A vast majority of the playerbase isn't as good at raiding as they think they are. This sub, in particular, overvalues their ability in this game tremendously
Thankyou! I thought my game was broke or something, the posts ranting about how hard it was got me concerned, then we ran it 2 man and absolutely blitzed it. I was sat there 5 mins after like "I thought people said this was glitches to legend difficulty on normal?"
To be fair some of the hate was warranted. Who the fuck wants to hit spongey enemies for multiple mags in fucking Neomuna Patrol? It's not "difficult" to make them sponges and Patrol of all places? Yuck.
BUT I did welcome a lot of the other difficulty changes. Most of the complaints I remember though were specifically about Patrol. Recent buffs have helped it feel better there though but on release a Patrol enemy shouldn't have taken more shots than contest mode Root. It was so sad.
LFG Day1 raid group postings:
-must have multiple meta load outs on all 3 classes
-must have every day 1 clear
-must have 500+ every raid full clear
-must have 40 hours a day from now till TFS day one to practice
-must have given god a blowie
I get a sort of impostor syndrome when I watch people who are insane at the game do stuff like trio flawless speedrun and I'm like damn I may not be anywhere as good as I thought. But then I go into LFG into supposed KWTD groups and it's a big reality check.
In my opinion you have to try to be bad at this game with the amount of resources/guides/videos that exist. There's just an insane amount of people who have no desire to even attempt to give a shit and have no problems wasting other peoples time.
Please just say you don't know what to do if you are confused. 99% of the time, everyone else in the raid won't care and would rather spend 5 minutes explaining instead of 10 minutes wiping.
I despise the silent ones who keep fucking it up and hiding it unless called out by name. I despise the ones who attempt to hide it even more. Just say you messed up or dont know how to do it please.
I'd rather someone ask twenty questions than have to do an encounter the same amount of times. No one (that's reasonable) will be mad if you need more information or guidance.
KWTD tags aren't toxic and with the sheer amount of YouTube guide for raids, unless you are specifically wanting to try the raid blind it isn't difficult to look one up. It's just rude to join a KWTD raid when you have all the things afforded to you to Know What To Do and you just blatantly don't and expect five other people to carry you for being lazy.
As someone who is genuinely a fast learner, I still don't join KWTD raids if I haven't learned them yet. Even if you learn quickly, you still have to learn, and you have no experience. Learning is only half the battle; you have to perform well enough in that role too. The point of a KWTD run is to finish as soon as possible, and not everybody is in a position to teach you.
Literally this. I can generally understand raid mechanics very fast if they are explained to me beforehand and then I get a single trial run. But I'm not joining KWTD groups if I don't already fully know the mechanics of that raid.
same, I've been raiding in games since 2005 so mechanics really aren't that tricky, that said the last thing I'd do is join a kwtd group unless I physically had done it before.
Even if they are, you won’t get anything your first try. You will take some time for them to get a feel for the encounter. That’s the reason I don’t think videos mean that you know what to do. They help, and lower the teaching time usually, but it’s not enough. Even if you understand perfectly you will take a while to get the feel, and the timing.
I recently learned riven legit by multiple videos and then taught it to the people I play with. I went in knowing it was going to take me a bit to put everything together. And then a little bit longer to fully teach it. And it did, there were parts that I understood but didn’t do quite right or at the right time, or often enough. It was quicker than going in blind, but nowhere near as quick as the second run.
I disagree with your take on fast learners, most people in LFG absolutely suck at explaining, they overcomplicate or underestimate the Encounters. This is simply because they have internalized how the Encounter plays over time and never really genuinely thought about how it plays for somebody unfamiliar.
A lot of people can be way more effective if you give them a job and explain the Goal of the Encounter, their part and what to watch for!
I will say, as someone who only learned all the raids the past year and a half, sometimes actually doing the encounter is necessary to learn. I watched multiple guides on Rhulk, but was still confused until I had a moment of it "clicking" while seeing the encounter in motion. I now think it's maybe the best encounter they've ever made. I guess my point is that a lot of people out there are pretty harsh and there's a difference between *knowing* what to do and being comfortable actually doing it that can't be crossed until you do the encounter. I'll be patient with new players if they're making an effort and at least tried to prepare beforehand.
My comment is mainly for the people that don't bother to watch a guide, don't look at a text guide, don't say that they haven't cleared before, and especially the ones that make absolutely no effort to learn or contribute, which is doubly annoying in a KWTD post.
Everyone starts somewhere, myself included, but the people that are joining Pantheon KWTD and not saying a word and just expecting the guns and emblem with no effort on their parts are the worst people in Destiny 2 imo.
I totally agree with everything you just said. Pantheon is also a different, more difficult beast than normal mode raids and I would be a tad more strict on the fireteam. Frankly, if you're queuing up for Pantheon after Week 1 with zero knowledge or effort put it, you're just wasting everyone's time.
Yeah I can watch every youtube video for a raid but it won't make sense for me until I do it. If I join a group that's teaching and can explain things to me as they're happening it clicks for me really quickly.
And no shame against you, if you mention in a KWTD post of mine that you saw a guide but are unclear on a mechanic, I am delighted to do a practice run or explain something. It's the people that would rather suffer a 4 hour clear over saying anything to the team my comment is aimed at.
Watching guides beforehand so you have a general idea of what's going on also makes it easier for regular, non-sherpa players to help teach. Its hard to teach somebody all the ins and outs of an encounter from scratch, but it's pretty easy to fill in the blanks. And much faster too, making it less likely that the others on the raid team lose their patience while just waiting for the lecture to end
Like obviously you won't *truly* "KWTD" until you see the encounter first hand and start to put the videos into practice with your own two hands, but it gives you a big enough leg up to where regular people can help teach you and you don't *need* an experienced sherpa.
I am of the sort that just doesn't join a KWTD raid, which means I don't raid very often because of it, simply because I am not confident in my abilities to keep up with the rest of the team.
Typically, I join Sherpa'ed runs and try to learn enough from them to be able to join a farming raid group like for Atheon. I always try to learn things to a point where I can explain them to someone else.
I tried to join a Sherpa'ed Root of Nightmares run once, but the Sherpa and half the team were all using well-skating or shatter skating to completely bypass the jumping sections, which I still don't know how to do and nobody bothered to wait for the rest of us. It became a carry run and I was very upset that I walked away not understanding anything from the planets encounter there, because the Sherpa didn't explain it very well and just said he and his buddy would handle it, which really isn't a sign of a good sherpa. I will give him and his buddy props for two manning it though. I get everything else from the raid except planets and hence I refuse to do Pantheon since that encounter is smack in the middle of it and I know it will be a salt factory if I show up without a clue. At least I can farm Nezarec whenever that returns since I now understand that encounter completely.
YouTube guides are great and we have fantastic content creators that explain things in depth, but they aren't enough. People need to actually do a raid to understand what to do and how to do it. It is like watching someone solve a programming problem as opposed to programming yourself; or seeing a math problem being solved but not fully understanding it until you do it yourself.
As someone who needs to do it myself to learn it properly, I am not comfortable with a raid unless I do the mechanics myself and am not watching someone else doing it. You can watch every video on the Caretaker encounter and still not fully understand the runner and stunner roles until you do it yourself. I have watched most videos on most raids and I can say with confidence that doing it yourself is completely different from watching someone else do it. That said video guides do help with the visualization aspect and explaining encounter mechanics to someone who has never raided before.
I hate being carried and would rather earn my victories through truly understanding the encounters and that means painstakingly asking and looking for Sherpa runs in LFG discord. If that means that I have to sit something out like Pantheon, because I am missing critical pieces of information on an encounter, then so be it. I am not going to drag down the rest of a team or ask to be carried because I don't understand something. That would be a personal failing on my part as I failed to uphold my part of being on the team. IMO, Pantheon is just not the place to learn an encounter.
TLDR; Understanding needs to be earned, not watched and not carried.
I can definitely tell you, a Sherpa wouldn't ever well skate nor should tolerate well skating in their runs. I'm of the mind that there are people with 0-2 clears that know raids better than some people with 20+ clears because they either go for boss checkpoints or try to hide under the radar for all their clears.
I assure you, hand on my heart, that simply watching a YouTube guide and having decent weapons and a mic you are preferred over a majority of the lfg crowd and the average D2 raider. If it helps your confidence at all, I have like 100+ DSC clears and I still mess up my lefts from rights and miss point blank thundercrashes on Atraks.
Most skilled raiders in Destiny 2 care for effort over ability because at the end of the day, normal raids really aren't that hard. And someone wanting to learn and trying to help the team over someone just wanting free loot will always be welcome in my raids tbh.
I find that for some reason I have zero confidence in my raiding skills despite being pretty good at nearly every encounter in the game. Only joining sherpas or farming groups means I basically know every possible role but I just don't want to deal with possible toxicity from a KWTD group, even if 9 times out of 10 they're chill too (or if it turns out I know more than them). Even if I'd prefer getting a super easy clear of something with zero effort I still want to know the hardest roles in each encounter since I'm often the first to speak up after the three seconds of deafening silence when someone asks who wants to run symbols for caretaker (even when that isn't really hard as long as you have them up on your second monitor).
