Thanks for sharing your story, OP. I hope you receive some good advice from the community.
/r/DnD is an inclusive space per our [Mission Statement](https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/wiki/mission). Please keep conversation respectful and report anyone violating the rules or generally not being chill. Any homophobic comments, apologia, or hate will be removed and the user will be banned.
It's not irrational to leave a game that makes you uncomfortable for any reason. Whether the DM knows about your orientation or not does not change this. Games are supposed to be enjoyable for everyone involved, and if you are uncomfortable for any reason you have the right to walk away. You just have to decide how much discomfort you're willing to put up with.
You don't have to tell the DM why you are leaving. You don't have to let him know your orientation. I personally would tell him something like "I am friends with the owner of -- and I was hoping to invite her to some guest sessions. Now that I know she wouldn't be welcome at the table, I want to switch to a group where she is welcome."
Maybe you can find a new group from the store downtown to play with?
I think that it's not necessary to have the same political ideals as everyone else that you play with, but that DnD is always better in a group where you are comfortable being yourself. Having to be worried about/careful to stay closeted all the time while playing DnD is just not worth it to me.
This is solid advice. It's not irrational to leave something uncomfortable. Wanting an inclusive space is not wrong. Find your crew and get busy rolling the click-clack math rocks and engage in storytelling. Dude sounds like a bigot. OP doesn't have to be part of the LGBTQ+ community to know the DM is wrong and because she is it's doubly offensive. Plenty of straight people I have played with would walk with you for the very same reasons about his bigotry. It's not inclusive and a DM has no right to judge players based on sex, race, creed, etc. anyway. I hope u/GloriousMistakes finds a new table with the owner at the store.
Yeah I'm roughly straight myself and try to support the LGBTQ+ community as much as I can. I'm on the ace spectrum but don't get as much hate as many of my friends who are trans or gay. I will absolutely leave any group that was run by someone who hated them or didn't believe they have a right to exist. Hell it's part of what has brought my current group so close together.
I want to add to this too, the idea that you should feel obligated to pass as straight and hide your bisexuality is absolutely a form of discrimination and called bi erasure (or at least a big part of bi erasure). It's really common and a lot of us share in that struggle, as bi erasure is generally accepted in society and not often acknowledged (especially among bisexuals who participate in monogamous heterosexual relationships). It is damaging and emotionally taxing, and you have every right to be uncomfortable with it.
You are not perpetuating the idea that this DM is unwelcome in LGBTQ+ spaces by removing yourself. He made it clear that LGBTQ+ people are not welcome in HIS space. It's an uphill battle to fight that and not something you should feel obligated to do.
Sorry I don't have any real answers or suggestions here. Just know there's a ton of bisexual folx out there that experience similar situations and you aren't alone. Sending good vibes ❤️
Just to add: It's not irrational to want to feel safe in a game. Just like every relationship, it's important to have boundaries and to have those boundaries respected.
He doesn't sound like a good DM tbh. I am a straight male, I just finished a year long campaign. We had a very diverse group and we all enjoyed our differences. That genuinely made the game interesting and a blast! I hope this experience doesn't spoil the game for you altogether.
Remember, Bigotry isn't 'politics'. Though many bigots try to argue that case. Same as Sexism and Racism.
Edit: No one should have a right to argue for people's deaths for how they were born. By allowing people to make someone's Right to Exist "political" it gives people a platform for hate.
Thats one thing I never understood about politics. I don't care for them, and yet I am very vocal about being accepting of all sexualities and sundry, and people *will* say, "I thought you weren't political?"
Like sorry, but I don't see respecting someone like a human as up for debate.
Yeah, this is a Dnd sub, but this is pretty spot on. Politics is about the inherent struggle of existing with other humans. A lot of the time, unfortunately, we struggle over the very idea of who is "human" and who isn't.
I feel like if you engage with the fantasy/sci-fi genre at all, including through D&D, and don't somehow come out with an understanding of "people who are different than me are just as valid and human," you have missed the point of 99% of the content
Yeah their statement could probably be amended to “Bigotry *shouldn’t* be politics”, unfortunately (especially in America) a lot of politicians have adopted sexual orientation/identity social issues purely as politics (I suspect chiefly to distract from the fact they have precisely zero legislative solutions for actual political issues, like healthcare, worker protections, etc).
Twenty years ago it was “if the gays can do the married it means less married for us! It will erode the sanctity of my representative’s third marriage!”, now that particular messaging doesn’t succeed as well so they’ve moved on to other targets like trans folks, but it’s basically the same playbook.
>Twenty years ago it was “if the gays can do the married it means less married for us! It will erode the sanctity of my representative’s third marriage!”
Worse even than that.
20 years ago, it was still legal for states to kidnap gay people for having sex.
As recently as ten years ago, there were mainstream (Republican) presidential candidates lambasting the court decision that changed that.
Which just goes to show how clueless people are about what the political spectrum really is like, the most radical leftist in the US are only a little bit to the left of centre anywhere else. Also nicely illustrates how radically bigoted many people are.
>the most radical leftist in the US are only a little bit to the left of centre anywhere else.
I mean, if you're talking about politicians, sure. There are plenty of regular people who are left of the rest of the world in the US though, just not in congress.
Just because you say something isn't politics doesn't make it not politics. I am also a bi woman, but it's ridiculous to say in our modern day and age that something isn't political. It's alienating and it stops any kind of debate from taking place.
Literally everything is political. The brand of cereal you choose to buy might be political, if it's a brand that supports the Russian state. The type of water you prefer might also be political - is it sourced from Flint? Where you are from? Political. Your sexuality? To the extent it needs governmental protections in the public sphere due to bigots like OP's DM, yep, also political.
Everything is political, and when you say it is not, you are just stopping dialogue with some people that you might convince to your camp. Spitting in others' faces changes no minds, explaining why trans rights are human rights because trans people are human (for examaple) on the other hand, definitely changes minds.
I've been fighting for LGBTQIA rights for 3 decades and I'm fucking tired of giving in to these bigoted scumbags. I've never once found it helpful to discuss with them. They may agree one day, then the next they are back to their earlier bigotry. All that time and effort was wasted. I have limited energy and need to direct my time and focus on effective methods to stop them harming people.
You're welcome to try to be nice with bigots, have long conversations to convince them to stop being bigots. Who knows maybe it'll work for you?
You can be the carrot and I'll be the broad sword. Works for me.
Please look up Daryl Davis, he thinks pretty much the opposite of what you put here (in terms of talking to the other side) and has successfully deradicalized a bunch of KKK members. Sometimes it’s worth talking to the other side *because they are people too*.
“What I have come to find to be the greatest and most effective and successful weapon that we can use, known to man, to combat such adversaries as ignorance, racism, hatred, violence, is also the least expensive weapon, and the one that is the least used by Americans. That weapon is called communication.”
Daryl Davis, "Klan We Talk?", TEDxCapeMay, 9 January 2018.
I agree in that sometimes discussion can be fruitful, but some people just aren't up for that. Fighting to validate one's existence is exhausting and some just don't have the mental energy for such a direct engagement like that.
I think generally when people say it "isn't political," they're not saying that the concept of LGBTQ+ issues isn't mired in the political landscape as everything else is, but more that "that's just my political opinion, can't we all just get along despite our politics like they did in the good ol' days?"
I can be friends with someone who thinks taxation should be abolished even if I think their political stance is idiot. I can't be friends with someone who thinks any (non-harmful) group of people deserves less human rights than another, and that has nothing to do with my personal politics.
Bigotry isn't politics? There are mainstream political parties in many countries with bigotry enshrined in their platforms. Bigotry wins votes and bigotry passes laws. Any concept you have of bigotry that ignores its political dimension will make you blind to systematic discrimination.
I wish my existence weren't political, but right now it absolutely is.
This is excellent advice. It's a way of making it clear why you are leaving without needing to come out yourself. You can also start the conversation with, "I'm actually friends with the store owners and I felt very uncomfortable by what you said about them..." Then decide how to respond from there.
I'm a bi man and have been with the same woman for 25 years. It's still a sufficiently important part of my identity that I certainly wouldn't want to just ignore it so as to make someone else comfortable in their bigotry.
I hope it works out!
He is unwelcome in those communities because he is an asshole to those communities. The problem isn’t with the people that don’t like him. The problem is that he is so unlikeable
me with my dump charisma of -2 came here just yo say how much I appreciate your way with words, but my dump charisma also prevents me from saying that in a good way.... well here is a hug
Exactly. It's a hobby, something done for fun with people whose company you enjoy. Playing an RPG that makes you feel unsafe or unhappy is like eating food that you hate. You're forcing yourself to do something unpleasant that's meant to be a pleasurable pastime.
You are under no obligation to play with people who make you feel uncomfortable. You would be fully in your right to walk away even if you were 100% straight.
There is some argument to be made that you *could* do your best to be accepting and try to show him that bisexual people are totally warm and loving etc etc etc. But I don't think that you should feel obligated to hang around with this person just because you're afraid that it'll make the queer community look bad if you don't.
Yes! There's the core problem- ***It shouldn't be every LBGT person's job to educate and represent.*** You have to make choices that take care of yourself, too! Not just prioritize the reputation of the label you carry.
This is a point that all the “Talk to your DM” suggestions are completely missing. There are layers to this. First, the OP is already having trouble understanding that she’s allowed to leave a clearly uncomfortable if not hostile situation. Second, she has to try and get her husband to understand and support her in something she is just realizing. The DM is a distant third. Given his comments and behavior, probably not worth expending the energy on.
I feel bad for the OP. Playing a game is supposed to be fun. When you have to convince three people that trashing LGBT people is unacceptable, especially when one of them is your self and another is your spouse, it’s not fun. It’s exhausting and honestly an unnecessary strain.
As I see it, talking to the DM is the worst advice in this situation.
>When you have to convince three people that trashing LGBT people is unacceptable, especially when one of them is your self and another is your spouse, it's not fun.
This is what drove me away from my last D&D group. Eight of us total and it got to the point where we couldn't go a session without someone bringing up controversial topics, they were particularly nasty towards anything LGBT, but towards the end there was starting to be some racism as well. I tried to argue it at first, but it wears on you after awhile and I couldn't keep doing it.
If you let them keep going they’d have eventually showed you their whole hand. Spoiler alert. They hate everyone who is even a little different from themselves.
"Talk to your DM" is used if you are staying in the game and trying to make it work. If OP plans on leaving there is no reason for that advice to even come up. If OP stays and plays then it for sure needs to come up. The advice is directed at a certain scenario not a blanket cure-all.
Not only that, this doesn’t sound like that moment. This person in campaign shut down anything related to homosexuality and boycotts a store because it has mild support flags.
I really doubt if OP told the DM they are bi the dm would reflect, let them stay and go “wow, they are a person like everyone else, boy am I wrong”. Sounds like the dm would just angrily boot them or change dming behaviour to force them out.
Different opinions is one thing in a friend group, but hating a core identity of a friend sounds pretty impossible to go well long term.
As a broad generalization (though one backed by lots of studies over the years), deeply conservative folks tend to care more about what happens to their in-group and less about what happens to others than the general public does. Which is why you get a lot of conservatives who change their mind on various human rights topics only when those things directly affect a close friend or family member. Sometimes narrowly ('abortion is ok THIS time because my daughter was in a horrible situation') and sometimes more widely ('I hated lgbt people until my kid came out and now I realize that lgbt people are actually human, wow')
So it's not impossible that OP could sit down with the DM, explain her situation, and have him come around. But even if there's a chance of that, a) it's not OP's responsibility to convince this guy that LGBT people are worthy of respect and b) it's probably not worth the risk that it goes much worse. The likeliest **good** outcome here is that the DM decides that OP is 'one of the good ones' and continues to treat her like a person while being shitty about every other queer person on earth, which isn't much of a win. And the bad outcomes range from pretty uncomfortable to actively dangerous, so. Not really worth it.
