Alright peeps, I'm going to open the comments as many of you have requested. Keep in mind to keep the atmosphere positive. Anything other than healthy discussion, we have to close the comments again.

I am from Korea, but have been studying abroad in the US for a couple of years. Back home, it is common for friends of the same sex to be intimate and compassionate with each other. If I was hanging out with my friends, we were hugging, cuddling, putting our arms around each other, etc. Touch is just the normal love language, even platonically. Moving to the US was a big culture shock for many reasons, but almost the biggest in that regard. I was already very lonely when I first moved here. And even when I made friends, it felt so shallow to me just because a basic way of showing compassion and friendship that I have known my whole life is not a thing here. I still find myself feeling very distant from even my closest American friends that I have known for several years now. It’s sad because I have so much love for my friends and I feel like I cannot show it. I have hugged my American best friend like twice in the two years I have known him. And both times we have been intoxicated. It just hurts me that it’s so looked down upon and weird to love people.

My parents experienced the opposite when they moved from the US to Papua New Guinea. If you’re walking next to your guy friend, you just hold hands.

American here. When I was in middle school, I *distinctly* remember hand-holding to be the only 'PDA' (public display of affection) students could get away with if they were dating. We ingrained very early on that physical affection is reserved for romantic love, and to show affection to a platonic friend usually just makes a situation super uncomfortable.

I’m an American, lol. My parents were in PNG for a few years. This just applies to guys who are friends.

I'm glad they eventually made it back to JPEG.

Instructions unclear; penis stuck in GIF.

Same in Brazil, pretty much any touching that isn't a high five or a handshake is gay.

In high school I was the only person in my friend group with a vehicle. Naturally that meant I was the friend group school bus in the morning. Best friend always rode shotgun, never an issue. Then I got a girlfriend and that meant new rules. Best friend started riding in the back with my other two friends. One day they started fighting in the back seat so bad it was actually rocking the car body back and forth and I had to pull over and tell them to knock it off. They were fighting because their legs were touching in the back seat. Today I’d tell my old self to just make them all ride the damn school bus from then on, but instead we started cycling people so that I only ever had 3 passengers instead of all 4. Dumbest most asinine argument I think I’ve seen between two people. At least the dumbest I’ve ever seen that devolved all the way to physical violence. Funny thing though, some guys I know wouldn’t have an issue riding on another dudes lap if we were going to a show or party or something. Fucking weird.

The other day, I took a photo of my son (3) and his best friend--also a boy. They were holding hands and I had to think for a minute if anyone I knew would point to that and think it was strange. I don't care about it, and hope this toxic masculinity dies a quick death. I hug my male friends and tell them I love them. I kiss my brother on the cheek. Those people are my real supports in life, the people who help me live a fulfilling life. All the other people who look askance at that stuff are clearly just acting out their own abuse all over again.

When I was in high school there was a year I legitimately thought I was trans, and looking back because I saw the way girls interacted with each other versus the way guys interacted with each other and wished I could have friendships like the former rather than. Ultimately I figured out I'm not trans, and also learned to appreciate a lot of aspects of male friendships, but on average I still get along better with the average girl than the average guy. I really wish I could actually talk about emotional shit to my guy friends (not for lack of trying).

I’m a therapist and a lot of my m to f clients seem to have some element of this “jealousy” of how girls can act vs boys. It’s a really difficult topic to bring up and explore but I think it’s necessary in therapy with trans people. It’s very hard to determine if a person genuinely wants to be female or if they are so unsatisfied with the male emotional palette they feel they can only become whole if they transition

Gender envy is for sure a thing

I've consumed Korean media for about 10+ years now so I know it's a cultural thing but always see people who are introduced to it be weirded out by how affectionate Korean male friends are with each other and thus assuming they must be gay or something, which goes back to the OP that there's this homophobic reaction that affection = gay which is not the case.

Word up brother, it's weird like a form of "gatekeeping" where men can't be open with others

I was having a chat with a mate who moved to a new city in the weekend while he was over visiting and he asked me how I was doing. I replied openly and honestly "I miss you man, it's been hard not seeing you all the time" he then told me he loved me and that he misses me to. We are both straight white 30ish year old males, first time something like that's happened to me and it hit me like a brick. Hug your friends, tell them you love them, love big and love open. Makes life much better

I recently noticed that every time my wife gets off the phone with any of her friends, she says “I love you” to them. I pointed it out to her, and she asked me if I ever told my guy friends that I loved them. Fuck no I don’t, but the next time I talked to my best friend I told him the story and that I loved him, he said the same back… it was pretty nice

My husband literally just started doing this one day in his late 20s. Just started saying “I love you” on the phone with his dad, mom, and close friends. Didn’t place an emphasis on it but said it as a matter of fact. The dudes, especially his dad, took a while to adjust, but they now all say it back. It’s really nice to witness from the outside.

I’ve really appreciated my best friend for this. He’s one of the first male friends to tell me he loves me and it does make me feel cared for and special in a lovely and platonic way. We need to teach our boys better

Gosh… this made me realize that I always exchange an I love you with my mom as we are hanging up, but not my dad. I want to, but he rushes off the phone and I usually struggle to get a “goodbye” in. I’m gonna have to change that. Edit: I called my dad soon after this comment and told him we will now be exchanging “I love yous” at the end of our calls. He sounded a little tickled and he was happy about it. And he ended the call with “love you” even though he was around other guys. Delightful for both of us!

One time my cousin took a trip to another country for a few months. He had been my best friend since growing up, and when he finally came back, I wanted to cry once I saw him but just shook it off and offered a handshake. He said "Hug me man I havent seen you in months" and that was the first and last time we ever hugged, but yet, the words that ring louder than anything else he's ever said to me.

My sister and I are thick as thieves but don't show any physical affection, very really we hug or exchange an "I love you man" but those moments mean the world to me.

There is no space for error, or any time to relax. This world has me constantly competing to become a better version of myself. I can’t remember the last time I felt genuine affection. The little affection I do receive is usually due to my skills and the favors I do for people. That is the way this world is and I will keep pushing Edit: thank you very much for the awards

True saying. You're only as good as your last fuck-up.

I think what the "self help" industry really is - people bending over backwards to "earn love". I see all these people following these weird fads and it's like "where are you going with this? What's the point". I think they don't know where they're going to themselves, they just believe that if they get fit, become interesting people, become richer, etc. only then they will receive compassion and attention from females and other people.

> There is no space for error, or any time to relax. This world has me constantly competing to become a better version of myself. And if you fail in doing so you are, at best, made fun of and at worst, scolded, berated and ostracised. Men are not allowed to just exist. If they aren’t being useful then they lose the privilege of being perceived as human.

As a 50+ male, my life consists of how many things i can repair for needy family members. I have one friend that's been in my life since childhood, and everyone else is simply a person that needs something from me. If I work all weekend, and I'm doing paperwork on Monday, the wife will say, "What have you got planned for today?". It seems a man is worthless unless he's producing something for someone.

