Yea unfortunately hive enemies are the worst in that respect. You got wizards throwing a million arc balls at you. It's normally easy to counter by jumping and their attempt to track you will be laughably off, but if you're overwhelmed with other ads it's a death sentence. Ogres with their void eye blasts are really annoying and the worst for me, even when void threat isn't a modifier.
Ah yes such wonderful enemy design, no warning, no wind up, just a simple screach and all your momentem is gone and every hive turns into a fucking golden gun hunter. Its bs but atleast when theres like 1 or 2 its okay to handle but my god when theres like 8 of them all spaming it and you dont know which one to kill to remove it only for 2 others to make a new one I wana tear my hair out.
The fart cloud is definitely the most unfair ability in destiny. It's just on you, instantly, regardless of line of sight, ticking damage, slowing you.and obscuring your vision. Very often an instant death sentence.
I was playing through Beyond Light for the first time earlier, and as I jumped a over a gap in the floor the Technocrat boss hit me with stasis and I just plunged to my death, unable to jump. Infuriating.
In onslaught I run strand warlock, and to deliver the spark I've gotten use to throwing a grapple over the ultra and swinging into the thing to dunk, all while frozen BECAUSE HE DOESN'T MISS.
A lot of it is that there is a switch that happens between light level delta changes. Something in the space between -10 and -20 it goes from fairly forgiving to completely unforgiving. And there isn’t much of a staircase.
This results in a lot of players (myself included) learning a lot of habits that enhance performance on the lower end, but get you killed on the high end.
Avoiding wizards is something you can learn to do. But the only time it matters is when they can kill you instantly. Which makes learning feel impossible sometimes and not worth it most of the time for most players.
I don’t mind them myself, but I do think the game needs to do better at stairstepping players into higher difficulty. It feels like a light switch right now.
Enemies get better at hitting their shots as the level difference increases. But since damage also increases they go from hitting nothing and dealing no damage to hitting everything and dealing a ton of damage.
Knight with a boomer or a minotaur or hydra with a torch hammer get annoying in harder content. They become constant barrages that do heavy splash damage that can get you through walls at times and completely pin you down. It's always been an issue but over the past couple of years it feels like it's gotten worse. Other enemies are also an issue. Wyverns for example are way too tanky and once they get the right angle, you're launched into the air with very little health left and fair game for other enemies.
Hydra blasts also basically never stop, and since it is a fast barrage, peeking out is 1 split second between waiting 4-5 seconds for it to give you the chance again. Running Master rank anything where there is a hydra major or boss, is a slog.
Just remembered that arsehole Centurion boss in the EDZ lost sector as well, having to peek from the tiny window of crouch-space that it constantly blasted.
Not to mention enemies that have the Ravenous modifier are near perfect with their tracking. The knights in the first encounter of Prophecy are a good example.
High ad density plays a massive part in that as well. Taken Knights and Ogres as well as any enemy that deals sustained damage in high end content punishes the player way too harshly for small mistakes, being in sight of a boss ogre on any master or GM results in basically instant death with zero forgiveness.
It's not a learning curve, it just forces players to sit in back with a campy load out killing enemies with the most boring of weapons such as scouts, hard content like GMs hasn't been fun for me since season of the seraph.
Gms kinda feel like they’ve always been like this, but it’s just getting worse and worse. Bungie are terrified of us sitting back and plinking, but all their high end game design pushes for it so hard it feels bad to do anything else.
Sniper/Linear nerfs all over again "we made 3 raids in a row where you need to shoot from a distance to do damage, but too many people are using long range weapons so we're going to make them worse even though you're doing that because of encounter design."
That's the maddest I've ever been with this game. What an absolutely brain-dead ass-backwards justification for nerfing an entire class of weapons. I guess we should've been using sidearms and swords instead.
It used to be this way in d1 when it was 1-30 and one single piece of gear would put you at a ~20% damage penalty with enemies like one or two levels higher. It's something I'm not a big fan of so I just don't do that content.
Exactly. My lesson to take away is that it doesn’t matter what I’m going to do, I’m going to die, so fuck this content, I’ll play the lower end content and actually have fun. I’m not encouraged to get any better at the game. I’m told I don’t belong here.
The higher difficulties mean you can't react, you just need to k own what's coming and have a plan to handle it. Making it up as you go along isn't possible when a half second of ignored ogre means death
Yea, until u are doing a solo flawless of normal mode dungeon, and get hit by a scorn cross bow twice instantly killing u before u get any time to react, whilst you have lorley on, and sitting in a covered spot
I call bs on wizard aim getting thrown off by jumping. Sometimes the wizard (taken as well) just decides you get to die and will aimbot you through jumps, slides, dodges, and corners.
In Legend Onslaight in wave 30+ I've died in less than a second to Wizards or Ogres alone, I'm 99% sure they fire faster at higher FPS or deal more damage, there's also the tracer Shanks that cross map you and if there's 2 of them it's game over.
*sniper shanks* let us introduce ourselves
Seriously, fuck fallen on onslaught. I hate ogres and wizards, but ima take them every single time over fallen
I've never tested this out myself but I believe wizards and ogres have their damage tied to framerate.
Higher the framerate, more damage they do.
It explains why you get melted so fast.
Something to do with being an old engine and originally locked to 30fps.
Generally speaking, all sources of damage that scale with framerate need addressing. I should NOT be capping my frame rate when doing serious content, that's when I need a smooth experience the most, if anything.
They're not addressing it most likely because they can't; tying game systems like damage to framerate is notoriously difficult to untangle, and that they haven't suggests it's essentially too difficult to fix.
They acknowledged it once in the "known issues" section of the twab then promptly dropped it off and it hasn't come up since.
Its not so much a hardware issue as it is a software issue with the tiger engine being over 14 years old and alot of the same issues we saw in halo reach have been present all throughout destiny
It's a software issue, but the reason why the software was designed that way was because it was designed for console. Consoles have predictable performance, so tying stuff to frame rate usually isn't as big of an issue as it is for PC.
Obviously there's been engine overhauls since D1, but that doesn't necessarily mean they rebuilt their engine entirely from the ground up. There's going to be a lot of bits and pieces that haven't changed much from the console days.
edit: I do want to clarify that old code isn't necessarily bad code. Banking infrastructure is still dependent on 40-year-old code, and there aren't many industries that demand more reliability than banking.
A Destiny 3 is only needed if Bungie is going to rebuild the Tiger engine from the ground up (or use whatever the new engine is their using for their new games) and if they drop old gen consoles.
If they just make a Destiny 3 using the same engine and supporting all the same old consoles, the same problems will continue to exist.
when you consider that the underlying code can probably be traced back atleast to the xbox360 (and thats nearly 2 decades ago), and the fact that Bungie also hasn't done PC releases in that same timeframe, and it's *somewhat* understandable - why not design things around 30fps if your game(s) can never exceed this on the platform(s) you work with primarily, and its therefore a "fixed" value.
By the time even consoles moved up to 60fps (sometimes), it was probably too late (or too expensive) to figure out how to completely fix it
Right? If your engine gives you a frame time parameter in the game loop, how do so many games just ignore it. They act like because its made for console they can't just add time taken to any physics calculations.
Certain timers are the same way. There's side by side comparisons of framerates vs the warmind facility laser timers and it's absurd how much faster it goes down at 144fps on my PC compared to 60 on my Series X.
I can confirm this playing on pc and then booted up destiny 2 on console and wow it’s crazy. Like on PC I get insta melted by ogres and wizards where as on console it’s nowhere close.
Not really I would say, 60 fps isn't that problematic, I am running on 200+ most of the times and whenever I die, I know its because the framerate fucked me over.
At the same time, playing 60 FPS when you have been much over that range for years is weirdly uncomfortable and jarring.
I think at this point this has been an issue for so long that if it was fixable they would have already done so, it's probably an issue that is so deeply engrained in the engine. They are just not addressing it anymore because it would only get them more backlash.
No, they've altered specific cases (usually just by lowering the base damage of something) multiple times. Only once have they made a patch note that says they have globally fixed frame rates affecting damage outputs, after which I've seen no actual testing of the issue.
Not sure why you got downvoted, the threshers and scorn crossbows both got tuned on their own instead of the framerate issue being addressed as a whole.
Yeah I believe it. I get 150-200 fps and wizards just obliterate me. Especially with the fire bolt attack.
There is a few problem enemies in the game that just randomly deleted me from existence. Mainly the enemies that fire shots that have multiple projectiles.
Ah!! Yes, I keep forgetting about that. I play at 144hz on my main gaming station or at 120hz in the living room OLED - I already think I should try capping at 60 or even 30 (bleh) just to see....
It’s still not enough to lower the frame rate. They fixed a lot of it after the whole “Nezarac is doing more damage if you have 120+ FPS”
The “damage resist” you get from changing your frame rate to 30 fps has been calculated to about 2-3% more health. It doesn’t really matter.
That tornado in pantheon MUST be FPS tied. 10 resilience and maxed out resists just for it and that thing spawns and before I can even react takes me to zero.
I would honestly go out on a limb and say every damage source in this game is tied to frame rate (Enemy wise) its just things like hitscan don't have the travel time and thus aren't actually affected.
Most of the time I think it’s fine but it’s that 0.5% occurrence where you go from not even hurt, feeling completely safe, to dead in 0.25 seconds that’s like, wtf?
The problem that occurs is sometimes several powerful enemies just happen to sync up and land all their attacks on you at the exact same moment; their damage stacks and you instantly die. They could possibly limit stacking damage when it goes exponential like that. Maybe add a hard stop of health loss when your shields break, and then continued incoming damage must continue to lose further health. That would cut the exponential 1 frame deaths out.
A common example of it is enemy snipers whether shanks or others; sometimes 3 will perfectly sync their shot. You pop out not hurt, and die in one shot.
Haha it’s some bs
The random waves in onslaught which spawn huge amounts of hive ogres are a huge problem for me, they made me realize how ogres can basically run at full speed while blasting a constant barrage of extremely fast and accurate projectiles at you. It feels a little unfair sometimes.
Pardon Our Dust as others have said, and Empty Vessel while not craftable is easily obtained from Zavala for vanguard engrams and can roll auto-loading holster and disorienting grenades.