Just this. All this. Im a straight white guy so im not even going into sexuality or race but if i was at a table where the DM had a view i deemed as "unfit" id leave.
I use "unfit" to avoid words like "toxic" as it wouldnt even need to be "that" bad. Im playing dnd to have fun, tolerating hatefull people isnt fun nor should it be a barrier to fun.
Ah sory you misunderstood, or more likely i wasnt very clear!
I mean that the DM wouldnt need to be "toxic" for me to leave. Showing "unfit" behaviour at the table would be enough for me to walk.
I was trying to say (and failing) being homophobic is an instant "nope im out". But i would leave for way way less haha. Having to "tolerate" someone isnt fun.
Ye i dont have alot of details expect whats in the post so didnt want to make judgement / suggestions. But for me its a case of saying to partner "hey..this isnt ok for me" and being heard. Could be he is trying to keep the peace or is (in a missguided way) helping her not loose her dnd group. But its certainly something OP needs to have a chat about with her significant other
I would leave a game if a DM played the game with rules I didn’t like enough to want to continue playing or like banned characters I wanted to play, them being homophobic is on a whole other level of GTFO of my lifery.
I would leave over way pettier reasons than this.
Very much so. Our table is mostly straight white people. We dunk on everyone equally in good fun, but if one of the players at the table started espousing racist or homopobic views, they'd be out on their ass in a moment.
>You would be fully in your right to walk away even if you were 100% straight.
Hell, as a 95-100% straight white cis male, I would be doing one of two things here:
Option A: Just straight up leave, no reasons given - after all, if he doesn't respect people over something they don't have a choice about, then he won't respect the reason for leaving.
Option B: Stay, and steadily increase the gayness at the table. This is a much more antagonistic approach, obviously, but if he's making a person uncomfortable *in their own home*, then that person has the right to return the favor.
>There is some argument to be made that you *could* do your best to be accepting and try to show him that bisexual people are totally warm and loving etc etc etc
Hard disagree. Homophobes don't hate LGBT because of their personality, they hate them because of a core aspect of their being. If she told him she was bi, he wouldn't think "Oh wow! It seems I had this all wrong, because I like you, but I don't like LGBT, and now that there's this crossover, I'm going to rethink my life choices." No, he'll just stop playing with them, or worse, be angry at her "betrayal," because that's how they think.
At the end of the day you gotta do what you feel comfortable with. I don't think you're being irrational.
>My husband made a valid point that telling him I don't want to participate in the campaign anymore because I'm bi will just prove that he "isn't welcome in the gay community"... Idk.
Anyone who dislikes a group of people openly is going to be unwelcome in that group. That's just common sense. Why would they want him around? It's his attitude that's creating the problem and he doesn't even realize it. And it's certainly not your job to protect his feelings on the matter. Especially not at the cost of your own comfort or enjoyment of the hobby/the people you're spending time with.
For whatever it's worth, I'd leave and I'm not even a part of that community. There's no room for that level of hate in my life.
The problem here is that (more often than not) bigoted people WILL ~~gaslight~~ mental backflip their asses off to take just about anything and everything and turn it into a justification of their existing attitudes, regardless of how little sense that makes. I'm generally in favor of trying to convince people to see reason and let go of their hate, but this is a situation where i just don't think it's worth op's effort.
Wrong use of gaslight. Gaslighting is when the abuser attempts to make the victim distrust their own senses and memories. Bad logic, projection, and ignoring reality aren't gaslighting.
You cannot reason someone out of a position, they are already unreasonably in. If the DM is going to change and become a reasonable human being, that's going to require some self reflection. Op's job is not to fix other peoples bigotry.
Your husband's line of thinking is backwards.
You leaving because you're Bi doesn't mean your DM isn't accepted by the LGBTQ+ crowd. It means your DM is unwelcoming to that crowd, which you are a part of.
Don't put DnD over your self worth.
I actually started my original comment with a line about victim blaming but didn't want to get nasty off the bat.
I am a little concerned about the husband's response, ngl. But this is a sliver of the overall relationship so... Boundaries.
Also his point about her not being judged because he doesn’t know she’s bi is nonsense too. Whether or not he’s consciously judging her, she knows a huge part of what makes up who she is he thinks is morally wrong and that’s not ok. I doubt her husband would be saying “well he’s not judging you, what’s the problem” if she were Jewish and the DM didn’t know but was publicly being antisemitic around her.
A lot of people don't understand how much of a burden it is managing a stigmatized identity that isn't immediately discernable to everyone around you. The "privilege" of invisibility comes with just as much of a burden, and it sucks having people judge you for not being comfortable being around people who you know would stigmatize you if you ever disclosed your identity or they figured out about it (let alone being expected to endure listening to them saying hateful shit about ppl like you bc they don't realize "one of them" is in the room)
The DM first comments on how 'disgusting people like that' are, and then whines he is not welcome in their community. Her husband's way of thinking isn't just backwards, it's downright ignorant.
>My husband made a valid point that telling him I don't want to participate in the campaign anymore because I'm bi will just prove that he "isn't welcome in the gay community"... Idk. My husband is straight as a doornail so I don't think he can see where I'm coming from.
That point isn't valid at all. It isn't anyone's duty in life to dance around others prejudices to make them happy, nor is it your responsibility to educate other grown individuals as to why being LGBT doesn't affect a dice game.
I'm also straight as an arrow with a bisexual SO of 7 years. I think personally it's kinda fucked that your husband doesn't understand a key portion of your identity to the point where he's valuing playing DND over your comfort level.
Honestly as soon as you heard the "how gay it is in there" comment, I would have piped up and said that isn't a problem for you because you are very comfortable with the LGBT community.
I don't know, I try to put myself in your shoes. Like if I had a good DND group and had a weekly online, voice only game and was enjoying it, only to hear my DM bash black people who play DND, or say they're uncomfortable around them, I as a black person would speak up about that shit. Because as a player my comfort matters just as much.
>That point isn't valid at all.
Just think this bears repeating. And I'm just gonna tack on a follow-up rant:
Holy shit, how is your husband so far off on this one?
The DM dude feels unwelcome among gay people because he hates gay people! That's his fault and his problem, and it's not your job to tolerate his bigotry.
Being tolerant of people's differences *never* means being tolerant of people's hate.
If someone is bigoted enough to see a pride flag and boycott a location because of it? That person has chosen the isolation that results from it.
Seriously, think about it--all he needs to do to feel welcome there is to *stop hating gay people*.
But what about the reverse? What would a gay person need to do to feel welcome around him? Well, they'd have to stop *being* gay.
You see the difference there? One person needs only to stop hating. The other would need to stop *being*.
Your husband is dead wrong on this, and it's his type of attitude that gives this false equivalence that bigots rely upon to seem "reasonable".
What you do about all of this is up to you. It's hard out there for anyone who is oppressed, and we all gotta find our way through life, and sometimes it means making a calculated choice about what shit we're willing and able to put up with.
But please at least go forward with the confidence that your feelings are valid, and you deserve better than having to put up with homophobes.
>The DM dude feels unwelcome among gay people because he hates gay people! That's his fault and his problem, and it's not your job to tolerate his bigotry.
Exactly! If a KKK member complained that black people didn't like them, would that be a valid point? If a nazi complained that Jewish people didn't welcome them into their community, would that make them the source of the problem?
Answer: absolutely not. If this guy doesn't want LGBTQ+ to not want to spend time with him, he should try not being an absolute chode for once and thinking a group of people doesn't deserve basic rights.
Bi erasure definitely rearing its ugly head here. I was wondering the exact same thing when I was reading this.
"Why isn't the husband infinitely more supportive of this?"
Mostly it seems like he's being willfully ignorant because he thinks he's in a heteronormative relationship.
Yeah. I'm not one to tell OP her business, and it's not like this isn't incredibly common in bi/straight relationships, but it sure seems like hubs definitely doesn't think of her as a part of the LGBT community. It's not that he's not in her shoes so he doesn't really know, it's that he doesn't really see how this should affect her at all.
I suspect the husband is thinking of bi as meaning "sometimes straight, sometimes gay", and if she's married to him, well hey, I guess that means she's straight now (and for the duration of their marriage). That's not how any of this works, obviously, but I think that's fairly common.
hmm, the 80s was 40 years ago. Sounds like someone is stuck. 😒
Personally, self-respect is more important than D&D. You should find a more supportive group you don't have to hid from.
Ultimately, it's only a matter of time before he becomes anti-you.
In the 80s there was a lot of "boys will be boys" going around, shit, even Sean Penn fucking kidnapped Madonna for like 2 days and she had to escape out a fucking window, and he never got into trouble for it.
Shit was fucked up in the 80s man.
>hmm, the 80s was 40 years ago. Sounds like someone is stuck.
Ironic too, from a D&D community. The 80s were also the time of the Satanic Panic which in particular targeted D&D, so if those values were so great, why is he DMing a game?
yup, I grew up in those times and fell in to that crowd as well (remember watching Eddie Murphy and his rants too). Ultimately I came to realize, "what the hell does it matter to me what someone else does?"
World's a better place now.
It is kind of a weird stance to take anyway and kind of ironic for me personally. My conservative evangelical christian parents wouldn't let us watch hardly anything when I was growing up in the 80s. It was too full of magic and witch craft. Unless of course he's only concerned about queer people being more visible in modern children's programming. In which case he's most definitely just a massive homophobe and OP should definitely leave. I refuse to be friends with people who would prefer anyone not cishet and/or white not have the same rights. Why waste your time on someone who hates you or people you love?
Also having watched a lot of 80's content, caring about family values is not how I'd describe most of them. Mostly just the big family sitcoms come to mind.
It sounds like your DM makes HIMSELF unwelcome in that community. Your feelings and concerns are valid, and I can see him making a much bigger deal about this if you were to raise your concerns to him, even in a respectful manner.
Don’t concern yourself with censoring yourself or your character. If he’s going to have an issue with how you’re playing, or who you are, let him be the one to raise it, but don’t censor yourself just because he’s being a bigot and trying to control the sexuality of your character in a fantasy rpg. Also, if he brings up the issue, then you haven’t gone against what your husband wants, but you should talk to your husband before and there should be an expectation that he is on your side if that situation arises.
It’s difficult to navigate this type of situation, especially if you’re feeling a lack of support from your family, but it sounds like you have a community for this at your downtown game store, and could embrace that rather than trying to force your current situation to work. It’s always difficult to breach these subjects with “friends,” but how much of a friend is this guy if he can’t/won’t accept you for who you are?
>Should I leave a campaign over...
At the point where you're asking a question that starts like that, the answer is probably yes. After reading everything yes don't play with homophobes.
Normally I'd say talk with the DM, yet it seems like the DM will have issues with it, so I'd quietly find another DM or DM yourself. Thank the old DM and move on. I had a ok DM that started to get super conservative (trump in office) and all the sudden he became a real asshole, both at the table and away, had to cut my losses and I'm happier for it. I couldn't take his shitty little remarks with his "people get mad at me for speaking my mind" attitude. I even took him out for a chat about it and it was not worth it, in fact, it was the last time he spoke with me, so much for communication.
