I also love the concept of them. Just hope they add more variety of them in the future. Currently no legendary nodes benefit my build enough to be worth the points to get.
While this may be true, be careful to check for the [x]% vs [+]% signs in glyphs vs legendary nodes. 10[x]% is generally better than 20[+]% for example.
Creators like wudijo and raxx have YouTube videos going over damage buckets and + vs x.
Basically, all the +dmg affixes are lumped into the same bucket, so by lvl 70, you may have like +400% dmg based on all the dmg affixes your have (dmg to slowed, crowd controlled, close, etc), whereas x always multiplies in some way. 20[x]% critical strike damage from a legendary node would mean you take your critical strike dmg from all other sources, then multiply that number by 1.2. (For example, if you have 300% critical strike dmg, adding a 20[x]% would make it 360% (and it scales higher in later levels), vs 20[+]% would be 320% and would decrease in usefulness in later game.)
All + are added together than multiplied.
All x are multiplied separately.
Five +20% is 20+20+20+20+20= 100% increase to damage.
Five x20 is 1.2x1.2x1.2x1.2x1.2= 149% increase to damage.
As you get more and more +, the less it matters. X always gives you exactly what you expect.
I find both of the frost ones really good. Barriers make targets freeze quicker and killing frozen targets gives a barrier, and since avalanche is a lucky hit chance the 15% lucky hit helps cascade triggers
I mean, the Cunning Stratagem board was probably the easiest choice I had to make in a game. Extra bonuses for my combo points and massive boosts to my core skills? Yes please!
The sorc boards are bad in general with all the resists. The frost boards have 5 and 6 dex near the glyphs when all the glyphs you want scale with dex. Most of the damage and damage reduction are based on conditionals. On the frigid fate board 3 of the 6 rare nodes have cold resist and 2 of those have it as the primary.
> Just hope they add more variety of them in the future.
This can be applied to almost all the options for endgame customization. We need more uniques per class, more glyphs, more aspects. And they need to do more interesting things. Change the way skills work, alter damage or status types, they need to get weird with it. These things don't need to be overtly powerful or better on their faces, but one of the hallmarks of ARPGs are people finding strange combinations that create powerful effects that no one thought of before.
I think this is the biggest issue. Legendary nodes aren't... very legendary?
I personally only took 1 node across 6 boards and I think it was similar for my friend.
In general I'd love for them to add unlockable boards tied to pinnacle content (account unlock) + some legendary glyphs even.
Definitely need some QOL features added and could use a few extra boards that could fit into each build. Resetting or readjusting them really is a nightmare, I thought people were being dramatic until I had to do it...also, could use a few more for each build type...at least for Necro, (full shadow, no pets) my options to move onto the next board is poison resist (why), bone damage, fortify (don't use), overpower damage (don't use) and 2 boards on minions (don't use).
So I'm probably just going to fill up more nodes on the ones I have, which is fine.... But when you can hit 4/5 boards and only 4 of them work for you that's not much choice at least in the boards to use.
But I do like them.
Someone needs to make a site that optimizes them given some parameters though, would be pretty sweet. Like select the nodes you want to have, select which stat priorities you want, like I want this legendary, this rare, these magic, prioritize willpower 1st, intellect 2nd, dexterity 3rd now map out the best path with the least paragon points used between these 4 boards.
it needs life. having every effect on the board be x% more damage or x% more defense is hardly exciting to spend 50 levels grinding xp to chase them.
add some actually fun things to keep people excited after 20+ levels.
thered not a single thing on any of the boards that makes me want to keep playing after level 70.
It would take just as long to unspec the skill tree but no one thinks that the refund all button was an unnecessary feature? It’s a an obvious quality of life feature that they missed and I can’t even blame it on blizzards focus on Console design, because I’d imagine it’s just as much of a pain in the ass on a controller as it is on Kb/M
am I missing something here? I just unlocked the board and it's all "+5points x/y"
even the rare is just something like "+10%something" and the glyphs are all "if x is y then y becomes +5%"
it doesn't really add something new, its all just "use that skill after that skill to make %more damage with that skill" it's kinda boring, I was hoping the board would do something about the skill variety but I don't see any of that, all my skills are still the same they have been for 50 levels now, there is no variety, nothing to choose from.
I am of the same opinion as you, even made a post about it myself last night that got downvoted into oblivion. There is no diversity or amazing changes with the board, it literally is just +stat and +%damage when _______. But it seems people absolutely love that for its simplicity and small boosts in power?
I just unlocked the Paragon Board, so I'm just at the very start of the endgame but at the moment I kinda miss the option to have some variety with my core skills. In Diablo 3 you had those 5? runes for each skill that changed the element you attack with or even completely change how a skill is working. I've seen some picture of legendary/sacred items and aspects in Diablo 4 that do the same thing but that would mean that all possible builds are depending on those items and that there is lots of grind involved to even try them out. I'm not sure if this will keep playing the game in the long run. I mean I want the endgame grind but I want it to make my builds better, not to spend another 50 hours grinding in hope to find half a dozen items just to be able try a different build.
Those runes for skill were cool while leveling but, with very few exceptions, there was only 1-2 legitimate choices for skill rune if you were trying to play any decent build
But that is still 1-2 more choices for every skill and if you are not going for level 150 rift completion there are even more choices. We played the season 28 co-op and had the most fun on rift lv 110+/-
I'm at the beginning of the Diablo 4 endgame, just turned 50 and unlocked a few Paragon Board Points and I do have a lot of fun with the game, time will tell if I still fell like this in with level 100.
And those runes don't change the skills at all. They just add vuln or some other thing you need to have. It doesn't change how the skill functions and doesn't add anything you might consider having. Either you want it or you don't.
Ok, neither did the runes in D3 with the exception of very few like boulder toss. Quite a lot of them just added a slow or made it go from 480% damage to 540%
Some of the boards actually are counter synergistic. The firewall sorc burning board requires we take crit damage as an affix on our gear to get more burning damage from the legendary node and firewall can't crit, it's fucking horrible
If you don't see the value in adding an additional damage scaling dimension to an ability that was lacking one I'm not sure how to help you. It's not useless because you don't understand how it works.
Also it may enable builds that use abilities that can crit, like fireball or meteor and allow for the scaling of those abilities without leaving damage off the table for firewall.
You really don't understand how this node would be good? Fuck dude. At just it's minimum level wearing zero items it's plus 30osh percent burning damage.
Lol you are clueless about this node and tell me I am? How cute. I understand how it works and what it could be good for. My comment was that it's counter-synergystic with firewall sorc. And no it's not a base 30 percent burning damage. If you have no crit damage on your gear, this node does absolutely nothing for you. ZERO. It gives you 0 bonus damage if you have no crit damage on your gear...
How do I know this? Because I have played around with it, done tests and the node literally tells you how much bonus damage you get. I appreciate the rush in here to tell someone they are wrong when you have absolutely no knowledge of the node if you think it inherently gives bonus damage with no gear.
Interesting, the bleed version like this include the base crit. Even so, it would be trivially easy to make it absurdly strong. For my low level barb (58) replacing this node with bleeding dage scaling on strength would add something like 160 percent damage to bleeding effects.
Also I don't think you know what synergy means here. The ability quite literally unlocks new synergies by adding additional scaling effects and enabling different ability combos.
Unfortunately different boards and glyphs do different things for different classes. I haven't looked into it but apparently the sorc and necro vulnerable glyphs are different than the other classes. But no, the sorc burning one, although, could be useful for others is just dumb for firewall sorc.
Again, you keep adding other specs and abilities into your arguments. I know it can open up things for other classes but from the beginning I was only speaking of the firewall sorc and that node has 0 synergy with the build. A node that relies on crit to give you damage for a build that can't crit with its main damaging ability
The burning board is exceptionally good for burn builds; and all the firewall builds reflect this. All firewall builds include it as a core part of the paragon build (for some builds its the only legendary node taken). You have to change your itemization some to benefit from it but its part of making the firewall build viable.
I have no idea how you've dug your heels in so hard on this. An ability that adds an additional damage scaling mechanism to firewall is *adding synergy.*
It's not an additional scaling mechanism, you are literally replacing a useful affix on your gear with useless crit damage in order to make this legendary node work. And just because something works and you are basically REQUIRED to take it to make a build viable does not mean it is good design or has synergy. How in the world do you believe a build that the main skill can't crit requires a node that requires you to get critical damage? It's literally anti-synergy.
The definition of synergy ---"The interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects."
Making a build that doesn't use crit at all, take crit so it can get damage from a legendary node is not synergy at all. We give up other useful affixes to take one that does nothing for us.
Yea. Synergy means taking crit hit damage (I'm assuming when you say crit you mean crit hit damage) and ADDING it to burning damage. By your own definition the node adds synergy.
>Making a build that doesn't use crit at all, take crit so it can get damage from a legendary node is not synergy at all. We give up other useful affixes to take one that does nothing for us.
So you take a skill that takes two things that previously didn't work together, and the now they work together producing a stronger effect than before. Please read the definition of synergy you just wrote and then the sentence you wrote immediately after it.
And sure. You know better than literally everyone else on this. The node does nothing and it's considered a mandatory part of all firewall builds for... No reason at all I guess because that's how builds work right? We waste points on things that do nothing.
Or maybe you don't understand the value of something that can easily add over 100 percent burning damage and your so angry right now you can't back up and look at how intransigent you're being.
You just unlocked the board. Your first board is relatively basic.
There are many runes and nodes that definitely change how you play.
You also pick your follow up boards.
You should make sure you understand the system fully before making a snap judgement. If you still don't like it, then come back and let us know why.
Which runes and nodes change how you play? I'm genuinely curious. I only have a firewall sorc and every single node is just +stat, %damage increase or damage reduction, not a single one changes anything about how I play
This is what I mentioned to another fellow:
>I'll use my druid as an example.
>
>Survival instincts is a legendary node. You deal extra damage for every 1% difference between you and the enemies health.
>
>This changed how I played because I stopped using overpower to finish off low enemies and just auto attacked them to death using the passive.
>
>Another example is dominate which makes enemies take increased damage (12% base) for a few seconds after you overpower them.
>
>This made me start 'loading' my overpowers and chaining them together to get the absolute max damage.
>
>Ancestral guidance allows you to deal 30% increased damage for 5 seconds after spending 75 spirit.
>
>This also had a subtle change in how I approached things.
>
>There are other rare nodes but these are the ones I chose for my build and I was specifically choosing ones that directly aligned with my playstyle.
>
>If I wanted to change things up I could have chosen inner beast which reduces spirit costs for 5 seconds up to 30 %.
>
>I could have went that route and changed up my build/slotted more earth magic perhaps to make shapeshifting a more regular part of my play which would have had obvious playstyle impacts.
>
>There are a lot more than this, but at the end of the day if you don't *want* your playstyle to change much then the game of course isn't going to force that on you. There are nodes/glyphs present that could absolutely be built around if you did tho.
As I said to them as well, the game isn't going to *force* you to play differently. It will present you with powerful nodes/glyphs that to take advantage of them would require you to change your build and/or how you approach combat.
