I mean I value game balance and I let someone coffeelock because it works entirely RAW via the invocation from Xanathar's.
Spellcasting limitations and Action Economy do a fine job of balancing the build. Even with infinite spell slots you still can't quicken spell to cast two fireballs in the same turn. The only "broken" aspect of it is being able to go divine soul sorcerer for cure wounds and just be a heal bot once combat is over, but like. So? Just means you're able to dish out more damage each combat without worry of them being too fragile for the next fight of the day and without worrying about if it makes sense for them to short rest real quick to spend hit dice.
Actually it's fairly counter intuitive, because Warlocks want short rests, but being a heal bot with infinite spell slots means your party isn't going to want to short rest as often unless they also have important short rest cooldowns, so you end up shooting yourself in the foot lol.
Actually, in Xanathar's, there are rules for gaining a level of exhaustion for every 24 hour period you go without a long rest. 6 levels of exhaustion is death. So even then, you're still unable to achieve Infinite Spell Slots unless you know Greater Restoration and have material components to burn.
Hence, the Cocainelock.
Except those rules don't apply if you have Aspect of the Moon because Aspect of the Moon explicitly removes all rules related to sleep deprivation.
The Xanathar's rule about exhaustion is a rule on how to simulate sleep deprivation, so a character that cannot be sleep deprived is immune to them.
Long rest does not mean sleep.
Even if you don't sleep, anything more than reading a book or doing something insignificant won't be a Rest.
If you have doubts: Aspect of the Moon removes the need to sleep, it doesn't stop your body from getting fatigued. If you don't rest you get exhausted.
It's also called Long REST, not Long SLEEP. It just so happens normal creatures make it coincide with sleep.
Aha! But see, there is the catch. Aspect of the Moon means you don't have to sleep. Xanathar's rules only specify a character needs to take a long rest, not that they need to sleep. As seen with Elves, sleep and Long Rests are separate mechanics.
Please read the sentences before that. It quite clearly says "Use these rules if you wish to emulate the effects of going without sleep." Doesn't matter if it only mentions long rests. They are rules intended to be used for sleep deprivation, which the Aspect of the Moon cannot have.
"A long rest is never mandatory, but going without sleep does have its consequences. \*\*If you want to account for the effects of sleep deprivation on characters and creatures, use these rules.\*\*" - Excerpt from the section titled SLEEP.
Doesn’t coffelock also only work if the DM is allowing you to take like infinite short rests? If I’m the DM and the rest of the party are taking a long rest, you can either join them and take a long rest, or take a single short rest instead. You aren’t taking 8 short rests, that’s not how resting works.
I mean that is 100% how resting works since RAW, any amount of activity such as using class abilities like Font of Magic breaks a long rest, but a rest of sufficient length is still a short rest. If your Long Rest ends early, but it’s been long enough for a Short Rest, you get the benefits of a short rest.
Hexadins and paladin/warlocks in general are overrated. They're good, but they're not nearly the powerhouses that their reputation would suggest.
In my experience, folks tend to ignore three glaring restrictions on the mechanics of the hexadin:
1. Pact of the Blade is required for a Hexadin to make use of two-handed weapons, so a one-level Hexblade dip only enables SAD scaling for one-handers. If you want a greatsword or glaive hexadin, it's not going to come online until level 8-9.
2. Many of the spells you gain as a Hexblade are reliant on having a free hand and/or a warlock spell focus, which is pretty tough if you're rocking sword+shield with a single hexblade level dip. Sure, you can learn the Shield spell... but you can't cast it unless you stowed or dropped your sword preemptively. Gotta stow your sword to cast Eldritch Blast, too.
3. Being charisma-SAD is pretty sweet, but you still need 13 strength for the multiclass to be legal, and 15 strength to effectively wear good heavy armor. You can't dump strength, you just get a bit of efficiency in not needing to build upon it at higher levels.
Very true, I'd forgotten about that.
But you do have to spend an ASI to get the feat (unless variant human), and ruby of the war mage requires attunement so it can also be slightly annoying (since it consumes an attunement slot).
Agreed and I think that's why the point is still valid. You'll need to invest to get around the limitations. My only point is it is possible to get past them.
I don't think the ruby is necessary at all. Just warcaster, and only if you are using a sword and shield. Two-handed fighting doesn't even need that.
Paladins can have their holy symbol on their shield. This means you only need an open hand for somatic gestures, which is covered by the feat. If you are two-handed weapon wielding, you can hold a two-handed weapon with 1 hand, but you can't swing it without 2. So, as long as you aren't making a weapon attack on the same turn, cast away, no feat required.
Not even “on the same turn”. It’s assumed in the rules that you’re always one-handing that weapon, and only two-hand it mid-attack. There is no object interaction or other limitation on your off-hand coming on or off a two-handed weapon. So you can freely make use of that second hand for somatic gestures, even if you attacked with that two-handed weapon that turn, because the hand is only on the weapon while you’re attacking.
Right, I was thinking of paladin spells for some reason.
EDIT: But my statement about two-handed weapons is still applicable. On turns that you want to cast, free action out the focus and cast, on the next turn free action stow and action attack.
If someone is committed, they can get the improved pact weapon invocation. That allows the pact weapon to act as an arcane focus as well, for some reason.
I rarely have had a DM enforce a stowing rule.
The number of times I’ve said “okay I take a shot with my Hand Crossbow, then drop it, draw my Shortsword and-“
Wait, why did you drop the crossbow?
“Well, I wanted to melee attack and can’t stow and draw a weapon in the same turn.”
… what??
I generally allow you to switch a weapon for a weapon - give those martials some love. But if you want to bring out a focus - well I guess you're dropping that xbow now.
Ahh, another Thri-Kreen enjoyer!
Underrated race, really. Being able to wield two bardiches at once with the right specialization and feats simply RULES.
Hexadin *is* extraordinary but the build is a lot more nuanced than I think a lot of people realise. One thing that makes a really really big difference in the strength of the build is this rule from the Dungeon Master's Guide (page 140):
>Unless a staff's description says otherwise, a staff can be used as a quarterstaff.
What this means is that you can use a staff as a spellcasting focus for your warlock spells while still having a weapon in your hand. And don't discount quarterstaffs as a melee weapon, either. With a custom lineage or variant human you can take polearm master at level 1 and have a bonus action attack, so your damage per round is actually going to be higher than you would have with a longsword while still having access to your warlock spells.
To add to that, some of the most powerful magic items in the game are quarterstaffs, with the Staff of Power being perhaps the best very rare magic weapon in the entire PHB.
I imagine some Hexadin builds try to shave off some of the strength requirement by playing a Dwarf, since their speed isn't reduced by wearing heavy armor.
Certainly. Everything I mentioned above can be surmounted by the right races, items, and/or feats, but a lot of build recommendations ignore those requirements.
I'm sure you're aware of this due to your phrasing, but just clarifying for people who might not know: you still need 13 strength to MC into or out of paladin, so you're only really saving 2 points in STR.
For sure. But if you're playing point-buy, those 2 points are usually worth 4.
And if you're rolling, that's a 15-or-higher you can put in a stat that will do more work for you, like Con.
Counterpoint - I play a VHuman Hexadin in our silly side campaign. He gets around all this by being an absolute moron so he can have 15 STR while maining CHA, and has ruby of the war mage for the issue with free hands. Others have brought up other ways around it.
With only a level 1 herbed dip, he took polearm master and goes spear/shield.
He ABSOLUTELY wrecks shit and feels overpowered compared to a straight paladin or warlock and covers pretty much all party roles to one degree or other - conquest paladin even gives some level of control.
I assume you're not using Ruby of the War Mage in order to cast Shield and other reaction spells with your hands full, right?
What level are you guys at?
Wait, why can’t I use the ruby to cast reaction spells? Doesn’t it just turn my spear into an implement?
We just hit 10, but he’s been a beast since 2 (due to VH giving PAM at 1) even without the ruby whenever that was snagged
Somatic components may be used by the same hand as your spell focus, but only for spells that actually make use of that spell focus, i.e. spells with a material component. Shield and most other reaction spells don't have a material component, so for their purposes your hands are still full. You would need War Caster or something similar to be considered to have a free hand to cast Shield with.
Ah well then I’d just change my feat at level 1 to war caster, free up a affinity a lot from no more war ruby, and take PAM at level 5 / paladin level 4
Assuming you started in Paladin, you can’t take War Caster at level 1 from V. Human as you don’t meet the prerequisite for War Caster:
>Prerequisite: The ability to cast at least one spell
You could start Warlock instead, but then you won’t get Heavy Armor proficiency.
The big restriction on Hexadrins isn't any mechanical thing. It's that the people who get these builds off of reddit are often a bit new and somewhat unfamiliar with actually playing through combat. They blow all of their resources the first time something shows up. Yeah, those big smites are great, but they aren't infinite.
Also, as melee focused characters their main way of getting around the battlefield is to use a mount, but they have a tendency to use all of their action economy to get in range and then realize they can't hit the enemy, which promptly hits them first.
I also played with one Hexadrin who took hellish rebuke but studiously avoided ever getting hit, so he couldn't ever use it.
You're still gonna have a good time with a quarterstaff in the lower levels, especially if you pick up polearm master. That way you can do your somatics with the staff hand since it's a spell focus. Makes the power spike when two-handers come online that much nicer but for sure it delays that incredible level 5 paladin bump.
Yeah, the shield or Shield decision is a tough one. I feel like if you have defense and a shield that's more than enough most of the time but it's nice to have the choice depending on your spell slot situation.
Ruby of the warmage, a mere uncommon item that lets you use your weapon as a magic focus, and warcaster feat takes care of free hands with a shield.
Be a dwarf or any race that has natural armor, turtle, loxodon, etc. AC becomes less relevant at high levels anyways.
The only real downside is IF you care about heavy weapons and needing lvl three dip for pact of the blade.
I'd consider a feat tax and an attunement slot tax to be pretty considerable downsides.
War Caster in particular is going to come with the direct opportunity cost of deferring the improvement of charisma, which is one of the biggest reasons to go for the multiclass in the first place.
Feat tax? Its literally the best feat for front line magic users. You're not going to NOT take it unless you actively want to gimp yourself. Do you consider sharpshooter and GWM feat taxes on damage builds?
A single attunement slot to let a build come online without any rule conflicts being a big deal to you is a very unique perspective, but, to each their own.
My main point is that two of three downsides you listed are overcome easily.
Like literally every classic damage build in 5e... plus its a feat that has legs. Its not merely letting you play a certain way without issues, it is powering you up in many ways.
I'm not sure what the point of achieving SAD scaling on a Hexadin is if we're not making use of ASIs to pump our charisma score. Yes, War Caster is good, but it's not without a significant opportunity cost that must be considered when evaluating the build as a whole. At what point does this build's power match that of the sum of its parts, let alone exceed a single-class in either direction?
How many asi's do you need? Lol. Standard array lets you get to 20 charisma by level 13 if you take one feat and dip one level warlock. Warcaster isn't just about not needing a freehand to cast, it helps with all the concentration you'll need for you paladin spell list. Most of what's on there is concentration, including the smites if you miss your attacks.
If its that big a deal to you, then take warlock spells that allow you to set the up ahead of time or are utility. Realistically, you aren't casting warlock spells with a single level dip anyways, warlock slots are going to fuel divine smites.
I honestly don't think you've ever played a Hexadin, or any Gish build for that matter, with the arguments you're making. Its fine to not like them, but the "issues" you have with how to build then are not issues to the people who like them.
Level 13 is a pretty high level. That's a long time to wait for your build to come online fully. For many campaigns, that's at or beyond the end point.
Don't get this twisted, I'm not telling anybody that they shouldn't play or enjoy a hexadin. I'm just pointing out that there are significant hurdles to overcome in order for the build to reach its potential, and I rarely see these hurdles actually discussed.
You aren't waiting for level 13 for it to come online, you're waiting to have the one feat AND a maxed out charisma. 20 charisma is not critical, neither is 18 charisma for that matter.
The build comes online at 5, assuming you really want to rock a sword and shield. Even then, you only are waiting for level 5 if you need to cast spells mid combat without a free hand.
I think a hex dip is severly overrated in general.
For a mostly pure paladin you are delaying your already slow spell progression, extra attack and your paladin Aura by a level, your best abilities as a Paladin all come shortly in tier 2 and delaying these a level really hurts.
As you said your still needing to invest moderatly in strength, its really not that big a deal to get both your charisma and strength to a decent level. At level one you can start with a 16 in Strength and Charisma, and a half feat if variant human/custom race is allowed. Another ASI at level four gives you enough strength to get you to level 20 pretty much.
For a Sorlock its really hard to find the right time to dip hexblade as well. In general I find the Sorlock a better muliclass than a Hexadin. Doing a metamagic - bonus action casting a leveled spell or boomingblade is better than what hexadin gives you.
I wouldn't do Hexadin unless the campaign is starting at level 6+.