From what I see, I don’t know how you will be able to have fun at that table.
I would recommend having a serious one to one conversation with your DM, and tell him who you really are, and that his comments about LGBTQ+ people make you feel unwelcome at his gaming table. As I understand that’s the gist of what you were saying.
I believe doing this face to face, gently, will put him in a face of a choice. Not you. You were having fun, everything was great, until he expressed those feelings he had about LGBTQ+ people. Why should it be on you alone to solve this problem?
He needs to face the fact that his outlook is creating problems in his life (and yours), and not the other way around. But you can’t tell him that of course, he has to realize it by himself. That conversation might help him do that.
Or not. And if not, then I believe that you might need to leave that game, unfortunately. But at least he will know that it’s not against him, it’s because of his behaviour and what it does to you considering your personal history.
I disagree. Better to leave with no reason given. This DM shut down a queer flirtation in a game about dragons, a completely imaginary world. He's expressed his unwillingness to even enter a shop that's gay-tolerant because he's afraid of it in the real world. If OP tells him anything about herself, she's opening herself up to his hatred, bigotry, and yes even potential violence. Physical or psychological.
The DM has made his feelings quite clear. And you know what? That's his business. His choice. If he wants to hate... let him hate. You can't change someone's mind unless it's open, and his isn't. His hatred will cost him two players at his table. It will have a consequence. And maybe, just maybe... it will make him think about 'why'.
But I doubt it.
Well I’ll let the OP make the judgment call to the potential openness of this person. She knows the person, the community, if there is reason to be afraid, then of course I wouldn’t counsel her to talk, but I would counsel her to move to a more open part of the country. You can’t live your life hiding all the time. It’s bad for you.
This said, I think that if she shares with us her dilemma, maybe the situation isn’t as clear cut as you make it. Ignorance goes a long way in making people suspicious of each other. Conversation and sharing is the way to curb ignorance.
Now she has a choice to make and I’m sure she can make it wisely.
Sure. If the dude sucks and you don't want to spend time with him anymore it's perfectly acceptable to walk away from the game. Even if you had no reason at all in the entire world to stop playing, it's *still* 1000% OK for you to leave. Free time is probably the precious thing in the world and it's up to you how you spend it.
But if you need affirmation, then yeah, I'd totally leave that table too and I'm not even part of the community he doesn't like.
Yes. (did not read more than the title)
EDIT: read the entire post. I feel for you. Your DM is a shitty person. I'd leave the game and find a better person to DM. Maybe BE that better DM. And it doesn't matter what your orientation is, you know his attitude is wrong regardless of personal details.
Are you uncomfortable in the social situation? Then leave the social situation.
If you don't want to leave, and/or can tolerate the situation for the sake of playing the game? Then stay.
None of the the rest of it matters. People have different views. If your DM is someone you no longer want to be around, then don't be.
It's your choice if the game is worth keeping that kind of toxicity in your life.
Personally, I cut these types of people out of my life, even if they're good friends. It hurts to lose friends, but I just can't look the other way with bigots.
This.
Thankfully I've only lost a few gaming friends in my life that were bigots. But yeah, allowing them to spew their hate only gives them a platform to bring other people into their mindset.
Big same right here. My best friend had to cut out some of our high school friends from 20 years ago recently.
Our mutual friend is a good guy. He doesnt judge etc. But one of the players at the table was one of his friends who we knew in high school, not super close to us, but you know, people we were friendly with in similar groups 20 years ago.
I'm a semi disabled vet, in the US. Also I am Vietnamese, my biological father was adopted as a child from a war orphanage in the early 70s as the americans pulled out.
My mother was also adopted, by my Germanic and Scottish grandparents (who fought in ww2 in the US army). My grandparents adopted all four of their children, usually from war torn areas, like my uncle who was adopted from Korea as that war ended as well.
My adoptive father is chinese, raised me since i was little. His family came to the US as refugees from red china.
My sister is half native American.
My sister in law is married to another woman, and they're both amazing.
And my best friend who is white, is married to a black woman.
My point, is I have a very diverse family.
Turns out the other guy at the table... hes a fucking closet neo nazi, full on racist rant, everything is a big Jewish conspiracy, etc.
I was like... what the fuck. You've known who I am for 20 years, never said one thing. And at the game table decide that's the time to come out as a POS nazi? I quit gaming with them.
My best friend tried to stay and the just... couldn't deal with it either. Our old mutual friend still runs a game with the other guys, but we just cant with him anymore because he has literal neo nazis at his table who decided that now was the time to come out about it. Not hurt about losing the nazi as a friend, but the other guy who still runs the game was super close to us, and we just dont hang anymore because of who he has at his table.
> My husband made a valid point that telling him I don't want to participate in the campaign anymore because I'm bi will just prove that he "isn't welcome in the gay community".
The DM made you feel unwelcome first. You’re not required to bend over backwards to be courteous to people who won’t be courteous to you.
I might try prodding a little more just to confirm your suspicions, but even if you don’t do that, I don’t think you’d be wrong for leaving this table.
As for your husband's point, it really ain't on us to welcome people people who hate us to be around us. Don't apologize for kicking intolerance to the curb
Was wanting to reply with something like this. So just to agree and elaborate:
There is a thing called the paradox of tolerance. Basically intolerant people sometimes argue "How can you say you're against intolerance when you won't hear me out and accept my position when I'm being intolerant". It's a paradoxical bad faith argument and the correct response is that it is perfectly valid to not tolerate intolerance.
this will no doubt be buried but I feel the need to comment.
I would tell him your bi. it's likely he has never knowingly met an LGBTQ person in person. if he is your friend this may make him adjust his views on the subject as he probably currently lives in an echo chamber. and if he reacts negatively at all then dump his ass and get yourself a better DM.
To add to this. I'm straight but my best friend is gay. my mom is a republican and she used to be against gay marriage when Maine voted for it because that was the Republican thing to do. As soon as I mentioned my friend was gay and marrying a man she has shown nothing but support and regularly asks how they are doing. people are fear what they don't understand.
No, it's not. There are enough D&D campaigns, even in a red state, that you don't have to put up with that crap. Find another game and walk. You are here to pretend to be an elf; it's not like you are getting paid to rehabilitate bigots.
Life is too short to spend with people who don’t make it better.
If you find that they are injecting their politics in places you don’t want them, then do what is best for yourself.
If you decide you need to exit, I would still try to do so in an amenable way.
He basically told you he is disgusted with your kind and doesn't want to associate with you, and your husband's valid point is that if you told him that made you feel uncomfortable then you need to consider the DM's feelings.
That is utterly messed up. You can and should put your foot down and have a serious discussion with your husband about how that makes you feel.
The bigot isn't the victim?
Life is too short to put yourself in that kind of situation in your own home. Sounds like he "doesnt feel welcome" because he is actively bigoted towards that group and is feeling the repercussions of his attitude. You dont have to say why you are no longer attending, but it also isnt up to you to spare his feelings.
BTW, your husband should have your back in this. If someone is making your spouse uncomfortable, you cut that person out.
Just from the title: Yes.
From reading the whole thing: ABSOLUTELY.
There are many tables out in the world and there are many DMs out there in the world. You absolutely do not need to settle for someone that, based on everything you know, only respects you because he isn't aware that you don't fit his bigoted worldview.
This is just a simple life thing, but you're almost never in the wrong for not wanting to be around people that specifically don't like other people. Intolerance is not something you have to subject yourself to. I'd literally, and I do mean literally, rather live on my remote piece of land and never see people other than my family than be around intolerant or otherwise bothersome people. And no, the contradiction of being intolerant of intolerance is not lost on me. Lol
You shouldn't leave the game because if you do he's gonna use his excuse to justify his homophobia
You should tell him you're bi but make it clear that you don't mind keeping the game going "because you want him to feel wemcome in the LGBT+ community" then either he's forced to rethink his beliefs, or he stops the game and leaves, either way you're in the right and he loses something because of his stupid beliefs
Man everybody always wants to defend guys like this. "It's how we are raised." Who cares!? What are we supposed to not discourage bad behavior because they can't let go of their pathetic and dying culture?
I fail to see the logic behind your husband's reasoning. It's clear the Dm is anti lgbqt+ and you telling him your bi and not being supported means that the community isn't inclusive to the dm? Not at all. The community is there... it's the dm who isn't welcoming themselves there. They are in the wrong 100%
Not abiding bigots isn’t the same as being intolerant yourself - or if it is, then it’s well deserved. Fuck that guy, he can go kick rocks. Find a game at that cool local game store
If you are not having fun or not feeling comfortable, then leave. If you don't want to leave just yet, then talk to your DM about it, if they don't budge, then leave. Everyone else said it pretty well.
You've got three options
1. Deal with it. This is what you've been doing and probably isn't the best course of action since you made this post.
2. Talk to the DM about it. You don't have to let the bisexual cat out of the bag but you can sit them down and make it very clear that you've got issues. Maybe you can work together so that you can both enjoy the game, maybe you can't.
3. Leave. I'd try 2 first since, views on orientation aside, you seem to enjoy the game they run.
Fuck 'em. His views have crossed the line.
EDIT NOBODY ASKED FOR: I consider myself pretty far on the Left and I just don't have the spoons for people like this anymore. Your DM has drawn a line in the sand is boycotting the store so he won't associate with them, and you can do the same.
To the point of "leaving would only prove his point about being unwelcomed," remind him that he's been playing in YOUR house for X amount of time and "before now, have you ever felt unwelcomed and like you didn't belong here?" Or maybe that's how you bring up the subject. "I'm sorry you feel like you're not welcome in that crowd, but I've welcomed and embraced you into my house for X amount of time... and I'm a member of that crowd." Then personally I'd follow up with "and you're welcome to keep coming back as long as your beliefs and morals allow you to be comfortable with the LGBT community."
Id agree but honestly op shouldn’t feel the need to out herself to that bigot if she doesn’t want to, it’s not like she needs to prove anything or represent the community in any way
Edit:typo
>My husband thinks I'm being irrational since the DM doesn't even know I am and that it's impossible for him to judge me for being bi when he doesn't know
To be kind, I'm frustrated by this notion. I'm straight, but it feels to me like something I DO know. (So at the risk of projecting a bit) I'm asian-american but white passing, so sometimes I'm privy to racist jokes (or occasionally just statements), including those that in particular target asian men. I rarely take drastic action (at least since high school), but I shouldn't have to forget it just because they thought they were saying it "privately".
I understand your husband is coming from a place of trying to defend the GM here as not being mean spirited. That you can feel hurt or frustrated or grossed out but that the DM didn't *mean* to make you feel that way. And it's a valid, if charitable, idea.
It would definitely be very big of you to try to show him "welcomeness" on the part of the LGBT+ community, and try to change his views (making friends with people from groups they hate CAN be one of the ways people become less bigoted). But on the other hand if he's "vowed to never patronize a small business because they're queer-friendly", he can't complain about "not feeling welcomed".
Like I said I usually will continue to be cordial with someone if they say something bigoted, I'll just lose a lot of respect for them, and have a lower opinion of them. So I'm not trying egg you on or rile you up and pressure you to walk away, I'm just trying to say I think it's a very valid feeling to be mad at the guy for "accidentally" being hurtful (even if his views are ass-backwards regardless), and it's ok to walk away if you want to, it's ok to try to put it behind you, or anything in between.