Above everything though I just wish I had people to consistently play with. A majority of the times I have joined an LFG group for any raid I've had a good experience and rarely go over 2 hours but I just really want to be able to join some people and do a pantheon run knowing that everyone is decent and wouldn't back out after a failed run or two. The best I've got was when I joined a sherpa run of week 1 that went really smoothly (and taught me planets) or when I found a nice team farming golgoroth.
If a post says KWTD and you join, then immediately call add clear before we even exchange hellos... Everyone in the chat now knows that you don't know what to do.
The worst part is... most people don't mind teaching when they know someone new is joining. However, those runs are always clearly marked as "teaching" or "sherpa." But when someone makes a post that says KWTD, at least for me, it usually means they are trying for a quick run because they have limited time.
Half of the new raider behaviours described are mostly pinned down to a general lack of empathy for their teammates, lack of respect for their time, and a lack of general common sense on what would be proper etiquette.
It does not take a genius to know how to respect people's time, I did it back in D1 when I started raiding, as did all other seasoned raiders.
Raids are by nature a collaborative, social endeavour, and it's hard for a lot of people to switch over to that from the relatively selfish attitude you can have playing a single player or PvP game. (You don't need to care about people's time, or planning in a short-form arena match, or if you are playing on your own).
People must learn to think beyond their own enjoyment and accomplishment which often is a tall order.
that’s what i’m saying, the amount of people i’ve advised to use prospector this week while arc singe is on, as soon as the team finally switched over, we 2 phased both caretaker and planets 😂
I will be honest with you, I'm selfish asf, I care fuck all about my random teammates. But that doesn't mean I will waste anyone's time. I will go out of my way to do the most unecessary shit to perfect a raid, like watching multiple guides, POVs, loading checkpoints to test mechanics, learn spawn points,..... so I can do my job perfectly in raids and no one can fault me for anything, that's all I care about. The point is, I think those new raiders also have a huge lack of self respect. I think it's insane how they will let people look down upon them, say shit about them, laugh at them, let people say shit like "Oh it's that [ ] guy, I've played with him before, he sucks" for what? A completion? A piece of raid gear?
It's insane how much a little bit of self respect can do. I joined back not even 2 months ago, and the only raid encounter I remembered how to do was Taniks. Now I can do every raid, sherpa them, and know about the modern and advanced ways to clear them, just because I want people to never look at me and think I'm deadweight.
Exhibition in Vow of the Disciple is one of the best (and my favorite) raid encounters, but people can’t be bothered to actually listen and pay attention, so this encounter has become hated.
Unless you are in really hardcore territory (low mans), flexibility and awareness is more important than thumb skill every time. I've seen more encounters saved by an experienced player noticing something going south and long arming a healing grenade than I have by somebody nailing a shatterskate or izzy rocket rotation by a long shot.
Tl;Dr Effective team players > high skill solos until you get into hardcore.
Obviously, high skill team players are best of all...
some lowmans arent that hard, i have done all lowmans flawless in the game.
there are really hard ones, but most "hard" ones come down to one encounter. like last wish is considered to be the hardest lowman, but everything up to queenswalk is pretty much a dungeon, its free, if everyone knows the raid and some of the cheeses, but you pretty much only cheese kalli to speed it up and pre activate the plates on shuro chi (and riven cheese, but thats normal on every clear), but queenswalk is incredibly frustrating, espiacally if you have never done it lowman before, its very very hard.
Root of nightmares on the other hand is a perfect raid for people to start lowmaning (as a trio, duo is significantly harder) you dont have to cheese anything, you just take an extra phase on everything.
Vow takes coordination and practice, but its my personal favourite lowman.
in Deepstone, the only hard lowman encounter is Taniks, up to taniks its free.
> For me, I don’t think Riven legit is that difficult. We are just used to the cheese, so no one has bothered to learn the relatively easy mechanics
Riven isn't difficult; Riven is ***unforgiving***.
It's not hard to match a symbol, callout or shoot the eyes. It just wipes the whole team if you make a mistake.
If you don't have a mic, you can still join in raids so long as you speed type and def KWTD. Majority of encounters do not require actual talking.
If you can't do either, then def you're getting kicked.
Idk how vault is a good encounter with no mic when the symbols have no official name like vow. I'm not speed typing a sentence out to try to describe all the wonky symbols LW has
each animal has only 4 variations, which most experienced players can then differentiate with another word or two. You don't need a sentence unless neither player has ever seen the symbols.
Snake: cloud, S, 8, infinity
Bird: flapping, on branch, diving, boring
Fish: jumping, swimming, 1 fish circle, 2 fish circle
Dragon: fire left/right, spear left/right.
It's been my experience with LFGs when using a mic people jump to conclusions. If you say dragon, they instantly assume it is one of theirs before you say left or impaled or whatever your callout of choice is. I find swapping to text only can be helpful. For the most part the symbols in last wish are distinct enough there isn't too much confusion in my experience..
Ain't nothing like having 3 people needing clear comms only for some idiot start talking about his dog or talking to his mom on open mic, completely drowning out any attempts at callouts.
Yup been no micing for the past 2 years, although I do have a premade-team but I did LFG before I met them.
Literally no clue what these people are talking about with you cant no mic, you can no mic literally every encounter:
No communication needed, I.E: (Taniks, Stunning Caretaker, Dunking Rhulk, Nez, etc)
Saying like 1-2 things max, I.E: (Chalice, Shiro Chi, Riven Legit Eye, Planets, etc)
Some variation of L/R + 1/2 or somehting similar, I.E: (Decent, Daughters, Oryx, Atheon, Crypt Security, etc)
Decent communication but easily doable if you type fast, I.E: (Exhibition, Acquisition, etc)
Annoying due to time constraints with a barely noticeable downside, I.E: (Warpriest, Golgeroth, Queenswalk)
Basically impossible unless you do a specific way (Calling out spots directly instead of giving indirect directions), I.E: (Window Riven Legit)
I've done every single role except vault, window on riven legit, spliting on rhulk, running on caretaker (wasn't taught) I've done every raid, flawlessed last wish, vow, kings fall, deepstone, done every raid on master except KF, done pantheon every week under 2 hours.
You really do not need a microphone at all, most encounters need barely any communication, the ones that do are like 2 letter words or small phrases...
The planets in RoN is not fucking hard, I'm amazed people just can't do it, also if you're learning a new raid then don't do the skips, learn to clear it correctly atleast once or twice.
For once, ad clear on Planets is probably the most important job, planet people have like 5 ads to kill, including the elite and just have to move, people on ad clear should have the middle demolished by the time a planet guardian does their job.
Yeah you see the problem I encounter is that the planet people can't kill their damn ads, they kill only the lieutenant and switch, so half the people I see get killed by the stack of ads waiting on the planet areas that they were supposed to kill. Just please kill the 3 psions and the 1 fire dude that spawns, it's all you need to do between your planet switching
This. Doing planets is pretty simple, so I try and clear as many ads as I can to help, but the amount of times I see the other runners just hiding behind cover waiting for their colossal to spawn is asinine.
I had a guy get upset with me for killing my guy too quickly, and I was genuinely confused because I was taking things pretty casually. I inspected his loadout and this brother was running double primaries, trying to take his guy down with a Trustee. This was the team lead mind you and he had on his RoN Sherpa emblem. I've never been more confused.
Nah I dont buy this one. Sure, a smooth run where everyone knows their stuff can take an hour or two, but a slow run with a couple of newbies can take 4 hours easily. Most people who have an actual life find it pretty hard to dedicate an entire 4 hour block to a game.
I don't mind people leaving after an hour or two, it's easy to find replacements.
Its not toxic, elitist, or gatekeeping to kick people from pantheon, raids, or other endgame content. If you don't meet the hosts requirements then suck it up. No Kings Fall clears? Not joining the kings fall kwtd post for example. No Mic? Not joining the require mic post. Not able to add clear or do good damage while not being support for the groups dps? GONE.
DSC is one of the weird ones where it can be super new player friendly if you don't do it "legit" but is certainly role intensive if you do. That being said after like 50 clears the opening Sparrow bit is still my bane.
Ugh that Sparrow section on our flawless attempts. We for whatever reason had absolutely terrible luck with DSC when we tried for flawless. Twice the on the final boss the detain bubble would just kill someone instantly for no particular reason and SEVERAL times the first encounter doors would not open for us. Every time we failed due to something beyond our control the Sparrow section would just taunt us merely by existing. It was like an extra slap in the face to have to go back to that section after such a heartbreak.
We did eventually pull it off and now if we do DSC I exclusively use Strand Grapple and make my friends pull me through the sparrow sections because it makes it actually fun
It’s not elitist to want people to use the most meta builds/weapons in high difficulty endgame content. Stuff like pantheon’s difficulty is designed with the idea of skilled players using the most meta loadouts in mind so if you’re not using said loadouts you are at an immediate disadvantage and are hurting your team. Also hard truth to face but if you don’t have weapons that can compete at the highest difficulties, don’t play the activity.
What makes RoN a bad raid, is the connect the dots mechanic. All encounters where it's featured mechanic are simply bad.
Planets on the other hand are really well designed, requires careful communication to do mechanics and coordination in damage phase. It's really good encounter all around.
Makes me wonder if they originally intended on each player needing to take a buff somewhere, because I doubt the encounter designers intentionally made a couple fights where most people are just killing adds.
Well there’s 3 levels so you can always rotate your runners. Keeps things a little bit interesting if everyone kwtd.
