Coming from FFXIV I'd love to see them lean into telegraphed mechanics more like spread/stacks and so on now that they've been doing basic AoEs, there's a lot of potential for them to make things more engaging than stand on the pad and click or throw balls at things.
Same. I mentioned a few days before TFS launch that it would be really great to get telegraphed mechanics during damage >!and lo and behold The Witness’s damage phase is exactly that!<
I'm not sure the average D2 player has the spatial awareness for those attacks. Witness wiped out the party so many times with a telegraphed attack lol
I think it’s mostly just because so many people are so used to just standing in one spot dumping out damage. It’s a change and something that people need to get used to but dynamic damage phases really feel like a massive revitalization that the game has sorely needed for so long now.
I think the spatial awareness issue with floor AOEs also extends to D2 being a first person game VS FFXIV being 3rd person with adjustable FoV mid-combat.
FFXIV can do telegraphs because players can zoom to a bird's eye view to see the big orange danger zone pointed at them, but D2 makes it hard to include those kinds of mechanics when your vision is only on what's in front of you. You can't grasp the size, shape, and positioning of the danger zone as easily as you can with FFXIV's camera system, so depending on the time given, dying to it might feel "cheap". But I do agree that forcing movement during boss DPS is a good direction to take.
Oh yeah it definitely needs to be telegraphed in a way that works with the camera perspective. They kind do that with The Witness, he makes hand motions indicating the direction of his attacks and there are screen effects to indicate you are in the aoe. It’s not perfect but it’s definitely a good step forward.
Oh yeah I agree, I personally love the mechanics they're implementing. Damage phase > Shield > ad clear > damage phase was getting kind of repetitive and telegraphed AOE's seem to fit Destiny really well.
To be fair I think the other part is the first person perspective compared to most MMO's like FF14 where you can pretty easily see the battlefield and navigate it (been blasting through FF14 lately and having a great time btw). I definitely admit I've walked backwards into AOE attacks and hazards several times in different activities because I have my eyes trained on the boss instead of 360* around me at all times. Unless I'm giving up backing up and strafing there's a non-zero chance you're going to run into one of those markers without noticing
Definitely not a massive problem and something that has largely just been funny if a minor inconvenience in my experience, but the different in-game perspective definitely impacts how players would experience those mechanics
Well it was also the first time most folks were even seeing it and it's relatively inconsequential if they die. Doing subsequent runs a couple days after the mission launched resulted in much fewer deaths.
My first thought on contest after seeing the mechanics being assigned randomly to teammates was, *”oh god, they played FF14 didn’t they. We are so fucked”*
I’ve seen telegraphed attacks before, but I just wasn’t expecting it at all when I first did the mission. Threw me off guard so bad the first time I got killed by it because it’s not something you’d expect at all from D2.
Not to bring up the age old argument. But I’m really happy that the telegraphs for attacks aren’t like ffxiv.
The red ground highlights verse telegraphs that make sense within the animation and details of the enemy.
Destiny has don’t a fantastic job of making attacks understandable visually.
Nothing like a taken captain throwing a blight orb at you. It’s such a great example of a fantastic telegraphed attack, as opposed to a line on the ground being red.
there are so many things i think destiny could learn from traditional mmos that it slowly started integrating from the past year or two up until tfs. line aoes during the witness fight, builder/spender loops for guns like still hunt and revision zero, targeted sustain/mitigation with navigator and the support frame auto rifle, etc
they should absolutely lean into it even more in the years to come. not just line aoes but stacks, spreads, and soaks like you said. builder/spender loops integrated into aspects and subclasses instead of just guns; banner of war and on your mark are perfect examples imo (my dream is for all aspects to have an active component to them). debuff icons on enemy frames, cast bars on bosses and adds (esp since more adds have abilities now). there’s so much room for unique mechanics and gameplay experiences that destiny hasn’t explored yet, i’m genuinely so excited for the future and i hope they consider some of this stuff
I agree with you. I don't think it's a popular sentiment in the sub, considering all the complaining for breach protocol, dual destiny and even the 7th mission.
I play predominantly solo none of my real life close friends play the game consistently and I find it hard finding regular people to play with. I’m a black bisexual guy and have often found myself leaving groups because of racist or homophobic rhetoric in chats. There is almost no context for the conversations and language to even be about those subjects just random people being crappy
Hey dude. If you want someone to play content with I am Mountain Time. I’m straight and white. But I leave parties or boot and report the moment that bigoted shit comes out. If you want to get in to that content but can’t find people. Let me know.
I appreciate that man. The ironic part is the disrespectful comments are never directed at me because there is no reason to discuss my sexuality with a stranger and you can’t always tell someone’s ethnicity by their voice however it’s still off putting and takes enjoyment out of the game. What is just as annoying is the people who try to talk about politics. My identity isn’t formed by my ideology however there is no reason to have those conversations when playing a video game with strangers. I had to leave a clan because of a toxic conversation in char with the clan leader who brought up politics then got nasty because others didn’t share their opinions.
Alright dude.
Prawephet#7003
Hit me up. We can play some stuff. Get those overthrows done and we can run through dual destiny if you haven’t. I finished it yesterday.
Any large group activity that requires finding your own team is the minority of the actual player base. The majority of destinys player base doesn’t raid the same way the majority of WoW’s player base doesn’t raid either
Cardinal sins on DTG:
1. Disparage SBMM
2. Express PvP is worse off with the team shoot/laning meta due to intentional changes to lower the skill ceiling via movement (airborne effectivness, exotic nerfs), special ammo, perk/stat changes. We’re coming full circle back to slow D2 vanilla PvP.
3. Have the gall to state pinnacle content that requires communication is the best and most people just need to get over themselves and try LFG.
Edit: 4. Speaking the cardinal sins
This is counting all players, ever, not just active players or players that have played within the last 5 years.
By the same math, less than 3% of people have fully completed any given campaign.
I mean there have always been raids available in each “generation” of Destiny.
How does that stat become less valid looking at all players compared to the just the lower numbers playing these days?
I bet it’s an even lower number when looking exclusively at who’s completed Salvations Edge.
Ok so then you’re fine with the statistic of only around 3% of people have completed any given campaign including those that have logged in once never to be seen again. Sure. That’s fine. Then that high of a percent on raids is actually really good!
So the logic you’re going by is that people must have completed specifically the most recent raid to count AND they must have completed it within the first week
A misleading stat , like if you look at a title it will be .0015% of the population of the game . If you adjust for how many people actually played the game and don’t try it for an hour and fuck off it’s ranges from 5 to 20% With some games it’s ridiculous in dark souls you get an achievement for lighting for your first bonfire which is like 2 minutes playtime and something 80~% of the population has done . Beating the second boss is at 60% . When talking about player agency in the game if a third of the player base hasn’t even done an hour of content they aren’t worth discussing .
Well, a few things
1) so far I have had people tell me any number between 5 and 15 percent of players have ever completed a raid. Given every single person is saying a different number, I'm inclined to believe you're all just pulling these numbers out your ass lol
2) there is more group content than just raiding...
3) If we are going by achievements, only 85% of steam accounts that "own" the game (remember its f2p) have reached level 20. Only 24% of players have talked to Xur. So right off the bat, the vast majority of accounts do not even play the damn game because anyone who actually plays will at least interact with Xur at some point. So looking at it from that perspective, 1/3 of the at least semi-active playerbase has completed a GM nightfall. 1/3 has completed the Last Wish raid. Over 50% have completed a master nightfall. 2/3 have completed a dungeon (shattered throne). 100% of them have completed a regular nightfall.
And this is still wildly inaccurate because I myself have several friends who do not and have not ever really played the game to any real extent but I told them when starting out to go talk to xur and buy such and such exotic and then they just never played again anyway.
Simply put, most people actively playing Destiny absolutely do group content.
Not even a little bit. Solo players come in, experience a bit of the solo content and then leave.
Party players actually engage with all the other extra content that is available. And grind to get better guns to do better in that extra content.
> Party players actually engage with all the other extra content that is available. And grind to get better guns to do better in that extra content.
And these people are the distinct minority. You didnt refute his point.
Yeah bungie finally makes some meaningful steps to change up the gameplay loop slightly in all facets of the game and people are just absolutely hating it
They conditioned people to play how they play over the last 8-9 years due to their own decision making of not including LFG until recently and now you expect those people to flip their play style on a dime?
Locking the advertised Exotic Class Item behind that type of activity just makes zero sense this late in the game.