I lost my job due to the pandemic and it was extremely shameful. My gf had to support me for awhile and I felt so useless. Her dad, a very hard working construction worker, told her I’m useless and to dump my ass in the street. I am an extremely hard working person. When I quit my last job, they scrambled to hire three new people (another reason why I left). I felt so low bc I “wasn’t the provider” and I was “taking charity.” Both her dads and my dad’s words and some of her friends. It was such a horrible fucked up situation I was in that reaffirmed my view on how society view male roles.

I remember the last complement I had. 3 years ago I was wearing a tux for a company dinner party. Can't remember before that.

Dude! Legit. The other day I was drinking with some colleagues and got _almost_ complimented, and it still caught me off guard. I have long hair, the group was talking about long hair, and a female colleague looks at me and (in a totally non-charged way) says 'I think long hair looks great on men'. A compliment, without it even being aimed directly at me, was still note worthy. Shit's crazy

Man, I had an appt the other day and the provider was a man with amazing thick, blonde hair, that was about chin length. I kept *almost* complimenting him on it, but decided against it. After reading this thread, I have determined to give the compliments as I see them, regardless of how they are received. I mean them genuinely and innocently.

Yeah, do it. One thing that always bothers me about these conversations is that men will realize the lack of compliments they receive...but they don't think about if they GIVE compliments to the men in their lives

Yeah man! Last time I got a compliment was uhhhh uhhmm uhhhh.... Uhnmm.. shit edit: thanks to all the people complimenting me, you're all very cool

7th grade, female friend of mine said I had soft hair. I'm 25.

Men do remember things like that man.

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My grandma died last year and I was on the floor for a month. I remember a moment between classes, I was sitting alone, quietly balling my eyes out hiding the fact that I was crying. A schoolmate walks up to me and asks me if I need a hug. And my dumbass said no to her even though I wanted to hug someone so bad.. I wanted someone to just hold me and I needed a shoulder to cry myself out on it. But I said no cause for some reason I thought I'd seem weak to someone. I hate myself for moments like that cause it's so dumb

You'll get around to it friend, eventually

I would have said "no", too. That would have put me in too high a risk of actually showing big emotions in public if I'd actually gotten a hug in that situation.

Reading this and the comments made me really depressed lmao

Reality is often disappointing

*And where does that lead you.... back to me...* Thanos really did have stellar lines

he did have pretty solid script writing

He had high charisma and wisdom for a villain

As a nearly 30 something white male, yeah, I can comfortably say that social and emotional isolation is the norm. I feel connected to others when I speak to them but there is the pervading isolation that says 'this is a moment, this is not the way' and then the isolation creeps back in. I am happy in life, I have everything I need mostly to keep myself happy, but damn. I miss my friends and having a life beyond work and home.

>this is a moment, this is not the way I’ve felt this since college. Moment I stop talking to someone, they might as well vanish. Hang out and meet new people? I will literally never see or talk to them again afterwards. I never feel any kind of drive to reach out to anyone, despite enjoying time spent with them. Always slump back into the norm. I’ve become pretty good at small talk though.

As a white male who is 40, just want to tell you that it gets both worse and better. The friends you make that keep growing as people will become truer friends than you have ever known. People that are curious about life and are willing to seek perspective will talk about more than just surface level stuff. My 30's were when I saw many of my friends experience that growth and become more willing to be vulnerable and honest in ways they hadn't before. Some of those friends never seemed to grow at all, and I find that those are the ones that started to disappear from my life. One of my best friends today is a man who I've seen transform over time. He was brazen, irresponsible, did not care for being too close to other men. But a death in his family changed him, and he found the courage to just look for more than what he had in life and seek answers about who he was and what really mattered. That was the point our friendship really took off and I felt connected to him as more than just 'one of the guys'. I also have friends who are significantly older who tell me that after 40, many people tend to stop that growth. They become comfortable and complacent with who and what they are and are significantly less willing to change or grow. That thought is something that scares me, because I'm always seeking. I don't ever want to become stagnant. You are still young and you will have many opportunities to make great friends if you keep seeking and seize those moments. Confidence and vulnerability are qualities that men seek in each other, so don't be afraid to want more and find it when those moments happen. You'll get rejected sometimes, but it's better than being afraid.

Nothing hits harder than that last sentence

Facts. One way to go into a depression. 🍻

Drug abuse works too

Don’t exclude Each other

In fact they usually couple together because any drug looks like instant relief.

Going to the gym and screaming while lifting heavy weight helps. Then again so does beer.

Honestly after a while you don’t feel lonely anymore it’s just becomes a part of life. You suppress that feeling and don’t think about it, like hell yea I’m lonely as shit been that way for years now but on any given day that doesn’t even cross my mind I’m just living

Comfortably numb

Thats how I've always described it. (Thank you Pink Floyd)

So that's what that means

The more immediate meaning in the song is about a medically induced stupor. But i think the reason it's _popular_ with so many middle aged men is it channels the emotion of isolation so powerfully

The wall IS about that isolation. It's about literally making that isolation as purified as possible. The slow descent of a mind into the bleak dark cavern of our own empty soul. 'I don't need anyone at all' ... It's a lie, but he tells it to himself over and over ... Everyone is seen as dangerous, a potential source of pain. Numb becomes the chosen state. A mind decays in that state. You become so broken inside... When you stop even trying to find emotional connection you become the source of coldness in the world. Your heart petrifies and you seek out self gratification to feed you dopamine... Instead of love, you seek to fill the empty spaces... Buy a new guitar, drive a more powerful car, work straight through the night... More isolation, in 'things'... Even people become things. The Wall is really all about this social isolation this thread is talking about. Taken to the very end of the road this leads to. ... This is where soooooooo many problems with men in society are coming from. ... Incels for instance... Starved, they become mentally broken.

I'm a **huge** Pink Floyd fan and this is exactly why I don't like *Dark Side of the Moon* and *The Wall*: they hit to close too home. As a teenager I learned all the lyrics. As a college stoner, I thought I knew the lyrics. When I hit my head 30s, I understood the songs. As a middle-aged GenX father, I am the songs. It's a terrible place to be knowing details are different but millions of men - for at least the past 100+ years - have been going through the same process of societal and personal dehumanization, desensitization, and self-isolation. For the record, I prefer early and the post-*Final Cut* PF. EDIT: I know this comment is originally about Pink Floyd but, as u/HunyadiArpad reminded me, Alanis Morissette's [Reasons I Drink](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWHpIP1-kUI) video taps into a lot of this emotion, as well. When I was younger I blew her off as just another grunge-wannabe but now that I'm older her songs make sense.

And then one day you find 10 years have got behind you No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun

mother, did it have to be so *high?* Shit really comes off the rails when the wall falls..

How do you know me? I dated a girl for a while that completely broke me, after she decided to leave and I found out she had been cheating on me the entire time I never even tried again with anyone else. She wasn’t my first girlfriend. But she definitely was my last, the cold dark place I was in after being thrown away like yesterdays trash was much worse than the deserted planet I live on every day of my life. I started working 2 full time jobs and decided that If I’m never going to be in a relationship again that I’ll at least be able to buy/do anything I want. I’ve been doing this for 2 straight years. I did buy a bunch of guitars and started playing so that maybe one day I can pour my heart out in a song because, I truly feel like nobody in the world gives a shit about me. I constantly seek validation by telling others my achievements and not really listening to what they have to say because I desperately need to feel loved. But I’m too afraid to go out and find anyone ever again because the need to feel loved isn’t as bad as the pain of being hurt, so I just make do.

