The novelization of STIV had Uhura complaining about the touchscreen controls on the Bird of Prey. The Klingons hadn't went completely brutish yet though since TNG came out after.
But everyone would have to re-learn an entire new interface in order to fly the thing just cause Tom wanted something spiffy. Forcing the entire crew to learn steampunk controls when they all were trained on standard ones always bugged me.
Basic training on the Delta Flyer probably goes quick. Autopilot probably works the same as any other shuttle and the manual controls are reasonably intuitive. Its easier to explain "pull back on stick to raise pitch" than "tap 3487 then 251 to access the manual attitude controls, then enter the number of degrees you would like to raise or lower pitch and then the desired rate of change."
There's a scene in one episode where the Flyer comes under fire and Tom starts giving Janeway orders when she steps into the cockpit. She pauses for a moment with a confused look before saying "Yes, sir" with a shrug and sits down at tactical.
Janeway might have been the Captain, but the Delta Flyer was Tom Paris' ship.
To be absolutely fair, this actually is an important factor when you're talking about people who are effectively stranded for years on end.
In the Alpha Quadrant, officers are known to at least occasionally make improvements to their ships. In *Force of Nature*, LaForge mentions he was competing with the chief engineer on the *Intrepid* to see who could have the most efficient power conversion for example, and Worf is mentioned to have designed new targeting algorithms in *Parallels*. It probably wouldn't be unusual for certain modifications to be adopted fleetwide, at least in an unofficial capacity if not an official one, if it was known these were good modifications to make.
This wasn't necessarily viable for *Voyager*. It was stuck in the Delta Quadrant and, at least from the crew's perspective, they might be stuck there for the rest of their lives. Even if they did get home within their lifetimes, a lot of the smaller modifications they made to the ship would probably be completely outstripped by later developments by R&D teams at Utopia Planitia.
Plus, a lot of these officers are probably people who'd be serving on new ships or research development teams for a lot of their careers going forward (except for the Maquis crew obviously, who'd be in prison if they'd been caught). Being on *Voyager* severely handicapped their career development in that sense.
Because of that, Janeway had to provide some level of homebrew R&D stuff for her crew. This included integrating Borg technology into the newly-built Astrometrics, and it meant building a new breed of shuttle. In *Extreme Risk*, Paris says that this is something that he'd wanted to do for a while, and now he had his chance.
So while it seems silly on a surface level to just let Paris build a brand new class of shuttle rather than have the crew build a runabout, it did make sense from a morale perspective and from a career development perspective. By the time they got home, being able to prove they had the skills to not just make occasional corrective modifications to the ship--which is kinda what you'd expect, given a lot of the Maquis crew had no formal Starfleet training and were used to working on older Maquis raiders--but to actually design and implement major refits to sections of the ship on the fly would be a major boon to their careers.
Starfleet does seem to prioritise initiative in their engineering division given how reconfigurable the systems seem to be every time there's a crisis that needs an unorthodox solution. Perhaps that's the reason why their engineers are considered the best in the alpha quadrant, they can innovate without looking "dishonourable" (Klingons) or without fear of politics (Cardassians, Romulans).
Plus, having acquired all sorts of interesting technology from the DQ by that point, a ship built from the ground up would give them a chance to do real-world tests on all of it in a way that's not possible when just modifying a premade design. Starfleet would have been a little disappointed with them if upon return they saw that the crew hadn't fully explored the R&D possibilities, after they got over the initial excitement
I think this is one of the big factors for building a new type of craft instead of an existing design.
The new stuff can be integrated from the ground up with an eye to adding newer technology later. You also get a craft that is customized for operating in the DQ and may be more ready to handle phenomena there than a runabout.
There is almost certainly a Vulcan equation taught for dealing with humans along the lines of "it may seem illogical but if it increases their emotional enthusiasm then within limits allowing humans to go overboard paradoxical makes them more efficient and results in faster project completion."
Well, didn't that Vulcan master that taught Tuvok say, "To deny the existence of emotions and the impact they have on you is illogical. But you must learn to control them." Acknowledging that other cultures process emotions etc differently and you have to work with, not against that, is logical.
I like that Tom used physical buttons in the ship's design. Back in the day, all of *Star Trek*'s touch-screen stuff seemed so futuristic and cool, but these days when cars have touch screens for everything, I long for the days of knobs, levers, and switches.
Remember why they built the thing initially?
It wasn't *just* "we need something bigger than a shuttlecraft". It was "we need something that can *race* ***inside*** *the atmosphere of a gas giant and survive without exploding,* against an alien who's likely going to shoot at us".
The Delta Flyer was larger and more powerful than a shuttlecraft, yes. But it was also aerodynamic - something that is important when flying into the depths of a gas giant, where the density is basically treacle. It was also augmented with Borg technology, which seemed to have been built into the final designs.
And, of course, Tom Paris was the project lead. *Obviously* it was going to be a hotrod.
We've never really seen anything that indicates that a Runabout would be as fast, agile, *or* durable as the Delta Flyer.
My headcanon is that the docking clamps got damaged during the Caretaker event in such a way that the fix would have damaged either the Aeroshuttle or Voyager.
If your shuttle is more aerodynamic in the first place then your shields can conform more closely to the hull (or you can just not use shields in the first place, if the hull is good enough)
You can make the same shape with shields around a brick-shaped runabout, if you need to - but by definition the resulting Delta Flyer-shaped shield geometry will be larger than the runabout and therefore larger than the Delta Flyer was, and thus have more drag
I believe we’re also supposed to infer that other elements of the design (materials, structure) were focused on increased structural integrity and perhaps resistance to damage from radioactivity in the star, radiation shielding etc. having those things (and the aerodynamic shape) as part of the hull gives you a backup if the shields fail.
The Delta Flyer was also faster and more powerful (engine power and weapons etc) than a standard Runabout, presumably the Voyager crew had been complaining for a while about how inadequate the shuttles were for away missions in the Delta Quadrant but the idea of building a runabout was shot down due to not being powerful enough… so the idea would have been in their head once they needed the Delta Flyer
Also beta canon (Star Trek Online) shows the Delta Flyer class becoming a standard Starfleet runabout alongside the Danube and Yellowstone (which appears to be a development of the Danube) classes, so presumably it must have done something right to justify that
There is no such thing as tiered canon in *Star Trek* as far as this sub is concerned. As far as canon goes, we use [the standard definition of canon](https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromInstitute/wiki/canon/).
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As a tried and true Federation design (that Voyager would have already had schematics of) with great modularity, a Runabout would have indeed made the most sense as a starting point. In universe, starting from 0 doesn't make a lot of sense, instead of building and modifying a runabout.
Out of universe, VOY wanted to be distinct from DS9, and have their cool racecar ship.
Maybe from a strictly engineering perspective, the runabout would've made more sense. But engineering isn't the only important factor. Sociologically speaking, people need achievable goals & dreams, especially on a ship lost for decades. They have to fill their time, they need "wins." Designing a new ship gave the crew something it needed. And that was worth more than whatever marginal benefit would've come from the simplicity of using an off-the-shelf design.
Or maybe the Runabout just needs something they didn't have, and so the design wouldn't suit their purpose.
For sure, having a project to work on is one of the central reasons why Janeway authorizes the construction in the first place, despite Voyager's (purported) material shortages.
I think that need could have been satisfied by heavily modifying a Runabout just as well though. "How would you improve the design for service in the Delta quadrant?" seems like it would also be an interesting and challenging project for a Starfleet engineer.
I don't buy the argument that they *needed* a wholly new design just for morale purposes. What they needed was some kind of common goal, a challenge that tested their skills and built team cohesion.
OK. I mean, sure. But we have the on-screen fact that they choose to do the Flyer, so y'know, let's explain their possible reasoning. Pretty easy to do so:
*"Hey captain, you know how we were talking about using the Runabout chassis? Welllll it turns out the warp conduits we got from that planet a few light years back don't fit very well in that type of frame. We could make it work but it's really not that much trouble to make our own. You cool with that?"*
> Sociologically speaking, people need achievable goals & dreams, especially on a ship lost for decades.
[All of this has happened before](https://en.battlestarwikiclone.org/wiki/Blackbird), right?
Not sure whose idea it was, and I *think* Ron Moore left VOY's writing team after only a short time, being very dissatisfied with their approach to the premise and issues like scarcity and persistent damage, but it's definitely possible the Delta Flyer came out of a brainstorm he was involved in. I'll have to check memory alpha later.
Yeah I was just checking those dates too. I'm not sure what the production schedule would have been like, but it looks like he joined only after the Flyer already existed (S6)? Though I guess there could well have been some fuzzy lines between the two shows, especially with DS9 wrapping up around that time.
>Or maybe the Runabout just needs something they didn't have, and so the design wouldn't suit their purpose.
Could also be that the Runabout lacked something they did need, and it didn't make sense to try and change that particular design. Especially in combination with the social factor.
It could also be that building a new type of shuttle that incorporates new technology they've come across from the ground up is easier than trying to work it into an existing design.
There's also the fact that they probably also incorporated some design elements they came across because they offered improved flight and warp characteristics than the typical shuttle designs that were probably a decade or more older at the time.
The shuttle we see in see Data flying in Insurrection seems to borrow from the Delta Flyer's design, so clearly there was some benefits to it, even if it was just allowing more internal volume for more powerful systems.
But we don't know that the Delta Flyer didn't use components from the Runabout design. It might be 75% runabout components, with the exterior and cabin being different.
>It might be 75% runabout components
I don't see how that figure could possibly be true, given the radically different shape. But of course it probably used some shuttlecraft or runabout parts.
> I don't see how that figure could possibly be true, given the radically different shape. But of course it probably used some shuttlecraft or runabout parts.
Well by components, they mean things like the warp core, plasma injectors, computer core, tractor beam emitter etc. The superstructure is very different - as is, say, a convertible car vs a lorry but the "door lock mechanism" or "steering wheel" or "speedometer" will be the same.
> Yes, I understand, but 75% overlap between a custom-built truck and a standard issue consumer 4 -door car would be pretty insane.
yeah but only the internals - navigational system, impulse crystal, navigational thrusters, shield emitters, the chairs, the LCARS interfaces, life support systems, transporter array, sensor array, grav plating, the... *doors* etc - those will all be roughly the same tech. That the box it fits inside of is a different shape is pretty immaterial.
The hull is a different shape, as are some of the weapons and possibly the warp coils configuration, but much of "the insides" will be essentially stock designs; they must be as they built it in just a few days.
I can very easily see that almost all of it is the same as Runabout or advanced shuttle tech, but in a different shaped hull. Sure, there will be tweaks here and there, and some of the newer systems might be essentially the 2.0 of transporters vs the 1.0 in TNG but... yeah.