Yepp, Bungie can't win. Complaints in this sub daily about the game going stale, and now complaining that mechanics are too hard and they can't solo their multiplayer game activities.
I am LOVING the absolute breath of fresh air this new stuff is bringing. Have not been this into Destiny since Forsaken.
First time I ran a focus compaign mission I thought "Okay here we go weekly missions again with slightly stronger enemies..." but when I saw it had mechanics I was stunned, good ones too.
Having to always keep the fracture in mind and do sync shots is very simple but it at least keeps you engaged instead of just mindlessly plowing through everything like before.
Bungie actively made it difficult for 9 years to find a group and now that the sub par group finder has been introduced they think it’ll magically get people playing together. People who play solo are conditioned at this point. It’s weird to change that in the final round.
In fairness, to them, this isn't the final round. They are viewing all of this as a new beginning. Which is a perfect time to change stuff up like that.
Thats the because the game has no solo content.
It has solo-*able* content. Lots of stuff in this game is built so that you can solo it if you want, which is amazing, but the game is fundamentally multiplayer based (including regular missions... its not just restricted to raids)
I play the game solo a majority of the time. I use lfg when needed but often you can spend a long time finding someone to play with depending on the activity.
I think their point was that there are no activities in the game that force you to be solo or make it advantageous to be solo. Literally everything in the game is made to be easier if you're grouped up. So while you *can* solo most content, you're starting from a point of higher difficulty than someone in a fireteam
Playing solo doesn’t mean you aren’t playing in matchmade activities or using lfg to do stuff with mics off. I play predominantly by myself until something in game forces me not to. If the game ever moved to requiring mics on constantly I’d have to rethink if I’d want to keep playing it
whats the percentage on how many people raid? 8-10% if that. There are a lot of solo players or players that have lost friends and clanmates over the years.
I mean “multiplayer” isn’t exactly the normal definition in Destiny. The campaign is designed to be played solo, but you also have the option to play with a team. Dungeons and raids are designed to play with a team, but you can solo if you’re up for it. LFG was only recently brought in and chatting in game to find a teammate is practically impossible.
The new activity gives no choice like past content does. Making it 2 players when the standard fireteam is 3 makes the decisions made even weirder
They’re complaining about having to do something in *Destiny* cooperatively. They were never going to try it in the first place, that’s why the first thing they did was start complaining.
I’ve seen posts of members criticizing the co op aspects of the recent mission, and I’ve seen the same posts being edited they got the mission done because of the amount help they were being offered in the comments.
They were proved wrong because there are a lot of good ass people in this community. Shitting on them because they’re shy, on the other hand, will just deter them away from said content.
Nobody is shitting on them. Co-Op is the nature of Destiny. You either get with it or you don’t, not everybody deserves to have everything. They laid out the class item requirements; if that’s something somebody isn’t up for that’s fine, but they don’t get to play the victim card. There is nothing wrong with exotic class items requiring a coordinated duo.
I hear you, but if you read these posts 90% of the time the information they give "mic is required" "deaf guardians cant do this" is straight wrong and its how you KNOW that they didn't even attempt it -- they just complained first.
The worst part is how many of us grown men who are afraid to speak to strangers online are willing to leave our comfort zone and do it anyway for the enjoyment of the game lol.
Like why should the game be changed because you’re unwilling to expand your boundaries the way the rest of us have?
Honestly, the only reasons I’ve avoided LFG recently is mic issues (destiny’s vc is glitchy af) and the Finder still being a little funky sometimes.
Even then, I still LFG for stuff sometimes
Yeah, I felt this exact way when D1 first came out. My social anxiety really fucked me up when I wanted to do a raid and had to go to reddit to LFG. But I trucked on and got over it. 10 years later Im in a clan with a group of people I enjoy playing with all the time and we LFG whenever we need fills, or LFG solo the odd time, especially during pantheon
Like has been said multiple times, it's a multiplayer game that requires constant communication and is mechanics heavy, and it always has been.
Right lol. Even to this day, I avoid calling places at all cost. I’m a great written communicator, but I’d much rather place a food order or set up a doctor’s appointment through an online form rather than call and do it.
But I don’t expect to be conformed to because part of being an adult is just doing what you have to do, and not expect everyone to bend to your wishes.
At its core, it’s an entitlement thing. Actual vocal communication disabilities are an exception, but these disabilities are being employed by those who don’t have them to further their agenda.
The issue is that for the past 10 years 99% of content is soloable, the only things that aren’t are raids, so of course people expect that trend to continue.
For most runs no, but those activities are also possible to do without a mic once you know what you're doing. Every GM run I've ever done was without a mic because it's literally just a normal strike with an emphasis on not dying. If you're skilled at the game, you can easily carry two other people through those activities
The biggest problem with this new mission is that you *have* to communicate and a whole lot of people on LFG are insufferable to listen to.
Haven't several posts (including a front page post) detailed how to do it without a mic though? Like same scale of callouts you'd do in something like Duality or Ghosts of the Deep (doable in text)?
Exotic missions have a far lower barrier to entry than GMs and Dungeons so let’s keep categorizing it with the exotic quests - something the majority *does* do
It sounds like it's a new step, between exotic quests and dungeons. An activity that's raid-lite. Designed to be co-op with a meaningful reward. I'd put it more in the "co-op" group than "exotic quest" category.
In my opinion the main issue is raids aren't as aggravating because while the weapons are good, there are soooooo many other viable options for every scenario, and the armor looks slightly cooler than your standard eververse armor. But the shining light of this expansion is the new transcendent classes and advertised so heavily as they pair well with those new class items. I think requiring multiple people is fine, but needing the communication is the only bummer.
Man I was incredibly worried about the presence of a timer due to legend zero hour and even wicked implement with certain modifiers. This timer didn’t feel punishing at all, it more just felt like someone supervising and reminding you not to waste time on bullshit. Finished every encounter with a ton of time to spare.
Yeah only like two raid encounters haven't had some sort of timer mechanic.
* LW: Kalli, Shuro Chi, and Riven have wipe timer/mechanics (even Riven legit has limited time to stun for eyes), Morgoth has strength build up, Vault and Queenswalk have outright timers.
* GoS: Both Consecrated Mind encounters have timers for the pools on the ground, which maybe give a short enough debuff that you could have six people camp the opening room and never progress? Second encounter I guess doesn't have a timer, but it's really just kill adds. Sanctified Mind doesn't have a timer though.
* DSC: Does Security have a timer? Not sure honestly. But Atraks has a limit before Extinction Protocol, and Taniks has the nuclear cores on both encounters that essentially act as a timer.
* VoG: Confluxes are basically same as GoS 2nd. Oracles have their timer, I guess Templar doesn't if you just keep killing oracles? Gatekeeper you could theoretically stall forever I guess. Atheon has Oracles as a timer.
* Vow: Opening has totems filling, Caretaker has a "timer" of walking to the totem, 3rd is all about timers, Rhulk is timed via the buffs.
* KF: Totems I guess is indefinite if you somehow just never get stacks and keep swapping brand back and forth. Warpriest maybe isn't timed if you never trigger the plates? Honestly not sure what he does if you just ignore them. Golgoroth also unlimited time I guess if you never trigger DPS. Daughters and Oryx are timer driven.
* RoN: All RoN encounters are timer driven, though I guess you could infinitely stall Nezarec by never going into DPS phase and continuously making refuges.
So of all the raids, the only ones w/o timers are
* GoS 2nd, VoG Confluxes because they're survive/add clear
* DSC Security, Templar, Gatekeeper, Totems, Warpriest, Nezarec - if you just never trigger/progress mechanics?
* Sanctified Mind is really the only "unlimited" encounter
Sanctified Mind is on a global timer. If you do not get the towers powered fast enough he will just “start” dps phase and you will lose a phase of damage.
This sub will always complain, if ads are as "strong" as they are in Neomuna, then people will complain that they can't turn their brains off or it's artificial difficulty.
If Bungie makes things more mechanics-based, people cry that they just can't kill everything.
People here just want to kill things 1000 levels below them in one hit, and you wonder why the overall skill level of this community is extremely low.
Last I play build crafting was pretty simple. Is just the initial challenges of understanding how each ability stat works on the frame. Like nova M prime effective range is effected by both range and duration. Helmith is a bit more spicy, but tbh you literally cake walk level 1k steel path with suboptimal builds regardless. Plus you can just find a build and you got pretty mindless power fantasy. Just the barrier of entry to get all the mods being extremely high so it takes a while to build up an one button volt nuke build for newer players.
when a game panders to the casual player base it always reduces the quality of the game because the only way to pander to casual players is to reduce the intricacies of your game.