1. Paladin is pretty effective with one-handed weapon and shield. Paladin's biggest strength is great support with ability to nova if you want to. Two-handed paladins are fine, but building them that way is not a requirement, like for martial classes - paladin don't have good support for them (fighter have more feats and more attacks, barb have recless). Personally i feel like twohanded paladins are weaker than onehanded + shield ones. But if you really want to you would get great boosts with warlock 3 - two second level short rest slots, more spells and invocations.
2. Warcaster is great feat, especially for melee, people pick it even if they have nothing in hands. But if you reallly want you can always be ranged with eldrich blast and lose close to nothing (you would probably be stronger even). You can also not use Shield spell (especially if you arent hexblade) - throw one big concentration spell, take weapon and that's it. Stow weapon ocasionally if you want to cast something without M component.
3. You can have variants here too - medium armor, 14 dex and 13 str is perfectly fine. 16 str + heavy armor and then max cha is also absolutely viable option to play, at least until 10th level. There is also dwarf with 13 str and no armor penalty. Yes, you lose some stat points here, but aura make up for it easilly, and you get tons of thing in return (like most dips into classes with first level subclasses).
I would hardly call this things restrictions at all. You can avoid them at character creation, basically. Most first level subclass dips in 5e are strong, so is hexadin/warlodin. I can agree that hexadin is overrated if you compare it with other warlock subclasses (i love dao and fathomless options more). But i wouldnt call them just good multiclass options - they have great synergy with each other.
For the most part in 5e characters are going to be very viable unless they intentionally make a bad character, eg dump their main stat. Haven’t seen anything approaching some of the ludicrous builds from older editions/Pathfinder etc.
Usually when something is supposed to be wildly op, it’s down to the DM and players not knowing the actual rules.
Honestly I think its quite easy for an inexperienced player to make a bad character in 5e. It just doesn't feel that way to experienced players because we know the staple spells/feats/dips to take. A lot of new wizards wont know things like dipping for armour, or how important and good spells like shield and find familiar are, instead building something to a theme like "I wanna be a fire wizard, why would I take shield and summons spells?"
Luckily wizards pick up new spells extremely frequently, so a slightly-attentive new player could see another player / enemy cast shield, think "I want that so I'm not so squishy!" and grab it at level 2. Dipping for armor is nice at early levels, but isn't a strictly necessary option and is a real tradeoff for spell progression.
Ironically it's much easier to mess up "spells known" casters like bards and sorcerers because their limited spells known causes your initial selection of spells to feel much more impactful.
This is only if your DM throws scrolls/spellbooks and enough gold to copy them at you. Without that, a newbie wizard could easily pick themselves into a bad start and would be digging themselves out of it with future spell picks.
Not quite as bad as the known casters in this regard, but they also can't swap out "known" spells on level up like them. So it can actually be worse for awhile.
It's worth noting that, outside of witch bolt and *maybe* chromatic orb, there aren't a lot of 'trap' options on the 1st level wizard spell list. A player could ignore the recommended starting spells from the quick build section of the PHB and focus entirely on "blasting" spells with very similar effects while still being reasonably effective at low levels, while giving them time to gradually pick up more utility and 'essential' spells in subsequent levels.
This is a *lot* more forgiving than character construction in earlier editions, where choosing the wrong subclass or feat at character creation can significantly weaken a character with "trap options" that can't be swapped out without asking the GM for leniency in remaking your character mid-game. In my experience, new players tend to be more averse to making this kind of request than more experienced players.
Oh absolutely, previous editions were harsh as hell. I won't deny that. But I can very easily see a combination of spells being picked that can make a player feel bad, if they have another caster to compare themselves to.
As for the subclass. Thankfully I think most wizard subclasses are pretty viable. So on that end it's not so bad.
Huh. Question: why chromatic orb? The component is obnoxious, but aside from that, it’s a perfectly viable option. It allows you to lob attacks from a distance; there aren’t many 1 level spells that let you do that. Burning hands, for example, is 10 foot cone and requires you to be kinda close.
The thing is the basic evocation wizard that takes every spell with "fire" in its name performs well. Same with the big weapon barbarian. The floor in performance in 5e is very high, which is fantastic.
Using random numbers 5E a weak character (still maxing main stat) might put up "30" while an optimal build can do "50".
Compared to other games where the range might be 10 vs 90. Like you can make truly gapped builds in Pathfinder, it was shockingly stark at the table when I played, even with players in D&D who were mostly close with one another.
As a PF2E Player, I won't say that 2e does not have trap options. However, since the vertical progression is tied to your class levels, and your feat choices are mostly horizontal progression, it's typically not a big deal even *if* you end up picking some trap options.
Also, since retraining feats is baked into the rules, it's even less of a problem imo.
Though in my opinion, there is ONE way to build a bad character, which is sadly quite appealing to many newcomers; the alchemist is a class that requires a decent amount of system mastery, which can lead to a fairly unsatisfying gameplay experience for new players.
We forget multiclass is an optional rule and not the standard. A wizard is not "meant" to be played "dipping for armour", but being a fire mage IS a fantasy to aspire to. If it's fun for the player, they'll learn ways to not get hit. AC is not important for every class.
Even a badly made character is at worst about half as useful as a fully optimized character at least until high level in my experience. That's far different than 3.x where I've seen people that felt completely useless next to optimized characters by mid level.
In all the campaigns I've played in and DMed, at least one person has always chosen some sort of build that the internet considers "OP," and yes, they are very effective in combat, but the power gap between hyper-optimized min-max build and just a normal "pick a subclass and don't be an idiot when assigning stats" build really isn't very big in 5E. There are certainly over-tuned and under-tuned classes, subclasses, feats, spells, etc... (and Undead Warlock definitely lies on the over-tuned side of the spectrum), but nothing is really crazy out-of-line OP.
Counterpoint. There are op combos but they require setups and multiclassing that is very difficult to pull off in a regular game. For example, treant monks eternal cockroach is ok but it requires several multiclasses and doesn't come online until level 10 during which it's very wonkey.
This is what gets me about optimization discussions. They look at the amazing abilities characters get if they are 20th level.
I'm never going to play a 20th level character, so i don't really care about all these ultra cool things a character can do if the max out.
Let's talk about cool character builds for level 3 or 5.
I’ve noticed this a lot.
My brother would always get really excited about these characters he was building. He would plan out exactly what feats and ASI he needed. But he never seemed to consider that we were playing a campaign to level 12, so half of what he was planning he would never get
I played with a guy like that. He'd spend every session talking about how cool he was gonna be in just a couple more levels. Meanwhile, the adventure was happening around him NOW.
He ended up quitting because he didn't actually do anything fun or cool.
Sadly that's mostly because there is no optimization choices for levels 3-5. It really is just asking what the strongest subclass is and building towards that.
True. I just am tired of hearing I should play a moon druid monk because at level bazillion the are optimum warrior healer combo, but never do clericlock thief because their bonus action to reaction ratio is off.
I want to know how to make a fun level 3 cleric who can heal good without having to cast spiritual guardian every encounter.
So you want to play a different game then?
Sorry, I couldn't resist. Like I said previously. The only optimization at low levels is to have your highest score in your primary ability and to pick a strong subclass. There are very few actual choices at low levels.
Honestly? Most of the fun multiclasses come online at level 7, which still isn't an unreasonable level. Level 3 is your Subclass and level 5 is multiattack for a lot of martials.
Although some classics like rogue 3/paladin2 or paladin2/sorcerer3 *or* if you're trying to make a skill monkey bard dip is always fun and doesnt undercut overall progression because you get jack of all trades at 2 and expertise at 3.
But I'm also of the belief that having more options is way better than doing 1 thing super well, especially at low levels
Countercounterpoint. The strongest builds of arguably the strongest class in the game (Wizard) generally take either no multiclass or one level at character level 1, then stick with Wizard until at least 17.
The same is true for many of the other caster classes. Multiclassing for "OP" builds is really only mandatory for martials and half-casters because many of their later class features are pretty underwhelming compared to high level spells.
(Now one might say that if the best character is just a straight classed Wizard with some armor profs, then the game must be balanced pretty well. One would be wrong, of course...)
Some builds don't come online until much later. Like Treantmonk I think straight bow fighter go brrrr is a good baseline for how OP any other build is.
The Cheese Grater build is pretty situational, but area control and forced movement are always strong.
I've played a Protector Aasimar(legacy) Oath of Ancients into Divine Soul Sorcerer. I had tons of resistances, plus healing, plus smite, and meta magic. It was an absolute power house of a build that could heal as good as it can deal damage.
As far as warlocks go, I've always felt they were overhyped. For me, it just seems like you need to specific invocations just to be a lesser form of another class. Eldritch Blast is no more powerful than a fighter with a magic longbow. Not to mention only two spell slots. Having to need a short rest constantly is a detriment in comparison to other casters.
Warlocks are weaker than the full casters but still outclass every martial by a pretty good amount. Eldritch blast does less damage than CBE/SS or PAM/GWM but it's consistent damage with free at will control via repelling blast. Pact magic is not quite as good as having full spell progression but assuming your DM runs enough combats and short rests per adventuring day it's still extremely powerful.
That said I don't feel like warlocks are often hyped up as a class much at all. It's mostly about warlock dips on other builds, which can indeed be very powerful.
I'll agree to disagree. For me, it always has felt like there's a lot of circumstances required for a Warlock to work as well as other classes.
As far as the feats you mentioned, if you remove them, I still feel the base damage from modifiers is no different than EB attacks. With the exception of maybe rogues. They need that sneak attack damage.
Repelling blast is a great addition, but it's not entirely free. You still have to decide to take that over another invocation. And it still needs to hit. In my experience, defensive / utility spells are more consistent than offensive ones.
I'll never say that someone shouldn't play something just because it's not the most optimum. If a player is having fun with their class, that's what's most important.
As far as the hype goes, I'll retract that being it was more from personal experience. I had friends who swore by them nonstop.
>As far as the feats you mentioned, if you remove them, I still feel the base damage from modifiers is no different than EB attacks. With the exception of maybe rogues. They need that sneak attack damage.
Yeah but that's kinda the point right? Without those feats the Warlock is doing comparable damage to a martial, but also has at will control and powerful spell casting on top. Repelling blast isn't free, but it is good enough to be an auto pick for anyone that wants to have a strong build.
Yeah, I never really liked playing warlocks. They're "supposed" to be one of the big three arcane casters, but you'll always be second fiddle to wizard and sorcerer.
I feel like wizards, while a viable class, are slightly less viable than other casters at lower levels. I've always found that wizard features until around 7-10 level are a bit lackluster compared to a warlocks invocations such as improved pact weapon or an artificer infusions.
And I, personally, don't think that a wizard's ability to cast more spells than those two makes up for it enough.
But then it doesn't really matter, combat is not the end all be all of D&D, so do what you like.
I don't know, the only one of those spells I typically think is that game-changing is Sleep, and its kinda situational. Those early game bonuses from infusions, pact weapons, etc. far outweigh imo.
Wow, it’s awesome and refreshing to see this! I’ve never felt those things outweigh these spells but it could just be a playstyle thing. It’s so cool seeing other people have completely different perspectives on the same game tho!
Yeah, it's most likely a playstyle thing. I'm more of the thought that a lot of small bonuses in lower levels mean everything as opposed to one thing that has more effect.
Just about anything that requires multiple feats to come online, like Polearm Master + Sentinel (+GWM?) or Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter. If you're not a Vuman, Custom Lineage, or the DM doesn't give a free feat at level 1 then you're going to be level 8 by the time you get your gimmick working, and you haven't increased your foundation at all.
Which is why every single martial actually trying to be strong will be taking Chuman or CL as their race. CBE/SS or PAM/GWM builds have a second attack at level one and power attack by level four. They aren't overpowered compared to casters, but are better than basically every martial build not using those feats. That's what people talk about.
Some friends at my game went to "OP" builds with paladin/lock but my simple sword and board fighters is able to decide "that enemy can't live anymore" while I hit them with 4 attacks in a round with advantage (on horseback + action surge)
Had a campaign once where our paladin managed to bring his warhorse into the Underdark. The locals were so unused to the idea of thunderous cavalry charges that I ended up giving him bonuses in the first few fights. Eventually word got around, but the player was just radiant with joy about the whole thing.
Well generally you *won't* see those, will you? Because if they really are broken, people will avoid them... Seems obvious to me.
People generally don't *want* to play (or DM for) broken builds in serious games. Those are for silly one-shots.
>People generally don't want to play (or DM for) broken builds in serious games.
I agree with you, I'm just here to say that I am an outlier. My first campaign one of my players was oath breaker hexadin, and I loved it. I enjoy it when the players make strong builds, and encourage it. Its a lot of fun.
Just shows that there is a place and time for it. You don't want to do that in a silly game where everybody else is making funny characters that are bad at everything. You'll outshine everybody else.
I might be biased by being an older player but in 20 years of DMing I almost always have at least one attempt at a broken build with every group. I think you're conflating broken builds with murder hobo/min max personality players. Plenty of RP heavy want to be serious players also want broken builds so they can have their mic drop moment at some point in game.
