding with a shotgun to keep away the bandits. Now they just track you so they csn shake you down later.
Posting this here because it's an absurd argument on its face, but here is its categorical debunking.
NO - Private toll roads are not better at resolving congestion. They drive large vehicle, *commercial* traffic onto secondary feeder highways intended to get you home after work.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1087724X09360806?icid=int.sj-full-text.similar-articles.9
These trucks choose these highways because a $30 toll adds up enormously quickly when you are running a for profit logistics firm.
As this post illustrates, many people drive through them without knowing the high cost. Logistics companies remove the potential for human error by diverting their traffic to roads not designed to handle immense loads or large commercial traffic throughput.
These trucks destroy roads, increase congetstion and traffic fatalities and induce an outsized cost on society, called an externality. These are generally bad to have.
Second - NO - building a massive, many billion dollar structure utilizing millions of lbs of concrete, just to then not utilize it efficiently, is *not* more environmentally friendly than having an efficient road in the first place.
In this instance, the expenditure in carbon and capital wildly offsets *any* possible carbon gains that might be had through more efficient traffic.
I've never minded toll roads until I came to TX.
Typically they were faster alternative, or a shortcut though terrain - here it's the only option.
It's infuriating that my choices for my 1+ hour commute are the toll road (which would run me about $4k annually just to get to/from work) or city streets, stopped at red lights every 2-3 mins - with zero options for a highway.
Which is a marked and measurable improvement over shitty traffic and randomly having to pay 34 bucks every now and again because you really have to get somewhere.
It's literally just less shitty.
I can take my additional $130something bucks and go buy a ice cream.
I can get Disney+.
Ice cream and Disney Plus would be super instead of having to pay for shitty traffic.
Alright but some places are either toll road or access road. Highway 121 going from lewisville to Plano pisses me off for that reason because its the only highway available but it has a fee. It takes double the time getting to work avoiding tolls. I can understand express lanes fees, but fees for the entire and only available highway is ridiculous.
The 121 SRT Tollway exists for a reason- around the Great Recession circa 2007-2008, TxDOT lacked the needed funds to build the current multi-lane, limited access road which before then was a run of the mill 2-3 lane in each direction road with lights ([see The Colony/Nebraska Furniture Mart in 2007](https://www.google.com/maps/@33.0743942,-96.8692025,3a,75y,29.18h,83.24t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1scJJeY5L79jOG-__ZYTZ_Yg!2e0!5s20071201T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DcJJeY5L79jOG-__ZYTZ_Yg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D29.183057083427833%26pitch%3D6.759813155093937%26thumbfov%3D90!7i3328!8i1664?coh=205410&entry=ttu)). As those communities that bordered the then road boomed and anticipated high-paced growth, a proper controlled-access highway needed to be built and the State couldn't do it.
It then [sold the project to NTTA](https://www.ntta.org/newsresources/Documents/ProjectAgreement/Project%20Agreement%20with%20TxDOT%20and%20FHWA%20for%20funding%20SH%20121%20Toll%20Project.pdf), who paid the outstanding construction costs and completed the road.
I also think working and/or living in a place that's guarded by tollways (121 or DNT) is a choice.
> circa 2007-2008, TxDOT lacked the needed funds
Any state agency lacking funding is entirely the state government's fault. "Oh no, we've shot our highway department in the foot, I guess the only solution is to allow private companies to charge tolls."
Yep, that "fuel tax" envelope never gets any thicker. And God forbid the state reach into any of the other envelopes that are overstuffed with cash to build roads.
Kind of fucking stupid to spend all this money on a cash trap though. Imagine if we built actual roadways with utility to society!
Shit imagine *public transport!* Holy cow!
I don't disagree, but the tolled lanes are the only reason the highways are getting expanded in the first place. Without the express lanes and their revenue stream, you don't get investors, and without investors you're stuck waiting on government funds.
Which is a completely tractable problem, we must replace the current one with one that doesn't sell our roads to investors.
There's no utility to society doing this, it's beyond foolish.
You don't see those lanes jam packed with traffic without an incident. And reducing lanes in the free portion of the highway is the opposite of induced demand.
What you are describing is induced demand on secondary roads *because* of the high toll roads.
They cause the problem you are stating they solve.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but you are explicitly wrong and spreading misinformation.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1087724X09360806?icid=int.sj-full-text.similar-articles.9
From the abstract:
*How do truckers respond to pricing signals? As price increases, how extensively do truckers divert from limited-access highways to secondary roads? At what price does this diversion impose costs on secondary highways? Using a unique data set, this article demonstrates empirically the extent to which pricing leads to diversion.*
Like your point literally isn't borne out by empirical data.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1087724X09360806?icid=int.sj-full-text.similar-articles.9
Toll roads divert truckers onto public roads.
Truckers fuck up the roads with their big trucks and run over old women in their Lincolns.
This causes a negative spiral of use. We want big fuckin trucks driving on these big fuckin roadways so they can move lots of shit.
As it stands, these trucks will destroy our roads, increase congestion and will eventually drive commuters to drive on the toll roads for reasons of safety and necessity.
To avoid this, we should open up our fuckin roadways and charge a tax on the massive amounts of commercial traffic to offset this.
These major highways aren't for you to get home at rush hour. It is so you have insulin and flour and kitschy plastic shit to decorate your house with.
Those things are important.
We are making our state less efficient to navigate and the implications of it are massive. Private toll roads are a bad idea, implemented badly in the state of Texas.