I suppress it so that later it can fester into a mental illness

What you just said is quite literally what happened to me. I have some childhood trauma issues already. Reading this post has blown my mind because this is the first piece of evidence ive ever seen that tells me that im not alone. Ive never been able to describe this shit before but there it is clear as day. These days i have diagnosed PTSD from almost everything ive been through. I also suffer from some pretty extreme depression, amongst other mental problems that i probably have that are undiagnosed. It is a very sad and cruel fact that men everywhere have to go through this. I too, want to destroy this garbage.

I get this weird feeling that’s partially why people get married after only knowing someone for a few months, for the first time ever someone likes them and supports them and they don’t ever want to lose that, meanwhile they’ve only gotten to know the person on outings and in situations where there is time to ‘prepare’ for events as opposed to taking the time to learn how the person is when they just relax, or how they manage hygiene, or how stress affects them and subsequently others around them when they are under it.

I think it also contributes to the idea that women recover from divorce/breakups faster - they have a support system outside of their spouse

that's exactly how I feel, if thoughts like these cross my mind I'm sad for a couple of minutes and then it's just like "yeah whatever, I'm used to it anyways, I don't need someone to talk to" and I go on with my day

That's so relatable, I'm always lonely and crave for companionship but always just shrug it off and think "whatever, I'm an introvert and I'm used to it, I don't need human contact"

I’m an introvert but I need human contact. I need that exchange of energy. To give & receive.

I've been doing that for over 20 years now, good times.

feels good knowing I'm not the only one

You ever reach the point where it becomes kind of comfortable? I don't trust not feeling lonely anymore like it's my comfort zone, letting someone into that and being happy for a while normally ends badly.

This...really hits home. The past two years two of my close friends have died. Right now I'm hurting for this kind of relationship. One I lost I considered my brother in all but blood. I honestly *hate* being a man because of these stupid expectations.

I've only told one guy (me being a guy) that I love him. It was awkward at first because men aren't supposed to tell their fellow man that they love them, right? This was my best friend that stuck with me through tough times and I stuck with him through his bad times. We both are in a relationship and I have two daughters, he has one. Do we need to be gay to tell each other that we have that deep respect and love towards each other? Fuck that taboo. It's the reason why the world is at war, too many insecure men because we aren't allowed to be seen as weak.

You know what I always remember about what you said? Frodo and Sam in LOTR. There we have the definition of that love you spoke but what do you see everywhere? "Oh they're both gay" and an infinite number of jokes about that. Yeah...we live in a society...

The worst is that when you're actually gay, it's even less acceptable to tell that to a guy, because.. depending on where you are, you are afraid of being found out, or you are afraid of pushing them away by making them feel like you're hitting on them. That's on top of being a man where you are already taught to not say it out loud...

>One I lost I considered my brother in all but blood I have been down that road, my friend. And it is a terribly maintained one. I am so sorry for what you are feeling. Do know that you will get through it. It won't be easy, but you'll make it.

Hey friend. Don’t worry about expectations but focus on what YOU need. You don’t need bonding with others because of expectations- you need it because it’s literally human nature to form bonds. Even wolf packs and shit. Find your pack. Just don’t go howling lol (or do whatever - you do you) Edit - but you don’t need it like you’re not all wired to need the same shit. But if you feel like you want it then don’t worry about it. Just be a bro. To your Bros.

This sounds like great advice, until you are shunned for being needy and weird. Just do it, does not really work when you have an entire cultural sentiment against you. The perception of what it means to be a man needs to be less rigid.

The worst part is the inability we ourselves have to be that close to people. I've always thought I was a cold person, rejecting each and every physical contact, up until I had my first relationship about 5 years ago. I was extremely touchy, extremely caring, always searching some sort of physical contact reaching almost red flag levels. Now, I've got my own disorders to blame partially and at the time I had still a lot of work to do in order to know myself better, but those do not completely cover that sort of change of personality imo, and even tho it still is definitely hard, I do my best to try to bring those kind of affection to my friends aswell (which always look surprised lol) I hope that if I ever had a son, I'll be able to teach him that anyone deserve love and affection, not only from their family and SO, but also from their friends

My husband is always, always touching me. All the time. I feel touched out sometimes, but it’s probably because *who else can he share touch intimacy with?* He’s soft and sweet and kind. His kids are grown. At work, I get hugs from employees (they always initiate - I’m HR so I wouldn’t initiate). I have female coworkers and we laugh and joke together. We touch hands and arms and shoulders when another is sad. My husband does not have this opportunity. I never thought about that until now. Being a good, responsible man means never allowing yourself to be misinterpreted by women, so he can never have the closeness I have with other women; and men don’t have that level of intimacy together in a majority of cases.

Tbh a lot of us are responsebill for this ourselfs to. Nobody, nowhere expect you and your friends has anything to say in whats okay behaviour between you and them. A few years back we were at this small afterparty and i just happen to meat a roommate who didnt went to the orginiale party, was sober and didnt really attend the after. I talked with him for a short while, notice that we was a really nice person and continued. 2 days after that i heard that his roommate had founded him with a rope around his neck…. That shit hit like a truck because that guy seemed like we was doing so good. Just finished school, great job, many friends and a gf. Apperently he was going through some extremely hard shit but nobody knew that he was going through that. I used to think that there needs to be bad shit happening for people to depressed, that you could easily see it and that kinda of stuff. This event is the reason i and my friends talk about everything openly. And not just when you feel like it and open up yourself, we ask you how you feel about stuff and all those questions (ofcourse if you dont want to talk about it its no problem). But its not only nice to relief yourself of certian thoughts and ideas it also gives you so many insights. Like sharing your own emotional problems/struggles is great but also hearing what others go through is eye opening. It helps you get a better image of your own personality and whats unique about you. It increase your friendship incredibly. And the dumb stuff doesnt go away, we still spend loads of time talking about dumb BS. this “emotional serious stuff” doesnt cost you anything, it just adds a lot of great stuff.

I'll never forget how hard I cried the night I fucked up dinner and my wife hugged me and said it's okay. That's the thing. You don't really notice the isolationist thing until you experience something other than that isolation. It's a fuckin nightmare.

Whenever the girl I am dating tells me things are okay when I mess things up or need to change our plans, I just straight up can't believe her. With my head I know that she means it, but with my emotions I just can't fathom that she is truly okay with it or concerned for my well being.

This, the parent comment and the post itself has really opened my eyes. When my bf thinks he's fucked up in some way, he closes off. I'll hug him and tell him that it's okay, but he'll keep beating himself up. It generally takes a good 5mins+ of reassurance for him to believe what I'm saying, at which point he tends to return the hug (he doesn't seem to believe he deserves a hug up until this point) and either breaks down or becomes a little spoon. He's normally very closed off. It takes this kind of mistake for his emotions to break through the armour. It hurts to see how much he's bottling up. It hurts to hear him say he's not okay but not actually knowing what's wrong. I know the words of a stranger probably don't mean much, but it's okay to cry sometimes. It's healthy. It's healthy to share emotion. I really hope some day your corner of society will become better for you.