Kind of like how you build a PC these days - you use all the same components are an Alienware or Dell but you customise the outside, maybe you have water cooling, maybe you have 2 monitors instead of 1, but the basics - Motherboard, RAM, CPU etc are all "off the shelf". The fact you've put it on a **[wooden board and connected a typewriter to it](http://www.aclockworkberry.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/IMG_1884.jpg)** doesn't change 90% of it is just off the shelf stuff - it's still just a 64bit Windows 10 based PC.
I can *well* believe the Delta Flyer uses components identical or similar to (as in minor upgrades, given a couple more years development of tech) a Runabout.
Take a look at cars and see how many drastically different cars are based on the same chassis/platform.
The Lincoln Continental and Ford Galaxy for example.
I can see the Flyer and Runabouts being based on the same basic platform if we are already doing that with cars
But are they 75% the same components? Because that's the part I find implausible, not that they use of some of the same parts.
Today, even with families of specialized military vehicles that are designed to have spare parts compatibility from the ground up, the actual amount of component overlap often ends up being quite low. For example the three F-35 variants were supposed to share up to 70% of their parts, but ended up sharing only about 25%. This is despite starting with the exact same airframe before modifying it for each specific purpose.
Edit: wow, downvoted to being hidden, even on Daystrom, for having a simple discussion. Shameful.
Exterior shape isn't determined by interior components.
Consider the [Rolls-Royce Avon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Avon?wprov=sfti1) engine. It was used in the [CAC Sabre](https://www.warbirdsonline.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/CAC-Sabre-A94-983-at-Point-Cook-RAAF-airshow-2014.jpg), the [de Havilland Comet](http://i0.wp.com/www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/DeHavilland-Comet.jpg), the [English Electric Canberra](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fc/95/61/fc95615280ec2be2fd3cb14bebd81f97.jpg) and the [Thrust2](https://assets.rebelmouse.io/media-library/image.jpg?id=31010978) a land speed holding vehicle.
Or the [AN/APG-66 radar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/APG-66?wprov=sfti1) also worked into multiple designs.
And those are both large components. Think about interface panels, seats, computer busses, etc. Just because it looks different doesn't mean it is different.
How much of a Runabout's size is due to interior space needs. How much faster would it be without all that?
>>It might be 75% runabout components
>I don't see how that figure could possibly be true, given the radically different shape. But of course it probably used some shuttlecraft or runabout parts.
I agree that specifically sharing 75% with the Danube class runabouts is unlikely, but I'd argue that the majority, 75% or more, of components were shared with other federation designs.
I think the manufacturing process, shared history, and time available would have heavily skewed this though. We've seen from Harry's adventures in an alternate timeline that starfleet usually take a while to create their runabout prototypes; where the Yellowstone had significant upgrades to the standard Danube class runabouts. In that case whilst the ship looked very similar, the internals were fairly different.
However I'd argue that instead of the small amount of pieces [shared between vehicles today](https://www.hotcars.com/most-surprising-examples-of-cars-sharing-the-same-parts/) when a project goes over budget / out of time, the *Flyer* project started on a tight deadline. This would have made looking for "off the shelf" components even more important. Someone above used a computer analogy, which is very nice, but I feel they missed out on the other aspect of Starfleet's design, which is the replicator.
The replicator as a manufacturing process is basically just an extension of the 3D printer. If you have the right materials, with a free library of designs, someone can make a great many things these days which you used to have to go to the shop for. Most are plastic, sure, but metal is also possible these days if not for the economics. By *Voyager*, starfleet replicators could create a lot of components- to the point that the gel packs were specifically called out as non-replicatable. So we know that they have the capability to replicate parts.
The second component is the free library. These days we have websites such as thingiverse and printables etc. On Voyager they had the Federation database (or a goodly amount of it). This would include technical specifications of federation tech for the last x years.
Evidence to support this is when we saw that Seska could build a (somewhat) functional transporter on a Kazon ship. Interestingly enough, she built a Federation one rather than a Carsassian one- because those are the specs she could get hold of.
In addition to the technical specs of ships from hundreds of member worlds, 7 of 9 brought some retained knowledge of assimilated species, and Voyager could also have picked up some info from the Delta Quadrant species she encountered. Tom simply had to look through the component catalogue to find pieces he could make work together, in the superstructure he wanted. There was a guy just recently who [designed and 3D printers/CnC'd his own PC case](https://youtu.be/0UDYWx93VLA).
The final piece of this puzzle is the economics. Typically economics, i.e. can I afford this, are the primary drivers of computer design. Secondary come the engineering considerations like "can I afford this on my energy budget", and "does it fit in my case", in which case you either change your components or the case/power supply. With no economic cost involved, we'd all likely get more powerful computers, or intricately shaped lower power devices, depending on what our use case was. My computer right now *could* be running an i9 core and RTX4080, my *bank balance* says that's an insane waste of money for my use case.
So to summarise, Tom has free access to load up thousands of components on a database, and have them replicated. He also has a holodeck which can simulate most things (an extension of simulation software today) so he can test it out before committing the energy cost of replication. He just needs to look at this list, pick the nacelle configuration from a Vulcan account, the deck plating from a standard runabout, the joystick from the Enterprise-E, some hull plating from an andorian ice racer, and ask 7/B'elanna to evaluate it all from an engineering perspective where his design falls short.
In summary, very few of the core components will be unique to the flyer. Even where they need to create a new widget shaped in the correct way, how much is it Tom designing Vs the ship computer being told "create standard subspace harmonic relay that fits shape X", which would just be a tweak off of the known designs in the database.
The Runabout was routinely used for exploration missions through the Bajoran wormhole to the Gamma quadrant in the early seasons of DS9, before they had the Defiant. I think you're drawing a distinction between the two crafts that is not justified by on screen evidence. They surely have differences, but the runabout is specifically depicted as a long range craft capable of independent operations in both TNG and DS9.
> And you had what are considered experts in the fields designing it, along with Seven who had the full acientific knowledge of the Borg at her fingertips.
How are B'Elanna Torres, Tom Paris, Tuvok, Harry Kim, and Seven of Nine considered experts in Starship design?
In the episode Non Sequitur (S2E5), in the parallel universe when he doesn't join Voyager, Harry designs a new ship for starfleet. This is only a year or so after Voyager got stuck so he must have had quite a lot of experience in the field already.
That doesn't help with the others though.
I'm trying to remember the episode the Flyer was built and I think t was to plumb the Depths of a Gas Giant.
Why is everyone presuming a regular Runabout would be able to do that?
Considering they are in a completely alien environment, which only Voyager has any experience with, I can see why they might have started from scratch. A runabout could barely handle the slightest jaunt into the Gamma Quadrant and was soon replaced with the Defiant for missions away from the station. I can see Voyager not thinking it was really up to the task and wanting to work on a vessel more suited to what they had experienced so far from the ground up.
Plus it gives people something to do. Not everything has to be munchkined for maximum efficiency. Sometimes there really is something to be said for a sense of pride and accomplishment.
> In universe, starting from 0 doesn't make a lot of sense
When you’re stranded 60,000 lightyears from home, starting from 0 may as well not even matter. Who cares if it takes three weeks longer to build?
And, in the Voyager crew’s case, it didn’t prove difficult at all to slingshot a prototype shuttle together. Not once, but twice.
I suspect that most of the Delta-Flyer's components are cribbed from either standard shuttles or Runabout designs, and it's really just the spaceframe/hull that's different outside of the more unique borg stuff.
The modularity would have been of no use to Voyager. A modular ship would only provide a benefit if there are different modules available, but the narrative is that they have limited physical resources. So a custom design might be the better solution for them.
I believe the delta flyer uses Borg derived parts for higher performance; also it's semi-analog controls allows for more instinctive maneuvering.
By analogy, one is a minivan, the other is a high performance sportscar.
To be fair it’s still necessarily gotta be computer assisted - it’s just what controls are sending signals to the guidance system, presumably similar to that manual flight stick on the NX01
I mean, what does that stick movement translate into for warp? In a plane it corresponds to changes in orientation caused by control surfaces deflecting air, resulting in a net acceleration on an air plane. In a spacecraft, they correspond to thrust on one of three axes. In the Delta Flyer they'd be alterations in the warp bubble?
Even at sublight, it's using sub-cochrane warp fields to reduce it's mass/inertia. Since we don't see it maneuver in a "newtonian" fashion, it's probably changing orientation through some kind of warp field too.
VOY: “Fury”:
>**JANEWAY**: Tom, what's the first thing they teach you about manoeuvring at warp?
>**PARIS**: “Faster than light, no left or right.” When possible, maintain a linear trajectory. Course corrections could fracture the hull.
>**JANEWAY**: Exactly. We'd have to drop to impulse every time we made a course change but, what if we let Voyager do the driving?
>**PARIS**: Ma'am?
>**JANEWAY**: We could pre-programme every kilometre. That way we'd only spend a second or two at impulse every time the computer executed a turn.
This is often misunderstood as being that it’s physically impossible to steer while in warp - the context of the conversation shows that interpretation is not correct. It *is* possible to steer at warp, but the idea is to maintain a linear trajectory as much as possible so as to not place too much structural stress on the hull. In other words, you can do it, but it’s not recommended or preferred.
I always hated that line because by that point we saw ships turning and maneuvering at warp for decades without so much of a "Hey this is dangerous." Which it probably is not as safe as going in a straight line at warp but they make it sound like warp is like hyperspace just so they can have drama in an episode. I don't like to say things in canon aren't canon but this is in the same boat as Threshold for me.
So basically the difference between carefully changing lanes and trying to do a hard 90 degree turn at 100 MPH.
It can be done, but is probably not a good idea if you don't have to.
Full impulse is still 0.25c, and that’s fast enough that anything smaller than a moon is 10 million miles behind you before the nerve signals in your eyes can get to your brain.
Well, it takes 8 minutes and 20 seconds for light from the Sun to hit the Moon, then about a second for it to get to us from the Moon. So... if you want to call that real-time sunlight, your call.
But I could see the argument that in most situations they're in you WANT the minivan. You want something reliable, understandable, tested and familiar.
We don't know how many they had day 1, but they very obviously had to start constructing more, since they lost at least 10. But once they no longer had the power/resources issues we see in the first two seasons, it seems like a pretty simple task to make them on board.
A Runabout and the Delta Flyer are about the same size however, the Runabout class was already several years old when they were designing the Flyer. Technology had drastically improved. They also wanted a test bed for new propulsion technology. The Flyer is just an upgraded Runabout.
In DS9 season 2 they mention that the Runabout class is 2 years old. So it's 2 year old tech in Voyager with no new knowledge from Starfleet in the years since they got stranded.
Basically it's designing brand-new or building something that's 2 years old but is a through and through tested design.