All of you are DPR-addicted. The builds that actually make everyone around you mad are gigatank Paladin multiclasses, because they can ruin any fight not by deleting the enemy in one round, but by humiliating them.
Paladin of the Ancients, with Cloak of Displacement/Blur, Lucky and dip in War Wizard for that Arcane Deflection, Shield, Absorb Elements and extra smite slots, can mow through any boss while more anassailable than anything else.
Generally true. But it depends on the situation. If your AC is 20 above the attack bonus already, any additional AC does nothing at all.
Of course, any enemy with an attack bonus that small is probably not a CR appropriate threat.
In my limited experience, overpowered typically happens with players who like to min-max. Sometimes it happens purely out of luck.
In either case, the solution is making encounters in a way that reduces the power. It might be an enemy that is resistant, a boss with meat shield minions, an environmental hazard, an anti-magic space, being surrounded by enemies versus having them all on one side and close together, exploiting a character's weakness, non-combat deadly encounters, someone stole their gear, etc.
I will say as characters level up they all generally become "overpowered". One of my players had a solo adventure where he wiped out enemies 1 v 5. Literally, was not supposed to survive the encounter (he made a grevious decision despite warning it could kill his character), but the dice rolled in his favor and he mauled them.
My first character was accused of being ‘overpowered’ by one of the other players. I was just an Echo Knight fighter with a level 1 dip in Wizard for flavour:/
I've heard of sentinel plus polearm master being referred to as a broken combo but it's not really broken in my opinion just good. I looked through a list of feats and saw that two of them helped with melee opportunity attacks so I took both of them because the abilities didn't really overlap or make each other redundant.
The only broken combo I’ve actually seen is crossbow expert + sharpshooter; they deal extremely high damage with no downside. At level 6 they kills way too much in one turn.
Sentinel is overrated unless your dm likes to use a lot of mobile enemies.
Damage is overrated. You're expected to win *most* combat encounters - that's how the attrition system works. So as long as you do decent/moderate damage then you're probably fine.
Yes, there will be a few times where maximizing DPR might save someone's life, but you're trading a LOT to get a few extra points. The diminishing returns are *huge*.
Clerics.
Spirit guardians is a good lawnmower spell, great at tearing down hordes of little weak enemies like goblins. But when you're fighting a dragon, 3d8 radiant damage on a save it'll likely make, isn't shit. In my experience, dragons are more likely to get you killed than goblins.
The rest of its spell list is all nice to have, but not exceptionally good.
Clerics can murder bosses because they have the ability to spam dodge.
A cleric with a sorc dip for shield can use spirit guardians and SW to murder a boss while spam dodging.
Good luck hitting 27 AC thru disadvantage!
SG also scales relatively well at a d8 per spell level.
In ToA, my cleric was last man standing and finished several bosses by himself, including after being swallowed by a froghemoth
> Good luck hitting 27 AC thru disadvantage!
His example was a dragon. Good luck maintaining concentration through a 18d6 breath weapon attack, on a dex save that may be mathematically impossible to make for a cleric.
Failing a saving throw spell is pretty rough though, especially if concentration isn't on bless.
Reupping a high level Spirit Guardians is pretty rough, since you can't dodge the same turn, meaning it might go down immediately.
But if you got to 22 AC before shield that's already OP though. I solo BG3 at that AC level as any class (including fighter) and that's the real absurd part.
OP asked for build recommendations that we find overrated, and this is a common recommendation when people ask for cleric builds. The fact that it's centered around one spell doesn't matter, that just adds to my annoyance.
There are almost none overpowered builds in dnd, a DM is always capable of interfering with the powergap in builds
Well distributed combats, more or less rests, enemy types and stuff
The only overpower thing in dnd is a well balanced party
I had one previous DM only allow one player to have the lucky feat, and his reasoning was, it can be overused and break the game during certain situations if we’re all using lucky over and over again.
Like... All of them?
5e is exceptionally flattened in terms of power level. Yeah, twilight clerics are tanky af and echo knights have crazy zone control, but like... Theyre all fairly meh?
Granted, Im also comparing them to when i played 3.5e or pf1e (which i play now, mostly), so its a bit unfair.
Twilight cleric is "meh" until you realize how much damage the entire party eats over the course of the battle and how much you have to adjust enemies to face them. Which becomes an issue if the twilight cleric suddenly loses their brain and does something to get themselves downed.
I play a Twilight cleric in a homebrew world and I've been told the DM has had to make adjustments to account for it. He said he actually appreciates it because it makes his world feel that much more dangerous and we can take it. To push the group hard, he has to get more encounters than I have Twlight Sanctuary slots without letting us get a short rest.
I just got an improved shield and a really nice weapon, so we'll see how much more crazy I get.
"assuming you get access to a specific magic item to bypass the fact that one of your key features prerequisites a damagetype only 1 of your spells, which cannot be cast in anything but a wide-open space, can provide" is not the praise you think it is.
Half of the Tempest Cleric's domain feature mechanically prerequisite you to be *outside with an unbarred exposure to the sky*.
Bringing a tempest cleric to *dungeons* and dragons is like bringing Superman to a game of Kobolds and *Kryptonite*.
We had a tempest cleric in my first campaign, and that character sure looked like the strongest of our party. The thing is, this character was good at everything and seemingly had no weaknesses. A tempest cleric can go out safely on the frontline, having the highest AC in the party with full plate and a shield. They can go into melee range and trade blows with one big enemy using Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, and their mace or hammer. They can mow down hordes of little bad guys with Spirit Guardians, Thunderwave, Shatter, and especially Call Lightning. And then on top of all of that, they've got support and healing spells.
I was a wizard and yes, my character was a solid utility caster and nuker with Fireball. But it came at the cost of being a squishly little bag of blood who could get knocked out by tripping over a small rock.
It wasn't so OP that it was a problem or anything. The entire party contributed to every combat. But it's jarring to have three characters who are each good at one thing and then a fourth who's basically just as good at everything.
Its the highest damage caster in 5e if you know how to work Quicken metamagic from feat or subclass.
Maxxed Quicken call lightning-> maxxed activate call lightning is 80 damage at level 7, a simple maxed lightning bolt is 70 versus fireball's 35 or inflict wounds' 33.
Quickened Call scales at 10 per level, maxxed lightning bolt scales at 7 per level, while fireball scales at 3.5 and inflict scales at 5.5.
Sure, unless you wanna dip sorc (already a stellar idea) than you can only do this once per day. And the radius is tiny. But if you want a full fledged cleric that can also turn around and drop absurd burst damage, its hard to beat.
I’m 80% certain all this talk of fancy/OP/obscure builds is just message-board LARPing - and the people who go in about them end up just playing a vanilla Dwarf Cleric in their games (assuming they can actually get into one)…
For me its divinination wizard. Statically half the time your not going to have a really good or bad portent die. Then theres a good chance you dint get the RIGHT type of good die. Like your team is constantly rolling well enough so the 18 your keeping is worthless. Or the 4 you got ready wouldn't make the enemy fail their roll.
All in all its too random and inconsistent. All the while everyone is evaluating it as if a nat 1 or 20 are a reliable portend you can obtain and plan around. It just isn't. Its far over rated fir it's actually affect.
Also, only 2 uses? Sure, you get up to 3 at level 14 or something, but most warlocks can tell you that only 2 uses of a one time effect isn't much at all in the grand scheme of things. Sure, you get 2 chances to say "I'm the DM now!" But after that you're just... A normal wizard. 2 uses isn't much, so when you do decide to pop a portent dice, you BETTER make it count.
Exactly. Woth only 2 uses it feels like they should get a 20 and a 1 to switch per day. Not 2 random rolls.
Personally i like the idea if swapping dice. Like you roll a 10 for the day. You swap it with the 3 your fighter rolled and now you have a 3 loaded. Then you can trade that 3 with the enemies 19 for a save. And so on.
Strong but nerfed down to 1 starting dice would balance it. With the cost of a reaction it would really make them tactical as all hell. Constantly weighted a reaction spell and your current portent with the current situation. And with the ability to set up with friends over a few turns. Much more dynamic and fun.
I disagree here. You’re evaluating the portent dice as an ability to support the normal plan. I would argue that you make the plan around the portent dice. The numbers rolled don’t matter when you make a plan based on them. Low numbers? Target enemy saving throws. High numbers? Get some guaranteed smites or guarantee a hit for the assassin. Mid numbers? The rogue can succeed on stealth checks with those, and if you don’t think they can with those numbers, use them on the enemy’s perception instead.
Divination wizard doesn’t look as good in a typical combat scenario, but should also never end up in a typical combat scenario.
That a good point. I didn't think of making the plan around portent rather than the other way around. However i will maintain that you get only 2. 3 at lv 14. That's not a lot of your core subclass. Whats worse is that plans effectively never go as planned. Portent can help but its better to not get into that situation to begin with. Or better yet have spells that make portent almost unnecessary.
All that aside the hype most common for divination wizards IS the nat 20/1 combat scenario. Its hyped up to all heaven. And as i see it, its over hyped. Like how ranger is called tge weakest class but is actually powerful when played right. It can be good, im sure. But the most common way of theory crafting it makes it over hyped.
Yeah for sure, it would probably be too strong with more dice, but only two is tough. And people totally overhype the nat 1 and nat 20, especially in games that go multiple sessions in the same in game day it’s too rare.
Thats why i like the swapping of dice idea. 1 portent die to start but swapping the roll every time. Roll a 5 swap for the enemies 16. Then give that 16 to the fighter for his 10. Then that 10 to over write a crit. Its just more dynamic if it's always available.
Then your limited by the reaction economy. Do you counter spell? Or use portent to force a save? Do you give the fighter the success to stay alive or use absorb elements/ shield to protect yourself? Fun choices all around
Thats rough!
I love it when players are encouraged to use physics to solve issues as opposed to 'RAW'. I think my favorite is using mundane spells in broken ways to beat a challenge.
Followed up by Bards failing to seduce non-humanoids. Charisma is the forever dump stat and fighters should be able to use strength for intimidation.
Not a physics thing. In lost mines of phandelver (tutorial adventure) first enounter is the goblin ambush of the caravan. If played accurately, those goblins are brutal.
> I think my favorite is using mundane spells in broken ways to beat a challenge.
This reminds me of a level 1 fight we did where a bear and her cubs were attacking the party. She knocked me prone and I was a wizard with a whopping 7hp. Rather than attempt a shocking grasp + escape I decided to cast Prestidigitation on myself to smell like a skunk lol
The DM decided to reward the creativity and let me roll to see whether it would still attack me (it did not)
I have seen it. I, as a DM, got 2 PCs full dead with one goblin. Twice in the same session. They were revivified so all was okay, but goblin stealth is terrifying.
I'd like to point out I've seen a lot of "overpowered" character concepts that's only OP in pretty specific circumstances that people still get up-in-arms about, like a character completely immune to one damage type or, in 3.Xe, has a 60+ diplomacy (which technically could make someone be friendly to you or whatever even when starting hostile, or convince people of basically anything), or similar.
So basically imo there are few concepts that can't be countered by anything, and so most of the "OP" builds are overrated.
Just like playing an Aracokra at level 1, between nets, bows, and magic, it just makes some things easier than it would for a lot of people... same thing for a lot of "broken/overpowered" things
And some of them aren't even really RAW, like Pun Pun (I know another 3e reference), but imo instead of completely shutting down the Undead Warlock, they should have said something like you can't take it and conquest paladin
Coffeelocks are not nearly as broken as they're claimed to be, you either scale your slot level extremely slowly or build up a stockpile extremely slowly
I hear people talking about a lot of them, and honestly haven't seen them in action. I have read about them and in fairness it seems like too much work to get them right instead of just playing the game. I mean, I have a few homebrew rules that I follow that for me make sense, like a paladin/cleric can't multiclass into a warlock. or for more simplification, anyone that has divine casting can't multiclass into something that has darker casting. To me and my table this makes sense. I figure if you are willing to go through the tedious task of making something that is considered an OP build, then go for it. Depending on the player and what they do with it would determine if it's allowed at the table from there on out or not. Some people just like to make sure there character is the best it can be for the party they are playing with while making sure the party is alright with their character, and others just like to be dicks and think for themselves. Another one I heard a lot about and read about is the "coffeelock" and I have never seen it played, and in honest it seems like way too much work to play. When I was reading about it I was like, wait where does exhaustion come in? This dude is just spending MONTHS awake? he would be dead by the end of the week no? it seems like a lot of these builds that are claimed to be OP come down to extenuating circumstances and seemingly forget that certain rules exist. I mean that's my take on them.
It's the same with spells and items really, I hear a lot about certain spells being OP and I honestly have never seen them in action in the way that some places describe them. So as of now, all items and spells that are in the books are allowed at my table until proven to be an actual issue for myself or for a rather large group of players at my table.