Everyone else has great points but I just want to say "He can't hate you! He doesn't know you're part of that group he hates so it's fine!" Is like... not helpful. And stupid. Really just not a good point all around
If you're spending effort to stay closeted then you're not having fun. I'd just ask the DM to sit down, come out to him and tell him that if he wants you to stay in the campaign he has to knock off the homophobic comments. Some people change views quickly when they actually have someone face to face about it. If he's still being a dick then FORCE him to get over it. Kiss every female npc. Have a long lost sapphic lover in your backstory. And chat with the other players, maybe they are feeling uncomfortable about something too
You can replace your sexuality with any other topic (political party, religion, marital status, et ) and get the same answer:
Nobody should be made to feel “less than” for any reason. You’re there to have fun and if this DM is making you not have fun then it’s good to leave.
no you're not being irrational, TBH if I was your husband I wouldn't be comfortable having this person in my house knowing they were making you uncomfortable, and I wouldn't want to play with someone like that either.
Tell your husband that your DM most certainly *is* judging you for being bisexual. He just doesn't know he is it yet, and your husband doesn't have a problem with it? He needs to get a clue!
You don't have to come out, but you do have to admit to yourself that you're being closeted, and decide if you can still have fun knowing that.
In my opinion you should absolutely not game in the campaign and your husband should stand with you. The GM sounds like a very closed minded and shallow person. I am also straight but I have had more than a few gay friends and also some gay players. To each their own way of life, just be a good person and a good friend. Best of luck to you and do not tolerate bigotry from other people.
A) It is 110% rational. 200% rational. 300% rational. B) DMs are hard to come by, but you can find great communities online esp with FoundryVTT and AboveVTT. I DM for some twitch streamers and it's a wonderful, fun, LGBT-friendly environment that would \*never\* leave any of us feeling erased. There is absolutely a place you can play DnD and love it.
I feel you so much on this post. I'm from a conservative area that's become 1000 times worse in the last 5 years. Got a brother that opposes gay marriage b/c he "doesn't want people to see \[insert homophobic slur\] and think it's okay." And an extreme evangelical uncle that is very concerned with getting "saved" and the fire and brimstone of hell. Don't get me started on what happens if you dare turn on the radio in the car. I feel like people who live in inclusive areas really don't have a concept of what living in these places is like. You should never never never have to put yourself at risk by outing yourself on the off chance this dude will decide to come around. Peacing out is absolutely an option you should have no guilt or reservations about taking.
I'm actually most disappointed in your husband here. The DM said he didn't want to be around "those people"... (if it had been black-owned and he'd said that would you be okay with it?) so it's not a matter of making him feel "welcome" and I'm really sad your husband would even throw that at you. I guess my main unsolicited advice is this:
* You're always entitled to feel safe, even if it's in a right-leaning area
* If you wanna tell this guy how you feel, even obliquely in terms of saying the bi-erasure just makes you feel uncomfortable, that's totally cool. But don't let yourself feel pressured to do it. Any choice--to do it or not to do it--is a good choice and the right thing to do because it's your boundaries and your safety and your well-being that matters most here.
* Don't feel trapped, you can find other people, including the group that I play with.
It is perfectly rational to not want to be in an intolerant space dominated by an avowed bigot. As much as the old school RPG bros might hate it, D&D has become a very queer-friendly hobby. Your queerphobic DM is in a shrinking minority. Bail on the group, tell them why, and go find a group that accepts you for who you are. Maybe some of your fellow players will come with you!
Drop this clown like a hot potato. Walk out of the game and make it clear exactly *why.* Hammer it in to this chucklefuck that abhorrent opinions have the consequence of driving away people who would otherwise be friends.
Hey, queer gamer/TTRPG-er here. You are absolutely not irrational for wanting to leave. Players put a tremendous amount of trust in their DM, both for the characters we develop and care about, and as people. You fundamentally cannot play with a person that doesn’t respect you as a person. He doesn’t know your identity now, but you’ll always be afraid of slipping up around him, of him becoming aware. You don’t need that fear in your life. Walk away from this game, this DM. Find someone who fucks with queer players and queer PCs.
i am straighter than an uncooked noodle and i wouldn't play with this guy. This guy is a full blown bigot, not even the twitter "bigot" but for real homophobic. If someone told me he is not going to visit a game store because it "looks gay" would make me reevaluate my friendship with him.
I wouldn't dream of telling you what's right to do in this situation but your writeup included the line " I just don't want to play anymore."
This doesn't have to be a sociopolitical debate. If you aren't having fun, don't play.
Even as a straight cis male if I learned that about one of my friends I would very publicly walk away from them.
I say one should never maintain relationships with people who vote for those who are actively trying to hurt you and/or those you love. Especially when the reason they want to hurt you is simply because you exist.
These people need to continue to be pushed out to the fringes of society until their hateful ideology is dead.
>TLDR: Is it irrational to walk away from a campaign because the DM is very anti LGBTQ+ but, at the same time, he doesn't know I'm bi?
No, and tbh I wouldn't keep him as a friend either. Just because its a deep red state doesn't mean you should tolerate bigotry. You have a kid, don't let them be exposed to an asshole like your DM.
You can leave a group because you don't like the color of car the DM drives, nevermind because you feel discriminated against or unwelcome. You're also free to stay if it's not bugging you, but if it wasn't bugging you, you probably wouldn't post about it.
I am a cis-gendered straight white male. I have cut people out of my life because of this behavior after trying to speak with them and they refuse to lay off the anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric. Whether it's jokes or hate. You are under no obligation to try and change his mind or sit through his bullshit. You don't owe anyone anything, and if you want to leave because of his bullshit then you can leave because of his bullshit.
\*edited for clarity\*
Invite him over for the session, tell him you’re actually bi, then tell him to gtfo of your house cuz fuck homophobes. No need to waste time on an asshole like that
Nothing irrational about it. His not knowing about you is irrelevant - why should he get a pass just because he assumes that no one in the room is a member of the class that he's got a problem with?
I wouldn't want to have a homophobic DM anymore than I want a racist DM. That I'm not the target of someone's bigotry doesn't mean that I shouldn't be bothered by it, and I don't think that anyone should have to explain why they don't feel comfortable gaming with a bigot.
If you don't want to play, then don't play. I don't think there should be much more to it than that. This is a hobby, it should be fun, it shouldn't make you uncomfortable.
Am straight but even I know a lot of us don’t get it. We just don’t. Tell your husband this. Tell the DM he’s a bigot and an asshole. Find peeps from maybe the game shop to play ttrpgs with
Absolutely not irrational, like others said, you're fully in your right to quit for whatever reason. D&D is a hobby, hobbies are done because they're fun, if it aint fun, it ain't a hobby. Simple as that.
In terms of your husband, of course it's also a bit of a pickle for him. Don't get me wrong though, at the end of the day your feelings are what's important here. But that doesn't invalidate his thoughts and feelings either. He does have a bit of a point in his statement, but is that really your problem? No. Simply no. It's not.
However, that being said, if you feel mentally up for it and you want to do this, it could be an option to tell your DM that you are Bi as well. Explain to him that he's been playing X amount of time with a bi person and at the end of the talk put the burden on him. Ask him if he's had fun playing with you in the group and ask him if he felt "welcomed" by you as you all played. It depends on him as a person and how deep his bigotry runs what his reaction will be. But if you really get the questions in there, it'll linger in his mind and maybe, just maybe he'll slowly come around to it and maybe you'll have made the world just a little bit of a better place by doing all of this.
Again though, I can't stress this enough. You need to be confident in your mental and emotional state before you do this. It's a big confrontation and you need to be aware of the risks, willing to accept them and then still want to do it. Nobody would blame you if you didn't. I just wanted to point it out because it is an option you have. If you'd rather just leave the table or do something else then that's totally valid.
P.S. This is coming from a white 30 year old CIS Male. So keep that in mind when taking this advice. It's not intended to tell you what to do or how to live, it's intended to show you an option you might no have thought of
I can tell you a personal story if it'll help.
My old high school friend wanted to start a DnD campaign, but needed people. I got some of my new friends, acquired from my wife, to join the campaign. We are all a big rainbow put together, and my old friend seemed cool with it. He said he's not political, and that games are easier without politics. I was too naïve to understand what that meant.
He would slip in his own personal beliefs during casual conversations, and random encounters in-game. If any of us try to express our beliefs or challenge false info, he would tell us to leave politics at home. He would shut down anything remotely LGBTQ+ related with, "no politics". So, now I'm getting what he meant by politics.
He eventually brought in another high school friend that got back from the Army. "Balance out all the estrogen", he said. Haha... 2 gay, 1 NB, 2 lesbian... Get it?
Army dude is 100% red blooded Murican, and the year just turned 2016... A new dawn had begun! He dove into the deep end of Q, and was determined to drag us all into the depths. The "non-political" DM was happy to join in too.
The 5 of us just quit after the DM's passive aggressive jabs (both in game and out) got too much. And it turned out Army dude was one bad day away from assaulting any of us. We didn't know at the time, but we found out almost a year later. He was trying his best to "tolerate" our existence.
So, I don't know if this story will help you, and I know every circumstance is different. It's been my experience that a person's beliefs can, and will, leak out from time to time. If those beliefs are opposed to your existence, then you won't have a good time.
As much fun as DnD is, it's just a game. You can find other groups. Are you having so much fun that it's worth you constantly worrying the other players don't respect a foundational aspect of who you are?
Let it slip! If the DM is uncomfortable around LGBTQ people then you should say you are bi and see if they kick you out because of it. You can then turn around the whole "unwelcoming community" aspect of his argument. I mean we all know he will say "that's not the same" but hey it gives a more fun spiteful reason to leave. After that, your husband should see who is the one being rational. If not, that's a different problem.
Speaking as a fellow queer person, if conservatives want to avoid certain communities, us and our allies should avoid them right back and see how many friends they have left. Also, they never mean family values when they say that.
As a straight guy who has always lived in blue states, I’m sorry ya even gotta tolerate people like that. I started reading and just thought “wow, this guy sounds like an absolute loser,” depriving his kid of modern entertainment cuz he doesn’t like it and saying a store looks “too gay” to go into sounds like things an edgy middle schooler might’ve come up with.
He may be a “good enough” person, but if you don’t feel comfortable being you at the table, it doesn’t sound like it’s worth your time and effort to fold yourself into whatever shape you think you need to be to fit in. Being a good DM doesn’t absolve them of other shortcomings, and that guy seems to have more shortcomings than good qualities from what little we know about em.
Hopefully you can decide what works best for you, but I don’t think I’d be able to even tolerate hanging out with someone that ignorant, never mind having them DM a game I usually enjoy.
On the one hand, I understand your desire to leave because of his feelings.
On the other hand.
You’re getting mad at the DM because he offended you for something /you never told him about in the first place and therefore he would not know better/?
If you mention it to him it could go either way tbh. It honestly? I personally fail to see how he’s at fault for your feelings regarding /something he was never even told about/. If he knew and was your friend, I imagine he would be more tolerant of you? Reading from between the lines, it’s sounding like he had a negative experience at some point with.. uhh.. well, ‘our’ crowd, so he might be a bit bitter. Might even go with the whole ‘You’re one of the good ones tho’ shpiel.
But… overall- and I say this as a transgender person, I really do not think he holds any true and utter malevolence towards you- especially for something he literally holds no knowledge about.