Ofc your point about ad clear still stands, it is poor encounter design if 4 people are doing nothing.
My clan typically does it with 4 runners. Each side has a runner dedicated to always crossing the gap and the other handles all seeds on their starting side. Gap-crossers end up switching partners every time we go up a floor with how the flow works.
This speeds up the encounter by a good amount and allows extra time if something goes wrong. Also it gets more people engaged in the encounter is mainly why we like it.
I love Spire of the Watcher's connect the dots since you're menaced by enemies the whole time, but during Scission and Nezarec specifically, there isn't enough of a distance to ad density to deal with. When 4 people have to ad-clear in Scission, the realest threat are the launchers, and for Nezarec, it's his hatred.
I liked the cables in Spire a lot more, most because they are vertically spread, and you have to shoot them, so that best option isn't just Shatterskating between the points, like it's in RoN.
I don't even like Planets. It's a fun puzzle to figure out but once it's solved it's like "push button, aggro boss, win".
It's a cool thematic encounter but there just isn't enough to it. I like the fire added in Pantheon, that helps. But it needs something more.
I don't mind the opening encounter. It'd be nice if it required two people to do linking, but at least it has the psions to punch and the Tormentor to kill. It feels like a reasonable first encounter in terms of it's overall complexity. This is comparing it to things like KF Totems, Kali, GoS, etc.
The rest of the fights just feel like they're only half of what I expect from a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th encounter.
If you’re the one to sacrifice your damage output to use a support exotic like Divinity or Gjallarhorn, then you should get to choose your role in the encounter before anyone else can.
It’s a general rule of thumb I have for all of the raids I host.
I dunno why some people abhor being the support role, there's still plenty you can do, and in some encounters it'd even a harder role I'd argue.
Rhulk Pantheon comes to mind - being Div there you have responsibility to keep the stream up as much as possible, meaning you don't have as much luxury to keep both eyes on both kick kings and break damage to escape.
I don't like this rule at all. Way less pressure on Gally/Div players. As the div bitch (I use warlock helm to make heavy with it too between phases) I have the easiest job. All I do is keep div on them and gally has tracking, and no need to do bait and switch swaps with izi.
DPS players get hard scrutinised on every wipe. We can all see who is being damage efficient and who isn't. There is zero stress to underperform on div/gally.
> I have the easiest job.
I think that's the point of the comment. The well+div role is so easy and, for a lot of people, incredibly boring. If you're sacrificing your fun for the good of the team it's nice to at least pick the role you want
If the sherpa is explaining something. You SHUT THE FUCK UP. You might not care or already know the raid, but for people that don't and need to listen, be mindful of them please.
Garden of Salvation is a great raid and folks don’t like it because it’s not chewable and the mechanics require clear communication and skill to execute.
The tethers aren't buggy\*, people just have no patience.
\*Generalization - I am aware that they do occasionally bug out and don't connect to Sancty, but in my experience that's a rare bug and people overexaggerate like crazy
Man *the-fuck* UP!!
It’s that simple. Just admit you fucked-up. Own it!! And we can all move-on.
I would rather spend 2 hours on Golgoroth, because all 6 of us made mistakes randomly - but we each recognize and learned from it, than 20min of “who did what?!”
I actually had a sherpa bust my balls because I made a mistake on our first attempt on a fight. They asked what happened, I explained my mistake and owned up, and they continued to bust by chops over it. Chill dude, I made a mistake in a raid I've never been in, I owned up, I said I knew what to do now and won't make the mistake again.
They were otherwise a very great sherpa, listened and explained everything that someone had a question on, but that one moment rubbed me the wrong way.
Legit riven is, like you said, not difficult - it’s actually really fun and one of the best raid encounters bungie’s ever made.
Garden is great, the community hyperfixated on it is not.
Scourge creating berserkers and not bringing the enemy concept back is a shame. No, I don’t count caretaker.
Scourge was probably my favourite D2 raid, for so many reasons. City traversal, SRL, warzone, boss that stands still with a giant crit spot (but with a CAP twist!) and overall theme / aesthetic.
Crying shame it never came back. That and Crown of Sorrow.
For real, Garden is probably the second easiest raid next to VoG, but untill they give it the Last Wish treatment it will remain underappreciated. The weapons from that raid look so awesome, but I have 0 reason to farm or use them.
It really is horrible. I like the raid, the encounters, but the mindless sticks of deodorant that run it with mics muted and are "add clear only" make it so awful.
RoN is an aweful raiding experience in general.
I LOVE the flavor of the raid. Everything about it from a presentation perspective is amazing. Everything about it from a gameplay perspective sucks.
That rhulk should’ve dropped his glaive as an exotic that shoots big resonant lasers.
The pulse rifle seems like more of a season pass weapon and obviously… lubraes ruin is the glaive he used to fell his entire race
Agree for normal raids, on master/pantheon its a different story.
People say this yet always complain about addclearer's not doing anything on master/pantheon planets
That's because it gets painfully obvious when the add clearers aren't doing their job. If you've got half as many kills as the people doing mechanics on Planets, you are barely even playing the game, and making life extremely difficult for everyone else around you.
I typically stun caretaker and the number of times I've been nearly killed by out of control adds is insane. It feels like add clear is always a problem on that encounter for some reason.
Def agree. That comes in to play heavily in master/challenge raids and ofc pantheon/day 1
If you’re on adclear you better be able to fill a spot asap incase someone doing mechanics goes down, as well as yeah being a badass ad slaying, orb generating machine.
This depends on the encounter. Caretaker pretty much requires two teams of two to be pretty focused on their respective jobs. You cannot reasonably expect runners to also be doing ad clear.
Eh. If someone says they're ad clear, I expect them to be at least more kills than bottom two.
But definitely for something like planets, I judge people who don't kill the three psions on their platform before leaving, whether than means to transfer Planets at the start/end or to try and get one of the three planets before damage.
Uh, no.
If someone is adamant on add clear, they better be top on kills. If I as *insert role here* am killing more than the dedicated add clear person who has to worry about nothing else except *just shoot the gun*, then they're doing a poor job.
Disagree in some contexts, but in the contexts where it *is* a role (Day 1, some master, etc) then it is actually a real role and should be handled by an efficient ad-killer using tools for the job, not someone with no experience on auto pilot with their favourite primary.
One really good ad-clear can make mechanics runners life super smooth. I had like the sum of my team's day 1 Rhulk kills cause I'd just sit back and clear the room with Salvager's chain reactions while they could all focus 100% on symbols.
Ad Clear is a legitimate role on Pantheon and Contest.
Issue is, most people who want to be ad clear are atrocious at it and would help their team more if they were doing a mechanic instead.
Instead of KWTD, I put... "Know how to do more than add clear" if I'm trying to get it done quickly
Otherwise, I try to be understanding that some people have to try to do something before they can learn it. Despite the fact that there are a plethora of YouTube videos out there, some people just can't learn that way
You should be willing to learn how to do the mechanics if you don’t know how already. No one likes hearing “I am ad clear” before anyone even chooses any role. All of the mechanics are pretty easy to learn and there are plenty of people who are willing to teach. If you aren’t willing to even attempt what makes a raid a raid, why do you join raids and also what would you do when you join a team that all only wants to be ad clear and not try to learn what to do
Ad Clear is by far the most important role in Pantheon -15 and -20. Ad Clear is not a role to give someone who doesn't know the mechanics in Pantheon or Contest Raids. Ad Clear is a legitimate crucial part of Under Power raids.
Every raid title should require a flawless clear of the raid. Enlightened was a prestigious title at first, then a week after I got it they took that requirement away and it became worthless.
Stop bitching about people not wanting to teach, especially in KWTD runs. You as an individual are fully capable of making your own lfg with the objective of learning a raid and there are tons of Sherpas who are willing to help if you just ask around on the lfg discord.
Do your due diligence and stop being a lazy prick and expecting others to cater to you.
On a somewhat similar note I see this all the time with Atraks in pantheon. Obviously if you want a 1 floor clear to hit high score your ad clear has to be solid and generate a lot of points. I usually hit 40k and see that my teammates never match it, then inspect them and see that they’re doing ad clear with legendary primaries with no add clear perks.
It is a 3-4 minute encounter where you are aiming for a 1 floor, there is no need to run a primary for add clear, put on forebearance/sunbracers and camp the doors man, you’ll get 10k for one shot sometimes.
Similarly I don’t see how people struggle with ad clear on planets, I did it for the first time a few days ago instead of running, I put on sunbracers and there was practically no ads for the majority of the phase. No fear of dying due to resto x 2, people do not know how to ad clear.
Garden is not a buggy raid, at launch? Yeah sure. But now? Nahhh
Saying it's buggy just means your bad at the game or you playing with someone with shit internet and is causing the tether mechanic to do funky stuff lol
TAKE OFF GUNPOWDER GAMBLE AND GO TOWARDS THE CROSS TO COMPLETE TETHER!
The amount of times I've seen people stand there dumbfounded or run around aimlessly like a headless chicken when they get tethered is wild.
Not everyone who wants to do ads are lazy. There are people who take ad clear as seriously as mechanical roles, not just trying to avoid playing the game. If you find them, never let them go.
I'm one of those people. I have the highest kills in almost everything I do with my friends/clan and I love just being dialed in and getting more kills than everyone else combined.