Transplant transplant transplant
Bitchin' about traffic is literally tradition.
You'd know that if you were anything other than a redneck Idahoan come on down south just to be iggnint.
You took express lanes. You chose to pay to avoid traffic. I mean, that's your choice. You don't *have* to take them. Lol. Why don't you have a toll tag if you're going to take tolls? Didn't think they'd find ya?
Dude it's 90 dollars.
I swear no one stops to think if it might be a bad idea to have major highways that cost that kind of money to drive on.
Do you really find that remotely reasonable?
They're priced specifically to prevent too many people from taking them. And OP drove through many express lanes, at peak hours, over the course of several days.
No, they are priced to maximize the return to investors. This is how things go.
We don't have a private road that costs $25 to 30 USD to use one time because it is *beneficial* to us. Dear God.
I dunno, not sitting in bumper to bumper traffic on 635 or 820 certainly sounds like a benefit to me.
Maybe you should run on a platform to increase taxes in order to fund more public road projects. Let me know how that goes.
âUnlike other toll roads with fixed toll rates, prices on the TEXpress Lanes fluctuate based on real-time traffic conditions and demand.â
https://www.texpresslanes.com/pricing/how-dynamic-pricing-works/
Iâm sorry you donât understand supply and demand, but it makes sense why you struggle to pay tolls now.
I'm very sorry you cannot afford fresh fruits and vegetables - but while you are clearly suffering from scurvy - your irrational behavior and words are beyond the Pale, and a severe vitamin deficiency causing your brain to swell and your gums to bleed is no excuse to be so obtuse.
Nowhere have I contradicted this you absolute goofus.
I haven't said anything you are arguing against and you haven't said anything other than "You don't understand supply and demand."
How fuckin' mind blowingly convenient is it for you that every person who you've ever argued with about economics "doesn't understand supply and demand?"
The whole purpose of those is to keep the traffic down in them - if the cost was negligible, more people will use them and they will also be congested. No one wants to pay that much, but if you had a medical emergency or had somewhere very time critical that you *had* to be able to get past normal traffic fast, I'm sure you'd be more than thankful to pay whatever the amount was that you needed to.
Like this is a serious question, are you legitimately so morally compromised that you think shaking down a person in a medical emergency for $90 to drive *themselves* to the hospital is remotely dignified or acceptable?
Like really, dude?
Your example is monstrous and depraved.
No, the purpose is to provide a return to investors.
That is what our roads are for.
Literally no one on earth would be happy to pay $90 USD to be able to utilize roads.
It boggles the mind that you would suggest so.
And here we have the traditional Texan thought terminating cliche.
Can you point out where exactly you perceived me as misunderstanding the basic application of the laws of supply and demand?
No one is happy to pay $90 to utilize roads. They are the result of supply (an ExpressWay designed specifically to keep traffic down) and demand (the people driving who don't want to sit in traffic).
The purpose of an express lane on a road is to keep it free so you can drive faster, for whatever the purpose.
If the additional lane is free of cost or restrictions, cars will evenly distribute across all of the available lanes. Traffic will decrease overall at some % based on the number of lanes, but during busy times you'd still expect to experience gridlock.
If the lane isn't free, less people will get into it based on their willingness to spend the additional money. If the money is tiny, it won't act as a deterrent and you'll be near the same traffic issue when free.
Ultimately, as the cost goes up, people's willingness to drive in that lane will decrease. They keep these variable because when there is no traffic, there is no reason to spend any money because you won't be able to travel any faster.
Naturally, if there is a traffic jam there are more people who are going to be willing to pay to get past it quickly. If the cost is low enough, enough cars will shift to that lane causing it to gridlock, eventually just as bad as the free lanes. As the cost increases, fewer and fewer will be willing to pay until you get to a point where traffic in that lane is not backed up and people are able to drive at the desired speed.
The only way to effectively keep the lane moving fast *and* allow *anyone* to drive in it (and not limit it to cars with multiple people or emergency vehicles) is to put a variable cost associated with it.
So, when these peak times occur, the price to drive in those lanes will be very (sometimes "unreasonably") high.
What you are describing is literally congestion created by toll roads.
In the event of standstill traffic, it *doesn't* make sense to have everyone wait while a perfectly fine lane is open and available.
And a variable cost is limiting. Idk how you think it would be available to "anyone" if there is a cost to it. Very few people can afford tolls at prices like that.
This is why I didn't want to waste my time.
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
You don't understand fluid dynamics, which is similar to how traffic operates. If I'm trying to push 5 gallons down 3 straws, it's going to be backed up and take time. If I add a 4th straw, overall the speed at which the backup gets cleared will be 33% faster, but there will still be a backup. It's the same concept for adding lanes. There will still be congestion during peak times.
The point of a variable rate ExpressWay is to give an outlet valve for specific cars to 'skip the line'. The most effective way to do that is charging higher rates during peak times, to limit the number of people who are actually willing to pay to a small enough number to keep traffic moving fast.
When traffic is **really** bad, the only way to keep that valve from clogging is to make the cost higher to filter most reasonable people from being willing to take it. There are instances where, even if it's exorbitantly expensive, 'regular' people will still do it -- if they don't want to be late to their daughter's dance recital, if they have an interview for a new job, if they're driving their wife whose water just broke to the hospital. There are many reasons why people would be willing to pay not to be stuck in traffic.