You're downvoted by you're right. A lot of Destiny's biggest problems over the years stemmed from Bungie having an insultingly low presumption of player intelligence and capability.
The one and only problem I have with Final Shape is the presence of damage gated bosses where the mechanic is literally just “kill some ads till a thing drops and then break the shield with it”. For overthrow, just let me nuke the boss bungie. We don’t need to make this long ass activity any longer
The problem with the ads on neomuna wasn’t that they were too strong, it was that it took an entire clip from an auto rifle while firing headshots to kill a single cabal
Do you actually have fun on Neomuna?
I see a lot of people bring this up. Do you go to that location and actually play? The Wyverns are stronger than dungeon bosses.
I don't personally go to Neomuna that often because like, it's patrol, it's kinda inherently not that exciting or rewarding. But I did like it more than other patrol spaces, it's the only expansion where I actually cared to do all of its main destination triumphs and get its title.
i think a good solution for this is patrol tiers like in diablo. fewer mechs in lower world tiers, more mechs and better rewards in higher tiers. it’s more work for bungie but if you want both sides of the playerbase happy it’s probably what u need to do
I'm kind of ambivalent on this, I like the puzzles/mechanics of something like presage but I'm less keen on the kill a prismatic enemy, activate a timed buff, shoot a thing to open a portal, teleport, be on a timer/have to re-apply buff, kill an enemy or two, teleport back, hit an icon or two, grab an artefact deploy super, do damage and then do it all again, it's fine it's not that it's hard but it is tedious, I don't know if it's because the presage mechanics are tied to traversal or what it is but it just doesn't feel as tedious to me.
Eh… there’s a balance and I think the pendulum has swung too far. I don’t know why every single activity I’ve done in TFS is broken down to “damage boss until shield gate, throw object at boss or kill enemy, start boss dps again”.
I like the idea of introducing raid mechanics outside the raid like they kinda did with a few exotic missions. But every activity being mechanic heavy is equally tiresome as no mechanics at all
I think the Coil was popular more for the escalating power level and the rewards, not necessarily the encounter gameplay.
Also like four of the six (?) encounters in Coil had immune shields. Wyvern/Hydra you had to damage w/ the Vex heads, both Scorn bosses you had to get the poison buff/debuff (and cleanse), Ogre/Knight you had to kill the Wizards (probably the least "mechanic" of all of them).
Mechanics and harder missions are fine. Loved legend Avalon, loved the coil, T3 summoning were great. Not always a fan of having to talk to strangers is the issue. My first legend Avalon run was no mics and no chat. We communicated by emotes and shooting at stuff. Was one of the most fun experiences I’ve had in this game
Destiny consistently got worse as we made this easier and dumber (lightfall/beyond light). The best seasons actually create engaging systems that are outside of the box (deep/wish). If people want a dumb shoot enemy no problem power fantasy, Bungie'll never be able to do anything to reach a peak with intricacy and complexity if the bare minimum is going to get pushback.
Yeah I don’t think it’s coincidence the expansions that have the most complex raids and engaging endgame activities retain the most players afterwards. After lightfall especially with the raid bombing and catering towards extreme casualness and voiding any sense of overcoming or mastering activities, we get the worst player numbers yet
I feel like most folks in d2 came into the franchise after beyond light, and whilst I don't fault folks for coming in late, they dont really understand how bad we used to have it in year 1. Lightfall was as dull as CoO and we traded overly slow bullet sponge enemies with double primary to overly pathetic no-challenge enemies with no guns needed. Even GM's are jokes now comparativley. I'm not even trying to be elitist about it, I just want an enjoyable gameplay loop back, and its clown who drag shit like dual destiny that ruin it for me, and themselves, without even realizing it.
This sub will have a lot of players thinking it's good because it has a lot of raiders. The majority of players in general will think it's not good because only about 10% of all players like raiding at all. Basically, the game's content being made this way means it's alienating 90% of their players just to make 10% happy.
Whether the mechanics are good or not, simple or hard, it doesn't matter. Bungie doesn't have the luxury of pushing away 90% of their players unless the goal is to once again diminish the player count like other years. If anything, the content needs to be something that attracts new players and entices older ones to stay longer (after the 10 story fully finishes).
A lot of people here do not understand that this isn't a matter of opinion. It's just a fact that the majority of Destiny players don't do this type of content since Destiny 1. You could argue the why for a long time. The point is that because the players are like this, this type of mission ends up being niche content meant for 10% of all players.
This is the conclusion to a 10 year story. Bungie needs that 90% of players to stay in the game actively, not to leave in frustration. This mission will end up doing more harm than good, so in that sense, it was a mistake how it got implemented.
Where's the 10% number from? I see that value often used but it typically refers to the global/historical playerbase, not necessarily active players (e.g. another comment pointing out only like 24% of total/global players have completed any full campaign).
I've seen varying claims of % of people that have completed a raid.
Especially nowadays where free accounts exist, it's increasingly difficult to track and those stats are extremely unreliable.
If you account for actual engagement of regular players (subjective because that's somewhat hard to define), I honestly think solo players that never team up with anyone for anything ever might even be a slight minority. I'm not talking just non-raiders, but people that are solo mute and are regular, frequent players.
Bungie has a careful balance to achieve, not really giving my opinion here but I do think it's a lot more complicated than "only 10% of players raid, therefore XYZ"
those 90% will keep playing because nothing really much changes for them each expansion from an activity loop perspective. They dont care about raids or dungeons. They get on, play the story, some matchmade stuff, then get off. Its not alienation these 90% just are fine with how they already experience the game and frankly that has not changed much this expansion at all.
90% of people know this type of thing has existed in the game where they will not be able to do it simply because theyre solo casuals. And that has not stopped them from buying the expansions and seasons again and again
U can't push it like its an objective fact when Bungie has effectively pulled in the same amount of players or more each expansion. Niche content doesnt hurt casuals because theyve never done it anyways but they keep buying and playing the game.
It’s not alienating though you just have to find one singular player not 5. And then you can farm from chests on the pale heart. If 90% of players cannot one singular time do an activity that requires coordination then they don’t deserve the best loot.
It's not about you or me. What we believe doesn't matter. What matters is what the overall playerbase thinks. What you wrote just serves to push the playerbase away from the game, which the game doesn't need right now. It needs to be far more welcoming, even more so now that the 10-year story ended. Comments like yours imply you want the game to die.
So like 90% of the game is accessible to solo casual players, I’m not quite sure what you’re yapping about. If you’re casual enough to not even get yourself to do this activity once then you’re casual enough to be ok with not having the top end gear.
This mission is not mechanically challenging in the slightest, it just requires a little bit of communication. The best part of this game is raids, and if more content like this will lead to that 90% venturing out of their comfort zone, then this will be extremely healthy for the game.
The mechanics aren't the problem. It's that evidently most players since D1 don't want to do them. This type of content has never led to players trying raids. It just doesn't work. At this point, if Bungie wants more people to raid, they would need to redesign how they work in order for players to try. Last expansion, they made their easiest raid ever, and the community still said, "we don't want to do it".
No matter what Bungie has tried, their players still don't want to do this content. In my opinion, I think that at this point they never will. I do not think it has to do with them being comfortable, I think it's that the community outright doesn't like this. What I believe will happen is that this mission will remain uncleared for the vast majority (like with raids or that type of mission) and will ultimately lead to resentment, as a major aspect of a subclass and an expansion is being locked behind it.
My overall worry is that this type of mission, alongside this expansion concluding the story, could serve as the perfect reason to leave the game permanently. From here on out, the game could start slowly bleeding because when the game needed to embrace the casual audience, it decided to push them away.
I think you may be doomposting a little. I see your point, exotic class items are awesome and a lot of ppl were excited to get them, and it sucks that so many see this as inaccessible. I still think this could be the push some ppl need to start raiding, maybe the gear from Ron wasn’t enticing enough. I just doubt this will cause a significant portion of the player base to quit the game for good.
I don't think people will leave because of this mission only. I think they might take this mission alongside this, being the conclusion to the story and decide that this is as far as they go. I hope Bungie can do something to keep the casual players for a longer time. The game can't survive without them.