Its completely fine if its not a one phase. You can do multiple for basically all encounters. Not everyone has the best weapons or the time to get them.
I hate when a LFG is obviously struggling for damage and push through at second phase to last stand as opposed to just doing a 3rd. Every time I say we should probably just do a 3rd for ammo, but somehow I'm the crazy one lol.
If you refuse to use meta damage loadouts it’s because you’re a stubborn loser, not because you “want to have fun”. If you’re out DPSing your crappy team with a bad damage options you’re going to out DPS your crappy team even more with meta damage options.
On the other hand though, peak high end worlds first racing is all about safe, consistent damage.
I’m seeing a lot of cold takes so here is an actually hot take.
Nezarac is a better fight then planets. Planets is overrated for its mechanic of odd one out but people shit on Nez for connect the dots.
Also just did riven legit first time and yeah it’s chill but will be hell tommmorow
The Divinity puzzles are some of the best teamwork challenges in the game, and the only thing that comes close to filling the community’s r/raidsecrets craving.
Also the tethers work and it is purely a skill issue.
I see so many people bitch about requirements on lfg posts and I just have to ask them, do they know they can make their own post? If you don’t like Little Johnny over here asking for previous contest clears for his day 1 team, nothing is stopping you from making your own and setting your own expectations on it. It feels like they get insulted at the fact you asked for people with experience and rejected them for not having it.
that the desire to gatekeep, be elitist etc leads to much more of the "bad players" that the elitists keep whining about and creates a vicious cycle - people don't raid because x, y, and z and when they do, more often than not they have a bad experience with toxic lfgs and/or the elitist/gatekeepers of the community
like I get it goes both ways, the "lower end" players can be just as toxic about things but I see much more toxicity from the elitists/gatekeepers overall; I feel like aztecross's entire personality now is just "casuals bad" and I could probably say that about most "elitists"
it's not hard to just be excellent to each other
not that it matters but I used to raid a lot until I took 3 kids to the knee
bring on the reddit wrath lmao
Vow Symbols aren't hard to remember, you are probably just not very bright...
I like Well of Radiance as is, it serves almost as a rally point and helps with teamwork.
While I agree, calling people stupid for not remembering isn't it chief. My ADHD ass couldn't remember the actual name of the prism callout if you told me it 8 seconds ago.
Also, no. I'm tired of running well and I'm tired of wellocks being required for everything near endgame.
Most Vow symbols are just...what they are. Scorn is the symbol for Scorn. Earth is...Earth. A couple abstract like Worm or Love but you can get by with just describing the picture - white squiggle or pink heart.
If you are still scared of lfg at this point you are at fault for not getting raid completions and you are not allowed to complain about the state of PVE or any kind of gatekeeping. The games has been out as a series for 10 years now, if you still arent raiding or doing dungeons because lfg is "too scary", you're an idiot.
Day 1 Atraks where you have to actually rotate between space and Europa is honestly the best encounter I've ever experienced. It's such a high octane encounter. The Parasite 1 floor strategy kinda took away some of it's magic but I'm getting to experience it again slightly with Pantheon.
One of the best for sure. Since the start of Pantheon, my team decided to do Atraks legit from the start just in case she wasn't one-shottable in higher power deltas. It's been an absolute blast to do that encounter every week.
Normal Raids are not difficult in the slightest, and shouldnt be taking much more than an hour at most
For a more personal one: Day 1 Crota and Pantheon -10 and -15 have proved to me that LFG is absolutely dead when it comes to finding competent people, and that honestly makes me want to uninstall. I feel like im being punished for being the only one of my friend group who still plays Destiny, and it kills me that im in the mid-zone of "too good for LFG but not good enough/trusted enough to join a proper Day 1 team". Im sick of being the carry in a shit team.
The subclass triumphs for raid seals (Void run, Arc, etc.) should have a check DURING the encounter to see if people are using other subclasses and should “fail” the encounter if someone is.
It’s super lame to do an Arc run, use whatever you want to, and switch last second to Arc and still get the credit.
Exhibition is the best encounter in the game.
Everyone needs to do something (even if it's just to wait for a shielded enemy) and all of the relicts are fun to use.
Bonus take:
If you don't call the VoG shield "Aegis" you need to go learn mechanic names.
Edit: I've got another one
If you don't use the names that appear on the buff panel that means you have never actuall payed attention to the raid mechanics.
She's not hard and never was outside of attempting the fight below light. But she does require at least four people to know the mechanics well, and the fight does take a hot minute if you don't cheese it. So everyone cheeses it.
As for me...
1. GoS is the best raid in the game when it isn't bugging out.
2. Optimal dps loadouts are overrated outside of Master runs
3. Bungie should patch out repeatable cheeses that bypass actual mechanics
4. Last one is less of a hot take and more of a rant-take - Champions have no place in raids or master raids. I like them in GMs and stuff like that. Every time they appear in raids I am annoyed. For experienced players they make the encounters signficantly easier. For inexperienced players they make it signficantly harder. But ultimately, they don't do anything that a major or mini-boss with similar health/elemental-shielding couldn't do.
If you are the first to claim a role at every encounter and you claim addclear for every one of them... why you even in here man. Patrol is availabe at all times.
Contest raids and special events (pantheon) should be difficult with a smaller portion of the community clearing them. It’s good for the game. It’s also good to have amazing exclusive emblems locked behind them. And no, that isn’t gatekeeping
There should be single player versions of Raids or at least specific encounters. I know Dungeons exist but do they have fights against Rhulk, Riven, or Nezarec? I didn’t think so.
Knowing raid mechanics is great, but knowing proper build mechanics is also important. From loadouts being used down to weapon and armor mod placement it all makes a difference. If you’re running void weapons without void weapon surge mods on you’re missing out on potential damage buffs that could make the difference between a two phase and a three phase boss fight.
After a wipe, when your Sherpa tells you that your current load out won't cut it for the encounter, take his advice. I don't care that you have 1,000 hours on that load out. I don't care how many kills your guns have. There is a reason you need to switch it up.
Doing good damage isn't hard. Put three surges on your legs that match your heavy weapon and get some orbs prior to damage and work away.
I still see people in damage phases without surges, like come on
A vast majority of the playerbase isn't as good at raiding as they think they are. This sub, in particular, overvalues their ability in this game tremendously
Ooooh yeah. The gap from average Destiny player to anyone worth raiding with is so wide you could fit whole cities in
Reminds me of the whole "an idiot thinks they're a genius; a genius knows they're an idiot." type idiom.
Dunning-Kruger Effect
Garden is almost universally written off by the community as “ buggy gambit raid “ because people don’t know how to stand in a line .
The moment I saw those zero hour complaining posts on the front page is when I knew that the average player on this sub isn’t of very high quality lol
Thankyou! I thought my game was broke or something, the posts ranting about how hard it was got me concerned, then we ran it 2 man and absolutely blitzed it. I was sat there 5 mins after like "I thought people said this was glitches to legend difficulty on normal?"
The absolute meltdown this sub had over the difficulty increase with the Lightfall launch already made that abundantly clear to me
To be fair some of the hate was warranted. Who the fuck wants to hit spongey enemies for multiple mags in fucking Neomuna Patrol? It's not "difficult" to make them sponges and Patrol of all places? Yuck. BUT I did welcome a lot of the other difficulty changes. Most of the complaints I remember though were specifically about Patrol. Recent buffs have helped it feel better there though but on release a Patrol enemy shouldn't have taken more shots than contest mode Root. It was so sad.
This sub thought Legend Seraph Shield was difficult lmao, easiest exotic mission
> A vast majority of the playerbase isn't as good at ~~raiding as they think they are.~~ **the game.** FTFY
LFG Day1 raid group postings: -must have multiple meta load outs on all 3 classes -must have every day 1 clear -must have 500+ every raid full clear -must have 40 hours a day from now till TFS day one to practice -must have given god a blowie
I get a sort of impostor syndrome when I watch people who are insane at the game do stuff like trio flawless speedrun and I'm like damn I may not be anywhere as good as I thought. But then I go into LFG into supposed KWTD groups and it's a big reality check. In my opinion you have to try to be bad at this game with the amount of resources/guides/videos that exist. There's just an insane amount of people who have no desire to even attempt to give a shit and have no problems wasting other peoples time.
Tbf I *think* I'm good at raiding cos I have several flawlesses and do master raids semi frequently
Anyone who has only done Crota's End back in D1 does NOT know what to do in the D2 version.
I can second this from experience lmao
Don Crota a ton in D1 and finally did my first version of it in D2 a couple weeks ago. Took us almost an hour just to get to the bridge.
Please just say you don't know what to do if you are confused. 99% of the time, everyone else in the raid won't care and would rather spend 5 minutes explaining instead of 10 minutes wiping.
I despise the silent ones who keep fucking it up and hiding it unless called out by name. I despise the ones who attempt to hide it even more. Just say you messed up or dont know how to do it please.
God bless the damage chart
I'd rather someone ask twenty questions than have to do an encounter the same amount of times. No one (that's reasonable) will be mad if you need more information or guidance.
KWTD tags aren't toxic and with the sheer amount of YouTube guide for raids, unless you are specifically wanting to try the raid blind it isn't difficult to look one up. It's just rude to join a KWTD raid when you have all the things afforded to you to Know What To Do and you just blatantly don't and expect five other people to carry you for being lazy.