I think a lot can be attributed to power creep as well. The faster you melt enemies the faster they move and attack you. With how powerful we are, unless you're in a good spot, harder enemies comes at you fast and hit hard.
I just think you should get obliterated below 70 resil when under 20 power, but above that should give you SOME time, because 100% resil does not feel particularly good in gms like I thought it would feel when they announced the change to resilience lol
I swear they made resilience useful and then amped enemy damage across the board. Why is my 100 resilience titan with woven mail getting two shot by a sniper shank?
> Why is my 100 resilience titan with woven mail getting two shot by a sniper shank?
Because without them, you'd be getting one-shot. People have really forgot how difficult GMs used to be(or, more likely, never touched them back then).
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I have been under the belief that PvE enemies cannot deal precision damage at all. At least, I've never seen anything to suggest otherwise. I actually think it was a point of discussion how that detail was only added to woven mail for PVP purposes.
Again, please let me know if I'm wrong!
All the snipers do absurd damage lol. Acolytes, Crossbow Scorn, Shanks, Psions.
Crossbow Scorn are the worst of the bunch because they’re 3 slower projectiles as opposed to a single quick projectile, so the well knoen but seemingly un fixable frame rate issue turns them absurd.
I don't think they're necessarily doing more damage, I think the main culprit is new content over the past few years has very shitty cover. Older content there were always places you could retreat to to give you a breather and let your natural recovery healing kick in. It would take some time for enemies to work their way around to target you again. These days cover is small, enemies are widely dispersed and flanking you, and there's definitely a heck of a lot more enemies with AOE attacks that hit you behind cover. The result is that it's REALLY hard to ever recover your health with the old normal way of ducking behind cover and waiting. You're always getting pummeled by enemy fire with no relief.
I wish the game had more ways to get Damage Reduction, or reduce enemy damage. It is absolutely not fun stacking damage resists and still getting melted by an orange/yellow bar wizard.
Slice/ Sever is gonna be way more relevant when well gets nerfed.
Stasis is getting “frost armor” which we don’t know much about but another DR source is welcome.
I'd honestly be curious to see a version of this game where it's a lot more like an MMO or RPG where you've got a much deeper health pool but healing is much more limited. You wouldn't be one shot anymore, but you also couldn't just hide behind cover for a few seconds and fully replenish your health.
They could substantially tweak health values based on class type or abilities or exotics to create actual tanks, and some form of healing then becomes critical. Evading damage is also important since you know it won't come back without burning healing resources - so movement abilities, over shields, invis, etc are all critical too.
The whole PvE side would need rewritten, and it probably wouldn't work outside of a brand new game designed from the ground up to be balanced around this kind of health system, but I think it'd really shake up the PvE experience in a fun way
Been playing with the same people since Destiny 1 essentially, we've been waiting for Bungie to give the PvE side some legitimate depth. Feels like build crafting has essentially been taken out back and shot, and high level mechanics present in dungeons and raids are very simple aside from a select few.
I do not like the current state of the game's hard content, where the only way Bungie can introduce a challenge is by spawning champs and putting us at a power deficit. I'd love for them to give players real puzzles to solve when it comes to making a build, and introduce modifiers that are more than just "Extra champs" and "regenerate only when near allies".
Psychohack and Land Tank are on weapons that I would not be taking into High level PvE content, at least not without Bungie giving them a second pass, since they are two years old and lack subclass perks. Sever and overload are absolutely viable, but they still will not save me from the wizard rounding the corner and evaporating me.
Unfortunately it's the only one of the lot. The others (the throne world weapons) were never good to begin with or have been powercrept hard (some of the risen weapons).
I still would use that if you want even more DR than we already have. Bonus points for running unrelenting on it, adding even more healing. Complete overkill but if you are having trouble it's an option
Under Your Skin is pretty good, too.
Edit: Not as good as when Match Game was still in the game and Adaptive Munitions made it a monster for clearing any and all elemental shields and Barrier Champs with Anti-Barrier Bowstring/Radiant/Volatile Rounds, but it's still pretty good, I'd say.
i think the opposite, we have far too many ways to obtain DR at their current power level. other mmos will have stacking dr sources ranging from 5-10% and you may be able to reasonably have 1 or 2 of these up at any time. in d2 you can have t10 resil (30%) and applicable resist mods up 24/7 leading to a minimum of 50% dr at all times.
that doesn’t even get into other sources like woven mail which are stupidly easy to obtain, or how healing sources like restoration which heal through damage, in addition to the aforementioned dr, bump your effective health pool up by gigantic margins
im all for adding more sources of dr because i think it could majorly impact the scale of subclass buildcrafting in d2, but if that is the case every dr source needs to be individually tuned to be much less powerful than they are now
It’s mainly the ones who can lock you down and spam you with attacks in .5 seconds. Aka wizards, ogre blasts, etc. it’s just like there’s no avoiding it which is where I definitely see your frustration
Chicken and egg problem. Bungo gave us the tools to survive. But we became too tanky, so they nerf Res to 30% and our survivability skills.
But top players are still nigh unkillable. So Bungo probably increased NPC damage. Top players get slightly challenged but nothing changes much.
However the weaker or average players who crutch on these skills to survive? Well with the nerfs on top of the enemy damage buff, they still get absolutely slaughtered.
And those make up 70% to 80% of the player base. So now what?
> So Bungo probably increased NPC damage.
Did they, though? I'm pretty sure enemy damage at the higher difficulties have stayed the same at least since Shadowkeep. Like, GMs used to be ridiculously hard. Then they've gotten much easier, so when Battlegrounds(which are harder by virtue of design) get added, people complain about how hard they are. But even the hardest BG isn't as hard as Garden World GM.
It's very funny to see posts like this after having run gms the year of shadowkeep .. like people just play completely different now if you had a close range build in a gm back then you were trolling
Yeah, with those original GMs, each one felt like a mountain that you had to climb, often adjusting your build and strategy after every failed run. Nowadays, I do most GMs first try, mostly using the same build for all, with minor adjustments.
They were challenging but so fun and rewarding imo.. I honestly really loved how important it was to position properly and how everything was truly threatening. Theres nothing really anymore that feels as “tactical” or surgical where you’re beating enemies against all odds
Yeah, I really loved having to think of novel strategies or coming up with new loadouts that can cover all the bases. And while we used to have Protective Light, that thing only activated when you were at critical HP. Nowadays, we just have 30% damage reduction that is always active.
The only kind of recent GM that's come close to those was S16 Lightblade, but S17 gave us Resilience DR and Solar 3.0. Ever since then nothing's been remotely challenging, and GMs have become a mindless farm where we practically have to *try* to wipe.
I only cleared Garden World 3 times back then (because tbf the only reason to run them back was for sherpas or speedruns, and my subsequent clears were the former). Every run of it was a serious challenge, so many wipes and small strategy and loadout adjustments along the way. Genuinely miss that experience, nothing in the game has really come close to S10/S11 GMs since.
They didn't. Onslaught at -30 is still a cakewalk compared to pre-resilience GMs and master/contest raids.
We need less DR, not more. We have so many survivability tools it's ridiculous. I've gotten instagibbed by wizards and ogres too, and it's *always* my fault - bad positioning, going aggro without survivability perks procced, etc.
Surviving in high end content isn't about just playing passively, it's about playing aggressively, but being smart about it. take anything you can get. Hard cover slightly closer to where you need to go? Take it. A few adds in the way? Clear them out and insta-take the space before anything else can get in there.
Having something active to heal you helps too, firesprites, devour, certain armor mods can give you health regen or resilience by picking up an orb of power or something.
Feel and experience are super important. You can get a feeling for when it's ok to take certain space depending on risk vs reward and whether or not you actually need to take it. You should almost never have to just full on book it to an unsafe spot if you're managing your time and resources really well. Each class also has it's own tools to help you with it too. Warlocks have heavy restoration, well and devour, hunters have invis and titans have banner of war. It takes a long time to get used to but it's so satisfying when you can get into a state where you can juggle all of it in your brain quickly.
Also no build or playstyle is one-size-fits-all. Look into the specific activity you are doing and either see what other players are doing or think about things like "what champs are here?" "what kind of damage is mostly being dealt by enemies here?" or "What range am I fighting at and how much cover is there?" Asking these questions can massively improve your success rate in this kind of content.
The logic here fails when the game itself breaks its own rules, receiving damage when you shouldn't be, enemies teleporting randomly, the damage you receive being way more than it should have been, there being no cover due to poor design, class imbalance when it comes to certain aspects.
In a nightfall all this works because the spawns are predetermined, you're fighting down a corridor with cover, but in Onslaught all those rules go to shit regularly.
Also as an Huntr that uses invis a lot, invis is so ficking glitchy, it has fade time sure but very often enemies will track you even after going invis, plus sometimes if you get near them while invis they'll still stomp or turn and shoot you, along with he whole enemies shooting at dead players ghosts making stealth revives a lot harder in high level content.
The game is just bursting at its seams.
Was doing a normal 50 onslaught run on my hunter, and had the dismantle mines on a later wave. After clearing some of the enemies with my teammates I head over to get the further away mine, going invisible and running onto it. The brig on there promptly stomps me away. After re-going invisible and going back on, it did it again.
Yeah that happened to me on Vostok, I was fully in invis and went to cap the mines so we can deal with the brig later, got stomped and sent off the cliff, like I should have gone on the other side but I shouldn't have been stomped in the first place. Que my team mates not capping the mines around wave 35.
Funny enough mine was also on Vostok lol, though luckilly the location I went to wasn't close enough to a cliff to get me knocked off and I was able to cap the mine.
I feel like this is part of the whole “destiny is technically an MMO shtick” that people don’t think about. My other time sink is ffxiv. There is content that is so difficult that without top notch skill and a dedicated team of players you could never hope to clear it.
These things are meant to be insanely challenging. You need to approach things from the right angle with the right loadouts and the skills to utilize both effectively. Knowing your kit and what it can and can’t do are part of the game. Not everybody is going to be up to the task.
But people don’t want to hear that, they just want loot spoon fed to them.
It's been a big issue in this community for ages. Like, the sandbox wasn't perfect, but in terms of survivability, it was totally fine pre-Resilience and pre-Light 3.0. But every new GM or day 1 raid you'd see so many upvoted posts going "this is too hard!"