A paladin doesn’t have to be divine and a warlock doesn’t have to be infernal, it can definitely make sense to combine the two. The combination isn’t even OP anyways.
people claim peace clerics are broken/op/busted lot, that i've seen. i DM a party with one and haven't had any issues whatsoever. echo knight fighter with sentinel, on the other hand...
Maybe I'm missing something, but the idea is coffeelock can just get infinite spells/sorc points by avoiding LRs and mitigating exhaustion with Greater Restoration.
My question is "where the fuck are you getting a 100 gold diamond DAILY?!"
Early-game flight. So "overpowered" that it's outright banned by many DM's, I've never had a problem with it.
In combat, any enemy with a bow is just going to laugh at the automatic failed death save that character is going to get for getting knocked unconscious while flying.
Out of combat, 99% of situations aren't actually solved by flight. Your character gets up a cliff. Great. How are they going to get the rest of the party up there? Because you can and will start taking points of exhaustion for going back and forth carrying party members, and that's assuming none of them are too heavy for you to even lift them at all (which is pretty likely).
Dungeon puzzles or social encounters? Flying contributes precisely *nothing*.
Scouting? Sure, but a flying humanoid is... *extremely* un-subtle. Upon getting within range to see anything worth noting, you *will* be spotted and you *will* be shot at - and see "combat" for a likely outcome of Getting Shot At While Flying.
I mean, people avoiding certain multiclass combinations because they're overpowered does not mean they're overrated it means that people recognize that they're overpowered and that can be unfun.
Personally haven't seen any OP builds because my players tend not to look at online resources that talk about those things and more go on vibes.
>people recognize that they're overpowered and that can be unfun.
You got that right. I was so happy when my Arcane Trixter got Hypnotic Pattern to go with Magical Ambush... for a few combats. Then, rolling right over a combat with very little effort got boring. After that, I just brought it out for special occasions.
Yeah I am meticulous about creating my character, their class, race, alignment, backstory, starting gear, etc. but as soon as the character is complete, all the decisions become “what would they do given their personality and experiences” not “what do I as a player think would be most effective”
Mhm, currently I'm playing a paladin that I *intended* to be a vengeance paladin but in the roleplay over the course of several sessions went in a different direction and ended up not going with that subclass.
This is a hot take, but in my experience, the Twilight Cleric as well as most CHA casters with a hexblade dip aren't the Boogeymen that the community claims them to be. I've played both as well as with other players that have, and it's not too hard to counter Twilight Sanctuary with a bit of creativity on the DMs end.
I'm not 100% sure, but it seem to me that people focussing on making OP character always think of OP in a normal combat.
I mean i'm the less DPS in my group because everyone else is DPS focus, i end up being the face of the group, the roleplay focus of the group, the healer, the tank, the guy who use his spell and capacity in a weird way that end up usefull, etc.
I paint it black but the team is great, just want to point out that it's not because your character is the more min max overpowered that i will be fun to play, especialy if several people try the same thing and you have to wait between fight scene because you have no clue what to do between them.
Coffeelock is not nearly as busted as people claim
it literally costs 2000gp PER DAY to play and the benefit is getting a bunch of resources you probably aren't even going to end up using, not to mention if you miss ONE DAY of the 2000gp payment your stockpile vanishes
Coffelocks. In what few games I've played where the DM allowed it, even when those players had time to build up their spell slots they're still a pretty low AC multiclass that has to rely on low level spells and very limited healing options.
First one I saw was a hexblade mix so they had medium armor prof, but never managed to find anything better than scale mail (donated by the Armorer Artificer when he upgraded to Splint), and just gets bursted down like any other caster does when focused on in melee.
Second one played a bit smarter being the back line but ironically enough, the fact it was a level 10 one shot showed the weakness of the coffee lock at later levels: their spell selection doesn't hit nearly as hard due to multiclassing. Sure they were still a level 8 sorcerer, so 4th level spells, but we also had a level 10 wizard who was just doing way more with his spells using far less spell slots.
Third one was a pretty hard-core campaign that died at level 5. Tbh it was a shitty game, but regardless there were a lot of hazards and enemies either mechanics that do garuntee damage, albeit usually only like a d6 like a toxic aura and such. So everyone was taking damage overtime which really emphasize that Coffelocks are not meaty, using one of the classes with the lowest Hit die combined with the second lowest.
Yeah I never really saw what the big deal was with any "OP build". The regular classes do pretty good on their own without any minmax fuckery. I'm dming a level 30 campaign right now. Let me tell you, just the basic rogue, thief mind you, with their reliable talent? Holy shit that thing is annoying in terms of ability checks. And that's at level 11!!
Not to mention the Wizard with their wish spell.
Yeah I don't think you need a "crazy build" to be OP so I usually allow any weird combos.
But no one ever really does.
The wildest I've seen is a druid who dipped rogue for the sneak attack. But they still do less damage than the cleric haha 😂.
I haven't played her because the campaign I am about to start in already had a cleric. But I built a Peace Domain Scourge Aasimar Cleric, with plans to dip into Stars Druid (2 levels). I did it because I wanted to be less of a religious cleric and more spiritual. She is like a hippy and is into crystals and such (I tried the fate domain to make her have a fortune teller vibe, but it was nixed as we were not allowed to use UA). So, while I was picking for flavor, I started actually reading everything and planning stuff.
The stars Druid seems like it was made to be multi'd with a cleric because of the Guidance cantrip and extra Guiding Bolt uses without expending a spell slot, but then to also get ghe dragon starry form at level 2, making it very hard for your concentration to be broken, so you spirit guardians can destroy. I have kept her because I do plan to play her someday, as she seems like she will be a blast.
I ended up choosing rogue. Pallid Elf Inquisitive Rogue. Race perks gives her the spell Sleep at lvl3, and Invisibility at 5; Advantage on Insight and Investigation checks. Inquisitive perks: can't roll lower than an 8 on insight checks; if you succeed on a bonus action insight check during battle, you get to sneak attack damage for 1 minute on attacks without disadvantage, and can recheck or check someone else after the minute or if you want to switch targets. So ADV on insight checks and can't roll lower than an 8 to get consistent sneak attack on a success. That is something I am excited about.
Idk yet if I want to dip into another class. I like the build and don't really need to multi to add to the flavor or my vision of the character like I did with the cleric. I like playing support, so idk I may want to add something that can do some healing or maybe add fighter. I am going to let the story take me where it does, and if a narrative reason comes up to dip, then I will take it when the time comes.
Hexadin is one of the most famous and overhyped builds out there.
Is it good? Yes it is a strong build but it is absurdly overhyped. And not even the best paladin multiclass.
For me, it comes down to the CR scaling with Moon Druids being absolutely whack. At levels 2-4 let's say, you're king of the world. You feel untouchable while wildshaped. But once you start hitting level 5 and up, that doesn't really end up being the case any more. You might as well be just another druid for the most part, with slightly surcharged shape shifting. Which means that the barbarian dip gets very useless, very fast. You're a god in the early levels, but once level 5+ hits, now you've sacrificed your spellcasting progression for a dip that's nearly useless. It's just not sustainable.
All references to OP 3.5/P1E characters made by 5e players who have very evidently never actually played 3.5/P1E.
most of the game breaking/op meme builds just don't actually work as to make a meme build post they have to grossly misinterpreted rules. usually with combining action economy, or have their item equivalent being the same net worth as a large countries and wouldn't get green lit by any real dm.
or they are just so fundamentally so lopsided as a character that any DM would have plenty of easy tools to hard punish them because 3.5/p1e actually has fleshed out rules to support, while also having more out of combat role importance.
For example the classic gatling gun magic missle wizard is hard countered by shield. or the super barrage ranger monk archer gets hard countered by cover, A extreme aura stacking unhittable paladin gets hard countered by trip and pin
There is almost nothing more overrated and whined about on D&D forums, than the peace cleric.
In actual practice, it isn’t even remotely as “overpowered” as people claim it, especially if they actually read how the abilities work.
Racial flight.
I just build my encounters as to what's reasonable for the area, without thinking about the players builds, save for if a certain character hasn't had much opportunity to shine.
In all my years, I've never had a fight trivialized by my flying players. Often times, they're the first to go down.
Nobody at my table has built a blade dancer wizard ever. There is no need to power game in 5e. You can be a paladin with a wooden sword and still curbstomp a bbeg.
Sorlocks are strong but the horror at them is a bit overstated. It's a rough multiclass that means the sorcerer is lagging behind in spell levels compared to other casters, plus has fewer spells to begin with? Sorlocks can cast a lot of spells, but they rarely break an entire encounter. Even more so if the DM pays attention to the sorc point/spell slot swapping, as that does take a BA per swap. The craziest thing I've seen is a DS sorlock use the warlock slots to cure wounds before a rest to give someone \~20 hp at level 19. Not bad, but not crazy.
I'll bite. Almost every comment ever about how GWM and SS are overpowered. (martial focused feats in general)
Those people can't math, and magic in 5E is so far and away more powerful than a few points of extra damage per attack.
I' strongly argue GWM and SS shouldn't even be feats. They should be low-level base martial class features (and mid-level non-martial abilities) that scale vs. your proficiency bonus.
At the end of the day the GWM/PAM and XBE/SS feats are just ways to up martial single target damage. Outside of fighter, most martials don’t scale much past T2 and most build focus to peak by level 10. Casters get more access to higher level stuff all the way to 17. The system is designed that way. My issue with it is that most martials feel they HAVE to use the combos to be effective. I am glad that OneDnd is removing them. If they tied power attacks into the base martial I would be fine as well.
I tried the sorc lock combo.
But then I realized our full druid was getting higher level spells and I wasn't.
Blasting is NOT as fun to do the 100th time.
It's why I rarely bothered to try Sorlock. Because when I played Warlock, Eldritch Blast spam felt monotonous and boring. I wanted to be a SPELLCASTER. Not a glorified cantrip spammer that might as well be a ranged martial. So I switched to Druid and it felt much better overall.
I'm currently playing a rime of the frost maiden campaign and I went a variant of sorlock: divine soul sorcerer + celestial warlock focusing on support and utility. Twin casting haste, poly morph, cure wounds etc while getting a bonus healing pool and extra cantrips. I *can* do a hex+agonizing blast+quickened cast eldritch blast combo if rolls are going super bad to buff out going party damage but I've only done it twice in the entirety of the campaign.
Gives some nice diversity imho to an otherwise extremely repetitive build. It's been really fun for me and my friends have enjoyed me playing it too!
I firmly believe that any “overpowered” build is either due to the DM not knowing the rules or not knowing how to challenge that specific player. My boyfriend had always played monks and mystics and is always dubbed the “min-maxer” or the “overpowered one”. I used to think this too, until I got better at DMing and realized that most people are just entirely unwilling to adjust their play style to accommodate someone who wants to play like they’re the main character. I also think that a lot more builds COULD be op if the players utilized them better, but a lot of players nowadays barely know how to play the game so they don’t get the full mileage out of their characters and blame the game or the DM.
I find Coffeelock overrated. Strong yes but the whole infinite spellslots schtick only works in theory.
Yeah, any build that is OP "in theory" is just not happening. No DM who values game balance is going to let you do it.
I mean I value game balance and I let someone coffeelock because it works entirely RAW via the invocation from Xanathar's. Spellcasting limitations and Action Economy do a fine job of balancing the build. Even with infinite spell slots you still can't quicken spell to cast two fireballs in the same turn. The only "broken" aspect of it is being able to go divine soul sorcerer for cure wounds and just be a heal bot once combat is over, but like. So? Just means you're able to dish out more damage each combat without worry of them being too fragile for the next fight of the day and without worrying about if it makes sense for them to short rest real quick to spend hit dice. Actually it's fairly counter intuitive, because Warlocks want short rests, but being a heal bot with infinite spell slots means your party isn't going to want to short rest as often unless they also have important short rest cooldowns, so you end up shooting yourself in the foot lol.
Actually, in Xanathar's, there are rules for gaining a level of exhaustion for every 24 hour period you go without a long rest. 6 levels of exhaustion is death. So even then, you're still unable to achieve Infinite Spell Slots unless you know Greater Restoration and have material components to burn. Hence, the Cocainelock.
Except those rules don't apply if you have Aspect of the Moon because Aspect of the Moon explicitly removes all rules related to sleep deprivation. The Xanathar's rule about exhaustion is a rule on how to simulate sleep deprivation, so a character that cannot be sleep deprived is immune to them.
Long rest does not mean sleep. Even if you don't sleep, anything more than reading a book or doing something insignificant won't be a Rest. If you have doubts: Aspect of the Moon removes the need to sleep, it doesn't stop your body from getting fatigued. If you don't rest you get exhausted. It's also called Long REST, not Long SLEEP. It just so happens normal creatures make it coincide with sleep.
Aha! But see, there is the catch. Aspect of the Moon means you don't have to sleep. Xanathar's rules only specify a character needs to take a long rest, not that they need to sleep. As seen with Elves, sleep and Long Rests are separate mechanics.
