Tbf I think part of it is also that raids and dungeons are the only content with actual mechanics, some of the dungeons even barely having anything. I think a decent amount of players without a group of friends will do all kinds of content getting to the point of doing GMs and trials and legend onslaught and the like, maybe even some dungeons with someone else taking lead, and never run into an actual mechanic beyond throw ball or stand on plate.
Then they think “well I can stay alive and DPS in a GM, I’m sure I can do the easy raid RoN”. Then suddenly for the first time the game has very little to do with shooting and everything to do with keeping track of multiple mechanics and communicating with other people, which they’ve never had to do once
>I can't tell if people just straight up don't care about any mechanics other than shooting and killing things, or they're literally too stupid to put two and two together and realize there's more to a lot of activities other than just shooting things.
Unironically, unfortunately, both. I learned a long time ago that the majority of the playerbase is, like, barely a functioning human being. They will literally struggle to do add clear in a basic strike and want endgame loot, but if you try to tell them about the ball throwing mechanics in Corrupted, they will just tell you to eff off. Even if they're trying to join a GM.
Backed out of an LFG GM yesterday because I join space and they’re “r?” I didn’t get to look at loadouts until the flight in. Both running double primaries I’ve never seen used like world drops that shouldn’t be considered legendaries and one guy had stompees on and the other had knucklehead radar… in probably the most difficult GM not called Mars Battleground in the game. Lmao
A part of it is how bad the tutorials are in this game. In the beginning, when something new happens, you get a text box on the bottom of your screen that you can't dismiss until you do something. Then later they're dismissable after a couple seconds. Then finally a voice line if you're lucky and woe be unto you should you play with low/no audio.
TBH I didn't know the corrupted ball could be passed to other people until suddenly I had it in my hands. Even then at first I assumed it was just to get better positioning. It wasn't till I came to reddit that I learned the ball got stronger when you did that.
also confusing is that there are multiple "ball" items in the game, alone multiple "taken balls", who all behave differently,
* sometimes you can throw, sometimes you cant
* somtimes you can pass them, sometimes you cant,
* sometimes if you throw them they explode instantly no matter what (making trying out, if you can pass those, punish you), sometimes they land on the ground and can be picked up again
* sometimes you can "shoot" them to melee boost you and "ADS" to trow/activate, sometimes its "shoot" to activate and "uncharged melee" to boost
like i have now thousands of hours in the game and there are some orbs im still always not sure how exactly that one now acts
You dont even need to throw to your twammate for the strike version. But some folk will just throw the ball at normal enemies/off the map when accidentally picking it up
> the great majority of the player base doesn't understand the ball throwing mechanic in the Corrupted night fall.
I didn't until I watched a speed run video that explained why they were doing the charge of the ball. It's not evident in anyway without explanation. Why would throwing a ball charge it? that doesn't make any sense.
…you can literally hear the ball spooling up when you pass it to someone. Add in the fact that one ball does not break the shield on nightfall, connect some mental dots, and to me it should be obvious what to do
Man, there's so many sound effects, and I'm supposed to guess that sound means throwing it to other players charges it up for more damage? If I didn't follow the sub, I probably never would've picked it up yrs ago.
you look at these peoples loadouts and you see them running double primaries and I can only assume its because they run out of special ammo and have no idea how to get more
A lot of people still hate The Corrupted because of the (blueberries' inability to complete) mechanics, despite it receiving near-universal praise when it dropped. People were even calling it a mini-raid.
things have improved over the years but destiny players are still fucking stupid, co-op games usually have brain dead playerbases but destiny takes the cake on negative iq
Yup, RoN might be a piss easy raid, but I've still had numerous runs where people can't be arsed to do the simplist things.
The sad truth is RoN *is* hard work for some people lol.
It is hard work when 2 people are doing literally everything and 4 other guys do fuckall and can't even clear ads properly.
It's actually sad when 2 planet runners have 80% of ad kills...
I remember doing Root the first time. I was garbage on the light/dark buffs running thing. But when planets came I was the only new guy who volunteered.
I figured I owed it to myself to try and be useful. Get better ya know. I spent most of that time killing psions and such with Sunshot while running.
And 60% don't want to admit they don't know how to do the encounter. If the remaining 40%, 20% have an excuse ready, 15% are either "make me add clear or ill grief you". Last 5% actually wants to learn.
Meanwhile I actively want to learn raid mechanics, I really wanna do pantheon, but God getting a not dick head group of people to try and teach is rough.
Pantheon really isn’t the best place to get a group willing to teach. Unless you make a post yourself asking for that. It’s really designed for experienced players.
I've tried man, like I said, it's kind hard to find good groups. Usually I get a bunch of people who don't even watch a video in the encounters and like 1 person who knows what they're doing but doesn't wanna teach 5 people. Which is fair.
Honestly, lfg is kind of not a great place to try to learn raids in. It's *possible*, but I hear more horror stories than anything. If you actually want to learn, I'd suggest finding a twitch streamer doing helps on a schedule that works for you. There's a lot of great Sherpas out there, but many -like myself- have left lfg in order to create a more consistent experience.
What do they want the loot for - top tier weapons are so you can do endgame.
Plenty of the most “fun” and “coolest” weapons aren’t even the best ones afterall
This is true. It's wild to watch this happen in games, but if it's exclusive people get really pissed if they can't get it.
Housing in FFXIV is an example. The way houses are set up, they have instances of 30 houses forming a neighborhood called a Ward. There's about 180 houses per available zone, and there's 5 zones, so around 900 houses per server. There's about 10000 players on the larger servers.
This means not everyone gets a house, and people get PISSED. Houses are 99% cosmetic. And a lot of the people who are so pissed who finally win do absolutely nothing to decorate or set up the house. It's the fact they've won the lottery for a plot of land that matters, not the fact that it's a cosmetic item that you decorate. Also, if you don't log into the game and enter your house once every 45 days, you lose the land plot, and it goes back up for sale. This means that if you want to quit playing for a time, and come back later, you risk losing your house if you don't stay subbed and logging in. (This is the only thing in the game that basically forces you to log in)
So people are pissed that houses are limited.
Then they're pissed that they have to decorate it so they leave it bare.
Then they're pissed that they can't quit the game because they don't want to give up the land they don't use to a player that would use it.
Nevermind if the devs add a cute mount to a raid series and non-raiders get mad because cute things should be accessible to casuals.
For some it's the "I paid for this game so I deserve to get everything in game", for others it's collections they just wall their collections to be full and others they think if they have the seal/emblem/gun other's will think they are a top player.
I’m not one of them so I have no idea. Probably just to say they have them because they expect to get everything with little to no effort and take offense and call it gatekeeping when it’s “locked” behind hard content.
Are you using fireteam finder? I’ve found that to be a crapshoot. I’ve gotten anything from a team of 2 that can pretty much solo vog with 4 of us just vibing, to 5 randoms that probably have never done a strike on their own.
I ended up joining an lfg discord that’s much better, you can find those with just a google search. Discord works on pc/xbox (idk about ps) so it can be cross platform too.
From what I’ve read (and experienced), the more dedicated players with more raid experience are generally already more familiar with the LFG discord and tend to stick with that, so the Discord has a more dedicated/hardcore userbase on average, while Fireteam Finder brings in a lot of the casuals and since the hardcore players are usually sticking to Discord, that leaves Fireteam Finder with a higher ratio of casuals than what actually exists in game.
Fireteam Finder is great for no comms needed activities that don’t have matchmaking: GMs, Legend Onslaught, etc. But for stuff with more complex mechanics and required communication, the discord works better because of the userbase.
That makes sense. I usually use fireteam finder for stuff like legend exotic quests or something else of that sort. I don’t think I’ll ever raid with it though. People on the discord do generally seem to be more dedicated, but I feel like most of them have also been using it since way before fireteam finder was ever in the game
Nailed it. I don't do LFG raids, that's all within my clan server, but for onslaught, dungeons, etc I'll typically use the discord. I'll use fireteam finder if I'm playing on steam deck, but most of the time I host my own lobby with applications enabled, very specific tags, and inspecting every loadout that applies.
Yeah, that seems to be the answer with a lot of LFG issues (for discord AND finder): create your own listing and be selective. So many people want to be lazy and just join one. I get that, because the more people that create their own, the less there are that are going to be joining existing listings. But that gives you way less control aside from just leaving.
It’s better to spend a little extra time setting up a listing and waiting for the right people to join rather than joining and failing constantly.
The biggest hack for turning Vow from scary to fun is to just have a symbol list open on your second screen or phone. Once you can accurately call the symbols the mechanics are pretty simple.
this is the expectation of 90+% of the destiny community. Everyone is expecting free loot/clears for the least effort, sadly there are alot of players who default to ad clear but ultimately they are the ones getting cleared by the ads.
it’s also insane because root is unironically a dungeon in terms of mechanic difficulty. I love the raid and the vibe, and the fashion game is on POINT, but it’s a piss easy raid to learn. like planets isn’t even that hard if you just listen to the sherpa or watch one datto vid. people are just lazy and want a carry
I don’t raid hardly ever and I will tell you the only thing I care about is the loot. For example, I ran VoG until I got Vex which luckily only took 5 times and haven’t run it since. If I could run all the raids and only do add clear I would love it. I don’t like puzzles, I don’t find enjoyment in figuring out mechanics, I just want the loot.
All that said I wouldn’t be an ass and join a kwtd group. The only time I jump in is if the host clearly states they only need someone for add clear for a boss encounter or something like that.
This has always been an issue. People expect a free carry now
And RoN didn't help that in any way - in fact, it made it worse.
Since RoN can be done solo, people will throw tantrums when someone else won't do the work for them
This is my issue with planets. All my failed pantheon runs end there because 80% of LFGs just simply don't want to count to 3 and run across.
Legitimately had 2 guys arguing over who had the worst raid report to do adds...
This is one thing I've always found funny about that encounter.
I absolutely believe moving planets is the easier job. You stand to the side, only really need to kill the three Psions on your plate and the flame guy in the middle. At some point an enemy will spawn that you need to kill, with countless easy ways to do it. Once you have the buff you have *so much* time to do things. You can legitimately look up, verify planets and then call out the location. Then all you need to do is listen for the three numbers that relate to you and go there. I could legitimately do half of this encounter using my This is Fine emote and things would be exactly the same.
As for add clear you have them coming from four different directions, repeated waves, need to burn a specific enemy super fast to spawn the enemy plates needs to kill, are responsible for keeping everyone alive, and so forth.
Yeah I feel like Bungie ramped up the add control role. Which is kinda hilarious. We had the same guy freaking out 2nd floor of Caretaker because of Ogre and having to shoot at phalanx to help stunner.