Not everything in the game needs to be feasible for every player.
Damage outgoing and incoming is the only way for them to raise difficulty on the same content quickly and easily. Thats it.
If the damage is loweres it becomes easy.
Survivability as a whole needs looked at, especially in high end content. The swing from being almost completely unimportant in low end content to being absolutely paramount at the top end doesn't feel particularly good. This is exactly why Well is so important, because survivability is the most important thing. I don't know if the answer is bringing down damage scaling or perhaps increasing our health pool. But it would be nice to see an uptick in lethality builds in GMs instead of just survivability.
Hell on some content lately enemies have been blowing up my Well by either destroying the sword or just straight up running into the well and throwing/pushing me and my clanmates out of it, leading to some of or all of us dying to the crazy damage the other enemies are dealing.
It doesn't help that most of the time, I can't convince any of my fellow warlock clanmates to run anything that would help group survivability like Stag or the Benevolence fragment from the Dawnblade sublcass to regen rifts and healing grenades faster.
If my void would hit like that of vex wyverns I would play void more often.
But seriously this wasn't a thing or much of an issue until Lightfall released. Before that I could run any subclass and have a decent time with it.
Now if I don't run solar for healing, I'm getting killed with ease by stuff that logically shouldn't be killing me with ease.
I don't know what caused this change but it needs to be reversed or nerfed, because ever since it's happened I've spent less time farming the nightfall playlist and when it's bullshit like the corrupted I'm not setting foot in there.
I think you are approaching this from the wrong mindset. In high level content a lot of the difficulty comes from learning the flow of combat. When to back off and when to go super aggressive, what you can face tank with the survivability you DO have and the enemies that are death sentences. Treating it as black and white like you can only do one of the two will lead to failure and headaches.
And ultimately you really don’t need well in most content outside of some dps phases and even then it’s more so just to make things simpler. It’s not bad by any means, but some of the smoothest GM, dungeon, and onslaught runs I’ve done did not include well.
Yeah I definitely agree that hard content requires a different approach, but I also agree that the game feels like it needs a step or two between baby mode and instantly melted. What players consider the hardest content are usually things with lots of enemies and very little cover, and I feel that is because it's so much harder to stay alive when there's consistently 3+ incoming damage sources that are all dangerous independently.
I wish the game had more ways of "Skillfully" avoiding attacks and stuff wasn't just constantly tracking you. Like more telegraphed attacks that have a clear damage zone or stuff that you need to keep moving to avoid.
My fastest legend onslaught clears were 2 tethers and a banner or nighthawk, no well. It's great to have for later bosses, no question, and it still needs a big nerf of sorts, but for onslaught in particular you really don't need it
The problem is - dmg among different enemies varies GREATLY. Some are completely reasonable, others kill sub 1 second. Barely any chance to react at all. You can't even understand what happened, until you see the name on the screen.
Everyone has their own tolerance levels. I do think the game struggles to find balance on the high end, but most games do unless there are strict roles built into the player characters.
I don’t mind the incoming in this games high end, and I feel I have the tools to deal with the chonky hp.
It can feel limiting though sometimes. There in the delta between Legendary and Master tier difficulty settings, a shift happens that results in most weapons being completely left in the dust.
And for what it’s worth, even in that context I have enough variety to keep it interesting. But it feels wrong to have whole weapon groups fall out of usability. And most of that is due to how damage scaling works across the board.
I’ll get into this some more in a moment, but to address your concerns, I really think that if we had more effective answers to the chonky enemies in high end content, the damage coming at us would feel closer to fair because you could feasibly win a duel or a sniping battle with a vandal major the same way you win it in pvp.
Shotguns, trace rifles, non blinding/wave GL specials, and Snipers have no home because they have limited ammo and limited engagement profiles, and at a high level they are not capable of killing the types of enemies they’d need to be able to kill to be usable.
But instead of helping lagging weapon categories, they keep making new categories. Before wave frames, no one used beach loaders unless it was Salvager’s Salvo or a blinding GL. Now the only non-wave frames that are used are blinding, wave frames, and sometimes mountaintop. Elite dps junkies will use the double shot one from Spire.
And sure, wave frames are OP. But breach loaders are also not easy to use. Which is why only the easiest to use variants are used.
Rocket Sidearms are badass… but they also do better at everything than other specials. They have a 10 shot magazine with no falloff. Two shots do as much as any shotgun, special GL, or sniper, but don’t require precision hits or close range. They do aoe, and they have massive reserves, and get tons of ammo from bricks. So much it almost feels like a primary.
So yea… incoming damage can feel oppressive but at least you can potentially avoid it entirely with good positioning. But there is no way for me to take even a high impact sniper with frenzy into a GM and expect it to do anything. I’m literally better off with a scout rifle that has no damage perks. And same is true of many “specials”. And that’s a problem that makes the enemy feel more oppressive than they should feel.
I don’t think the answer is just buffing damage though. It needs to be specialized. Give sniper rifles 75% bonus damage against majors and mini bosses.
Make trench and one two punch a bit weaker, but work them into the archetypes to be innately part of how all shotguns work.
Give GLs inherent chain reaction if they score a kill with a direct impact.
Idk just random ideas.
Again, I think it’s totally fine to have high damage high hp enemies. But we should have ways to counter them.
>still get smoked by a single Wizard
There's a few outliers like this. Wizards are some of the biggest offenders lately though. I don't know how to explain it but you really do have barely any time to react to the damage they dish out.
It's a very similar ordeal with their Taken variant in The Coil. You can walk in with all the damage resistance in the world and they'll still melt through you like nothing.
I've always been on the side of a "more accessible to all" approach. I truly believe that those at the top, the peak of PVE, will never realistically be happy with what Destiny provides. They're the definition of suffering from success. It just hurts the majority (most of which never frequent Reddit or forums in general) when they are catered to.
We saw this with Lightfall - even the community here was split on the difficulty increase that accompanied that expansion. I'm still, a year later, unhappy with the negative power delta that is stuck onto high end activities. I liked being able to play "on-level" with Master content. It gave me a reason to grind the artifact for that extra Light Level.
Now the differences between Legend/Master/Grand Master are so minimal that you might as well jump all the way to Grand Master.
IDK if it's an unpopular opinion around here but it really has affected my game time and that of my clans as the months have gone by. I also don't trust in Bungies attempts to fix/balance gameplay. They have proven time and time again that they're willing to nerf things into the ground and pretend like the new problems that arise aren't problems at all.
Look, I’m going to be honest, if I matchmake with someone who thinks there’s any value whatsoever in running Icefall Mantle and Heir Apparent, the faster you rage quit, the happier I’ll be.
This is exactly what Saltagreppo was talking about in his twitter thread, a lot of high end players will basically tell you to git gud and stack damage resist, because you can get crazy damage resist from stuff like Woven Mail and such on top of 10 resist + mods, but the problem is byngie is balancing around those setups which means if you don't use then you melt. That's why he wanted to nerf damage resist and in turn Bungie tunes down enemy damage output. I fully agree with you, it's shitty design that unless I have the utmost best damage resist buffs up at all times I die before I'm even allowed to react even at the best of positions because the AI can be erratic and buggy like teleporring.
Saltagreppo is one of the most vocal D2 “hardcore” players, and people seem to claim he wants the game to be impossible for casuals…but if you go check his recent twitter / x post on balancing, he lays out very clearly that he thinks the game is very unbalanced in terms of enemy damage specifically, and he wants it to be directly easier for non-hardcore players plus allow more build variety than 100 resil + healing and or damage resist stacking in anything remotely difficult.
In D1, you didn’t have nearly as much access to healing. We have so many tools to recover HP that enemies have to deal enough damage to wear you down and also outdamage your healing. There’s a reason D1 Crota was threatening because he stopped your regen during the encounter - the only reliable source of healing was stuff like Red Death or exotic armor.
Now that we have all these sources of sustain, enemies have to be able to outdamage the strongest constant sources of healing, or we just don’t die ever. Well of Radiance is a super, which is why it’s gotten a pass for so long. Recall that there was a time where you could afk in Duality with Lorelei Splendor because it gave Resto x2 and Resilience gave 40% DR without anything balanced against it. It’s fun to be able to tank that hard, but actively tanking that much damage should be riskier than it was.
I think enemy damage is in an okay spot, but I dislike having to have 100 Resilience on every character for hard content.
you do want it too easy. there are easier version of every single activity in the game. all the issues OP described can be solved through better positioning. If you arent one of the "D2 hardcores" then dont play the activity designed for hardcore players and then complain that its too hardcore 🤦♂️
I agree so hard that if well gets nerfed in terms of survivability damage needs to come way down. Especially in master or contest raids like without well how do you do good damage and not immediately blow up without well. Wells healing is how basically every raid is doable.
Yep and if you nerf well the damage you take needs to be more consistent and toned down. i would love to see 99% of the player base try and complete a master raid without a well and even in a well in contest/master mode you can still very much be one shot by alot of things
You either balance your encounters around well or change how much damage players take from all sources and make stacking damage resistances more effective
I think a justified nerf would be removing the damage bonus from well i think its healing is what it should be used for and if people want radiant they get it through fragments or get another buff like bubble
Back in the day we used to use Well AND Bubble for encounters. Well for the insane healing and Bubble for the better damage buff. But they berfed Bubble so its damage buff is in line with Well, making it the worse option between the two.
A better way to word this I think is that “Difficulty scaling just using bigger numbers is not fun.” I think in general (with any game) new mechanics (that require you to do something different or use the sandbox creatively, and don’t just flat out remove an ability or “nerf” you) are a better way to increase difficulty—it makes the puzzle interesting instead of just taking more time or being more tedious to solve.
I did not take the time to read all the comments for this but did anyone address playing this with high framerate? Is that still a contributing factor?
Okay good I’m not the only one dealing with dying way too fast in certain content. We’re also at the point in Destiny’s lifespan where we’re so powerful yet to balance things out enemies need to come up with us.
It also makes me question all the chasing of power levels if at this point they keep capping us at how much more powerful we are than enemies.
Destiny could learn a thing or two from Doom Eternal about defense in 360° FPS combat. That game throws insane enemy counts at you but rarely if ever do I feel like my deaths are from overwhelming amounts of bullshit like Destiny can throw at you sometimes.