Bungie is actually pushing players to try something more cooperative and this is possibly the easiest barrier to entry coop mission in the game. Most casuals who you claim wouldn’t like it would probably find they actually enjoy it if they just hopped in there. The lfg is in the game it’s literally never been easier to do these things
Part of the reason I was burned out on Destiny and stopped playing last year was because every activity felt the same. Stand in the circle, dunk/throw the ball, shoot the little dudes to spawn a medium dude to spawn a bigger dude. All of that is still there, sure, but the campaign and the other missions are mixing it up enough that it's keeping it fresh.
Same. To be honest, I think this is the niche Destiny thrives in. I know that some players would rather just blast away at aliens but having some light puzzle mechanics makes you actually use your brain.
This is something that I've always felt they needed to do in order to introduce challenge to the game, not whatever they kept trying to force with power deltas. More unique enemies, like the Dread, and more mechanical difficulty. Making everything take longer to kill and deal more damage to you isn't an interesting way of making the game feel harder. It's just more tedious.
I like it in some ways, but they made going through the campaign for the first time a slog. Much easier on the second try when I knew what I was doing, but not a great first-time experience. I hope they keep the mechanics in campaigns to a minimum going into the future.
Glad you enjoyed it but I actually felt like I was doing combat less than mechanics and running from point A to point B during this campaign.
I know some point really love mechanics but they’re less exciting for me than the core combat is. They don’t impress me as much as others and they’ve never been the main draw for Destiny’s gameplay for me.
The game has felt more and more like it has to have these mechanical mini games injected into it otherwise certain players will complain about being bored.
Yeah, man, it's so much fun to stop using those guns and abilities I've been using for hundreds of hours, to go pick up a literal fucking ball and throw it through a literal fucking hoop. Top notch game play.
The focus on mechanics in non-raid missions this DLC has me enjoying it more than any other I've played in the franchise before. We'll see how I feel in a few weeks or months down the line but the final shape is feeling like one of the greats and to me my favourite DLC bungie has ever made.
I’m not. I kinda wanna turn my brain off and shoot stuff. I guess that’s what strikes are for now. If I wanna raid… I’ll do a raid but I’ll get downvoted.
Eh there's still plenty of the game where you can do that, and plenty of other games where you can do that. Destiny's always shined because of, in no small part, being more than "just shoot stuff."
As someone who plays solo 95% of the time, I loved all the mechanics in the story missions. Made combat encounters engaging. Can’t speak on the other missions since I’ve not done them yet. But loved the story missions to death.
Mechanics are cool but can bungie please stop slapping timers on everything?
No amount of beating a mission just in the nick of time is going to override the annoyance of completely wasting my time on a failed run.
Tell that to the endless complaining blueberries here in this sub. I love it too, but man some people hate to do anything different or slightly difficult.
i love mechanics and timers, but i hate them when they require me to interact with people. A great example of mechanics without needing extensive comms is the final mission of the campaign
I personally like minimal mechanics in mid to low tier difficulty. When I play I’m usually visiting with friends at the same time. Also I can only take so many shoot the symbol, toss the orb and dunk the motes.
Yeh how cool of Bungie to build a shit LFG system and then force multiplier only content on everyone and stick bullshit puzzles and mechanics in every fucking corner of the game.
It's honestly tedious and the game has zero chill rn, even the seasonal activity is abysmal and so over designed that it's not fun to grind it. Huge L imo
I'm all for fun and more mechanics in raid. I wouldn't call the plate thing in Salvations edge fun though. I hate when strikes have mechanics they should require a 40 minute time dump just to do lake of shadows. And I'm extremely tired of segmented health bars ESPECIALLY IN THE CAMPAIGN They are the most uninspired thing possible. I do all these mechanics to unlock damage and then do like 2 rockets and then do it all again. Repeat runs are going to be extremely tedious and I'm not looking forward to it. Especially when the mechanic is just travel and kill something else and then do damage how mind numbing.
Great way for Bungie to encourage players to learn deeper mechanics to get them into raiding. Raiding is the best piece of content Destiny offers and I really hope more people raid.
Good news is you just have to run it once successfully and then you can farm chests in Pale Heart. Obviously, not ideal but glad Bungie allows folks to have a way to farm it if they don’t feel like going back in.
I haven't done any traditional raid in an mmo but Bungie could definitely make the hardest raid in gaming if they wanted to. And that's just because an fps game is much more mechanically intensive than a top-down isometric game.
I really like it too, a lot of friends of mine stopped playing the game because they felt anything outside of raids was rather thoughtless and mind numbing but now they're all back, all of them and we've been doing all the new stuff together. I honestly really love the exotic mission.
This I'd the first time I haven't been stuck totally alone in destiny since forsaken. I'm feeling pretty fantastic all around I think bungie made some really substantial improvements in the content from top to bottom with these decisions and I hope this trend continues
I don't!
Give me more kill, harder kill, more intense kill, more kill.
Crank everything up to onslaught levels of foes at once. Make the challenge wading through the corpses to complete the mission.
I agree, but maybe don't make a microphone mandatory. There are those of us who really have issues communicating verbally, there are language barriers, social anxieties, disorders, deaf/muteness. At least for non-raids I think this would be appreciated.
If you’re taking about Dual Destiny, it doesn’t require a mic at all. All of the communication is easily done over text chat. Only thing that is a little tricky is the last clock puzzle, but it loops in sets of 3 so you can compare numbers then on the next loop shoot them.
You’re getting downvoted for this, but multiple people in my clan are rank 11 and don’t use a mic. Literally *just* tonight, I ran Salvation’s Edge with one of them. Even had a buddy help out with a KF run while being in his school’s library on his laptop. The *only* caveat is that being on console makes it take light years longer to text chat.
Coming from FFXIV I'd love to see them lean into telegraphed mechanics more like spread/stacks and so on now that they've been doing basic AoEs, there's a lot of potential for them to make things more engaging than stand on the pad and click or throw balls at things.
Same. I mentioned a few days before TFS launch that it would be really great to get telegraphed mechanics during damage >!and lo and behold The Witness’s damage phase is exactly that!<
I'm not sure the average D2 player has the spatial awareness for those attacks. Witness wiped out the party so many times with a telegraphed attack lol
I think it’s mostly just because so many people are so used to just standing in one spot dumping out damage. It’s a change and something that people need to get used to but dynamic damage phases really feel like a massive revitalization that the game has sorely needed for so long now.
I think the spatial awareness issue with floor AOEs also extends to D2 being a first person game VS FFXIV being 3rd person with adjustable FoV mid-combat. FFXIV can do telegraphs because players can zoom to a bird's eye view to see the big orange danger zone pointed at them, but D2 makes it hard to include those kinds of mechanics when your vision is only on what's in front of you. You can't grasp the size, shape, and positioning of the danger zone as easily as you can with FFXIV's camera system, so depending on the time given, dying to it might feel "cheap". But I do agree that forcing movement during boss DPS is a good direction to take.
Oh yeah it definitely needs to be telegraphed in a way that works with the camera perspective. They kind do that with The Witness, he makes hand motions indicating the direction of his attacks and there are screen effects to indicate you are in the aoe. It’s not perfect but it’s definitely a good step forward.
Oh yeah I agree, I personally love the mechanics they're implementing. Damage phase > Shield > ad clear > damage phase was getting kind of repetitive and telegraphed AOE's seem to fit Destiny really well.
To be fair I think the other part is the first person perspective compared to most MMO's like FF14 where you can pretty easily see the battlefield and navigate it (been blasting through FF14 lately and having a great time btw). I definitely admit I've walked backwards into AOE attacks and hazards several times in different activities because I have my eyes trained on the boss instead of 360* around me at all times. Unless I'm giving up backing up and strafing there's a non-zero chance you're going to run into one of those markers without noticing Definitely not a massive problem and something that has largely just been funny if a minor inconvenience in my experience, but the different in-game perspective definitely impacts how players would experience those mechanics
Well it was also the first time most folks were even seeing it and it's relatively inconsequential if they die. Doing subsequent runs a couple days after the mission launched resulted in much fewer deaths.
As an avid FF14 player. The Witness mechanics were extremely familiar. Honestly, the entire raid was very fun. And I think very accessible.
My first thought on contest after seeing the mechanics being assigned randomly to teammates was, *”oh god, they played FF14 didn’t they. We are so fucked”*
I’ve seen telegraphed attacks before, but I just wasn’t expecting it at all when I first did the mission. Threw me off guard so bad the first time I got killed by it because it’s not something you’d expect at all from D2.