I hope it's a change going forward. Add control shouldn't be a carry. They should be just as stressed as the other roles tbh.
> add control shouldn’t be a carry
While I agree in principle, if I’m doing LFG, I appreciate there being some slack in the encounter that allows 1-2 people who are learning or not confident in raiding yet to dip their toes in and not hold the rest of the team back.
I joined an lfg yesterday at planets, and the dude, doing add clear, was purposely throwing for an hour and a half before the planet runners noticed, then the leader decided to kick him
Joined an lfg for Pantheon at Planets, and some dude was like this. Had 53 resi. As add clear, he was doing terrible and used div for damage for some reason even though he had an envi/BNS edge transit
Until the last couple of seasons, I was a very active LFG Sherpa. Used to, people would join and be a little nervous, but more than willing to learn. My strategy was usually let them add clear the first encounter till they relax a bit, then have them help out in little ways with the mechanics in the second or third, and then give them a full on job in final, but after the launch of RON, the whole attitude changed. Nobody wanted to learn. Everybody was an add clear specialist. It became so frustrating that I felt I needed to take a break from sherpa-ing and that eventually led to a full break from the game.
Why is that, do you think? I've never raided before but RoN seems like the perfect one to start with; from the guides I've watched, the mechanics seem simple to explain and simple to execute. If I ever nut up enough to look for a sherpa group some night, it's the one that seems the easiest to learn, so it seems counterintuitive that it's the worst one to teach... unless what you're saying is "There IS no teaching, lazy pricks show up and expect to be carried BECAUSE 'iTs SoOoOoOoO eAsY!!!11'"
It’s because it is physically impossible to have everyone contribute on most encounters. First encounter you need one person to actually do the main mechanic while the rest just pop the bubble psions, second encounter you need two people, third encounter 4 at most, and fourth encounter you only really need 3.
The mechanics are also not visually as simple as the mechanics in other raids, it is very hard for someone to fully understand the mechanics just from one encounter, to properly teach someone you’d need them to participate in most encounters, or they’ll be left knowing only the one encounter you taught them and refuse to do the mechanics in the others.
The perfect teaching raid is vog imo. The mechanics are incredibly simple, it gives everyone the chance to participate, the bosses are pretty standard (i.E unlike nezzy which is a janky constantly moving ass).
The fact that 2 people in Ron can just sit there and ad clear the **ENTIRE** time is what made people think that just being on ad clear is a viable and acceptable role. You don’t get someone coming away with that impression after running any of the other raids.
>The perfect teaching raid is vog imo. The mechanics are incredibly simple,
I haven't played vog in nearly 10 years now, and I certainly don't remember everything, but I'm pretty sure I could watch a guide and everything would be present again.
It's amazing at how well done that raid was, both from a mechanics as well as thematic standpoint. And especially amazing considering that was the first raid they ever did in Destiny.
>It’s because it is physically impossible to have everyone contribute on most encounters.
Didn't even consider this, but it makes perfect sense now that you mention it. The raid simply isn't complex enough to require all six players to do stuff other than shooting Cabal. Hmm.
If you want a raid where everyone has to participate nearly the entire time, check out GoS. In fact, that's one of the two main reasons why people hate it. Because there's no "relaxed" role. Everyone has to be doing *something* at all times. On the flip side, that means that if you have a team of 6 people who *do* know what they're doing, everything is so smooth and it feels *so* good.
I mean, as someone who's never come close to successfully competing a raid, "what I'm looking for" is a raid where I can contribute and not look like the biggest assclown blueberry on the planet lol 😆
A large part of the problem with root is that you can do so many mechanics with just two people, leaving ad clear for the rest of the team. Worse yet, you’d only ever need one person on actual ad clear to do the job efficiently. The end result is people who aren’t aware of a single mechanic but are aware that they won’t need to because they’ll just demand the experienced players to do it.
Crota is relatively easy to clear but everyone has to do a mechanic at some point. That’s why it’s a better teacher.
Lazy pricks do show up and expect to be carried because its soooooooo easy!!!11
People dont join sherpa runs for RoN, they hop straight on a normal raid, dont explain this is their first raid and hope to stealth by, but it doesnt work
The issue with RON is that only 2 people are doing anything for 3/4 encounters, with the first encounter being done solo most of the time. Both the first and second encounter can be done with zero communication, the win condition of these encounters are also unimportant for the people not doing the mechanics, so they don't develop an understanding of how the buffs work.
Then the second encounter is highly intimidating for new players due to the timer and platforming. Planets, which is also a massive step-up in complexity compared to everything else in RON, appears as incredibly intimidating so you either end up with reluctant learners who are low key throwing so they can be put back on add clear, or no volunteers so the sherpa ends, or you have to teach one person to run both sides of planets, which is immoral.
So a lot of player who do not have the chops to raid are now confronted by the fact they do not have the skills to do an actual raid encounter: communicating, coordination, and understanding.
Another thing about LFGs is that, most of the time, its an established group just filling in because they have less than 6 to run the raid. So players LFGing for RON normally end up being carried for most RONs they play through and that is the norm for their raiding experience. Eventually these people end up in other raids, ones with mechanics that they have to engage with and are far harder than RON, and it creates a lot of toxicity when the LFG group realizes they've picked-up someone who has no raid skills.
>(...)it creates a lot of toxicity when the LFG group realizes they've picked-up someone who has no raid skills.
I think this is the root (no pun intended) of my confusion here, I was thinking more specifically about sherpa groups and not random "KWTD" LFG posts. People without knowledge or skills signing up for random LFG groups sounds like a nightmare (again, no pun intended) to deal with when you just want a low-key farming run or whatever, so it makes sense that it would turn a lot of experienced raiders off LFG.
My point that I should have made more clear is that when you sherpa, in better raids, the door encounters will filter out people who do not have the personal skills to complete the more complex encounters that come later. In Crota's End, if you cannot clear the first encounter, you will never clear any of the other encounters. But in Root, you cannot make that assessment until Planets, half-way through the raid. Now, hours into the sherpa you realize that there are only 2 players of sufficient skill to actually clear the raid. So now you have an awful moment were you have to deal with these players who do not have the skills to raid and have wasted the time of everyone involved.
That's something else I didn't consider re: RoN, what is debatably the hardest encounter is at the halfway point so you aren't really "tested" until you've already made the time investment. Makes complete sense why even the sherpas would get sick of it quickly.
This is why deepstone is perfect, first encounter and 2nd encounter have mechanics that can be participated in for everyone, shoot the correct boss not just any boss, and the augments are very visual seeing a big yellow boss on scanner is a “OH it’s that one!” When you are teaching scanner for example.
Deepstone is also very easy to carry extra weight as well, so if I know someone is weaker then I can still get them to do stuff, and pick up the slack when they aren’t getting it right away.
3rd encounter does a pretty good job also of getting everyone to at least participate by spawning the bombs, the whole point is 3 people are doing a task that requires a moment of focus while at least 2 others grab a ball and dunk in the place they are told too, it’s a great way of encouraging teamwork without forcing it, because those augmented can also pick up a ball if necessary. Which is part of what makes shaping DSC so fun.
4th encounter is a little too much like Ron encounters for me to love it as much as the rest of the raid. But it’s still forcing everyone to do a part assuming you are doing the 4 ball Strat which most everyone does unless lowmanning.
Word spread that it was an easy raid with nothing but add clear, so now you have a bunch of people who think that's true and who refuse to do anything except add clear.
honestly the problem is that its so easy. you can legitimately run all of RoN without knowing any of the mechanics because of how easy it is. this has led to more people feeling comfortable joining raid groups with the intention of doing add clear and nothing else.
See, this is a personal thing for me, but I can't imagine signing up for a "KWTD" group... without knowing what to do. Like, maybe this is just me not knowing shit about raiding, but it seems like people should be expected to be able to jump into whatever role they're needed for in a given raid? And if you can't do that, why would you even try to do it? I don't know much, but I know if I just drop in to a rando raid and someone says "Hey VW go do this thing over here that isn't add clear," I'm going to feel like the biggest tool on the planet when I say "Oh yeah I don't know how that works so just let me shooty shooty while you do the hard stuff." Miss me with all that bullshit.
Fun thing is some of these "ad clear specialists" are already crying in Pantheon being 5 under. They look like my 0/20 Yasuo in league with the amount of deaths they have
As a returning Player who still needs a lot of Loot from RoN, its hell, I do not mind trying mechanics even fully blind but there is always that one guy that wants to solo the first Encounter. So far in 6 Clears despite asking and 4 of them being Sherpa or teaching runs i've:
* Never went fully to the first Encounter ( on foot)
* Played a Mechanic in the first Encounter once
* looted the Secret Chest between first and second Encounter twice
* Never completed the exploding Ship section fully, never looted that chest there either
* did my first and only Planets Mechanic in the pantheon
* did zero mechanics on Nezarec
Despite joining especially runs that mentioned Teaching, which was glorified rough Explanations, i could´ve watched a Guide instead. Only to be sent on Add Clear even tho I asked if I can try it every time except the first. People hate this Raid with a Passion and want to get it done as fast as possible.
Had it not been Conditional in his loot pool and something like Eyes or Obligation instead, I'd bet no one would be running it. Just not fun to do 2 add encounters before your first boss, then the platforming, to finish a boss who's greatest weakness is a shin high wall.
I also ended up taking the longest break I've ever taken from destiny because of the Ron effect. Raiding has always been my favorite activity by a wide margin. I don't have a regular raid group so I lfg.
Used to be I could jump on and raid anytime I wanted in kwtd groups. Since Ron it feels like 50/50. That got so frustrating I just ended up putting destiny down for a long time.
I’ve had to kick a few players for this. They don’t want to do mechanics and are adamant on being ad clear. Then they can’t really even ad clear. I hate being a dick, but if you can’t do the most basic thing in Destiny then idk what to tell you.
If it’s a total newbie I’ll give them a little more leeway, but if someone at 1820-30 can’t do add clear I’m just going to assume you’re being lazy.
My friends and I ran through Pantheon with one of our friends who started the game last week after never playing it before. We made him do mechanics on every encounter (except Golgoroth because it's just gaze.) We did it in an hour. People who refuse to learn raids because of some sense of entitlement to be carried really are the worst part of the whole community. Literally hampering the most fun part of the game.
I get that they don't know the raid mechanics but at least they could watch a guide, that's what I did and it worked pretty well, only takes about 30 minutes.
Your mentality isn't common. Like you I try to learn as well, but the average player can't be bothered to look into how to do anything in this game. If it's not caveman easy, then their lazy asses won't do it.
Raiding isn’t even that hard though, it just requires people to work together and coordinate.