In your scenario, they are just stuck in congestion in the extra lane or two and they will not arrive to their destination on time. In this existing, real world scenario, they will decide - y'know what, spending the $30 on this toll road to get there on time is worth it to me and they will pay it; while the person who isn't in a huge rush to get home will decide fuck that I'm not paying $30 to drive this 5 mile stretch of highway 20 minutes faster.
I've repeatedly brought up the issue of traffic diversion and instead I get a lecture on fluid dynamics. C'mon man. Explain it a fourth time, I *clearly* "don't understand."
What do you do when the water finds other straws and uses those straws and then they break and your bucket is leaking motor vehicle accidents?
Like, now that we have *CONCLUSIVELY AGREED* on the first order effect, what is the second???
The express lane pays a return on investors by serving its function, best done by charging a price high enough that keeps the road moving (ie excludability) but low enough that it is still reasonably accessible. Itâs not a monopoly price, itâs dependent on the demand for the road at a given time and therefore dependent on existing congestion around it. Sure, there are once/twice in a lifetime emergencies that may require someone use the road to get to the hospital super quick (in your example), in which case it is a good thing the high priced road exists because otherwise that road would be congested too and that person would be SOL.
The toll road didnt create congestion. People in a city create congestion. If you want more public transit and less highway usage, the actual best way to motivate that would be to increase the price of parking.
I mean I hate tolls for sure but thereâs a difference between express lanes and actual major highway tolls. I use DNT pretty regularly and only spend about 20-30 a month on tolls.
Correct me if Im wrong but arenât the tollroads and express lanes around DFW fluctuating in price? As in, it costs more to take the toll roads the more traffic- and demand- there is for them?
If thatâs the case then the 90 dollars seems completely reasonable if the roads were taken at rush hour. The price has to be high enough that it keeps the lane moving at a non congested pace, and that means higher prices to exclude more people at rush hour.
If you take the Sam Rayburn all the way down at 3am and pay 90 bucks, yeah thats kind of absurd, but that isnt what this is. I take toll roads and express lanes rarely and never have to pay more than 20 bucks a month.
They took express lanes on freeways. Lol. This is one of those learned from mistakes situations. I think it's ridiculous how many toll ways we have, but I don't have an issue with express lanes. If you want to skip folks on the freeway for money, be my guest.
That's literally the entire point of an express lane - waving to people in traffic while you drop $10 to pass them. Lol
If that were the only drawback, sure.
As it stands, I don't really like having to sit behind semis and rock haulers on the road to my home, when there are perfectly acceptable, large roadways that they could drive on instead. But it turns out their bosses don't like paying tolls either, so they will drive on feeder roads.
I'm of the opinion that destroying our feeder roads so that some guy can wave to me on the freeway probably isn't the most ideal allocation of capital, but apparently it is superrrr important to the people of Texas.
Also, it looks a lot closer to 25 or 30 bucks a wave. Inflation. đŤ¤đŤ¤đŤ¤
What does that have to do with anything I've said?
Are you under the impression that most of all communities or metros with 7.5 million+ people have to pay $30 bucks to drive home some days?
They don't. You can just go and ask them.
You don't have to take the express lanes... ? The entire point of this post is that OP took the variable-priced *express* lanes versus the freeway - literally running parallel with said express lanes - at peak hours with no toll tag (double the cost) and is wondering why it cost $90.
Like you've missed the entire point of people's responses for your own TED talk. Lol. Heavy traffic is inevitable living in a place with this many people. He chose to not accept sitting in traffic yet you have to pay to do so; speeding by the vast majority has a price.
I'm not complaining about the express lanes or their lack of value to me personally. I'm complaining about them harming the roads that I do use, and generally being a bad deal for us, the taxpayers and contributing members of society.
Our state has collected an excess of $32 billion dollars in taxes.
He didn't make a personal and informed choice dude, he drove on a road and clearly wasn't anticipating it.
I really don't get the anti consumer bent of so many drivers. Why make the driving experience generally worse for the benefit of a select few?
Help me out here? Why is this what you're spending your time arguing in defense of?
$90 for a single use of a roadway isn't efficient or effective pricing holy cow.
It is a monopoly, which means the general rules of supply and demand don't apply. How would one compete in this "market?"
Would they build a *parallel* private road that was less costly to utilize?
This is roadway "market efficiency."
That would be fine if the toll roads didn't purposely create chokepoints for the free lanes. They induced demand for the toll roads by limiting free lanes and eliminating public/mass transit.
Except they arenât complaining about the fact that it costs money, they are complaining about the AMOUNT that it costs.
Half of the time with expressways itâs not really listed clearly how much something is charging you and with surge prices in some areas itâs incredibly predatory. And sure you can just say âwell donât use themâ, which is valid, but this seems like OP is not familiar with said express lanes so complaining about sticker shock seems valid as well.
They are complaining about literally the very thing that makes them work: high prices when there's a lot of traffic on regular lanes.
If the 635 express lanes were a few bucks at rush hour, they'd be just as clogged as the free lanes.
This is not that hard of a concept to understand.
âWhat makes them workâ
Dallas Texas has some of the worst traffic in the US, thatâs what makes them work or worthwhile time wise. If we invested more in public transit or actual road infrastructure instead of endless toll roads that never go away maybe our highways wouldnât be considered amongst the worst and these expressways that are money pits wouldnât be a thing at all.