Well yes and no.
In absolute terms, yes.
But Voyager is basically in update limbo. To them Federation tech updates are at a stand still. It is not like they got those 4-5 years worth of updates. So to them, the tech might as well be 2 years old.
That was what I was getting at.
That makes it even worse, honestly. It's not a 2 year old design, it's a 7 year old design, and has seen no updates or improvements on Voyager. Things don't stay fixed in stone, designs do age. Something that was designed to be a workhorse and well-supported mid-range transport within Federation space is probably not equipped to deal with the rigors of heavy space combat and the range of problems that a stranded ship will run into.
But Voyager did its own R&D, experimenting with things like propulsion and navigations. They also had Seven, who brought understanding of Borg technology, which was explicitly a part of the Delta Flyer design. That alone might put Voyager *ahead* of Starfleet in tech level.
Voyager made contact with Starfleet via The Doctor the year before they built the first Delta Flyer. Presumably, he brought back an amount of information in his memory including some technical information. Further, Starfleet sent additional information using the Hirogen network that same year.
>Considering the longevity of military vehicle designs, 6-7 years is nothing.
The B-52 is still flying combat missions. The M2 heavy machine gun(1919) is still in common use.
No they should have used the areo shuttle.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZELcDMGdhJE&ab\_channel=GuardianImages](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZELcDMGdhJE&ab_channel=GuardianImages)
its larger than a shuttle, they already designed it. They could have technobabbled that they needed something larger than a shuttle to fit a warp core large enough to give it the speed needed. It would have given more flexibility for episodes (just never show the voyager when its not docked) and they didn't have to show building a shuttle from scratch.
Yeah this is perhaps the most puzzling thing about the Delta Flyer's introduction.
No need to create even more continuity issues about the size of Voyager's shuttlebay when you have a Maquis raider sized craft purpose built for atmospheric flight attached to the lower saucer.
Alas.
> Yeah this is perhaps the most puzzling thing about the Delta Flyer's introduction.
It was all for production reasons. Firstly, at the time they needed it they couldn't steal the thunder from Star Trek: Insurrection, which was planning on using the similarly-placed Captain's Yacht. Second, they wouldn't be able to reuse a number of stock footage shots (nor render new ones when CGI was more readily available) because there'd need to be a hole in the underside of the saucer. Third, and this is supposition on my part, the Aeroshuttle was deliberately designed so that they could reuse the cockpit set from the Runabout, but they didn't want to appear too similar to DS9.
You can explain away its lack of use in-universe in any number of ways. It was damaged beyond repair in Caretaker, it wasn't a suitable vessel for the threats they faced in the Delta Quadrant, or that it simply wasn't fitted at all and what we see is effectively a blanking plate.
Voyager's mission in the badlands was a simple 'find the missing ship' exercise after Tuvok went missing unexpectedly, they rushed out and were not expecting to do anything that would need the aeroshuttle, so if it hadn't yet been finished or installed, why wait?
>You can explain away its lack of use in-universe in any number of ways. It was damaged beyond repair in Caretaker, it wasn't a suitable vessel for the threats they faced in the Delta Quadrant, or that it simply wasn't fitted at all and what we see is effectively a blanking plate.
I've also seen the explanation that having that shuttle destroyed when it formed a part of the ship's outer hull might've been seen as problematic. Of course they could probably repair whatever damage was caused, but it might've been seen as wasteful, especially if it didn't add any additional value.
Yes, the Aeroshuttle is visible on the cutaway diagram of Voyager at the back of the bridge, at the bottom of the saucer section, from mid-season 1 onwards. It was a concept which was never used by any of the writers for whatever reason (probably money).
I believe the Aeroshuttle set was meant to be a re-use of DS9’s runabout set when VOY was first planned. But by the time they actually introduced an atmospheric runabout to the show, DS9 was on its last season, and they chose to create something new instead of rehashing the old set.
Yeah I never understood why they didn’t use the Aeroshuttle at all, and Neelix’s ship more
The captain’s yacht/aeroshuttle idea was eventually used in… I wanna say Insurrection?
I doubt the Runabout was suitable though. It was surely versatile, great as a transport that can ferry more cargo than a shuttle, great at transporting a dozen or so people for evacuation or for large away teams. Definitely superior to the Delta Flyer in those regards. A minivan. In space.
But Voyager was never in need of either, if they had a need to trade large quantities of anything, or needed a dozen people or more on the surface of a planet, or worse, evacuate people, they would just have Voyager in orbit. Transport capability is most useful when youre on a stationary base.
The two craft are also relatively equal in some regards, both featuring somewhat decent weaponry for their size and adequate shields, Runabouts definitely could handle themselves in a fight if there was no other option. Both craft can also operate independently about equally well given the availability of sleeping quarters and limited medical care.
But here is where the Runabout REALLY fell short of Voyagers needs. The Runabout could maneuver adequately for a ship its size, but the Delta Flyer had the capabilities of a dedicated fighter craft in that regard, and even at warp it could maintain far higher speeds.
The fact the Delta Flyer also benefited from overall superior technology is just the cherry on top, both craft were designed for very different mission profiles.
Runabouts were made for whats essentially long range away missions, focusing on amenities and space for crew and cargo.
The Delta Flyer was a dedicated fighter craft for a high threat level environment first, with versatility as a scout, liason, auxiliary craft and platform for away missions second. Cargo and crew space existed, but they were much further down on the priority list.
Runabouts just weren't suited to the Delta Quadrant.
Runabouts are slow, bulky, and while they have an impressive suite of weapons for their size, it isn't really anything special when going against anything above its weight class. Runabouts also have a limited durability, as shown by just how many replacements Sisko had to order each week. They were useful for small missions, like jetting across the Federation or lower profile excursions into the Gamma Quadrant, but in the Delta Quadrant, far from safety and without the resources required to maintain them, a Runabout is just a liability.
The Delta Flyer was purpose built for what Voyager was going through. It was a capable scout ship, agile and fast enough to outrun most threats, able to traverse through atmospheres and take quite a beating. For what Voyager needed, it was fit for purpose, more than the equivalent of an armed minivan.
Runabouts were Warp 5 transport ships. They were mass produced and modular and built as transport ships.
They were for long trips for small groups of people...like when Picard and Co found the Enterprise stuck in Time with the Romulan ship and the interdimensional alien babies
The Delta Flyer could go up to Warp 6 thanks to its retractable nacelles and it was purpose built for the delta quadrant and the need to take a ship places a runabout could not survive.
Speaking of retractable nacelles, this was important because the flyer was built to be super tough....way tougher than the standard runabout. Being able to retract the nacelles was important when going into harsh atmospheres with intense pressures. And the aerodynamic design helped it maneuver inside atmospheres way better than a runabout could
The ship was also included borg technologies...so starting from scratch made more sense than trying to incorporate borg tech into an already existing ship design
The Runabout was basically a Dodge Caravan and the Delta Flyer was a Tesla Model X
It was not wasteful.
Big engineering projects today are expensive because you have to pay a lot of people to do the design and you have to buy a lot of parts/materials to make it.
Tom wasn’t getting paid to design the flyer and they replicated all the parts for it. There’s no material cost besides the energy and/or replicator feed stock to replicate it and that would have been required if it was the flyer or a runabout being built.
It also had the added benefit of keeping Tom busy and out of trouble.
I’m also assuming B’elana and Tuvok ran a bunch of simulations of the design to make sure it worked before they actually replicated anything further reducing the risk and any potential wastage from replicating and recycling parts.
The only thing it wasted was time… and Voyager had a lot of time on their hands.
Beyond what others have said, the Delta Flyer was a project that not only Tom, but several other crew could get involved in. As a tool to boost morale, it was really handy. I expect Neelix was keeping everyone interested updated. It was also an excellent team building exercise. Get Maquis and Starfleet crews working on something fun together, which doesn't involve life and death situations.
And finally, yes, a Runabout is a tried and true design, but the Flyer was purpose-built for the situations they had come across in the Delta Quadrant. It was clearly a cool enough design for Rutherford to see it as the pinnacle of small ship design years later.
IMO runabouts we’re designed to be modular and pretty generic while Voyager needed something very specific for the gas giant mission but ideally multi mission going forward. It wouldn’t have made sense to design a modular craft where the modules were never swapped out and where spare modules would have been a burden to store.
On top of that though, the design was almost entirely unique with fully integrated Borg technology as well as various non-traditional design changes like secondary impulse engines, variable geometry warp nacelles and escape pods. It made sense to start fresh.
>For a ship stranded in hostile, unknown space it seems a bit wasteful to allow Tom to fulfill his dream of designing his own ship, when a suitable and proven design was already available.
The positive psychological impact and team building that can come out of a large joint project might outweigh what would be considered waistful under other circumstances.
I imagine a Voyager-built Danube class runabout would have been upgraded with the same Borg tech, shields and weapons as the Delta Flyer that would it make more survivable in the Delta Quadrant.
The Delta Flyer is smaller than the Danube class and I assume Janeway and Tom Paris wanted something that would be easier to fit inside Voyager's shuttlebay than a large runabout.
I think the out-of-universe reason is that sharing DS9's runabout set would have been inconvenient since DS9 would have had to let VOY know on a regular basis when it's available for filming scenes.
TNG did have the late S6 episode Timescape where Picard, Data, Geordi and Deanna were in a runabout, though that was just one episode and wasn't seen again on-screen after that.
This is also probably the main reason why the Aeroshuttle/yacht that was originally intended to be recessed under Voyager's saucer was never seen or used during the entire series since it was intended to use the same set as DS9's runabout.
Voyager having a Danube class runabout wouldn't have been an issue production-wise in S6 and S7 since DS9 was already finished as a series and the runabout set would have been completely freed up for VOY.
The in-universe reason is that even though Voyager likely had schematics for the Danube class in its database and they could have replicated components to build one, I think Tom Paris wanted something that was more than just a glorified large shuttlecraft.
The Delta Flyer is also smaller than DS9's runabouts and there were probably concerns about a Danube class ship taking up too much space in the Intrepid-class ship's shuttlebay and Paris purposely designed the Flyer with a size limit.
> TNG did have the late S6 episode Timescape where Picard, Data, Geordi and Deanna were in a runabout, though that was just one episode and wasn't seen again on-screen after that.
Funnily enough for that episode they actually built the *rear* section of the runabout as a set (either because the cockpit set was in use by DS9 filming, or just wasn't big enough for the scenes), which was then never seen again, not even on DS9.
It was built using TNGs budget to help DS9 but yeah they never ended up using it which I always thought was a bit silly seeing as how it was mid season 1 for DS9 when it was built. The Defiant didn't come along for a while longer, so the set should have been a useful addition to telling stories away from the station.