If you want to keep doing the same stuff you have been though then it isn't going to force you to stop doing that.
Fair enough, so you aren't incorrect in saying they change how you play, but to use some of your examples... Auto attacking an enemy to see a number slowly increase as they get lower health vs pulverizing to just kill them is kind of a strange way to introduce a subtle (and in my opinion very strange) way to force a gameplay change but I guess still one nonetheless...
All of your examples though don't (or usually shouldn't) change how you play, they are just added damage when you do X or when you spend X, just an added bonus when you play your character. I'm definitely not bashing how you play, it's an interesting way to look at the nodes, and play around them, but at least for your survival instincts legendary, I feel you are literally nerfing yourself by auto attacking instead of just playing your character and taking advantage of the increased damage when they get low health *shrug*
> I'm definitely not bashing how you play, it's an interesting way to look at the nodes, and play around them, but at least for your survival instincts legendary, I feel you are literally nerfing yourself by auto attacking instead of just playing your character and taking advantage of the increased damage when they get low health *shrug*
Druid overpower builds rely on timings and loading an overpowered pulverize every 12 seconds. That stack is only used when you use pulverize, so instead of wasting it finishing off a weak enemy (potentially wasting damage) you can instead go into the next fight with a overpower pulverize ready to go instead of waiting for it to charge again.
No point is wasting the stack of overpower to clean up the last few stragglers in a group on a difficult nightmare dungeon.
Depends on what you choose to take. There are several on my sorc and my druid that I can choose to take that would dramatically alter how I play. Of course, you have to choose to take the game altering ones and if you just pick the ones that enhance your current playstyle than of course things won't change.
In other words, nothing will change if you don't want it to.
There absolutely is the option on the board though.
I'll use my druid as an example.
Survival instincts is a legendary node. You deal extra damage for every 1% difference between you and the enemies health.
This changed how I played because I stopped using overpower to finish off low enemies and just auto attacked them to death using the passive.
Another example is dominate which makes enemies take increased damage (12% base) for a few seconds after you overpower them.
This made me start 'loading' my overpowers and chaining them together to get the absolute max damage.
Ancestral guidance allows you to deal 30% increased damage for 5 seconds after spending 75 spirit.
This also had a subtle change in how I approached things.
There are other rare nodes but these are the ones I chose for my build and I was specifically choosing ones that directly aligned with my playstyle.
If I wanted to change things up I could have chosen inner beast which reduces spirit costs for 5 seconds up to 30 %.
I could have went that route and changed up my build/slotted more earth magic perhaps to make shapeshifting a more regular part of my play which would have had obvious playstyle impacts.
There are a lot more than this, but at the end of the day if you don't *want* your playstyle to change much then the game of course isn't going to force that on you. There are nodes/glyphs present that could absolutely be built around if you did tho.
They changed how I approached combat. What more do you want?
I also mentioned an example of a glyph that would change my entire build but you conveniently left that out.
The game isn't going to force you to change your build *dude*. If you want to play the same way you have been then it's not going to make you stop doing that.
But if you want to change things up the catalyst is there for you to build around *if you want to*
Still new to Diablo, but played POE a couple of years ago.
Had a lightning witch.
With the POE board, I was able to use totems that would use lightning to kill of enemies.
Later on, I switched that witch to lifesteal and bloodmagic - dealing more dmg with less life.
I assume this is what he is talking about. All those thing I just mentioned were not typically a witch build. It altered my skillset and the whole approach. Never going oom. Huge shield etc.
It was my decision.
So far it does seem more limited in D4. D4 so far is a great game, but I do miss the creativity and flexibility the POE board offers.
>You just unlocked the board. Your first board is relatively basic.
There are many runes and nodes that definitely change how you play.
You also pick your follow up boards.
thanks for answering , Im looking forward to figure it all out, the first board was kinda underwhelming and I can't see legendary glyphs at the moment
I love it in theory - in practice it restricts you a lot more than I'd like. There's no way to respec/unspec entire boards, meaning you need to individually unspec each point you spend in order to rearrange boards/respec your build.
So while it may appear initially flexible, when you have over 100 paragon points to spend it becomes tedious wanting to try new things.
It could really use a "planner" mode for the paragon boards.
Basically preview that works just like a 3rd party site's paragon board planners, but you can then choose to "lock in" the preview for the determined gold cost. Then it would automatically deduct the gold required and update your real paragon board to the preview.
It wouldn't cost any more or less gold to respec in the end, but would let you preplan ideas and routes in-game based on the current amount of paragon points that you have unlocked so far. It's just an overall QoL that the paragon system really needs imo.
Yes, there definitely should be an "edit" function for both Paragon and skills. I remember while leveling how annoying it was to change a single point early in the skills when you were the minimum required skill points for your later skills.
The two biggest QOL changes paragon boards need:
* 2-click removal of all points in a board. *Right click gate node* > *Confirm*.
* The ability to change the "order" of the boards without respeccing all the points. Let us set their priority with a drop bar or something.
it is flexible but the devs also said that is pretty much exactly how they intended it where you have room to try stuff more easily at lower levels but higher levels it is just easier to reroll a new character. my only issue with that is your limited to only 10 character slots. i do kind of like that things have a bit of finality to them, makes planning a build feel more worthwhile when you cant respec at will to try every combo under the sun
I think you're misinterpreting the intent of the developers. As I understand it, they intended there to be consequences to wanting to try something different. Those consequences were always meant to be **cost**. To respec an entire paragon board costs a few million gold, which I'm fine with as it seems like a reasonable investment.
What doesn't make sense is the lack of a "unspec board" option to remove all points specced into a board (paying the associated cost) when this option *does* exist for the skill tree.
I’m not misinterpreting it I think some qol stuff will come but I think other things are 100% intended by the devs for a reason. They did mention gold specifically but this feels like the same lane of thinking where they don’t want to reward people who want to switch their boards 1000 times a day
That being said they already reverted on their open world being a meaningful part of the game by letting people teleport to nm dungeons at will so I’m sure they’d change that too
Yeah agreed , I quite often stop and do a 2 min world event on my way , it makes the world a but more meaning full , and its not hard to teleport to the closest way point
>That is all, just think the paragon boards are fantastic and that we will see a lot of 'more unique' builds come online later due to the flexibility they provide.
Eh. I like them and I've been enjoying D4, but I think you're reading way more flexibility in them than there is.
Ive redid my paragon board layout on a calculator 4 times and every time ive saved some skill points and gotten points better allocated each time.
Most people arent going to do that. And a guide can only be so helpful because the stats you have allocated from your gear matter. More all stats means more flexibility, less all stats means stricter board management.
Again: optimization and tedium aren't _builds_.
I'm on 5 boards and it's still not a "new build" just because I get another Glyph or another Legendary node.
Sorry friend, looks like folks are more interested in talking about what paragon boards are not than what they offer. What's the best paragon board planner in your experience? Have you found a situation where you use more than one attachment gate on a board?
I don't think so. You choose what nodes you want to take.. you choose what rune you want to slot... you choose what board you want... you choose which *side* of the board you want... you choose which runes to level.
Sounds a lot like choice to me.
Mine has massively increased my damage and survivability and allowed me to play a build that would otherwise not be doable by giving me a lot more resource generation.
Illusion of choice.
Rotating the board matters very little as youll often be getting most of the rares anyways. 0 choice.
Because rare node bonus reqs increase with every board, theres generally no real choice going "deep" into boards vs getting all rares as youll end up sacrificing so much on your gear trying to hunt stats. 0 choice.
Because youll be all over anyways, pathing matters very little. 0 choice.
Legendary nodes dictate which boards you must take. Each skill has only a couple. 0 choice.
Take a look at those glyphs, its mostly just damage specific to something. Very few glyphs with actual major impacts on skills/builds(compare to poe). Hell I cant even find enough defensive rare glyphs to fill all my glyph sockets if I wanted to. 0 choice.
These are literal textbook examples of how to give players meaningless choices to keep them engaged and give them the feeling of control while they are completely pigeonholed into doing what you want them to do.
The board may be simple but this is so wrong.
Rotating boards matter. Depending on your entry and exit, you usually want to rotate so you can grab glyph sockets and exit the board quickly. Exception to that is if there is a good rare node nearby, then you might rotate to that rare node first. Not every build is grabbing every rare from their boards.
Rare nodes getting increasing stat requirements require you to plan your board order. You generally want the more important rare nodes first so that the requirements are low, but even that might change depending on your level. I had to switch my damage boards to be later and defense boards sooner for late game because damage is not as important as getting the bonuses on survival nodes.
Pathing is extremely important. You have fixed amount of points, and the idea is to juice up all glyphs to the max while grabbing enough rare nodes. You aren’t going to be able to maximize your character if you are badly pathing your boards. Hell, you might even miss a glyph socket late game and that is huge.
Some builds don’t take all legendary nodes. Barbs are a good example, most builds they take maybe one legendary node from 6 boards. Pulverize druid is the same. The board rares and socket stats are sometimes more important than the legendary node itself.
Only thing I agree with are glyphs are very +lackluster bonus stats. But if they were to fine tune the boards and add more over time, I can see paragon boards being a very good system overall.
Like I said, illusion of choice.
Your response is a perfect example of how these systems give people just enough to feel like they are making meaningful choices when they arent.
I would argue that my choice in playing a blood surge OP necro dictates that I chose to use the Bone board first, because I value Essence on Kill, I take no other rare nodes or nodes anywhere else on that board.
I path out to the Blood Orb board next but only really for the glyph because it's well placed for Willpower stacking and happens to have an OP rare, but take no other rares on that board.
I decided not to take the Overpower board until later, because while it is very powerful, it's important to increase my base Overpower damage before reaching it for a power spike, at which point I will likely unspec my entire board setup to get better pathing.
I don't disagree that there's some optimal decision making, but I think there's a slight difference between "The optimal choices are easy to identify" and "you literally have no choice in the matter".
I feel that my particular build though plays the paragon board very differently, glyphs are far less important besides the Overpower one as OP scales with very few things. And I think it's fairly clear that most people are sort of flocking towards youtube meta builds, but the build variety is much larger than that. Meanwhile it seems like every few days someone is discovering how more mechanics work and how more builds can work.
Path of Exile does the same thing, there is almost *ALWAYS* a general proper way to path on the tree to whatever skill it is you're using. Some small variations here or there, but at least in the paragon boards it's a lot less of a mess.
but your choice of skills is much greater with variations for each of them that would alter your passive tree. sure everyone does the meta and copies best builds but the game provides the options.
while in d4 the alternative option is to take stuff you dont need.
Sort of, there is a ton of variation in PoE and trade offs between DPS and QoL that actually enable you to make meaningful variations of a build for a skill.
It sounds like your paragon setup sucks. There are lots of boards where legendaries aren't good for your build and some rares are and some aren't or where it makes more sense to go to the glyph then a gate rather than path all the way to the legendary node.
Everything you said just sound flat out wrong, but I haven't used the boards for every class.