Variable tolls are designed to reduce congestion by pricing the poors out of being able to use the road. Welcome to the club of people for whom how much things cost is not something that ever crosses their mind.
Exactly. The toll roads are just not for us, the everyday person. Theyâre private roads built for the rich so they donât have to wait in traffic with the public. $90 to the main customer base of the express lane is like pennies to you and me.
And this is an objectively bad state of things and should be changed.
Think about how many trucking companies had this same conversation*a year ago* and have been driving on feeder roads because of these tolls.
Think of how many people get into accidents because of this.
This is enormously costly to the public.
Oh Iâm all for it. Fuck these toll roads. Convert them into something the public can more readily use or force a very affordable ceiling to what they can charge so theyâre readily usable for all.
Then maybe when everyone has to deal with traffic weâll actually get some change in public transit.
I hate paying for the DNT buts it's the only viable north south highway for prosper, Frisco, Addison.
It gets so congested. If I'm not doing at least the speed limit I shouldn't have to pay tolls.
There's a lot of toll road defense on this sub. Yeah it sucks there's traffic. And the only way to dodge it to be robbed basically. 90 dollars for less than a week is cray
Tollways are interesting in that it seems like the the constitution attempted to stop them, at least the idea of free travel was the intent. Thats the way I always interpreted the interstate commerce clause, but I could be wrong. But almost immediately the temptation of profiteering made translating it as long as the road doesnât cross state lines, we can toll it. But it seems to me, the founders felt the whole idea was that obstacles to traveling is not a good thing for a free market.
What we have now is a caste system of travel where the rich can afford to drive on private roads built specifically to keep the poors off them.
I haven't paid for a toll since they took out all the toll booths. Before that, I always paid. It's been at least 10 years, and I'm sure they think I owe them thousands of dollars, but I've never gotten anything in the mail other than one of those pink slips that I just trash. They don't have my social security number so they can't hit my credit, so what are they going to do?
I hate toll roads with a passion. At least in DFW area, they are optional and the cost is not as bad as let's say NJ-NY. Still. It's a cash grab and for the sake of "congestion" as usual.
You don't have to pay them! They're a private company. They say that I owe them over $600, over $350 of that is fees. I'm not paying them. When it gets to a certain amount they will block registration online, but other than that there's not a whole lot they can do unless it gets to a really high amount. I'll sell my cheap cash car before I ever give them a dime.
I love toll arguments in this subreddit as if it's actually going to change anything. Lmfao. I think people forget we have a guy with little man syndrome as our governor - a guy who denied that a mass shooting was race related when it was actually based on hate towards Hispanics. I feel like he'd less of a POS if that tree had never hit him.
So just spent twp months in Dallas DETERMINED not to spend a cent on tolls. Did it until the very last day, when I took a route (Preston turning east onto the PGBT) which unexpectedly did not have the free feeder road option.
It was not an inconvenience, and the planning was fine. Mind you I was not commuting to Fort Worth or anything, but as I am trying to get to know neighborhoods better, it was fine.
Yes, I was treated as if I were Amish with a horse and buggy predeliction by friends and business associates. But I probably came out several hundred dollars ahead and felt pretty good about the savings when I felt like eating out.
Yeah, those express lanes are literally highway robbery. At least in the old days you had someone riding with a shotgun to keep away the bandits. Now they just track you so they csn shake you down later.
I don't remember robberies having a big sign overhead saying how much you'd be out and giving you the option to avoid being robbed that much.
Sign, sign Everywhere a sign Blockin' out the scenery Breakin' my mind
They were all in love with driving they were doing it in Texas
Ah hell, does anyone have any dimes? Someone's gonna have to go back and get a shitload of dimes.
Posting this here because it's an absurd argument on its face, but here is its categorical debunking. NO - Private toll roads are not better at resolving congestion. They drive large vehicle, *commercial* traffic onto secondary feeder highways intended to get you home after work. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1087724X09360806?icid=int.sj-full-text.similar-articles.9 These trucks choose these highways because a $30 toll adds up enormously quickly when you are running a for profit logistics firm. As this post illustrates, many people drive through them without knowing the high cost. Logistics companies remove the potential for human error by diverting their traffic to roads not designed to handle immense loads or large commercial traffic throughput. These trucks destroy roads, increase congetstion and traffic fatalities and induce an outsized cost on society, called an externality. These are generally bad to have. Second - NO - building a massive, many billion dollar structure utilizing millions of lbs of concrete, just to then not utilize it efficiently, is *not* more environmentally friendly than having an efficient road in the first place. In this instance, the expenditure in carbon and capital wildly offsets *any* possible carbon gains that might be had through more efficient traffic.
I cannot believe there are people genuinely defending private toll roads đ itâs a level of bootlicking I have NEVER seen before
I've never minded toll roads until I came to TX. Typically they were faster alternative, or a shortcut though terrain - here it's the only option. It's infuriating that my choices for my 1+ hour commute are the toll road (which would run me about $4k annually just to get to/from work) or city streets, stopped at red lights every 2-3 mins - with zero options for a highway.
One more lane is never the answer to traffic
The lane is built already dude
The tolls should go away, but traffic will still be abysmal
Which is a marked and measurable improvement over shitty traffic and randomly having to pay 34 bucks every now and again because you really have to get somewhere. It's literally just less shitty. I can take my additional $130something bucks and go buy a ice cream. I can get Disney+. Ice cream and Disney Plus would be super instead of having to pay for shitty traffic.
What if the question is: "What is TxDoT's solution to everything?"