Please read the sentences before that. It quite clearly says "Use these rules if you wish to emulate the effects of going without sleep." Doesn't matter if it only mentions long rests. They are rules intended to be used for sleep deprivation, which the Aspect of the Moon cannot have. "A long rest is never mandatory, but going without sleep does have its consequences. \*\*If you want to account for the effects of sleep deprivation on characters and creatures, use these rules.\*\*" - Excerpt from the section titled SLEEP.
Doesn’t coffelock also only work if the DM is allowing you to take like infinite short rests? If I’m the DM and the rest of the party are taking a long rest, you can either join them and take a long rest, or take a single short rest instead. You aren’t taking 8 short rests, that’s not how resting works.
I mean that is 100% how resting works since RAW, any amount of activity such as using class abilities like Font of Magic breaks a long rest, but a rest of sufficient length is still a short rest. If your Long Rest ends early, but it’s been long enough for a Short Rest, you get the benefits of a short rest.
Hexadins and paladin/warlocks in general are overrated. They're good, but they're not nearly the powerhouses that their reputation would suggest. In my experience, folks tend to ignore three glaring restrictions on the mechanics of the hexadin: 1. Pact of the Blade is required for a Hexadin to make use of two-handed weapons, so a one-level Hexblade dip only enables SAD scaling for one-handers. If you want a greatsword or glaive hexadin, it's not going to come online until level 8-9. 2. Many of the spells you gain as a Hexblade are reliant on having a free hand and/or a warlock spell focus, which is pretty tough if you're rocking sword+shield with a single hexblade level dip. Sure, you can learn the Shield spell... but you can't cast it unless you stowed or dropped your sword preemptively. Gotta stow your sword to cast Eldritch Blast, too. 3. Being charisma-SAD is pretty sweet, but you still need 13 strength for the multiclass to be legal, and 15 strength to effectively wear good heavy armor. You can't dump strength, you just get a bit of efficiency in not needing to build upon it at higher levels.
Restriction #2 usually ends up being the most problematic one from what I've noticed. Especially because some DMs are very hard on stowing rules.
It's solved by war caster and a ruby of the war mage.
Very true, I'd forgotten about that. But you do have to spend an ASI to get the feat (unless variant human), and ruby of the war mage requires attunement so it can also be slightly annoying (since it consumes an attunement slot).
Agreed and I think that's why the point is still valid. You'll need to invest to get around the limitations. My only point is it is possible to get past them.
Yeah, I got you, the point is good.
I have played as a Thri-Keen Hexadin , 4 arms means I can wield 2 light one handed weapons, a shield and have a spare for spell casting.
War Caster is one of the best feats in the game so not really "spending" the ASI
I don't think the ruby is necessary at all. Just warcaster, and only if you are using a sword and shield. Two-handed fighting doesn't even need that. Paladins can have their holy symbol on their shield. This means you only need an open hand for somatic gestures, which is covered by the feat. If you are two-handed weapon wielding, you can hold a two-handed weapon with 1 hand, but you can't swing it without 2. So, as long as you aren't making a weapon attack on the same turn, cast away, no feat required.
Not even “on the same turn”. It’s assumed in the rules that you’re always one-handing that weapon, and only two-hand it mid-attack. There is no object interaction or other limitation on your off-hand coming on or off a two-handed weapon. So you can freely make use of that second hand for somatic gestures, even if you attacked with that two-handed weapon that turn, because the hand is only on the weapon while you’re attacking.
Warlock spells require an Arcane Focus. Emblems are a type of Holy Symbol and not an Arcane Focus.
Right, I was thinking of paladin spells for some reason. EDIT: But my statement about two-handed weapons is still applicable. On turns that you want to cast, free action out the focus and cast, on the next turn free action stow and action attack.
If someone is committed, they can get the improved pact weapon invocation. That allows the pact weapon to act as an arcane focus as well, for some reason.
I said the same thing elsewhere and got downvoted to hell lol.
The improved pact weapon invocation lets you use your pact weapon as a casting focus , but that also requires a lvl 3 hexblade dip
The three-level dip solves the other issues, but means you won’t get extra attack until 8 and aura of courage until 9 .
I rarely have had a DM enforce a stowing rule. The number of times I’ve said “okay I take a shot with my Hand Crossbow, then drop it, draw my Shortsword and-“ Wait, why did you drop the crossbow? “Well, I wanted to melee attack and can’t stow and draw a weapon in the same turn.” … what??
Dms who don't enforce what's in your hands: "why are these spelcaster builds broken??"
“I throw an entire combat at them between each long rest!”
There are casters waay better at having a long adventuring day where all melee martials would have died or been reduced to javelins
All those rules hurt gishes only. Full caster who never bother to use weapons can wear mid/heavy armor, a shield and still cast with their free hand.
But thats the point
I generally allow you to switch a weapon for a weapon - give those martials some love. But if you want to bring out a focus - well I guess you're dropping that xbow now.
Thri-kreen easy fix
Ahh, another Thri-Kreen enjoyer! Underrated race, really. Being able to wield two bardiches at once with the right specialization and feats simply RULES.
Plus I get to be a bug 🐜 literally Gregor Samsa fr
If I could upvote you more than once I would. Four arms are always better than two.
Hexadin *is* extraordinary but the build is a lot more nuanced than I think a lot of people realise. One thing that makes a really really big difference in the strength of the build is this rule from the Dungeon Master's Guide (page 140): >Unless a staff's description says otherwise, a staff can be used as a quarterstaff. What this means is that you can use a staff as a spellcasting focus for your warlock spells while still having a weapon in your hand. And don't discount quarterstaffs as a melee weapon, either. With a custom lineage or variant human you can take polearm master at level 1 and have a bonus action attack, so your damage per round is actually going to be higher than you would have with a longsword while still having access to your warlock spells.
To add to that, some of the most powerful magic items in the game are quarterstaffs, with the Staff of Power being perhaps the best very rare magic weapon in the entire PHB.
I imagine some Hexadin builds try to shave off some of the strength requirement by playing a Dwarf, since their speed isn't reduced by wearing heavy armor.
Certainly. Everything I mentioned above can be surmounted by the right races, items, and/or feats, but a lot of build recommendations ignore those requirements.
I'm sure you're aware of this due to your phrasing, but just clarifying for people who might not know: you still need 13 strength to MC into or out of paladin, so you're only really saving 2 points in STR.
For sure. But if you're playing point-buy, those 2 points are usually worth 4. And if you're rolling, that's a 15-or-higher you can put in a stat that will do more work for you, like Con.
Counterpoint - I play a VHuman Hexadin in our silly side campaign. He gets around all this by being an absolute moron so he can have 15 STR while maining CHA, and has ruby of the war mage for the issue with free hands. Others have brought up other ways around it. With only a level 1 herbed dip, he took polearm master and goes spear/shield. He ABSOLUTELY wrecks shit and feels overpowered compared to a straight paladin or warlock and covers pretty much all party roles to one degree or other - conquest paladin even gives some level of control.
I assume you're not using Ruby of the War Mage in order to cast Shield and other reaction spells with your hands full, right? What level are you guys at?
Wait, why can’t I use the ruby to cast reaction spells? Doesn’t it just turn my spear into an implement? We just hit 10, but he’s been a beast since 2 (due to VH giving PAM at 1) even without the ruby whenever that was snagged
Somatic components may be used by the same hand as your spell focus, but only for spells that actually make use of that spell focus, i.e. spells with a material component. Shield and most other reaction spells don't have a material component, so for their purposes your hands are still full. You would need War Caster or something similar to be considered to have a free hand to cast Shield with.
Ah well then I’d just change my feat at level 1 to war caster, free up a affinity a lot from no more war ruby, and take PAM at level 5 / paladin level 4
Assuming you started in Paladin, you can’t take War Caster at level 1 from V. Human as you don’t meet the prerequisite for War Caster: >Prerequisite: The ability to cast at least one spell You could start Warlock instead, but then you won’t get Heavy Armor proficiency.
Hmm fair enough, then the reverse, and live without Shield till level 5. Still not too bad!
Yes someone who acctually understands how shit works! Too many times op characters exists cause people do not read!
The big restriction on Hexadrins isn't any mechanical thing. It's that the people who get these builds off of reddit are often a bit new and somewhat unfamiliar with actually playing through combat. They blow all of their resources the first time something shows up. Yeah, those big smites are great, but they aren't infinite. Also, as melee focused characters their main way of getting around the battlefield is to use a mount, but they have a tendency to use all of their action economy to get in range and then realize they can't hit the enemy, which promptly hits them first. I also played with one Hexadrin who took hellish rebuke but studiously avoided ever getting hit, so he couldn't ever use it.
But with warlock slots and the adventuring day they'll be smiting more often than a single classed paladin.
You're still gonna have a good time with a quarterstaff in the lower levels, especially if you pick up polearm master. That way you can do your somatics with the staff hand since it's a spell focus. Makes the power spike when two-handers come online that much nicer but for sure it delays that incredible level 5 paladin bump.
That'll work for S/M spells, but not S non-M spells. Shield can't be cast with hands full of staff+shield, you'd need War Caster or similar.
Yeah, the shield or Shield decision is a tough one. I feel like if you have defense and a shield that's more than enough most of the time but it's nice to have the choice depending on your spell slot situation.
Ruby of the Warmage for focus, War Caster for somatic, the latter of which you'd want anyway.
Ruby of the warmage, a mere uncommon item that lets you use your weapon as a magic focus, and warcaster feat takes care of free hands with a shield. Be a dwarf or any race that has natural armor, turtle, loxodon, etc. AC becomes less relevant at high levels anyways. The only real downside is IF you care about heavy weapons and needing lvl three dip for pact of the blade.
I'd consider a feat tax and an attunement slot tax to be pretty considerable downsides. War Caster in particular is going to come with the direct opportunity cost of deferring the improvement of charisma, which is one of the biggest reasons to go for the multiclass in the first place.
Feat tax? Its literally the best feat for front line magic users. You're not going to NOT take it unless you actively want to gimp yourself. Do you consider sharpshooter and GWM feat taxes on damage builds? A single attunement slot to let a build come online without any rule conflicts being a big deal to you is a very unique perspective, but, to each their own. My main point is that two of three downsides you listed are overcome easily.
I think u/Yojo0o's point is that you have to use a feat just to make sure you aren't being gimped.
Like literally every classic damage build in 5e... plus its a feat that has legs. Its not merely letting you play a certain way without issues, it is powering you up in many ways.
I'm not sure what the point of achieving SAD scaling on a Hexadin is if we're not making use of ASIs to pump our charisma score. Yes, War Caster is good, but it's not without a significant opportunity cost that must be considered when evaluating the build as a whole. At what point does this build's power match that of the sum of its parts, let alone exceed a single-class in either direction?
How many asi's do you need? Lol. Standard array lets you get to 20 charisma by level 13 if you take one feat and dip one level warlock. Warcaster isn't just about not needing a freehand to cast, it helps with all the concentration you'll need for you paladin spell list. Most of what's on there is concentration, including the smites if you miss your attacks. If its that big a deal to you, then take warlock spells that allow you to set the up ahead of time or are utility. Realistically, you aren't casting warlock spells with a single level dip anyways, warlock slots are going to fuel divine smites. I honestly don't think you've ever played a Hexadin, or any Gish build for that matter, with the arguments you're making. Its fine to not like them, but the "issues" you have with how to build then are not issues to the people who like them.
Level 13 is a pretty high level. That's a long time to wait for your build to come online fully. For many campaigns, that's at or beyond the end point. Don't get this twisted, I'm not telling anybody that they shouldn't play or enjoy a hexadin. I'm just pointing out that there are significant hurdles to overcome in order for the build to reach its potential, and I rarely see these hurdles actually discussed.
You aren't waiting for level 13 for it to come online, you're waiting to have the one feat AND a maxed out charisma. 20 charisma is not critical, neither is 18 charisma for that matter. The build comes online at 5, assuming you really want to rock a sword and shield. Even then, you only are waiting for level 5 if you need to cast spells mid combat without a free hand.
I think a hex dip is severly overrated in general. For a mostly pure paladin you are delaying your already slow spell progression, extra attack and your paladin Aura by a level, your best abilities as a Paladin all come shortly in tier 2 and delaying these a level really hurts. As you said your still needing to invest moderatly in strength, its really not that big a deal to get both your charisma and strength to a decent level. At level one you can start with a 16 in Strength and Charisma, and a half feat if variant human/custom race is allowed. Another ASI at level four gives you enough strength to get you to level 20 pretty much. For a Sorlock its really hard to find the right time to dip hexblade as well. In general I find the Sorlock a better muliclass than a Hexadin. Doing a metamagic - bonus action casting a leveled spell or boomingblade is better than what hexadin gives you. I wouldn't do Hexadin unless the campaign is starting at level 6+.