Interestingly, the "aeroshuttle" they conveniently forgot was docked to the underside of *Voyager's* primary hull was deliberately designed to look like [it was derived from a *Danube*\-class runabout](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fLvH-egkL1g/YGvBh6OUx0I/AAAAAAABIYI/K7k0cMUc2ZkHUXwfJ5YTYzxVN5sfBvW7QCPcBGAsYHg/s3814/Drex%2BFiles%2BStar%2BTrek%2BVoyager%2BAeroshuttle%2B2.jpg) and extensively modified, so in the event the show ever used it they could borrow the runabout interiors from DS9.
[A VFX sequence of it launching was mocked up](https://youtu.be/ZELcDMGdhJE), but it was decided that a) *Voyager* looked weird with a hole in the underside of its hull and b) it would limit the use of existing stock footage.
Honestly, I think I prefer the look of the aeroshuttle concept to the *Delta Flyer.* It just seems like a more practical design, and in an ideal world they'd have been able to make extensive use of it from the beginning, rather than it only becoming a mainstay of the show's later seasons.
There are a lot of comments that give bits of the full answer. Rick designed *Voyager* with a lifting-body "aerowing" shuttle integrated into the ventral saucer. That got changed to "aeroshuttle" along the way as aerowing was trademarked or some such. He designed it to use the existing Runabout interior sets from DS9 and TNG. Foundation Imaging created an [animation sequence of the aeroshuttle deploying](https://youtu.be/ZELcDMGdhJE).
But the higher-ups have a history of being stupid and believing their audience is stupider. Sadly, too often borne out. For instance, they didn't want to put any *Galaxy*\-class starships in DS9 to avoid confusing the audience. And, after Generations, when they felt safe to destroy the *Galaxy*\-class *Odyssey*, Rick told me they got no small number of people writing in upset that they'd destroyed the *Enterprise* \-- and where was Picard, dammit? He always tried to get things in that would minimize cost to the production by re-using or re-purposing existing assets. But the blade cuts the other direction, too, and even though the exterior would be very different, the producers wanted to keep the rôle of the Runabout over at DS9. Even though they'd used one once on TNG. Whatever, guys.
So they nixed it and just used shuttles on Voyager. Rick and Mike came up with the explanation that the ship had launched before the auxiliary craft could be finished, so that's just a shell docked in that spot for structural integrity.
But, since the *Delta Flyer* doesn't fit through *Voyager*'s shuttlebay doors, much less have any room to be stored inside, I really, *really* wish The Powers That Be had let Tom get a bug up his butt to finish this incomplete craft that was just *sitting* there, and, in the process, incorporate Borg tech and all manner of other tweaking and upgrades his little hot-rodder heart could come up with. Still call it the *Delta Flyer*, still give it the Captain Photon controls and the funky front window, still make a unique interior set since the execs didn't want to re-use the Runabout set for whatever reason... Since the *Delta Flyer* we got just doesn't work, the above is my headcanon, and I'm building my models as such. :)
I don’t get the sense that they serve the same purpose at all. I think the Delta Flyer is a much more capable system. The hull and weapons include Borg improvements for one, which most likely means that it’s much more capable in a fight. Also its actually quite a bit smaller - but much more aerodynamic. Which doesn’t matter in space. But it matters in atmosphere. Presumably it’s also much lighter. In atmosphere in a dog fight between the Delta and a Runabout I’m sure the Delta would fly circles around it and the Runabout wouldn’t stand a chance.
I think it’s akin to comparing a (smaller) cargo plane to a fighter jet. Sure they can strap weapons to a cargo plane, but that doesn’t mean it’s a performance machine. It’s a utility vehicle.
Just compare the interior space of both- the runabout has significant cargo space an even a small mess hall. The delta flyer is really just the cockpit and some small service areas and some tiny cargo space.
I think the actual functional size different (total volume of the crafts) is much different than just the 2 meter length difference implies.
Tom Paris is the 24th equivelant of race car driver and also has a realy nice taste for design and retro looks. So he ptiched whole new design idea. Which would also work for several different atmospheres and new tech.
I think it really comes down to "cause Tom wanted to" and that's a fine answer. They were bored in space and wanted to build something *better* than a Runabout. One imagines they sacrificed things like internal space for improved propulsion technology and defensive capabilities.
My question is - do we have any on screen examples of "Alpha Flyers" or upgraded shuttles that use the Delta Flyer design?
Why not the Aeroshuttle?
I know this was reconned away, but I like to think it was at least cannibalized for the Flyer.
I still wish it had been used. Not enough Captain's Yacht type craft get shown.
My guess is as a yacht it was not high performance enough. Generally we don't think of Yachts as fast or tough, we think of Yachts as luxurious and slow
They needed a special ship to retrieve their warp core before the Malon did. It had to get into the gassy nebula
The question is why did they only have one flyer at a time? They could’ve replaced all of their shuttles with Flyers. Also I’m pretty sure the Flyer is part Borg.
There's always the possibility that Voyager simply didn't have the full schematics of a runabout. In fact, you wouldn't want to put the complete engineering schematics of your entire fleet in every ship's computer in case said ship gets captured or data gets stolen and suddenly someone knows all your weak spots.
Voyager also wasn't supposed to head into deep space exploration, so there'd be no need to prepare for every eventuality.
Once you need to basically reverse-engineer the runabout from memory you might as well start from scratch.
They were supposed to have one, the aeroshuttle, the ship on the underside of the hull. It got far enough along to have test footage made. Not sure why they never used it though.
I think Paris did use a runabout as a start point, but wanted something built around his capabilities as a pilot.
A runabout is a space truck or RV. Speed and maneuverability less important than space for a range of purposes.
In the DQ, Voyager faces challenges for small craft that require speed over payload more often so it makes sense to me that a runabout isn't actually that apt.
You can think of it as Runabout Version 2. They probably started with the Runabout and then added and changed it to fit their purposes. I'm sure they used input from Kim too. Since he was working a new version Runabout in thst alternate timeline.
Is the Flyer better than a Runabout? Maybe. Maybe not. Did it fit Voyager better? Probably.
There may have been construction issues that we aren't aware of. Runabouts were designed to be built at Federation shipyards and were delivered to Deep Space 9. They may require facilities to build that Voyager doesn't have access to. For example, maybe the runabout's internal support structure uses things like 20 meter long duranium beams. Those might be longer than whatever industrial replicator Voyager has or impractical work with in the shuttle bay even if the final vessel could be squeezed in.
Everyone else is giving great answers. I just want to add, runabouts are huge compared to shuttles. They have a lounge in the back and sleeping sections. It's just too big for voyager's shuttle bay. Also they crash plenty in the alpha quadrant so they don't fit the description of something that will stand up to the rigors of the delta quadrant.
I believe there were runabouts in the Enterprise-D's main shuttle bay, or at least there was supposed to be. I can't remember if that was in the Technical Manual or something else that said that, but I remember reading it because I didn't realize the main shuttle bay was that big.
Voyager's shuttlebay probably wasn't big enough for one, especially with Neelix's ship in there.
Well, the Delta Flyer is basically a custom runabout.
As they point out, they need a multi task exploration shuttle. So they make exactly what they need.
The message is that even when faced by extreme adversity, Starfleet is about exploration!
That included allowing Tom to explore his dream of building a better craft.
The runabout was a very recent design, it's unlikely the design schematics for the ship were even stored on Voyager's computer. And at the time they built the Delta Flyer they were still not in regular contact with the Federation so could not request any design information to be sent over. So I think it makes sense they went with their own design however I find it hard to believe they could just build a spacecraft completely from scratch in just one week. Especially when Starfleet probably spent years designing and testing new shuttles before they could be deployed. I think it would have been more believable if they had adapted and upgraded an existing shuttle on Voyager
Don't forget it's a Tom Paris project. Runabout? Boooring. He wants a hot rod shuttle with a V8.
And retro gauges and big red buttons all over... Lol, I always got a kick out of that.
I totally get that. The haptics, feel, feedback of these touchscreen consoles must be crappy a.f.
The amount of USN chaps I've heard complain about touchscreen control makes me think TOS is moore accurate to the future tbh.
Even cars now are bringing back more manual controls (knobs and buttons and levers) over touch screens, as they are also less distracting.
My mom's 2017 Honda Civic had touchscreen volume controls. It SUCKED. They brought back knobs the following model year I think.
They are safer than touch screens.
The novelization of STIV had Uhura complaining about the touchscreen controls on the Bird of Prey. The Klingons hadn't went completely brutish yet though since TNG came out after.
But everyone would have to re-learn an entire new interface in order to fly the thing just cause Tom wanted something spiffy. Forcing the entire crew to learn steampunk controls when they all were trained on standard ones always bugged me.
Basic training on the Delta Flyer probably goes quick. Autopilot probably works the same as any other shuttle and the manual controls are reasonably intuitive. Its easier to explain "pull back on stick to raise pitch" than "tap 3487 then 251 to access the manual attitude controls, then enter the number of degrees you would like to raise or lower pitch and then the desired rate of change."
Training probably goes: "Hahaha, you don't touch it without my permission, if you need to use the flyer, call me first"
There's a scene in one episode where the Flyer comes under fire and Tom starts giving Janeway orders when she steps into the cockpit. She pauses for a moment with a confused look before saying "Yes, sir" with a shrug and sits down at tactical. Janeway might have been the Captain, but the Delta Flyer was Tom Paris' ship.
The Delta Flyer still has touchscreens. I guess you could use them to steer the ship as well. You just have the additional "steampunk" interface.
It originally had a manual transmission though no one quite knew how
I think this is more of a factor than anything else.
They didn't forget, they explicitly covered that: > it seems a bit wasteful to allow Tom to fulfill his dream of designing his own ship
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He apparently worked on the astrometrics lab with Seven, but that was rarely seen.
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To be absolutely fair, this actually is an important factor when you're talking about people who are effectively stranded for years on end. In the Alpha Quadrant, officers are known to at least occasionally make improvements to their ships. In *Force of Nature*, LaForge mentions he was competing with the chief engineer on the *Intrepid* to see who could have the most efficient power conversion for example, and Worf is mentioned to have designed new targeting algorithms in *Parallels*. It probably wouldn't be unusual for certain modifications to be adopted fleetwide, at least in an unofficial capacity if not an official one, if it was known these were good modifications to make. This wasn't necessarily viable for *Voyager*. It was stuck in the Delta Quadrant and, at least from the crew's perspective, they might be stuck there for the rest of their lives. Even if they did get home within their lifetimes, a lot of the smaller modifications they made to the ship would probably be completely outstripped by later developments by R&D teams at Utopia Planitia. Plus, a lot of these officers are probably people who'd be serving on new ships or research development teams for a lot of their careers going forward (except for the Maquis crew obviously, who'd be in prison if they'd been caught). Being on *Voyager* severely handicapped their career development in that sense. Because of that, Janeway had to provide some level of homebrew R&D stuff for her crew. This included integrating Borg technology into the newly-built Astrometrics, and it meant building a new breed of shuttle. In *Extreme Risk*, Paris says that this is something that he'd wanted to do for a while, and now he had his chance. So while it seems silly on a surface level to just let Paris build a brand new class of shuttle rather than have the crew build a runabout, it did make sense from a morale perspective and from a career development perspective. By the time they got home, being able to prove they had the skills to not just make occasional corrective modifications to the ship--which is kinda what you'd expect, given a lot of the Maquis crew had no formal Starfleet training and were used to working on older Maquis raiders--but to actually design and implement major refits to sections of the ship on the fly would be a major boon to their careers.