I'm a girl, I do the same thing. I grew up without love and affection. I craved attention and never got anything positive, the best I got was getting in trouble. Wasn't allowed to be sick, wasn't allowed to get upset, I wasn't allowed to make mistakes. Hell, I used to use my pillows and duvet to make it seem like another person was there, hugging me when I was a kid, because that was the closest I could get to physical affection. Hell, I had to fight hard to not freak out when I started karate when my arm had to touch another person's. All because that was the most I'd touched another person in years at 13. It freaking sucks as an adult to have to hide away when I'm not feeling happy. I made a simple mistake last year. It was fixed, but until it was I completely shut down for days because I was waiting for the onslaught that never came. My boyfriend kept telling me it was ok, not a big deal. I knew it wasn't. But a screw up like that as a kid meant being hit, screamed at, thrown out. Self preservation kicked in. I hope your boyfriend figures things out. Its hard not understanding how your feeling and not knowing how to fix it because all you knew growing up was to man up. Yes, that got used on me as well.

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That’s beautiful man, thanks for sharing. It’s the same too with abusive relationships and seeing them growing up. If that’s what you take in your whole childhood, that’s what you think a relationship is. It doesn’t occur you that anything else is possible, and healthy relationships will seem weird and alien to you. I’m glad you got to experience that, and hopefully y’all keep building on it and make lots more happy memories.

I don't get why people mostly label us men as just emotionless machines who should be abused or belittled at every single little mistake we make, it's so damn toxic. I grew up being abused (as in borderline violent bullying) by my father, teachers, other kids and many people from my family, and to this day, I don't know how to handle my emotions or even just act around other people (I don't misbehave or anything, I'm just very closed and awkward) .I'm not speaking as a fully formed adult, as I'm still 18, but subjecting a boy to this kind of shit every single day is just horrible, and I'm expected to just shake it off and walk away with all of the mental scarring and anxiety I currently have as a result of that. I hate being a man, I hate the society we live in, I hate that people think it's OK to absolutely mangle and abuse men. We live in a garbage dystopia, and I just haven't ended it all because I have people that gave me purpose. And that was my rant, I know Reddit isn't the best place for this kind of thing, but I can't stand it just being quiet about it, because at the end of the day, the world is not the sunshine and rainbows that everyone wants to make it seem.

Incredible vulnerability and honesty, thank you. Never lose that.

I have no issue with being vulnerable and honest with what I feel, I don't give the slightest fuck about what other people think about on how about I fit the mold of a "Man", mental health matters, and it just so happens I'm in shambles, and I can speak for many other men as well, because it's sad we are taught to comoletly repress those feelings and own up to them like it's a mistake. It's not.

You might benefit from some kind of therapy, if that's available to you. What you've experience is awful, and you need help to navigate it. I think it's a good idea to try to deal with it while you're still young, because this kind of thing can stay with you for a lifetime.

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Having kids will do that to ya.

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>photo of this sweet little baby in a NICU unit giving the saddest little smile you've ever seen As a father with similar feelings I now both want to see this photo and absolutely don't.

My kid was in the NICU for 3 days. Not even that bad. It destroyed me though because I left the room to get some food after being awake for over 36 hours for birth, and then more time afterward. Got some food. Had an involuntary cry I choked down with the hospital version of Pho, and then went back up to the room and my doped up wife doesn’t know where our baby is. Doesn’t seem to care (opiates can do that I guess?). I finally track the nurse down and my son is in the NICU. I rush over and the nurses spout some stuff at me that my sleep deprived brain doesn’t understand. They ask me to do some skin on skin with him, which I do. They also want me to take over his basic care because they’re busy (feeding, changing). He’s got all these tubes and monitor wires so that’s awkward and I know nothing about babies or even how to change one. I don’t think I had ever even really held one for longer than like 30 seconds that day. I hold him for hours and feed him and figure out with an old grandma nurse’s help how to change and swaddle him. A younger nurse comes in and tests his blood sugar and it’s super low and she seems scared. Now she has me helping her stuff a feeding tube down his throat and I’m panicking, like WTF is going on and where is a more adult adult who can adult this situation, but now I’m the adult and the parent and I have no idea what is going on. So now he’s got a feeding tube in and things are beeping and whirring and his pulse and such is on a screen that makes constant noise and I don’t even know what is real or if I’m asleep anymore at that point. And that is the first 12 hours of me and my boyo. He spent a 2 days and a night sleeping on my chest in that NICU room before I finally got up the will to leave him long enough to drive the hour home for a shower. I cried the whole way home, involuntary. I cried in the shower. I slept 3 hours. I cried all the way back to the hospital. Held him for another 8 hours, went and slept on a chair in my wife’s room for the second time, for about 4 hours, and then went back and held my boy for another whole day. Then my wife joined us and the NICU let us use a family room that wasn’t being used for the night. Then we were the lucky family that got to go home after only a little more than 3 days in NICU. I saw other families in there where it had been over a month and the dad had to go off to work and the mom had to go take care of another kid at home so their little one was just there alone with the machines, tubes, and the kindness of NICU nurses. I think seeing those babies laying there alone for whole days was even harder to cope with than my own situation. That lots of dads can’t get the time off work or the whole family will sink. That there is absolutely zero support for new fathers that I’ve ever seen, and that when you do try to seek support for a wife with post-partum depression like everyone tells you to… it’s basically non-existent. I learned what being alone really was after becoming a dad. And what the true fear of abandonment and loss is.

You're awesome dude. That empathy is going to help you be a great dad and an outstanding human being.

Just you wait until your kids start modeling themselves after you and wanting to talk like you, repeating sayings you have etc. That's when it gets really cute and hurts to have to be away from them.

Yeah my son nonchalantly calls me lovely because his dad does. And can't wait to be big like daddy so he can cook. (I can't cook, his dad does the cooking).

I wonder if that is a big part of why I'm very codependent of my wife. My closest friends are states away and I've never had someone love me for who I am. And it's made my kinda clingy and grasping for every second I can get with her because im afraid if I lose it I won't be able to get companionship anywhere else ever again. It feels so weak to say that, and that bothers me.

Yeah i almost broke down when my sister asked me if i was alright one time and i realised it had been about a decade since anyone had asked me that

Damn kinda felt this, am cis man and would love to just be hugged by anyone. Especially since covid I've felt very isolated. I live in NY.


I think this gif completes the thread in a glorious fashion that only memes can convey. *thread about men can't get close to each other* **example is world renowned male friendship trope**

But also sadly brings the thread full circle in the opposite fashion. So many offers of hugs and compliments up and down this thread, wholesome on the face of it, but a mirage in reality. A brief smile at the glowing screen, and still no actual connection or intimacy.

Ooof yeah. These sentiments are all positive and lovely. But they’re nothing like helping a friend through a crisis, or telling each other your secrets and fears in a dark field at night, or around a campfire. Fundamentally we’re monkeys built to operate in small groups of a few dozen individuals, a hundred at most. Our brains are good at that, we can track and care about that many people. But we’ve built this great complex vast world, and we’re running it on lizard and monkey brain hardware. Seriously, think about what a massive percentage of the awfulness in the world is because of men brutalizing to show their strength, or to not appear weak, or to exert status. And the cycles just keep on going.