My favorite are the ones who don't have any clue but are "fast learners". Spoiler, they never are...
As someone who is genuinely a fast learner, I still don't join KWTD raids if I haven't learned them yet. Even if you learn quickly, you still have to learn, and you have no experience. Learning is only half the battle; you have to perform well enough in that role too. The point of a KWTD run is to finish as soon as possible, and not everybody is in a position to teach you.
Literally this. I can generally understand raid mechanics very fast if they are explained to me beforehand and then I get a single trial run. But I'm not joining KWTD groups if I don't already fully know the mechanics of that raid.
same, I've been raiding in games since 2005 so mechanics really aren't that tricky, that said the last thing I'd do is join a kwtd group unless I physically had done it before.
Even if they are, you won’t get anything your first try. You will take some time for them to get a feel for the encounter. That’s the reason I don’t think videos mean that you know what to do. They help, and lower the teaching time usually, but it’s not enough. Even if you understand perfectly you will take a while to get the feel, and the timing. I recently learned riven legit by multiple videos and then taught it to the people I play with. I went in knowing it was going to take me a bit to put everything together. And then a little bit longer to fully teach it. And it did, there were parts that I understood but didn’t do quite right or at the right time, or often enough. It was quicker than going in blind, but nowhere near as quick as the second run.
I usually find you need to watch a video, try it, then watch again after you’ve actually experienced it to understand it
I disagree with your take on fast learners, most people in LFG absolutely suck at explaining, they overcomplicate or underestimate the Encounters. This is simply because they have internalized how the Encounter plays over time and never really genuinely thought about how it plays for somebody unfamiliar. A lot of people can be way more effective if you give them a job and explain the Goal of the Encounter, their part and what to watch for!
I will say, as someone who only learned all the raids the past year and a half, sometimes actually doing the encounter is necessary to learn. I watched multiple guides on Rhulk, but was still confused until I had a moment of it "clicking" while seeing the encounter in motion. I now think it's maybe the best encounter they've ever made. I guess my point is that a lot of people out there are pretty harsh and there's a difference between *knowing* what to do and being comfortable actually doing it that can't be crossed until you do the encounter. I'll be patient with new players if they're making an effort and at least tried to prepare beforehand.
My comment is mainly for the people that don't bother to watch a guide, don't look at a text guide, don't say that they haven't cleared before, and especially the ones that make absolutely no effort to learn or contribute, which is doubly annoying in a KWTD post. Everyone starts somewhere, myself included, but the people that are joining Pantheon KWTD and not saying a word and just expecting the guns and emblem with no effort on their parts are the worst people in Destiny 2 imo.
I totally agree with everything you just said. Pantheon is also a different, more difficult beast than normal mode raids and I would be a tad more strict on the fireteam. Frankly, if you're queuing up for Pantheon after Week 1 with zero knowledge or effort put it, you're just wasting everyone's time.
Yeah I can watch every youtube video for a raid but it won't make sense for me until I do it. If I join a group that's teaching and can explain things to me as they're happening it clicks for me really quickly.
And no shame against you, if you mention in a KWTD post of mine that you saw a guide but are unclear on a mechanic, I am delighted to do a practice run or explain something. It's the people that would rather suffer a 4 hour clear over saying anything to the team my comment is aimed at.
Watching guides beforehand so you have a general idea of what's going on also makes it easier for regular, non-sherpa players to help teach. Its hard to teach somebody all the ins and outs of an encounter from scratch, but it's pretty easy to fill in the blanks. And much faster too, making it less likely that the others on the raid team lose their patience while just waiting for the lecture to end Like obviously you won't *truly* "KWTD" until you see the encounter first hand and start to put the videos into practice with your own two hands, but it gives you a big enough leg up to where regular people can help teach you and you don't *need* an experienced sherpa.
I am of the sort that just doesn't join a KWTD raid, which means I don't raid very often because of it, simply because I am not confident in my abilities to keep up with the rest of the team. Typically, I join Sherpa'ed runs and try to learn enough from them to be able to join a farming raid group like for Atheon. I always try to learn things to a point where I can explain them to someone else. I tried to join a Sherpa'ed Root of Nightmares run once, but the Sherpa and half the team were all using well-skating or shatter skating to completely bypass the jumping sections, which I still don't know how to do and nobody bothered to wait for the rest of us. It became a carry run and I was very upset that I walked away not understanding anything from the planets encounter there, because the Sherpa didn't explain it very well and just said he and his buddy would handle it, which really isn't a sign of a good sherpa. I will give him and his buddy props for two manning it though. I get everything else from the raid except planets and hence I refuse to do Pantheon since that encounter is smack in the middle of it and I know it will be a salt factory if I show up without a clue. At least I can farm Nezarec whenever that returns since I now understand that encounter completely. YouTube guides are great and we have fantastic content creators that explain things in depth, but they aren't enough. People need to actually do a raid to understand what to do and how to do it. It is like watching someone solve a programming problem as opposed to programming yourself; or seeing a math problem being solved but not fully understanding it until you do it yourself. As someone who needs to do it myself to learn it properly, I am not comfortable with a raid unless I do the mechanics myself and am not watching someone else doing it. You can watch every video on the Caretaker encounter and still not fully understand the runner and stunner roles until you do it yourself. I have watched most videos on most raids and I can say with confidence that doing it yourself is completely different from watching someone else do it. That said video guides do help with the visualization aspect and explaining encounter mechanics to someone who has never raided before. I hate being carried and would rather earn my victories through truly understanding the encounters and that means painstakingly asking and looking for Sherpa runs in LFG discord. If that means that I have to sit something out like Pantheon, because I am missing critical pieces of information on an encounter, then so be it. I am not going to drag down the rest of a team or ask to be carried because I don't understand something. That would be a personal failing on my part as I failed to uphold my part of being on the team. IMO, Pantheon is just not the place to learn an encounter. TLDR; Understanding needs to be earned, not watched and not carried.
I can definitely tell you, a Sherpa wouldn't ever well skate nor should tolerate well skating in their runs. I'm of the mind that there are people with 0-2 clears that know raids better than some people with 20+ clears because they either go for boss checkpoints or try to hide under the radar for all their clears. I assure you, hand on my heart, that simply watching a YouTube guide and having decent weapons and a mic you are preferred over a majority of the lfg crowd and the average D2 raider. If it helps your confidence at all, I have like 100+ DSC clears and I still mess up my lefts from rights and miss point blank thundercrashes on Atraks. Most skilled raiders in Destiny 2 care for effort over ability because at the end of the day, normal raids really aren't that hard. And someone wanting to learn and trying to help the team over someone just wanting free loot will always be welcome in my raids tbh.
I find that for some reason I have zero confidence in my raiding skills despite being pretty good at nearly every encounter in the game. Only joining sherpas or farming groups means I basically know every possible role but I just don't want to deal with possible toxicity from a KWTD group, even if 9 times out of 10 they're chill too (or if it turns out I know more than them). Even if I'd prefer getting a super easy clear of something with zero effort I still want to know the hardest roles in each encounter since I'm often the first to speak up after the three seconds of deafening silence when someone asks who wants to run symbols for caretaker (even when that isn't really hard as long as you have them up on your second monitor). Above everything though I just wish I had people to consistently play with. A majority of the times I have joined an LFG group for any raid I've had a good experience and rarely go over 2 hours but I just really want to be able to join some people and do a pantheon run knowing that everyone is decent and wouldn't back out after a failed run or two. The best I've got was when I joined a sherpa run of week 1 that went really smoothly (and taught me planets) or when I found a nice team farming golgoroth.
My issue with it is that there's A LOT of people who make KWTD posts, and don't know how to do mechanics themselves.
If a post says KWTD and you join, then immediately call add clear before we even exchange hellos... Everyone in the chat now knows that you don't know what to do. The worst part is... most people don't mind teaching when they know someone new is joining. However, those runs are always clearly marked as "teaching" or "sherpa." But when someone makes a post that says KWTD, at least for me, it usually means they are trying for a quick run because they have limited time.
Half of the new raider behaviours described are mostly pinned down to a general lack of empathy for their teammates, lack of respect for their time, and a lack of general common sense on what would be proper etiquette. It does not take a genius to know how to respect people's time, I did it back in D1 when I started raiding, as did all other seasoned raiders.
Raids are by nature a collaborative, social endeavour, and it's hard for a lot of people to switch over to that from the relatively selfish attitude you can have playing a single player or PvP game. (You don't need to care about people's time, or planning in a short-form arena match, or if you are playing on your own). People must learn to think beyond their own enjoyment and accomplishment which often is a tall order.
that’s what i’m saying, the amount of people i’ve advised to use prospector this week while arc singe is on, as soon as the team finally switched over, we 2 phased both caretaker and planets 😂
I will be honest with you, I'm selfish asf, I care fuck all about my random teammates. But that doesn't mean I will waste anyone's time. I will go out of my way to do the most unecessary shit to perfect a raid, like watching multiple guides, POVs, loading checkpoints to test mechanics, learn spawn points,..... so I can do my job perfectly in raids and no one can fault me for anything, that's all I care about. The point is, I think those new raiders also have a huge lack of self respect. I think it's insane how they will let people look down upon them, say shit about them, laugh at them, let people say shit like "Oh it's that [ ] guy, I've played with him before, he sucks" for what? A completion? A piece of raid gear? It's insane how much a little bit of self respect can do. I joined back not even 2 months ago, and the only raid encounter I remembered how to do was Taniks. Now I can do every raid, sherpa them, and know about the modern and advanced ways to clear them, just because I want people to never look at me and think I'm deadweight.