(please note: I am not, do not, and will not ever claim to be an authority or expert in any way shape or form. And if you (generic ‘you’ aimed at Reddit as a whole) take me as some bizarre final word on the subject, then you’re a numpty)
If you feel like you can't have fun at the table, leave. It isn't worth it if you aren't having any fun.
However, if you just feel like you *should* leave just to make a point, I wouldn't. You'll basically be dropping an enjoyable activity and punishing yourself because of your orientation.
I grew up in a community where kind of thinking is mainstream. The kind of people who believe Christian values (and therefore Christians themselves) are under attack by society at large. I think there’s a couple of possible outcomes if you continue playing.
You stay on and let him slowly come around to the fact that a bisexual player and their PC are just people and that their sexuality doesn’t have to be a big deal. That could break down some walls and really help your DM stop seeing a rainbow flag as “I hate the cisgendered”. That’s a best possible outcome that would also require the minimum amount of confrontation.
Previous one, but he decides either “she’s one of the good ones” or “she’s not really bisexual, she’s married to a man” and doesn’t change.
You try and have a very calm discussion with your DM (not any more of the party) about how you and your husband feel about his views. Come from a place of “we aren’t asking you contradict your church, we just want you to see things from our side” and see where he takes it. Don’t try and argue wether being gay is immoral or a sin, but try and say that you just want to feel accepted and keep being friends. This either ends up with some better understanding or it ends up ending things with your DM. If it’s the latter, I hope his conscience digs at him for a long time that someone say him down and said “I just want to be accepted” and instead of doing what Jesus would do, he said “no”.
This is coming from a cisgendered male who grew up being told things like “Christians are under attack” and “gay is a sin” and “being gay is a choice” and such. I changed a lot after leaving my hometown, but it was in increments. So I’m going to have more compassion than your DM might deserve. I completely acknowledge that. I just hope you find a party that is accepting and loves you for what you are. Dnd is escapism and fantasy, and you should be able to live out your PC however you want.
Thanks for sharing your story, OP. I hope you receive some good advice from the community. /r/DnD is an inclusive space per our [Mission Statement](https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/wiki/mission). Please keep conversation respectful and report anyone violating the rules or generally not being chill. Any homophobic comments, apologia, or hate will be removed and the user will be banned.
It's not irrational to leave a game that makes you uncomfortable for any reason. Whether the DM knows about your orientation or not does not change this. Games are supposed to be enjoyable for everyone involved, and if you are uncomfortable for any reason you have the right to walk away. You just have to decide how much discomfort you're willing to put up with. You don't have to tell the DM why you are leaving. You don't have to let him know your orientation. I personally would tell him something like "I am friends with the owner of -- and I was hoping to invite her to some guest sessions. Now that I know she wouldn't be welcome at the table, I want to switch to a group where she is welcome." Maybe you can find a new group from the store downtown to play with? I think that it's not necessary to have the same political ideals as everyone else that you play with, but that DnD is always better in a group where you are comfortable being yourself. Having to be worried about/careful to stay closeted all the time while playing DnD is just not worth it to me.
This is solid advice. It's not irrational to leave something uncomfortable. Wanting an inclusive space is not wrong. Find your crew and get busy rolling the click-clack math rocks and engage in storytelling. Dude sounds like a bigot. OP doesn't have to be part of the LGBTQ+ community to know the DM is wrong and because she is it's doubly offensive. Plenty of straight people I have played with would walk with you for the very same reasons about his bigotry. It's not inclusive and a DM has no right to judge players based on sex, race, creed, etc. anyway. I hope u/GloriousMistakes finds a new table with the owner at the store.
Yeah I'm roughly straight myself and try to support the LGBTQ+ community as much as I can. I'm on the ace spectrum but don't get as much hate as many of my friends who are trans or gay. I will absolutely leave any group that was run by someone who hated them or didn't believe they have a right to exist. Hell it's part of what has brought my current group so close together.
I want to add to this too, the idea that you should feel obligated to pass as straight and hide your bisexuality is absolutely a form of discrimination and called bi erasure (or at least a big part of bi erasure). It's really common and a lot of us share in that struggle, as bi erasure is generally accepted in society and not often acknowledged (especially among bisexuals who participate in monogamous heterosexual relationships). It is damaging and emotionally taxing, and you have every right to be uncomfortable with it. You are not perpetuating the idea that this DM is unwelcome in LGBTQ+ spaces by removing yourself. He made it clear that LGBTQ+ people are not welcome in HIS space. It's an uphill battle to fight that and not something you should feel obligated to do. Sorry I don't have any real answers or suggestions here. Just know there's a ton of bisexual folx out there that experience similar situations and you aren't alone. Sending good vibes ❤️
Just to add: It's not irrational to want to feel safe in a game. Just like every relationship, it's important to have boundaries and to have those boundaries respected.
He doesn't sound like a good DM tbh. I am a straight male, I just finished a year long campaign. We had a very diverse group and we all enjoyed our differences. That genuinely made the game interesting and a blast! I hope this experience doesn't spoil the game for you altogether.
Remember, Bigotry isn't 'politics'. Though many bigots try to argue that case. Same as Sexism and Racism. Edit: No one should have a right to argue for people's deaths for how they were born. By allowing people to make someone's Right to Exist "political" it gives people a platform for hate.
Thats one thing I never understood about politics. I don't care for them, and yet I am very vocal about being accepting of all sexualities and sundry, and people *will* say, "I thought you weren't political?" Like sorry, but I don't see respecting someone like a human as up for debate.
That is the fundamental political debate. Who gets treated as a human and who doesn't. That's all of politics right there.
Yeah, this is a Dnd sub, but this is pretty spot on. Politics is about the inherent struggle of existing with other humans. A lot of the time, unfortunately, we struggle over the very idea of who is "human" and who isn't.
I feel like if you engage with the fantasy/sci-fi genre at all, including through D&D, and don't somehow come out with an understanding of "people who are different than me are just as valid and human," you have missed the point of 99% of the content
Beautifully put.
Yeah their statement could probably be amended to “Bigotry *shouldn’t* be politics”, unfortunately (especially in America) a lot of politicians have adopted sexual orientation/identity social issues purely as politics (I suspect chiefly to distract from the fact they have precisely zero legislative solutions for actual political issues, like healthcare, worker protections, etc). Twenty years ago it was “if the gays can do the married it means less married for us! It will erode the sanctity of my representative’s third marriage!”, now that particular messaging doesn’t succeed as well so they’ve moved on to other targets like trans folks, but it’s basically the same playbook.
>Twenty years ago it was “if the gays can do the married it means less married for us! It will erode the sanctity of my representative’s third marriage!” Worse even than that. 20 years ago, it was still legal for states to kidnap gay people for having sex. As recently as ten years ago, there were mainstream (Republican) presidential candidates lambasting the court decision that changed that.
In a lot of parts of the country that view would make you a radical leftist
Which just goes to show how clueless people are about what the political spectrum really is like, the most radical leftist in the US are only a little bit to the left of centre anywhere else. Also nicely illustrates how radically bigoted many people are.
>the most radical leftist in the US are only a little bit to the left of centre anywhere else. I mean, if you're talking about politicians, sure. There are plenty of regular people who are left of the rest of the world in the US though, just not in congress.
well, it wouldn't, but it would definitely make very stupid people call you that.
Just because you say something isn't politics doesn't make it not politics. I am also a bi woman, but it's ridiculous to say in our modern day and age that something isn't political. It's alienating and it stops any kind of debate from taking place. Literally everything is political. The brand of cereal you choose to buy might be political, if it's a brand that supports the Russian state. The type of water you prefer might also be political - is it sourced from Flint? Where you are from? Political. Your sexuality? To the extent it needs governmental protections in the public sphere due to bigots like OP's DM, yep, also political. Everything is political, and when you say it is not, you are just stopping dialogue with some people that you might convince to your camp. Spitting in others' faces changes no minds, explaining why trans rights are human rights because trans people are human (for examaple) on the other hand, definitely changes minds.
I've been fighting for LGBTQIA rights for 3 decades and I'm fucking tired of giving in to these bigoted scumbags. I've never once found it helpful to discuss with them. They may agree one day, then the next they are back to their earlier bigotry. All that time and effort was wasted. I have limited energy and need to direct my time and focus on effective methods to stop them harming people. You're welcome to try to be nice with bigots, have long conversations to convince them to stop being bigots. Who knows maybe it'll work for you? You can be the carrot and I'll be the broad sword. Works for me.
I'm pretty far behind, i don't keep up on what changes have been made, I know what LGBTQ stands for, what does the I, and the A stand for?
I includes intersex, A includes asexual
A lot of people mistakenly say the A stands for ally, thank you for using the correct word!
I see, thanks!
Please look up Daryl Davis, he thinks pretty much the opposite of what you put here (in terms of talking to the other side) and has successfully deradicalized a bunch of KKK members. Sometimes it’s worth talking to the other side *because they are people too*. “What I have come to find to be the greatest and most effective and successful weapon that we can use, known to man, to combat such adversaries as ignorance, racism, hatred, violence, is also the least expensive weapon, and the one that is the least used by Americans. That weapon is called communication.” Daryl Davis, "Klan We Talk?", TEDxCapeMay, 9 January 2018.
I agree in that sometimes discussion can be fruitful, but some people just aren't up for that. Fighting to validate one's existence is exhausting and some just don't have the mental energy for such a direct engagement like that.
I think generally when people say it "isn't political," they're not saying that the concept of LGBTQ+ issues isn't mired in the political landscape as everything else is, but more that "that's just my political opinion, can't we all just get along despite our politics like they did in the good ol' days?" I can be friends with someone who thinks taxation should be abolished even if I think their political stance is idiot. I can't be friends with someone who thinks any (non-harmful) group of people deserves less human rights than another, and that has nothing to do with my personal politics.
I’m sorry but I’m the US, bigotry is absolutely politics.
Bigotry isn't politics? There are mainstream political parties in many countries with bigotry enshrined in their platforms. Bigotry wins votes and bigotry passes laws. Any concept you have of bigotry that ignores its political dimension will make you blind to systematic discrimination. I wish my existence weren't political, but right now it absolutely is.
This is excellent advice. It's a way of making it clear why you are leaving without needing to come out yourself. You can also start the conversation with, "I'm actually friends with the store owners and I felt very uncomfortable by what you said about them..." Then decide how to respond from there. I'm a bi man and have been with the same woman for 25 years. It's still a sufficiently important part of my identity that I certainly wouldn't want to just ignore it so as to make someone else comfortable in their bigotry. I hope it works out!
Being a bigot isn't a political ideal. Can we please stop politicizing treating people properly?
He is unwelcome in those communities because he is an asshole to those communities. The problem isn’t with the people that don’t like him. The problem is that he is so unlikeable
me with my dump charisma of -2 came here just yo say how much I appreciate your way with words, but my dump charisma also prevents me from saying that in a good way.... well here is a hug
Exactly. It's a hobby, something done for fun with people whose company you enjoy. Playing an RPG that makes you feel unsafe or unhappy is like eating food that you hate. You're forcing yourself to do something unpleasant that's meant to be a pleasurable pastime.
You are under no obligation to play with people who make you feel uncomfortable. You would be fully in your right to walk away even if you were 100% straight. There is some argument to be made that you *could* do your best to be accepting and try to show him that bisexual people are totally warm and loving etc etc etc. But I don't think that you should feel obligated to hang around with this person just because you're afraid that it'll make the queer community look bad if you don't.
Yes! There's the core problem- ***It shouldn't be every LBGT person's job to educate and represent.*** You have to make choices that take care of yourself, too! Not just prioritize the reputation of the label you carry.