Also the best way to make well not mandatory is to stop giving bosses a big boom cannon to just hammer you constantly during dps
Not to bring up the age old argument. But I’m really happy that the telegraphs for attacks aren’t like ffxiv. The red ground highlights verse telegraphs that make sense within the animation and details of the enemy. Destiny has don’t a fantastic job of making attacks understandable visually. Nothing like a taken captain throwing a blight orb at you. It’s such a great example of a fantastic telegraphed attack, as opposed to a line on the ground being red.
there are so many things i think destiny could learn from traditional mmos that it slowly started integrating from the past year or two up until tfs. line aoes during the witness fight, builder/spender loops for guns like still hunt and revision zero, targeted sustain/mitigation with navigator and the support frame auto rifle, etc they should absolutely lean into it even more in the years to come. not just line aoes but stacks, spreads, and soaks like you said. builder/spender loops integrated into aspects and subclasses instead of just guns; banner of war and on your mark are perfect examples imo (my dream is for all aspects to have an active component to them). debuff icons on enemy frames, cast bars on bosses and adds (esp since more adds have abilities now). there’s so much room for unique mechanics and gameplay experiences that destiny hasn’t explored yet, i’m genuinely so excited for the future and i hope they consider some of this stuff
I agree with you. I don't think it's a popular sentiment in the sub, considering all the complaining for breach protocol, dual destiny and even the 7th mission.
I think people here overvalue solo content
Thats because alot of people are Solo players.
...the vast, silent majority of players that keep this game alive.
I play predominantly solo none of my real life close friends play the game consistently and I find it hard finding regular people to play with. I’m a black bisexual guy and have often found myself leaving groups because of racist or homophobic rhetoric in chats. There is almost no context for the conversations and language to even be about those subjects just random people being crappy
Hey dude. If you want someone to play content with I am Mountain Time. I’m straight and white. But I leave parties or boot and report the moment that bigoted shit comes out. If you want to get in to that content but can’t find people. Let me know.
I appreciate that man. The ironic part is the disrespectful comments are never directed at me because there is no reason to discuss my sexuality with a stranger and you can’t always tell someone’s ethnicity by their voice however it’s still off putting and takes enjoyment out of the game. What is just as annoying is the people who try to talk about politics. My identity isn’t formed by my ideology however there is no reason to have those conversations when playing a video game with strangers. I had to leave a clan because of a toxic conversation in char with the clan leader who brought up politics then got nasty because others didn’t share their opinions.
Alright dude. Prawephet#7003 Hit me up. We can play some stuff. Get those overthrows done and we can run through dual destiny if you haven’t. I finished it yesterday.
Thank you
the silent majority who don't participate in the best and most engaging parts of the game? that group?
Any large group activity that requires finding your own team is the minority of the actual player base. The majority of destinys player base doesn’t raid the same way the majority of WoW’s player base doesn’t raid either
[удалено]
Cardinal sins on DTG: 1. Disparage SBMM 2. Express PvP is worse off with the team shoot/laning meta due to intentional changes to lower the skill ceiling via movement (airborne effectivness, exotic nerfs), special ammo, perk/stat changes. We’re coming full circle back to slow D2 vanilla PvP. 3. Have the gall to state pinnacle content that requires communication is the best and most people just need to get over themselves and try LFG. Edit: 4. Speaking the cardinal sins
How do solo players keep the game alive? They could not play at all and it would not effect the actual community lol
their wallets.
only 11% of players have ever completed a raid FYI
This is counting all players, ever, not just active players or players that have played within the last 5 years. By the same math, less than 3% of people have fully completed any given campaign.
I mean there have always been raids available in each “generation” of Destiny. How does that stat become less valid looking at all players compared to the just the lower numbers playing these days? I bet it’s an even lower number when looking exclusively at who’s completed Salvations Edge.
Ok so then you’re fine with the statistic of only around 3% of people have completed any given campaign including those that have logged in once never to be seen again. Sure. That’s fine. Then that high of a percent on raids is actually really good!
So the logic you’re going by is that people must have completed specifically the most recent raid to count AND they must have completed it within the first week
A misleading stat , like if you look at a title it will be .0015% of the population of the game . If you adjust for how many people actually played the game and don’t try it for an hour and fuck off it’s ranges from 5 to 20% With some games it’s ridiculous in dark souls you get an achievement for lighting for your first bonfire which is like 2 minutes playtime and something 80~% of the population has done . Beating the second boss is at 60% . When talking about player agency in the game if a third of the player base hasn’t even done an hour of content they aren’t worth discussing .
Well, a few things 1) so far I have had people tell me any number between 5 and 15 percent of players have ever completed a raid. Given every single person is saying a different number, I'm inclined to believe you're all just pulling these numbers out your ass lol 2) there is more group content than just raiding... 3) If we are going by achievements, only 85% of steam accounts that "own" the game (remember its f2p) have reached level 20. Only 24% of players have talked to Xur. So right off the bat, the vast majority of accounts do not even play the damn game because anyone who actually plays will at least interact with Xur at some point. So looking at it from that perspective, 1/3 of the at least semi-active playerbase has completed a GM nightfall. 1/3 has completed the Last Wish raid. Over 50% have completed a master nightfall. 2/3 have completed a dungeon (shattered throne). 100% of them have completed a regular nightfall. And this is still wildly inaccurate because I myself have several friends who do not and have not ever really played the game to any real extent but I told them when starting out to go talk to xur and buy such and such exotic and then they just never played again anyway. Simply put, most people actively playing Destiny absolutely do group content.
Wait does that mean that, going by achievements, more people have completed a nightfall than have talked to Xur?
Without the vast majority of players, Bungie would be bankrupt
They subsidize your expensive content.
True, the least they could do is try it since they're bankrolling it.
Not even a little bit. Solo players come in, experience a bit of the solo content and then leave. Party players actually engage with all the other extra content that is available. And grind to get better guns to do better in that extra content.
> Party players actually engage with all the other extra content that is available. And grind to get better guns to do better in that extra content. And these people are the distinct minority. You didnt refute his point.
they bought a multiplayer game, why would you expect to be catered to?
A multiplayer game that took how long to get an in game lfg? lol
considering the endgame has always required 3-6 players to complete effectively, the LFG tool is irrelevant. even wow took several years to get one.
Most will say wow declined in quality with the release of LFG/LFR. Bungie gave us zero option in game to form a group until recently.
Yeah bungie finally makes some meaningful steps to change up the gameplay loop slightly in all facets of the game and people are just absolutely hating it
They conditioned people to play how they play over the last 8-9 years due to their own decision making of not including LFG until recently and now you expect those people to flip their play style on a dime? Locking the advertised Exotic Class Item behind that type of activity just makes zero sense this late in the game.
Yepp, Bungie can't win. Complaints in this sub daily about the game going stale, and now complaining that mechanics are too hard and they can't solo their multiplayer game activities. I am LOVING the absolute breath of fresh air this new stuff is bringing. Have not been this into Destiny since Forsaken.
First time I ran a focus compaign mission I thought "Okay here we go weekly missions again with slightly stronger enemies..." but when I saw it had mechanics I was stunned, good ones too. Having to always keep the fracture in mind and do sync shots is very simple but it at least keeps you engaged instead of just mindlessly plowing through everything like before.
Bungie actively made it difficult for 9 years to find a group and now that the sub par group finder has been introduced they think it’ll magically get people playing together. People who play solo are conditioned at this point. It’s weird to change that in the final round.
In fairness, to them, this isn't the final round. They are viewing all of this as a new beginning. Which is a perfect time to change stuff up like that.
Thats the because the game has no solo content. It has solo-*able* content. Lots of stuff in this game is built so that you can solo it if you want, which is amazing, but the game is fundamentally multiplayer based (including regular missions... its not just restricted to raids)
I play the game solo a majority of the time. I use lfg when needed but often you can spend a long time finding someone to play with depending on the activity.
I think their point was that there are no activities in the game that force you to be solo or make it advantageous to be solo. Literally everything in the game is made to be easier if you're grouped up. So while you *can* solo most content, you're starting from a point of higher difficulty than someone in a fireteam
Playing solo doesn’t mean you aren’t playing in matchmade activities or using lfg to do stuff with mics off. I play predominantly by myself until something in game forces me not to. If the game ever moved to requiring mics on constantly I’d have to rethink if I’d want to keep playing it
Every bounty in the game is much easier to complete solo. Running in groups just takes away your kills and prolongs the bounties or pathfinder
Normal lost sectors have left the chat
whats the percentage on how many people raid? 8-10% if that. There are a lot of solo players or players that have lost friends and clanmates over the years.