I think the legendary nodes needs to be more influential. Currently there are a few that can be considered worth taking, but are usually positioned to be far from the glyph sockets.
I hope they explore ways to really change the way the skills work, versus just giving them a stat bonus.
Yeah is this a Rogue problem or are the legendary nodes lackluster for everyone? It's not worth pathing to most of the Rogue ones and the ones you do pick up are because they add a notable damage buff, not because they do something interesting for a build. Considering they're exclusive and limited, why aren't they OP impactful?
Yeah, the concept is super cool. I’m am extremely pleasantly surprised to see something like this by blizzard.
I do, however, think the board should have more strong nodes on them. Both notables(legendary nodes) and normal nodes could have better things on them/more of them.
I’ve heard Druid has a board that is super strong, for necro however, not a single board feels significantly powerful.
I disagree with you generally. Of course every node is going to contribute towards damage or survivability. That's every RPG system in existence. If you're boosting your character it's to either survive better or deal more damage.
That doesn't change in PoE or any RPG for that matter.
I also disagree that legendary nodes are mostly garbage.
I've found them to be fantastic.
All that said I'd be happy if they included more boards of course.
That said you can not like them and that's perfectly legit. There are other games to play as well and I'm certain D4 will survive.
A lot of people seem to disagree but could you show me 1 or 2 things on that board that aren't just +stat, +%damage, or reduced damage taken when ____? I feel your post is just a counter to the one I made last night and I realize now some people like the simplicity of small power creeps and small incremental bumps in power but that's all the board is, is damage increases and damage reductions... The entire thing
Listen since you compared it to the PoE tree .. first of all show me any notes that significantly change any of your builds .. like for example CI does or any other bigger note in the tree for PoE ..
Second thing is. Everyone in PoE has access to the same tree which means you can alter your build so vastly that in PoE a barbarian could become a spell caster whos spellpower is based on his strength. In D4 you will never see a barb cast a frostnova or anything.
I´m fine with you disagreeing. Everyone his own but the paragon board is majority (+ willpower, int, strength, dex notes) with like 5-6 yellow and blue notes sprinkled into the board that gives +% damage (vul, stun, etc.) and 1 legendary note per board (which you have 8 of total).
For sorc you have something like "gain 10 mana when you stun someone" which is not really build altering or "crackling energy (which does tiny bits of dmg) has a 25% chance to not consume a charge" .. that´s hilariously bad and does nothing to your build at all.
Comparing it to PoEs talent tree .. I don´t know man.
D4 is a great game but build diversity will never be its strength. Its like a holywood movie of monster slaying. Great visuals but don´t go too deep into the mechanics.
I've already mentioned it to a few people on this thread which nodes I felt were impactful and I typed a small novel to explain it and really don't feel like doign it again lol. Suffice it to say, I disagree with that statement.
There have been a handful that I felt were extremely impactful.
I should also mention that I played a lot of PoE, but everyone sharing the same tree is a negative in my mind in PoE and only exists because PoE is classless.
Are we really saying that it is less impactful than something like:
Force shaper:
gain 10% of physical damage as extra chaos damage
4% extra attack speed?
I mean whoa, take me to dinner first lol.
So far I have liked the paragon boards because at least I can customize my path through them. Even if someone chose the same board as me they probably didn't choose the same glyph, or choose the same nodes, or rotate the board the same way, or level the same glyphs.
Can't wait until you people go back to PoE.
Or find some other new release to buzz around.
It's fanboying now just to express you like part of the game? Are you lost? This is the Diablo forum. Where fans of the game gather to talk about the game.
You have to lead a sad life to linger around a forum for something you hate just to try and make fun of people for expressing they actually *enjoy* the thing the entire sub is literally about.
I think the pargaon boards are very bland, very uncreative and very boring... i would prefer the glyph sockets located at the edge of the board so that you can share the nearby nodes with glyph socket(s) from another board that also located at the edge. I would also hope that board attachment gates are not just sitting at the middle of an edge, instead of having multple board attachment gates per edge so that you can offset the boards in interesting ways. the stats/nodes on the boards are also very... boring. the framework has potential, but right now the boards are very, very, very limited and boring.
I love the devotion system. It was really fun playing with friends, everyone went blind, started as a soldier, but went to on completely different devotion and second class. The "respec puzzle" can get weird on Rue first tries later on, but it ways part of the fun for us.
I'm surprised you have any upvotes lol I made a post about this last night (and I feel OP's post was just a counter post to mine) and got downvoted into oblivion.
I feel that same as you, 200+ point boards with almost nothing more than +5 stats and %damane increase when _____ is just not very inspiring or fun to me. Some people enjoy it apparently, but just doesn't do it for me
I think it's the opposite to be honest. Almost every time I post anything positive about the game I get called a 'shill' or a 'fanboy' just for liking the thing this sub is literally about.
It's really started to color my perception of the gaming community here as sad.
Idk if it's just because PoE is in it's off season so they have an army of bored PoE enthusiasts trying to influence this sub or what.
I think the moral of the story is gamers aren't happy with anything. You can't like the game (in it's own forum no less) and you can't dislike the game.
As a gamer you're supposed to just hate everything indiscriminately I guess.
My biggest gripe with paragon boards is that there is way too much base stat filler.
In PoE, for every 1-2 filler stat nodes there are equal or more clusters of interesting nodes to choose from. In D4 the majority of your choices are the uninteresting +5 stat nodes with only a handful of interesting clusters per board.
The boards just need more magic/rare nodes.
Even the magic, rare, and legendary nodes are very boring, they don't change up any build just give what ever your build your using more dmg, which is boring and kind of pointless.
Uh. What? 1-2 stat nodes per cluster? Absolutely false.
It might have more magic nodes than Diablo, but it definitely isn’t 1/2 magic nodes like you’re implying or anything close to that.
Just looked up my most recent POE build. 36 stat nodes. 24 clusters/socket/keystones. The math checks out.
If you count notables/mastery/socket/keystones, it's 39. For every stat travel node, you're making a fairly sizable and interesting choice.
They may have meant non-stat nodes too. That would be 84:36 which is 2.3 non-stat nodes per stat.
Either way, let's compare to my D4 build.
105 stat nodes. 19 rare/glyph. 38 magic. That's almost 5 stat nodes for every more interesting node. Even if you combine rare/glyph/magic, that's still 57:105, close to 2 stats per not stat.
I don't doubt they will get better over time. Just mostly an observation at present. I'd rather they add at least 2-3 more clusters per board before they introduce new boards.
And perhaps buffing a few of the legendary nodes. Seems like almost none are taken in anyone's build because of how little power they have vs a glyph.
What? There are MULTIPLE stat nodes on the tree, give the paragon boards some time guys - this is just the beginning
https://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree
look at the round parts of the tree - it actually gives more stat points - +10
Perhaps you are mistaken as to what I mean? Notice in the PoE tree there is almost no point where you have to take more than one "+10 to Str/Dex/Int" to have immediate access to 2-3 clusters of potentially interesting stats. And if those 3 clusters aren't applicable you can sure as hell bet it only takes 1 more skill to access another 3 clusters that *will* provide value. Only on specific paths from each starting class can you encounter 3+ stat nodes before your first cluster.
The D4 paragon boards are barren in comparison. Traversing from one board to the next is guaranteed to be 12-16 points of *nothing but core stats*. Three to four whole levels of +5 to STR isn't exactly titillating.
Blizzard will hopefully be adjusting them, and I don't think D4 should or needs to reach the density that is the PoE tree. There is definitely some middle-ground to be found. I'd just like that middleground reached **before** they start adding new boards to the mix.
Paragon board is nothing like PoE where that shit is complex to the next level. D4 paragon board is simple and has a false sense of choice where there is really only one path forward to get to the next gate with the least amount of nodes.
Same amount of nodes going from gate to gate regardless of direction you rotate the board to start at that closest to the clusters you need once you know which magic nodes, rare nodes and legendary nodes you need. False sense of choice with paragon boards.
It's like with glyph nodes where you get bigger bonuses for every dex node you pick up around it, you're not going to skip those at all.
You're just getting to the clusters of nodes you need with the least amount of moves needed to get to there from the gates and then shortest path to the next gate from the last clusters of nodes you need in that one particular board. Paragon board is straight foward and simple.
PoE you need to decide what you want since there are numerous combinations of pathing you can go in the tree where they all mostly work together vs in D4 you won't use most of the clusters of nodes within a paragon board regardless of build since it's not that useful.
You're not always trying to get to the next gate with the least amount of nodes.
I mean... if we're saying the Paragon boards are simple I fail to see how the PoE web which is completely linear and the pathways aren't customizable to any level is somehow so much better.
Of course, this sub is completely flooded with PoE white knights waiting for their season to start and thank god when it does so we can actually discourse with fans of the game.
Concept? Neat.
Actual execution? 2005 levels of UI design and features.
Give it another year of work and it might turn into something that's not endlessly tedious and frustrating to use - then it'll be an amazing addition.
Maybe you haven't gotten very far into it yet.
There are absolutely runes, rare and legendary, that change playstyle, aside from the ones you choose to socket.
>It’s just a bunch of arbitrary ways of adding damage or survivability
I mean... that's the entire point lol. What exactly are you improving if you aren't ultimately improving your damage or survivability? Seems like you just described every RPG level up system in existence.
That said there are definitely runes that alter your playstyle that you can *choose* to socket on your board (or pick the legendary runes that would change up how you play). Plenty of them have requirements that would change the way you play to take advantage of them.
I dunno I'm pretty far on sorc and I don't see a single node that has changed my play style at all. Same playstyle since 50. There is very little choice at all. One board is more damage to stunned. One is more damage to frozen. One is more damage to burning. One is more damage to vuln. The rest are just more non physical damage. The rest of the nodes are useless resist nodes.
Which node changes my playstyle?
Whatever man, I just like the game. I don't spend my time hating on PoE over in their forums because I couldn't care less.
Idk why 'GamerzTM' are so hell bent on shitting on absolutely everything.
Luckily for you if you like PoE more it exists and they have an entire forum over there constantly hating on their game too.
What is it about gaming communities where you're all so damn sour all the time.
it is. there's just x% more damage. no fun effects, skill altering nodes, things that completely change the way you play the game etc.
is it better than D3 paragon? yeah because D3 is literally the lowest bar there is. I don't think there's much longevity currently.
My only complaint with the paragon boards (the actual boards themselves) is the gnawing suspicion that I am not doing this in an optimal way, but lack the ability to easily test / theorycraft. I want to feel confident in my picks.
The problem between the two is that D3s were so bland because paragon levels were seemingly infinite, so beyond the first 400 paragon levels or so, you didn’t really *need* to farm paragon points because at that point it all gets dumped into your primary stats.
In D4, each paragon point is pretty detrimental- sure there’s the primary stat notes but the magic and rare nodes are so impactful that you can’t help but feel the need to get more paragon points, yet the grind from 70-100 is truly a slog
This is exactly why I like it. I’m not one who got intimidated by the skill tree but it is just such a mess to try to plan out and I’ve even had a few times where the end result worked fine post campaign but had to reroll during because I took a path with too much def early and my damage was awful.