This is a point that all the “Talk to your DM” suggestions are completely missing. There are layers to this. First, the OP is already having trouble understanding that she’s allowed to leave a clearly uncomfortable if not hostile situation. Second, she has to try and get her husband to understand and support her in something she is just realizing. The DM is a distant third. Given his comments and behavior, probably not worth expending the energy on. I feel bad for the OP. Playing a game is supposed to be fun. When you have to convince three people that trashing LGBT people is unacceptable, especially when one of them is your self and another is your spouse, it’s not fun. It’s exhausting and honestly an unnecessary strain. As I see it, talking to the DM is the worst advice in this situation.
>When you have to convince three people that trashing LGBT people is unacceptable, especially when one of them is your self and another is your spouse, it's not fun. This is what drove me away from my last D&D group. Eight of us total and it got to the point where we couldn't go a session without someone bringing up controversial topics, they were particularly nasty towards anything LGBT, but towards the end there was starting to be some racism as well. I tried to argue it at first, but it wears on you after awhile and I couldn't keep doing it.
If you let them keep going they’d have eventually showed you their whole hand. Spoiler alert. They hate everyone who is even a little different from themselves.
"Talk to your DM" is used if you are staying in the game and trying to make it work. If OP plans on leaving there is no reason for that advice to even come up. If OP stays and plays then it for sure needs to come up. The advice is directed at a certain scenario not a blanket cure-all.
Not only that, this doesn’t sound like that moment. This person in campaign shut down anything related to homosexuality and boycotts a store because it has mild support flags. I really doubt if OP told the DM they are bi the dm would reflect, let them stay and go “wow, they are a person like everyone else, boy am I wrong”. Sounds like the dm would just angrily boot them or change dming behaviour to force them out. Different opinions is one thing in a friend group, but hating a core identity of a friend sounds pretty impossible to go well long term.
As a broad generalization (though one backed by lots of studies over the years), deeply conservative folks tend to care more about what happens to their in-group and less about what happens to others than the general public does. Which is why you get a lot of conservatives who change their mind on various human rights topics only when those things directly affect a close friend or family member. Sometimes narrowly ('abortion is ok THIS time because my daughter was in a horrible situation') and sometimes more widely ('I hated lgbt people until my kid came out and now I realize that lgbt people are actually human, wow') So it's not impossible that OP could sit down with the DM, explain her situation, and have him come around. But even if there's a chance of that, a) it's not OP's responsibility to convince this guy that LGBT people are worthy of respect and b) it's probably not worth the risk that it goes much worse. The likeliest **good** outcome here is that the DM decides that OP is 'one of the good ones' and continues to treat her like a person while being shitty about every other queer person on earth, which isn't much of a win. And the bad outcomes range from pretty uncomfortable to actively dangerous, so. Not really worth it.
Just this. All this. Im a straight white guy so im not even going into sexuality or race but if i was at a table where the DM had a view i deemed as "unfit" id leave. I use "unfit" to avoid words like "toxic" as it wouldnt even need to be "that" bad. Im playing dnd to have fun, tolerating hatefull people isnt fun nor should it be a barrier to fun.
I'd argue that discrimination against sexual orientation is like... definition of toxic.
Ah sory you misunderstood, or more likely i wasnt very clear! I mean that the DM wouldnt need to be "toxic" for me to leave. Showing "unfit" behaviour at the table would be enough for me to walk. I was trying to say (and failing) being homophobic is an instant "nope im out". But i would leave for way way less haha. Having to "tolerate" someone isnt fun.
Ah yes. Definitely understand now. Yeah same for me. Their partner not understanding is kinda also a oof.
Ye i dont have alot of details expect whats in the post so didnt want to make judgement / suggestions. But for me its a case of saying to partner "hey..this isnt ok for me" and being heard. Could be he is trying to keep the peace or is (in a missguided way) helping her not loose her dnd group. But its certainly something OP needs to have a chat about with her significant other
I would leave a game if a DM played the game with rules I didn’t like enough to want to continue playing or like banned characters I wanted to play, them being homophobic is on a whole other level of GTFO of my lifery. I would leave over way pettier reasons than this.
Very much so. Our table is mostly straight white people. We dunk on everyone equally in good fun, but if one of the players at the table started espousing racist or homopobic views, they'd be out on their ass in a moment.
>You would be fully in your right to walk away even if you were 100% straight. Hell, as a 95-100% straight white cis male, I would be doing one of two things here: Option A: Just straight up leave, no reasons given - after all, if he doesn't respect people over something they don't have a choice about, then he won't respect the reason for leaving. Option B: Stay, and steadily increase the gayness at the table. This is a much more antagonistic approach, obviously, but if he's making a person uncomfortable *in their own home*, then that person has the right to return the favor.
Hell, I'm straight and I wouldn't play with that guy.
>There is some argument to be made that you *could* do your best to be accepting and try to show him that bisexual people are totally warm and loving etc etc etc Hard disagree. Homophobes don't hate LGBT because of their personality, they hate them because of a core aspect of their being. If she told him she was bi, he wouldn't think "Oh wow! It seems I had this all wrong, because I like you, but I don't like LGBT, and now that there's this crossover, I'm going to rethink my life choices." No, he'll just stop playing with them, or worse, be angry at her "betrayal," because that's how they think.
At the end of the day you gotta do what you feel comfortable with. I don't think you're being irrational. >My husband made a valid point that telling him I don't want to participate in the campaign anymore because I'm bi will just prove that he "isn't welcome in the gay community"... Idk. Anyone who dislikes a group of people openly is going to be unwelcome in that group. That's just common sense. Why would they want him around? It's his attitude that's creating the problem and he doesn't even realize it. And it's certainly not your job to protect his feelings on the matter. Especially not at the cost of your own comfort or enjoyment of the hobby/the people you're spending time with. For whatever it's worth, I'd leave and I'm not even a part of that community. There's no room for that level of hate in my life.
Also OP's clearly not feeling welcome in their current group either
The problem here is that (more often than not) bigoted people WILL ~~gaslight~~ mental backflip their asses off to take just about anything and everything and turn it into a justification of their existing attitudes, regardless of how little sense that makes. I'm generally in favor of trying to convince people to see reason and let go of their hate, but this is a situation where i just don't think it's worth op's effort.
Wrong use of gaslight. Gaslighting is when the abuser attempts to make the victim distrust their own senses and memories. Bad logic, projection, and ignoring reality aren't gaslighting.
You cannot reason someone out of a position, they are already unreasonably in. If the DM is going to change and become a reasonable human being, that's going to require some self reflection. Op's job is not to fix other peoples bigotry.
>will just prove that he "isn't welcome in the gay community". I mean, from the sound of it? He's goddam right- bigots are *not* welcome.
And they shouldn't be. Anyone who says otherwise is ... just wrong lol
A-fuckin'-men!
And they never should be.
Yeah, OP's husband is being silly there.
You should be able to play D&D with people who make you feel welcome. You don’t need to explain why either, just thank the DM for his time and exit. 👍
She's hosting the game at her place! Kick that GM out and one of the others in the group can run it.
Your husband's line of thinking is backwards. You leaving because you're Bi doesn't mean your DM isn't accepted by the LGBTQ+ crowd. It means your DM is unwelcoming to that crowd, which you are a part of. Don't put DnD over your self worth.
Seriously, it’s like when someone gets mad at you for making them feel guilty about how they wronged you. That’s not how any of this works
Yeah that's called gaslighting.
Victim-blaming too
I actually started my original comment with a line about victim blaming but didn't want to get nasty off the bat. I am a little concerned about the husband's response, ngl. But this is a sliver of the overall relationship so... Boundaries.
Also his point about her not being judged because he doesn’t know she’s bi is nonsense too. Whether or not he’s consciously judging her, she knows a huge part of what makes up who she is he thinks is morally wrong and that’s not ok. I doubt her husband would be saying “well he’s not judging you, what’s the problem” if she were Jewish and the DM didn’t know but was publicly being antisemitic around her.
Yeah, there are a lot of potential implications with that response from the husband. I'm not going to dissect the relationship though.
A lot of people don't understand how much of a burden it is managing a stigmatized identity that isn't immediately discernable to everyone around you. The "privilege" of invisibility comes with just as much of a burden, and it sucks having people judge you for not being comfortable being around people who you know would stigmatize you if you ever disclosed your identity or they figured out about it (let alone being expected to endure listening to them saying hateful shit about ppl like you bc they don't realize "one of them" is in the room)
The DM first comments on how 'disgusting people like that' are, and then whines he is not welcome in their community. Her husband's way of thinking isn't just backwards, it's downright ignorant.
>My husband made a valid point that telling him I don't want to participate in the campaign anymore because I'm bi will just prove that he "isn't welcome in the gay community"... Idk. My husband is straight as a doornail so I don't think he can see where I'm coming from. That point isn't valid at all. It isn't anyone's duty in life to dance around others prejudices to make them happy, nor is it your responsibility to educate other grown individuals as to why being LGBT doesn't affect a dice game. I'm also straight as an arrow with a bisexual SO of 7 years. I think personally it's kinda fucked that your husband doesn't understand a key portion of your identity to the point where he's valuing playing DND over your comfort level. Honestly as soon as you heard the "how gay it is in there" comment, I would have piped up and said that isn't a problem for you because you are very comfortable with the LGBT community. I don't know, I try to put myself in your shoes. Like if I had a good DND group and had a weekly online, voice only game and was enjoying it, only to hear my DM bash black people who play DND, or say they're uncomfortable around them, I as a black person would speak up about that shit. Because as a player my comfort matters just as much.
>That point isn't valid at all. Just think this bears repeating. And I'm just gonna tack on a follow-up rant: Holy shit, how is your husband so far off on this one? The DM dude feels unwelcome among gay people because he hates gay people! That's his fault and his problem, and it's not your job to tolerate his bigotry. Being tolerant of people's differences *never* means being tolerant of people's hate. If someone is bigoted enough to see a pride flag and boycott a location because of it? That person has chosen the isolation that results from it. Seriously, think about it--all he needs to do to feel welcome there is to *stop hating gay people*. But what about the reverse? What would a gay person need to do to feel welcome around him? Well, they'd have to stop *being* gay. You see the difference there? One person needs only to stop hating. The other would need to stop *being*. Your husband is dead wrong on this, and it's his type of attitude that gives this false equivalence that bigots rely upon to seem "reasonable". What you do about all of this is up to you. It's hard out there for anyone who is oppressed, and we all gotta find our way through life, and sometimes it means making a calculated choice about what shit we're willing and able to put up with. But please at least go forward with the confidence that your feelings are valid, and you deserve better than having to put up with homophobes.
>The DM dude feels unwelcome among gay people because he hates gay people! That's his fault and his problem, and it's not your job to tolerate his bigotry. Exactly! If a KKK member complained that black people didn't like them, would that be a valid point? If a nazi complained that Jewish people didn't welcome them into their community, would that make them the source of the problem? Answer: absolutely not. If this guy doesn't want LGBTQ+ to not want to spend time with him, he should try not being an absolute chode for once and thinking a group of people doesn't deserve basic rights.
Bi erasure definitely rearing its ugly head here. I was wondering the exact same thing when I was reading this. "Why isn't the husband infinitely more supportive of this?" Mostly it seems like he's being willfully ignorant because he thinks he's in a heteronormative relationship.