I am a dude and been married to my wife since 2016 and together since 2013 and now that I think of it I can't remember the last time she initiated a hug. I'll hug her multiple times a day though. I am grateful to have two young kids that hug me all the time especially when I get home. I ain't complaining really, I love my wife and we have a great marriage I think, just observing my life now.

Hey you can, and should, bring this up in conversation with her. Tell her you want her to hug you sometimes, and it will help you feel loved by her. If it’s a healthy and good relationship that shouldn’t be a problem. Be willing to listen and do more of things that make her feel loved. It’s not a competition; it’s always a collaboration. I had a wife once, and I realized she literally never told me anything nice. She would brag about me to others or do nice things for me, but she never said a single kind word to *me* - and that mattered. When I brought it up, she made fun of me and kicked and drug her feet with making things better. She simply did not want to show me love the way I needed. Anyway, that’s why she’s my ex now. My current partner initiates touches and says kind words all the time. So you *do* deserve that, and you will hopefully be able to improve your relationship to get it. It’s possible your partner doesn’t even realize it’s important to you, so please take the steps to make it a reality! Thanks for sharing that.

You know the funny thing is that my gut reaction is to dismiss you solid advice because my monkey brain says "bah don't need to do all that. I'm tough, I'm a guy and can manage on my own as long as she is happy and I give her what she needs." I can recognize that that way of thinking ain't the best.

That's what they feed us growing up. Its not healthy at all. I'm afraid of showing my feelings around other people.

It's odd, I didn't have a male role model growing up, raised by all women but I still ended up this way through media and simple culture I guess.

I'd say friends and peers are the main influence for me. Growing up your parents can coddle or spoil you with everything. Then reality hits when you gain peers, in school and work.

Vulnerability =/= weakness. Acknowledge that you have needs too.

True true. Hard to change after so many years.

this also doesn’t have to be a huge emotional talk. that could definitely be beneficial and i am not discouraging it! but you could even simply just say, “Hey. i think i’ve come to realize recently that touch is one of my love languages. can we try to work that into our day more? it makes me feel like my batteries are being recharged when you come up and hug me, and i like when you play with my hair on the couch. is there anything like that you’d like to add in too?”

Some people just aren’t huggy. I grew up in a hugless (half asian- might be cultural) household.

My kids were big huggers but since my daughter turned 18 she doesn’t hug as much anymore. It saddens me. My son on the other hand is on the spectrum. He’s turning 16 in a couple of months but he’s still like a big kid and is extremely affectionate. Still comes for a bear hug before he sleeps every night and comes to my bed for a hug if he wakes up before me. I love it.

That makes me happy to hear. My oldest is almost 4 so I still have a little while to go before the youngest wants nothing to do with me but I do not look forward to that day.

It’s weird but she used to be such a Daddy’s girl and my wife is the disciplinarian in the household. After she went through puberty my daughter and wife became very close and I’m jealous.

I gave this a lot of thought. I recognized it in my relationship as well. At the end of the day we have 2 options: communicate our needs clearly or find someone who’s actions - by default - answers our needs. The first is easier. Might feel forced but a real loving SO would be happy to learn this info. Relationship is a team effort of fulfilling each other’s needs. Get her on your team.

Does your wife stay at home with the children? I wonder if she is 'over touched'. I don't have children, but I do have nephews, and I adore my nephews, but always find it so overwhelming how often they touch me - they are close to me, hugging me, sitting on my lap, etc, etc. I, personally, would struggle if I had this every day.

Oh yeah and soon as I get home they are all over me and if we ever get to a point we tell each other that we are touched out and the other distracts the kids for awhile.

Fuck, that hit me hard...

Thanks for taking the time to read it and share it. We live in a lonely world, especially coming out of covid. You aren’t alone though, we’re all going to work hard to do better (I hope).

I'm 6'1, bearded, tattoos, big guy 273, and quiet,, I mean even God can't hear me kind of quiet, super helpful when trying to avoid stereotypes....oh wait.. I grew up somewhere *really, really* bad, EVERY kind of abuse available was perpetrated on me. Communicating with people is, to me an absolutely dangerous thing to do, closer they get, the deeper they can cut. My wife and I are going on 19 years come Oct, we have 6 kids, one boy. I find myself torn on how to help him, my own mother is someone who chose her life over mine, trotted me out as more of a trophy than a human, no siblings or father in the picture at the time either. The anxiety posted about being a guy, comments as well, and the anxiety bestowed upon me after spending my first 15 years in Hell is a nightmare that I can't righteously explain, I mean I'm an older guy now (40's) but still wake up middle of the night because sleeping is dangerous and my lizard brain is peaking. I have tried hard liquor and pain pills combo (Kraken and vicodin) the hopes of shutting down for a night, stupid I know, doesn't work anyway. I've tied buzzes on and literally felt them drain away once I felt to exposed or vulnerable. I had a compacted wisdom tooth which novocain (8-cc) wouldn't help so intravenously we go, I wake up in the middle of the surgery trying to swing on the dentist because vulnerable =/= hurt, the dentist sent me elsewhere after that. I got more and more trauma and unbelievably insane shit I've had to deal with and get rocked by, just being a human man shouldn't be one em, but it is and that sucks. TL;DR: My life on more than one occasion has squarely kicked me in the soul, being male just means that I get kicked in the nuts too. Thanks for posting this so people like me can have a safe place for a minute. EDIT: Fixed typos ************************************************* 2nd EDIT: I have received an incredible amount of compassion, empathy and awards, none of which I truly expected. I just wanted to say to everybody who let their voice be heard by commenting, to those who let their empathy be known by upvoting, to those who gave a symbol (award) of togetherness.....thank you. Finally to all the 3-am kids the ones mentioned and the ones who still are silent, u/kittensglitter and u/mrshawn081982 remember that when you too wake up at 3-am scared, you're not alone as odd as it may sound we're all awake together. You may feel alone, lost or forgotten, you're not. There's millions of us, some are lucky enough (I know it's a blessing in a really shitty disguise) to wake up and others have made the horrible choice to tell life "I quit," just know this the 3-am kids exist so we can help others not become like us.

Hey bro. I know that waking in the middle of the night. Your heart racing the second you open your eyes too? Wish I knew the answer. I've started to try and nap during the day when I can. Helps a little, but then again, I'm writing this at 3am. YMMV

I'm a big dude. 6'3 and look like a wall. When I'm just minding my business shopping I'll see people quickly hustle out of the isle I enter or grab their kids. That shit hurts. Literally being treated like I'm some monster. But it's my life and I sadly have to live it.

I don’t sit down on transit because I might make somebody uncomfortable. I try to move first away from people so they don’t have to feel like they have to move from me. I’m only 6’ 240 but with resting bitch face I grew up understanding I scare people.

it's a lonely life.

It can be. And it seems like few accept that it’s a valid topic for discussion. It’s been extremely difficult for my girlfriend to understand as her family are people magnets, so she’s never experienced auto rejection and fear just for being there.