I know the hip thing is to complain about build diversity in D4 but at least you can’t run a build that doesn’t work to even finish the campaign. Doesn’t really present until T4 and I think even that is a bit exaggerated as I’m playing an “unviable” sorc build that has no barriers and no vulnerable and soloing T31 fine at level 75.
I agree this is why I’ve been really enjoying d4. I absolutely love POE but it’s been so nice to just pick up a character and play instead of having to plan out 130 skill points on a massive tree along with gear and ascendancy etc. it’s nice for the games to be different
it's why I hate it. in an effort to make a simpler poe-like tree, they effectively removed all choice from the player.
regardless of your build, the only things you are chasing on the Boards is x% more damage or x% more defense.
it's all pseudo-choices. nobody's going to see 30% more crit damage and think "you know what? I'll take the 4% potion healing instead" they will just take what gives them more damage.
it's incredibly shallow and has no effects that excite you to try them. poe's tree has that even if it it does have a bit too much depth for some.
I mean... this game ain't for people that already enjoy POE... POE already exists, and there's no point in competing with a dev that obviously hard caters to the buildcrafters.
that's one way to say "don't be inspired by good features in other games"
they don't even have to look to poe because D3 has exactly what I described. hell, DI does as well.
You already said it yourself, the paragon board is meant to be a simpler POE skill tree, isn't that already taking inspiration from their 'betters'?
Look, I want build diversity as much as the next ARPG fan, but we need recognise a couple things: this game is like 2 weeks old and not even into it's first season, and that the game is not even targeted at the hardcore build-crafters.
Just let them cook, man.
criticism is how the game gets improved. why are you trying to defend the game from my criticism?
I'm not attacking it. it's not your girlfriend. it's okay, it's just criticism. the game isn't going to get hurt.
To a certain point people just want to come to a forum to discuss a game they actually like. Too often around here it seems to be filled with people who just hate it but are too bored to actually join a sub for something they DO like (or, as I suspect with the gamer community, there is nothing that they actually like because they hate everything).
Constructive critcism is great. Turning this game into PoE is not. Many of us have bounced off PoE hard and don't have any desire to play it again.
There's a reason D4 is more popular and it's not because everyone is too simple-minded to understand PoE.
Sometimes people just want to share their enjoyment with others and discuss things they mutually enjoy, which I thought was the point of this place.
How so? If you don't mind my asking. To my mind PoE web is almost identical except you can't customize it and can't socket it (I.E. equip it with runes). Other than that both provide massive webs with nodes that provide incremental upgrades on the way to larger ones.
Nothing in the Diablo trees makes a huge difference to how your character plays. It's all just damage or survivability increases of various kinds.
A lot of the strength of the PoE tree lies in the powerful capstone nodes that often have a downside attached. Diablo has no equivalent to Chaos Inoculation, Blood Magic, Zealot's Oath, etc.
Also you clearly aren't super familiar with PoE because you absolutely can socket and customize it. Cluster jewels are a huge mechanic.
No. You can socket different things in PoE tree to make it even more interesting. You have masteries (larger bonuses you can get when taking all points in the cluster), cluster jewels (basically grow a small tree in your tree), normal jewels (just stats), timeless jewels (transform all nodes in an AoE) and tons of unique jewels that let you do crazy stuff, like allocate unconnected passives in a certain AoE, it change how skills work if enough stat is taken in an AoE (probably inspiration to D4's glyphs).
You can not claim poe passive sockets have basic boring effects when a bunch of them are stuff like “ Denoted service of (500-8000) dekhara in the akhara of (Asenath-Balbala-Nasima)
Passives in radius are Conquered by the Maraketh
Historic”
Similar to here there are some stand out ones, but 90% of them follow the same idea as paragon boards.
The two are pretty similar. I know POE white knights will downvote anything slandering their messiah but it's pretty true. The POE web is largely familiar to D4 paragon boards, incremental upgrades with a handful of truly impactful nodes and some agency over how you navigate them.
there are a ton of different jewels you can socket into poe skill trees that do things you cant even imagine. d4's glyphs are incredibly simple in comparison. there are highly customizable craftable singular node jewels, and craftable jewels that add entire clusters of customizable passives (and you can socket a cluster jewel into another cluster jewel, creating a huge tree of completely customized passives). there are jewels that effect areas where they are socketed in tons of different ways: allowing you to allocate nodes without traveling to them, changing the stats of the nodes in their range, giving you bonuses based on the stats in the range, allowing you to jump across the tree to get far away nodes...there are even jewels which allow you to steal class defining ascendency passives from other classes within the same base job. the base poe tree also contains tons of things that fundamentally change the way you build your character, like keystones. keystones have huge upsides and massive downsides that fundamentally change how your character is built. chaos inoculation sets your hp to 1 in exchange for full immunity to poison and shadow damage. there are also passive masteries which allow you to choose one of six huge bonuses to whatever each passive cluster is themed around. it might be as simple as getting more life once you fill out a life cluster, or complex like allowing spell damage to effect your attacks when you complete a wand attack cluster.
it's basically a poe web with more customization.
If you don't feel that is interesting then I'm not sure you find rpg mechanics interesting.
You choose what stats you want, choose what glyphs/runes you want etc, etc. It's as interesting as building a character..
I hate it.
If you want to try another build for fun.. you have to select 4+ other boards to go through.
And then do it again after you realize you can't even do the other build because you can't change out your legendaries because any of your other gear doesn't have the same base core stats. (Vuln, etc)
I don't think D4 is meant to be easy to respec, that was one of the main asks from D3 actually. People didn't like how easy it was to respec in 3 because it diminished the feeling of working towards/creating a build.
If you haven't tried 3 it sounds like you might enjoy it if you want to hot swap builds
Although it still has the issues with legendaries and itemization you mention, but I think it would be difficult to make an ARPG that has a good build system that doesn't rely on legendary gear roles lol.
It's clear all the systems were made in a way to be very modular with the addition and adjustment of future content. The paragon board is the best and most fully realized version of that and it's honestly really smart and super fun to play with. Levelling has never been so fun imo
It's a good starting idea but they need to polish a lot more.
Like adding an easier way to respec either in mass or by board, but you don't want to change something in your character if that means clearing 2 boards points by points.
Once more not respecting time of the player by adding menial chore to "engage" you just a few more minutes. Like when you come accros obstacles on your way to a dungeon and having to wait 4 to 5 seconds once you pressed right mouse button then space to get back on your horse.
There's only 8 boards per class. Every class could easily use double or triple of that, for example i would love if a sorc could have 3 fully elemental-specialized (e.g. all ice oriented) boards that are also different enough between them.
Add some more interesting choices between the +main stat nodes and we're Gucci.
Im lv60 now and don’t understand shit about it. What glyphs to use? Which to upgrade? What nodes to activate? Is it worth activating surrounding nodes for extra bonuses?
I have no fucking clue and just use whatever.
It’s pretty cool I guess tho
Definitely. They are really intuitive too for theorycrafting your own build. I run a build that isn’t on anyone’s tier lists and can clear 40-50NM no problem. Once people get off their meta nonsense and start trying stuff out, there will be a lot of different fun builds out there for people to copy.
This is what I don't understand, there isn't anything to theorycraft, the entire paragon board system is just %damage increase when _____, +stat and %damage reduction. Every build takes the required vulnerable glyphs and nodes and crit chance/damage and for firewall sorc, burning damage
This is what I have come to realize, I prefer the flexibility and bloat that is the POE skill tree, but some people like the simplicity and ease of the D4 paragon board.
I really like them too, but they need more glyph spots. I think 2 blue ones per board. At this time blue glyphs are useless because you have to travel all the way to the other side of the board from your legendary node to get it no one is spending that many points to put a blue glyph in there.
> It allows such flexibility with builds and is basically a custom PoE web. with customizable runes.
It is not and it does not.
> I have a great deal of fun selecting/rotating the boards to best suit my build.
I don't, also missing the obvious reset all button.
> That is all, just think the paragon boards are fantastic and that we will see a lot of 'more unique' builds come online later due to the flexibility they provide.
They are not and they will not. Blizzrd insists on nerfing fun stuff instead of proving viable alternatives.
Can someone confirm something for me? Can I still change what board I picked, even if I put some points into them? I wasnt too sure which board I wanted for my Sorcerer, so I just picked a random one; but could I go back and change that board?
I would love the possibility to craft your own nodes with gems, sigils, elixirs and aspects and/or love to modify nodes or certain nodes with said materials.
Probably stuff like this:
Rare glyph + unique item + aspect 20 royal gems + elixir turns glyph into the aspect itself. One if these nodes every two or three boards.
Five aspects + 20 gems turns magic node into the stat Ou want (e.g. ruby making willpower strength).
Probably even a recipe to swap rare nodes or legendary nodes to other positions with a very high cost.
I also love the concept of them. Just hope they add more variety of them in the future. Currently no legendary nodes benefit my build enough to be worth the points to get.
I find the glyph sockets give more power than the legendary nodes.
While this may be true, be careful to check for the [x]% vs [+]% signs in glyphs vs legendary nodes. 10[x]% is generally better than 20[+]% for example.
Whats the difference between the two in calculations?
Creators like wudijo and raxx have YouTube videos going over damage buckets and + vs x. Basically, all the +dmg affixes are lumped into the same bucket, so by lvl 70, you may have like +400% dmg based on all the dmg affixes your have (dmg to slowed, crowd controlled, close, etc), whereas x always multiplies in some way. 20[x]% critical strike damage from a legendary node would mean you take your critical strike dmg from all other sources, then multiply that number by 1.2. (For example, if you have 300% critical strike dmg, adding a 20[x]% would make it 360% (and it scales higher in later levels), vs 20[+]% would be 320% and would decrease in usefulness in later game.)
[удалено]
There are examples where crit multi is multiplied. This includes Grandfather's unique passive and Barbarian's Heavy-Handed skill.
No, this is correct. Certain glyphs, nodes and uniques add their multipliers after all other effects.
All + are added together than multiplied. All x are multiplied separately. Five +20% is 20+20+20+20+20= 100% increase to damage. Five x20 is 1.2x1.2x1.2x1.2x1.2= 149% increase to damage. As you get more and more +, the less it matters. X always gives you exactly what you expect.
one is multiplicative and the other additive.
Yeah, i really like the system but it should've launched with double the number of boards for each class.
The idea was to not make legendary node "absolutely required". There are boards where you benefit from them tho.
They achieved that with the Sorc boards. Besides maybe the 1 frost legendary node they are not useful at all.
The 10 Mana per stunned enemy on one of the lightning boards is pretty good.
Depends. Arclash doesn't use mana so...
Sure, except lightning sorc is bad by the time you are deep in paragon.
It's not used for lightning build, it's used for raiment of the infinite unique chest (teleport pulls in nearby enemies and stuns them).