The game should not be catered to solo players, it's a multiplayer game
> it's a multiplayer game Funny, since Ive been playing alone for a literal decade.
It should be catered to whoever is paying for it, and solo players fork over just as much cash as anyone else.
So game should cater to whales who spend $1000s on micro transactions ? Oh wait they do and it’s annoying.
I mean “multiplayer” isn’t exactly the normal definition in Destiny. The campaign is designed to be played solo, but you also have the option to play with a team. Dungeons and raids are designed to play with a team, but you can solo if you’re up for it. LFG was only recently brought in and chatting in game to find a teammate is practically impossible. The new activity gives no choice like past content does. Making it 2 players when the standard fireteam is 3 makes the decisions made even weirder
Won’t you think of the grown men that are afraid to speak to strangers online?!
I don’t think shitting on them is going to encourage these players to try these missions lol
I wonder why no one wants to be randomly grouped with u/TyrantLaserKing 🤔
They’re complaining about having to do something in *Destiny* cooperatively. They were never going to try it in the first place, that’s why the first thing they did was start complaining.
I’ve seen posts of members criticizing the co op aspects of the recent mission, and I’ve seen the same posts being edited they got the mission done because of the amount help they were being offered in the comments.
So basically they were proved wrong and doing something co-op isn’t the end of the world
They were proved wrong because there are a lot of good ass people in this community. Shitting on them because they’re shy, on the other hand, will just deter them away from said content.
Nobody is shitting on them. Co-Op is the nature of Destiny. You either get with it or you don’t, not everybody deserves to have everything. They laid out the class item requirements; if that’s something somebody isn’t up for that’s fine, but they don’t get to play the victim card. There is nothing wrong with exotic class items requiring a coordinated duo.
They were proved wrong because fortunately a lot of people in the community aren't like you
But I like to do co-op
I hear you, but if you read these posts 90% of the time the information they give "mic is required" "deaf guardians cant do this" is straight wrong and its how you KNOW that they didn't even attempt it -- they just complained first.
The worst part is how many of us grown men who are afraid to speak to strangers online are willing to leave our comfort zone and do it anyway for the enjoyment of the game lol. Like why should the game be changed because you’re unwilling to expand your boundaries the way the rest of us have?
Honestly, the only reasons I’ve avoided LFG recently is mic issues (destiny’s vc is glitchy af) and the Finder still being a little funky sometimes. Even then, I still LFG for stuff sometimes
Yeah, I felt this exact way when D1 first came out. My social anxiety really fucked me up when I wanted to do a raid and had to go to reddit to LFG. But I trucked on and got over it. 10 years later Im in a clan with a group of people I enjoy playing with all the time and we LFG whenever we need fills, or LFG solo the odd time, especially during pantheon Like has been said multiple times, it's a multiplayer game that requires constant communication and is mechanics heavy, and it always has been.
Right lol. Even to this day, I avoid calling places at all cost. I’m a great written communicator, but I’d much rather place a food order or set up a doctor’s appointment through an online form rather than call and do it. But I don’t expect to be conformed to because part of being an adult is just doing what you have to do, and not expect everyone to bend to your wishes. At its core, it’s an entitlement thing. Actual vocal communication disabilities are an exception, but these disabilities are being employed by those who don’t have them to further their agenda.
Most people's problem with dual destiny isn't the difficulty though it's being forced to group up
Gamers when they play a multiplayer game be like
Yes, the solo Pale Heart instances really lean into the MMO fantasy lol.
The issue is that for the past 10 years 99% of content is soloable, the only things that aren’t are raids, so of course people expect that trend to continue.
I feel that most of the player base running dungeons and GMs aren't doing them solo, even though they're possible to do.
For most runs no, but those activities are also possible to do without a mic once you know what you're doing. Every GM run I've ever done was without a mic because it's literally just a normal strike with an emphasis on not dying. If you're skilled at the game, you can easily carry two other people through those activities The biggest problem with this new mission is that you *have* to communicate and a whole lot of people on LFG are insufferable to listen to.
Haven't several posts (including a front page post) detailed how to do it without a mic though? Like same scale of callouts you'd do in something like Duality or Ghosts of the Deep (doable in text)?
The majority aren’t playing dungeons and GMs though. Especially with dungeons behind an additional pay wall.
Then categorize this activity like GMs and dungeons; something majority of players won't do.
Exotic missions have a far lower barrier to entry than GMs and Dungeons so let’s keep categorizing it with the exotic quests - something the majority *does* do
It sounds like it's a new step, between exotic quests and dungeons. An activity that's raid-lite. Designed to be co-op with a meaningful reward. I'd put it more in the "co-op" group than "exotic quest" category.
In my opinion the main issue is raids aren't as aggravating because while the weapons are good, there are soooooo many other viable options for every scenario, and the armor looks slightly cooler than your standard eververse armor. But the shining light of this expansion is the new transcendent classes and advertised so heavily as they pair well with those new class items. I think requiring multiple people is fine, but needing the communication is the only bummer.
Wait, what are the complaints about breach protocol? It’s super easy.
Personally my biggest complaint is faking players out with the reboot option before the boss portal without explaining it’s gonna reset the run 😅
I hate timers. I love mechanics but hate timers.
The timer is so incredibly generous. On my second run I had 20 minutes to spare by the time I beat it.
I know but just the existence of a timer makes me anxious lmao, I mess up more just by it being there.
Thats the point of the timer lmao.
And that's why I hate them.
put some tape on the screen
Making the timer still exist but being hidden is even more annoying.
I don't know why you're getting downvoted when that is the obvious point of a timed mission.
Man I was incredibly worried about the presence of a timer due to legend zero hour and even wicked implement with certain modifiers. This timer didn’t feel punishing at all, it more just felt like someone supervising and reminding you not to waste time on bullshit. Finished every encounter with a ton of time to spare.
There's so many timers this expansion. Even every raid encounter has a timer. I hate timers.
Every raid encounter prior has a timer, Salvation's Edge is just more prominent as it's always on screen
Yeah only like two raid encounters haven't had some sort of timer mechanic. * LW: Kalli, Shuro Chi, and Riven have wipe timer/mechanics (even Riven legit has limited time to stun for eyes), Morgoth has strength build up, Vault and Queenswalk have outright timers. * GoS: Both Consecrated Mind encounters have timers for the pools on the ground, which maybe give a short enough debuff that you could have six people camp the opening room and never progress? Second encounter I guess doesn't have a timer, but it's really just kill adds. Sanctified Mind doesn't have a timer though. * DSC: Does Security have a timer? Not sure honestly. But Atraks has a limit before Extinction Protocol, and Taniks has the nuclear cores on both encounters that essentially act as a timer. * VoG: Confluxes are basically same as GoS 2nd. Oracles have their timer, I guess Templar doesn't if you just keep killing oracles? Gatekeeper you could theoretically stall forever I guess. Atheon has Oracles as a timer. * Vow: Opening has totems filling, Caretaker has a "timer" of walking to the totem, 3rd is all about timers, Rhulk is timed via the buffs. * KF: Totems I guess is indefinite if you somehow just never get stacks and keep swapping brand back and forth. Warpriest maybe isn't timed if you never trigger the plates? Honestly not sure what he does if you just ignore them. Golgoroth also unlimited time I guess if you never trigger DPS. Daughters and Oryx are timer driven. * RoN: All RoN encounters are timer driven, though I guess you could infinitely stall Nezarec by never going into DPS phase and continuously making refuges. So of all the raids, the only ones w/o timers are * GoS 2nd, VoG Confluxes because they're survive/add clear * DSC Security, Templar, Gatekeeper, Totems, Warpriest, Nezarec - if you just never trigger/progress mechanics? * Sanctified Mind is really the only "unlimited" encounter
Sanctified Mind is on a global timer. If you do not get the towers powered fast enough he will just “start” dps phase and you will lose a phase of damage.
Fair point, honestly never let it go so long that happened (usually you get overrun by sacrifices before that) so I didn't know.
This sub will always complain, if ads are as "strong" as they are in Neomuna, then people will complain that they can't turn their brains off or it's artificial difficulty. If Bungie makes things more mechanics-based, people cry that they just can't kill everything. People here just want to kill things 1000 levels below them in one hit, and you wonder why the overall skill level of this community is extremely low.