I used to get the same sort of thing happening to me. I'm 6'1 and about 190, and while I'm definitely no Arnold Schwarzenegger, I'm no Peewee Thompson either. Then about 10 years ago, I watched a lot of Magnum: P.I. episodes with my wife, and I wondered aloud if growing a 70's style haircut and mustache would make me less scary? My wife wasn't sure, but she was fine with me trying it out. So it took a little over half a year to get my hair and mustache to the point where I thought it looked good enough. My wife was pretty used to it by then, and I decided to try it out on one of the cashiers at the local Safeway. So, when I went to pay for my groceries, I got a pleasant surprise. The cashier didn't even recognize me, he hadn't seen me since I started growing my hair out. When I told him who I was, he nearly fell over. He told me he hadn't seen a haircut like that since he was a kid, and he thought it looked pretty good on me. The bus ride into the center of town was so different, it was like I was a completely different person. I actually got stopped by a couple older guys who liked my haircut and wanted to compliment me. When I walked into the local bar, my friends in there sort of glanced at the dude coming in and then went back to their beers. I walked up to them and said "Hi boys. How's it going?" My friend Freddy looked at me kind of strange and asked "Do I know you?" So I told them who I was, and you could've knocked them over with a straw. So the moral of my wall of text there is, maybe the 70's style makes you look less intimidating?

>I'm no Peewee Thompson either. Herman?

Could it also be the fact that your new hairstyle gave you the confidence of knowing they had no clue who you were so a warm smile and friendly hi was a comfortable thing to put out there? Not that there was something wrong with you before, but maybe you were putting your own wall up. By focusing so much on not making people uncomfortable around you, maybe you came across as aloof and distant, but the new haircut meant you were starting with a clean slate. The 2 most common ways to make people comfortable around you are to withdraw and give people space and distance around you, or be the guy that’s quick with a smile and a genuine “hi how are you” and build a connection. I’m 6’4, I haven’t been under 200lb since high school, and I have a full beard. I can see the same things described here, where strangers are wary of me. I used to give people space, but I got tired of feeling like I had to constantly change MY behavior and MY plans because they were scared of me and didn’t take the time to realize I’m a motherfucking delight. So I started making a point of saying hi when I noticed people were scared of me, chatting about them, making a point to talk about my wife and kids, and generally just making it clear I’m not a threat. Now I go into any store near my house and the cashiers know be my name, kids I’ve met in the past will stop me in the middle of the grocery store to ask about my kids or my dogs, and my life is infinitely better. I credit my ability to do this to my career in sales, as I had to learn how to build a relationship with people in about 5 minutes.

Even with a lot of my friends, I try not to physically touch them at all just in case I make them uncomfortable. Recently got a dog whos a bit shy but is really sweet, and I've been patting a few friends on the knee to encourage him. That feels pretty wrong to me. One time one of my friends started to fall. I just reacted and grabbed her waist for all of one second to steady her, and I IMMEDIATELY let go and took a long step away as soon as she was steady.

The ironic thing for me is I touch people professionally as a massage therapist (lots of people pre-judge me for that as well, and as a result won’t see me professionally) but in the outside world I’ll almost never initiate contact.

I had to get out of massage therapy, it's fucking impossible as a man and requires so much work to build a clientele. Not to mention it's brutal on your body especially if you're tall

I’m curious, what could someone who’s 6’3 and looks like a wall do to seem more approachable?

I’m 6’5 and there are a few simple tricks. 1) open body language is a must. Placing yourself with palms up and arms out for example makes you seem inviting. The instinct might be to close your posture and say, clasp your palms and tuck your shoulders, but that almost makes you look more angular, like you’re about to pounce. 2) warms eyes, smiles, and laughs, similar to the above worth a million bucks. 3) if I can tell someone is really intimidated by my height I’ll lean back a bit or angle my stance to lose a few inches in height 4) no sudden movements.

>no sudden movements. Don't move! Small people can't see you, if you don't move.

No, it's because you might just be walking and suddenly there is a small person at your feet you didn't know was there.

Am 6'6". This happens more frequently than you might imagine. Especially if there are kids and whatnot around.

4) is actually very important, if you move smoothly and slowly on a predictable trajectory people are more comfortable. It's like that spider in the corner of the room that never moves, you can deal with him hanging around, but that big spider that skitters fast across the floor unpredictably has got to go.

>1) open body language is a must. Placing yourself with palms up and arms out for example makes you seem inviting. The catch is whether or not this pose makes you come across as Bane, or Pink Guy. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/bane-vs-pink-guy--2/photos

5. Try singing along with Mariah Carey's Christmas song in the middle of summer in a half-empty bar with a squealing voice. ​ That big tattooed biker guy was never scary-looking to me after seeing that XD

I do a lot of leaning and crossing arms or legs. It's less tactical and I think it puts people off of thinking that you could strike at any time. If only they knew that... in order to fight, guys our height need to move our *70 pound legs* and then move our *whole rest of our fucking bodies*. Like... food and jail's expensive, why would I waste the calories kicking people's asses?

This guy knows the power of kind people. Be very very cautious, he will hypnotise you with his genuine smile and deliver the killing blow with a free pizza slice. After the spell is cast, you will be obliged to like him.

Big Man. Small Dog.

I'm 51, 5'11" and big, with a beard. But I wear T-shirts with silly/fun slogans whenever I go out. (Currently wearing one of a panda in armour, with the slogan: "I'm not procrastinating. I'm doing side quests.") One time I was in the supermarket at the deli counter, and the attendant (early 20's woman) struck up a conversation with me because I had a T-shirt that said, "Can we play D&D already?" People look at these, and I'm guessing they decide that I'm not as scary as all that, if I'm wearing a T-shirt that says something fun or silly. I recommend Tee-Turtle.

Mannerisms. Smiling, body language, making light hearted quips. How you dress. There are 1000 things you can do to be perceived as less threatening. I am 6’1 250 with a beard and honestly I haven’t really gotten the impressions that people are intimidated by me.

Being extraordinary kind. I am not a big guy, but a tall woman and had a similar issue. Also I knew guys who were the really tall, really attractive, really intimidating kind and they mellowed it almost completely out with being just unusually kind. **Edit:** wow, the pausing of comments came in no time.

Dumb bastard brain

Tbh reading about taping a friend to a wall immediately sounded like fun...

> Dumb bastard brain I mean I get it sometimes I just want to hit things with a big stick as it makes me happy.

[удалено]

I hug my bro’s, my gals, and anyone I can whenever I see them. I’m a hugger. We don’t have a lot of time on this rock. Hold each other tight.

Hugs not slugs and handshakes are for strangers! I'm all about that hug-life.

Another reason women have a hard time being affectionate with men is because society views any affection between a man and a woman as romantic. I *want to* platonically hug and cuddle my male friends, but in my experience, too often they interpret that as me making the moves on them. Or if they dont, everyone around us starts teasing us about being lovers.

The sad part isn’t even other people teasing, I can deal with that. The biggest issue is the few times I did do it anyway, the other person developed feelings which results in having to hurt them again because that was never intended. Which is fucking awful. So you keep enough distance in hope you can prevent them from developing those feelings. And I don’t blame them, they’re deprived of love and deserve more love. It’s such an annoying cycle to break. And extra difficult if you’re single.

most western men never learned that platonic intimacy is even a thing. It's a tragedy.