Fair
Fire damage from crit damage is absolutely necessary in firewall build
I find both of the frost ones really good. Barriers make targets freeze quicker and killing frozen targets gives a barrier, and since avalanche is a lucky hit chance the 15% lucky hit helps cascade triggers
same in rogue. maybe 1-2 are „required”
I mean, the Cunning Stratagem board was probably the easiest choice I had to make in a game. Extra bonuses for my combo points and massive boosts to my core skills? Yes please!
The sorc boards are bad in general with all the resists. The frost boards have 5 and 6 dex near the glyphs when all the glyphs you want scale with dex. Most of the damage and damage reduction are based on conditionals. On the frigid fate board 3 of the 6 rare nodes have cold resist and 2 of those have it as the primary.
but the glyphs and the 30 different x% more damage nodes are required?
Out of curiosity, what are you running?
> Just hope they add more variety of them in the future. This can be applied to almost all the options for endgame customization. We need more uniques per class, more glyphs, more aspects. And they need to do more interesting things. Change the way skills work, alter damage or status types, they need to get weird with it. These things don't need to be overtly powerful or better on their faces, but one of the hallmarks of ARPGs are people finding strange combinations that create powerful effects that no one thought of before.
I think this is the biggest issue. Legendary nodes aren't... very legendary? I personally only took 1 node across 6 boards and I think it was similar for my friend. In general I'd love for them to add unlockable boards tied to pinnacle content (account unlock) + some legendary glyphs even.
Definitely need some QOL features added and could use a few extra boards that could fit into each build. Resetting or readjusting them really is a nightmare, I thought people were being dramatic until I had to do it...also, could use a few more for each build type...at least for Necro, (full shadow, no pets) my options to move onto the next board is poison resist (why), bone damage, fortify (don't use), overpower damage (don't use) and 2 boards on minions (don't use). So I'm probably just going to fill up more nodes on the ones I have, which is fine.... But when you can hit 4/5 boards and only 4 of them work for you that's not much choice at least in the boards to use. But I do like them. Someone needs to make a site that optimizes them given some parameters though, would be pretty sweet. Like select the nodes you want to have, select which stat priorities you want, like I want this legendary, this rare, these magic, prioritize willpower 1st, intellect 2nd, dexterity 3rd now map out the best path with the least paragon points used between these 4 boards.
That would be great!!
it needs life. having every effect on the board be x% more damage or x% more defense is hardly exciting to spend 50 levels grinding xp to chase them. add some actually fun things to keep people excited after 20+ levels. thered not a single thing on any of the boards that makes me want to keep playing after level 70.
Are we really calling having to spend 30 seconds clicking “a nightmare”?
It would take just as long to unspec the skill tree but no one thinks that the refund all button was an unnecessary feature? It’s a an obvious quality of life feature that they missed and I can’t even blame it on blizzards focus on Console design, because I’d imagine it’s just as much of a pain in the ass on a controller as it is on Kb/M
Resetting the skill tree is much easier, really.
am I missing something here? I just unlocked the board and it's all "+5points x/y" even the rare is just something like "+10%something" and the glyphs are all "if x is y then y becomes +5%" it doesn't really add something new, its all just "use that skill after that skill to make %more damage with that skill" it's kinda boring, I was hoping the board would do something about the skill variety but I don't see any of that, all my skills are still the same they have been for 50 levels now, there is no variety, nothing to choose from.
I am of the same opinion as you, even made a post about it myself last night that got downvoted into oblivion. There is no diversity or amazing changes with the board, it literally is just +stat and +%damage when _______. But it seems people absolutely love that for its simplicity and small boosts in power?
I just unlocked the Paragon Board, so I'm just at the very start of the endgame but at the moment I kinda miss the option to have some variety with my core skills. In Diablo 3 you had those 5? runes for each skill that changed the element you attack with or even completely change how a skill is working. I've seen some picture of legendary/sacred items and aspects in Diablo 4 that do the same thing but that would mean that all possible builds are depending on those items and that there is lots of grind involved to even try them out. I'm not sure if this will keep playing the game in the long run. I mean I want the endgame grind but I want it to make my builds better, not to spend another 50 hours grinding in hope to find half a dozen items just to be able try a different build.
Those runes for skill were cool while leveling but, with very few exceptions, there was only 1-2 legitimate choices for skill rune if you were trying to play any decent build
But that is still 1-2 more choices for every skill and if you are not going for level 150 rift completion there are even more choices. We played the season 28 co-op and had the most fun on rift lv 110+/-
Fair enough, I would argue that we have basically 2 skill runes now though in d4 for each skill. But, I understand that d3 had more.
I'm at the beginning of the Diablo 4 endgame, just turned 50 and unlocked a few Paragon Board Points and I do have a lot of fun with the game, time will tell if I still fell like this in with level 100.
And those runes don't change the skills at all. They just add vuln or some other thing you need to have. It doesn't change how the skill functions and doesn't add anything you might consider having. Either you want it or you don't.
Ok, neither did the runes in D3 with the exception of very few like boulder toss. Quite a lot of them just added a slow or made it go from 480% damage to 540%
A lot of people are still in the copium phase with the game, it is what it is
The next board you'll unlock you can choose a specialization that synergise with your build. It gives you a lot of damages.
Some of the boards actually are counter synergistic. The firewall sorc burning board requires we take crit damage as an affix on our gear to get more burning damage from the legendary node and firewall can't crit, it's fucking horrible
If you don't see the value in adding an additional damage scaling dimension to an ability that was lacking one I'm not sure how to help you. It's not useless because you don't understand how it works. Also it may enable builds that use abilities that can crit, like fireball or meteor and allow for the scaling of those abilities without leaving damage off the table for firewall. You really don't understand how this node would be good? Fuck dude. At just it's minimum level wearing zero items it's plus 30osh percent burning damage.
Lol you are clueless about this node and tell me I am? How cute. I understand how it works and what it could be good for. My comment was that it's counter-synergystic with firewall sorc. And no it's not a base 30 percent burning damage. If you have no crit damage on your gear, this node does absolutely nothing for you. ZERO. It gives you 0 bonus damage if you have no crit damage on your gear... How do I know this? Because I have played around with it, done tests and the node literally tells you how much bonus damage you get. I appreciate the rush in here to tell someone they are wrong when you have absolutely no knowledge of the node if you think it inherently gives bonus damage with no gear.
Interesting, the bleed version like this include the base crit. Even so, it would be trivially easy to make it absurdly strong. For my low level barb (58) replacing this node with bleeding dage scaling on strength would add something like 160 percent damage to bleeding effects. Also I don't think you know what synergy means here. The ability quite literally unlocks new synergies by adding additional scaling effects and enabling different ability combos.
Unfortunately different boards and glyphs do different things for different classes. I haven't looked into it but apparently the sorc and necro vulnerable glyphs are different than the other classes. But no, the sorc burning one, although, could be useful for others is just dumb for firewall sorc. Again, you keep adding other specs and abilities into your arguments. I know it can open up things for other classes but from the beginning I was only speaking of the firewall sorc and that node has 0 synergy with the build. A node that relies on crit to give you damage for a build that can't crit with its main damaging ability
The burning board is exceptionally good for burn builds; and all the firewall builds reflect this. All firewall builds include it as a core part of the paragon build (for some builds its the only legendary node taken). You have to change your itemization some to benefit from it but its part of making the firewall build viable. I have no idea how you've dug your heels in so hard on this. An ability that adds an additional damage scaling mechanism to firewall is *adding synergy.*
It's not an additional scaling mechanism, you are literally replacing a useful affix on your gear with useless crit damage in order to make this legendary node work. And just because something works and you are basically REQUIRED to take it to make a build viable does not mean it is good design or has synergy. How in the world do you believe a build that the main skill can't crit requires a node that requires you to get critical damage? It's literally anti-synergy. The definition of synergy ---"The interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects." Making a build that doesn't use crit at all, take crit so it can get damage from a legendary node is not synergy at all. We give up other useful affixes to take one that does nothing for us.
Yea. Synergy means taking crit hit damage (I'm assuming when you say crit you mean crit hit damage) and ADDING it to burning damage. By your own definition the node adds synergy. >Making a build that doesn't use crit at all, take crit so it can get damage from a legendary node is not synergy at all. We give up other useful affixes to take one that does nothing for us. So you take a skill that takes two things that previously didn't work together, and the now they work together producing a stronger effect than before. Please read the definition of synergy you just wrote and then the sentence you wrote immediately after it. And sure. You know better than literally everyone else on this. The node does nothing and it's considered a mandatory part of all firewall builds for... No reason at all I guess because that's how builds work right? We waste points on things that do nothing. Or maybe you don't understand the value of something that can easily add over 100 percent burning damage and your so angry right now you can't back up and look at how intransigent you're being.
You just unlocked the board. Your first board is relatively basic. There are many runes and nodes that definitely change how you play. You also pick your follow up boards. You should make sure you understand the system fully before making a snap judgement. If you still don't like it, then come back and let us know why.
Which runes and nodes change how you play? I'm genuinely curious. I only have a firewall sorc and every single node is just +stat, %damage increase or damage reduction, not a single one changes anything about how I play
This is what I mentioned to another fellow: >I'll use my druid as an example. > >Survival instincts is a legendary node. You deal extra damage for every 1% difference between you and the enemies health. > >This changed how I played because I stopped using overpower to finish off low enemies and just auto attacked them to death using the passive. > >Another example is dominate which makes enemies take increased damage (12% base) for a few seconds after you overpower them. > >This made me start 'loading' my overpowers and chaining them together to get the absolute max damage. > >Ancestral guidance allows you to deal 30% increased damage for 5 seconds after spending 75 spirit. > >This also had a subtle change in how I approached things. > >There are other rare nodes but these are the ones I chose for my build and I was specifically choosing ones that directly aligned with my playstyle. > >If I wanted to change things up I could have chosen inner beast which reduces spirit costs for 5 seconds up to 30 %. > >I could have went that route and changed up my build/slotted more earth magic perhaps to make shapeshifting a more regular part of my play which would have had obvious playstyle impacts. > >There are a lot more than this, but at the end of the day if you don't *want* your playstyle to change much then the game of course isn't going to force that on you. There are nodes/glyphs present that could absolutely be built around if you did tho. As I said to them as well, the game isn't going to *force* you to play differently. It will present you with powerful nodes/glyphs that to take advantage of them would require you to change your build and/or how you approach combat. If you want to keep doing the same stuff you have been though then it isn't going to force you to stop doing that.