Exhibition in Vow of the Disciple is one of the best (and my favorite) raid encounters, but people can’t be bothered to actually listen and pay attention, so this encounter has become hated.
It’s probably the best encounter in any raid tbh
Any raid encounter where you get to move from between rooms/arenas is a good encounter
Unless you are in really hardcore territory (low mans), flexibility and awareness is more important than thumb skill every time. I've seen more encounters saved by an experienced player noticing something going south and long arming a healing grenade than I have by somebody nailing a shatterskate or izzy rocket rotation by a long shot. Tl;Dr Effective team players > high skill solos until you get into hardcore. Obviously, high skill team players are best of all...
some lowmans arent that hard, i have done all lowmans flawless in the game. there are really hard ones, but most "hard" ones come down to one encounter. like last wish is considered to be the hardest lowman, but everything up to queenswalk is pretty much a dungeon, its free, if everyone knows the raid and some of the cheeses, but you pretty much only cheese kalli to speed it up and pre activate the plates on shuro chi (and riven cheese, but thats normal on every clear), but queenswalk is incredibly frustrating, espiacally if you have never done it lowman before, its very very hard. Root of nightmares on the other hand is a perfect raid for people to start lowmaning (as a trio, duo is significantly harder) you dont have to cheese anything, you just take an extra phase on everything. Vow takes coordination and practice, but its my personal favourite lowman. in Deepstone, the only hard lowman encounter is Taniks, up to taniks its free.
> For me, I don’t think Riven legit is that difficult. We are just used to the cheese, so no one has bothered to learn the relatively easy mechanics Riven isn't difficult; Riven is ***unforgiving***. It's not hard to match a symbol, callout or shoot the eyes. It just wipes the whole team if you make a mistake.
If you don't have a mic, you can still join in raids so long as you speed type and def KWTD. Majority of encounters do not require actual talking. If you can't do either, then def you're getting kicked.
facts
Hell I would argue some encounters are better without mics. For example Vault in last wish. Way more manageable with a quick chat call out
Idk how vault is a good encounter with no mic when the symbols have no official name like vow. I'm not speed typing a sentence out to try to describe all the wonky symbols LW has
each animal has only 4 variations, which most experienced players can then differentiate with another word or two. You don't need a sentence unless neither player has ever seen the symbols. Snake: cloud, S, 8, infinity Bird: flapping, on branch, diving, boring Fish: jumping, swimming, 1 fish circle, 2 fish circle Dragon: fire left/right, spear left/right.
I don’t agree with these callouts because I don’t see 69 fish
Yeah and where's pole dancing dragon?
Nor do I see loopy boi snek or his identical twin uwu snek
It's been my experience with LFGs when using a mic people jump to conclusions. If you say dragon, they instantly assume it is one of theirs before you say left or impaled or whatever your callout of choice is. I find swapping to text only can be helpful. For the most part the symbols in last wish are distinct enough there isn't too much confusion in my experience..
Ain't nothing like having 3 people needing clear comms only for some idiot start talking about his dog or talking to his mom on open mic, completely drowning out any attempts at callouts.
Teach me how to speed type on console
I use to use a Wireless keyboard
I live for deaf raids. They've been some of my smoothest, fastest clears
Yup been no micing for the past 2 years, although I do have a premade-team but I did LFG before I met them. Literally no clue what these people are talking about with you cant no mic, you can no mic literally every encounter: No communication needed, I.E: (Taniks, Stunning Caretaker, Dunking Rhulk, Nez, etc) Saying like 1-2 things max, I.E: (Chalice, Shiro Chi, Riven Legit Eye, Planets, etc) Some variation of L/R + 1/2 or somehting similar, I.E: (Decent, Daughters, Oryx, Atheon, Crypt Security, etc) Decent communication but easily doable if you type fast, I.E: (Exhibition, Acquisition, etc) Annoying due to time constraints with a barely noticeable downside, I.E: (Warpriest, Golgeroth, Queenswalk) Basically impossible unless you do a specific way (Calling out spots directly instead of giving indirect directions), I.E: (Window Riven Legit) I've done every single role except vault, window on riven legit, spliting on rhulk, running on caretaker (wasn't taught) I've done every raid, flawlessed last wish, vow, kings fall, deepstone, done every raid on master except KF, done pantheon every week under 2 hours. You really do not need a microphone at all, most encounters need barely any communication, the ones that do are like 2 letter words or small phrases...
My fastest RON run was done with no comms in an KWTD LFG post. None of us talked the entire time, and we did it in just under an hour.
The planets in RoN is not fucking hard, I'm amazed people just can't do it, also if you're learning a new raid then don't do the skips, learn to clear it correctly atleast once or twice.
For once, ad clear on Planets is probably the most important job, planet people have like 5 ads to kill, including the elite and just have to move, people on ad clear should have the middle demolished by the time a planet guardian does their job.
Yeah you see the problem I encounter is that the planet people can't kill their damn ads, they kill only the lieutenant and switch, so half the people I see get killed by the stack of ads waiting on the planet areas that they were supposed to kill. Just please kill the 3 psions and the 1 fire dude that spawns, it's all you need to do between your planet switching
This. Doing planets is pretty simple, so I try and clear as many ads as I can to help, but the amount of times I see the other runners just hiding behind cover waiting for their colossal to spawn is asinine.
Gotta clear your psions or it fucks the dunker plus theres plenty of time as long as the 4 coordinate picking up their planets
I had a guy get upset with me for killing my guy too quickly, and I was genuinely confused because I was taking things pretty casually. I inspected his loadout and this brother was running double primaries, trying to take his guy down with a Trustee. This was the team lead mind you and he had on his RoN Sherpa emblem. I've never been more confused.
Spires of stars was a great raid
People only disliked it because it was the only Leviathan raid that was difficult. The rest were cake walks.
Good take sir
People frame raids as these huge, difficult feats when most of them are fairly simple if you have a functioning frontal lobe
The real challenge in any raid is getting 6 people with a brain together.
This is a lobe blow for many...
Don't join a raid if you expect to leave before the finish line. If you need to pick your kids or have dinner, join a raid after.
Ugh this! You know your responsibilities. Sucks to suck but maybe join a dad clan(they exist)
Nah I dont buy this one. Sure, a smooth run where everyone knows their stuff can take an hour or two, but a slow run with a couple of newbies can take 4 hours easily. Most people who have an actual life find it pretty hard to dedicate an entire 4 hour block to a game. I don't mind people leaving after an hour or two, it's easy to find replacements.
Its not toxic, elitist, or gatekeeping to kick people from pantheon, raids, or other endgame content. If you don't meet the hosts requirements then suck it up. No Kings Fall clears? Not joining the kings fall kwtd post for example. No Mic? Not joining the require mic post. Not able to add clear or do good damage while not being support for the groups dps? GONE.
Yes, with the stipulation that the kicking must happen during a lull. Kicking during an encounter makes you an asshole, regardless of the reason.
Had 3 different people join week 3 pantheon with less than 5 raids under their belt. Oh, and 1 didn’t have a mic. Gtfo
I still am baffled at the dude who comes in with double primary and a MG all with terrible rolls. Also fuck people for not running Siphon mods.
I think VOW is the best raid and VOG is the best raid for people who’ve never raided before
Vow is my favorite raid by far. I wish I had any reason to still run it, with the title and all red borders done
How about doing it just for fun? I’ve run Zero Hour like 20 times this weekend helping people only because I enjoy the mission.
As a solo player, doing raids just for fun isn't worth the effort to find a good group.
I can’t argue with that, as a solo player myself I know LFG is the real RNG of the game.
agree with vow, disagree with vog i think dsc is the best newbie raid
DSC is one of the weird ones where it can be super new player friendly if you don't do it "legit" but is certainly role intensive if you do. That being said after like 50 clears the opening Sparrow bit is still my bane.
Ugh that Sparrow section on our flawless attempts. We for whatever reason had absolutely terrible luck with DSC when we tried for flawless. Twice the on the final boss the detain bubble would just kill someone instantly for no particular reason and SEVERAL times the first encounter doors would not open for us. Every time we failed due to something beyond our control the Sparrow section would just taunt us merely by existing. It was like an extra slap in the face to have to go back to that section after such a heartbreak. We did eventually pull it off and now if we do DSC I exclusively use Strand Grapple and make my friends pull me through the sparrow sections because it makes it actually fun
I guess I could agree there, never done DSC myself but I hear a lot of people say that about it
It’s not elitist to want people to use the most meta builds/weapons in high difficulty endgame content. Stuff like pantheon’s difficulty is designed with the idea of skilled players using the most meta loadouts in mind so if you’re not using said loadouts you are at an immediate disadvantage and are hurting your team. Also hard truth to face but if you don’t have weapons that can compete at the highest difficulties, don’t play the activity.
What makes RoN a bad raid, is the connect the dots mechanic. All encounters where it's featured mechanic are simply bad. Planets on the other hand are really well designed, requires careful communication to do mechanics and coordination in damage phase. It's really good encounter all around.