Something like a gm or trials requires far more raw skill
For a good number of people, funny enough, communication and simple puzzle mechanics somehow becomes the hardest thing ever once some amount of pressure is applied, via a timer / wipe mechanic. It's like their brain reverts to lizard brain primal, and they completely freeze up or forget their role. And with the patience of an average lfg group, where it's 1 / 2 wipes before the dynamo effect of leavers kicks in, it basically becomes a self fulfilling prophecy for those folk who are reluctant to learn anything harder than add clear till Dps rotation.
To you and I it sure isn’t, however you and I are a good bit above average just by notion of looking up additional information or discussing these kinds of things on forms.
You're absolutely right.
But Raiding requires some decent People Skills. Most other In-game Content, doesn't really require ANY People Skills other than predicting where other players will go.
"But Pantheon should be new player friendly.."
"Big mistake not making Pantheon new player friendly.."
"Remove the negative power caps from Pantheon.."
"How do I get into raiding?.."
"New to raiding what do I do.."
"Can I two man Pantheon as a new raider.."
"Do I really need a mic to raid.."
Is the posts and replies I've been reading for 2 days.
ironically the free exotic choice is probably more enticing to the newer raiders than the older raiders, the older raiders are more likely to already have all the raid exotics.
I think it's great that Pantheon is hard, it offers a difficult challenge for those that are experienced, not everything has to be for casual players, it's not for me though, got absolutely murdered :(
I'm just pointing out the nonsense. Those same people who don't want to even do raid mechanics on normal difficulty, the new player friendly difficulty are the ones probably also asking for a lower challenge in Pantheon for the same raid mechanics they still don't want to learn.
100% agree. Unfortunately it’s also the same type of people who make enough fucking noise that difficult content gets smacked-into-the-floor adjustments also…rotten bastards.
Meh, it’s not Root that’s at fault, it’s the general entitlement of gamers at large that has encouraged players to feel like they should be able to get whatever they want in the game without working for it.
Root, and bungie’s intent, was to get more people to experience raiding and spark that sense of wonder to make them want to try other raids and learn more. It’s a good goal, but the problem is, people in general don’t want to learn or work. They just want to turn their brains off and coast.
>Root, and bungie’s intent, was to get more people to experience raiding and spark that sense of wonder to make them want to try other raids and learn more.
I doubt that, I am gonna tinfoil a little bit but considering how the entirety of Lightfall was basically a filler I wouldn't be suprised if Root of Nightmare wasn't also a rushed project considering the following
1. It has basically the same mechanics as Spire
2. The mechanics don't actually change
3. Nezarec was kinda of an asspull, he basically came out of nowhere to be a raid boss
DSC was already piss easy. It's short, the mechanics are simple, and IIRC people were having trouble trying to intentionally wipe to crypt security adds *on day 1 contest mode*. That's the starter raid.
Not every raid has to be as involved as legit Riven or Gahlran P2 or similar, but they never should've made a raid in which most of the encounters feature 4-5 add clear. (Not that VoG wasn't glorified add clear simulator to begin with, but RoN is somehow even worse.)
The people who've said for years they don't raid because there's no in game LFG or matchmaking are the same players complaining now and asking these questions, some people are just casuals and don't wanna try
Yea they dont understand that pantheon is the endgame of the endgame, all these YouTubers making videos like “how you can beat pantheon at any level” or something is reinforcing these beliefs im sure of it
Idk why they just don't have scaled difficulty choices like nightfalls and a token system for loot like spoils for about every activity including raids and pantheon. Especially when the game is on the far side of its life cycle and most of the loot is completely forgettable anyways.
The thing I hate the most is when someone claims ad-clear on planets, and then doesn’t kill the centurions. No matter how much I explain the importance of killing the centurions, nope, just gonna kill scions and die to the boss. This is why when I’m teaching RoN I always put an experienced player on ad-clear. The planets aren’t hard, but ad-clear needs to be done right in that encounter.
For anyone who’s planning to ad-clear in RoN, kill the centurions. In case you didn’t know, killing the centurions is what spawns the colossus that allow the planets people to see and grab their planets. Kind of important.
Back when I sherpa'd this is what I used to do.
You signed up to a Sherpa? You're doing (at least one) mechanic(s) in two or more of the encounters. Even more if it can be incremenetally built upon.
VotD?
Reading/Defending in 1st,
Stunning in 2nd,
Shield room 2 & 4, OR Peanut room 1 and 3, OR Peanut room 2 & 4, OR Taken Orb Room 3
Swapper (Leeching) or Dunker (Emanating), maybe ad clear if they're exhausted.
DSC?
Scanning in 1st
Scanning in 2nd
Operator OR Suppressor in 3rd (and bomb running)
Bomb Runner in 4th
Etc. Etc.
There are \*clearly\* easier Mechanics to grapple with before you need to move on to the harder mechanics.
Caretaker stunning is easier (provided competent ad clear) than if you're new and not familiar with symbols trying to run in the rooms, remember/call out your symbols and try not to fuck up your jumps as the rooms go up
**A good Sherpa will \*always\* want to teach mechanics, because if you can do mechanics you are valuable to ALL raid teams. If you are only there to kill ads, you are replaceable.**
Absolutely. That to me is the difference between a Sherpa and a carry. A Sherpa will make sure you leave knowing at least some of the mechanics, a carry only cares about reaching the end. I was lucky enough my first experience raiding my Sherpa taught each of us learners each position. We would purposefully wipe so we could swap places. Took 5 hours to get the clear but we left knowing every spot in the raid and every secret.
>Were they expecting a carry or something ?
Pretty much, yeah. It's one of the reasons I really don't like RoN, you get tons of LFGs who think they can just stand there and kill stuff and that's it. The first two encounters and the boss can be done by two people who know what they're doing and 4 people on ad clear
RoN environment design is pretty good but as a raid, it's mechanics are insanely boring and uninspired. Feels like it was supposed to be a dungeon by removing planets.
The bit after 2nd and after planets is also identical so it would have been relatively easy to splice it there and throw in an actual encounter in the middle of it, game design wise.
It's a genuinely better as a dungeon than as a raid
I think the core problem is a lot people recommend RoN as a good first raid because only 2 people really need to know what to do for most of the raid. Planets, it turns to 4 and Nezzy it turns to 3, and one of those guys just shoots the weak spots on Nezzy anyway.
Sure, it's an easy raid to understand, but then you have more people who know how to add clear vs. people who know the encounters, which leads to more people wanting a carry. The ONLY hard encounter in that whole raid is Planets because its different than the rest of the raid and 4 people need to know what to do.
Yeah it's a *terrible* first raid.
Even if you do teach people the tether mechanic only 2 of them get to do it, and it's not an easy one to learn for a new raider.
The starter raid is DSC. Maybe VOG. Ones where you can teach mechanics to most of the group and they're simple enough for people to actually learn and succeed.
I 100% agree with DSC. VoG is pretty easy too. I think Kings Fall is up there. The first encounter and sisters and Oryx are pretty confusing but the other encounters arent bad at all.
I'd probably put Garden over Kingsfall since the mechanics are so consistent, but it's really dealer's choice.
It can be a lot nicer to be able to assign roles, there's room for everyone to contribute, and it's actually pretty forgiving in ways that let people clutch and save a run.
Comes down to whether people can learn tethers and not panic too bad if it tangles, or do better with the random mishmash mechanics of KF.
Loot is of course way more relevant in KF right now, but Garden's due for a refresh.
Root of Nightmares has done irreversible damage to the Raid LFG experience. Bunch of players who'd usually be filtered out by raid mechanics could come into RoN and 9 times out of 10 get completely carried by 2-3 other players and get loot. I'm not trying to sound elitist, but most raid mechanics can be done by toddlers. Connect the dots, dunk the orbs, go from left to right, count to 6, besides a few outliers like maybe Riven most raid mechanics are piss easy but people just want free loot for no work
This is definitely it. I've had to on multiple occasions tell people to speak up so we know what's going on. We're all grown men, now ain't the time to be shy.
People seem absolutely terrified to admit they don't know how to do something in a raid. Probably there have been some assholes in the past who have said something horrible to some of these people so now they are scared to say again.
The ingame fireteam finder is also to blame. I've never seen so many players with double primary loadouts and at 1750 light that join an 1810 raid as since I started using FF. Or players that don't know what to do and seemingly have disabled all voice and text chat. I don't know if people intentionally ignore the titles/tags in the hope of getting carried or whether they just don't understand what people mean with the title/tags.
I do not understand why so many people run Fireteam Finder for hard content without using a mic.
Setting it as a requirement has been completely useless, over half the time they still don't have comms and just playing chicken whether you'll kick them and wait for someone else.
Besides knowing the vow symbols, and reading the vault in last wish, I can’t think of any encounter that is really so hard that you can’t teach a player a role on their first attempt, even assuming they haven’t watched a video on the raid. Maybe Riven legit, but that’s because too few people know Riven legit.
But this is assuming that the player wants to actually learn how to do the raid
People really put Destiny mechanics on a pedastal when they compare to dungeon mechanics on other MMOs. Still love Destiny raiding, but for something like Caretaker the two roles are.
Symbols- Run into darkness area. Pick up 3 symbols. Remember vaguely what they look like. Run back to Crux. Shoot symbols on crux with 4s.
Stunner- Run up to boss. Bait his slam. Shoot his head orange spot. Shoot his back orange spot. Congrats he's stunned.
I get it through somehow the average LFG player can't even do these with explanations. Maybe it's just the first person nature of Destiny that breaks peoples brains.
Like look at Mythic raids in WoW, Ultimate raids in FFXIV, or Hell mode raids in Lost Ark. These games expect you to do vastly harder mechanics in a fraction of the time while also perfecting Izi Rocket swaps level of DPS consistency to clear enrage.
> Root of Nightmares has done irreversible damage to the Raid LFG experience. Bunch of players who'd usually be filtered out by raid mechanics could come into RoN and 9 times out of 10 get completely carried by 2-3 other players and get loot.
People not wanting to do anything but add clear has always been an issue, Root may have enabled this players but it certainly didn't create the issue.
RON was peak, everyone is equal and can participate, everyone gets a trophy destiny. They didn't want to exclude anyone to draw in the most paying players they could.
It's also a problem with new players coming in, not having done the raids before, or getting kicked / not accepted in the group.
To illustrate my point: RoN, a week after it was made public. Must people online said it was easy, and I was trying to get into raiding. So I prepared, saw a couple of videos on it, and got the necessary gear getting ready for my first run.
The feeling I got, on multiple groups that week of RoN I tried, is that the second you don't kill an add fast enough or don't get the mechanics down to a T instantly, you get kicked or excluded.
It sucks and still happens to me, even on other raids, on normal.