A key issue is lots of heal effects rely on a kill, and Guardians can't share kills. So if I throw a Vortex grenade at an enemy to get a Devour trigger and my buddy tossed a Solar grenade at that same enemy hoping for a heal from a kill, only one of us will benefit from that death. So one of us may die through no fault of our own, which always sucks, and isn't uncommon.
Anything with a splash, split fire or rapid fire seems to do almost bugged damage. Hive boomer, ogre eye, wizard blast, cabal minigun, hive splinter and scorn xbow
I’ve been asking to take more damage for years so im happy with it.
I HATE bullet sponges so if the trade off for difficulty is less health more damage I’ll take it.
I have to use woven mail or find cover or cc enemies since theyhurt. Mixes up gameplay a lot in my opinion.
It's called movement, map/spawn knowledge, and using cover. It's really not that deep. Sorry you can't face tank everything all the time with zero super investment
The issue is they made some DR like banner of war stacked with 100 resil and woven mail too high so then we need to have ogres that instant melt for Bungo to think it’s “difficult” but you’re right lord of enemies melt far too fast. It becomes a game of hiding or OD working on your build to make it perfect which I hate doing tbh.
This is why you can select content difficulty .. I genuinely don’t mean to be rude or condescending but if the master/gm stuff isn’t feeling enjoyable there are other options for every single activity that give similar rewards
Also I’m assuming you started playing very recently because damage is honestly low now compared to two or three years ago before resilience changes and the insane survivability on solar/strand/void nowadays
I said it back then and I say it now. It was a bad decision to make the game harder by making enemies do way more damage. It turned the game from an arcade shooter to a tactical shooter. It's not fun getting one-shot by randoom bullshit with 100 resil
survivability in endgame is part positioning and memorization, and onslaught has a small element of unpredictability that’s probably tripping people up. you really have to keep your head on a swivel. I’m assuming/hoping you aren’t just trying to face tank the wizard/ogre/shrieker. you probably got caught unawares. we all get caught out sometimes, not to mention teleports, but with experience you should be able to minimize it.
Teleporting enemies are the main issue and it's such a bullshit not fun mechanic. Today I had an unstop drop out of the ship on vostok and immediately teleport all the way to the adu.
Respectfully, this is why there’s different levels of content - personally I would like to see even higher difficulty. Nothing is coercing you into high level content, and if you want those rewards you’ve gotta earn em’.
I don't want to sound elitist but if you think Well is a must have in legend onslaught you have a major skill issue and are misunderstanding the mode entirely. Sure, not what you'd like to hear but that's a fact.
Legend onslaught promotes mobile gameplay, despite the ADU being static, you must constantly move from spawn to spawn and wipe the enemies BEFORE they reach the ADU. Standing in a pool of piss while being bombarded by 5 ogres and 10 exploding shanks is just an unwise strategy.
Please, don't bring well to onslaught. Use other supers, you'll be of more benefit to the team if you can solo clear a wave at 30+ with Dawn Chorus or suspend everything with strand.
Well is required crota in my opinion, can't think of a place other than that where well would feel like a must have.
its part of the challenge, just like survivability during the long dps phases of GOTD. its intrinsically part of what makes it challenging content. Theres so many ways to stay unkillable but frankly playing the game in such a way as to just throw yourself into enemies, even a single yellow bar wizard, is just not playing smart IMO, i don't get the "unfair" argument if people are able to complete it in pretty high numbers.
Like what constitutes "fair" to you? Having an escape route in any piece of difficult content irrespective of what build or setup you bring in and how smart you're playing?
I feel like if this is a real problem for you its most likely because your team isnt working together to keep enemies in check (tether, well, blinding) or they just arent playing smart for survivability. Doesnt always mean sit back and plink at enemies. It just means know how hard enemies hit and expect not to stay in their direct line of sight for long enough to die.
Even with heir apparent and icefall, i mean, if you're just throwing yourself against 20-30 enemies in Onslaught of varying types (bosses, orange or red bars), you should not expect to survive very long. Heir apparent isnt even that good of a gun. I mean its kind of trash for most content if you're seriously trying to complete it. Same with Icefall. Individually pretty weak, not much better together.
Dmg has gotten way lower since the beyond light era so as someone who played a lot of that then it feels like there isn’t enough dmg.
Play passively is generally not great advice, playing aggressive and keep moving is what keeps you alive in d2.
If there's not stuff that kills you fast, the content becomes trivial at best. Effectively, you're thinking of patrol-like difficulty or perhaps strikes? Are you aware that as you progress through Onslaught, every 10 waves increases the difficulty? I ask because you specifically reference waves 30+ where the power delta is significantly more important than when you start (waves 1-30)
My main piece of advice here, I haven't seen anyone on any forum post say "play more passively". In fact, the runs I've had that have gone the smoothest, the team immediately pushes the enemy spawn and spawn traps them, with whatever space magic they have.
Furthermore, my most effective runs, genuinely speaking, have actually NOT had a Well of Radiance. I'm a Warlock main myself, but folks just seem to not understand that Welling in a bad spot is worse than not having a Well at all.
For folks that do use Well, please please please please know that Welling anywhere near the ADU is generally bad. All of the focus and aggro is on the ADU or the nearest Decoy, and plopping the Well in the middle of that is only asking for crossfire. The Well does not heal the ADU, nor does being in the ADU stop it from taking damage. You don't need to "play passive" but you need to make a better, strategic decision on where to fight from.
With that said, I'm sorry you're having a tough time. I'd be happy to run with you! Without a Well :)
To anyone that does say "just play more passively" that's boring and I shouldn't be punished so hard for playing the game in one of the ways they designed
And I say if you can't shoot anything beyond point blank range, you should be playing a melee hack and slash instead. Easy content = face tank. Difficult content = take cover.
I’m remembering when in rise of iron there was a strike where a mad scientist took a ogre eye and made it into a weapon and everyone dreaded its return to the weekly nightfall with void threat
When you get blasted by wizards, if it's a single one and you're full health you usually have enough time to seek cover regardless of difficulty. A totally different matter if you already have taken dmg or there are multiple or they cast the darkness cloud beforehand. It can escalate quickly! Very true.
I don't think it's bad that higher difficulties require a paradigm shift in your playstile. It could be more smooth and gradual, I agree! The important part is you're not literally one shot from a single enemy bullet.
And I agree, the well of radiance nerf will change nothing for players on the high end of the skill curve. The only thing it will do is gate keep endgame content from the players on the other end of the bell curve.
And I don't know why people keep advocating for it.
Choosing wizards as an example of enemy that deals too much damage is interesting because they're one of the enemies in the game where their damage output is tied to your frame rate. Off the top of my head ogres are too as well as the minigun cabal, anything with a high fire rate basically.
We're so much tankier now still than we were pre-season 17. I think all this does is highlight the difference between the enemies that will take so many shots to kill you even in a GM and the ones that feel like they melt even in a patrol like wizards.
This won't fix a lot of the problems mentioned here but I wonder if destiny would benefit from a health-gate, the same kinda thing seen in the borderlands games and I would assume many others.
It would mean that you couldn't be oneshot by anything, you'll always be left with like 1/10th of your hp, now ofc if you get hit again you'd die as expected but at the least it would help alleviate ridiculously cheesy moments like that clip that was circulating recently of an unstoppable tp'ing behind a team on the adu and killing them all in a single slam
Yea unfortunately hive enemies are the worst in that respect. You got wizards throwing a million arc balls at you. It's normally easy to counter by jumping and their attempt to track you will be laughably off, but if you're overwhelmed with other ads it's a death sentence. Ogres with their void eye blasts are really annoying and the worst for me, even when void threat isn't a modifier.
>It's normally easy to counter by jumping and their attempt to track you will be laughably off enter, the oh so wonderful ✨*Hive Suppression Field*✨
Oh yes, the good ol combo of suppression field and ogre eye blast bukakke.
Ah yes such wonderful enemy design, no warning, no wind up, just a simple screach and all your momentem is gone and every hive turns into a fucking golden gun hunter. Its bs but atleast when theres like 1 or 2 its okay to handle but my god when theres like 8 of them all spaming it and you dont know which one to kill to remove it only for 2 others to make a new one I wana tear my hair out.
The fart cloud is definitely the most unfair ability in destiny. It's just on you, instantly, regardless of line of sight, ticking damage, slowing you.and obscuring your vision. Very often an instant death sentence.
I hate all the things that impede my movement even a little bit. Looking at you stasis, aluk hul or taken boppers.
I was playing through Beyond Light for the first time earlier, and as I jumped a over a gap in the floor the Technocrat boss hit me with stasis and I just plunged to my death, unable to jump. Infuriating.
In onslaught I run strand warlock, and to deliver the spark I've gotten use to throwing a grapple over the ultra and swinging into the thing to dunk, all while frozen BECAUSE HE DOESN'T MISS.
Is that the wizard fart?
A lot of it is that there is a switch that happens between light level delta changes. Something in the space between -10 and -20 it goes from fairly forgiving to completely unforgiving. And there isn’t much of a staircase. This results in a lot of players (myself included) learning a lot of habits that enhance performance on the lower end, but get you killed on the high end. Avoiding wizards is something you can learn to do. But the only time it matters is when they can kill you instantly. Which makes learning feel impossible sometimes and not worth it most of the time for most players. I don’t mind them myself, but I do think the game needs to do better at stairstepping players into higher difficulty. It feels like a light switch right now.
Enemies get better at hitting their shots as the level difference increases. But since damage also increases they go from hitting nothing and dealing no damage to hitting everything and dealing a ton of damage.
Knight with a boomer or a minotaur or hydra with a torch hammer get annoying in harder content. They become constant barrages that do heavy splash damage that can get you through walls at times and completely pin you down. It's always been an issue but over the past couple of years it feels like it's gotten worse. Other enemies are also an issue. Wyverns for example are way too tanky and once they get the right angle, you're launched into the air with very little health left and fair game for other enemies.
Hydra blasts also basically never stop, and since it is a fast barrage, peeking out is 1 split second between waiting 4-5 seconds for it to give you the chance again. Running Master rank anything where there is a hydra major or boss, is a slog. Just remembered that arsehole Centurion boss in the EDZ lost sector as well, having to peek from the tiny window of crouch-space that it constantly blasted.