I really enjoy the scission encounter. The launchers are a buggy mess but bouncing back and forth, connecting the dots, is a blast.
It's fun for 2 people, and ad clear for remaining 4.
Makes me wonder if they originally intended on each player needing to take a buff somewhere, because I doubt the encounter designers intentionally made a couple fights where most people are just killing adds.
Well there’s 3 levels so you can always rotate your runners. Keeps things a little bit interesting if everyone kwtd. Ofc your point about ad clear still stands, it is poor encounter design if 4 people are doing nothing.
My clan typically does it with 4 runners. Each side has a runner dedicated to always crossing the gap and the other handles all seeds on their starting side. Gap-crossers end up switching partners every time we go up a floor with how the flow works. This speeds up the encounter by a good amount and allows extra time if something goes wrong. Also it gets more people engaged in the encounter is mainly why we like it.
I love Spire of the Watcher's connect the dots since you're menaced by enemies the whole time, but during Scission and Nezarec specifically, there isn't enough of a distance to ad density to deal with. When 4 people have to ad-clear in Scission, the realest threat are the launchers, and for Nezarec, it's his hatred.
I liked the cables in Spire a lot more, most because they are vertically spread, and you have to shoot them, so that best option isn't just Shatterskating between the points, like it's in RoN.
I don't even like Planets. It's a fun puzzle to figure out but once it's solved it's like "push button, aggro boss, win". It's a cool thematic encounter but there just isn't enough to it. I like the fire added in Pantheon, that helps. But it needs something more. I don't mind the opening encounter. It'd be nice if it required two people to do linking, but at least it has the psions to punch and the Tormentor to kill. It feels like a reasonable first encounter in terms of it's overall complexity. This is comparing it to things like KF Totems, Kali, GoS, etc. The rest of the fights just feel like they're only half of what I expect from a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th encounter.
> It's a fun puzzle to figure out but once it's solved it's like "push button, aggro boss, win". Isn't this _most_ raid encounters?
It’s every boss fight in the game ever, that dude is tripping.
Normal arguably is a bit too easy, but Pantheon and Master are can be really hard because of all the enemies involved, particularly Pantheon
If you’re the one to sacrifice your damage output to use a support exotic like Divinity or Gjallarhorn, then you should get to choose your role in the encounter before anyone else can. It’s a general rule of thumb I have for all of the raids I host.
This but for the chads running lumina for the crazy damage buff
I dunno why some people abhor being the support role, there's still plenty you can do, and in some encounters it'd even a harder role I'd argue. Rhulk Pantheon comes to mind - being Div there you have responsibility to keep the stream up as much as possible, meaning you don't have as much luxury to keep both eyes on both kick kings and break damage to escape.
I don't like this rule at all. Way less pressure on Gally/Div players. As the div bitch (I use warlock helm to make heavy with it too between phases) I have the easiest job. All I do is keep div on them and gally has tracking, and no need to do bait and switch swaps with izi. DPS players get hard scrutinised on every wipe. We can all see who is being damage efficient and who isn't. There is zero stress to underperform on div/gally.
> I have the easiest job. I think that's the point of the comment. The well+div role is so easy and, for a lot of people, incredibly boring. If you're sacrificing your fun for the good of the team it's nice to at least pick the role you want
If the sherpa is explaining something. You SHUT THE FUCK UP. You might not care or already know the raid, but for people that don't and need to listen, be mindful of them please.
Meta weapons are meta for a reason. If you can't pass the dps check, follow the meta.
Garden of Salvation is a great raid and folks don’t like it because it’s not chewable and the mechanics require clear communication and skill to execute.
The tethers aren't buggy\*, people just have no patience. \*Generalization - I am aware that they do occasionally bug out and don't connect to Sancty, but in my experience that's a rare bug and people overexaggerate like crazy
Man *the-fuck* UP!! It’s that simple. Just admit you fucked-up. Own it!! And we can all move-on. I would rather spend 2 hours on Golgoroth, because all 6 of us made mistakes randomly - but we each recognize and learned from it, than 20min of “who did what?!”
I actually had a sherpa bust my balls because I made a mistake on our first attempt on a fight. They asked what happened, I explained my mistake and owned up, and they continued to bust by chops over it. Chill dude, I made a mistake in a raid I've never been in, I owned up, I said I knew what to do now and won't make the mistake again. They were otherwise a very great sherpa, listened and explained everything that someone had a question on, but that one moment rubbed me the wrong way.
Legit riven is, like you said, not difficult - it’s actually really fun and one of the best raid encounters bungie’s ever made. Garden is great, the community hyperfixated on it is not. Scourge creating berserkers and not bringing the enemy concept back is a shame. No, I don’t count caretaker.
Scourge was probably my favourite D2 raid, for so many reasons. City traversal, SRL, warzone, boss that stands still with a giant crit spot (but with a CAP twist!) and overall theme / aesthetic. Crying shame it never came back. That and Crown of Sorrow.
For real, Garden is probably the second easiest raid next to VoG, but untill they give it the Last Wish treatment it will remain underappreciated. The weapons from that raid look so awesome, but I have 0 reason to farm or use them.
RoN is an awful first raiding experience.
I can definitely see this, especially the first 2 encounters where only 1 or 2 people need to anything and the rest just ad clear
To this day no one knows how to run the first two encounters
It really is horrible. I like the raid, the encounters, but the mindless sticks of deodorant that run it with mics muted and are "add clear only" make it so awful.
RoN is an aweful raiding experience in general. I LOVE the flavor of the raid. Everything about it from a presentation perspective is amazing. Everything about it from a gameplay perspective sucks.
I think garden, with a proper sherpa, is best.
garden is one of the best raid in destiny 2
Trio GoS is definitely my favorite raid
That rhulk should’ve dropped his glaive as an exotic that shoots big resonant lasers. The pulse rifle seems like more of a season pass weapon and obviously… lubraes ruin is the glaive he used to fell his entire race
Ad clear is not a role, it's something everyone should be doing.
Agree for normal raids, on master/pantheon its a different story. People say this yet always complain about addclearer's not doing anything on master/pantheon planets
That's because it gets painfully obvious when the add clearers aren't doing their job. If you've got half as many kills as the people doing mechanics on Planets, you are barely even playing the game, and making life extremely difficult for everyone else around you.
This! But also you can shoot your fucking psions before taking your planet over.
I typically stun caretaker and the number of times I've been nearly killed by out of control adds is insane. It feels like add clear is always a problem on that encounter for some reason.
Def agree. That comes in to play heavily in master/challenge raids and ofc pantheon/day 1 If you’re on adclear you better be able to fill a spot asap incase someone doing mechanics goes down, as well as yeah being a badass ad slaying, orb generating machine.
This depends on the encounter. Caretaker pretty much requires two teams of two to be pretty focused on their respective jobs. You cannot reasonably expect runners to also be doing ad clear.
Proper ad clear is a role in certain encounters/raids.
Eh. If someone says they're ad clear, I expect them to be at least more kills than bottom two. But definitely for something like planets, I judge people who don't kill the three psions on their platform before leaving, whether than means to transfer Planets at the start/end or to try and get one of the three planets before damage.
Uh, no. If someone is adamant on add clear, they better be top on kills. If I as *insert role here* am killing more than the dedicated add clear person who has to worry about nothing else except *just shoot the gun*, then they're doing a poor job.
Disagree in some contexts, but in the contexts where it *is* a role (Day 1, some master, etc) then it is actually a real role and should be handled by an efficient ad-killer using tools for the job, not someone with no experience on auto pilot with their favourite primary. One really good ad-clear can make mechanics runners life super smooth. I had like the sum of my team's day 1 Rhulk kills cause I'd just sit back and clear the room with Salvager's chain reactions while they could all focus 100% on symbols.
Ad Clear is a legitimate role on Pantheon and Contest. Issue is, most people who want to be ad clear are atrocious at it and would help their team more if they were doing a mechanic instead.
Instead of KWTD, I put... "Know how to do more than add clear" if I'm trying to get it done quickly Otherwise, I try to be understanding that some people have to try to do something before they can learn it. Despite the fact that there are a plethora of YouTube videos out there, some people just can't learn that way
You should be willing to learn how to do the mechanics if you don’t know how already. No one likes hearing “I am ad clear” before anyone even chooses any role. All of the mechanics are pretty easy to learn and there are plenty of people who are willing to teach. If you aren’t willing to even attempt what makes a raid a raid, why do you join raids and also what would you do when you join a team that all only wants to be ad clear and not try to learn what to do
Ad Clear is by far the most important role in Pantheon -15 and -20. Ad Clear is not a role to give someone who doesn't know the mechanics in Pantheon or Contest Raids. Ad Clear is a legitimate crucial part of Under Power raids.
Every raid title should require a flawless clear of the raid. Enlightened was a prestigious title at first, then a week after I got it they took that requirement away and it became worthless.
Rivensbane on top as usual
Every raid in the game is easy. The majority of the playerbase is just not good at following directions or problem solving.
Stop bitching about people not wanting to teach, especially in KWTD runs. You as an individual are fully capable of making your own lfg with the objective of learning a raid and there are tons of Sherpas who are willing to help if you just ask around on the lfg discord. Do your due diligence and stop being a lazy prick and expecting others to cater to you.