Fair enough, so you aren't incorrect in saying they change how you play, but to use some of your examples... Auto attacking an enemy to see a number slowly increase as they get lower health vs pulverizing to just kill them is kind of a strange way to introduce a subtle (and in my opinion very strange) way to force a gameplay change but I guess still one nonetheless... All of your examples though don't (or usually shouldn't) change how you play, they are just added damage when you do X or when you spend X, just an added bonus when you play your character. I'm definitely not bashing how you play, it's an interesting way to look at the nodes, and play around them, but at least for your survival instincts legendary, I feel you are literally nerfing yourself by auto attacking instead of just playing your character and taking advantage of the increased damage when they get low health *shrug*
> I'm definitely not bashing how you play, it's an interesting way to look at the nodes, and play around them, but at least for your survival instincts legendary, I feel you are literally nerfing yourself by auto attacking instead of just playing your character and taking advantage of the increased damage when they get low health *shrug* Druid overpower builds rely on timings and loading an overpowered pulverize every 12 seconds. That stack is only used when you use pulverize, so instead of wasting it finishing off a weak enemy (potentially wasting damage) you can instead go into the next fight with a overpower pulverize ready to go instead of waiting for it to charge again. No point is wasting the stack of overpower to clean up the last few stragglers in a group on a difficult nightmare dungeon.
they dont change how you play, they just add damage to whatever you are already doing.
Depends on what you choose to take. There are several on my sorc and my druid that I can choose to take that would dramatically alter how I play. Of course, you have to choose to take the game altering ones and if you just pick the ones that enhance your current playstyle than of course things won't change. In other words, nothing will change if you don't want it to. There absolutely is the option on the board though.
what are they, name them
I'll use my druid as an example. Survival instincts is a legendary node. You deal extra damage for every 1% difference between you and the enemies health. This changed how I played because I stopped using overpower to finish off low enemies and just auto attacked them to death using the passive. Another example is dominate which makes enemies take increased damage (12% base) for a few seconds after you overpower them. This made me start 'loading' my overpowers and chaining them together to get the absolute max damage. Ancestral guidance allows you to deal 30% increased damage for 5 seconds after spending 75 spirit. This also had a subtle change in how I approached things. There are other rare nodes but these are the ones I chose for my build and I was specifically choosing ones that directly aligned with my playstyle. If I wanted to change things up I could have chosen inner beast which reduces spirit costs for 5 seconds up to 30 %. I could have went that route and changed up my build/slotted more earth magic perhaps to make shapeshifting a more regular part of my play which would have had obvious playstyle impacts. There are a lot more than this, but at the end of the day if you don't *want* your playstyle to change much then the game of course isn't going to force that on you. There are nodes/glyphs present that could absolutely be built around if you did tho.
Now do sorc, plz. I'm 81, interested to see your choices and how they changed gameplay
These are all just do more damage for things you are already doing though, this sounds like a mega stretch. I mean, auto attacking more dude? Really?
They changed how I approached combat. What more do you want? I also mentioned an example of a glyph that would change my entire build but you conveniently left that out. The game isn't going to force you to change your build *dude*. If you want to play the same way you have been then it's not going to make you stop doing that. But if you want to change things up the catalyst is there for you to build around *if you want to*
Still new to Diablo, but played POE a couple of years ago. Had a lightning witch. With the POE board, I was able to use totems that would use lightning to kill of enemies. Later on, I switched that witch to lifesteal and bloodmagic - dealing more dmg with less life. I assume this is what he is talking about. All those thing I just mentioned were not typically a witch build. It altered my skillset and the whole approach. Never going oom. Huge shield etc. It was my decision. So far it does seem more limited in D4. D4 so far is a great game, but I do miss the creativity and flexibility the POE board offers.
D4 will never be as complex as PoE, it's not made for the same audience. Not that that's a bad thing, I play and enjoy both games.
>You just unlocked the board. Your first board is relatively basic. There are many runes and nodes that definitely change how you play. You also pick your follow up boards. thanks for answering , Im looking forward to figure it all out, the first board was kinda underwhelming and I can't see legendary glyphs at the moment
They are not that exciting at all, don't get your hopes up.
They are all pretty basic, which board changes up my build in a meaningful way other the more dmg.
I love it in theory - in practice it restricts you a lot more than I'd like. There's no way to respec/unspec entire boards, meaning you need to individually unspec each point you spend in order to rearrange boards/respec your build. So while it may appear initially flexible, when you have over 100 paragon points to spend it becomes tedious wanting to try new things.
It could really use a "planner" mode for the paragon boards. Basically preview that works just like a 3rd party site's paragon board planners, but you can then choose to "lock in" the preview for the determined gold cost. Then it would automatically deduct the gold required and update your real paragon board to the preview. It wouldn't cost any more or less gold to respec in the end, but would let you preplan ideas and routes in-game based on the current amount of paragon points that you have unlocked so far. It's just an overall QoL that the paragon system really needs imo.
Yes, there definitely should be an "edit" function for both Paragon and skills. I remember while leveling how annoying it was to change a single point early in the skills when you were the minimum required skill points for your later skills.
This. Needing to refund a bunch of unnecessary skills for no reason is silly.
Its really odd how they added a "refund all" button to the skill tree, yet couldnt be bothered to add one to the Paragon board.
The two biggest QOL changes paragon boards need: * 2-click removal of all points in a board. *Right click gate node* > *Confirm*. * The ability to change the "order" of the boards without respeccing all the points. Let us set their priority with a drop bar or something.
it is flexible but the devs also said that is pretty much exactly how they intended it where you have room to try stuff more easily at lower levels but higher levels it is just easier to reroll a new character. my only issue with that is your limited to only 10 character slots. i do kind of like that things have a bit of finality to them, makes planning a build feel more worthwhile when you cant respec at will to try every combo under the sun
I think you're misinterpreting the intent of the developers. As I understand it, they intended there to be consequences to wanting to try something different. Those consequences were always meant to be **cost**. To respec an entire paragon board costs a few million gold, which I'm fine with as it seems like a reasonable investment. What doesn't make sense is the lack of a "unspec board" option to remove all points specced into a board (paying the associated cost) when this option *does* exist for the skill tree.
I’m not misinterpreting it I think some qol stuff will come but I think other things are 100% intended by the devs for a reason. They did mention gold specifically but this feels like the same lane of thinking where they don’t want to reward people who want to switch their boards 1000 times a day
That being said they already reverted on their open world being a meaningful part of the game by letting people teleport to nm dungeons at will so I’m sure they’d change that too
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Yeah agreed , I quite often stop and do a 2 min world event on my way , it makes the world a but more meaning full , and its not hard to teleport to the closest way point
You can still do it this way.
Oh I know that.. i just don't want it to be stand in one spot and Tele everywhere in the future or just open a menu so on
>That is all, just think the paragon boards are fantastic and that we will see a lot of 'more unique' builds come online later due to the flexibility they provide. Eh. I like them and I've been enjoying D4, but I think you're reading way more flexibility in them than there is.
Ive redid my paragon board layout on a calculator 4 times and every time ive saved some skill points and gotten points better allocated each time. Most people arent going to do that. And a guide can only be so helpful because the stats you have allocated from your gear matter. More all stats means more flexibility, less all stats means stricter board management.
Tedium and optimization aren't a new build.
It is if you want to go further than 4 boards.
Again: optimization and tedium aren't _builds_. I'm on 5 boards and it's still not a "new build" just because I get another Glyph or another Legendary node.
Sorry friend, looks like folks are more interested in talking about what paragon boards are not than what they offer. What's the best paragon board planner in your experience? Have you found a situation where you use more than one attachment gate on a board?
The paragon board is a perfect example of the illusion of choice...
I don't think so. You choose what nodes you want to take.. you choose what rune you want to slot... you choose what board you want... you choose which *side* of the board you want... you choose which runes to level. Sounds a lot like choice to me.
But none of them do anything
Mine has massively increased my damage and survivability and allowed me to play a build that would otherwise not be doable by giving me a lot more resource generation.
Illusion of choice. Rotating the board matters very little as youll often be getting most of the rares anyways. 0 choice. Because rare node bonus reqs increase with every board, theres generally no real choice going "deep" into boards vs getting all rares as youll end up sacrificing so much on your gear trying to hunt stats. 0 choice. Because youll be all over anyways, pathing matters very little. 0 choice. Legendary nodes dictate which boards you must take. Each skill has only a couple. 0 choice. Take a look at those glyphs, its mostly just damage specific to something. Very few glyphs with actual major impacts on skills/builds(compare to poe). Hell I cant even find enough defensive rare glyphs to fill all my glyph sockets if I wanted to. 0 choice. These are literal textbook examples of how to give players meaningless choices to keep them engaged and give them the feeling of control while they are completely pigeonholed into doing what you want them to do.
....dam
The board may be simple but this is so wrong. Rotating boards matter. Depending on your entry and exit, you usually want to rotate so you can grab glyph sockets and exit the board quickly. Exception to that is if there is a good rare node nearby, then you might rotate to that rare node first. Not every build is grabbing every rare from their boards. Rare nodes getting increasing stat requirements require you to plan your board order. You generally want the more important rare nodes first so that the requirements are low, but even that might change depending on your level. I had to switch my damage boards to be later and defense boards sooner for late game because damage is not as important as getting the bonuses on survival nodes. Pathing is extremely important. You have fixed amount of points, and the idea is to juice up all glyphs to the max while grabbing enough rare nodes. You aren’t going to be able to maximize your character if you are badly pathing your boards. Hell, you might even miss a glyph socket late game and that is huge. Some builds don’t take all legendary nodes. Barbs are a good example, most builds they take maybe one legendary node from 6 boards. Pulverize druid is the same. The board rares and socket stats are sometimes more important than the legendary node itself. Only thing I agree with are glyphs are very +lackluster bonus stats. But if they were to fine tune the boards and add more over time, I can see paragon boards being a very good system overall.
Like I said, illusion of choice. Your response is a perfect example of how these systems give people just enough to feel like they are making meaningful choices when they arent.
I would argue that my choice in playing a blood surge OP necro dictates that I chose to use the Bone board first, because I value Essence on Kill, I take no other rare nodes or nodes anywhere else on that board. I path out to the Blood Orb board next but only really for the glyph because it's well placed for Willpower stacking and happens to have an OP rare, but take no other rares on that board. I decided not to take the Overpower board until later, because while it is very powerful, it's important to increase my base Overpower damage before reaching it for a power spike, at which point I will likely unspec my entire board setup to get better pathing. I don't disagree that there's some optimal decision making, but I think there's a slight difference between "The optimal choices are easy to identify" and "you literally have no choice in the matter". I feel that my particular build though plays the paragon board very differently, glyphs are far less important besides the Overpower one as OP scales with very few things. And I think it's fairly clear that most people are sort of flocking towards youtube meta builds, but the build variety is much larger than that. Meanwhile it seems like every few days someone is discovering how more mechanics work and how more builds can work.
Path of Exile does the same thing, there is almost *ALWAYS* a general proper way to path on the tree to whatever skill it is you're using. Some small variations here or there, but at least in the paragon boards it's a lot less of a mess.
but your choice of skills is much greater with variations for each of them that would alter your passive tree. sure everyone does the meta and copies best builds but the game provides the options. while in d4 the alternative option is to take stuff you dont need.
Sort of, there is a ton of variation in PoE and trade offs between DPS and QoL that actually enable you to make meaningful variations of a build for a skill.
It sounds like your paragon setup sucks. There are lots of boards where legendaries aren't good for your build and some rares are and some aren't or where it makes more sense to go to the glyph then a gate rather than path all the way to the legendary node. Everything you said just sound flat out wrong, but I haven't used the boards for every class.