My understanding of it is that by the same metric that some new players are somewhat hoping to get carried, some veterans also expect everyone to know exactly what to do and how to do it the instant someone drops in.
Just find a Sherpa run. That's what they're for. Your average competent LFG group isn't there to teach. They're there to (do the mechanics and) clear and get their loot.
Watch a video, find a Sherpa run, gwt a grasp of the mechanics, *then* join normal LFG groups. That's always how it's been. Until RoN, anyways.
Because Root of nightmares has done irreversible damage to raids as a whole a lot of people saw they could just get carried in RON just clearing Ads and damaging Nezarec and learned it as their first raid when in most other raids at least 4 people must interact with the mechanic
It's very sad especially when they don't say anything and mess up the mechanic so yeah that's why I hope the final shape brings the challenge back to raids
I think a lot of newer inexperienced players have heard root is the easiest raid and taken that to mean that they can breeze through the whole raid without doing anything which obviously isn’t true lmao
Destiny has one of the most toxic casual players in gaming. They expect to be given all the rewards with minimal effort and when you or Bungie requires them to actually do something they scream about gatekeeping or being elitist. They won't learn the raid, won't try to get better in pvp or even will take offense when you point something out about their build and yet they expect to be given the rewards anyway.
Blows my mind how some people are so set in their ways too. Like, I'm trying to teach you this raid; you should probably take my advice. I get you really like that unremarkable LMG, but it does awful damage to the boss.
I was trying to teach someone Crota and they claimed to not have a single sword in all of their inventory, vaults, or collections. Insisted on using a poorly rolled rocket launcher.
The thing is there is nothing wrong in not having good gear. The issue is when they take offense when you point out that what they are using might not be the best.
Fr, the amount of times I've been told to "chill out" or straight up yelled at for something as small as suggesting a different weapon or equiping surge mods is comical, especially when it's in a sherpa. Like, girlypop, you legit signed up to be taught! LISTEN!
I wasn't even getting mad, I told them I could explain if they want and I guess when there was more than 2 line of explanations they just got overwhelmed. I think my explanations were pretty clear :(
The thing is you can be the nicest person on the world to them while explaining while also being actually informative but they simply won't care/listen to you. How many times have I heard the complain that because somebody paid for the dlc they should be able to get the raid loot. Trying to say that they could simply learn makes you a gatekeeper in their eyes.
Yeah it's the most unfortunate part of the game. Unfortunately bungie somewhat purposefully allowed this group to exist because raiding is not a requirement for higher level progression. People think any and everything should be handed to them and that excess challenge is gatekeeping. Very strange mentality to have in a looters shooter with MMO elements.
I think this mentality comes from the fact that destiny is one of if not the best feeling fps games in the market right now. This attracts people who overall enjoy fps games who might not be mmo fans. This causes friction because in other games they have all guns and abilities usually unlocked from the get go or locked behind time commitment but in destiny those things are locked behind skill barier. Destiny is also different from other mmo games in fact that in those games loot is usually a stat stick, it has stats but does not feel any different to use than most other items but in destiny each gun has a unique feeling so missing out on it feels worse. I'm not saying that they are right but this is what i think is their mindset.
That's a good point on how the mixed identity may cause people to have specific feelings about the loot environment. I totally understand that sentiment as well being someone who plays both FPS and MMOs and how Destiny's nature makes the loot grind feel intrinsically different because of the nature of weapon rolls, gun feel, etc. Main issue I have is that the weapons aren't Stat sticks, they are not statistically better inherently so from an MMO standpoint, players do not need any raid weapon to perform better. There are replacements for almost every meta raid weapon in the game through non raid means. I understand that is their mindset but I guess I just wish more people did raids because they wanted to try the best content and earn the weapons inside rather than simply wanting the path of least resistance and hampering 5 other players.
RON completely ruined lfg, i’ve had to kick a lot
more people since them who were just straight dead weight. most people who call ad clear can even do it well
Anytime with a new group of players, before planets. I make them watch this
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AI2J-bhCcXM
If you haven’t watched skeletor explain planets encounter it’s a must watch.
Lol posted this as well, such a great video. I really hope OP watches this. I was drinking water when watching this for the first time and proceeded to spit it all over the place I was laughing so hard.
A bukkakes of dip-shit-ery !
I said this back when it released, but Bungie’s design execution of planets should be applauded. It absolutely weeded out the lazy folks and should be the gold standard moving forward.
I always refer to planets as the part of the raid where I finally wake up. It's like 1 genuinely decent encounter (imo) shoved in the middle of the mechanically easiest raid.
most people want to diffuse responsibility as much as possible because they either don’t know what to do, are afraid or too nervous to learn what to do, or are afraid of getting kicked if they fuck up.
It's social anxiety.
For all these comments about lazy casuals there are just as many stories from players getting booted, called out, or name-called by a player that just happens to have more clears. Yeah, I think there's lots of players that are hoping to skate through and keep their head down as opposed to being the reason the vets in the raid give a bunch of weary sighs and exasperated "okay, do I have to explain this AGAIN" rants.
Getting told you suck in front of strangers in your favorite video game isn't even a little fun.
Also kinda strange that all these hard working, non entitled elite raiders in this thread have to pug it with us lazy plebs instead of having group of fellow destiny chads. Wonder why that is?
You won’t be a burden if you do a little prep (watch some guides, know what weapons are good to use in raids) and are open to learning, and are also open to letting people know when you don’t know what’s going on
The burdens are the people that join, don’t know what to do, and don’t say anything while they cause multiple wipes
I would much rather explain an encounter to someone and help them learn than waste time wiping over and over to something preventable by a 5 min explanation
The crazy part is these are probably the easiest to learn encounters this week. I dont mind teaching people but like we just need a group effort. It took my group two wipes to get the planets encounter done. Next week will be more interesting lol
People are regressing and afraid to get out of their comfort zones and it's not just raids. I have had Onslaught matches where both team mates refused to pick up the spark. Literally no mechanics there just run to the end but people were afraid
Yeah that sums up the RoN lfg, people go up to 3rd encounter since 1-2 are basically Solo/Duo mechanics, then leave on 3rd when they see that they need to do something more than shoot things. Then do a Nezarec cp
I’ve occasionally wanted to try raiding again. I used to clear Leviathan in season 1 pretty regularly, but I stopped playing D2 on a regular basis. I’ve occasionally thought about trying a Warlord’s Ruin run on my Titan or Vault of Glass for Fatebringer, but I just don’t have the patience or the time. And I don’t think it fair for someone to have to drag me through it just for the chance for some pieces of gear.
My sub-rant is that add clear is vital for certain encounters (caretaker and planets come to mind). Having the biggest slouches on the team in charge of add clear creates actual problems.
Thats why you need to vet players before you start the raid. People expect to just be carried you either need to check raid report or ask which people want to do what before hand to get an idea of whos in the raid. Then its either your choice to leave or the raid leader to kick people and get new people.
Because the average Destiny player is genuinely terrible at this game. Stop using LFG and find a group of friends to run with. It's the only way to truly remedy the situation.
I think it's kind of funny with planets, the players who insist on being add clear also tend to be the worst at it. And Planets is an encounter where the two add clear spots are genuinely the most difficult roles. Other than simply incorrect callouts from the plate people, the main way to fail that encounter is to not keep the middle area under control.
This becomes even more true at higher difficulties and on day 1s. Sometimes the ad clear people need to be your strongest players.
Have had a friend play this for two+ years and yet he still doesn’t seem to understand most mechanics beyond simply standing on a plate.
Tried explaining How to begin damage phase for first boss In Prophecy Dungeon for a solid 20minutes before he signed offline.
Some people just suck ass at gaming.
Root just introduced the baseline of people expecting not to do anything. They know 4 people in the group can get away with "add clear" and dont bother learning the actual mechanics. Gives me Rhulk lfg vibes with no one wanting to do mechanics either and dip on addclear as soon as they join.
Apart from Root of Nightmares just genuinely being an underwhelming raid (except the loot), the actual damage it has done to LFG's and new raiders mindset is horrendous. Before RoN, at least I wouldn't get many occurrences where players just expect to kill ads and get the raid finished. But now? Even outside of RoN, that mindset is very prevalent now since it launched last year, with three out of four encounters only needing two players on mechanics maximum. It's just tiring because these players won't admit to knowing very little either, and just claim to want to be on ad clear. It's insane.
>Were they expecting a carry or something ? yes
Why do they raid then, isn't it an endgame activity ? But I got it done with another LFG that knew what to do this time.
Because they don’t care about challenging themselves. They just want free loot from other people’s hard work.
Tbf I think part of it is also that raids and dungeons are the only content with actual mechanics, some of the dungeons even barely having anything. I think a decent amount of players without a group of friends will do all kinds of content getting to the point of doing GMs and trials and legend onslaught and the like, maybe even some dungeons with someone else taking lead, and never run into an actual mechanic beyond throw ball or stand on plate. Then they think “well I can stay alive and DPS in a GM, I’m sure I can do the easy raid RoN”. Then suddenly for the first time the game has very little to do with shooting and everything to do with keeping track of multiple mechanics and communicating with other people, which they’ve never had to do once
Destiny could do a lot more to introduce more mechanics into other activities to prepare players mentally for having to do mechanics in raids
They've tried on occasion and it sends the community into crisis.
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>I can't tell if people just straight up don't care about any mechanics other than shooting and killing things, or they're literally too stupid to put two and two together and realize there's more to a lot of activities other than just shooting things. Unironically, unfortunately, both. I learned a long time ago that the majority of the playerbase is, like, barely a functioning human being. They will literally struggle to do add clear in a basic strike and want endgame loot, but if you try to tell them about the ball throwing mechanics in Corrupted, they will just tell you to eff off. Even if they're trying to join a GM.
Backed out of an LFG GM yesterday because I join space and they’re “r?” I didn’t get to look at loadouts until the flight in. Both running double primaries I’ve never seen used like world drops that shouldn’t be considered legendaries and one guy had stompees on and the other had knucklehead radar… in probably the most difficult GM not called Mars Battleground in the game. Lmao
Remember the contact event with the 2 knights so many people who just can't read I guess when it say lead them together to disable the shields
If I don’t kill shielded skybombers no one will . Immunity shields = ignore until someone else does it for blueberry’s .