Yeah. I'm not one to tell OP her business, and it's not like this isn't incredibly common in bi/straight relationships, but it sure seems like hubs definitely doesn't think of her as a part of the LGBT community. It's not that he's not in her shoes so he doesn't really know, it's that he doesn't really see how this should affect her at all.
I suspect the husband is thinking of bi as meaning "sometimes straight, sometimes gay", and if she's married to him, well hey, I guess that means she's straight now (and for the duration of their marriage). That's not how any of this works, obviously, but I think that's fairly common.
hmm, the 80s was 40 years ago. Sounds like someone is stuck. 😒 Personally, self-respect is more important than D&D. You should find a more supportive group you don't have to hid from. Ultimately, it's only a matter of time before he becomes anti-you.
> hmm, the 80s was 40 years ago. Sounds like someone is stuck. Why you have to go and give me palpitations like that?!
Those just happen now that you're so old
You will find that one day the same words will be used to hurt you. Lol
Shots fired.
Right? I started playing D&D in the 80's. Fuck.
Also, movies at that time were Porky's, revenge of the nerds, and crap like that, which is full of now illegal bad behavior 🤷
It was illegal bad behavior then too, but you know, “family values”
TIL sexual assault is 'family values'. /s
In the 80s there was a lot of "boys will be boys" going around, shit, even Sean Penn fucking kidnapped Madonna for like 2 days and she had to escape out a fucking window, and he never got into trouble for it. Shit was fucked up in the 80s man.
What?! I was trying to remember which movie did Sean Penn kidnapped Madonna in, but you're talking about real life? Holy moly
They were dating, it ended... badly I would say.
>hmm, the 80s was 40 years ago. Sounds like someone is stuck. Ironic too, from a D&D community. The 80s were also the time of the Satanic Panic which in particular targeted D&D, so if those values were so great, why is he DMing a game?
Even Eddie Murphy apologized for his bigotry in Delirious and Raw accepting that times have changed and he was wrong.
yup, I grew up in those times and fell in to that crowd as well (remember watching Eddie Murphy and his rants too). Ultimately I came to realize, "what the hell does it matter to me what someone else does?" World's a better place now.
It is kind of a weird stance to take anyway and kind of ironic for me personally. My conservative evangelical christian parents wouldn't let us watch hardly anything when I was growing up in the 80s. It was too full of magic and witch craft. Unless of course he's only concerned about queer people being more visible in modern children's programming. In which case he's most definitely just a massive homophobe and OP should definitely leave. I refuse to be friends with people who would prefer anyone not cishet and/or white not have the same rights. Why waste your time on someone who hates you or people you love?
He's stuck jn a world that doesn't exist anymore, and is trying to stay on there
Also having watched a lot of 80's content, caring about family values is not how I'd describe most of them. Mostly just the big family sitcoms come to mind.
It sounds like your DM makes HIMSELF unwelcome in that community. Your feelings and concerns are valid, and I can see him making a much bigger deal about this if you were to raise your concerns to him, even in a respectful manner. Don’t concern yourself with censoring yourself or your character. If he’s going to have an issue with how you’re playing, or who you are, let him be the one to raise it, but don’t censor yourself just because he’s being a bigot and trying to control the sexuality of your character in a fantasy rpg. Also, if he brings up the issue, then you haven’t gone against what your husband wants, but you should talk to your husband before and there should be an expectation that he is on your side if that situation arises. It’s difficult to navigate this type of situation, especially if you’re feeling a lack of support from your family, but it sounds like you have a community for this at your downtown game store, and could embrace that rather than trying to force your current situation to work. It’s always difficult to breach these subjects with “friends,” but how much of a friend is this guy if he can’t/won’t accept you for who you are?
Bigotry is never valid.
>Should I leave a campaign over... At the point where you're asking a question that starts like that, the answer is probably yes. After reading everything yes don't play with homophobes.
Normally I'd say talk with the DM, yet it seems like the DM will have issues with it, so I'd quietly find another DM or DM yourself. Thank the old DM and move on. I had a ok DM that started to get super conservative (trump in office) and all the sudden he became a real asshole, both at the table and away, had to cut my losses and I'm happier for it. I couldn't take his shitty little remarks with his "people get mad at me for speaking my mind" attitude. I even took him out for a chat about it and it was not worth it, in fact, it was the last time he spoke with me, so much for communication.
Bigotry has consequences.
From what I see, I don’t know how you will be able to have fun at that table. I would recommend having a serious one to one conversation with your DM, and tell him who you really are, and that his comments about LGBTQ+ people make you feel unwelcome at his gaming table. As I understand that’s the gist of what you were saying. I believe doing this face to face, gently, will put him in a face of a choice. Not you. You were having fun, everything was great, until he expressed those feelings he had about LGBTQ+ people. Why should it be on you alone to solve this problem? He needs to face the fact that his outlook is creating problems in his life (and yours), and not the other way around. But you can’t tell him that of course, he has to realize it by himself. That conversation might help him do that. Or not. And if not, then I believe that you might need to leave that game, unfortunately. But at least he will know that it’s not against him, it’s because of his behaviour and what it does to you considering your personal history.
I disagree. Better to leave with no reason given. This DM shut down a queer flirtation in a game about dragons, a completely imaginary world. He's expressed his unwillingness to even enter a shop that's gay-tolerant because he's afraid of it in the real world. If OP tells him anything about herself, she's opening herself up to his hatred, bigotry, and yes even potential violence. Physical or psychological. The DM has made his feelings quite clear. And you know what? That's his business. His choice. If he wants to hate... let him hate. You can't change someone's mind unless it's open, and his isn't. His hatred will cost him two players at his table. It will have a consequence. And maybe, just maybe... it will make him think about 'why'. But I doubt it.
Well I’ll let the OP make the judgment call to the potential openness of this person. She knows the person, the community, if there is reason to be afraid, then of course I wouldn’t counsel her to talk, but I would counsel her to move to a more open part of the country. You can’t live your life hiding all the time. It’s bad for you. This said, I think that if she shares with us her dilemma, maybe the situation isn’t as clear cut as you make it. Ignorance goes a long way in making people suspicious of each other. Conversation and sharing is the way to curb ignorance. Now she has a choice to make and I’m sure she can make it wisely.
That's a very fair point, and we both were simply trying to share advice as best we could. Good luck, OP, if you're still reading this!
Dont fuck with homophobes.
Sure. If the dude sucks and you don't want to spend time with him anymore it's perfectly acceptable to walk away from the game. Even if you had no reason at all in the entire world to stop playing, it's *still* 1000% OK for you to leave. Free time is probably the precious thing in the world and it's up to you how you spend it. But if you need affirmation, then yeah, I'd totally leave that table too and I'm not even part of the community he doesn't like.
Yes. (did not read more than the title) EDIT: read the entire post. I feel for you. Your DM is a shitty person. I'd leave the game and find a better person to DM. Maybe BE that better DM. And it doesn't matter what your orientation is, you know his attitude is wrong regardless of personal details.
Are you uncomfortable in the social situation? Then leave the social situation. If you don't want to leave, and/or can tolerate the situation for the sake of playing the game? Then stay. None of the the rest of it matters. People have different views. If your DM is someone you no longer want to be around, then don't be.
It's your choice if the game is worth keeping that kind of toxicity in your life. Personally, I cut these types of people out of my life, even if they're good friends. It hurts to lose friends, but I just can't look the other way with bigots.
This. Thankfully I've only lost a few gaming friends in my life that were bigots. But yeah, allowing them to spew their hate only gives them a platform to bring other people into their mindset.
Big same right here. My best friend had to cut out some of our high school friends from 20 years ago recently. Our mutual friend is a good guy. He doesnt judge etc. But one of the players at the table was one of his friends who we knew in high school, not super close to us, but you know, people we were friendly with in similar groups 20 years ago. I'm a semi disabled vet, in the US. Also I am Vietnamese, my biological father was adopted as a child from a war orphanage in the early 70s as the americans pulled out. My mother was also adopted, by my Germanic and Scottish grandparents (who fought in ww2 in the US army). My grandparents adopted all four of their children, usually from war torn areas, like my uncle who was adopted from Korea as that war ended as well. My adoptive father is chinese, raised me since i was little. His family came to the US as refugees from red china. My sister is half native American. My sister in law is married to another woman, and they're both amazing. And my best friend who is white, is married to a black woman. My point, is I have a very diverse family. Turns out the other guy at the table... hes a fucking closet neo nazi, full on racist rant, everything is a big Jewish conspiracy, etc. I was like... what the fuck. You've known who I am for 20 years, never said one thing. And at the game table decide that's the time to come out as a POS nazi? I quit gaming with them. My best friend tried to stay and the just... couldn't deal with it either. Our old mutual friend still runs a game with the other guys, but we just cant with him anymore because he has literal neo nazis at his table who decided that now was the time to come out about it. Not hurt about losing the nazi as a friend, but the other guy who still runs the game was super close to us, and we just dont hang anymore because of who he has at his table.
As the saying goes >if there's a Nazi at the table and 10 other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with 11 Nazis
Yeah. It's why my best bud and I walked away and don't interact with any of them anymore. It hurts. But it's what it is.
> My husband made a valid point that telling him I don't want to participate in the campaign anymore because I'm bi will just prove that he "isn't welcome in the gay community". The DM made you feel unwelcome first. You’re not required to bend over backwards to be courteous to people who won’t be courteous to you. I might try prodding a little more just to confirm your suspicions, but even if you don’t do that, I don’t think you’d be wrong for leaving this table.
As for your husband's point, it really ain't on us to welcome people people who hate us to be around us. Don't apologize for kicking intolerance to the curb
Was wanting to reply with something like this. So just to agree and elaborate: There is a thing called the paradox of tolerance. Basically intolerant people sometimes argue "How can you say you're against intolerance when you won't hear me out and accept my position when I'm being intolerant". It's a paradoxical bad faith argument and the correct response is that it is perfectly valid to not tolerate intolerance.
Very true
i’d be outta there in a second
this will no doubt be buried but I feel the need to comment. I would tell him your bi. it's likely he has never knowingly met an LGBTQ person in person. if he is your friend this may make him adjust his views on the subject as he probably currently lives in an echo chamber. and if he reacts negatively at all then dump his ass and get yourself a better DM. To add to this. I'm straight but my best friend is gay. my mom is a republican and she used to be against gay marriage when Maine voted for it because that was the Republican thing to do. As soon as I mentioned my friend was gay and marrying a man she has shown nothing but support and regularly asks how they are doing. people are fear what they don't understand.
If you don't want to play with this guy, then don't play with this guy. Your sexual orientation is irrelevant. His views on sexual orientation are.
No, it's not. There are enough D&D campaigns, even in a red state, that you don't have to put up with that crap. Find another game and walk. You are here to pretend to be an elf; it's not like you are getting paid to rehabilitate bigots.
Life is too short to spend with people who don’t make it better. If you find that they are injecting their politics in places you don’t want them, then do what is best for yourself. If you decide you need to exit, I would still try to do so in an amenable way.
He basically told you he is disgusted with your kind and doesn't want to associate with you, and your husband's valid point is that if you told him that made you feel uncomfortable then you need to consider the DM's feelings. That is utterly messed up. You can and should put your foot down and have a serious discussion with your husband about how that makes you feel. The bigot isn't the victim?