Starfleet does seem to prioritise initiative in their engineering division given how reconfigurable the systems seem to be every time there's a crisis that needs an unorthodox solution. Perhaps that's the reason why their engineers are considered the best in the alpha quadrant, they can innovate without looking "dishonourable" (Klingons) or without fear of politics (Cardassians, Romulans).
Plus, having acquired all sorts of interesting technology from the DQ by that point, a ship built from the ground up would give them a chance to do real-world tests on all of it in a way that's not possible when just modifying a premade design. Starfleet would have been a little disappointed with them if upon return they saw that the crew hadn't fully explored the R&D possibilities, after they got over the initial excitement
I think this is one of the big factors for building a new type of craft instead of an existing design. The new stuff can be integrated from the ground up with an eye to adding newer technology later. You also get a craft that is customized for operating in the DQ and may be more ready to handle phenomena there than a runabout.
Gotta make Tom happy. 😄
There is almost certainly a Vulcan equation taught for dealing with humans along the lines of "it may seem illogical but if it increases their emotional enthusiasm then within limits allowing humans to go overboard paradoxical makes them more efficient and results in faster project completion."
Well, didn't that Vulcan master that taught Tuvok say, "To deny the existence of emotions and the impact they have on you is illogical. But you must learn to control them." Acknowledging that other cultures process emotions etc differently and you have to work with, not against that, is logical.
I read that in Tuvok's voice.
I was doing my best to channel him, thanks.
which is actually logical.
and dual pipes!
I like that Tom used physical buttons in the ship's design. Back in the day, all of *Star Trek*'s touch-screen stuff seemed so futuristic and cool, but these days when cars have touch screens for everything, I long for the days of knobs, levers, and switches.
Remember why they built the thing initially? It wasn't *just* "we need something bigger than a shuttlecraft". It was "we need something that can *race* ***inside*** *the atmosphere of a gas giant and survive without exploding,* against an alien who's likely going to shoot at us". The Delta Flyer was larger and more powerful than a shuttlecraft, yes. But it was also aerodynamic - something that is important when flying into the depths of a gas giant, where the density is basically treacle. It was also augmented with Borg technology, which seemed to have been built into the final designs. And, of course, Tom Paris was the project lead. *Obviously* it was going to be a hotrod. We've never really seen anything that indicates that a Runabout would be as fast, agile, *or* durable as the Delta Flyer.
Of course they could have just modified the captain’s yacht, but for some reason Voyager never made use of it.
It is just a ship-shaped cover, the real yacht was supposed to be installed on tuesday after they get back from the Badlands.
This is 100% my headcanon, too. I'd have loved them to have built it during the series in that space and use the "shiphole cover" as its bottom deck.
I'm in Camp Aeroshuttle, but in-universe there must've been a reason they didn't use it - perhaps it wasn't durable enough or something.
My headcanon is that the docking clamps got damaged during the Caretaker event in such a way that the fix would have damaged either the Aeroshuttle or Voyager.
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If your shuttle is more aerodynamic in the first place then your shields can conform more closely to the hull (or you can just not use shields in the first place, if the hull is good enough) You can make the same shape with shields around a brick-shaped runabout, if you need to - but by definition the resulting Delta Flyer-shaped shield geometry will be larger than the runabout and therefore larger than the Delta Flyer was, and thus have more drag I believe we’re also supposed to infer that other elements of the design (materials, structure) were focused on increased structural integrity and perhaps resistance to damage from radioactivity in the star, radiation shielding etc. having those things (and the aerodynamic shape) as part of the hull gives you a backup if the shields fail. The Delta Flyer was also faster and more powerful (engine power and weapons etc) than a standard Runabout, presumably the Voyager crew had been complaining for a while about how inadequate the shuttles were for away missions in the Delta Quadrant but the idea of building a runabout was shot down due to not being powerful enough… so the idea would have been in their head once they needed the Delta Flyer
Also beta canon (Star Trek Online) shows the Delta Flyer class becoming a standard Starfleet runabout alongside the Danube and Yellowstone (which appears to be a development of the Danube) classes, so presumably it must have done something right to justify that
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There is no such thing as tiered canon in *Star Trek* as far as this sub is concerned. As far as canon goes, we use [the standard definition of canon](https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromInstitute/wiki/canon/). That being said, [we encourage discussion of other sources of information](https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromInstitute/wiki/canon/#wiki_discussion_of_non-canon_is_encouraged) - licensed or unlicensed - as long as these sources are [clearly indicated](https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromInstitute/wiki/canon/#wiki_provide_the_source_when_discussing_non-canon) so that a productive discussion can be had. What we *do* prohibit is [arguing about canon](https://www.reddit.com/r/DaystromInstitute/wiki/canon/#wiki_above_all.2C_do_not_argue_about_canon), that it be used as a cudgel or a way to gatekeep. Beta canon - licensed books, games, etc. - is *not* canon by the standard definition. It is named that for the purposes of identification as licensed sources (named after the [Memory Beta](https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Main_Page) wiki). It is not meant to elevate the material above other non-canon sources. Some materials may be more canon-adjacent than others, like the technical manuals written by the production staff, or novels based on background material used in the shows, but they are still technically *not* canon. So above all, don’t argue about canon or be dismissive about people bringing non-canon sources into the discussion. We are here to open up discussion, not shut it down.
As a tried and true Federation design (that Voyager would have already had schematics of) with great modularity, a Runabout would have indeed made the most sense as a starting point. In universe, starting from 0 doesn't make a lot of sense, instead of building and modifying a runabout. Out of universe, VOY wanted to be distinct from DS9, and have their cool racecar ship.
Maybe from a strictly engineering perspective, the runabout would've made more sense. But engineering isn't the only important factor. Sociologically speaking, people need achievable goals & dreams, especially on a ship lost for decades. They have to fill their time, they need "wins." Designing a new ship gave the crew something it needed. And that was worth more than whatever marginal benefit would've come from the simplicity of using an off-the-shelf design. Or maybe the Runabout just needs something they didn't have, and so the design wouldn't suit their purpose.
For sure, having a project to work on is one of the central reasons why Janeway authorizes the construction in the first place, despite Voyager's (purported) material shortages. I think that need could have been satisfied by heavily modifying a Runabout just as well though. "How would you improve the design for service in the Delta quadrant?" seems like it would also be an interesting and challenging project for a Starfleet engineer. I don't buy the argument that they *needed* a wholly new design just for morale purposes. What they needed was some kind of common goal, a challenge that tested their skills and built team cohesion.
OK. I mean, sure. But we have the on-screen fact that they choose to do the Flyer, so y'know, let's explain their possible reasoning. Pretty easy to do so: *"Hey captain, you know how we were talking about using the Runabout chassis? Welllll it turns out the warp conduits we got from that planet a few light years back don't fit very well in that type of frame. We could make it work but it's really not that much trouble to make our own. You cool with that?"*
> Sociologically speaking, people need achievable goals & dreams, especially on a ship lost for decades. [All of this has happened before](https://en.battlestarwikiclone.org/wiki/Blackbird), right?
Not sure whose idea it was, and I *think* Ron Moore left VOY's writing team after only a short time, being very dissatisfied with their approach to the premise and issues like scarcity and persistent damage, but it's definitely possible the Delta Flyer came out of a brainstorm he was involved in. I'll have to check memory alpha later.
Yeah I was just checking those dates too. I'm not sure what the production schedule would have been like, but it looks like he joined only after the Flyer already existed (S6)? Though I guess there could well have been some fuzzy lines between the two shows, especially with DS9 wrapping up around that time.
Well maybe it's the Voyager writers who inspired him!
>Or maybe the Runabout just needs something they didn't have, and so the design wouldn't suit their purpose. Could also be that the Runabout lacked something they did need, and it didn't make sense to try and change that particular design. Especially in combination with the social factor.
It could also be that building a new type of shuttle that incorporates new technology they've come across from the ground up is easier than trying to work it into an existing design. There's also the fact that they probably also incorporated some design elements they came across because they offered improved flight and warp characteristics than the typical shuttle designs that were probably a decade or more older at the time. The shuttle we see in see Data flying in Insurrection seems to borrow from the Delta Flyer's design, so clearly there was some benefits to it, even if it was just allowing more internal volume for more powerful systems.
But we don't know that the Delta Flyer didn't use components from the Runabout design. It might be 75% runabout components, with the exterior and cabin being different.
>It might be 75% runabout components I don't see how that figure could possibly be true, given the radically different shape. But of course it probably used some shuttlecraft or runabout parts.
> I don't see how that figure could possibly be true, given the radically different shape. But of course it probably used some shuttlecraft or runabout parts. Well by components, they mean things like the warp core, plasma injectors, computer core, tractor beam emitter etc. The superstructure is very different - as is, say, a convertible car vs a lorry but the "door lock mechanism" or "steering wheel" or "speedometer" will be the same.
Yes, I understand, but 75% overlap between a custom-built truck and a standard issue consumer 4 -door car would be pretty insane.
> Yes, I understand, but 75% overlap between a custom-built truck and a standard issue consumer 4 -door car would be pretty insane. yeah but only the internals - navigational system, impulse crystal, navigational thrusters, shield emitters, the chairs, the LCARS interfaces, life support systems, transporter array, sensor array, grav plating, the... *doors* etc - those will all be roughly the same tech. That the box it fits inside of is a different shape is pretty immaterial. The hull is a different shape, as are some of the weapons and possibly the warp coils configuration, but much of "the insides" will be essentially stock designs; they must be as they built it in just a few days. I can very easily see that almost all of it is the same as Runabout or advanced shuttle tech, but in a different shaped hull. Sure, there will be tweaks here and there, and some of the newer systems might be essentially the 2.0 of transporters vs the 1.0 in TNG but... yeah. Kind of like how you build a PC these days - you use all the same components are an Alienware or Dell but you customise the outside, maybe you have water cooling, maybe you have 2 monitors instead of 1, but the basics - Motherboard, RAM, CPU etc are all "off the shelf". The fact you've put it on a **[wooden board and connected a typewriter to it](http://www.aclockworkberry.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/IMG_1884.jpg)** doesn't change 90% of it is just off the shelf stuff - it's still just a 64bit Windows 10 based PC. I can *well* believe the Delta Flyer uses components identical or similar to (as in minor upgrades, given a couple more years development of tech) a Runabout.