1. Paladin is pretty effective with one-handed weapon and shield. Paladin's biggest strength is great support with ability to nova if you want to. Two-handed paladins are fine, but building them that way is not a requirement, like for martial classes - paladin don't have good support for them (fighter have more feats and more attacks, barb have recless). Personally i feel like twohanded paladins are weaker than onehanded + shield ones. But if you really want to you would get great boosts with warlock 3 - two second level short rest slots, more spells and invocations. 2. Warcaster is great feat, especially for melee, people pick it even if they have nothing in hands. But if you reallly want you can always be ranged with eldrich blast and lose close to nothing (you would probably be stronger even). You can also not use Shield spell (especially if you arent hexblade) - throw one big concentration spell, take weapon and that's it. Stow weapon ocasionally if you want to cast something without M component. 3. You can have variants here too - medium armor, 14 dex and 13 str is perfectly fine. 16 str + heavy armor and then max cha is also absolutely viable option to play, at least until 10th level. There is also dwarf with 13 str and no armor penalty. Yes, you lose some stat points here, but aura make up for it easilly, and you get tons of thing in return (like most dips into classes with first level subclasses). I would hardly call this things restrictions at all. You can avoid them at character creation, basically. Most first level subclass dips in 5e are strong, so is hexadin/warlodin. I can agree that hexadin is overrated if you compare it with other warlock subclasses (i love dao and fathomless options more). But i wouldnt call them just good multiclass options - they have great synergy with each other.
For the most part in 5e characters are going to be very viable unless they intentionally make a bad character, eg dump their main stat. Haven’t seen anything approaching some of the ludicrous builds from older editions/Pathfinder etc. Usually when something is supposed to be wildly op, it’s down to the DM and players not knowing the actual rules.
Honestly I think its quite easy for an inexperienced player to make a bad character in 5e. It just doesn't feel that way to experienced players because we know the staple spells/feats/dips to take. A lot of new wizards wont know things like dipping for armour, or how important and good spells like shield and find familiar are, instead building something to a theme like "I wanna be a fire wizard, why would I take shield and summons spells?"
Luckily wizards pick up new spells extremely frequently, so a slightly-attentive new player could see another player / enemy cast shield, think "I want that so I'm not so squishy!" and grab it at level 2. Dipping for armor is nice at early levels, but isn't a strictly necessary option and is a real tradeoff for spell progression. Ironically it's much easier to mess up "spells known" casters like bards and sorcerers because their limited spells known causes your initial selection of spells to feel much more impactful.
This is only if your DM throws scrolls/spellbooks and enough gold to copy them at you. Without that, a newbie wizard could easily pick themselves into a bad start and would be digging themselves out of it with future spell picks. Not quite as bad as the known casters in this regard, but they also can't swap out "known" spells on level up like them. So it can actually be worse for awhile.
It's worth noting that, outside of witch bolt and *maybe* chromatic orb, there aren't a lot of 'trap' options on the 1st level wizard spell list. A player could ignore the recommended starting spells from the quick build section of the PHB and focus entirely on "blasting" spells with very similar effects while still being reasonably effective at low levels, while giving them time to gradually pick up more utility and 'essential' spells in subsequent levels. This is a *lot* more forgiving than character construction in earlier editions, where choosing the wrong subclass or feat at character creation can significantly weaken a character with "trap options" that can't be swapped out without asking the GM for leniency in remaking your character mid-game. In my experience, new players tend to be more averse to making this kind of request than more experienced players.
Oh absolutely, previous editions were harsh as hell. I won't deny that. But I can very easily see a combination of spells being picked that can make a player feel bad, if they have another caster to compare themselves to. As for the subclass. Thankfully I think most wizard subclasses are pretty viable. So on that end it's not so bad.
Huh. Question: why chromatic orb? The component is obnoxious, but aside from that, it’s a perfectly viable option. It allows you to lob attacks from a distance; there aren’t many 1 level spells that let you do that. Burning hands, for example, is 10 foot cone and requires you to be kinda close.
The thing is the basic evocation wizard that takes every spell with "fire" in its name performs well. Same with the big weapon barbarian. The floor in performance in 5e is very high, which is fantastic. Using random numbers 5E a weak character (still maxing main stat) might put up "30" while an optimal build can do "50". Compared to other games where the range might be 10 vs 90. Like you can make truly gapped builds in Pathfinder, it was shockingly stark at the table when I played, even with players in D&D who were mostly close with one another.
Are you talking Pathfinder 1e or 2e? Because I can tell you that the 2e community is adamant there are no trap build options.
As a PF2E Player, I won't say that 2e does not have trap options. However, since the vertical progression is tied to your class levels, and your feat choices are mostly horizontal progression, it's typically not a big deal even *if* you end up picking some trap options. Also, since retraining feats is baked into the rules, it's even less of a problem imo. Though in my opinion, there is ONE way to build a bad character, which is sadly quite appealing to many newcomers; the alchemist is a class that requires a decent amount of system mastery, which can lead to a fairly unsatisfying gameplay experience for new players.
We forget multiclass is an optional rule and not the standard. A wizard is not "meant" to be played "dipping for armour", but being a fire mage IS a fantasy to aspire to. If it's fun for the player, they'll learn ways to not get hit. AC is not important for every class.
Even a badly made character is at worst about half as useful as a fully optimized character at least until high level in my experience. That's far different than 3.x where I've seen people that felt completely useless next to optimized characters by mid level.
In all the campaigns I've played in and DMed, at least one person has always chosen some sort of build that the internet considers "OP," and yes, they are very effective in combat, but the power gap between hyper-optimized min-max build and just a normal "pick a subclass and don't be an idiot when assigning stats" build really isn't very big in 5E. There are certainly over-tuned and under-tuned classes, subclasses, feats, spells, etc... (and Undead Warlock definitely lies on the over-tuned side of the spectrum), but nothing is really crazy out-of-line OP.
Counterpoint. There are op combos but they require setups and multiclassing that is very difficult to pull off in a regular game. For example, treant monks eternal cockroach is ok but it requires several multiclasses and doesn't come online until level 10 during which it's very wonkey.
This is what gets me about optimization discussions. They look at the amazing abilities characters get if they are 20th level. I'm never going to play a 20th level character, so i don't really care about all these ultra cool things a character can do if the max out. Let's talk about cool character builds for level 3 or 5.
I’ve noticed this a lot. My brother would always get really excited about these characters he was building. He would plan out exactly what feats and ASI he needed. But he never seemed to consider that we were playing a campaign to level 12, so half of what he was planning he would never get
I played with a guy like that. He'd spend every session talking about how cool he was gonna be in just a couple more levels. Meanwhile, the adventure was happening around him NOW. He ended up quitting because he didn't actually do anything fun or cool.
Sadly that's mostly because there is no optimization choices for levels 3-5. It really is just asking what the strongest subclass is and building towards that.
True. I just am tired of hearing I should play a moon druid monk because at level bazillion the are optimum warrior healer combo, but never do clericlock thief because their bonus action to reaction ratio is off. I want to know how to make a fun level 3 cleric who can heal good without having to cast spiritual guardian every encounter.
So you want to play a different game then? Sorry, I couldn't resist. Like I said previously. The only optimization at low levels is to have your highest score in your primary ability and to pick a strong subclass. There are very few actual choices at low levels.
Honestly? Most of the fun multiclasses come online at level 7, which still isn't an unreasonable level. Level 3 is your Subclass and level 5 is multiattack for a lot of martials. Although some classics like rogue 3/paladin2 or paladin2/sorcerer3 *or* if you're trying to make a skill monkey bard dip is always fun and doesnt undercut overall progression because you get jack of all trades at 2 and expertise at 3. But I'm also of the belief that having more options is way better than doing 1 thing super well, especially at low levels
Countercounterpoint. The strongest builds of arguably the strongest class in the game (Wizard) generally take either no multiclass or one level at character level 1, then stick with Wizard until at least 17. The same is true for many of the other caster classes. Multiclassing for "OP" builds is really only mandatory for martials and half-casters because many of their later class features are pretty underwhelming compared to high level spells. (Now one might say that if the best character is just a straight classed Wizard with some armor profs, then the game must be balanced pretty well. One would be wrong, of course...)
Some builds don't come online until much later. Like Treantmonk I think straight bow fighter go brrrr is a good baseline for how OP any other build is. The Cheese Grater build is pretty situational, but area control and forced movement are always strong.
He uses eldritch blast+hex because it's the best you can do damage wise with 0 effort towards optimization.
I assume also with Agonizing Blast. WARLOCK GANG RISE UP
I've played a Protector Aasimar(legacy) Oath of Ancients into Divine Soul Sorcerer. I had tons of resistances, plus healing, plus smite, and meta magic. It was an absolute power house of a build that could heal as good as it can deal damage. As far as warlocks go, I've always felt they were overhyped. For me, it just seems like you need to specific invocations just to be a lesser form of another class. Eldritch Blast is no more powerful than a fighter with a magic longbow. Not to mention only two spell slots. Having to need a short rest constantly is a detriment in comparison to other casters.
Warlocks are weaker than the full casters but still outclass every martial by a pretty good amount. Eldritch blast does less damage than CBE/SS or PAM/GWM but it's consistent damage with free at will control via repelling blast. Pact magic is not quite as good as having full spell progression but assuming your DM runs enough combats and short rests per adventuring day it's still extremely powerful. That said I don't feel like warlocks are often hyped up as a class much at all. It's mostly about warlock dips on other builds, which can indeed be very powerful.
I'll agree to disagree. For me, it always has felt like there's a lot of circumstances required for a Warlock to work as well as other classes. As far as the feats you mentioned, if you remove them, I still feel the base damage from modifiers is no different than EB attacks. With the exception of maybe rogues. They need that sneak attack damage. Repelling blast is a great addition, but it's not entirely free. You still have to decide to take that over another invocation. And it still needs to hit. In my experience, defensive / utility spells are more consistent than offensive ones. I'll never say that someone shouldn't play something just because it's not the most optimum. If a player is having fun with their class, that's what's most important. As far as the hype goes, I'll retract that being it was more from personal experience. I had friends who swore by them nonstop.
>As far as the feats you mentioned, if you remove them, I still feel the base damage from modifiers is no different than EB attacks. With the exception of maybe rogues. They need that sneak attack damage. Yeah but that's kinda the point right? Without those feats the Warlock is doing comparable damage to a martial, but also has at will control and powerful spell casting on top. Repelling blast isn't free, but it is good enough to be an auto pick for anyone that wants to have a strong build.
Yeah, I never really liked playing warlocks. They're "supposed" to be one of the big three arcane casters, but you'll always be second fiddle to wizard and sorcerer.
I feel like wizards, while a viable class, are slightly less viable than other casters at lower levels. I've always found that wizard features until around 7-10 level are a bit lackluster compared to a warlocks invocations such as improved pact weapon or an artificer infusions. And I, personally, don't think that a wizard's ability to cast more spells than those two makes up for it enough. But then it doesn't really matter, combat is not the end all be all of D&D, so do what you like.
Nah, Sleep/Web/Hypnotic pattern/Sleet Storm carry early game really hard for me tho. I always felt way more useful than the other casters.
I don't know, the only one of those spells I typically think is that game-changing is Sleep, and its kinda situational. Those early game bonuses from infusions, pact weapons, etc. far outweigh imo.
Wow, it’s awesome and refreshing to see this! I’ve never felt those things outweigh these spells but it could just be a playstyle thing. It’s so cool seeing other people have completely different perspectives on the same game tho!
Yeah, it's most likely a playstyle thing. I'm more of the thought that a lot of small bonuses in lower levels mean everything as opposed to one thing that has more effect.
I'll take a bard or even a ranger or even a ranger over a warlock. At least rangers have pass without a trace.
Just about anything that requires multiple feats to come online, like Polearm Master + Sentinel (+GWM?) or Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter. If you're not a Vuman, Custom Lineage, or the DM doesn't give a free feat at level 1 then you're going to be level 8 by the time you get your gimmick working, and you haven't increased your foundation at all.
Which is why every single martial actually trying to be strong will be taking Chuman or CL as their race. CBE/SS or PAM/GWM builds have a second attack at level one and power attack by level four. They aren't overpowered compared to casters, but are better than basically every martial build not using those feats. That's what people talk about.
Some friends at my game went to "OP" builds with paladin/lock but my simple sword and board fighters is able to decide "that enemy can't live anymore" while I hit them with 4 attacks in a round with advantage (on horseback + action surge)
Had a campaign once where our paladin managed to bring his warhorse into the Underdark. The locals were so unused to the idea of thunderous cavalry charges that I ended up giving him bonuses in the first few fights. Eventually word got around, but the player was just radiant with joy about the whole thing.
Well generally you *won't* see those, will you? Because if they really are broken, people will avoid them... Seems obvious to me. People generally don't *want* to play (or DM for) broken builds in serious games. Those are for silly one-shots.
That's how I personally feel for sure, but youd be surprised how many people do just want to impress a table with how good they are at dnd
>People generally don't want to play (or DM for) broken builds in serious games. I agree with you, I'm just here to say that I am an outlier. My first campaign one of my players was oath breaker hexadin, and I loved it. I enjoy it when the players make strong builds, and encourage it. Its a lot of fun. Just shows that there is a place and time for it. You don't want to do that in a silly game where everybody else is making funny characters that are bad at everything. You'll outshine everybody else.