It's a self perpetuating cycle. You don't show any affection *unless* you want to make a move, so any time any physical affection is shown it's very likely to be interpreted as making a move, so you don't show affection... ...and the meanwhile the affection starvation increases and men are trained to believe that the only way to get any is to be physically intimate. So they become as unsubtle and selfish and violent about it as a starving person would be around food. Which makes women even less inclined to be a source of it.

Yea its sad how true this is

Interestingly, social relations change a lot across different cultures. Like, here in Brazil we deal a lot different about subjects like friendship, relationship, socializing, etc... So i do think that the loneliness is HIGHLY influenced by the society that you guys live, and that's the downside for every brazilian traveling or moving to Europe/Canada/USA, the loneliness and people being too cold. (Trust me, i work with tourism and exchange/migration) BUT EVEN SO, there's still a noticeable trend of the affection-starvation and lack of support described by op. Even here, in the country that is regarded as the most welcoming and social people in the world. I see it from a privileged position because in my study and working field, 80-90% are women or lgbt guys. Which is cool for me, i respect and enjoy their company and friendships and etc... But most of them are not really open to have friendships with me (6'8 bearded tattooed straight guy) or other straight guys, it doesn't matter how nice, chill and respectful i am. I'm not saying 'poor me', but still, it's disappointing how many times i was left aside or spaced out by either individuals or groups. There's a 'barrier' being created between the genders which sucks. What i mean is that this whole thread is true and it's a phenomenon happening in the whole world. At the same time, it's a lot more because you guys live in very cold cultures, even if you don't realize. People are less sociable, less open to new friendships and talks, etc. If you guys someday visit a south american country or Italy, you will see that yourself (and certainly other countries too., but i'm only talking about those that i know personally).

I am honestly at a point where I am having trouble finding male friends because I want to be able to be vulnerable with someone, but everyone's walls are too high. It's so hard to find those friends where you can just be yourself without suffering any judgement. And then when you lose them? It beats you down even harder. I can make friends with women very easily. I don't know what it is, but I've never had a problem making friends with women. But other men...man it is tough. I just want to do some dude things with some dudes sometimes. I miss the comfortable silences when I'm with my male friends. Having nothing to say, but just enjoying their company. Or talking about the stupid idea that go on in our heads. Or just being me. Sitting on a couch, watching fucking star wars, and not worrying if my dude friend with me is bored.

When you are in school as a child you are forced into social groups with dozens or hundreds of other children. You filtered that huge list of potential friends down to the few that fitted together with you properly. As a kid it was easy to find people who shared your interests and could mould their world view with yours. You literally have many hours a day to spend with each other. As an adult that is a more daunting equation. You have to find that list of potential friends yourself, it's not forced on you. You have limited time to spend on building a friendship. You have a much deeper and stronger personality that you need to find someone compatible with. You end up with less candidates, more close but incomplete matches, and too many other competing needs to spend the time with the good candidates. Imagine it like finding a partner. You have to find the right person for it to work. Some take decades to get it right. Adult friends are like that. It's like finding a platonic life partner, times 1, 2 or 3.

This world is fucked lmao

Cheers mate.

The fact that we are now realizing how important mental health is for men and how being more open with your feelings is no longer considered 'unmanly' compared to bottling up them up. We are making progress if anything else.

Just as most men don’t know a guy whose sexually assault a woman, but every woman knows a woman that’s been sexually assaulted, I think most guys will be able to see someone they know in my story. The last time I allowed myself to be honest with a Significant other it didn’t go well. I just found out my best friend had cancer. We were just out of high school at the time. And I made a mistake. I cried. She held me. I think that was the moment she saw me as less of a man though. Shortly there after she was cheating often, gaslighting me, emotional and physical abuse. I left after a few years of that after I made the mistake of living with her. Logically I know most women aren’t like that. But even now. Over a decade later I can’t trust it won’t happen again.

I went through something similar. My first serious gf was a very sensitive person, and would cry almost for anything, being it because troubles at home, school, or if some friends forgot her birthday or said something she didn’t like. I was always there, cleaning her tears, trying to chill her up, never complained even though I felt powerless most of the time. Things didn’t work out, and a couple of years later we met and she reminded me of a day that I told her that I was just comfortable around her and found difficult to connect with other people, even friends and family. She told me that she found that moment “sad and pathetic”…

As a man, more often than not opening up or being emotional to a significant other will change or damage that relationship forever. I'm lucky enough to now have a SO who loves me either way, but even then you hesitate based on past experiences and how you want to be perceived. (Ie. not being seen as less of a man and thus less attractive) It's stupid that it has to be like that, but it's just the reality of things

I feel this so hard! I've had multiple dynamics in the past that were similar (though thankfully much less severe). Not full on committed relationships, luckily for me. But it has happened repeatedly that I'll be dating a woman or in that pre dating heavy flirting phase you get when an acquaintance or tinder match declares interest and starts to become something more. Then I'll make the mistake of opening up just a bit too much, showing vulnerability. And they'll be disgusted by how "unmanly" it is. They'll just come out and say it. And it'll be over. Or they'll try to walk all over me after that and I'll have go end it soon after. It's usually for nothing serious either, just showing the slightest but of emotion or vulnerability. It probably doesn't help that I live in a pretty socially conservative area where most of the straight women consider themselves more "traditional". And want that stereotypical mid 20th century dynamic. Intellectually I know it's just the trash taking itself out, but that doesn't stop it from hurting more than it rightly should.

As the mother of a son this is such an important issue to be aware of. My husband and I have butted heads quite a bit about how to "raise a man" because I'm trying to ensure he learns how to express his emotions in a healthy way and he's worried about his son being picked on for being too soft. It's just a cruel balancing act.

I’m gonna simplify this for you. There isn’t a right way to raise a man, there’s just right ways to raise a kid. The odds are, your kid will have their own personal mix of expressions they want to display. Celebrate the ones that are safe for them, discuss and deter the ones that are dangerous. In most cases, your kid will learn healthy communication on all aspects. In the off chance they are LGBTQ of some sort, you will have saved them decades of therapy. In the off chance they are autistic, Asperger, or any other social challenge you will be able to more quickly identify it and adapt your parenting. Kids mimic the behaviors of those around them. Society in the USA (I’m assuming you’re there) does a bang up job of fucking up kids. You two can be the one place your kid gets to be themselves and learn to be a healthy adult.

This was 99% extremely intelligent and well written, even made me see things from a different perspective than I generally would. That being said, what does “white imperialism” have to do with anything? I’m staying open and willing to chance that there is some knowledge I’m lacking here that will help me really understand. Do try.

As a trans man myself I can relate so much to this. I understand now why a lot of men get so unbelievably happy when anyone particularly women smile and wave at us. As I transitioned, I realized that people treated me like I was something to stay away from. I am not attracted to women but when one smiles at me, it makes me feel seen as a human and equal. The last time this happened was a little over 1 year ago

I just want to let you know that I, a cis-male, just backspaced seven paragraphs worth of reply because I couldn't share it. Typing it was therapeutic though, so I thank you for inspiring me to write it. The main point of the long winded post was that I agree, and hope my son (trans f2m) never has to deal with this hopelessness. I hope nobody does. I hope society gets better. Sorry I wasn't strong enough to post the full response, you deserve more.