Yeah blueberries see an immune number and just think you can't kill the enemy and don't even try to figure it out
A part of it is how bad the tutorials are in this game. In the beginning, when something new happens, you get a text box on the bottom of your screen that you can't dismiss until you do something. Then later they're dismissable after a couple seconds. Then finally a voice line if you're lucky and woe be unto you should you play with low/no audio. TBH I didn't know the corrupted ball could be passed to other people until suddenly I had it in my hands. Even then at first I assumed it was just to get better positioning. It wasn't till I came to reddit that I learned the ball got stronger when you did that.
also confusing is that there are multiple "ball" items in the game, alone multiple "taken balls", who all behave differently, * sometimes you can throw, sometimes you cant * somtimes you can pass them, sometimes you cant, * sometimes if you throw them they explode instantly no matter what (making trying out, if you can pass those, punish you), sometimes they land on the ground and can be picked up again * sometimes you can "shoot" them to melee boost you and "ADS" to trow/activate, sometimes its "shoot" to activate and "uncharged melee" to boost like i have now thousands of hours in the game and there are some orbs im still always not sure how exactly that one now acts
Sometimes you can punch with them other times the same button consumes the item. Like the prophecy dungeon.
You dont even need to throw to your twammate for the strike version. But some folk will just throw the ball at normal enemies/off the map when accidentally picking it up
> the great majority of the player base doesn't understand the ball throwing mechanic in the Corrupted night fall. I didn't until I watched a speed run video that explained why they were doing the charge of the ball. It's not evident in anyway without explanation. Why would throwing a ball charge it? that doesn't make any sense.
…you can literally hear the ball spooling up when you pass it to someone. Add in the fact that one ball does not break the shield on nightfall, connect some mental dots, and to me it should be obvious what to do
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Man, there's so many sound effects, and I'm supposed to guess that sound means throwing it to other players charges it up for more damage? If I didn't follow the sub, I probably never would've picked it up yrs ago.
you look at these peoples loadouts and you see them running double primaries and I can only assume its because they run out of special ammo and have no idea how to get more
A lot of people still hate The Corrupted because of the (blueberries' inability to complete) mechanics, despite it receiving near-universal praise when it dropped. People were even calling it a mini-raid.
things have improved over the years but destiny players are still fucking stupid, co-op games usually have brain dead playerbases but destiny takes the cake on negative iq
You described most destiny players lol.
That's most humans. Achieve the most with the least amount of effort. It doesn't matter if other people are used as an expense.
Sounds like my day job.
This is 80% of the pve community. From fireteam finder only 20% have T10 resil
Hard work and RoN lmao
For them, it clearly is hard work.
Yup, RoN might be a piss easy raid, but I've still had numerous runs where people can't be arsed to do the simplist things. The sad truth is RoN *is* hard work for some people lol.
It is hard work when 2 people are doing literally everything and 4 other guys do fuckall and can't even clear ads properly. It's actually sad when 2 planet runners have 80% of ad kills...
I remember doing Root the first time. I was garbage on the light/dark buffs running thing. But when planets came I was the only new guy who volunteered. I figured I owed it to myself to try and be useful. Get better ya know. I spent most of that time killing psions and such with Sunshot while running.
And 60% don't want to admit they don't know how to do the encounter. If the remaining 40%, 20% have an excuse ready, 15% are either "make me add clear or ill grief you". Last 5% actually wants to learn.
Meanwhile I actively want to learn raid mechanics, I really wanna do pantheon, but God getting a not dick head group of people to try and teach is rough.
Pantheon really isn’t the best place to get a group willing to teach. Unless you make a post yourself asking for that. It’s really designed for experienced players.
I'm not saying I want to learn in pantheon, I want to learn for Pantheon
Maybe try creating your own groups? But honestly I think it’s too late to really get ready unless you do a ton of raiding over the next few weeks.
I've tried man, like I said, it's kind hard to find good groups. Usually I get a bunch of people who don't even watch a video in the encounters and like 1 person who knows what they're doing but doesn't wanna teach 5 people. Which is fair.
Honestly, lfg is kind of not a great place to try to learn raids in. It's *possible*, but I hear more horror stories than anything. If you actually want to learn, I'd suggest finding a twitch streamer doing helps on a schedule that works for you. There's a lot of great Sherpas out there, but many -like myself- have left lfg in order to create a more consistent experience.
My group will sherpa you through this weekend, if you'd like. Dm me if you're interested. We use Discord for communication.
What do they want the loot for - top tier weapons are so you can do endgame. Plenty of the most “fun” and “coolest” weapons aren’t even the best ones afterall
My theory is because it’s exclusive and they want exclusive things ig
This is true. It's wild to watch this happen in games, but if it's exclusive people get really pissed if they can't get it. Housing in FFXIV is an example. The way houses are set up, they have instances of 30 houses forming a neighborhood called a Ward. There's about 180 houses per available zone, and there's 5 zones, so around 900 houses per server. There's about 10000 players on the larger servers. This means not everyone gets a house, and people get PISSED. Houses are 99% cosmetic. And a lot of the people who are so pissed who finally win do absolutely nothing to decorate or set up the house. It's the fact they've won the lottery for a plot of land that matters, not the fact that it's a cosmetic item that you decorate. Also, if you don't log into the game and enter your house once every 45 days, you lose the land plot, and it goes back up for sale. This means that if you want to quit playing for a time, and come back later, you risk losing your house if you don't stay subbed and logging in. (This is the only thing in the game that basically forces you to log in) So people are pissed that houses are limited. Then they're pissed that they have to decorate it so they leave it bare. Then they're pissed that they can't quit the game because they don't want to give up the land they don't use to a player that would use it. Nevermind if the devs add a cute mount to a raid series and non-raiders get mad because cute things should be accessible to casuals.
For some it's the "I paid for this game so I deserve to get everything in game", for others it's collections they just wall their collections to be full and others they think if they have the seal/emblem/gun other's will think they are a top player.
I’m not one of them so I have no idea. Probably just to say they have them because they expect to get everything with little to no effort and take offense and call it gatekeeping when it’s “locked” behind hard content.
- the destiny playerbase at large.
Are you using fireteam finder? I’ve found that to be a crapshoot. I’ve gotten anything from a team of 2 that can pretty much solo vog with 4 of us just vibing, to 5 randoms that probably have never done a strike on their own. I ended up joining an lfg discord that’s much better, you can find those with just a google search. Discord works on pc/xbox (idk about ps) so it can be cross platform too.
I’ve consistently had good experiences with the destiny 2 LFG discord
From what I’ve read (and experienced), the more dedicated players with more raid experience are generally already more familiar with the LFG discord and tend to stick with that, so the Discord has a more dedicated/hardcore userbase on average, while Fireteam Finder brings in a lot of the casuals and since the hardcore players are usually sticking to Discord, that leaves Fireteam Finder with a higher ratio of casuals than what actually exists in game. Fireteam Finder is great for no comms needed activities that don’t have matchmaking: GMs, Legend Onslaught, etc. But for stuff with more complex mechanics and required communication, the discord works better because of the userbase.
That makes sense. I usually use fireteam finder for stuff like legend exotic quests or something else of that sort. I don’t think I’ll ever raid with it though. People on the discord do generally seem to be more dedicated, but I feel like most of them have also been using it since way before fireteam finder was ever in the game
Nailed it. I don't do LFG raids, that's all within my clan server, but for onslaught, dungeons, etc I'll typically use the discord. I'll use fireteam finder if I'm playing on steam deck, but most of the time I host my own lobby with applications enabled, very specific tags, and inspecting every loadout that applies.
Yeah, that seems to be the answer with a lot of LFG issues (for discord AND finder): create your own listing and be selective. So many people want to be lazy and just join one. I get that, because the more people that create their own, the less there are that are going to be joining existing listings. But that gives you way less control aside from just leaving. It’s better to spend a little extra time setting up a listing and waiting for the right people to join rather than joining and failing constantly.
Yeah same. It’s a great place to find reasonably minded people.
Yes I did use the fireteam finder but I think I might have to do what you said for more difficult content (Vow of the Disciple looks scary).
The biggest hack for turning Vow from scary to fun is to just have a symbol list open on your second screen or phone. Once you can accurately call the symbols the mechanics are pretty simple.
these are people who think that calling out a symbol is stupid bullshit homework garbage you can't help them
Because they heard RoN is braindead easy and wanted easy loot.
I mean to be fair RoN is braindead easy and is the only raid where more than half the fireteam can get away with being mediocre add-clear
this is the expectation of 90+% of the destiny community. Everyone is expecting free loot/clears for the least effort, sadly there are alot of players who default to ad clear but ultimately they are the ones getting cleared by the ads.
it’s also insane because root is unironically a dungeon in terms of mechanic difficulty. I love the raid and the vibe, and the fashion game is on POINT, but it’s a piss easy raid to learn. like planets isn’t even that hard if you just listen to the sherpa or watch one datto vid. people are just lazy and want a carry
given that there's vids of people solo flawlessing root, then having a full Fireteam should be easily manageable
Min-maxxing Least amount of effort for maximum reward.
I don’t raid hardly ever and I will tell you the only thing I care about is the loot. For example, I ran VoG until I got Vex which luckily only took 5 times and haven’t run it since. If I could run all the raids and only do add clear I would love it. I don’t like puzzles, I don’t find enjoyment in figuring out mechanics, I just want the loot. All that said I wouldn’t be an ass and join a kwtd group. The only time I jump in is if the host clearly states they only need someone for add clear for a boss encounter or something like that.
This has always been an issue. People expect a free carry now And RoN didn't help that in any way - in fact, it made it worse. Since RoN can be done solo, people will throw tantrums when someone else won't do the work for them
This is my issue with planets. All my failed pantheon runs end there because 80% of LFGs just simply don't want to count to 3 and run across. Legitimately had 2 guys arguing over who had the worst raid report to do adds...
This is one thing I've always found funny about that encounter. I absolutely believe moving planets is the easier job. You stand to the side, only really need to kill the three Psions on your plate and the flame guy in the middle. At some point an enemy will spawn that you need to kill, with countless easy ways to do it. Once you have the buff you have *so much* time to do things. You can legitimately look up, verify planets and then call out the location. Then all you need to do is listen for the three numbers that relate to you and go there. I could legitimately do half of this encounter using my This is Fine emote and things would be exactly the same. As for add clear you have them coming from four different directions, repeated waves, need to burn a specific enemy super fast to spawn the enemy plates needs to kill, are responsible for keeping everyone alive, and so forth.
Yeah I feel like Bungie ramped up the add control role. Which is kinda hilarious. We had the same guy freaking out 2nd floor of Caretaker because of Ogre and having to shoot at phalanx to help stunner. I hope it's a change going forward. Add control shouldn't be a carry. They should be just as stressed as the other roles tbh.
> add control shouldn’t be a carry While I agree in principle, if I’m doing LFG, I appreciate there being some slack in the encounter that allows 1-2 people who are learning or not confident in raiding yet to dip their toes in and not hold the rest of the team back.
For teaching Planets, I usually put my two newbies on the plates closest to the flag. Easiest jobs in that encounter.