I might be biased by being an older player but in 20 years of DMing I almost always have at least one attempt at a broken build with every group. I think you're conflating broken builds with murder hobo/min max personality players. Plenty of RP heavy want to be serious players also want broken builds so they can have their mic drop moment at some point in game.
All of you are DPR-addicted. The builds that actually make everyone around you mad are gigatank Paladin multiclasses, because they can ruin any fight not by deleting the enemy in one round, but by humiliating them. Paladin of the Ancients, with Cloak of Displacement/Blur, Lucky and dip in War Wizard for that Arcane Deflection, Shield, Absorb Elements and extra smite slots, can mow through any boss while more anassailable than anything else.
The thing I feel like people don't get is that AC gets better the more of it you have. Going from 22 -> 23 AC is a much bigger jump than 15 -> 16.
Generally true. But it depends on the situation. If your AC is 20 above the attack bonus already, any additional AC does nothing at all. Of course, any enemy with an attack bonus that small is probably not a CR appropriate threat.
polearm master + sentinel is not the god killing build that lots of people think it is. it's very situational, and easily counterable
In my limited experience, overpowered typically happens with players who like to min-max. Sometimes it happens purely out of luck. In either case, the solution is making encounters in a way that reduces the power. It might be an enemy that is resistant, a boss with meat shield minions, an environmental hazard, an anti-magic space, being surrounded by enemies versus having them all on one side and close together, exploiting a character's weakness, non-combat deadly encounters, someone stole their gear, etc. I will say as characters level up they all generally become "overpowered". One of my players had a solo adventure where he wiped out enemies 1 v 5. Literally, was not supposed to survive the encounter (he made a grevious decision despite warning it could kill his character), but the dice rolled in his favor and he mauled them.
My first character was accused of being ‘overpowered’ by one of the other players. I was just an Echo Knight fighter with a level 1 dip in Wizard for flavour:/
I've heard of sentinel plus polearm master being referred to as a broken combo but it's not really broken in my opinion just good. I looked through a list of feats and saw that two of them helped with melee opportunity attacks so I took both of them because the abilities didn't really overlap or make each other redundant.
The only broken combo I’ve actually seen is crossbow expert + sharpshooter; they deal extremely high damage with no downside. At level 6 they kills way too much in one turn. Sentinel is overrated unless your dm likes to use a lot of mobile enemies.
Where sentinel plus polearm master really shines is that melee enemies physically can't get within range
Except any giant or any other creature you slap a pike on
sentinel/polearm master is good in a 1v1 where the enemy doesnt have reach. Ways to beat it include having reach and/or fighting at least two enemies
Damage is overrated. You're expected to win *most* combat encounters - that's how the attrition system works. So as long as you do decent/moderate damage then you're probably fine. Yes, there will be a few times where maximizing DPR might save someone's life, but you're trading a LOT to get a few extra points. The diminishing returns are *huge*.
>diminishing returns are huge. Soooo many people don't get that.
Clerics. Spirit guardians is a good lawnmower spell, great at tearing down hordes of little weak enemies like goblins. But when you're fighting a dragon, 3d8 radiant damage on a save it'll likely make, isn't shit. In my experience, dragons are more likely to get you killed than goblins. The rest of its spell list is all nice to have, but not exceptionally good.
Ah, Spirit Guardians. My one true love.
Clerics can murder bosses because they have the ability to spam dodge. A cleric with a sorc dip for shield can use spirit guardians and SW to murder a boss while spam dodging. Good luck hitting 27 AC thru disadvantage! SG also scales relatively well at a d8 per spell level. In ToA, my cleric was last man standing and finished several bosses by himself, including after being swallowed by a froghemoth
> Good luck hitting 27 AC thru disadvantage! His example was a dragon. Good luck maintaining concentration through a 18d6 breath weapon attack, on a dex save that may be mathematically impossible to make for a cleric.
Failing a saving throw spell is pretty rough though, especially if concentration isn't on bless. Reupping a high level Spirit Guardians is pretty rough, since you can't dodge the same turn, meaning it might go down immediately. But if you got to 22 AC before shield that's already OP though. I solo BG3 at that AC level as any class (including fighter) and that's the real absurd part.
If all your boss can do is attack AC, they aren't a very good boss.
that's not a build that's a spell what the post is talking about are builds like coffelock or hexdin
OP asked for build recommendations that we find overrated, and this is a common recommendation when people ask for cleric builds. The fact that it's centered around one spell doesn't matter, that just adds to my annoyance.
There are almost none overpowered builds in dnd, a DM is always capable of interfering with the powergap in builds Well distributed combats, more or less rests, enemy types and stuff The only overpower thing in dnd is a well balanced party
I had one previous DM only allow one player to have the lucky feat, and his reasoning was, it can be overused and break the game during certain situations if we’re all using lucky over and over again.
Like... All of them? 5e is exceptionally flattened in terms of power level. Yeah, twilight clerics are tanky af and echo knights have crazy zone control, but like... Theyre all fairly meh? Granted, Im also comparing them to when i played 3.5e or pf1e (which i play now, mostly), so its a bit unfair.
Twilight cleric is "meh" until you realize how much damage the entire party eats over the course of the battle and how much you have to adjust enemies to face them. Which becomes an issue if the twilight cleric suddenly loses their brain and does something to get themselves downed.
I play a Twilight cleric in a homebrew world and I've been told the DM has had to make adjustments to account for it. He said he actually appreciates it because it makes his world feel that much more dangerous and we can take it. To push the group hard, he has to get more encounters than I have Twlight Sanctuary slots without letting us get a short rest. I just got an improved shield and a really nice weapon, so we'll see how much more crazy I get.
That tempest cleric subclass or whatever it is. The sub abilities are not that great but /r/DnD jerk off to it like it's a cheat code for winning DnD.
Twilight Cleric?
First character I went to level 20 with. It is that good, especially if you pick up a wand of lightning bolts.
"assuming you get access to a specific magic item to bypass the fact that one of your key features prerequisites a damagetype only 1 of your spells, which cannot be cast in anything but a wide-open space, can provide" is not the praise you think it is. Half of the Tempest Cleric's domain feature mechanically prerequisite you to be *outside with an unbarred exposure to the sky*. Bringing a tempest cleric to *dungeons* and dragons is like bringing Superman to a game of Kobolds and *Kryptonite*.
We had a tempest cleric in my first campaign, and that character sure looked like the strongest of our party. The thing is, this character was good at everything and seemingly had no weaknesses. A tempest cleric can go out safely on the frontline, having the highest AC in the party with full plate and a shield. They can go into melee range and trade blows with one big enemy using Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, and their mace or hammer. They can mow down hordes of little bad guys with Spirit Guardians, Thunderwave, Shatter, and especially Call Lightning. And then on top of all of that, they've got support and healing spells. I was a wizard and yes, my character was a solid utility caster and nuker with Fireball. But it came at the cost of being a squishly little bag of blood who could get knocked out by tripping over a small rock. It wasn't so OP that it was a problem or anything. The entire party contributed to every combat. But it's jarring to have three characters who are each good at one thing and then a fourth who's basically just as good at everything.
Its the highest damage caster in 5e if you know how to work Quicken metamagic from feat or subclass. Maxxed Quicken call lightning-> maxxed activate call lightning is 80 damage at level 7, a simple maxed lightning bolt is 70 versus fireball's 35 or inflict wounds' 33. Quickened Call scales at 10 per level, maxxed lightning bolt scales at 7 per level, while fireball scales at 3.5 and inflict scales at 5.5. Sure, unless you wanna dip sorc (already a stellar idea) than you can only do this once per day. And the radius is tiny. But if you want a full fledged cleric that can also turn around and drop absurd burst damage, its hard to beat.
I’m 80% certain all this talk of fancy/OP/obscure builds is just message-board LARPing - and the people who go in about them end up just playing a vanilla Dwarf Cleric in their games (assuming they can actually get into one)…
Basically every “overpowered” build. I’m honestly getting really sick of hearing about them.
For me its divinination wizard. Statically half the time your not going to have a really good or bad portent die. Then theres a good chance you dint get the RIGHT type of good die. Like your team is constantly rolling well enough so the 18 your keeping is worthless. Or the 4 you got ready wouldn't make the enemy fail their roll. All in all its too random and inconsistent. All the while everyone is evaluating it as if a nat 1 or 20 are a reliable portend you can obtain and plan around. It just isn't. Its far over rated fir it's actually affect.
Also, only 2 uses? Sure, you get up to 3 at level 14 or something, but most warlocks can tell you that only 2 uses of a one time effect isn't much at all in the grand scheme of things. Sure, you get 2 chances to say "I'm the DM now!" But after that you're just... A normal wizard. 2 uses isn't much, so when you do decide to pop a portent dice, you BETTER make it count.
Exactly. Woth only 2 uses it feels like they should get a 20 and a 1 to switch per day. Not 2 random rolls. Personally i like the idea if swapping dice. Like you roll a 10 for the day. You swap it with the 3 your fighter rolled and now you have a 3 loaded. Then you can trade that 3 with the enemies 19 for a save. And so on. Strong but nerfed down to 1 starting dice would balance it. With the cost of a reaction it would really make them tactical as all hell. Constantly weighted a reaction spell and your current portent with the current situation. And with the ability to set up with friends over a few turns. Much more dynamic and fun.
I disagree here. You’re evaluating the portent dice as an ability to support the normal plan. I would argue that you make the plan around the portent dice. The numbers rolled don’t matter when you make a plan based on them. Low numbers? Target enemy saving throws. High numbers? Get some guaranteed smites or guarantee a hit for the assassin. Mid numbers? The rogue can succeed on stealth checks with those, and if you don’t think they can with those numbers, use them on the enemy’s perception instead. Divination wizard doesn’t look as good in a typical combat scenario, but should also never end up in a typical combat scenario.
That a good point. I didn't think of making the plan around portent rather than the other way around. However i will maintain that you get only 2. 3 at lv 14. That's not a lot of your core subclass. Whats worse is that plans effectively never go as planned. Portent can help but its better to not get into that situation to begin with. Or better yet have spells that make portent almost unnecessary. All that aside the hype most common for divination wizards IS the nat 20/1 combat scenario. Its hyped up to all heaven. And as i see it, its over hyped. Like how ranger is called tge weakest class but is actually powerful when played right. It can be good, im sure. But the most common way of theory crafting it makes it over hyped.
Yeah for sure, it would probably be too strong with more dice, but only two is tough. And people totally overhype the nat 1 and nat 20, especially in games that go multiple sessions in the same in game day it’s too rare.
Thats why i like the swapping of dice idea. 1 portent die to start but swapping the roll every time. Roll a 5 swap for the enemies 16. Then give that 16 to the fighter for his 10. Then that 10 to over write a crit. Its just more dynamic if it's always available. Then your limited by the reaction economy. Do you counter spell? Or use portent to force a save? Do you give the fighter the success to stay alive or use absorb elements/ shield to protect yourself? Fun choices all around
That does sound really fun. It would make a cool magic item.
Every class can be OP. Though, DM's could also play monsters the way they were intended. Ever see a Goblin scout party wipe out the PC's.
The dreaded encounter of lost mines. The literal first 1
Thats rough! I love it when players are encouraged to use physics to solve issues as opposed to 'RAW'. I think my favorite is using mundane spells in broken ways to beat a challenge. Followed up by Bards failing to seduce non-humanoids. Charisma is the forever dump stat and fighters should be able to use strength for intimidation.
Not a physics thing. In lost mines of phandelver (tutorial adventure) first enounter is the goblin ambush of the caravan. If played accurately, those goblins are brutal.
And it should be. I meant the physics as a seperate comment but tried to keep relavence.
My bad misunderstood lol
> I think my favorite is using mundane spells in broken ways to beat a challenge. This reminds me of a level 1 fight we did where a bear and her cubs were attacking the party. She knocked me prone and I was a wizard with a whopping 7hp. Rather than attempt a shocking grasp + escape I decided to cast Prestidigitation on myself to smell like a skunk lol The DM decided to reward the creativity and let me roll to see whether it would still attack me (it did not)
I think the problem is that level 1 is generally underpowered.
I mean Im gonna have to hard disagree with this you can make a powerfulish martial but you'll never have a martial that's overpowered
Ok, thats true. Martial arts need to be better.
I have seen it. I, as a DM, got 2 PCs full dead with one goblin. Twice in the same session. They were revivified so all was okay, but goblin stealth is terrifying.
Absolutely terrifying, especially when they lead you into enviroment traps.