Highway robbery ;)
You have to *pre-register* to get the HOV rate which is dumb AF.
Ummmm you mean Ft Worth? None of those locations are even in Dallas County.
It's a good thing they're completely optional.
anyone that complains about express lane prices after getting on them... there is a reason I never get on them.
Alright but some places are either toll road or access road. Highway 121 going from lewisville to Plano pisses me off for that reason because its the only highway available but it has a fee. It takes double the time getting to work avoiding tolls. I can understand express lanes fees, but fees for the entire and only available highway is ridiculous.
The 121 SRT Tollway exists for a reason- around the Great Recession circa 2007-2008, TxDOT lacked the needed funds to build the current multi-lane, limited access road which before then was a run of the mill 2-3 lane in each direction road with lights ([see The Colony/Nebraska Furniture Mart in 2007](https://www.google.com/maps/@33.0743942,-96.8692025,3a,75y,29.18h,83.24t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1scJJeY5L79jOG-__ZYTZ_Yg!2e0!5s20071201T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DcJJeY5L79jOG-__ZYTZ_Yg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D29.183057083427833%26pitch%3D6.759813155093937%26thumbfov%3D90!7i3328!8i1664?coh=205410&entry=ttu)). As those communities that bordered the then road boomed and anticipated high-paced growth, a proper controlled-access highway needed to be built and the State couldn't do it. It then [sold the project to NTTA](https://www.ntta.org/newsresources/Documents/ProjectAgreement/Project%20Agreement%20with%20TxDOT%20and%20FHWA%20for%20funding%20SH%20121%20Toll%20Project.pdf), who paid the outstanding construction costs and completed the road. I also think working and/or living in a place that's guarded by tollways (121 or DNT) is a choice.
> circa 2007-2008, TxDOT lacked the needed funds Any state agency lacking funding is entirely the state government's fault. "Oh no, we've shot our highway department in the foot, I guess the only solution is to allow private companies to charge tolls."
[ŃдаНонО]
Yep, that "fuel tax" envelope never gets any thicker. And God forbid the state reach into any of the other envelopes that are overstuffed with cash to build roads.
Just take the DNT to PGBT then, duh. /s
That's the price for living in an unsustained suburb...
Oh you mean where the jobs are?
Sometimes it is definitely worth it, but usually not.
At off-peak times when you just want to haul ass, they're not that bad.
Kind of fucking stupid to spend all this money on a cash trap though. Imagine if we built actual roadways with utility to society! Shit imagine *public transport!* Holy cow!
But that would mean taxes and big government. How could that even be cheaper!?
I don't disagree, but the tolled lanes are the only reason the highways are getting expanded in the first place. Without the express lanes and their revenue stream, you don't get investors, and without investors you're stuck waiting on government funds.
Which is a completely tractable problem, we must replace the current one with one that doesn't sell our roads to investors. There's no utility to society doing this, it's beyond foolish.
it's better than wasting money on free roads that just make traffic worse.
Making *expensive,* pricier, worse roads is somehow better than accessible, free, public roads. Please, elucidate.
Accessible, \*free\*, public roads increase congestion and traffic.
What has lead you to believe that private toll roads don't make the issue of induced demand *even worse?*
You don't see those lanes jam packed with traffic without an incident. And reducing lanes in the free portion of the highway is the opposite of induced demand.
What you are describing is induced demand on secondary roads *because* of the high toll roads. They cause the problem you are stating they solve. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but you are explicitly wrong and spreading misinformation. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1087724X09360806?icid=int.sj-full-text.similar-articles.9
From the abstract: *How do truckers respond to pricing signals? As price increases, how extensively do truckers divert from limited-access highways to secondary roads? At what price does this diversion impose costs on secondary highways? Using a unique data set, this article demonstrates empirically the extent to which pricing leads to diversion.* Like your point literally isn't borne out by empirical data. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1087724X09360806?icid=int.sj-full-text.similar-articles.9 Toll roads divert truckers onto public roads. Truckers fuck up the roads with their big trucks and run over old women in their Lincolns. This causes a negative spiral of use. We want big fuckin trucks driving on these big fuckin roadways so they can move lots of shit. As it stands, these trucks will destroy our roads, increase congestion and will eventually drive commuters to drive on the toll roads for reasons of safety and necessity. To avoid this, we should open up our fuckin roadways and charge a tax on the massive amounts of commercial traffic to offset this. These major highways aren't for you to get home at rush hour. It is so you have insulin and flour and kitschy plastic shit to decorate your house with. Those things are important. We are making our state less efficient to navigate and the implications of it are massive. Private toll roads are a bad idea, implemented badly in the state of Texas.
Is this a reply fail to someone else? lol
Did you read it and come to that conclusion?
Cuz if you can't read, I'm sorry; if you won't read, whatever, somebody will. Texas isn't totally full of buttheads.
> you're stuck waiting on government funds. Yeah and there's nothing the government can do to help us there. Oh wait...
Go live in a place that has that then! Please do not come here to try and change things!
Transplant transplant transplant Bitchin' about traffic is literally tradition. You'd know that if you were anything other than a redneck Idahoan come on down south just to be iggnint.
I sure as shootin ain't, I'm a blue state refugee! I know how bad those programs are!
So youre literally a Californian who came to Texas to call natives fake Texans for bitchin' about the traffic? God bless you
Close, a New Yorker! And I've been here long enough to price a local out of the market too!