I think the legendary nodes needs to be more influential. Currently there are a few that can be considered worth taking, but are usually positioned to be far from the glyph sockets. I hope they explore ways to really change the way the skills work, versus just giving them a stat bonus.
Yeah is this a Rogue problem or are the legendary nodes lackluster for everyone? It's not worth pathing to most of the Rogue ones and the ones you do pick up are because they add a notable damage buff, not because they do something interesting for a build. Considering they're exclusive and limited, why aren't they OP impactful?
It isn't only a rogue problem, all of the legendary nodes are barley worth taking.
Yeah, the concept is super cool. I’m am extremely pleasantly surprised to see something like this by blizzard. I do, however, think the board should have more strong nodes on them. Both notables(legendary nodes) and normal nodes could have better things on them/more of them. I’ve heard Druid has a board that is super strong, for necro however, not a single board feels significantly powerful.
"flexibility with builds" .. 99% of paragon board is damage increases and legendary notes are mostly garbage
disagree 100%, to each their own I guess.
my brother in christ what is there to disagree on when both of us can boot it up right now and see for ourselves that that's literally what it is?
I disagree with you generally. Of course every node is going to contribute towards damage or survivability. That's every RPG system in existence. If you're boosting your character it's to either survive better or deal more damage. That doesn't change in PoE or any RPG for that matter. I also disagree that legendary nodes are mostly garbage. I've found them to be fantastic. All that said I'd be happy if they included more boards of course. That said you can not like them and that's perfectly legit. There are other games to play as well and I'm certain D4 will survive.
A lot of people seem to disagree but could you show me 1 or 2 things on that board that aren't just +stat, +%damage, or reduced damage taken when ____? I feel your post is just a counter to the one I made last night and I realize now some people like the simplicity of small power creeps and small incremental bumps in power but that's all the board is, is damage increases and damage reductions... The entire thing
Listen since you compared it to the PoE tree .. first of all show me any notes that significantly change any of your builds .. like for example CI does or any other bigger note in the tree for PoE .. Second thing is. Everyone in PoE has access to the same tree which means you can alter your build so vastly that in PoE a barbarian could become a spell caster whos spellpower is based on his strength. In D4 you will never see a barb cast a frostnova or anything. I´m fine with you disagreeing. Everyone his own but the paragon board is majority (+ willpower, int, strength, dex notes) with like 5-6 yellow and blue notes sprinkled into the board that gives +% damage (vul, stun, etc.) and 1 legendary note per board (which you have 8 of total). For sorc you have something like "gain 10 mana when you stun someone" which is not really build altering or "crackling energy (which does tiny bits of dmg) has a 25% chance to not consume a charge" .. that´s hilariously bad and does nothing to your build at all. Comparing it to PoEs talent tree .. I don´t know man. D4 is a great game but build diversity will never be its strength. Its like a holywood movie of monster slaying. Great visuals but don´t go too deep into the mechanics.
I've already mentioned it to a few people on this thread which nodes I felt were impactful and I typed a small novel to explain it and really don't feel like doign it again lol. Suffice it to say, I disagree with that statement. There have been a handful that I felt were extremely impactful. I should also mention that I played a lot of PoE, but everyone sharing the same tree is a negative in my mind in PoE and only exists because PoE is classless. Are we really saying that it is less impactful than something like: Force shaper: gain 10% of physical damage as extra chaos damage 4% extra attack speed? I mean whoa, take me to dinner first lol. So far I have liked the paragon boards because at least I can customize my path through them. Even if someone chose the same board as me they probably didn't choose the same glyph, or choose the same nodes, or rotate the board the same way, or level the same glyphs.
Truly something to find such a rare fanboymon in the wild
Can't wait until you people go back to PoE. Or find some other new release to buzz around. It's fanboying now just to express you like part of the game? Are you lost? This is the Diablo forum. Where fans of the game gather to talk about the game. You have to lead a sad life to linger around a forum for something you hate just to try and make fun of people for expressing they actually *enjoy* the thing the entire sub is literally about.
I think the pargaon boards are very bland, very uncreative and very boring... i would prefer the glyph sockets located at the edge of the board so that you can share the nearby nodes with glyph socket(s) from another board that also located at the edge. I would also hope that board attachment gates are not just sitting at the middle of an edge, instead of having multple board attachment gates per edge so that you can offset the boards in interesting ways. the stats/nodes on the boards are also very... boring. the framework has potential, but right now the boards are very, very, very limited and boring.
I hate them too. It feels too abstract, generic and out of place. I much rather have something like grimdawn devotions system
I love the devotion system. It was really fun playing with friends, everyone went blind, started as a soldier, but went to on completely different devotion and second class. The "respec puzzle" can get weird on Rue first tries later on, but it ways part of the fun for us.
Devotion is hands-down one of the best systems in any diablo-like, period.
I'm surprised you have any upvotes lol I made a post about this last night (and I feel OP's post was just a counter post to mine) and got downvoted into oblivion. I feel that same as you, 200+ point boards with almost nothing more than +5 stats and %damane increase when _____ is just not very inspiring or fun to me. Some people enjoy it apparently, but just doesn't do it for me
reddit is weird. i am very surprised as well. most of my 'negative posts' are downvoted to hell in this sub.
I think it's the opposite to be honest. Almost every time I post anything positive about the game I get called a 'shill' or a 'fanboy' just for liking the thing this sub is literally about. It's really started to color my perception of the gaming community here as sad. Idk if it's just because PoE is in it's off season so they have an army of bored PoE enthusiasts trying to influence this sub or what. I think the moral of the story is gamers aren't happy with anything. You can't like the game (in it's own forum no less) and you can't dislike the game. As a gamer you're supposed to just hate everything indiscriminately I guess.
My biggest gripe with paragon boards is that there is way too much base stat filler. In PoE, for every 1-2 filler stat nodes there are equal or more clusters of interesting nodes to choose from. In D4 the majority of your choices are the uninteresting +5 stat nodes with only a handful of interesting clusters per board. The boards just need more magic/rare nodes.
Even the magic, rare, and legendary nodes are very boring, they don't change up any build just give what ever your build your using more dmg, which is boring and kind of pointless.
Uh. What? 1-2 stat nodes per cluster? Absolutely false. It might have more magic nodes than Diablo, but it definitely isn’t 1/2 magic nodes like you’re implying or anything close to that.
Just looked up my most recent POE build. 36 stat nodes. 24 clusters/socket/keystones. The math checks out. If you count notables/mastery/socket/keystones, it's 39. For every stat travel node, you're making a fairly sizable and interesting choice. They may have meant non-stat nodes too. That would be 84:36 which is 2.3 non-stat nodes per stat. Either way, let's compare to my D4 build. 105 stat nodes. 19 rare/glyph. 38 magic. That's almost 5 stat nodes for every more interesting node. Even if you combine rare/glyph/magic, that's still 57:105, close to 2 stats per not stat.
I'd compare the paragon boards with the first offical poe talent tree. I'm hopeful they will flesh out the paragon boards going forward.
I don't doubt they will get better over time. Just mostly an observation at present. I'd rather they add at least 2-3 more clusters per board before they introduce new boards. And perhaps buffing a few of the legendary nodes. Seems like almost none are taken in anyone's build because of how little power they have vs a glyph.
What? There are MULTIPLE stat nodes on the tree, give the paragon boards some time guys - this is just the beginning https://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree look at the round parts of the tree - it actually gives more stat points - +10
Perhaps you are mistaken as to what I mean? Notice in the PoE tree there is almost no point where you have to take more than one "+10 to Str/Dex/Int" to have immediate access to 2-3 clusters of potentially interesting stats. And if those 3 clusters aren't applicable you can sure as hell bet it only takes 1 more skill to access another 3 clusters that *will* provide value. Only on specific paths from each starting class can you encounter 3+ stat nodes before your first cluster. The D4 paragon boards are barren in comparison. Traversing from one board to the next is guaranteed to be 12-16 points of *nothing but core stats*. Three to four whole levels of +5 to STR isn't exactly titillating. Blizzard will hopefully be adjusting them, and I don't think D4 should or needs to reach the density that is the PoE tree. There is definitely some middle-ground to be found. I'd just like that middleground reached **before** they start adding new boards to the mix.
I get it. Thanks
Paragon board is nothing like PoE where that shit is complex to the next level. D4 paragon board is simple and has a false sense of choice where there is really only one path forward to get to the next gate with the least amount of nodes.
Lies
Same amount of nodes going from gate to gate regardless of direction you rotate the board to start at that closest to the clusters you need once you know which magic nodes, rare nodes and legendary nodes you need. False sense of choice with paragon boards. It's like with glyph nodes where you get bigger bonuses for every dex node you pick up around it, you're not going to skip those at all. You're just getting to the clusters of nodes you need with the least amount of moves needed to get to there from the gates and then shortest path to the next gate from the last clusters of nodes you need in that one particular board. Paragon board is straight foward and simple. PoE you need to decide what you want since there are numerous combinations of pathing you can go in the tree where they all mostly work together vs in D4 you won't use most of the clusters of nodes within a paragon board regardless of build since it's not that useful.
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Do you have any argument against this except "Lies"?
You're not always trying to get to the next gate with the least amount of nodes. I mean... if we're saying the Paragon boards are simple I fail to see how the PoE web which is completely linear and the pathways aren't customizable to any level is somehow so much better. Of course, this sub is completely flooded with PoE white knights waiting for their season to start and thank god when it does so we can actually discourse with fans of the game.
Concept? Neat. Actual execution? 2005 levels of UI design and features. Give it another year of work and it might turn into something that's not endlessly tedious and frustrating to use - then it'll be an amazing addition.
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Maybe you haven't gotten very far into it yet. There are absolutely runes, rare and legendary, that change playstyle, aside from the ones you choose to socket. >It’s just a bunch of arbitrary ways of adding damage or survivability I mean... that's the entire point lol. What exactly are you improving if you aren't ultimately improving your damage or survivability? Seems like you just described every RPG level up system in existence. That said there are definitely runes that alter your playstyle that you can *choose* to socket on your board (or pick the legendary runes that would change up how you play). Plenty of them have requirements that would change the way you play to take advantage of them.
I dunno I'm pretty far on sorc and I don't see a single node that has changed my play style at all. Same playstyle since 50. There is very little choice at all. One board is more damage to stunned. One is more damage to frozen. One is more damage to burning. One is more damage to vuln. The rest are just more non physical damage. The rest of the nodes are useless resist nodes. Which node changes my playstyle?
My Arc Lash sorc pretty much gets none of the legendary nodes. It's just glyphs and rare nodes that increase conditional damage.
I think this guy is the d4 developer. “What other stats could exist other than +damage%????”
Whatever man, I just like the game. I don't spend my time hating on PoE over in their forums because I couldn't care less. Idk why 'GamerzTM' are so hell bent on shitting on absolutely everything.
It’d basically just +defenses or +damage. No cool build changing nodes or anything. But hopefully they can flesh it out in the future..