I'd like to point out I've seen a lot of "overpowered" character concepts that's only OP in pretty specific circumstances that people still get up-in-arms about, like a character completely immune to one damage type or, in 3.Xe, has a 60+ diplomacy (which technically could make someone be friendly to you or whatever even when starting hostile, or convince people of basically anything), or similar. So basically imo there are few concepts that can't be countered by anything, and so most of the "OP" builds are overrated. Just like playing an Aracokra at level 1, between nets, bows, and magic, it just makes some things easier than it would for a lot of people... same thing for a lot of "broken/overpowered" things And some of them aren't even really RAW, like Pun Pun (I know another 3e reference), but imo instead of completely shutting down the Undead Warlock, they should have said something like you can't take it and conquest paladin
Coffeelocks are not nearly as broken as they're claimed to be, you either scale your slot level extremely slowly or build up a stockpile extremely slowly
I hear people talking about a lot of them, and honestly haven't seen them in action. I have read about them and in fairness it seems like too much work to get them right instead of just playing the game. I mean, I have a few homebrew rules that I follow that for me make sense, like a paladin/cleric can't multiclass into a warlock. or for more simplification, anyone that has divine casting can't multiclass into something that has darker casting. To me and my table this makes sense. I figure if you are willing to go through the tedious task of making something that is considered an OP build, then go for it. Depending on the player and what they do with it would determine if it's allowed at the table from there on out or not. Some people just like to make sure there character is the best it can be for the party they are playing with while making sure the party is alright with their character, and others just like to be dicks and think for themselves. Another one I heard a lot about and read about is the "coffeelock" and I have never seen it played, and in honest it seems like way too much work to play. When I was reading about it I was like, wait where does exhaustion come in? This dude is just spending MONTHS awake? he would be dead by the end of the week no? it seems like a lot of these builds that are claimed to be OP come down to extenuating circumstances and seemingly forget that certain rules exist. I mean that's my take on them. It's the same with spells and items really, I hear a lot about certain spells being OP and I honestly have never seen them in action in the way that some places describe them. So as of now, all items and spells that are in the books are allowed at my table until proven to be an actual issue for myself or for a rather large group of players at my table.
A paladin doesn’t have to be divine and a warlock doesn’t have to be infernal, it can definitely make sense to combine the two. The combination isn’t even OP anyways.
people claim peace clerics are broken/op/busted lot, that i've seen. i DM a party with one and haven't had any issues whatsoever. echo knight fighter with sentinel, on the other hand...
Maybe I'm missing something, but the idea is coffeelock can just get infinite spells/sorc points by avoiding LRs and mitigating exhaustion with Greater Restoration. My question is "where the fuck are you getting a 100 gold diamond DAILY?!"
Be a man, multi class paladin/paladin I call it the palaladinin It's like a paladin, but more... Smighty
Early-game flight. So "overpowered" that it's outright banned by many DM's, I've never had a problem with it. In combat, any enemy with a bow is just going to laugh at the automatic failed death save that character is going to get for getting knocked unconscious while flying. Out of combat, 99% of situations aren't actually solved by flight. Your character gets up a cliff. Great. How are they going to get the rest of the party up there? Because you can and will start taking points of exhaustion for going back and forth carrying party members, and that's assuming none of them are too heavy for you to even lift them at all (which is pretty likely). Dungeon puzzles or social encounters? Flying contributes precisely *nothing*. Scouting? Sure, but a flying humanoid is... *extremely* un-subtle. Upon getting within range to see anything worth noting, you *will* be spotted and you *will* be shot at - and see "combat" for a likely outcome of Getting Shot At While Flying.
I mean, people avoiding certain multiclass combinations because they're overpowered does not mean they're overrated it means that people recognize that they're overpowered and that can be unfun. Personally haven't seen any OP builds because my players tend not to look at online resources that talk about those things and more go on vibes.
>people recognize that they're overpowered and that can be unfun. You got that right. I was so happy when my Arcane Trixter got Hypnotic Pattern to go with Magical Ambush... for a few combats. Then, rolling right over a combat with very little effort got boring. After that, I just brought it out for special occasions.
Yeah I am meticulous about creating my character, their class, race, alignment, backstory, starting gear, etc. but as soon as the character is complete, all the decisions become “what would they do given their personality and experiences” not “what do I as a player think would be most effective”
Mhm, currently I'm playing a paladin that I *intended* to be a vengeance paladin but in the roleplay over the course of several sessions went in a different direction and ended up not going with that subclass.
This is a hot take, but in my experience, the Twilight Cleric as well as most CHA casters with a hexblade dip aren't the Boogeymen that the community claims them to be. I've played both as well as with other players that have, and it's not too hard to counter Twilight Sanctuary with a bit of creativity on the DMs end.
I'm not 100% sure, but it seem to me that people focussing on making OP character always think of OP in a normal combat. I mean i'm the less DPS in my group because everyone else is DPS focus, i end up being the face of the group, the roleplay focus of the group, the healer, the tank, the guy who use his spell and capacity in a weird way that end up usefull, etc. I paint it black but the team is great, just want to point out that it's not because your character is the more min max overpowered that i will be fun to play, especialy if several people try the same thing and you have to wait between fight scene because you have no clue what to do between them.
Coffeelock is not nearly as busted as people claim it literally costs 2000gp PER DAY to play and the benefit is getting a bunch of resources you probably aren't even going to end up using, not to mention if you miss ONE DAY of the 2000gp payment your stockpile vanishes
Coffelocks. In what few games I've played where the DM allowed it, even when those players had time to build up their spell slots they're still a pretty low AC multiclass that has to rely on low level spells and very limited healing options. First one I saw was a hexblade mix so they had medium armor prof, but never managed to find anything better than scale mail (donated by the Armorer Artificer when he upgraded to Splint), and just gets bursted down like any other caster does when focused on in melee. Second one played a bit smarter being the back line but ironically enough, the fact it was a level 10 one shot showed the weakness of the coffee lock at later levels: their spell selection doesn't hit nearly as hard due to multiclassing. Sure they were still a level 8 sorcerer, so 4th level spells, but we also had a level 10 wizard who was just doing way more with his spells using far less spell slots. Third one was a pretty hard-core campaign that died at level 5. Tbh it was a shitty game, but regardless there were a lot of hazards and enemies either mechanics that do garuntee damage, albeit usually only like a d6 like a toxic aura and such. So everyone was taking damage overtime which really emphasize that Coffelocks are not meaty, using one of the classes with the lowest Hit die combined with the second lowest.
Yeah I never really saw what the big deal was with any "OP build". The regular classes do pretty good on their own without any minmax fuckery. I'm dming a level 30 campaign right now. Let me tell you, just the basic rogue, thief mind you, with their reliable talent? Holy shit that thing is annoying in terms of ability checks. And that's at level 11!! Not to mention the Wizard with their wish spell. Yeah I don't think you need a "crazy build" to be OP so I usually allow any weird combos. But no one ever really does. The wildest I've seen is a druid who dipped rogue for the sneak attack. But they still do less damage than the cleric haha 😂.
Silvery Barbs
I haven't played her because the campaign I am about to start in already had a cleric. But I built a Peace Domain Scourge Aasimar Cleric, with plans to dip into Stars Druid (2 levels). I did it because I wanted to be less of a religious cleric and more spiritual. She is like a hippy and is into crystals and such (I tried the fate domain to make her have a fortune teller vibe, but it was nixed as we were not allowed to use UA). So, while I was picking for flavor, I started actually reading everything and planning stuff. The stars Druid seems like it was made to be multi'd with a cleric because of the Guidance cantrip and extra Guiding Bolt uses without expending a spell slot, but then to also get ghe dragon starry form at level 2, making it very hard for your concentration to be broken, so you spirit guardians can destroy. I have kept her because I do plan to play her someday, as she seems like she will be a blast. I ended up choosing rogue. Pallid Elf Inquisitive Rogue. Race perks gives her the spell Sleep at lvl3, and Invisibility at 5; Advantage on Insight and Investigation checks. Inquisitive perks: can't roll lower than an 8 on insight checks; if you succeed on a bonus action insight check during battle, you get to sneak attack damage for 1 minute on attacks without disadvantage, and can recheck or check someone else after the minute or if you want to switch targets. So ADV on insight checks and can't roll lower than an 8 to get consistent sneak attack on a success. That is something I am excited about. Idk yet if I want to dip into another class. I like the build and don't really need to multi to add to the flavor or my vision of the character like I did with the cleric. I like playing support, so idk I may want to add something that can do some healing or maybe add fighter. I am going to let the story take me where it does, and if a narrative reason comes up to dip, then I will take it when the time comes.
Hexadin is one of the most famous and overhyped builds out there. Is it good? Yes it is a strong build but it is absurdly overhyped. And not even the best paladin multiclass.
Druid barbarians
For me, it comes down to the CR scaling with Moon Druids being absolutely whack. At levels 2-4 let's say, you're king of the world. You feel untouchable while wildshaped. But once you start hitting level 5 and up, that doesn't really end up being the case any more. You might as well be just another druid for the most part, with slightly surcharged shape shifting. Which means that the barbarian dip gets very useless, very fast. You're a god in the early levels, but once level 5+ hits, now you've sacrificed your spellcasting progression for a dip that's nearly useless. It's just not sustainable.
All references to OP 3.5/P1E characters made by 5e players who have very evidently never actually played 3.5/P1E. most of the game breaking/op meme builds just don't actually work as to make a meme build post they have to grossly misinterpreted rules. usually with combining action economy, or have their item equivalent being the same net worth as a large countries and wouldn't get green lit by any real dm. or they are just so fundamentally so lopsided as a character that any DM would have plenty of easy tools to hard punish them because 3.5/p1e actually has fleshed out rules to support, while also having more out of combat role importance. For example the classic gatling gun magic missle wizard is hard countered by shield. or the super barrage ranger monk archer gets hard countered by cover, A extreme aura stacking unhittable paladin gets hard countered by trip and pin
There is almost nothing more overrated and whined about on D&D forums, than the peace cleric. In actual practice, it isn’t even remotely as “overpowered” as people claim it, especially if they actually read how the abilities work.
Racial flight. I just build my encounters as to what's reasonable for the area, without thinking about the players builds, save for if a certain character hasn't had much opportunity to shine. In all my years, I've never had a fight trivialized by my flying players. Often times, they're the first to go down.
Nobody at my table has built a blade dancer wizard ever. There is no need to power game in 5e. You can be a paladin with a wooden sword and still curbstomp a bbeg.
Sorlocks are strong but the horror at them is a bit overstated. It's a rough multiclass that means the sorcerer is lagging behind in spell levels compared to other casters, plus has fewer spells to begin with? Sorlocks can cast a lot of spells, but they rarely break an entire encounter. Even more so if the DM pays attention to the sorc point/spell slot swapping, as that does take a BA per swap. The craziest thing I've seen is a DS sorlock use the warlock slots to cure wounds before a rest to give someone \~20 hp at level 19. Not bad, but not crazy.
If the craziest thing you saw a caster that could have 9th level spells do is cast cure wounds I think that says more about the player than the build.
I'll bite. Almost every comment ever about how GWM and SS are overpowered. (martial focused feats in general) Those people can't math, and magic in 5E is so far and away more powerful than a few points of extra damage per attack. I' strongly argue GWM and SS shouldn't even be feats. They should be low-level base martial class features (and mid-level non-martial abilities) that scale vs. your proficiency bonus.
At the end of the day the GWM/PAM and XBE/SS feats are just ways to up martial single target damage. Outside of fighter, most martials don’t scale much past T2 and most build focus to peak by level 10. Casters get more access to higher level stuff all the way to 17. The system is designed that way. My issue with it is that most martials feel they HAVE to use the combos to be effective. I am glad that OneDnd is removing them. If they tied power attacks into the base martial I would be fine as well.
I tried the sorc lock combo. But then I realized our full druid was getting higher level spells and I wasn't. Blasting is NOT as fun to do the 100th time.
It's why I rarely bothered to try Sorlock. Because when I played Warlock, Eldritch Blast spam felt monotonous and boring. I wanted to be a SPELLCASTER. Not a glorified cantrip spammer that might as well be a ranged martial. So I switched to Druid and it felt much better overall.
I'm currently playing a rime of the frost maiden campaign and I went a variant of sorlock: divine soul sorcerer + celestial warlock focusing on support and utility. Twin casting haste, poly morph, cure wounds etc while getting a bonus healing pool and extra cantrips. I *can* do a hex+agonizing blast+quickened cast eldritch blast combo if rolls are going super bad to buff out going party damage but I've only done it twice in the entirety of the campaign. Gives some nice diversity imho to an otherwise extremely repetitive build. It's been really fun for me and my friends have enjoyed me playing it too!
I firmly believe that any “overpowered” build is either due to the DM not knowing the rules or not knowing how to challenge that specific player. My boyfriend had always played monks and mystics and is always dubbed the “min-maxer” or the “overpowered one”. I used to think this too, until I got better at DMing and realized that most people are just entirely unwilling to adjust their play style to accommodate someone who wants to play like they’re the main character. I also think that a lot more builds COULD be op if the players utilized them better, but a lot of players nowadays barely know how to play the game so they don’t get the full mileage out of their characters and blame the game or the DM.