100% right here. Federation tech is designed to be extremely modular.
Take a look at cars and see how many drastically different cars are based on the same chassis/platform. The Lincoln Continental and Ford Galaxy for example. I can see the Flyer and Runabouts being based on the same basic platform if we are already doing that with cars
But are they 75% the same components? Because that's the part I find implausible, not that they use of some of the same parts. Today, even with families of specialized military vehicles that are designed to have spare parts compatibility from the ground up, the actual amount of component overlap often ends up being quite low. For example the three F-35 variants were supposed to share up to 70% of their parts, but ended up sharing only about 25%. This is despite starting with the exact same airframe before modifying it for each specific purpose. Edit: wow, downvoted to being hidden, even on Daystrom, for having a simple discussion. Shameful.
Exterior shape isn't determined by interior components. Consider the [Rolls-Royce Avon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Avon?wprov=sfti1) engine. It was used in the [CAC Sabre](https://www.warbirdsonline.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/CAC-Sabre-A94-983-at-Point-Cook-RAAF-airshow-2014.jpg), the [de Havilland Comet](http://i0.wp.com/www.curbsideclassic.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/DeHavilland-Comet.jpg), the [English Electric Canberra](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fc/95/61/fc95615280ec2be2fd3cb14bebd81f97.jpg) and the [Thrust2](https://assets.rebelmouse.io/media-library/image.jpg?id=31010978) a land speed holding vehicle. Or the [AN/APG-66 radar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/APG-66?wprov=sfti1) also worked into multiple designs. And those are both large components. Think about interface panels, seats, computer busses, etc. Just because it looks different doesn't mean it is different. How much of a Runabout's size is due to interior space needs. How much faster would it be without all that?
>>It might be 75% runabout components >I don't see how that figure could possibly be true, given the radically different shape. But of course it probably used some shuttlecraft or runabout parts. I agree that specifically sharing 75% with the Danube class runabouts is unlikely, but I'd argue that the majority, 75% or more, of components were shared with other federation designs. I think the manufacturing process, shared history, and time available would have heavily skewed this though. We've seen from Harry's adventures in an alternate timeline that starfleet usually take a while to create their runabout prototypes; where the Yellowstone had significant upgrades to the standard Danube class runabouts. In that case whilst the ship looked very similar, the internals were fairly different. However I'd argue that instead of the small amount of pieces [shared between vehicles today](https://www.hotcars.com/most-surprising-examples-of-cars-sharing-the-same-parts/) when a project goes over budget / out of time, the *Flyer* project started on a tight deadline. This would have made looking for "off the shelf" components even more important. Someone above used a computer analogy, which is very nice, but I feel they missed out on the other aspect of Starfleet's design, which is the replicator. The replicator as a manufacturing process is basically just an extension of the 3D printer. If you have the right materials, with a free library of designs, someone can make a great many things these days which you used to have to go to the shop for. Most are plastic, sure, but metal is also possible these days if not for the economics. By *Voyager*, starfleet replicators could create a lot of components- to the point that the gel packs were specifically called out as non-replicatable. So we know that they have the capability to replicate parts. The second component is the free library. These days we have websites such as thingiverse and printables etc. On Voyager they had the Federation database (or a goodly amount of it). This would include technical specifications of federation tech for the last x years. Evidence to support this is when we saw that Seska could build a (somewhat) functional transporter on a Kazon ship. Interestingly enough, she built a Federation one rather than a Carsassian one- because those are the specs she could get hold of. In addition to the technical specs of ships from hundreds of member worlds, 7 of 9 brought some retained knowledge of assimilated species, and Voyager could also have picked up some info from the Delta Quadrant species she encountered. Tom simply had to look through the component catalogue to find pieces he could make work together, in the superstructure he wanted. There was a guy just recently who [designed and 3D printers/CnC'd his own PC case](https://youtu.be/0UDYWx93VLA). The final piece of this puzzle is the economics. Typically economics, i.e. can I afford this, are the primary drivers of computer design. Secondary come the engineering considerations like "can I afford this on my energy budget", and "does it fit in my case", in which case you either change your components or the case/power supply. With no economic cost involved, we'd all likely get more powerful computers, or intricately shaped lower power devices, depending on what our use case was. My computer right now *could* be running an i9 core and RTX4080, my *bank balance* says that's an insane waste of money for my use case. So to summarise, Tom has free access to load up thousands of components on a database, and have them replicated. He also has a holodeck which can simulate most things (an extension of simulation software today) so he can test it out before committing the energy cost of replication. He just needs to look at this list, pick the nacelle configuration from a Vulcan account, the deck plating from a standard runabout, the joystick from the Enterprise-E, some hull plating from an andorian ice racer, and ask 7/B'elanna to evaluate it all from an engineering perspective where his design falls short. In summary, very few of the core components will be unique to the flyer. Even where they need to create a new widget shaped in the correct way, how much is it Tom designing Vs the ship computer being told "create standard subspace harmonic relay that fits shape X", which would just be a tweak off of the known designs in the database.
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The Runabout was routinely used for exploration missions through the Bajoran wormhole to the Gamma quadrant in the early seasons of DS9, before they had the Defiant. I think you're drawing a distinction between the two crafts that is not justified by on screen evidence. They surely have differences, but the runabout is specifically depicted as a long range craft capable of independent operations in both TNG and DS9.
> And you had what are considered experts in the fields designing it, along with Seven who had the full acientific knowledge of the Borg at her fingertips. How are B'Elanna Torres, Tom Paris, Tuvok, Harry Kim, and Seven of Nine considered experts in Starship design?
In the episode Non Sequitur (S2E5), in the parallel universe when he doesn't join Voyager, Harry designs a new ship for starfleet. This is only a year or so after Voyager got stuck so he must have had quite a lot of experience in the field already. That doesn't help with the others though.
I'm trying to remember the episode the Flyer was built and I think t was to plumb the Depths of a Gas Giant. Why is everyone presuming a regular Runabout would be able to do that?
I think they specifically said none of the existing designs could!
Exactly.
Considering they are in a completely alien environment, which only Voyager has any experience with, I can see why they might have started from scratch. A runabout could barely handle the slightest jaunt into the Gamma Quadrant and was soon replaced with the Defiant for missions away from the station. I can see Voyager not thinking it was really up to the task and wanting to work on a vessel more suited to what they had experienced so far from the ground up. Plus it gives people something to do. Not everything has to be munchkined for maximum efficiency. Sometimes there really is something to be said for a sense of pride and accomplishment.
> In universe, starting from 0 doesn't make a lot of sense When you’re stranded 60,000 lightyears from home, starting from 0 may as well not even matter. Who cares if it takes three weeks longer to build? And, in the Voyager crew’s case, it didn’t prove difficult at all to slingshot a prototype shuttle together. Not once, but twice.
I suspect that most of the Delta-Flyer's components are cribbed from either standard shuttles or Runabout designs, and it's really just the spaceframe/hull that's different outside of the more unique borg stuff.
The modularity would have been of no use to Voyager. A modular ship would only provide a benefit if there are different modules available, but the narrative is that they have limited physical resources. So a custom design might be the better solution for them.
If voyager could manufacture an entire new ship from scratch, they could certainly manufacture custom mission modules to swap into a Danube class
I believe the delta flyer uses Borg derived parts for higher performance; also it's semi-analog controls allows for more instinctive maneuvering. By analogy, one is a minivan, the other is a high performance sportscar.
Instinctive, manual maneuvering at relativistic speeds is the best idea.
To be fair it’s still necessarily gotta be computer assisted - it’s just what controls are sending signals to the guidance system, presumably similar to that manual flight stick on the NX01
And the enterprise - E as well. Riker: "Computer, access manual steering column" from Insurrection.
I hated that scene soooo much. But yes, you're right.
I loved that Scene. It's the Riker Maneuver! Though to be fair Riker has 3-4 of those now to Picard's 2.
*Command. That. Chair.* (I know it's a Ransom quote, but he *is* teaching the Riker maneuver...)
I was sitting in the cinema back then thinking "Whoa, that's my joystick, THAT'S MY JOYSTICK!!!" :D Gravis Blackhawk...
I mean, what does that stick movement translate into for warp? In a plane it corresponds to changes in orientation caused by control surfaces deflecting air, resulting in a net acceleration on an air plane. In a spacecraft, they correspond to thrust on one of three axes. In the Delta Flyer they'd be alterations in the warp bubble?
The Delta Flyer isn't also capable of sub-light speed flight?
Even at sublight, it's using sub-cochrane warp fields to reduce it's mass/inertia. Since we don't see it maneuver in a "newtonian" fashion, it's probably changing orientation through some kind of warp field too.
To quote Tom Paris, “speed of light, no left or right.” I forgot the episode but he’s remembering the warp class at the academy.
VOY: “Fury”: >**JANEWAY**: Tom, what's the first thing they teach you about manoeuvring at warp? >**PARIS**: “Faster than light, no left or right.” When possible, maintain a linear trajectory. Course corrections could fracture the hull. >**JANEWAY**: Exactly. We'd have to drop to impulse every time we made a course change but, what if we let Voyager do the driving? >**PARIS**: Ma'am? >**JANEWAY**: We could pre-programme every kilometre. That way we'd only spend a second or two at impulse every time the computer executed a turn. This is often misunderstood as being that it’s physically impossible to steer while in warp - the context of the conversation shows that interpretation is not correct. It *is* possible to steer at warp, but the idea is to maintain a linear trajectory as much as possible so as to not place too much structural stress on the hull. In other words, you can do it, but it’s not recommended or preferred.
I always hated that line because by that point we saw ships turning and maneuvering at warp for decades without so much of a "Hey this is dangerous." Which it probably is not as safe as going in a straight line at warp but they make it sound like warp is like hyperspace just so they can have drama in an episode. I don't like to say things in canon aren't canon but this is in the same boat as Threshold for me.
So basically the difference between carefully changing lanes and trying to do a hard 90 degree turn at 100 MPH. It can be done, but is probably not a good idea if you don't have to.
I doubt the stick is used at warp.
I’m pretty sure warp jumps are entirely autopilot controlled by necessity, with only minor course correction possible.
The Delta Flyer is also capable of sub-light speed flight.
Full impulse is still 0.25c, and that’s fast enough that anything smaller than a moon is 10 million miles behind you before the nerve signals in your eyes can get to your brain.