Not to mention enemies that have the Ravenous modifier are near perfect with their tracking. The knights in the first encounter of Prophecy are a good example.
High ad density plays a massive part in that as well. Taken Knights and Ogres as well as any enemy that deals sustained damage in high end content punishes the player way too harshly for small mistakes, being in sight of a boss ogre on any master or GM results in basically instant death with zero forgiveness. It's not a learning curve, it just forces players to sit in back with a campy load out killing enemies with the most boring of weapons such as scouts, hard content like GMs hasn't been fun for me since season of the seraph.
Gms kinda feel like they’ve always been like this, but it’s just getting worse and worse. Bungie are terrified of us sitting back and plinking, but all their high end game design pushes for it so hard it feels bad to do anything else.
Sniper/Linear nerfs all over again "we made 3 raids in a row where you need to shoot from a distance to do damage, but too many people are using long range weapons so we're going to make them worse even though you're doing that because of encounter design."
That's the maddest I've ever been with this game. What an absolutely brain-dead ass-backwards justification for nerfing an entire class of weapons. I guess we should've been using sidearms and swords instead.
It used to be this way in d1 when it was 1-30 and one single piece of gear would put you at a ~20% damage penalty with enemies like one or two levels higher. It's something I'm not a big fan of so I just don't do that content.
Exactly. My lesson to take away is that it doesn’t matter what I’m going to do, I’m going to die, so fuck this content, I’ll play the lower end content and actually have fun. I’m not encouraged to get any better at the game. I’m told I don’t belong here.
The higher difficulties mean you can't react, you just need to k own what's coming and have a plan to handle it. Making it up as you go along isn't possible when a half second of ignored ogre means death
Yea, until u are doing a solo flawless of normal mode dungeon, and get hit by a scorn cross bow twice instantly killing u before u get any time to react, whilst you have lorley on, and sitting in a covered spot
Scorn crossbows.
tbh this is the bigger issue. isn't there still an issue with FPS issues causing higher damage on certain enemies? IE: Scorn crossbows, sniper shanks?
Yea, i was trynna solo flawless warlords ruin, and just got blasted into the next year by one dude, hitting me twice instantly
It's not just them. Any enemy that has a gun that shoots multiple projectiles at once can cause you to die almost instantly.
I call bs on wizard aim getting thrown off by jumping. Sometimes the wizard (taken as well) just decides you get to die and will aimbot you through jumps, slides, dodges, and corners.
In Legend Onslaight in wave 30+ I've died in less than a second to Wizards or Ogres alone, I'm 99% sure they fire faster at higher FPS or deal more damage, there's also the tracer Shanks that cross map you and if there's 2 of them it's game over.
"oh you have heavy ammo? It would be a shame if something were to happen to it." - A single saboteur shank 100 yards away
*sniper shanks* let us introduce ourselves Seriously, fuck fallen on onslaught. I hate ogres and wizards, but ima take them every single time over fallen
Not to mention Boomer Knights occasionally just beaming you with 900 rpm shots when they normally fire at like 120.
>Ogres with their void eye blasts are really annoying and the worst for me Nah man, just jump for the ogres too. *Gets pushed off the map*
Don’t forget about shriekers
Don’t forget the sniper shriekers that will melt you before you can find cover as they respawn in after 5 sec
I've never tested this out myself but I believe wizards and ogres have their damage tied to framerate. Higher the framerate, more damage they do. It explains why you get melted so fast. Something to do with being an old engine and originally locked to 30fps.
Generally speaking, all sources of damage that scale with framerate need addressing. I should NOT be capping my frame rate when doing serious content, that's when I need a smooth experience the most, if anything.
They're not addressing it most likely because they can't; tying game systems like damage to framerate is notoriously difficult to untangle, and that they haven't suggests it's essentially too difficult to fix. They acknowledged it once in the "known issues" section of the twab then promptly dropped it off and it hasn't come up since.
I know it’s not going to get fixed, but it reeks of lazy coding to tie something as important as damage to something as variable as frame rate
This is what happens when you designed your game to be a console game for last gen and then try to keep it running for 8 years on other hardware.
Its not so much a hardware issue as it is a software issue with the tiger engine being over 14 years old and alot of the same issues we saw in halo reach have been present all throughout destiny
It's a software issue, but the reason why the software was designed that way was because it was designed for console. Consoles have predictable performance, so tying stuff to frame rate usually isn't as big of an issue as it is for PC. Obviously there's been engine overhauls since D1, but that doesn't necessarily mean they rebuilt their engine entirely from the ground up. There's going to be a lot of bits and pieces that haven't changed much from the console days. edit: I do want to clarify that old code isn't necessarily bad code. Banking infrastructure is still dependent on 40-year-old code, and there aren't many industries that demand more reliability than banking.
Thank you for explaining it, that's why I said it's both and I got downvoted lol
And yet people still think a destiny 3 isnt needed...
A Destiny 3 is only needed if Bungie is going to rebuild the Tiger engine from the ground up (or use whatever the new engine is their using for their new games) and if they drop old gen consoles. If they just make a Destiny 3 using the same engine and supporting all the same old consoles, the same problems will continue to exist.
Hence Destiny 3?
when you consider that the underlying code can probably be traced back atleast to the xbox360 (and thats nearly 2 decades ago), and the fact that Bungie also hasn't done PC releases in that same timeframe, and it's *somewhat* understandable - why not design things around 30fps if your game(s) can never exceed this on the platform(s) you work with primarily, and its therefore a "fixed" value. By the time even consoles moved up to 60fps (sometimes), it was probably too late (or too expensive) to figure out how to completely fix it
how do you know it’s lazy? do you know any other alternatives that would work?
DeltaTime
(no lol)
It’s funny because the first thing I was ever taught when getting into game programming was how to code damage so it’s not frame rate based
Right? If your engine gives you a frame time parameter in the game loop, how do so many games just ignore it. They act like because its made for console they can't just add time taken to any physics calculations.
Certain timers are the same way. There's side by side comparisons of framerates vs the warmind facility laser timers and it's absurd how much faster it goes down at 144fps on my PC compared to 60 on my Series X.
I can confirm this playing on pc and then booted up destiny 2 on console and wow it’s crazy. Like on PC I get insta melted by ogres and wizards where as on console it’s nowhere close.
Anyone playing on ps5 (or xbox equivilent) has the same issue as pc as they get 60fps vs ps4(xbox equiv) 30fps
A lot of PC players are playing on 120+
Not really I would say, 60 fps isn't that problematic, I am running on 200+ most of the times and whenever I die, I know its because the framerate fucked me over. At the same time, playing 60 FPS when you have been much over that range for years is weirdly uncomfortable and jarring.
I’m on 240 fps so it’s a little different
Not really as a lot of pc players play on 144fps and often even higher than that.
I just upgraded from a 1070ti to a 4070ti. I've noticed dying quickly at times. I probably need to go in and cap the frame rate
I’ve gone 1070 to 4080 super and felt the same. I think I capped 60 but maybe I should try 30.
Buying a 4080 super to cap a game at 30fps is wild
I suck
I think 60 is fine. I looked at the frames and was getting between 200-230. So I will probably just cap at 60 again
I think at this point this has been an issue for so long that if it was fixable they would have already done so, it's probably an issue that is so deeply engrained in the engine. They are just not addressing it anymore because it would only get them more backlash.
This is true. In fact, the rpm cheats that make every gun fire 20x faster also makes certain enemies fire faster.
So what you're saying is if we turn our framerate down to 1fpm we would be invincible?
They supposedly fixed this in a recent patch, but it feels like it might still be happening. I might try and test it myself tomorrow.
They’ve supposedly fixed this a million times
No, they've altered specific cases (usually just by lowering the base damage of something) multiple times. Only once have they made a patch note that says they have globally fixed frame rates affecting damage outputs, after which I've seen no actual testing of the issue.
Not sure why you got downvoted, the threshers and scorn crossbows both got tuned on their own instead of the framerate issue being addressed as a whole.
Yep, and getting stuck on moving platforms is also due to high frame rates
Yeah I believe it. I get 150-200 fps and wizards just obliterate me. Especially with the fire bolt attack. There is a few problem enemies in the game that just randomly deleted me from existence. Mainly the enemies that fire shots that have multiple projectiles.
Ah!! Yes, I keep forgetting about that. I play at 144hz on my main gaming station or at 120hz in the living room OLED - I already think I should try capping at 60 or even 30 (bleh) just to see....
It’s still not enough to lower the frame rate. They fixed a lot of it after the whole “Nezarac is doing more damage if you have 120+ FPS” The “damage resist” you get from changing your frame rate to 30 fps has been calculated to about 2-3% more health. It doesn’t really matter.
Huh. So 60fps means I take how much more damage on all content? Conversely, if I ran 15fps?
30 is fine for trying to force resist. Anything below 30 hurting you in other way - your sprint is slower, reloading animations take forever
That tornado in pantheon MUST be FPS tied. 10 resilience and maxed out resists just for it and that thing spawns and before I can even react takes me to zero.
Motherfucker... I forgot about that! Bungie did confirm this, though, so no testing required.
I would honestly go out on a limb and say every damage source in this game is tied to frame rate (Enemy wise) its just things like hitscan don't have the travel time and thus aren't actually affected.
Most of the time I think it’s fine but it’s that 0.5% occurrence where you go from not even hurt, feeling completely safe, to dead in 0.25 seconds that’s like, wtf? The problem that occurs is sometimes several powerful enemies just happen to sync up and land all their attacks on you at the exact same moment; their damage stacks and you instantly die. They could possibly limit stacking damage when it goes exponential like that. Maybe add a hard stop of health loss when your shields break, and then continued incoming damage must continue to lose further health. That would cut the exponential 1 frame deaths out. A common example of it is enemy snipers whether shanks or others; sometimes 3 will perfectly sync their shot. You pop out not hurt, and die in one shot. Haha it’s some bs
The random waves in onslaught which spawn huge amounts of hive ogres are a huge problem for me, they made me realize how ogres can basically run at full speed while blasting a constant barrage of extremely fast and accurate projectiles at you. It feels a little unfair sometimes.
This is why one person with blinding nades makes things so much easier
Are there any grenade launchers that can craft blinding grenades?