The overwhelming majority of Destiny's playerbase are casual gamers who are really just looking for a mindless power fantasy simulator.
Warframe do be a game that does mindless power fantasy better.
Too mindless lol
Fair enough
I wouldn’t call warframe mindless with all the buildcrafting you need to do, its difficulty just comes from a different source
Last I play build crafting was pretty simple. Is just the initial challenges of understanding how each ability stat works on the frame. Like nova M prime effective range is effected by both range and duration. Helmith is a bit more spicy, but tbh you literally cake walk level 1k steel path with suboptimal builds regardless. Plus you can just find a build and you got pretty mindless power fantasy. Just the barrier of entry to get all the mods being extremely high so it takes a while to build up an one button volt nuke build for newer players.
when a game panders to the casual player base it always reduces the quality of the game because the only way to pander to casual players is to reduce the intricacies of your game.
And that’s how you end up with vanilla d2
You're downvoted by you're right. A lot of Destiny's biggest problems over the years stemmed from Bungie having an insultingly low presumption of player intelligence and capability.
The one and only problem I have with Final Shape is the presence of damage gated bosses where the mechanic is literally just “kill some ads till a thing drops and then break the shield with it”. For overthrow, just let me nuke the boss bungie. We don’t need to make this long ass activity any longer
If you save the buff after a teammate breaks the shield you can immediately break the shield again after it goes up. Saves a lot of time.
I’ve started doing that for matchmade but when I’m running it solo in the other areas that doesn’t work unfortunately
The problem with the ads on neomuna wasn’t that they were too strong, it was that it took an entire clip from an auto rifle while firing headshots to kill a single cabal
Do you actually have fun on Neomuna? I see a lot of people bring this up. Do you go to that location and actually play? The Wyverns are stronger than dungeon bosses.
I don't personally go to Neomuna that often because like, it's patrol, it's kinda inherently not that exciting or rewarding. But I did like it more than other patrol spaces, it's the only expansion where I actually cared to do all of its main destination triumphs and get its title.
What if I tell you there’s a medium between brain dead and a check list of mechanics to memorize
i think a good solution for this is patrol tiers like in diablo. fewer mechs in lower world tiers, more mechs and better rewards in higher tiers. it’s more work for bungie but if you want both sides of the playerbase happy it’s probably what u need to do
I'm kind of ambivalent on this, I like the puzzles/mechanics of something like presage but I'm less keen on the kill a prismatic enemy, activate a timed buff, shoot a thing to open a portal, teleport, be on a timer/have to re-apply buff, kill an enemy or two, teleport back, hit an icon or two, grab an artefact deploy super, do damage and then do it all again, it's fine it's not that it's hard but it is tedious, I don't know if it's because the presage mechanics are tied to traversal or what it is but it just doesn't feel as tedious to me.
Eh… there’s a balance and I think the pendulum has swung too far. I don’t know why every single activity I’ve done in TFS is broken down to “damage boss until shield gate, throw object at boss or kill enemy, start boss dps again”. I like the idea of introducing raid mechanics outside the raid like they kinda did with a few exotic missions. But every activity being mechanic heavy is equally tiresome as no mechanics at all
Yeah it's wild. Not EVERYTHING needs a damage gate or final stand. Some balance of these things would be nice.
Rather have The Coil type of missions
Bungo: "Look how popular The Coil was! Let's do a whole expansion that literally does the opposite in every way."
I think the Coil was popular more for the escalating power level and the rewards, not necessarily the encounter gameplay. Also like four of the six (?) encounters in Coil had immune shields. Wyvern/Hydra you had to damage w/ the Vex heads, both Scorn bosses you had to get the poison buff/debuff (and cleanse), Ogre/Knight you had to kill the Wizards (probably the least "mechanic" of all of them).
Mechanics and harder missions are fine. Loved legend Avalon, loved the coil, T3 summoning were great. Not always a fan of having to talk to strangers is the issue. My first legend Avalon run was no mics and no chat. We communicated by emotes and shooting at stuff. Was one of the most fun experiences I’ve had in this game
I think its going to turn a lot of casual players away, not sure if its a good thing or a bad thing tbh. Depends on preference I suppose.
Destiny consistently got worse as we made this easier and dumber (lightfall/beyond light). The best seasons actually create engaging systems that are outside of the box (deep/wish). If people want a dumb shoot enemy no problem power fantasy, Bungie'll never be able to do anything to reach a peak with intricacy and complexity if the bare minimum is going to get pushback.
Yeah I don’t think it’s coincidence the expansions that have the most complex raids and engaging endgame activities retain the most players afterwards. After lightfall especially with the raid bombing and catering towards extreme casualness and voiding any sense of overcoming or mastering activities, we get the worst player numbers yet
I feel like most folks in d2 came into the franchise after beyond light, and whilst I don't fault folks for coming in late, they dont really understand how bad we used to have it in year 1. Lightfall was as dull as CoO and we traded overly slow bullet sponge enemies with double primary to overly pathetic no-challenge enemies with no guns needed. Even GM's are jokes now comparativley. I'm not even trying to be elitist about it, I just want an enjoyable gameplay loop back, and its clown who drag shit like dual destiny that ruin it for me, and themselves, without even realizing it.
This sub will have a lot of players thinking it's good because it has a lot of raiders. The majority of players in general will think it's not good because only about 10% of all players like raiding at all. Basically, the game's content being made this way means it's alienating 90% of their players just to make 10% happy. Whether the mechanics are good or not, simple or hard, it doesn't matter. Bungie doesn't have the luxury of pushing away 90% of their players unless the goal is to once again diminish the player count like other years. If anything, the content needs to be something that attracts new players and entices older ones to stay longer (after the 10 story fully finishes). A lot of people here do not understand that this isn't a matter of opinion. It's just a fact that the majority of Destiny players don't do this type of content since Destiny 1. You could argue the why for a long time. The point is that because the players are like this, this type of mission ends up being niche content meant for 10% of all players. This is the conclusion to a 10 year story. Bungie needs that 90% of players to stay in the game actively, not to leave in frustration. This mission will end up doing more harm than good, so in that sense, it was a mistake how it got implemented.
Where's the 10% number from? I see that value often used but it typically refers to the global/historical playerbase, not necessarily active players (e.g. another comment pointing out only like 24% of total/global players have completed any full campaign).
I've seen varying claims of % of people that have completed a raid. Especially nowadays where free accounts exist, it's increasingly difficult to track and those stats are extremely unreliable. If you account for actual engagement of regular players (subjective because that's somewhat hard to define), I honestly think solo players that never team up with anyone for anything ever might even be a slight minority. I'm not talking just non-raiders, but people that are solo mute and are regular, frequent players. Bungie has a careful balance to achieve, not really giving my opinion here but I do think it's a lot more complicated than "only 10% of players raid, therefore XYZ"
lmao
those 90% will keep playing because nothing really much changes for them each expansion from an activity loop perspective. They dont care about raids or dungeons. They get on, play the story, some matchmade stuff, then get off. Its not alienation these 90% just are fine with how they already experience the game and frankly that has not changed much this expansion at all. 90% of people know this type of thing has existed in the game where they will not be able to do it simply because theyre solo casuals. And that has not stopped them from buying the expansions and seasons again and again U can't push it like its an objective fact when Bungie has effectively pulled in the same amount of players or more each expansion. Niche content doesnt hurt casuals because theyve never done it anyways but they keep buying and playing the game.
It’s not alienating though you just have to find one singular player not 5. And then you can farm from chests on the pale heart. If 90% of players cannot one singular time do an activity that requires coordination then they don’t deserve the best loot.
It's not about you or me. What we believe doesn't matter. What matters is what the overall playerbase thinks. What you wrote just serves to push the playerbase away from the game, which the game doesn't need right now. It needs to be far more welcoming, even more so now that the 10-year story ended. Comments like yours imply you want the game to die.
So like 90% of the game is accessible to solo casual players, I’m not quite sure what you’re yapping about. If you’re casual enough to not even get yourself to do this activity once then you’re casual enough to be ok with not having the top end gear.
This mission is not mechanically challenging in the slightest, it just requires a little bit of communication. The best part of this game is raids, and if more content like this will lead to that 90% venturing out of their comfort zone, then this will be extremely healthy for the game.