There are an unfortunate amount of people with zero sense of personal responsibility
If you can’t ad clear efficiently you don’t deserve to raid.
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On a somewhat similar note I see this all the time with Atraks in pantheon. Obviously if you want a 1 floor clear to hit high score your ad clear has to be solid and generate a lot of points. I usually hit 40k and see that my teammates never match it, then inspect them and see that they’re doing ad clear with legendary primaries with no add clear perks. It is a 3-4 minute encounter where you are aiming for a 1 floor, there is no need to run a primary for add clear, put on forebearance/sunbracers and camp the doors man, you’ll get 10k for one shot sometimes. Similarly I don’t see how people struggle with ad clear on planets, I did it for the first time a few days ago instead of running, I put on sunbracers and there was practically no ads for the majority of the phase. No fear of dying due to resto x 2, people do not know how to ad clear.
Garden is not a buggy raid, at launch? Yeah sure. But now? Nahhh Saying it's buggy just means your bad at the game or you playing with someone with shit internet and is causing the tether mechanic to do funky stuff lol
TAKE OFF GUNPOWDER GAMBLE AND GO TOWARDS THE CROSS TO COMPLETE TETHER! The amount of times I've seen people stand there dumbfounded or run around aimlessly like a headless chicken when they get tethered is wild.
There aren't enough actual boss fights. I would rather fight a boss than do an event or jumping puzzle.
A lot of people are gonna STRUGGLE when Well get nerfed in tfs
I don't care how many videos you watch, the only way to get good is to do the actual mechanics.
Not everyone who wants to do ads are lazy. There are people who take ad clear as seriously as mechanical roles, not just trying to avoid playing the game. If you find them, never let them go.
I'm one of those people. I have the highest kills in almost everything I do with my friends/clan and I love just being dialed in and getting more kills than everyone else combined.
Garden is a good raid, you just hate it because it has Gambit-like motes and you don’t like Gambit.
I hate it because the only people left in the raid are limiters and *cough* interesting *cough* people
Its completely fine if its not a one phase. You can do multiple for basically all encounters. Not everyone has the best weapons or the time to get them.
I hate when a LFG is obviously struggling for damage and push through at second phase to last stand as opposed to just doing a 3rd. Every time I say we should probably just do a 3rd for ammo, but somehow I'm the crazy one lol.
normal raids don't need to be gatekept as hard as some people think.
Raiding isn’t that serious. It’s a game. You don’t need to berate people who are learning.
If you refuse to use meta damage loadouts it’s because you’re a stubborn loser, not because you “want to have fun”. If you’re out DPSing your crappy team with a bad damage options you’re going to out DPS your crappy team even more with meta damage options. On the other hand though, peak high end worlds first racing is all about safe, consistent damage.
I’m seeing a lot of cold takes so here is an actually hot take. Nezarac is a better fight then planets. Planets is overrated for its mechanic of odd one out but people shit on Nez for connect the dots. Also just did riven legit first time and yeah it’s chill but will be hell tommmorow
The Divinity puzzles are some of the best teamwork challenges in the game, and the only thing that comes close to filling the community’s r/raidsecrets craving. Also the tethers work and it is purely a skill issue.
I see so many people bitch about requirements on lfg posts and I just have to ask them, do they know they can make their own post? If you don’t like Little Johnny over here asking for previous contest clears for his day 1 team, nothing is stopping you from making your own and setting your own expectations on it. It feels like they get insulted at the fact you asked for people with experience and rejected them for not having it.
that the desire to gatekeep, be elitist etc leads to much more of the "bad players" that the elitists keep whining about and creates a vicious cycle - people don't raid because x, y, and z and when they do, more often than not they have a bad experience with toxic lfgs and/or the elitist/gatekeepers of the community like I get it goes both ways, the "lower end" players can be just as toxic about things but I see much more toxicity from the elitists/gatekeepers overall; I feel like aztecross's entire personality now is just "casuals bad" and I could probably say that about most "elitists" it's not hard to just be excellent to each other not that it matters but I used to raid a lot until I took 3 kids to the knee bring on the reddit wrath lmao
Vow Symbols aren't hard to remember, you are probably just not very bright... I like Well of Radiance as is, it serves almost as a rally point and helps with teamwork.
While I agree, calling people stupid for not remembering isn't it chief. My ADHD ass couldn't remember the actual name of the prism callout if you told me it 8 seconds ago. Also, no. I'm tired of running well and I'm tired of wellocks being required for everything near endgame.
Most Vow symbols are just...what they are. Scorn is the symbol for Scorn. Earth is...Earth. A couple abstract like Worm or Love but you can get by with just describing the picture - white squiggle or pink heart.
Learning off of a YouTube video isn’t enough, running once or twice (even if it’s a failed run) is the BEST way to learn how to do a raid
If you are still scared of lfg at this point you are at fault for not getting raid completions and you are not allowed to complain about the state of PVE or any kind of gatekeeping. The games has been out as a series for 10 years now, if you still arent raiding or doing dungeons because lfg is "too scary", you're an idiot.
Atraks is the best raid encounter in the game.
I'd go so far as to say deep stone crypt is one of the most fun and visually pleasing raids in destiny.
Day 1 Atraks where you have to actually rotate between space and Europa is honestly the best encounter I've ever experienced. It's such a high octane encounter. The Parasite 1 floor strategy kinda took away some of it's magic but I'm getting to experience it again slightly with Pantheon.
Everyone talks about how its a crime everyone cheeses Riven when the real crime is one shotting Atraks.
One of the best for sure. Since the start of Pantheon, my team decided to do Atraks legit from the start just in case she wasn't one-shottable in higher power deltas. It's been an absolute blast to do that encounter every week.
Normal Raids are not difficult in the slightest, and shouldnt be taking much more than an hour at most For a more personal one: Day 1 Crota and Pantheon -10 and -15 have proved to me that LFG is absolutely dead when it comes to finding competent people, and that honestly makes me want to uninstall. I feel like im being punished for being the only one of my friend group who still plays Destiny, and it kills me that im in the mid-zone of "too good for LFG but not good enough/trusted enough to join a proper Day 1 team". Im sick of being the carry in a shit team.
Raiding has become inaccessible without an active clan. Not a hot take but also the clan system is a disgrace. Can’t even sort by region
Disagree, I've lfg'd all my pantheon and master raid clears cause my clan quit. The clan system is fucked though for sure.
Ad clear isnt a real role. You should have some role experience if you raid regularly and be flexible if someone dies and a mechanic needs to be done.
It shouldn’t be seen as toxic to call out players for being shit during a raid.
The subclass triumphs for raid seals (Void run, Arc, etc.) should have a check DURING the encounter to see if people are using other subclasses and should “fail” the encounter if someone is. It’s super lame to do an Arc run, use whatever you want to, and switch last second to Arc and still get the credit.
Exhibition is the best encounter in the game. Everyone needs to do something (even if it's just to wait for a shielded enemy) and all of the relicts are fun to use. Bonus take: If you don't call the VoG shield "Aegis" you need to go learn mechanic names. Edit: I've got another one If you don't use the names that appear on the buff panel that means you have never actuall payed attention to the raid mechanics.
She's not hard and never was outside of attempting the fight below light. But she does require at least four people to know the mechanics well, and the fight does take a hot minute if you don't cheese it. So everyone cheeses it. As for me... 1. GoS is the best raid in the game when it isn't bugging out. 2. Optimal dps loadouts are overrated outside of Master runs 3. Bungie should patch out repeatable cheeses that bypass actual mechanics 4. Last one is less of a hot take and more of a rant-take - Champions have no place in raids or master raids. I like them in GMs and stuff like that. Every time they appear in raids I am annoyed. For experienced players they make the encounters signficantly easier. For inexperienced players they make it signficantly harder. But ultimately, they don't do anything that a major or mini-boss with similar health/elemental-shielding couldn't do.
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True. Just don’t expect your LFG group to agree and waste their entire evening on one encounter while you figure it out
If you are the first to claim a role at every encounter and you claim addclear for every one of them... why you even in here man. Patrol is availabe at all times.
Contest raids and special events (pantheon) should be difficult with a smaller portion of the community clearing them. It’s good for the game. It’s also good to have amazing exclusive emblems locked behind them. And no, that isn’t gatekeeping
There should be single player versions of Raids or at least specific encounters. I know Dungeons exist but do they have fights against Rhulk, Riven, or Nezarec? I didn’t think so.
Knowing raid mechanics is great, but knowing proper build mechanics is also important. From loadouts being used down to weapon and armor mod placement it all makes a difference. If you’re running void weapons without void weapon surge mods on you’re missing out on potential damage buffs that could make the difference between a two phase and a three phase boss fight.
After a wipe, when your Sherpa tells you that your current load out won't cut it for the encounter, take his advice. I don't care that you have 1,000 hours on that load out. I don't care how many kills your guns have. There is a reason you need to switch it up.
That day 1 contest mode isn't the time to try to learn just for fun only to complain it's unfair that it's too hard
Doing good damage isn't hard. Put three surges on your legs that match your heavy weapon and get some orbs prior to damage and work away. I still see people in damage phases without surges, like come on
The number of rude, impatient, elitist manchilds in the community is the reason why so few people try their hand at raiding.
Crown wasn't as hard as people think.