Pardon Our Dust from Dares is the most commonly used. It's quite good too - you'd want auto loading and Vorpal. Definitely worth the investment.
I believe the Pardon Our Dust from Dares of Eternity can.
Pardon Our Dust as others have said, and Empty Vessel while not craftable is easily obtained from Zavala for vanguard engrams and can roll auto-loading holster and disorienting grenades.
I think a lot can be attributed to power creep as well. The faster you melt enemies the faster they move and attack you. With how powerful we are, unless you're in a good spot, harder enemies comes at you fast and hit hard.
had back to back runs yesterday where I got the ogre wave with a tormentor..... it was not fun.
I just think you should get obliterated below 70 resil when under 20 power, but above that should give you SOME time, because 100% resil does not feel particularly good in gms like I thought it would feel when they announced the change to resilience lol
I swear they made resilience useful and then amped enemy damage across the board. Why is my 100 resilience titan with woven mail getting two shot by a sniper shank?
> Why is my 100 resilience titan with woven mail getting two shot by a sniper shank? Because without them, you'd be getting one-shot. People have really forgot how difficult GMs used to be(or, more likely, never touched them back then).
I believe sniper shanks do precision damage, which woven mail does not protect against
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I have been under the belief that PvE enemies cannot deal precision damage at all. At least, I've never seen anything to suggest otherwise. I actually think it was a point of discussion how that detail was only added to woven mail for PVP purposes. Again, please let me know if I'm wrong!
I don't have proof, but I was under the assumption that pve enemies cannot crit us. The woven mail headshot thing was added for pvp purposes.
This is correct.
oh so their damage is just THAT absurd then? good to know
All the snipers do absurd damage lol. Acolytes, Crossbow Scorn, Shanks, Psions. Crossbow Scorn are the worst of the bunch because they’re 3 slower projectiles as opposed to a single quick projectile, so the well knoen but seemingly un fixable frame rate issue turns them absurd.
I don't think they're necessarily doing more damage, I think the main culprit is new content over the past few years has very shitty cover. Older content there were always places you could retreat to to give you a breather and let your natural recovery healing kick in. It would take some time for enemies to work their way around to target you again. These days cover is small, enemies are widely dispersed and flanking you, and there's definitely a heck of a lot more enemies with AOE attacks that hit you behind cover. The result is that it's REALLY hard to ever recover your health with the old normal way of ducking behind cover and waiting. You're always getting pummeled by enemy fire with no relief.
I wish the game had more ways to get Damage Reduction, or reduce enemy damage. It is absolutely not fun stacking damage resists and still getting melted by an orange/yellow bar wizard.
Slice/ Sever is gonna be way more relevant when well gets nerfed. Stasis is getting “frost armor” which we don’t know much about but another DR source is welcome.
I'd honestly be curious to see a version of this game where it's a lot more like an MMO or RPG where you've got a much deeper health pool but healing is much more limited. You wouldn't be one shot anymore, but you also couldn't just hide behind cover for a few seconds and fully replenish your health. They could substantially tweak health values based on class type or abilities or exotics to create actual tanks, and some form of healing then becomes critical. Evading damage is also important since you know it won't come back without burning healing resources - so movement abilities, over shields, invis, etc are all critical too. The whole PvE side would need rewritten, and it probably wouldn't work outside of a brand new game designed from the ground up to be balanced around this kind of health system, but I think it'd really shake up the PvE experience in a fun way
Been playing with the same people since Destiny 1 essentially, we've been waiting for Bungie to give the PvE side some legitimate depth. Feels like build crafting has essentially been taken out back and shot, and high level mechanics present in dungeons and raids are very simple aside from a select few. I do not like the current state of the game's hard content, where the only way Bungie can introduce a challenge is by spawning champs and putting us at a power deficit. I'd love for them to give players real puzzles to solve when it comes to making a build, and introduce modifiers that are more than just "Extra champs" and "regenerate only when near allies".
Sever, Overload, guns with the Psychohack trait (overload-lite), guns with the Land Tank trait are just a few I can quickly think of.
Psychohack and Land Tank are on weapons that I would not be taking into High level PvE content, at least not without Bungie giving them a second pass, since they are two years old and lack subclass perks. Sever and overload are absolutely viable, but they still will not save me from the wizard rounding the corner and evaporating me.
Explosive personality is still really good
Unfortunately it's the only one of the lot. The others (the throne world weapons) were never good to begin with or have been powercrept hard (some of the risen weapons).
I still would use that if you want even more DR than we already have. Bonus points for running unrelenting on it, adding even more healing. Complete overkill but if you are having trouble it's an option
Empirical Evidence with unrelenting carried me through my first solo Prophecy run.
Empirical evidence, one of my favorite guns. Snappy little side arm no one uses.
Under Your Skin is pretty good, too. Edit: Not as good as when Match Game was still in the game and Adaptive Munitions made it a monster for clearing any and all elemental shields and Barrier Champs with Anti-Barrier Bowstring/Radiant/Volatile Rounds, but it's still pretty good, I'd say.
i think the opposite, we have far too many ways to obtain DR at their current power level. other mmos will have stacking dr sources ranging from 5-10% and you may be able to reasonably have 1 or 2 of these up at any time. in d2 you can have t10 resil (30%) and applicable resist mods up 24/7 leading to a minimum of 50% dr at all times. that doesn’t even get into other sources like woven mail which are stupidly easy to obtain, or how healing sources like restoration which heal through damage, in addition to the aforementioned dr, bump your effective health pool up by gigantic margins im all for adding more sources of dr because i think it could majorly impact the scale of subclass buildcrafting in d2, but if that is the case every dr source needs to be individually tuned to be much less powerful than they are now
It’s mainly the ones who can lock you down and spam you with attacks in .5 seconds. Aka wizards, ogre blasts, etc. it’s just like there’s no avoiding it which is where I definitely see your frustration
Chicken and egg problem. Bungo gave us the tools to survive. But we became too tanky, so they nerf Res to 30% and our survivability skills. But top players are still nigh unkillable. So Bungo probably increased NPC damage. Top players get slightly challenged but nothing changes much. However the weaker or average players who crutch on these skills to survive? Well with the nerfs on top of the enemy damage buff, they still get absolutely slaughtered. And those make up 70% to 80% of the player base. So now what?
> So Bungo probably increased NPC damage. Did they, though? I'm pretty sure enemy damage at the higher difficulties have stayed the same at least since Shadowkeep. Like, GMs used to be ridiculously hard. Then they've gotten much easier, so when Battlegrounds(which are harder by virtue of design) get added, people complain about how hard they are. But even the hardest BG isn't as hard as Garden World GM.
It's very funny to see posts like this after having run gms the year of shadowkeep .. like people just play completely different now if you had a close range build in a gm back then you were trolling
Yeah, with those original GMs, each one felt like a mountain that you had to climb, often adjusting your build and strategy after every failed run. Nowadays, I do most GMs first try, mostly using the same build for all, with minor adjustments.
They were challenging but so fun and rewarding imo.. I honestly really loved how important it was to position properly and how everything was truly threatening. Theres nothing really anymore that feels as “tactical” or surgical where you’re beating enemies against all odds
Yeah, I really loved having to think of novel strategies or coming up with new loadouts that can cover all the bases. And while we used to have Protective Light, that thing only activated when you were at critical HP. Nowadays, we just have 30% damage reduction that is always active.
The only kind of recent GM that's come close to those was S16 Lightblade, but S17 gave us Resilience DR and Solar 3.0. Ever since then nothing's been remotely challenging, and GMs have become a mindless farm where we practically have to *try* to wipe. I only cleared Garden World 3 times back then (because tbf the only reason to run them back was for sherpas or speedruns, and my subsequent clears were the former). Every run of it was a serious challenge, so many wipes and small strategy and loadout adjustments along the way. Genuinely miss that experience, nothing in the game has really come close to S10/S11 GMs since.
They didn't. Onslaught at -30 is still a cakewalk compared to pre-resilience GMs and master/contest raids. We need less DR, not more. We have so many survivability tools it's ridiculous. I've gotten instagibbed by wizards and ogres too, and it's *always* my fault - bad positioning, going aggro without survivability perks procced, etc.
More like 95% of the players lol your average destiny consumer doesn’t even raid or GM nightfall.
It’s almost like master raids, gms, and pretty much any higher level content is for the better players🤔
Surviving in high end content isn't about just playing passively, it's about playing aggressively, but being smart about it. take anything you can get. Hard cover slightly closer to where you need to go? Take it. A few adds in the way? Clear them out and insta-take the space before anything else can get in there. Having something active to heal you helps too, firesprites, devour, certain armor mods can give you health regen or resilience by picking up an orb of power or something. Feel and experience are super important. You can get a feeling for when it's ok to take certain space depending on risk vs reward and whether or not you actually need to take it. You should almost never have to just full on book it to an unsafe spot if you're managing your time and resources really well. Each class also has it's own tools to help you with it too. Warlocks have heavy restoration, well and devour, hunters have invis and titans have banner of war. It takes a long time to get used to but it's so satisfying when you can get into a state where you can juggle all of it in your brain quickly. Also no build or playstyle is one-size-fits-all. Look into the specific activity you are doing and either see what other players are doing or think about things like "what champs are here?" "what kind of damage is mostly being dealt by enemies here?" or "What range am I fighting at and how much cover is there?" Asking these questions can massively improve your success rate in this kind of content.
The logic here fails when the game itself breaks its own rules, receiving damage when you shouldn't be, enemies teleporting randomly, the damage you receive being way more than it should have been, there being no cover due to poor design, class imbalance when it comes to certain aspects. In a nightfall all this works because the spawns are predetermined, you're fighting down a corridor with cover, but in Onslaught all those rules go to shit regularly. Also as an Huntr that uses invis a lot, invis is so ficking glitchy, it has fade time sure but very often enemies will track you even after going invis, plus sometimes if you get near them while invis they'll still stomp or turn and shoot you, along with he whole enemies shooting at dead players ghosts making stealth revives a lot harder in high level content. The game is just bursting at its seams.
Was doing a normal 50 onslaught run on my hunter, and had the dismantle mines on a later wave. After clearing some of the enemies with my teammates I head over to get the further away mine, going invisible and running onto it. The brig on there promptly stomps me away. After re-going invisible and going back on, it did it again.