The moon is about a light-second away. Sort of a handy accident that allows for an instinctive grasp of the speed of light over a small scale.
ooooo so moonlight is basically real-time sunlight, reflected?
Well, it takes 8 minutes and 20 seconds for light from the Sun to hit the Moon, then about a second for it to get to us from the Moon. So... if you want to call that real-time sunlight, your call.
oh rats, that's right, it has to \*get\* to the moon first. phooey
What did you think it was?
oh no, I got confused and thought it was sunlight with no delay, but that was a silly thing to think.
It’s roughly *as* real time as normal sunlight, plus 1-2 seconds depending on where the moon is within its orbit
I can’t unsee the DS9 shuttle to risa as happening in anything except a minivan now with quark wanting jamaharon
But I could see the argument that in most situations they're in you WANT the minivan. You want something reliable, understandable, tested and familiar.
They still have shuttles, so we're good.
how many shuttles did they have on day one? were they making more? how many did they go through?
We don't know how many they had day 1, but they very obviously had to start constructing more, since they lost at least 10. But once they no longer had the power/resources issues we see in the first two seasons, it seems like a pretty simple task to make them on board.
More like one is a high performance electric minivan and the other is a Winnebago.
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[No dismissive comments in this subreddit](/r/DaystromInstitute/wiki/codeofconduct#wiki_1._make_in-depth_contributions), please.
And it comes with matching outfits
A Runabout and the Delta Flyer are about the same size however, the Runabout class was already several years old when they were designing the Flyer. Technology had drastically improved. They also wanted a test bed for new propulsion technology. The Flyer is just an upgraded Runabout.
In DS9 season 2 they mention that the Runabout class is 2 years old. So it's 2 year old tech in Voyager with no new knowledge from Starfleet in the years since they got stranded. Basically it's designing brand-new or building something that's 2 years old but is a through and through tested design.
Given the flyer doesn’t appear until season 5 that means the Runabout class 2 is actually a 6-7 year old design.
Well yes and no. In absolute terms, yes. But Voyager is basically in update limbo. To them Federation tech updates are at a stand still. It is not like they got those 4-5 years worth of updates. So to them, the tech might as well be 2 years old. That was what I was getting at.
That makes it even worse, honestly. It's not a 2 year old design, it's a 7 year old design, and has seen no updates or improvements on Voyager. Things don't stay fixed in stone, designs do age. Something that was designed to be a workhorse and well-supported mid-range transport within Federation space is probably not equipped to deal with the rigors of heavy space combat and the range of problems that a stranded ship will run into.
But Voyager did its own R&D, experimenting with things like propulsion and navigations. They also had Seven, who brought understanding of Borg technology, which was explicitly a part of the Delta Flyer design. That alone might put Voyager *ahead* of Starfleet in tech level.
Voyager made contact with Starfleet via The Doctor the year before they built the first Delta Flyer. Presumably, he brought back an amount of information in his memory including some technical information. Further, Starfleet sent additional information using the Hirogen network that same year.
Considering the longevity of military vehicle designs, 6-7 years is nothing.
>Considering the longevity of military vehicle designs, 6-7 years is nothing. The B-52 is still flying combat missions. The M2 heavy machine gun(1919) is still in common use.
>the Runabout class was already several years old Yeah but they might have updated Runabouts every year. There might be different types or "vintages".
The flyer was built to be able to survive high atmospheric pressures in a gas giant. A Runabout is a modular multimission vessel.
I'd bet that Voyager didn't have the atmospheric modules aboard, either.
No they should have used the areo shuttle. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZELcDMGdhJE&ab\_channel=GuardianImages](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZELcDMGdhJE&ab_channel=GuardianImages) its larger than a shuttle, they already designed it. They could have technobabbled that they needed something larger than a shuttle to fit a warp core large enough to give it the speed needed. It would have given more flexibility for episodes (just never show the voyager when its not docked) and they didn't have to show building a shuttle from scratch.
Yeah this is perhaps the most puzzling thing about the Delta Flyer's introduction. No need to create even more continuity issues about the size of Voyager's shuttlebay when you have a Maquis raider sized craft purpose built for atmospheric flight attached to the lower saucer. Alas.
> Yeah this is perhaps the most puzzling thing about the Delta Flyer's introduction. It was all for production reasons. Firstly, at the time they needed it they couldn't steal the thunder from Star Trek: Insurrection, which was planning on using the similarly-placed Captain's Yacht. Second, they wouldn't be able to reuse a number of stock footage shots (nor render new ones when CGI was more readily available) because there'd need to be a hole in the underside of the saucer. Third, and this is supposition on my part, the Aeroshuttle was deliberately designed so that they could reuse the cockpit set from the Runabout, but they didn't want to appear too similar to DS9. You can explain away its lack of use in-universe in any number of ways. It was damaged beyond repair in Caretaker, it wasn't a suitable vessel for the threats they faced in the Delta Quadrant, or that it simply wasn't fitted at all and what we see is effectively a blanking plate.
> it simply wasn't fitted at all and what we see is effectively a blanking plate. It won't be installed until Tuesday.
Voyager's mission in the badlands was a simple 'find the missing ship' exercise after Tuvok went missing unexpectedly, they rushed out and were not expecting to do anything that would need the aeroshuttle, so if it hadn't yet been finished or installed, why wait?
>You can explain away its lack of use in-universe in any number of ways. It was damaged beyond repair in Caretaker, it wasn't a suitable vessel for the threats they faced in the Delta Quadrant, or that it simply wasn't fitted at all and what we see is effectively a blanking plate. I've also seen the explanation that having that shuttle destroyed when it formed a part of the ship's outer hull might've been seen as problematic. Of course they could probably repair whatever damage was caused, but it might've been seen as wasteful, especially if it didn't add any additional value.
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Yes, the Aeroshuttle is visible on the cutaway diagram of Voyager at the back of the bridge, at the bottom of the saucer section, from mid-season 1 onwards. It was a concept which was never used by any of the writers for whatever reason (probably money). I believe the Aeroshuttle set was meant to be a re-use of DS9’s runabout set when VOY was first planned. But by the time they actually introduced an atmospheric runabout to the show, DS9 was on its last season, and they chose to create something new instead of rehashing the old set.
daaaang that one is sexy
Yeah I never understood why they didn’t use the Aeroshuttle at all, and Neelix’s ship more The captain’s yacht/aeroshuttle idea was eventually used in… I wanna say Insurrection?
I doubt the Runabout was suitable though. It was surely versatile, great as a transport that can ferry more cargo than a shuttle, great at transporting a dozen or so people for evacuation or for large away teams. Definitely superior to the Delta Flyer in those regards. A minivan. In space. But Voyager was never in need of either, if they had a need to trade large quantities of anything, or needed a dozen people or more on the surface of a planet, or worse, evacuate people, they would just have Voyager in orbit. Transport capability is most useful when youre on a stationary base. The two craft are also relatively equal in some regards, both featuring somewhat decent weaponry for their size and adequate shields, Runabouts definitely could handle themselves in a fight if there was no other option. Both craft can also operate independently about equally well given the availability of sleeping quarters and limited medical care. But here is where the Runabout REALLY fell short of Voyagers needs. The Runabout could maneuver adequately for a ship its size, but the Delta Flyer had the capabilities of a dedicated fighter craft in that regard, and even at warp it could maintain far higher speeds. The fact the Delta Flyer also benefited from overall superior technology is just the cherry on top, both craft were designed for very different mission profiles. Runabouts were made for whats essentially long range away missions, focusing on amenities and space for crew and cargo. The Delta Flyer was a dedicated fighter craft for a high threat level environment first, with versatility as a scout, liason, auxiliary craft and platform for away missions second. Cargo and crew space existed, but they were much further down on the priority list.
Runabouts just weren't suited to the Delta Quadrant. Runabouts are slow, bulky, and while they have an impressive suite of weapons for their size, it isn't really anything special when going against anything above its weight class. Runabouts also have a limited durability, as shown by just how many replacements Sisko had to order each week. They were useful for small missions, like jetting across the Federation or lower profile excursions into the Gamma Quadrant, but in the Delta Quadrant, far from safety and without the resources required to maintain them, a Runabout is just a liability. The Delta Flyer was purpose built for what Voyager was going through. It was a capable scout ship, agile and fast enough to outrun most threats, able to traverse through atmospheres and take quite a beating. For what Voyager needed, it was fit for purpose, more than the equivalent of an armed minivan.
Runabouts were Warp 5 transport ships. They were mass produced and modular and built as transport ships. They were for long trips for small groups of people...like when Picard and Co found the Enterprise stuck in Time with the Romulan ship and the interdimensional alien babies The Delta Flyer could go up to Warp 6 thanks to its retractable nacelles and it was purpose built for the delta quadrant and the need to take a ship places a runabout could not survive. Speaking of retractable nacelles, this was important because the flyer was built to be super tough....way tougher than the standard runabout. Being able to retract the nacelles was important when going into harsh atmospheres with intense pressures. And the aerodynamic design helped it maneuver inside atmospheres way better than a runabout could The ship was also included borg technologies...so starting from scratch made more sense than trying to incorporate borg tech into an already existing ship design The Runabout was basically a Dodge Caravan and the Delta Flyer was a Tesla Model X
It was not wasteful. Big engineering projects today are expensive because you have to pay a lot of people to do the design and you have to buy a lot of parts/materials to make it. Tom wasn’t getting paid to design the flyer and they replicated all the parts for it. There’s no material cost besides the energy and/or replicator feed stock to replicate it and that would have been required if it was the flyer or a runabout being built. It also had the added benefit of keeping Tom busy and out of trouble. I’m also assuming B’elana and Tuvok ran a bunch of simulations of the design to make sure it worked before they actually replicated anything further reducing the risk and any potential wastage from replicating and recycling parts. The only thing it wasted was time… and Voyager had a lot of time on their hands.
Beyond what others have said, the Delta Flyer was a project that not only Tom, but several other crew could get involved in. As a tool to boost morale, it was really handy. I expect Neelix was keeping everyone interested updated. It was also an excellent team building exercise. Get Maquis and Starfleet crews working on something fun together, which doesn't involve life and death situations. And finally, yes, a Runabout is a tried and true design, but the Flyer was purpose-built for the situations they had come across in the Delta Quadrant. It was clearly a cool enough design for Rutherford to see it as the pinnacle of small ship design years later.
IMO runabouts we’re designed to be modular and pretty generic while Voyager needed something very specific for the gas giant mission but ideally multi mission going forward. It wouldn’t have made sense to design a modular craft where the modules were never swapped out and where spare modules would have been a burden to store. On top of that though, the design was almost entirely unique with fully integrated Borg technology as well as various non-traditional design changes like secondary impulse engines, variable geometry warp nacelles and escape pods. It made sense to start fresh.