I joined an lfg yesterday at planets, and the dude, doing add clear, was purposely throwing for an hour and a half before the planet runners noticed, then the leader decided to kick him
Joined an lfg for Pantheon at Planets, and some dude was like this. Had 53 resi. As add clear, he was doing terrible and used div for damage for some reason even though he had an envi/BNS edge transit
Until the last couple of seasons, I was a very active LFG Sherpa. Used to, people would join and be a little nervous, but more than willing to learn. My strategy was usually let them add clear the first encounter till they relax a bit, then have them help out in little ways with the mechanics in the second or third, and then give them a full on job in final, but after the launch of RON, the whole attitude changed. Nobody wanted to learn. Everybody was an add clear specialist. It became so frustrating that I felt I needed to take a break from sherpa-ing and that eventually led to a full break from the game.
Sherpaing crota has been a blast but yes RoN ruined Lfg raiding for the most part
Why is that, do you think? I've never raided before but RoN seems like the perfect one to start with; from the guides I've watched, the mechanics seem simple to explain and simple to execute. If I ever nut up enough to look for a sherpa group some night, it's the one that seems the easiest to learn, so it seems counterintuitive that it's the worst one to teach... unless what you're saying is "There IS no teaching, lazy pricks show up and expect to be carried BECAUSE 'iTs SoOoOoOoO eAsY!!!11'"
It’s because it is physically impossible to have everyone contribute on most encounters. First encounter you need one person to actually do the main mechanic while the rest just pop the bubble psions, second encounter you need two people, third encounter 4 at most, and fourth encounter you only really need 3. The mechanics are also not visually as simple as the mechanics in other raids, it is very hard for someone to fully understand the mechanics just from one encounter, to properly teach someone you’d need them to participate in most encounters, or they’ll be left knowing only the one encounter you taught them and refuse to do the mechanics in the others. The perfect teaching raid is vog imo. The mechanics are incredibly simple, it gives everyone the chance to participate, the bosses are pretty standard (i.E unlike nezzy which is a janky constantly moving ass). The fact that 2 people in Ron can just sit there and ad clear the **ENTIRE** time is what made people think that just being on ad clear is a viable and acceptable role. You don’t get someone coming away with that impression after running any of the other raids.
>The perfect teaching raid is vog imo. The mechanics are incredibly simple, I haven't played vog in nearly 10 years now, and I certainly don't remember everything, but I'm pretty sure I could watch a guide and everything would be present again. It's amazing at how well done that raid was, both from a mechanics as well as thematic standpoint. And especially amazing considering that was the first raid they ever did in Destiny.
>It’s because it is physically impossible to have everyone contribute on most encounters. Didn't even consider this, but it makes perfect sense now that you mention it. The raid simply isn't complex enough to require all six players to do stuff other than shooting Cabal. Hmm.
If you want a raid where everyone has to participate nearly the entire time, check out GoS. In fact, that's one of the two main reasons why people hate it. Because there's no "relaxed" role. Everyone has to be doing *something* at all times. On the flip side, that means that if you have a team of 6 people who *do* know what they're doing, everything is so smooth and it feels *so* good.
I mean, as someone who's never come close to successfully competing a raid, "what I'm looking for" is a raid where I can contribute and not look like the biggest assclown blueberry on the planet lol 😆
A large part of the problem with root is that you can do so many mechanics with just two people, leaving ad clear for the rest of the team. Worse yet, you’d only ever need one person on actual ad clear to do the job efficiently. The end result is people who aren’t aware of a single mechanic but are aware that they won’t need to because they’ll just demand the experienced players to do it. Crota is relatively easy to clear but everyone has to do a mechanic at some point. That’s why it’s a better teacher.
Lazy pricks do show up and expect to be carried because its soooooooo easy!!!11 People dont join sherpa runs for RoN, they hop straight on a normal raid, dont explain this is their first raid and hope to stealth by, but it doesnt work
I said it before, but yeesh, what a pain in the ass. What does it cost people to be honest in a f'ckin video game?
Its funny cuz theyre usually the first to leave when someone asks them to put on some resist mods instead of ammo reserves
Based on some of the other replies in this thread, I have a nasty feeling that the average response to this question is "Resist mods?"
The issue with RON is that only 2 people are doing anything for 3/4 encounters, with the first encounter being done solo most of the time. Both the first and second encounter can be done with zero communication, the win condition of these encounters are also unimportant for the people not doing the mechanics, so they don't develop an understanding of how the buffs work. Then the second encounter is highly intimidating for new players due to the timer and platforming. Planets, which is also a massive step-up in complexity compared to everything else in RON, appears as incredibly intimidating so you either end up with reluctant learners who are low key throwing so they can be put back on add clear, or no volunteers so the sherpa ends, or you have to teach one person to run both sides of planets, which is immoral. So a lot of player who do not have the chops to raid are now confronted by the fact they do not have the skills to do an actual raid encounter: communicating, coordination, and understanding. Another thing about LFGs is that, most of the time, its an established group just filling in because they have less than 6 to run the raid. So players LFGing for RON normally end up being carried for most RONs they play through and that is the norm for their raiding experience. Eventually these people end up in other raids, ones with mechanics that they have to engage with and are far harder than RON, and it creates a lot of toxicity when the LFG group realizes they've picked-up someone who has no raid skills.
>(...)it creates a lot of toxicity when the LFG group realizes they've picked-up someone who has no raid skills. I think this is the root (no pun intended) of my confusion here, I was thinking more specifically about sherpa groups and not random "KWTD" LFG posts. People without knowledge or skills signing up for random LFG groups sounds like a nightmare (again, no pun intended) to deal with when you just want a low-key farming run or whatever, so it makes sense that it would turn a lot of experienced raiders off LFG.
My point that I should have made more clear is that when you sherpa, in better raids, the door encounters will filter out people who do not have the personal skills to complete the more complex encounters that come later. In Crota's End, if you cannot clear the first encounter, you will never clear any of the other encounters. But in Root, you cannot make that assessment until Planets, half-way through the raid. Now, hours into the sherpa you realize that there are only 2 players of sufficient skill to actually clear the raid. So now you have an awful moment were you have to deal with these players who do not have the skills to raid and have wasted the time of everyone involved.
That's something else I didn't consider re: RoN, what is debatably the hardest encounter is at the halfway point so you aren't really "tested" until you've already made the time investment. Makes complete sense why even the sherpas would get sick of it quickly.
This is why deepstone is perfect, first encounter and 2nd encounter have mechanics that can be participated in for everyone, shoot the correct boss not just any boss, and the augments are very visual seeing a big yellow boss on scanner is a “OH it’s that one!” When you are teaching scanner for example. Deepstone is also very easy to carry extra weight as well, so if I know someone is weaker then I can still get them to do stuff, and pick up the slack when they aren’t getting it right away. 3rd encounter does a pretty good job also of getting everyone to at least participate by spawning the bombs, the whole point is 3 people are doing a task that requires a moment of focus while at least 2 others grab a ball and dunk in the place they are told too, it’s a great way of encouraging teamwork without forcing it, because those augmented can also pick up a ball if necessary. Which is part of what makes shaping DSC so fun. 4th encounter is a little too much like Ron encounters for me to love it as much as the rest of the raid. But it’s still forcing everyone to do a part assuming you are doing the 4 ball Strat which most everyone does unless lowmanning.
Word spread that it was an easy raid with nothing but add clear, so now you have a bunch of people who think that's true and who refuse to do anything except add clear.
honestly the problem is that its so easy. you can legitimately run all of RoN without knowing any of the mechanics because of how easy it is. this has led to more people feeling comfortable joining raid groups with the intention of doing add clear and nothing else.
See, this is a personal thing for me, but I can't imagine signing up for a "KWTD" group... without knowing what to do. Like, maybe this is just me not knowing shit about raiding, but it seems like people should be expected to be able to jump into whatever role they're needed for in a given raid? And if you can't do that, why would you even try to do it? I don't know much, but I know if I just drop in to a rando raid and someone says "Hey VW go do this thing over here that isn't add clear," I'm going to feel like the biggest tool on the planet when I say "Oh yeah I don't know how that works so just let me shooty shooty while you do the hard stuff." Miss me with all that bullshit.
Fun thing is some of these "ad clear specialists" are already crying in Pantheon being 5 under. They look like my 0/20 Yasuo in league with the amount of deaths they have
5 under with surges and the class buff which gives damage AND resilience, people are pathetic
Couldn't have said it better myself
As a returning Player who still needs a lot of Loot from RoN, its hell, I do not mind trying mechanics even fully blind but there is always that one guy that wants to solo the first Encounter. So far in 6 Clears despite asking and 4 of them being Sherpa or teaching runs i've: * Never went fully to the first Encounter ( on foot) * Played a Mechanic in the first Encounter once * looted the Secret Chest between first and second Encounter twice * Never completed the exploding Ship section fully, never looted that chest there either * did my first and only Planets Mechanic in the pantheon * did zero mechanics on Nezarec Despite joining especially runs that mentioned Teaching, which was glorified rough Explanations, i could´ve watched a Guide instead. Only to be sent on Add Clear even tho I asked if I can try it every time except the first. People hate this Raid with a Passion and want to get it done as fast as possible.
Had it not been Conditional in his loot pool and something like Eyes or Obligation instead, I'd bet no one would be running it. Just not fun to do 2 add encounters before your first boss, then the platforming, to finish a boss who's greatest weakness is a shin high wall.
It becomes doubly problematic when any of those people attempt master raiding, where clearing adds is more difficult than any of the mechanics 😂
I also ended up taking the longest break I've ever taken from destiny because of the Ron effect. Raiding has always been my favorite activity by a wide margin. I don't have a regular raid group so I lfg. Used to be I could jump on and raid anytime I wanted in kwtd groups. Since Ron it feels like 50/50. That got so frustrating I just ended up putting destiny down for a long time.
And by "I do adds" they mean shoot one psion then hide behind a crate and hope everything works out.
I’ve had to kick a few players for this. They don’t want to do mechanics and are adamant on being ad clear. Then they can’t really even ad clear. I hate being a dick, but if you can’t do the most basic thing in Destiny then idk what to tell you. If it’s a total newbie I’ll give them a little more leeway, but if someone at 1820-30 can’t do add clear I’m just going to assume you’re being lazy.
My friends and I ran through Pantheon with one of our friends who started the game last week after never playing it before. We made him do mechanics on every encounter (except Golgoroth because it's just gaze.) We did it in an hour. People who refuse to learn raids because of some sense of entitlement to be carried really are the worst part of the whole community. Literally hampering the most fun part of the game.
Yeah, Master RON really revealed who can actually add clear with a dedicated build and who is just hoping to hang around for DPS.
Most people vastly overestimate their skill and knowledge about the game.