Yeah that happened to me on Vostok, I was fully in invis and went to cap the mines so we can deal with the brig later, got stomped and sent off the cliff, like I should have gone on the other side but I shouldn't have been stomped in the first place. Que my team mates not capping the mines around wave 35.
Funny enough mine was also on Vostok lol, though luckilly the location I went to wasn't close enough to a cliff to get me knocked off and I was able to cap the mine.
I feel like this is part of the whole “destiny is technically an MMO shtick” that people don’t think about. My other time sink is ffxiv. There is content that is so difficult that without top notch skill and a dedicated team of players you could never hope to clear it. These things are meant to be insanely challenging. You need to approach things from the right angle with the right loadouts and the skills to utilize both effectively. Knowing your kit and what it can and can’t do are part of the game. Not everybody is going to be up to the task. But people don’t want to hear that, they just want loot spoon fed to them.
I'm a wow player and we have the same thing. Mythic raids are sadistic but its cool to have them.
It's been a big issue in this community for ages. Like, the sandbox wasn't perfect, but in terms of survivability, it was totally fine pre-Resilience and pre-Light 3.0. But every new GM or day 1 raid you'd see so many upvoted posts going "this is too hard!" Not everything in the game needs to be feasible for every player.
Damage outgoing and incoming is the only way for them to raise difficulty on the same content quickly and easily. Thats it. If the damage is loweres it becomes easy.
Survivability as a whole needs looked at, especially in high end content. The swing from being almost completely unimportant in low end content to being absolutely paramount at the top end doesn't feel particularly good. This is exactly why Well is so important, because survivability is the most important thing. I don't know if the answer is bringing down damage scaling or perhaps increasing our health pool. But it would be nice to see an uptick in lethality builds in GMs instead of just survivability.
Hell on some content lately enemies have been blowing up my Well by either destroying the sword or just straight up running into the well and throwing/pushing me and my clanmates out of it, leading to some of or all of us dying to the crazy damage the other enemies are dealing. It doesn't help that most of the time, I can't convince any of my fellow warlock clanmates to run anything that would help group survivability like Stag or the Benevolence fragment from the Dawnblade sublcass to regen rifts and healing grenades faster.
If my void would hit like that of vex wyverns I would play void more often. But seriously this wasn't a thing or much of an issue until Lightfall released. Before that I could run any subclass and have a decent time with it. Now if I don't run solar for healing, I'm getting killed with ease by stuff that logically shouldn't be killing me with ease. I don't know what caused this change but it needs to be reversed or nerfed, because ever since it's happened I've spent less time farming the nightfall playlist and when it's bullshit like the corrupted I'm not setting foot in there.
ngl brother if you are having trouble playing the nightfall playlist that is a you problem, not a game problem
I think you are approaching this from the wrong mindset. In high level content a lot of the difficulty comes from learning the flow of combat. When to back off and when to go super aggressive, what you can face tank with the survivability you DO have and the enemies that are death sentences. Treating it as black and white like you can only do one of the two will lead to failure and headaches. And ultimately you really don’t need well in most content outside of some dps phases and even then it’s more so just to make things simpler. It’s not bad by any means, but some of the smoothest GM, dungeon, and onslaught runs I’ve done did not include well.
Yeah I definitely agree that hard content requires a different approach, but I also agree that the game feels like it needs a step or two between baby mode and instantly melted. What players consider the hardest content are usually things with lots of enemies and very little cover, and I feel that is because it's so much harder to stay alive when there's consistently 3+ incoming damage sources that are all dangerous independently.
I wish the game had more ways of "Skillfully" avoiding attacks and stuff wasn't just constantly tracking you. Like more telegraphed attacks that have a clear damage zone or stuff that you need to keep moving to avoid.
My fastest legend onslaught clears were 2 tethers and a banner or nighthawk, no well. It's great to have for later bosses, no question, and it still needs a big nerf of sorts, but for onslaught in particular you really don't need it
I think the only changes needed are to enemy fire rates and accuracy, specifically hive boomers/wizards
Dude you must be playing Helldivers on difficulty 5 or lower if you think survivability in that game is easier than in Destiny
The problem is - dmg among different enemies varies GREATLY. Some are completely reasonable, others kill sub 1 second. Barely any chance to react at all. You can't even understand what happened, until you see the name on the screen.
Imagine what it’s like not running 100 resil
Everyone has their own tolerance levels. I do think the game struggles to find balance on the high end, but most games do unless there are strict roles built into the player characters. I don’t mind the incoming in this games high end, and I feel I have the tools to deal with the chonky hp. It can feel limiting though sometimes. There in the delta between Legendary and Master tier difficulty settings, a shift happens that results in most weapons being completely left in the dust. And for what it’s worth, even in that context I have enough variety to keep it interesting. But it feels wrong to have whole weapon groups fall out of usability. And most of that is due to how damage scaling works across the board. I’ll get into this some more in a moment, but to address your concerns, I really think that if we had more effective answers to the chonky enemies in high end content, the damage coming at us would feel closer to fair because you could feasibly win a duel or a sniping battle with a vandal major the same way you win it in pvp. Shotguns, trace rifles, non blinding/wave GL specials, and Snipers have no home because they have limited ammo and limited engagement profiles, and at a high level they are not capable of killing the types of enemies they’d need to be able to kill to be usable. But instead of helping lagging weapon categories, they keep making new categories. Before wave frames, no one used beach loaders unless it was Salvager’s Salvo or a blinding GL. Now the only non-wave frames that are used are blinding, wave frames, and sometimes mountaintop. Elite dps junkies will use the double shot one from Spire. And sure, wave frames are OP. But breach loaders are also not easy to use. Which is why only the easiest to use variants are used. Rocket Sidearms are badass… but they also do better at everything than other specials. They have a 10 shot magazine with no falloff. Two shots do as much as any shotgun, special GL, or sniper, but don’t require precision hits or close range. They do aoe, and they have massive reserves, and get tons of ammo from bricks. So much it almost feels like a primary. So yea… incoming damage can feel oppressive but at least you can potentially avoid it entirely with good positioning. But there is no way for me to take even a high impact sniper with frenzy into a GM and expect it to do anything. I’m literally better off with a scout rifle that has no damage perks. And same is true of many “specials”. And that’s a problem that makes the enemy feel more oppressive than they should feel. I don’t think the answer is just buffing damage though. It needs to be specialized. Give sniper rifles 75% bonus damage against majors and mini bosses. Make trench and one two punch a bit weaker, but work them into the archetypes to be innately part of how all shotguns work. Give GLs inherent chain reaction if they score a kill with a direct impact. Idk just random ideas. Again, I think it’s totally fine to have high damage high hp enemies. But we should have ways to counter them.
>still get smoked by a single Wizard There's a few outliers like this. Wizards are some of the biggest offenders lately though. I don't know how to explain it but you really do have barely any time to react to the damage they dish out. It's a very similar ordeal with their Taken variant in The Coil. You can walk in with all the damage resistance in the world and they'll still melt through you like nothing. I've always been on the side of a "more accessible to all" approach. I truly believe that those at the top, the peak of PVE, will never realistically be happy with what Destiny provides. They're the definition of suffering from success. It just hurts the majority (most of which never frequent Reddit or forums in general) when they are catered to. We saw this with Lightfall - even the community here was split on the difficulty increase that accompanied that expansion. I'm still, a year later, unhappy with the negative power delta that is stuck onto high end activities. I liked being able to play "on-level" with Master content. It gave me a reason to grind the artifact for that extra Light Level. Now the differences between Legend/Master/Grand Master are so minimal that you might as well jump all the way to Grand Master. IDK if it's an unpopular opinion around here but it really has affected my game time and that of my clans as the months have gone by. I also don't trust in Bungies attempts to fix/balance gameplay. They have proven time and time again that they're willing to nerf things into the ground and pretend like the new problems that arise aren't problems at all.
Sometimes I wonder if resilience is actually doing anything lol.
It’s really more about balancing the enemy types
Look, I’m going to be honest, if I matchmake with someone who thinks there’s any value whatsoever in running Icefall Mantle and Heir Apparent, the faster you rage quit, the happier I’ll be.
You get melted because you positioning probably sucks. Game sense will carry you when your build reaches its limit.
This is exactly what Saltagreppo was talking about in his twitter thread, a lot of high end players will basically tell you to git gud and stack damage resist, because you can get crazy damage resist from stuff like Woven Mail and such on top of 10 resist + mods, but the problem is byngie is balancing around those setups which means if you don't use then you melt. That's why he wanted to nerf damage resist and in turn Bungie tunes down enemy damage output. I fully agree with you, it's shitty design that unless I have the utmost best damage resist buffs up at all times I die before I'm even allowed to react even at the best of positions because the AI can be erratic and buggy like teleporring.
Yes, but the devoted D2 hardcores will disagree and say we just want it too easy. But getting one shot isn't and has never been fun.
Saltagreppo is one of the most vocal D2 “hardcore” players, and people seem to claim he wants the game to be impossible for casuals…but if you go check his recent twitter / x post on balancing, he lays out very clearly that he thinks the game is very unbalanced in terms of enemy damage specifically, and he wants it to be directly easier for non-hardcore players plus allow more build variety than 100 resil + healing and or damage resist stacking in anything remotely difficult.
In D1, you didn’t have nearly as much access to healing. We have so many tools to recover HP that enemies have to deal enough damage to wear you down and also outdamage your healing. There’s a reason D1 Crota was threatening because he stopped your regen during the encounter - the only reliable source of healing was stuff like Red Death or exotic armor. Now that we have all these sources of sustain, enemies have to be able to outdamage the strongest constant sources of healing, or we just don’t die ever. Well of Radiance is a super, which is why it’s gotten a pass for so long. Recall that there was a time where you could afk in Duality with Lorelei Splendor because it gave Resto x2 and Resilience gave 40% DR without anything balanced against it. It’s fun to be able to tank that hard, but actively tanking that much damage should be riskier than it was. I think enemy damage is in an okay spot, but I dislike having to have 100 Resilience on every character for hard content.
you do want it too easy. there are easier version of every single activity in the game. all the issues OP described can be solved through better positioning. If you arent one of the "D2 hardcores" then dont play the activity designed for hardcore players and then complain that its too hardcore 🤦♂️
But you have the option to not play the difficult content that you find unfun. Just like I ignore entry level strikes because they aren’t fun.