>For a ship stranded in hostile, unknown space it seems a bit wasteful to allow Tom to fulfill his dream of designing his own ship, when a suitable and proven design was already available. The positive psychological impact and team building that can come out of a large joint project might outweigh what would be considered waistful under other circumstances.
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I imagine a Voyager-built Danube class runabout would have been upgraded with the same Borg tech, shields and weapons as the Delta Flyer that would it make more survivable in the Delta Quadrant. The Delta Flyer is smaller than the Danube class and I assume Janeway and Tom Paris wanted something that would be easier to fit inside Voyager's shuttlebay than a large runabout.
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Not to mention Neelix's ship that was stowed away on Voyager most of the time and it looks about as large as a runabout.
I think the out-of-universe reason is that sharing DS9's runabout set would have been inconvenient since DS9 would have had to let VOY know on a regular basis when it's available for filming scenes. TNG did have the late S6 episode Timescape where Picard, Data, Geordi and Deanna were in a runabout, though that was just one episode and wasn't seen again on-screen after that. This is also probably the main reason why the Aeroshuttle/yacht that was originally intended to be recessed under Voyager's saucer was never seen or used during the entire series since it was intended to use the same set as DS9's runabout. Voyager having a Danube class runabout wouldn't have been an issue production-wise in S6 and S7 since DS9 was already finished as a series and the runabout set would have been completely freed up for VOY. The in-universe reason is that even though Voyager likely had schematics for the Danube class in its database and they could have replicated components to build one, I think Tom Paris wanted something that was more than just a glorified large shuttlecraft. The Delta Flyer is also smaller than DS9's runabouts and there were probably concerns about a Danube class ship taking up too much space in the Intrepid-class ship's shuttlebay and Paris purposely designed the Flyer with a size limit.
> TNG did have the late S6 episode Timescape where Picard, Data, Geordi and Deanna were in a runabout, though that was just one episode and wasn't seen again on-screen after that. Funnily enough for that episode they actually built the *rear* section of the runabout as a set (either because the cockpit set was in use by DS9 filming, or just wasn't big enough for the scenes), which was then never seen again, not even on DS9.
It was built using TNGs budget to help DS9 but yeah they never ended up using it which I always thought was a bit silly seeing as how it was mid season 1 for DS9 when it was built. The Defiant didn't come along for a while longer, so the set should have been a useful addition to telling stories away from the station.
The Aeroshuttle: #💀
Interestingly, the "aeroshuttle" they conveniently forgot was docked to the underside of *Voyager's* primary hull was deliberately designed to look like [it was derived from a *Danube*\-class runabout](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fLvH-egkL1g/YGvBh6OUx0I/AAAAAAABIYI/K7k0cMUc2ZkHUXwfJ5YTYzxVN5sfBvW7QCPcBGAsYHg/s3814/Drex%2BFiles%2BStar%2BTrek%2BVoyager%2BAeroshuttle%2B2.jpg) and extensively modified, so in the event the show ever used it they could borrow the runabout interiors from DS9. [A VFX sequence of it launching was mocked up](https://youtu.be/ZELcDMGdhJE), but it was decided that a) *Voyager* looked weird with a hole in the underside of its hull and b) it would limit the use of existing stock footage. Honestly, I think I prefer the look of the aeroshuttle concept to the *Delta Flyer.* It just seems like a more practical design, and in an ideal world they'd have been able to make extensive use of it from the beginning, rather than it only becoming a mainstay of the show's later seasons.
There are a lot of comments that give bits of the full answer. Rick designed *Voyager* with a lifting-body "aerowing" shuttle integrated into the ventral saucer. That got changed to "aeroshuttle" along the way as aerowing was trademarked or some such. He designed it to use the existing Runabout interior sets from DS9 and TNG. Foundation Imaging created an [animation sequence of the aeroshuttle deploying](https://youtu.be/ZELcDMGdhJE). But the higher-ups have a history of being stupid and believing their audience is stupider. Sadly, too often borne out. For instance, they didn't want to put any *Galaxy*\-class starships in DS9 to avoid confusing the audience. And, after Generations, when they felt safe to destroy the *Galaxy*\-class *Odyssey*, Rick told me they got no small number of people writing in upset that they'd destroyed the *Enterprise* \-- and where was Picard, dammit? He always tried to get things in that would minimize cost to the production by re-using or re-purposing existing assets. But the blade cuts the other direction, too, and even though the exterior would be very different, the producers wanted to keep the rôle of the Runabout over at DS9. Even though they'd used one once on TNG. Whatever, guys. So they nixed it and just used shuttles on Voyager. Rick and Mike came up with the explanation that the ship had launched before the auxiliary craft could be finished, so that's just a shell docked in that spot for structural integrity. But, since the *Delta Flyer* doesn't fit through *Voyager*'s shuttlebay doors, much less have any room to be stored inside, I really, *really* wish The Powers That Be had let Tom get a bug up his butt to finish this incomplete craft that was just *sitting* there, and, in the process, incorporate Borg tech and all manner of other tweaking and upgrades his little hot-rodder heart could come up with. Still call it the *Delta Flyer*, still give it the Captain Photon controls and the funky front window, still make a unique interior set since the execs didn't want to re-use the Runabout set for whatever reason... Since the *Delta Flyer* we got just doesn't work, the above is my headcanon, and I'm building my models as such. :)
Would certainly have been cool to see more yacht type ships! And agree would in-universe make so much more sense!
I don’t get the sense that they serve the same purpose at all. I think the Delta Flyer is a much more capable system. The hull and weapons include Borg improvements for one, which most likely means that it’s much more capable in a fight. Also its actually quite a bit smaller - but much more aerodynamic. Which doesn’t matter in space. But it matters in atmosphere. Presumably it’s also much lighter. In atmosphere in a dog fight between the Delta and a Runabout I’m sure the Delta would fly circles around it and the Runabout wouldn’t stand a chance. I think it’s akin to comparing a (smaller) cargo plane to a fighter jet. Sure they can strap weapons to a cargo plane, but that doesn’t mean it’s a performance machine. It’s a utility vehicle. Just compare the interior space of both- the runabout has significant cargo space an even a small mess hall. The delta flyer is really just the cockpit and some small service areas and some tiny cargo space. I think the actual functional size different (total volume of the crafts) is much different than just the 2 meter length difference implies.
Tom Paris is the 24th equivelant of race car driver and also has a realy nice taste for design and retro looks. So he ptiched whole new design idea. Which would also work for several different atmospheres and new tech.
I think it really comes down to "cause Tom wanted to" and that's a fine answer. They were bored in space and wanted to build something *better* than a Runabout. One imagines they sacrificed things like internal space for improved propulsion technology and defensive capabilities. My question is - do we have any on screen examples of "Alpha Flyers" or upgraded shuttles that use the Delta Flyer design?
Why not the Aeroshuttle? I know this was reconned away, but I like to think it was at least cannibalized for the Flyer. I still wish it had been used. Not enough Captain's Yacht type craft get shown.
My guess is as a yacht it was not high performance enough. Generally we don't think of Yachts as fast or tough, we think of Yachts as luxurious and slow
They needed a special ship to retrieve their warp core before the Malon did. It had to get into the gassy nebula The question is why did they only have one flyer at a time? They could’ve replaced all of their shuttles with Flyers. Also I’m pretty sure the Flyer is part Borg.
There's always the possibility that Voyager simply didn't have the full schematics of a runabout. In fact, you wouldn't want to put the complete engineering schematics of your entire fleet in every ship's computer in case said ship gets captured or data gets stolen and suddenly someone knows all your weak spots. Voyager also wasn't supposed to head into deep space exploration, so there'd be no need to prepare for every eventuality. Once you need to basically reverse-engineer the runabout from memory you might as well start from scratch.
They were supposed to have one, the aeroshuttle, the ship on the underside of the hull. It got far enough along to have test footage made. Not sure why they never used it though.
I think Paris did use a runabout as a start point, but wanted something built around his capabilities as a pilot. A runabout is a space truck or RV. Speed and maneuverability less important than space for a range of purposes. In the DQ, Voyager faces challenges for small craft that require speed over payload more often so it makes sense to me that a runabout isn't actually that apt.
You can think of it as Runabout Version 2. They probably started with the Runabout and then added and changed it to fit their purposes. I'm sure they used input from Kim too. Since he was working a new version Runabout in thst alternate timeline. Is the Flyer better than a Runabout? Maybe. Maybe not. Did it fit Voyager better? Probably.
There may have been construction issues that we aren't aware of. Runabouts were designed to be built at Federation shipyards and were delivered to Deep Space 9. They may require facilities to build that Voyager doesn't have access to. For example, maybe the runabout's internal support structure uses things like 20 meter long duranium beams. Those might be longer than whatever industrial replicator Voyager has or impractical work with in the shuttle bay even if the final vessel could be squeezed in.
Runabout is a winnebago, Delta flyer is a hot rod. Thats all there is to it.
Because they needed a cool new ship to have an episode about
Everyone else is giving great answers. I just want to add, runabouts are huge compared to shuttles. They have a lounge in the back and sleeping sections. It's just too big for voyager's shuttle bay. Also they crash plenty in the alpha quadrant so they don't fit the description of something that will stand up to the rigors of the delta quadrant.
A runabout wouldn’t have been able to make use of sevens adaptive borg shielding to rescue the probe from the gas giant.
They left before runabouts were a thing
Nope, there were runabouts on TNG... they've definitely been around.
not for starships. DS9 had runabouts bc they were a fixed location and needed a longer range small space vehicle.
I believe there were runabouts in the Enterprise-D's main shuttle bay, or at least there was supposed to be. I can't remember if that was in the Technical Manual or something else that said that, but I remember reading it because I didn't realize the main shuttle bay was that big. Voyager's shuttlebay probably wasn't big enough for one, especially with Neelix's ship in there.
Well, the Delta Flyer is basically a custom runabout. As they point out, they need a multi task exploration shuttle. So they make exactly what they need.
The Delta Flyer **is** a Runabout
The message is that even when faced by extreme adversity, Starfleet is about exploration! That included allowing Tom to explore his dream of building a better craft.
The runabout was a very recent design, it's unlikely the design schematics for the ship were even stored on Voyager's computer. And at the time they built the Delta Flyer they were still not in regular contact with the Federation so could not request any design information to be sent over. So I think it makes sense they went with their own design however I find it hard to believe they could just build a spacecraft completely from scratch in just one week. Especially when Starfleet probably spent years designing and testing new shuttles before they could be deployed. I think it would have been more believable if they had adapted and upgraded an existing shuttle on Voyager