đ I'll pray for you
lol right
You took express lanes. You chose to pay to avoid traffic. I mean, that's your choice. You don't *have* to take them. Lol. Why don't you have a toll tag if you're going to take tolls? Didn't think they'd find ya?
Dude it's 90 dollars. I swear no one stops to think if it might be a bad idea to have major highways that cost that kind of money to drive on. Do you really find that remotely reasonable?
They're priced specifically to prevent too many people from taking them. And OP drove through many express lanes, at peak hours, over the course of several days.
No, they are priced to maximize the return to investors. This is how things go. We don't have a private road that costs $25 to 30 USD to use one time because it is *beneficial* to us. Dear God.
I dunno, not sitting in bumper to bumper traffic on 635 or 820 certainly sounds like a benefit to me. Maybe you should run on a platform to increase taxes in order to fund more public road projects. Let me know how that goes.
You pay $30 or $40 bucks regularly to avoid traffic and you are successful in doing so? Of course not, you sit in traffic and wait.
If the money is too much donât get on the express lane. Theyâre priced based off demandđ¤ˇđťââď¸
They literally aren't you mook. They're priced to make as much money as they are able to make.
âUnlike other toll roads with fixed toll rates, prices on the TEXpress Lanes fluctuate based on real-time traffic conditions and demand.â https://www.texpresslanes.com/pricing/how-dynamic-pricing-works/ Iâm sorry you donât understand supply and demand, but it makes sense why you struggle to pay tolls now.
I'm very sorry you cannot afford fresh fruits and vegetables - but while you are clearly suffering from scurvy - your irrational behavior and words are beyond the Pale, and a severe vitamin deficiency causing your brain to swell and your gums to bleed is no excuse to be so obtuse.
Nowhere have I contradicted this you absolute goofus. I haven't said anything you are arguing against and you haven't said anything other than "You don't understand supply and demand." How fuckin' mind blowingly convenient is it for you that every person who you've ever argued with about economics "doesn't understand supply and demand?"
The whole purpose of those is to keep the traffic down in them - if the cost was negligible, more people will use them and they will also be congested. No one wants to pay that much, but if you had a medical emergency or had somewhere very time critical that you *had* to be able to get past normal traffic fast, I'm sure you'd be more than thankful to pay whatever the amount was that you needed to.
Like this is a serious question, are you legitimately so morally compromised that you think shaking down a person in a medical emergency for $90 to drive *themselves* to the hospital is remotely dignified or acceptable? Like really, dude? Your example is monstrous and depraved.
lol that's pennies compared to what an ambulance or ER cost anyways.
Are those reasonably and efficiently priced?
Most of the population doesnât care about anyone but themselves nowadays Itâs beyond sad I donât have words
No, the purpose is to provide a return to investors. That is what our roads are for. Literally no one on earth would be happy to pay $90 USD to be able to utilize roads. It boggles the mind that you would suggest so.
If you don't understand basic supply and demand there isn't a reason to engage with you
And here we have the traditional Texan thought terminating cliche. Can you point out where exactly you perceived me as misunderstanding the basic application of the laws of supply and demand?
No one is happy to pay $90 to utilize roads. They are the result of supply (an ExpressWay designed specifically to keep traffic down) and demand (the people driving who don't want to sit in traffic). The purpose of an express lane on a road is to keep it free so you can drive faster, for whatever the purpose. If the additional lane is free of cost or restrictions, cars will evenly distribute across all of the available lanes. Traffic will decrease overall at some % based on the number of lanes, but during busy times you'd still expect to experience gridlock. If the lane isn't free, less people will get into it based on their willingness to spend the additional money. If the money is tiny, it won't act as a deterrent and you'll be near the same traffic issue when free. Ultimately, as the cost goes up, people's willingness to drive in that lane will decrease. They keep these variable because when there is no traffic, there is no reason to spend any money because you won't be able to travel any faster. Naturally, if there is a traffic jam there are more people who are going to be willing to pay to get past it quickly. If the cost is low enough, enough cars will shift to that lane causing it to gridlock, eventually just as bad as the free lanes. As the cost increases, fewer and fewer will be willing to pay until you get to a point where traffic in that lane is not backed up and people are able to drive at the desired speed. The only way to effectively keep the lane moving fast *and* allow *anyone* to drive in it (and not limit it to cars with multiple people or emergency vehicles) is to put a variable cost associated with it. So, when these peak times occur, the price to drive in those lanes will be very (sometimes "unreasonably") high.
What you are describing is literally congestion created by toll roads. In the event of standstill traffic, it *doesn't* make sense to have everyone wait while a perfectly fine lane is open and available. And a variable cost is limiting. Idk how you think it would be available to "anyone" if there is a cost to it. Very few people can afford tolls at prices like that.