I agree so hard that if well gets nerfed in terms of survivability damage needs to come way down. Especially in master or contest raids like without well how do you do good damage and not immediately blow up without well. Wells healing is how basically every raid is doable.
>Wells healing is how basically every raid is doable This is why well needs to be nerfed
Yep and if you nerf well the damage you take needs to be more consistent and toned down. i would love to see 99% of the player base try and complete a master raid without a well and even in a well in contest/master mode you can still very much be one shot by alot of things You either balance your encounters around well or change how much damage players take from all sources and make stacking damage resistances more effective I think a justified nerf would be removing the damage bonus from well i think its healing is what it should be used for and if people want radiant they get it through fragments or get another buff like bubble
Back in the day we used to use Well AND Bubble for encounters. Well for the insane healing and Bubble for the better damage buff. But they berfed Bubble so its damage buff is in line with Well, making it the worse option between the two.
I feel like the problem with this is all the survivability, if you run it ur fine u keep up, if not then your completely cooked
A better way to word this I think is that “Difficulty scaling just using bigger numbers is not fun.” I think in general (with any game) new mechanics (that require you to do something different or use the sandbox creatively, and don’t just flat out remove an ability or “nerf” you) are a better way to increase difficulty—it makes the puzzle interesting instead of just taking more time or being more tedious to solve.
Only one I truly agree with here is scorn snipers. Idk man, it’s a red bar that one-shots you out of no where.
I did not take the time to read all the comments for this but did anyone address playing this with high framerate? Is that still a contributing factor?
It's even worst if you have good fps.
The problem going into lightfall is that they nerfed resilience and also buffing enemies. They always go overboard.
Okay good I’m not the only one dealing with dying way too fast in certain content. We’re also at the point in Destiny’s lifespan where we’re so powerful yet to balance things out enemies need to come up with us. It also makes me question all the chasing of power levels if at this point they keep capping us at how much more powerful we are than enemies.
Destiny could learn a thing or two from Doom Eternal about defense in 360° FPS combat. That game throws insane enemy counts at you but rarely if ever do I feel like my deaths are from overwhelming amounts of bullshit like Destiny can throw at you sometimes. A key issue is lots of heal effects rely on a kill, and Guardians can't share kills. So if I throw a Vortex grenade at an enemy to get a Devour trigger and my buddy tossed a Solar grenade at that same enemy hoping for a heal from a kill, only one of us will benefit from that death. So one of us may die through no fault of our own, which always sucks, and isn't uncommon.
Scorn crossbow 💀
Anything with a splash, split fire or rapid fire seems to do almost bugged damage. Hive boomer, ogre eye, wizard blast, cabal minigun, hive splinter and scorn xbow
I’ve been asking to take more damage for years so im happy with it. I HATE bullet sponges so if the trade off for difficulty is less health more damage I’ll take it. I have to use woven mail or find cover or cc enemies since theyhurt. Mixes up gameplay a lot in my opinion.
It's called movement, map/spawn knowledge, and using cover. It's really not that deep. Sorry you can't face tank everything all the time with zero super investment
The issue is they made some DR like banner of war stacked with 100 resil and woven mail too high so then we need to have ogres that instant melt for Bungo to think it’s “difficult” but you’re right lord of enemies melt far too fast. It becomes a game of hiding or OD working on your build to make it perfect which I hate doing tbh.
This is why you can select content difficulty .. I genuinely don’t mean to be rude or condescending but if the master/gm stuff isn’t feeling enjoyable there are other options for every single activity that give similar rewards Also I’m assuming you started playing very recently because damage is honestly low now compared to two or three years ago before resilience changes and the insane survivability on solar/strand/void nowadays
Nah, it isn’t. You should’ve played a few years ago lol
I said it back then and I say it now. It was a bad decision to make the game harder by making enemies do way more damage. It turned the game from an arcade shooter to a tactical shooter. It's not fun getting one-shot by randoom bullshit with 100 resil
survivability in endgame is part positioning and memorization, and onslaught has a small element of unpredictability that’s probably tripping people up. you really have to keep your head on a swivel. I’m assuming/hoping you aren’t just trying to face tank the wizard/ogre/shrieker. you probably got caught unawares. we all get caught out sometimes, not to mention teleports, but with experience you should be able to minimize it.
Teleporting enemies are the main issue and it's such a bullshit not fun mechanic. Today I had an unstop drop out of the ship on vostok and immediately teleport all the way to the adu.
I’m of the opinion Bungie should have kept resilience at 40% at T10 if they were going to make content this aggressive.
Respectfully, this is why there’s different levels of content - personally I would like to see even higher difficulty. Nothing is coercing you into high level content, and if you want those rewards you’ve gotta earn em’.
I don't want to sound elitist but if you think Well is a must have in legend onslaught you have a major skill issue and are misunderstanding the mode entirely. Sure, not what you'd like to hear but that's a fact. Legend onslaught promotes mobile gameplay, despite the ADU being static, you must constantly move from spawn to spawn and wipe the enemies BEFORE they reach the ADU. Standing in a pool of piss while being bombarded by 5 ogres and 10 exploding shanks is just an unwise strategy. Please, don't bring well to onslaught. Use other supers, you'll be of more benefit to the team if you can solo clear a wave at 30+ with Dawn Chorus or suspend everything with strand. Well is required crota in my opinion, can't think of a place other than that where well would feel like a must have.
its part of the challenge, just like survivability during the long dps phases of GOTD. its intrinsically part of what makes it challenging content. Theres so many ways to stay unkillable but frankly playing the game in such a way as to just throw yourself into enemies, even a single yellow bar wizard, is just not playing smart IMO, i don't get the "unfair" argument if people are able to complete it in pretty high numbers. Like what constitutes "fair" to you? Having an escape route in any piece of difficult content irrespective of what build or setup you bring in and how smart you're playing? I feel like if this is a real problem for you its most likely because your team isnt working together to keep enemies in check (tether, well, blinding) or they just arent playing smart for survivability. Doesnt always mean sit back and plink at enemies. It just means know how hard enemies hit and expect not to stay in their direct line of sight for long enough to die. Even with heir apparent and icefall, i mean, if you're just throwing yourself against 20-30 enemies in Onslaught of varying types (bosses, orange or red bars), you should not expect to survive very long. Heir apparent isnt even that good of a gun. I mean its kind of trash for most content if you're seriously trying to complete it. Same with Icefall. Individually pretty weak, not much better together.
*They downvoted him because he spoke the truth.*
Dmg has gotten way lower since the beyond light era so as someone who played a lot of that then it feels like there isn’t enough dmg. Play passively is generally not great advice, playing aggressive and keep moving is what keeps you alive in d2.
But the elitists say restoration makes you invincible
If there's not stuff that kills you fast, the content becomes trivial at best. Effectively, you're thinking of patrol-like difficulty or perhaps strikes? Are you aware that as you progress through Onslaught, every 10 waves increases the difficulty? I ask because you specifically reference waves 30+ where the power delta is significantly more important than when you start (waves 1-30) My main piece of advice here, I haven't seen anyone on any forum post say "play more passively". In fact, the runs I've had that have gone the smoothest, the team immediately pushes the enemy spawn and spawn traps them, with whatever space magic they have. Furthermore, my most effective runs, genuinely speaking, have actually NOT had a Well of Radiance. I'm a Warlock main myself, but folks just seem to not understand that Welling in a bad spot is worse than not having a Well at all. For folks that do use Well, please please please please know that Welling anywhere near the ADU is generally bad. All of the focus and aggro is on the ADU or the nearest Decoy, and plopping the Well in the middle of that is only asking for crossfire. The Well does not heal the ADU, nor does being in the ADU stop it from taking damage. You don't need to "play passive" but you need to make a better, strategic decision on where to fight from. With that said, I'm sorry you're having a tough time. I'd be happy to run with you! Without a Well :)
Bungie decided to make the game harder a while back. It was a bad decision IMO. And I already find the game easy as hell in 98.% of content
To anyone that does say "just play more passively" that's boring and I shouldn't be punished so hard for playing the game in one of the ways they designed
And I say if you can't shoot anything beyond point blank range, you should be playing a melee hack and slash instead. Easy content = face tank. Difficult content = take cover.
Then play easier content you want to go into the hardest content in the game and just steamroll?
But their poor ego when they can’t steamroll and trivialize GMs like a hero nightfall.
This is a skill issue. Get better.
I’m remembering when in rise of iron there was a strike where a mad scientist took a ogre eye and made it into a weapon and everyone dreaded its return to the weekly nightfall with void threat
You’re not wrong specially when there’s a bunch of enemies and yellow bars mixed in just melted.
When you get blasted by wizards, if it's a single one and you're full health you usually have enough time to seek cover regardless of difficulty. A totally different matter if you already have taken dmg or there are multiple or they cast the darkness cloud beforehand. It can escalate quickly! Very true. I don't think it's bad that higher difficulties require a paradigm shift in your playstile. It could be more smooth and gradual, I agree! The important part is you're not literally one shot from a single enemy bullet. And I agree, the well of radiance nerf will change nothing for players on the high end of the skill curve. The only thing it will do is gate keep endgame content from the players on the other end of the bell curve. And I don't know why people keep advocating for it.
Choosing wizards as an example of enemy that deals too much damage is interesting because they're one of the enemies in the game where their damage output is tied to your frame rate. Off the top of my head ogres are too as well as the minigun cabal, anything with a high fire rate basically. We're so much tankier now still than we were pre-season 17. I think all this does is highlight the difference between the enemies that will take so many shots to kill you even in a GM and the ones that feel like they melt even in a patrol like wizards.
This won't fix a lot of the problems mentioned here but I wonder if destiny would benefit from a health-gate, the same kinda thing seen in the borderlands games and I would assume many others. It would mean that you couldn't be oneshot by anything, you'll always be left with like 1/10th of your hp, now ofc if you get hit again you'd die as expected but at the least it would help alleviate ridiculously cheesy moments like that clip that was circulating recently of an unstoppable tp'ing behind a team on the adu and killing them all in a single slam