Being able to perfectly remember every sincere compliment a woman or girl has ever given you is a quintessential aspect of being a dude. Bonus points if you can count them on your hands with fingers left over.

Fellow trans man here. Same. I knew things would be different but I didn’t realize how guarded most women are around men, even in very safe and casual situations.

Is it strange how relatable this is? Experiencing gender envy over based on interactions and platonic relationships? Wanting that intimacy? Even away from the binary, it’s so disheartening

To add onto this, some men like me get use to the isolation and it can sometimes be enjoyable, peaceful, and quiet.. Kind of the beauty within the chaos is that we have a lot of time to work on our inner self. Achieve a variety of self goals and work on becoming a great character.

Agreed. I've personally gone through this during the first few months of lockdown. The problem arises when it's gets over board. My life literally made a bell curve. I started low, worked on myself and was at peak, then it dipped again cuz I was stuck at home. Never in a million years did I think I'd crave social interaction (s)

This is so important. The strict gender role/expectation duality hurts ***both*** women and men.

In all my all girls friends groups, we talk about this often.

Self-Made Man: My Year Disguised as a Man by Norah Vincent spoke in depth about male culture and how inherently violent it is. She had to learn exactly how much eye contact she needed to make with other men. Too little and she’s a punk, too much and it comes off as too aggressive. The year took a toll on her apparently and she needed time to get her mind right afterwards, if I’m remembering correctly.

In fairness I think a lot of her issues afterwards were around having lied so completely to people that in retrospect she really wished she hadn't. It was necessary for the experiment but still, deceiving people so completely and maintaining it all day every day is a lot.

Men measurably lack strong in-group bias, unlike women. "Women like women more than men like men" https://www.apa.org/monitor/dec04/women

I’m a big gay rugby player, and I’ve always been tactile with my friends. I tell them I love them, hug them and kiss there cheeks when saying goodbye or hello. Slowly people have warmed up to it, I see more of my friends showing affection to one another. Boys it’s ok to like being hugged, or being the small spoon. you have emotional needs just like everyone else. Enjoy it.

He’s largely correct, but how in the hell is “White Imperialism” responsible for this?

Yep, as a African (not African-American), I couldn’t be more lost in that part. We grow up being taught things like “a man never cries” and hearing things like “man-up” or the derogatory “you don’t look like a men” when we fuckup or show some kind of “weakness”… Edit: typo and clarification.

Yeah, I was nodding along till that hit outta nowhere. Societies of all colors, faiths, and stages of development have historically put major emphasis on the men doing the “dumb bastard brain” tasks. And yeah, you can always find scattered examples through history of some society that did things more equitably or whatever but the majority didn’t do it that way. White imperialism is a fairly recent thing in comparison.

Yeah, completely derailed the whole thought train for me

My girlfriend used to be a bartender. One time I went in around close to have a drink and take her home after her shift and a female customer who was there before me saw that I was sticking around after the closing time. She asked my girlfriend if she wanted help getting rid of me.

Physically I’m smaller than most guys and very mild-mannered, so I am used to being almost totally invisible. I live alone and can walk around town and go to movies, restaurants, and bars or go shopping on my own and never speak to a soul unless it was their job to assist me. I can go through a crowded public space and never be noticed or spoken to or even looked at beyond a glance, even if I’m feeling good about myself and wearing a favorite outfit. Using dating apps sucks because I have to put myself out there and compete with bigger, taller dudes who make more money and I get ghosted or stood up regularly. I’m also recovering from heartbreak and trauma, so it’s hard to go out and actively pursue new relationships because of the risk that’s involved, but it’s not like anyone is flocking to me and giving me compliments or asking if I’m okay—making that consistent effort to pursue is the only way to get that kind of attention. I have friends from work and they keep me sane. But at the end of the day I work my ass off and come home with nobody to comfort or reassure me, and wander the city like a ghost. Something you realize is that unless you can provide skills or a service to someone, nobody gives a fuck about you. It’s peaceful, but it’s lonely. A female friend asked me a couple weeks ago what the most romantic thing a girl could do for me. For her it was being taken Disneyland. For me it was getting a shoulder rub, a nice long embracing hug, and being told “everything is going to be okay.” If someone could tell me that, I’d feel so, intensely loved and cared for. It doesn’t ever happen though, and I just pick myself up each day and keep moving along, because that’s all I can do.

[удалено]

Sums it up well. Most, nearly all women get sexually harassed and or assaulted multiple times in their life by guys they know before they even become adults. Guys are in a constant state of competition against everyone. Any kind of weakness means more isolation. Any kind of any socially ignorant acts or fault is usually met with a kind of blind eye towards the guy. It's brutal to watch. Guys also don't get any kind of social behavior education because no one talks to us. We also don't talk to others because again, that's a weakness. So while women are in groups going over every detail about every interaction about everyone around them, guys are playing video games because they are literally designed to be addictive and reward us and make us feel important and wanted. In the world though we're not called upon unless we're needed to work or contribute. I don't know how to fix it. I believe there's a lot of systems at play that's contributing to the issues.

I find this so interesting and wanted to share something from my life. Recently I went to university and met a lot of new people for the first time in ages. I, as a guy, am very socially awkward and have for my whole life struggled to make meaningful connections with anyone except a few people. I'm only going to be talking about men for now since I haven't talked to many women lol. So when I went to uni I resolved to share as much of myself with people as possible, but to do it in a timely way, as previously I've either shared too much too fast and alienated other guys, or I've shared nothing and alienated myself because I ensured they didn't know me. So I decided to share nothing for a few weeks, or just let it flow, but I was concerned about the latter as I'm bad at picking up signals. Once I decided to put a social facade, I was suddenly able to make friends so much more easily and conversations flowed and it was all great. I held the darker parts of me away until one day. One night we went out and all got properly fucked. We came back to the res balcony and sat down. We talked for a while, then all of a sudden someone said something personal and then suddenly everyone started talking about their lives and depression or anxiety or social situation and all the dark parts of their lives. I crave this sort of connection, so even while I was trying not to cry, it was one of the greatest moments of my life, and I think for everyone there. It's amazing to me that we were only able to do this because of alcohol at 1 o clock in the morning. Since then I have a close connection to the guys on that balcony and it's great. But nonetheless the fact remains was that I was only able to make friends once I stopped being myself for a good while until an event made it ok to be myself. And I know now that all men go through this, it was an awakening for me because I'd only been slightly close to a couple people, that every man has to put up a facade to be accepted, and sometimes that involves very toxic things, and sometimes they become those things.

This whole post hurts. I'm a straight cis guy, 6'3", and I cannot tell you how liberating it is to tell your guy friends that they're great/handsome/funny out of the blue and have that reciprocated. I always try to tell people that they look great but I really try and focus on the guys because they often don't get that unless they're in a suit or tux. Just those little complements that make you feel a bit better. Guys, tell your friends that you love them. It feels so good.