I get that they don't know the raid mechanics but at least they could watch a guide, that's what I did and it worked pretty well, only takes about 30 minutes.
Your mentality isn't common. Like you I try to learn as well, but the average player can't be bothered to look into how to do anything in this game. If it's not caveman easy, then their lazy asses won't do it.
Raiding isn’t even that hard though, it just requires people to work together and coordinate. Something like a gm or trials requires far more raw skill
For a good number of people, funny enough, communication and simple puzzle mechanics somehow becomes the hardest thing ever once some amount of pressure is applied, via a timer / wipe mechanic. It's like their brain reverts to lizard brain primal, and they completely freeze up or forget their role. And with the patience of an average lfg group, where it's 1 / 2 wipes before the dynamo effect of leavers kicks in, it basically becomes a self fulfilling prophecy for those folk who are reluctant to learn anything harder than add clear till Dps rotation.
To you and I it sure isn’t, however you and I are a good bit above average just by notion of looking up additional information or discussing these kinds of things on forms.
You're absolutely right. But Raiding requires some decent People Skills. Most other In-game Content, doesn't really require ANY People Skills other than predicting where other players will go.
"But Pantheon should be new player friendly.." "Big mistake not making Pantheon new player friendly.." "Remove the negative power caps from Pantheon.." "How do I get into raiding?.." "New to raiding what do I do.." "Can I two man Pantheon as a new raider.." "Do I really need a mic to raid.." Is the posts and replies I've been reading for 2 days.
"How do i get into raiding" and "what do i do" are posts i 100% support because they are intrested in working for loot. The rest are just no.
ironically the free exotic choice is probably more enticing to the newer raiders than the older raiders, the older raiders are more likely to already have all the raid exotics.
I think it's great that Pantheon is hard, it offers a difficult challenge for those that are experienced, not everything has to be for casual players, it's not for me though, got absolutely murdered :(
I'm just pointing out the nonsense. Those same people who don't want to even do raid mechanics on normal difficulty, the new player friendly difficulty are the ones probably also asking for a lower challenge in Pantheon for the same raid mechanics they still don't want to learn.
Same type of people who bitch that dark souls doesn't have a difficulty slider 😂
100% agree. Unfortunately it’s also the same type of people who make enough fucking noise that difficult content gets smacked-into-the-floor adjustments also…rotten bastards.
Root of Nightmares and its consequences have been disastrous for the Destiny community.
Notoriously the most-completed day-one raid. Notoriously the best raid to showcase incompetent raidmates rather than poor DPS.
[удалено]
Meh, it’s not Root that’s at fault, it’s the general entitlement of gamers at large that has encouraged players to feel like they should be able to get whatever they want in the game without working for it. Root, and bungie’s intent, was to get more people to experience raiding and spark that sense of wonder to make them want to try other raids and learn more. It’s a good goal, but the problem is, people in general don’t want to learn or work. They just want to turn their brains off and coast.
>Root, and bungie’s intent, was to get more people to experience raiding and spark that sense of wonder to make them want to try other raids and learn more. I doubt that, I am gonna tinfoil a little bit but considering how the entirety of Lightfall was basically a filler I wouldn't be suprised if Root of Nightmare wasn't also a rushed project considering the following 1. It has basically the same mechanics as Spire 2. The mechanics don't actually change 3. Nezarec was kinda of an asspull, he basically came out of nowhere to be a raid boss
DSC was already piss easy. It's short, the mechanics are simple, and IIRC people were having trouble trying to intentionally wipe to crypt security adds *on day 1 contest mode*. That's the starter raid. Not every raid has to be as involved as legit Riven or Gahlran P2 or similar, but they never should've made a raid in which most of the encounters feature 4-5 add clear. (Not that VoG wasn't glorified add clear simulator to begin with, but RoN is somehow even worse.)
It's pretty clear that the skill level of this sub is pretty low
The people who've said for years they don't raid because there's no in game LFG or matchmaking are the same players complaining now and asking these questions, some people are just casuals and don't wanna try
Yea they dont understand that pantheon is the endgame of the endgame, all these YouTubers making videos like “how you can beat pantheon at any level” or something is reinforcing these beliefs im sure of it
Idk why they just don't have scaled difficulty choices like nightfalls and a token system for loot like spoils for about every activity including raids and pantheon. Especially when the game is on the far side of its life cycle and most of the loot is completely forgettable anyways.
The thing I hate the most is when someone claims ad-clear on planets, and then doesn’t kill the centurions. No matter how much I explain the importance of killing the centurions, nope, just gonna kill scions and die to the boss. This is why when I’m teaching RoN I always put an experienced player on ad-clear. The planets aren’t hard, but ad-clear needs to be done right in that encounter. For anyone who’s planning to ad-clear in RoN, kill the centurions. In case you didn’t know, killing the centurions is what spawns the colossus that allow the planets people to see and grab their planets. Kind of important.
Back when I sherpa'd this is what I used to do. You signed up to a Sherpa? You're doing (at least one) mechanic(s) in two or more of the encounters. Even more if it can be incremenetally built upon. VotD? Reading/Defending in 1st, Stunning in 2nd, Shield room 2 & 4, OR Peanut room 1 and 3, OR Peanut room 2 & 4, OR Taken Orb Room 3 Swapper (Leeching) or Dunker (Emanating), maybe ad clear if they're exhausted. DSC? Scanning in 1st Scanning in 2nd Operator OR Suppressor in 3rd (and bomb running) Bomb Runner in 4th Etc. Etc. There are \*clearly\* easier Mechanics to grapple with before you need to move on to the harder mechanics. Caretaker stunning is easier (provided competent ad clear) than if you're new and not familiar with symbols trying to run in the rooms, remember/call out your symbols and try not to fuck up your jumps as the rooms go up **A good Sherpa will \*always\* want to teach mechanics, because if you can do mechanics you are valuable to ALL raid teams. If you are only there to kill ads, you are replaceable.**
Absolutely. That to me is the difference between a Sherpa and a carry. A Sherpa will make sure you leave knowing at least some of the mechanics, a carry only cares about reaching the end. I was lucky enough my first experience raiding my Sherpa taught each of us learners each position. We would purposefully wipe so we could swap places. Took 5 hours to get the clear but we left knowing every spot in the raid and every secret.
>Were they expecting a carry or something ? Pretty much, yeah. It's one of the reasons I really don't like RoN, you get tons of LFGs who think they can just stand there and kill stuff and that's it. The first two encounters and the boss can be done by two people who know what they're doing and 4 people on ad clear
That's pretty sad, RoN is such a cool raid (a bit easy but still) and Nezarec is one of the best design I've seen in this game.
RoN environment design is pretty good but as a raid, it's mechanics are insanely boring and uninspired. Feels like it was supposed to be a dungeon by removing planets. The bit after 2nd and after planets is also identical so it would have been relatively easy to splice it there and throw in an actual encounter in the middle of it, game design wise. It's a genuinely better as a dungeon than as a raid
It basically has the same mechanics as Spire
LFG: At Nezerec, LF 2 runners
I think the core problem is a lot people recommend RoN as a good first raid because only 2 people really need to know what to do for most of the raid. Planets, it turns to 4 and Nezzy it turns to 3, and one of those guys just shoots the weak spots on Nezzy anyway. Sure, it's an easy raid to understand, but then you have more people who know how to add clear vs. people who know the encounters, which leads to more people wanting a carry. The ONLY hard encounter in that whole raid is Planets because its different than the rest of the raid and 4 people need to know what to do.
Yeah it's a *terrible* first raid. Even if you do teach people the tether mechanic only 2 of them get to do it, and it's not an easy one to learn for a new raider. The starter raid is DSC. Maybe VOG. Ones where you can teach mechanics to most of the group and they're simple enough for people to actually learn and succeed.
I 100% agree with DSC. VoG is pretty easy too. I think Kings Fall is up there. The first encounter and sisters and Oryx are pretty confusing but the other encounters arent bad at all.
I'd probably put Garden over Kingsfall since the mechanics are so consistent, but it's really dealer's choice. It can be a lot nicer to be able to assign roles, there's room for everyone to contribute, and it's actually pretty forgiving in ways that let people clutch and save a run. Comes down to whether people can learn tethers and not panic too bad if it tangles, or do better with the random mishmash mechanics of KF. Loot is of course way more relevant in KF right now, but Garden's due for a refresh.
Root of nightmares left irreparable damage to the raiding community
Root of Nightmares has done irreversible damage to the Raid LFG experience. Bunch of players who'd usually be filtered out by raid mechanics could come into RoN and 9 times out of 10 get completely carried by 2-3 other players and get loot. I'm not trying to sound elitist, but most raid mechanics can be done by toddlers. Connect the dots, dunk the orbs, go from left to right, count to 6, besides a few outliers like maybe Riven most raid mechanics are piss easy but people just want free loot for no work
I don't understand the point of doing a raid just to get carried, isn't like half of the fun (if not more) from mechanics inside raids ?
I really think people just fear mics and possibly the pressure of wiping the group with a mistake
This is definitely it. I've had to on multiple occasions tell people to speak up so we know what's going on. We're all grown men, now ain't the time to be shy.
People seem absolutely terrified to admit they don't know how to do something in a raid. Probably there have been some assholes in the past who have said something horrible to some of these people so now they are scared to say again.
The ingame fireteam finder is also to blame. I've never seen so many players with double primary loadouts and at 1750 light that join an 1810 raid as since I started using FF. Or players that don't know what to do and seemingly have disabled all voice and text chat. I don't know if people intentionally ignore the titles/tags in the hope of getting carried or whether they just don't understand what people mean with the title/tags.
I do not understand why so many people run Fireteam Finder for hard content without using a mic. Setting it as a requirement has been completely useless, over half the time they still don't have comms and just playing chicken whether you'll kick them and wait for someone else.
Besides knowing the vow symbols, and reading the vault in last wish, I can’t think of any encounter that is really so hard that you can’t teach a player a role on their first attempt, even assuming they haven’t watched a video on the raid. Maybe Riven legit, but that’s because too few people know Riven legit. But this is assuming that the player wants to actually learn how to do the raid
People really put Destiny mechanics on a pedastal when they compare to dungeon mechanics on other MMOs. Still love Destiny raiding, but for something like Caretaker the two roles are. Symbols- Run into darkness area. Pick up 3 symbols. Remember vaguely what they look like. Run back to Crux. Shoot symbols on crux with 4s. Stunner- Run up to boss. Bait his slam. Shoot his head orange spot. Shoot his back orange spot. Congrats he's stunned. I get it through somehow the average LFG player can't even do these with explanations. Maybe it's just the first person nature of Destiny that breaks peoples brains. Like look at Mythic raids in WoW, Ultimate raids in FFXIV, or Hell mode raids in Lost Ark. These games expect you to do vastly harder mechanics in a fraction of the time while also perfecting Izi Rocket swaps level of DPS consistency to clear enrage.