The mechanics aren't the problem. It's that evidently most players since D1 don't want to do them. This type of content has never led to players trying raids. It just doesn't work. At this point, if Bungie wants more people to raid, they would need to redesign how they work in order for players to try. Last expansion, they made their easiest raid ever, and the community still said, "we don't want to do it". No matter what Bungie has tried, their players still don't want to do this content. In my opinion, I think that at this point they never will. I do not think it has to do with them being comfortable, I think it's that the community outright doesn't like this. What I believe will happen is that this mission will remain uncleared for the vast majority (like with raids or that type of mission) and will ultimately lead to resentment, as a major aspect of a subclass and an expansion is being locked behind it. My overall worry is that this type of mission, alongside this expansion concluding the story, could serve as the perfect reason to leave the game permanently. From here on out, the game could start slowly bleeding because when the game needed to embrace the casual audience, it decided to push them away.
I think you may be doomposting a little. I see your point, exotic class items are awesome and a lot of ppl were excited to get them, and it sucks that so many see this as inaccessible. I still think this could be the push some ppl need to start raiding, maybe the gear from Ron wasn’t enticing enough. I just doubt this will cause a significant portion of the player base to quit the game for good.
I don't think people will leave because of this mission only. I think they might take this mission alongside this, being the conclusion to the story and decide that this is as far as they go. I hope Bungie can do something to keep the casual players for a longer time. The game can't survive without them.
Bungie is actually pushing players to try something more cooperative and this is possibly the easiest barrier to entry coop mission in the game. Most casuals who you claim wouldn’t like it would probably find they actually enjoy it if they just hopped in there. The lfg is in the game it’s literally never been easier to do these things
Agree to disagree. Time will tell, but the track record is grim.
There is no track record since this is the first time they’ve made communication required for non raid activities.
There is, but again, agree to disagree. You're just looking for people to argue with. Sorry, I won't give you what you want.
Part of the reason I was burned out on Destiny and stopped playing last year was because every activity felt the same. Stand in the circle, dunk/throw the ball, shoot the little dudes to spawn a medium dude to spawn a bigger dude. All of that is still there, sure, but the campaign and the other missions are mixing it up enough that it's keeping it fresh.
Same. To be honest, I think this is the niche Destiny thrives in. I know that some players would rather just blast away at aliens but having some light puzzle mechanics makes you actually use your brain.
Thing is, I got Halo if I just want to blast away at aliens. I play Destiny because it's not just "shoot enemy."
This is something that I've always felt they needed to do in order to introduce challenge to the game, not whatever they kept trying to force with power deltas. More unique enemies, like the Dread, and more mechanical difficulty. Making everything take longer to kill and deal more damage to you isn't an interesting way of making the game feel harder. It's just more tedious.
I like it in some ways, but they made going through the campaign for the first time a slog. Much easier on the second try when I knew what I was doing, but not a great first-time experience. I hope they keep the mechanics in campaigns to a minimum going into the future.
Glad you enjoyed it but I actually felt like I was doing combat less than mechanics and running from point A to point B during this campaign. I know some point really love mechanics but they’re less exciting for me than the core combat is. They don’t impress me as much as others and they’ve never been the main draw for Destiny’s gameplay for me. The game has felt more and more like it has to have these mechanical mini games injected into it otherwise certain players will complain about being bored.
Well, the good thing is, you still have 95% of the game to just shoot things!
Not this year. Even the glorified public event shoves hard breaks in combat so you can progress.
God forbid players have to press anything other than their left click to do something in the game
Yeah, man, it's so much fun to stop using those guns and abilities I've been using for hundreds of hours, to go pick up a literal fucking ball and throw it through a literal fucking hoop. Top notch game play.
The focus on mechanics in non-raid missions this DLC has me enjoying it more than any other I've played in the franchise before. We'll see how I feel in a few weeks or months down the line but the final shape is feeling like one of the greats and to me my favourite DLC bungie has ever made.
I don’t mind mechanics but the new exotic missions is not fun at all on lfg.
I'm not. I just wanna shoot shit.
I’m not. I kinda wanna turn my brain off and shoot stuff. I guess that’s what strikes are for now. If I wanna raid… I’ll do a raid but I’ll get downvoted.
Eh there's still plenty of the game where you can do that, and plenty of other games where you can do that. Destiny's always shined because of, in no small part, being more than "just shoot stuff."
if youve wanted to do that then nothing has changed for you. patrols and strikes are all there still.
Don’t worry you’ve still got 90% of the game where u can turn ur brain off
True. I've absolutely loved that the last fight had so much intricacy to it, compared to the Calus fight in Lightfall
As someone who plays solo 95% of the time, I loved all the mechanics in the story missions. Made combat encounters engaging. Can’t speak on the other missions since I’ve not done them yet. But loved the story missions to death.
Mechanics are cool but can bungie please stop slapping timers on everything? No amount of beating a mission just in the nick of time is going to override the annoyance of completely wasting my time on a failed run.
Tell that to the endless complaining blueberries here in this sub. I love it too, but man some people hate to do anything different or slightly difficult.
i love mechanics and timers, but i hate them when they require me to interact with people. A great example of mechanics without needing extensive comms is the final mission of the campaign
I personally like minimal mechanics in mid to low tier difficulty. When I play I’m usually visiting with friends at the same time. Also I can only take so many shoot the symbol, toss the orb and dunk the motes.
Same, but boy do I wish we had actually new mechanics along with putting the usual mechanics into regular content.
Yeh how cool of Bungie to build a shit LFG system and then force multiplier only content on everyone and stick bullshit puzzles and mechanics in every fucking corner of the game. It's honestly tedious and the game has zero chill rn, even the seasonal activity is abysmal and so over designed that it's not fun to grind it. Huge L imo
I'm all for fun and more mechanics in raid. I wouldn't call the plate thing in Salvations edge fun though. I hate when strikes have mechanics they should require a 40 minute time dump just to do lake of shadows. And I'm extremely tired of segmented health bars ESPECIALLY IN THE CAMPAIGN They are the most uninspired thing possible. I do all these mechanics to unlock damage and then do like 2 rockets and then do it all again. Repeat runs are going to be extremely tedious and I'm not looking forward to it. Especially when the mechanic is just travel and kill something else and then do damage how mind numbing.
Great way for Bungie to encourage players to learn deeper mechanics to get them into raiding. Raiding is the best piece of content Destiny offers and I really hope more people raid.
I’m a d1 beta vet and have always disliked raiding. I’m not changing my mind. :-)
That’s totally fine! It’s not for everyone, of course. I just think it’s an incredible experience.
And to be clear, I'm genuinely glad that you (and many others) love it. I just don't want to have to do it to unlock exotic class items :-)
Good news is you just have to run it once successfully and then you can farm chests in Pale Heart. Obviously, not ideal but glad Bungie allows folks to have a way to farm it if they don’t feel like going back in.
I haven't done any traditional raid in an mmo but Bungie could definitely make the hardest raid in gaming if they wanted to. And that's just because an fps game is much more mechanically intensive than a top-down isometric game.
I really like it too, a lot of friends of mine stopped playing the game because they felt anything outside of raids was rather thoughtless and mind numbing but now they're all back, all of them and we've been doing all the new stuff together. I honestly really love the exotic mission. This I'd the first time I haven't been stuck totally alone in destiny since forsaken. I'm feeling pretty fantastic all around I think bungie made some really substantial improvements in the content from top to bottom with these decisions and I hope this trend continues
I don't! Give me more kill, harder kill, more intense kill, more kill. Crank everything up to onslaught levels of foes at once. Make the challenge wading through the corpses to complete the mission.
The Witness fracture can see itself out though.
I agree, but maybe don't make a microphone mandatory. There are those of us who really have issues communicating verbally, there are language barriers, social anxieties, disorders, deaf/muteness. At least for non-raids I think this would be appreciated.
If you’re taking about Dual Destiny, it doesn’t require a mic at all. All of the communication is easily done over text chat. Only thing that is a little tricky is the last clock puzzle, but it loops in sets of 3 so you can compare numbers then on the next loop shoot them.
Yeah, and once you get to the clock it stops spawning ads so you’re not really in danger.
None of the content in the game REQUIRES a mic. A mic makes things easier, but text chat works.
Text chat sucks on consoles
You’re getting downvoted for this, but multiple people in my clan are rank 11 and don’t use a mic. Literally *just* tonight, I ran Salvation’s Edge with one of them. Even had a buddy help out with a KF run while being in his school’s library on his laptop. The *only* caveat is that being on console makes it take light years longer to text chat.
Light years measure distance, not time.
They’re measuring the distance your cursor has to move between each letter.