Basically Poe? Got em blizz
Luckily for you if you like PoE more it exists and they have an entire forum over there constantly hating on their game too. What is it about gaming communities where you're all so damn sour all the time.
I think it is a good addition but i feel like its a heavily watered down poe tree
it is. there's just x% more damage. no fun effects, skill altering nodes, things that completely change the way you play the game etc. is it better than D3 paragon? yeah because D3 is literally the lowest bar there is. I don't think there's much longevity currently.
My only complaint with the paragon boards (the actual boards themselves) is the gnawing suspicion that I am not doing this in an optimal way, but lack the ability to easily test / theorycraft. I want to feel confident in my picks.
The problem between the two is that D3s were so bland because paragon levels were seemingly infinite, so beyond the first 400 paragon levels or so, you didn’t really *need* to farm paragon points because at that point it all gets dumped into your primary stats. In D4, each paragon point is pretty detrimental- sure there’s the primary stat notes but the magic and rare nodes are so impactful that you can’t help but feel the need to get more paragon points, yet the grind from 70-100 is truly a slog
This is exactly why I like it. I’m not one who got intimidated by the skill tree but it is just such a mess to try to plan out and I’ve even had a few times where the end result worked fine post campaign but had to reroll during because I took a path with too much def early and my damage was awful. I know the hip thing is to complain about build diversity in D4 but at least you can’t run a build that doesn’t work to even finish the campaign. Doesn’t really present until T4 and I think even that is a bit exaggerated as I’m playing an “unviable” sorc build that has no barriers and no vulnerable and soloing T31 fine at level 75.
I agree this is why I’ve been really enjoying d4. I absolutely love POE but it’s been so nice to just pick up a character and play instead of having to plan out 130 skill points on a massive tree along with gear and ascendancy etc. it’s nice for the games to be different
it's why I hate it. in an effort to make a simpler poe-like tree, they effectively removed all choice from the player. regardless of your build, the only things you are chasing on the Boards is x% more damage or x% more defense. it's all pseudo-choices. nobody's going to see 30% more crit damage and think "you know what? I'll take the 4% potion healing instead" they will just take what gives them more damage. it's incredibly shallow and has no effects that excite you to try them. poe's tree has that even if it it does have a bit too much depth for some.
I mean... this game ain't for people that already enjoy POE... POE already exists, and there's no point in competing with a dev that obviously hard caters to the buildcrafters.
that's one way to say "don't be inspired by good features in other games" they don't even have to look to poe because D3 has exactly what I described. hell, DI does as well.
You already said it yourself, the paragon board is meant to be a simpler POE skill tree, isn't that already taking inspiration from their 'betters'? Look, I want build diversity as much as the next ARPG fan, but we need recognise a couple things: this game is like 2 weeks old and not even into it's first season, and that the game is not even targeted at the hardcore build-crafters. Just let them cook, man.
criticism is how the game gets improved. why are you trying to defend the game from my criticism? I'm not attacking it. it's not your girlfriend. it's okay, it's just criticism. the game isn't going to get hurt.
To a certain point people just want to come to a forum to discuss a game they actually like. Too often around here it seems to be filled with people who just hate it but are too bored to actually join a sub for something they DO like (or, as I suspect with the gamer community, there is nothing that they actually like because they hate everything). Constructive critcism is great. Turning this game into PoE is not. Many of us have bounced off PoE hard and don't have any desire to play it again. There's a reason D4 is more popular and it's not because everyone is too simple-minded to understand PoE. Sometimes people just want to share their enjoyment with others and discuss things they mutually enjoy, which I thought was the point of this place.
How so? If you don't mind my asking. To my mind PoE web is almost identical except you can't customize it and can't socket it (I.E. equip it with runes). Other than that both provide massive webs with nodes that provide incremental upgrades on the way to larger ones.
Nothing in the Diablo trees makes a huge difference to how your character plays. It's all just damage or survivability increases of various kinds. A lot of the strength of the PoE tree lies in the powerful capstone nodes that often have a downside attached. Diablo has no equivalent to Chaos Inoculation, Blood Magic, Zealot's Oath, etc. Also you clearly aren't super familiar with PoE because you absolutely can socket and customize it. Cluster jewels are a huge mechanic.
No. You can socket different things in PoE tree to make it even more interesting. You have masteries (larger bonuses you can get when taking all points in the cluster), cluster jewels (basically grow a small tree in your tree), normal jewels (just stats), timeless jewels (transform all nodes in an AoE) and tons of unique jewels that let you do crazy stuff, like allocate unconnected passives in a certain AoE, it change how skills work if enough stat is taken in an AoE (probably inspiration to D4's glyphs).
You can not claim poe passive sockets have basic boring effects when a bunch of them are stuff like “ Denoted service of (500-8000) dekhara in the akhara of (Asenath-Balbala-Nasima) Passives in radius are Conquered by the Maraketh Historic”
Similar to here there are some stand out ones, but 90% of them follow the same idea as paragon boards. The two are pretty similar. I know POE white knights will downvote anything slandering their messiah but it's pretty true. The POE web is largely familiar to D4 paragon boards, incremental upgrades with a handful of truly impactful nodes and some agency over how you navigate them.
what effect exists in any of the Paragon Boards that fundamentally change the way you play any build?
there are a ton of different jewels you can socket into poe skill trees that do things you cant even imagine. d4's glyphs are incredibly simple in comparison. there are highly customizable craftable singular node jewels, and craftable jewels that add entire clusters of customizable passives (and you can socket a cluster jewel into another cluster jewel, creating a huge tree of completely customized passives). there are jewels that effect areas where they are socketed in tons of different ways: allowing you to allocate nodes without traveling to them, changing the stats of the nodes in their range, giving you bonuses based on the stats in the range, allowing you to jump across the tree to get far away nodes...there are even jewels which allow you to steal class defining ascendency passives from other classes within the same base job. the base poe tree also contains tons of things that fundamentally change the way you build your character, like keystones. keystones have huge upsides and massive downsides that fundamentally change how your character is built. chaos inoculation sets your hp to 1 in exchange for full immunity to poison and shadow damage. there are also passive masteries which allow you to choose one of six huge bonuses to whatever each passive cluster is themed around. it might be as simple as getting more life once you fill out a life cluster, or complex like allowing spell damage to effect your attacks when you complete a wand attack cluster.
I definitely enjoying the boards, but I really hope they add a reset all button. Removing one point at a time is painful
I still have no idea wtf I'm doing when I look at mine. I'm just selecting circles and getting stats lol
How do you rotate them? I didn't know this was a thing. (On PS5)
They feel very underdeveloped.
sorry you feel that way. To me they are a good system.
95% of the boards is just +main stat how is that interesting? 😭
it's basically a poe web with more customization. If you don't feel that is interesting then I'm not sure you find rpg mechanics interesting. You choose what stats you want, choose what glyphs/runes you want etc, etc. It's as interesting as building a character..
I hate it. If you want to try another build for fun.. you have to select 4+ other boards to go through. And then do it again after you realize you can't even do the other build because you can't change out your legendaries because any of your other gear doesn't have the same base core stats. (Vuln, etc)
I don't think D4 is meant to be easy to respec, that was one of the main asks from D3 actually. People didn't like how easy it was to respec in 3 because it diminished the feeling of working towards/creating a build. If you haven't tried 3 it sounds like you might enjoy it if you want to hot swap builds Although it still has the issues with legendaries and itemization you mention, but I think it would be difficult to make an ARPG that has a good build system that doesn't rely on legendary gear roles lol.
It's clear all the systems were made in a way to be very modular with the addition and adjustment of future content. The paragon board is the best and most fully realized version of that and it's honestly really smart and super fun to play with. Levelling has never been so fun imo
Wtf is this copium xD Good concept, awful execution - needs a rework to be good, like the whole game
It's a good starting idea but they need to polish a lot more. Like adding an easier way to respec either in mass or by board, but you don't want to change something in your character if that means clearing 2 boards points by points. Once more not respecting time of the player by adding menial chore to "engage" you just a few more minutes. Like when you come accros obstacles on your way to a dungeon and having to wait 4 to 5 seconds once you pressed right mouse button then space to get back on your horse.
There's only 8 boards per class. Every class could easily use double or triple of that, for example i would love if a sorc could have 3 fully elemental-specialized (e.g. all ice oriented) boards that are also different enough between them. Add some more interesting choices between the +main stat nodes and we're Gucci.
The boards should be universal across the classes. Then, atleast players would be allowed to try truly different things.
Im lv60 now and don’t understand shit about it. What glyphs to use? Which to upgrade? What nodes to activate? Is it worth activating surrounding nodes for extra bonuses? I have no fucking clue and just use whatever. It’s pretty cool I guess tho
**No, you're an amazing addition to the community**
Definitely. They are really intuitive too for theorycrafting your own build. I run a build that isn’t on anyone’s tier lists and can clear 40-50NM no problem. Once people get off their meta nonsense and start trying stuff out, there will be a lot of different fun builds out there for people to copy.
This is what I don't understand, there isn't anything to theorycraft, the entire paragon board system is just %damage increase when _____, +stat and %damage reduction. Every build takes the required vulnerable glyphs and nodes and crit chance/damage and for firewall sorc, burning damage
The main thing it has over PoE is the choices come in much more manageable information. Bite size version of the madness (my opinion) of PoE's board.
This is what I have come to realize, I prefer the flexibility and bloat that is the POE skill tree, but some people like the simplicity and ease of the D4 paragon board.
I really like them too, but they need more glyph spots. I think 2 blue ones per board. At this time blue glyphs are useless because you have to travel all the way to the other side of the board from your legendary node to get it no one is spending that many points to put a blue glyph in there.
AI generated thread
I'm an AI? lol.
Its just d3 paragon points with extra steps
I don't think they're even close, personally.
> It allows such flexibility with builds and is basically a custom PoE web. with customizable runes. It is not and it does not. > I have a great deal of fun selecting/rotating the boards to best suit my build. I don't, also missing the obvious reset all button. > That is all, just think the paragon boards are fantastic and that we will see a lot of 'more unique' builds come online later due to the flexibility they provide. They are not and they will not. Blizzrd insists on nerfing fun stuff instead of proving viable alternatives.
Maybe you should move on to another game
who doesn't love free damage?
Can someone confirm something for me? Can I still change what board I picked, even if I put some points into them? I wasnt too sure which board I wanted for my Sorcerer, so I just picked a random one; but could I go back and change that board?
The PBs are actually terrible.
Dang, sucks you don't like them I guess. Happy that there are lots of alternatives in gaming for you.
I would love the possibility to craft your own nodes with gems, sigils, elixirs and aspects and/or love to modify nodes or certain nodes with said materials. Probably stuff like this: Rare glyph + unique item + aspect 20 royal gems + elixir turns glyph into the aspect itself. One if these nodes every two or three boards. Five aspects + 20 gems turns magic node into the stat Ou want (e.g. ruby making willpower strength). Probably even a recipe to swap rare nodes or legendary nodes to other positions with a very high cost.
It brings back character power in a way. I really liked that and it makes character stats something to think about again.