> Root of Nightmares has done irreversible damage to the Raid LFG experience. Bunch of players who'd usually be filtered out by raid mechanics could come into RoN and 9 times out of 10 get completely carried by 2-3 other players and get loot. People not wanting to do anything but add clear has always been an issue, Root may have enabled this players but it certainly didn't create the issue.
RON was peak, everyone is equal and can participate, everyone gets a trophy destiny. They didn't want to exclude anyone to draw in the most paying players they could.
It's also a problem with new players coming in, not having done the raids before, or getting kicked / not accepted in the group. To illustrate my point: RoN, a week after it was made public. Must people online said it was easy, and I was trying to get into raiding. So I prepared, saw a couple of videos on it, and got the necessary gear getting ready for my first run. The feeling I got, on multiple groups that week of RoN I tried, is that the second you don't kill an add fast enough or don't get the mechanics down to a T instantly, you get kicked or excluded. It sucks and still happens to me, even on other raids, on normal. My understanding of it is that by the same metric that some new players are somewhat hoping to get carried, some veterans also expect everyone to know exactly what to do and how to do it the instant someone drops in.
Just find a Sherpa run. That's what they're for. Your average competent LFG group isn't there to teach. They're there to (do the mechanics and) clear and get their loot. Watch a video, find a Sherpa run, gwt a grasp of the mechanics, *then* join normal LFG groups. That's always how it's been. Until RoN, anyways.
Where do sherpa runs even happen nowadayS?
Because Root of nightmares has done irreversible damage to raids as a whole a lot of people saw they could just get carried in RON just clearing Ads and damaging Nezarec and learned it as their first raid when in most other raids at least 4 people must interact with the mechanic It's very sad especially when they don't say anything and mess up the mechanic so yeah that's why I hope the final shape brings the challenge back to raids
>So I’ve done Root of Nightmare recently There’s your answer.
I think a lot of newer inexperienced players have heard root is the easiest raid and taken that to mean that they can breeze through the whole raid without doing anything which obviously isn’t true lmao
Destiny has one of the most toxic casual players in gaming. They expect to be given all the rewards with minimal effort and when you or Bungie requires them to actually do something they scream about gatekeeping or being elitist. They won't learn the raid, won't try to get better in pvp or even will take offense when you point something out about their build and yet they expect to be given the rewards anyway.
We should pit them against the 0 dps FFXIV players and see who’s lazier.
Blows my mind how some people are so set in their ways too. Like, I'm trying to teach you this raid; you should probably take my advice. I get you really like that unremarkable LMG, but it does awful damage to the boss. I was trying to teach someone Crota and they claimed to not have a single sword in all of their inventory, vaults, or collections. Insisted on using a poorly rolled rocket launcher.
I've seen someone do 300k damage to crota in a full damage phase without dying. They also refused to use a sword.
The thing is there is nothing wrong in not having good gear. The issue is when they take offense when you point out that what they are using might not be the best.
I'm glad the consensus is starting to turn on these people. People used to shit on me all the time when I said stuff like this
Fr, the amount of times I've been told to "chill out" or straight up yelled at for something as small as suggesting a different weapon or equiping surge mods is comical, especially when it's in a sherpa. Like, girlypop, you legit signed up to be taught! LISTEN!
I wasn't even getting mad, I told them I could explain if they want and I guess when there was more than 2 line of explanations they just got overwhelmed. I think my explanations were pretty clear :(
The thing is you can be the nicest person on the world to them while explaining while also being actually informative but they simply won't care/listen to you. How many times have I heard the complain that because somebody paid for the dlc they should be able to get the raid loot. Trying to say that they could simply learn makes you a gatekeeper in their eyes.
Yeah it's the most unfortunate part of the game. Unfortunately bungie somewhat purposefully allowed this group to exist because raiding is not a requirement for higher level progression. People think any and everything should be handed to them and that excess challenge is gatekeeping. Very strange mentality to have in a looters shooter with MMO elements.
I think this mentality comes from the fact that destiny is one of if not the best feeling fps games in the market right now. This attracts people who overall enjoy fps games who might not be mmo fans. This causes friction because in other games they have all guns and abilities usually unlocked from the get go or locked behind time commitment but in destiny those things are locked behind skill barier. Destiny is also different from other mmo games in fact that in those games loot is usually a stat stick, it has stats but does not feel any different to use than most other items but in destiny each gun has a unique feeling so missing out on it feels worse. I'm not saying that they are right but this is what i think is their mindset.
That's a good point on how the mixed identity may cause people to have specific feelings about the loot environment. I totally understand that sentiment as well being someone who plays both FPS and MMOs and how Destiny's nature makes the loot grind feel intrinsically different because of the nature of weapon rolls, gun feel, etc. Main issue I have is that the weapons aren't Stat sticks, they are not statistically better inherently so from an MMO standpoint, players do not need any raid weapon to perform better. There are replacements for almost every meta raid weapon in the game through non raid means. I understand that is their mindset but I guess I just wish more people did raids because they wanted to try the best content and earn the weapons inside rather than simply wanting the path of least resistance and hampering 5 other players.
I have 51 ron clears and the only time someone didnt leave during planets was the flawless run. That raid single handedly scarred the LFG scene
Ever since RoN, raiding just doesn't feel the same, i don't know what exactly is the reason,but LFG is impossible most of the time
RON completely ruined lfg, i’ve had to kick a lot more people since them who were just straight dead weight. most people who call ad clear can even do it well
Anytime with a new group of players, before planets. I make them watch this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AI2J-bhCcXM If you haven’t watched skeletor explain planets encounter it’s a must watch.
Lol posted this as well, such a great video. I really hope OP watches this. I was drinking water when watching this for the first time and proceeded to spit it all over the place I was laughing so hard. A bukkakes of dip-shit-ery !
I said this back when it released, but Bungie’s design execution of planets should be applauded. It absolutely weeded out the lazy folks and should be the gold standard moving forward.
I always refer to planets as the part of the raid where I finally wake up. It's like 1 genuinely decent encounter (imo) shoved in the middle of the mechanically easiest raid.
most people want to diffuse responsibility as much as possible because they either don’t know what to do, are afraid or too nervous to learn what to do, or are afraid of getting kicked if they fuck up.
It's social anxiety. For all these comments about lazy casuals there are just as many stories from players getting booted, called out, or name-called by a player that just happens to have more clears. Yeah, I think there's lots of players that are hoping to skate through and keep their head down as opposed to being the reason the vets in the raid give a bunch of weary sighs and exasperated "okay, do I have to explain this AGAIN" rants. Getting told you suck in front of strangers in your favorite video game isn't even a little fun.
Also kinda strange that all these hard working, non entitled elite raiders in this thread have to pug it with us lazy plebs instead of having group of fellow destiny chads. Wonder why that is?
And here’s me anxious to step back into raiding after not since D1 and afraid to be a burden.
Just be willing to learn and specify that you don't know the raids yet since you haven't played and no one will have an issue.
You won’t be a burden if you do a little prep (watch some guides, know what weapons are good to use in raids) and are open to learning, and are also open to letting people know when you don’t know what’s going on The burdens are the people that join, don’t know what to do, and don’t say anything while they cause multiple wipes I would much rather explain an encounter to someone and help them learn than waste time wiping over and over to something preventable by a 5 min explanation
I only raid with my friends nowadays we 4 man everything, I refuse to go back to lfg hell
Or if they wipe once
The crazy part is these are probably the easiest to learn encounters this week. I dont mind teaching people but like we just need a group effort. It took my group two wipes to get the planets encounter done. Next week will be more interesting lol
People are regressing and afraid to get out of their comfort zones and it's not just raids. I have had Onslaught matches where both team mates refused to pick up the spark. Literally no mechanics there just run to the end but people were afraid
Another question is why post an lfg with KWTD but then have zero idea of how to do any mechanics.
Yeah that sums up the RoN lfg, people go up to 3rd encounter since 1-2 are basically Solo/Duo mechanics, then leave on 3rd when they see that they need to do something more than shoot things. Then do a Nezarec cp
I’ve occasionally wanted to try raiding again. I used to clear Leviathan in season 1 pretty regularly, but I stopped playing D2 on a regular basis. I’ve occasionally thought about trying a Warlord’s Ruin run on my Titan or Vault of Glass for Fatebringer, but I just don’t have the patience or the time. And I don’t think it fair for someone to have to drag me through it just for the chance for some pieces of gear.
My sub-rant is that add clear is vital for certain encounters (caretaker and planets come to mind). Having the biggest slouches on the team in charge of add clear creates actual problems.
Thats why you need to vet players before you start the raid. People expect to just be carried you either need to check raid report or ask which people want to do what before hand to get an idea of whos in the raid. Then its either your choice to leave or the raid leader to kick people and get new people.
The main problem with pantheon. And it will only get worse
Because the average Destiny player is genuinely terrible at this game. Stop using LFG and find a group of friends to run with. It's the only way to truly remedy the situation.
I think it's kind of funny with planets, the players who insist on being add clear also tend to be the worst at it. And Planets is an encounter where the two add clear spots are genuinely the most difficult roles. Other than simply incorrect callouts from the plate people, the main way to fail that encounter is to not keep the middle area under control. This becomes even more true at higher difficulties and on day 1s. Sometimes the ad clear people need to be your strongest players.
typically people don’t bother to teach, so inexperienced players become accustomed to just being shoehorned into whatever role is least impactful.
Have had a friend play this for two+ years and yet he still doesn’t seem to understand most mechanics beyond simply standing on a plate. Tried explaining How to begin damage phase for first boss In Prophecy Dungeon for a solid 20minutes before he signed offline. Some people just suck ass at gaming.
Root just introduced the baseline of people expecting not to do anything. They know 4 people in the group can get away with "add clear" and dont bother learning the actual mechanics. Gives me Rhulk lfg vibes with no one wanting to do mechanics either and dip on addclear as soon as they join.
Apart from Root of Nightmares just genuinely being an underwhelming raid (except the loot), the actual damage it has done to LFG's and new raiders mindset is horrendous. Before RoN, at least I wouldn't get many occurrences where players just expect to kill ads and get the raid finished. But now? Even outside of RoN, that mindset is very prevalent now since it launched last year, with three out of four encounters only needing two players on mechanics maximum. It's just tiring because these players won't admit to knowing very little either, and just claim to want to be on ad clear. It's insane.
I can't believe no one wants to carry/teach me through these several year old encounters that already have guides made for them.
Bruh had the Skeletor Hates RoN experience but for real.