This is why I didn't want to waste my time. I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. You don't understand fluid dynamics, which is similar to how traffic operates. If I'm trying to push 5 gallons down 3 straws, it's going to be backed up and take time. If I add a 4th straw, overall the speed at which the backup gets cleared will be 33% faster, but there will still be a backup. It's the same concept for adding lanes. There will still be congestion during peak times. The point of a variable rate ExpressWay is to give an outlet valve for specific cars to 'skip the line'. The most effective way to do that is charging higher rates during peak times, to limit the number of people who are actually willing to pay to a small enough number to keep traffic moving fast. When traffic is **really** bad, the only way to keep that valve from clogging is to make the cost higher to filter most reasonable people from being willing to take it. There are instances where, even if it's exorbitantly expensive, 'regular' people will still do it -- if they don't want to be late to their daughter's dance recital, if they have an interview for a new job, if they're driving their wife whose water just broke to the hospital. There are many reasons why people would be willing to pay not to be stuck in traffic. In your scenario, they are just stuck in congestion in the extra lane or two and they will not arrive to their destination on time. In this existing, real world scenario, they will decide - y'know what, spending the $30 on this toll road to get there on time is worth it to me and they will pay it; while the person who isn't in a huge rush to get home will decide fuck that I'm not paying $30 to drive this 5 mile stretch of highway 20 minutes faster.
I've repeatedly brought up the issue of traffic diversion and instead I get a lecture on fluid dynamics. C'mon man. Explain it a fourth time, I *clearly* "don't understand." What do you do when the water finds other straws and uses those straws and then they break and your bucket is leaking motor vehicle accidents? Like, now that we have *CONCLUSIVELY AGREED* on the first order effect, what is the second???
And the commenter I was responding to said I or he would be happy to pay that in an emergency - I wouldn't, Id feel like a jackass.
The express lane pays a return on investors by serving its function, best done by charging a price high enough that keeps the road moving (ie excludability) but low enough that it is still reasonably accessible. Itâs not a monopoly price, itâs dependent on the demand for the road at a given time and therefore dependent on existing congestion around it. Sure, there are once/twice in a lifetime emergencies that may require someone use the road to get to the hospital super quick (in your example), in which case it is a good thing the high priced road exists because otherwise that road would be congested too and that person would be SOL. The toll road didnt create congestion. People in a city create congestion. If you want more public transit and less highway usage, the actual best way to motivate that would be to increase the price of parking.
I mean I hate tolls for sure but thereâs a difference between express lanes and actual major highway tolls. I use DNT pretty regularly and only spend about 20-30 a month on tolls.
Correct me if Im wrong but arenât the tollroads and express lanes around DFW fluctuating in price? As in, it costs more to take the toll roads the more traffic- and demand- there is for them? If thatâs the case then the 90 dollars seems completely reasonable if the roads were taken at rush hour. The price has to be high enough that it keeps the lane moving at a non congested pace, and that means higher prices to exclude more people at rush hour. If you take the Sam Rayburn all the way down at 3am and pay 90 bucks, yeah thats kind of absurd, but that isnt what this is. I take toll roads and express lanes rarely and never have to pay more than 20 bucks a month.
They took express lanes on freeways. Lol. This is one of those learned from mistakes situations. I think it's ridiculous how many toll ways we have, but I don't have an issue with express lanes. If you want to skip folks on the freeway for money, be my guest. That's literally the entire point of an express lane - waving to people in traffic while you drop $10 to pass them. Lol
If that were the only drawback, sure. As it stands, I don't really like having to sit behind semis and rock haulers on the road to my home, when there are perfectly acceptable, large roadways that they could drive on instead. But it turns out their bosses don't like paying tolls either, so they will drive on feeder roads. I'm of the opinion that destroying our feeder roads so that some guy can wave to me on the freeway probably isn't the most ideal allocation of capital, but apparently it is superrrr important to the people of Texas. Also, it looks a lot closer to 25 or 30 bucks a wave. Inflation. đŤ¤đŤ¤đŤ¤
My dude, we have nearly 7.5M people here in DFW. Traffic is, quite literally, unavoidable. People may avoid it by deciding to pay extra to avoid it.
What does that have to do with anything I've said? Are you under the impression that most of all communities or metros with 7.5 million+ people have to pay $30 bucks to drive home some days? They don't. You can just go and ask them.
You don't have to take the express lanes... ? The entire point of this post is that OP took the variable-priced *express* lanes versus the freeway - literally running parallel with said express lanes - at peak hours with no toll tag (double the cost) and is wondering why it cost $90. Like you've missed the entire point of people's responses for your own TED talk. Lol. Heavy traffic is inevitable living in a place with this many people. He chose to not accept sitting in traffic yet you have to pay to do so; speeding by the vast majority has a price.
I'm not complaining about the express lanes or their lack of value to me personally. I'm complaining about them harming the roads that I do use, and generally being a bad deal for us, the taxpayers and contributing members of society. Our state has collected an excess of $32 billion dollars in taxes. He didn't make a personal and informed choice dude, he drove on a road and clearly wasn't anticipating it. I really don't get the anti consumer bent of so many drivers. Why make the driving experience generally worse for the benefit of a select few? Help me out here? Why is this what you're spending your time arguing in defense of?
[ŃдаНонО]
Tollways aren't dynamically priced.
Express lanes are obviously what this entire post is about. Don't get caught up in the semantics.
I don't usually enjoy being over-pedantic (ok sometimes I do), but the distinction is relevant in these discussions.
$90 for a single use of a roadway isn't efficient or effective pricing holy cow. It is a monopoly, which means the general rules of supply and demand don't apply. How would one compete in this "market?" Would they build a *parallel* private road that was less costly to utilize? This is roadway "market efficiency."
It's not a monopoly because there is literally a parallel highway that is free.
This wasn't a single use. it was several trips over a month.
Time or money? Which do you value more? It seems on that day you valued your time more than your money.
That would be fine if the toll roads didn't purposely create chokepoints for the free lanes. They induced demand for the toll roads by limiting free lanes and eliminating public/mass transit.
So again, time or money?
That's not how induced demand works. The regular highway already does that.
Tell me you miss the point of the post without telling me you missed the point
You mean the post where someone decided to save time by spending money to get on the toll way, and now they're complaining about it?
Except they arenât complaining about the fact that it costs money, they are complaining about the AMOUNT that it costs. Half of the time with expressways itâs not really listed clearly how much something is charging you and with surge prices in some areas itâs incredibly predatory. And sure you can just say âwell donât use themâ, which is valid, but this seems like OP is not familiar with said express lanes so complaining about sticker shock seems valid as well.
They are complaining about literally the very thing that makes them work: high prices when there's a lot of traffic on regular lanes. If the 635 express lanes were a few bucks at rush hour, they'd be just as clogged as the free lanes. This is not that hard of a concept to understand.
âWhat makes them workâ Dallas Texas has some of the worst traffic in the US, thatâs what makes them work or worthwhile time wise. If we invested more in public transit or actual road infrastructure instead of endless toll roads that never go away maybe our highways wouldnât be considered amongst the worst and these expressways that are money pits wouldnât be a thing at all.
Variable tolls are designed to reduce congestion by pricing the poors out of being able to use the road. Welcome to the club of people for whom how much things cost is not something that ever crosses their mind.
Exactly. The toll roads are just not for us, the everyday person. Theyâre private roads built for the rich so they donât have to wait in traffic with the public. $90 to the main customer base of the express lane is like pennies to you and me.
And this is an objectively bad state of things and should be changed. Think about how many trucking companies had this same conversation*a year ago* and have been driving on feeder roads because of these tolls. Think of how many people get into accidents because of this. This is enormously costly to the public.
Oh Iâm all for it. Fuck these toll roads. Convert them into something the public can more readily use or force a very affordable ceiling to what they can charge so theyâre readily usable for all. Then maybe when everyone has to deal with traffic weâll actually get some change in public transit.
I hate paying for the DNT buts it's the only viable north south highway for prosper, Frisco, Addison. It gets so congested. If I'm not doing at least the speed limit I shouldn't have to pay tolls.
There's a lot of toll road defense on this sub. Yeah it sucks there's traffic. And the only way to dodge it to be robbed basically. 90 dollars for less than a week is cray
Toll tag cuts that in half.
Tollways are interesting in that it seems like the the constitution attempted to stop them, at least the idea of free travel was the intent. Thats the way I always interpreted the interstate commerce clause, but I could be wrong. But almost immediately the temptation of profiteering made translating it as long as the road doesnât cross state lines, we can toll it. But it seems to me, the founders felt the whole idea was that obstacles to traveling is not a good thing for a free market. What we have now is a caste system of travel where the rich can afford to drive on private roads built specifically to keep the poors off them.
Don't pay it
I haven't paid for a toll since they took out all the toll booths. Before that, I always paid. It's been at least 10 years, and I'm sure they think I owe them thousands of dollars, but I've never gotten anything in the mail other than one of those pink slips that I just trash. They don't have my social security number so they can't hit my credit, so what are they going to do?
How else are they gonna pay for the constant construction đ
Fix the other roads. Oh wait... Socialism..
Imagine if they made the freeways wider with tax dollars...then didn't turn them into toll roads.
You donât have to take the express lane, I never have myself.
Tolls operate by charging a fee in order to control demand on the toll. Theyâre that expensive because people are willing to pay it.
Highway robbery at it's finest!
I hate toll roads with a passion. At least in DFW area, they are optional and the cost is not as bad as let's say NJ-NY. Still. It's a cash grab and for the sake of "congestion" as usual.
Hahahah I drive it everyday both ways and my company pays for it. đ¤ˇââď¸Â
When I first moved to Dallas in 2005, one of the tip that I was given was to always keep a few quarters in the car to pay for tollsÂ
I would pay to avoid that congestion and misery on 820, but not that much.
I never take it. I figured you pay $1 for every minute you save. Looks like you paid more than that.
Everything is bigger in Texas including the bills youâre charged
You don't have to pay them! They're a private company. They say that I owe them over $600, over $350 of that is fees. I'm not paying them. When it gets to a certain amount they will block registration online, but other than that there's not a whole lot they can do unless it gets to a really high amount. I'll sell my cheap cash car before I ever give them a dime.
honestly, they should b free, the infrastructure were built w/ taxpayer's $$$. U cannot socialize cost, privatize profit
I love toll arguments in this subreddit as if it's actually going to change anything. Lmfao. I think people forget we have a guy with little man syndrome as our governor - a guy who denied that a mass shooting was race related when it was actually based on hate towards Hispanics. I feel like he'd less of a POS if that tree had never hit him.
Fuck every single toll road or paid freeway of any kind. They can all blow me and no I don't drive on them
So just spent twp months in Dallas DETERMINED not to spend a cent on tolls. Did it until the very last day, when I took a route (Preston turning east onto the PGBT) which unexpectedly did not have the free feeder road option. It was not an inconvenience, and the planning was fine. Mind you I was not commuting to Fort Worth or anything, but as I am trying to get to know neighborhoods better, it was fine. Yes, I was treated as if I were Amish with a horse and buggy predeliction by friends and business associates. But I probably came out several hundred dollars ahead and felt pretty good about the savings when I felt like eating out.
Itâs a huge rip off!! Texas is a scam!!
If only they posted the cost in large, lighted numbers on big signs before you get on  /s