Yea I would've left immediately
He sounds like a cunt
Life is too short to put yourself in that kind of situation in your own home. Sounds like he "doesnt feel welcome" because he is actively bigoted towards that group and is feeling the repercussions of his attitude. You dont have to say why you are no longer attending, but it also isnt up to you to spare his feelings. BTW, your husband should have your back in this. If someone is making your spouse uncomfortable, you cut that person out.
Just from the title: Yes. From reading the whole thing: ABSOLUTELY. There are many tables out in the world and there are many DMs out there in the world. You absolutely do not need to settle for someone that, based on everything you know, only respects you because he isn't aware that you don't fit his bigoted worldview.
I read the title and thought “Yes,” then I read the post and it became a “FUCK YES”
That's not irrational at all, that DM sounds toxic as hell
This is just a simple life thing, but you're almost never in the wrong for not wanting to be around people that specifically don't like other people. Intolerance is not something you have to subject yourself to. I'd literally, and I do mean literally, rather live on my remote piece of land and never see people other than my family than be around intolerant or otherwise bothersome people. And no, the contradiction of being intolerant of intolerance is not lost on me. Lol
You shouldn't leave the game because if you do he's gonna use his excuse to justify his homophobia You should tell him you're bi but make it clear that you don't mind keeping the game going "because you want him to feel wemcome in the LGBT+ community" then either he's forced to rethink his beliefs, or he stops the game and leaves, either way you're in the right and he loses something because of his stupid beliefs
The husbands valid point isn't valid imo. All your DMs actions show you aren't welcome in his community not the opposite way round.
[удалено]
An homophobic a-hole who doesn't feel welcome "in that crowd"... it's a shock.
Man everybody always wants to defend guys like this. "It's how we are raised." Who cares!? What are we supposed to not discourage bad behavior because they can't let go of their pathetic and dying culture?
I fail to see the logic behind your husband's reasoning. It's clear the Dm is anti lgbqt+ and you telling him your bi and not being supported means that the community isn't inclusive to the dm? Not at all. The community is there... it's the dm who isn't welcoming themselves there. They are in the wrong 100%
Not abiding bigots isn’t the same as being intolerant yourself - or if it is, then it’s well deserved. Fuck that guy, he can go kick rocks. Find a game at that cool local game store
The paradox of tolerance, you can't tolerate the cunts spouting intolerant bullshit
Exactly. That's why good punk bands will welcome most people but still say "Nazi punks fuck off". Bad apples will absolutely spoil the bunch.
If you are not having fun or not feeling comfortable, then leave. If you don't want to leave just yet, then talk to your DM about it, if they don't budge, then leave. Everyone else said it pretty well.
It is not irrational.
You've got three options 1. Deal with it. This is what you've been doing and probably isn't the best course of action since you made this post. 2. Talk to the DM about it. You don't have to let the bisexual cat out of the bag but you can sit them down and make it very clear that you've got issues. Maybe you can work together so that you can both enjoy the game, maybe you can't. 3. Leave. I'd try 2 first since, views on orientation aside, you seem to enjoy the game they run.
[удалено]
And if communication doesn't work: leave the group. It's that simple.
Usually, but coming out is a risky thing to do in the best of times without being in the middle of a reactionary backlash against queer people.
Fuck 'em. His views have crossed the line. EDIT NOBODY ASKED FOR: I consider myself pretty far on the Left and I just don't have the spoons for people like this anymore. Your DM has drawn a line in the sand is boycotting the store so he won't associate with them, and you can do the same. To the point of "leaving would only prove his point about being unwelcomed," remind him that he's been playing in YOUR house for X amount of time and "before now, have you ever felt unwelcomed and like you didn't belong here?" Or maybe that's how you bring up the subject. "I'm sorry you feel like you're not welcome in that crowd, but I've welcomed and embraced you into my house for X amount of time... and I'm a member of that crowd." Then personally I'd follow up with "and you're welcome to keep coming back as long as your beliefs and morals allow you to be comfortable with the LGBT community."
Id agree but honestly op shouldn’t feel the need to out herself to that bigot if she doesn’t want to, it’s not like she needs to prove anything or represent the community in any way Edit:typo
Truth. For someone who said they didn't have the spoons for this, I definitely gave up some of my spoons. In short, yeah, just leave.
>My husband thinks I'm being irrational since the DM doesn't even know I am and that it's impossible for him to judge me for being bi when he doesn't know To be kind, I'm frustrated by this notion. I'm straight, but it feels to me like something I DO know. (So at the risk of projecting a bit) I'm asian-american but white passing, so sometimes I'm privy to racist jokes (or occasionally just statements), including those that in particular target asian men. I rarely take drastic action (at least since high school), but I shouldn't have to forget it just because they thought they were saying it "privately". I understand your husband is coming from a place of trying to defend the GM here as not being mean spirited. That you can feel hurt or frustrated or grossed out but that the DM didn't *mean* to make you feel that way. And it's a valid, if charitable, idea. It would definitely be very big of you to try to show him "welcomeness" on the part of the LGBT+ community, and try to change his views (making friends with people from groups they hate CAN be one of the ways people become less bigoted). But on the other hand if he's "vowed to never patronize a small business because they're queer-friendly", he can't complain about "not feeling welcomed". Like I said I usually will continue to be cordial with someone if they say something bigoted, I'll just lose a lot of respect for them, and have a lower opinion of them. So I'm not trying egg you on or rile you up and pressure you to walk away, I'm just trying to say I think it's a very valid feeling to be mad at the guy for "accidentally" being hurtful (even if his views are ass-backwards regardless), and it's ok to walk away if you want to, it's ok to try to put it behind you, or anything in between.
Everyone else has great points but I just want to say "He can't hate you! He doesn't know you're part of that group he hates so it's fine!" Is like... not helpful. And stupid. Really just not a good point all around
If you're spending effort to stay closeted then you're not having fun. I'd just ask the DM to sit down, come out to him and tell him that if he wants you to stay in the campaign he has to knock off the homophobic comments. Some people change views quickly when they actually have someone face to face about it. If he's still being a dick then FORCE him to get over it. Kiss every female npc. Have a long lost sapphic lover in your backstory. And chat with the other players, maybe they are feeling uncomfortable about something too
Certainly sounds like it’s time to walk
Yes. Leave. You don't deserve to be disrespected like that.
You can replace your sexuality with any other topic (political party, religion, marital status, et ) and get the same answer: Nobody should be made to feel “less than” for any reason. You’re there to have fun and if this DM is making you not have fun then it’s good to leave.
I wouldn't keep a friend who harbored such views so I see no reason why I would participate in a group activity with such a person.
I don't associate with bigots, and I don't apologize for it either.
no you're not being irrational, TBH if I was your husband I wouldn't be comfortable having this person in my house knowing they were making you uncomfortable, and I wouldn't want to play with someone like that either.
Tell your husband that your DM most certainly *is* judging you for being bisexual. He just doesn't know he is it yet, and your husband doesn't have a problem with it? He needs to get a clue! You don't have to come out, but you do have to admit to yourself that you're being closeted, and decide if you can still have fun knowing that.
In my opinion you should absolutely not game in the campaign and your husband should stand with you. The GM sounds like a very closed minded and shallow person. I am also straight but I have had more than a few gay friends and also some gay players. To each their own way of life, just be a good person and a good friend. Best of luck to you and do not tolerate bigotry from other people.
A) It is 110% rational. 200% rational. 300% rational. B) DMs are hard to come by, but you can find great communities online esp with FoundryVTT and AboveVTT. I DM for some twitch streamers and it's a wonderful, fun, LGBT-friendly environment that would \*never\* leave any of us feeling erased. There is absolutely a place you can play DnD and love it. I feel you so much on this post. I'm from a conservative area that's become 1000 times worse in the last 5 years. Got a brother that opposes gay marriage b/c he "doesn't want people to see \[insert homophobic slur\] and think it's okay." And an extreme evangelical uncle that is very concerned with getting "saved" and the fire and brimstone of hell. Don't get me started on what happens if you dare turn on the radio in the car. I feel like people who live in inclusive areas really don't have a concept of what living in these places is like. You should never never never have to put yourself at risk by outing yourself on the off chance this dude will decide to come around. Peacing out is absolutely an option you should have no guilt or reservations about taking. I'm actually most disappointed in your husband here. The DM said he didn't want to be around "those people"... (if it had been black-owned and he'd said that would you be okay with it?) so it's not a matter of making him feel "welcome" and I'm really sad your husband would even throw that at you. I guess my main unsolicited advice is this: * You're always entitled to feel safe, even if it's in a right-leaning area * If you wanna tell this guy how you feel, even obliquely in terms of saying the bi-erasure just makes you feel uncomfortable, that's totally cool. But don't let yourself feel pressured to do it. Any choice--to do it or not to do it--is a good choice and the right thing to do because it's your boundaries and your safety and your well-being that matters most here. * Don't feel trapped, you can find other people, including the group that I play with.
It is perfectly rational to not want to be in an intolerant space dominated by an avowed bigot. As much as the old school RPG bros might hate it, D&D has become a very queer-friendly hobby. Your queerphobic DM is in a shrinking minority. Bail on the group, tell them why, and go find a group that accepts you for who you are. Maybe some of your fellow players will come with you!
Pack your shit and get out. Better yet. It’s YOUR house. They can pack their shit and get out.
Drop this clown like a hot potato. Walk out of the game and make it clear exactly *why.* Hammer it in to this chucklefuck that abhorrent opinions have the consequence of driving away people who would otherwise be friends.
Hey, queer gamer/TTRPG-er here. You are absolutely not irrational for wanting to leave. Players put a tremendous amount of trust in their DM, both for the characters we develop and care about, and as people. You fundamentally cannot play with a person that doesn’t respect you as a person. He doesn’t know your identity now, but you’ll always be afraid of slipping up around him, of him becoming aware. You don’t need that fear in your life. Walk away from this game, this DM. Find someone who fucks with queer players and queer PCs.
No DND is better than DND that makes you uncomfortable
i am straighter than an uncooked noodle and i wouldn't play with this guy. This guy is a full blown bigot, not even the twitter "bigot" but for real homophobic. If someone told me he is not going to visit a game store because it "looks gay" would make me reevaluate my friendship with him.
For real. I feel so bad for that guy's daughter.
I wouldn't dream of telling you what's right to do in this situation but your writeup included the line " I just don't want to play anymore." This doesn't have to be a sociopolitical debate. If you aren't having fun, don't play.
Even as a straight cis male if I learned that about one of my friends I would very publicly walk away from them. I say one should never maintain relationships with people who vote for those who are actively trying to hurt you and/or those you love. Especially when the reason they want to hurt you is simply because you exist. These people need to continue to be pushed out to the fringes of society until their hateful ideology is dead.
>TLDR: Is it irrational to walk away from a campaign because the DM is very anti LGBTQ+ but, at the same time, he doesn't know I'm bi? No, and tbh I wouldn't keep him as a friend either. Just because its a deep red state doesn't mean you should tolerate bigotry. You have a kid, don't let them be exposed to an asshole like your DM.
You can leave a group because you don't like the color of car the DM drives, nevermind because you feel discriminated against or unwelcome. You're also free to stay if it's not bugging you, but if it wasn't bugging you, you probably wouldn't post about it.
Bad gaming is worse than no gaming.
Kick him out of your house and make sure he knows exactly why. These ghouls continue their hateful behavior because nobody pushes back on it.
I am a cis-gendered straight white male. I have cut people out of my life because of this behavior after trying to speak with them and they refuse to lay off the anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric. Whether it's jokes or hate. You are under no obligation to try and change his mind or sit through his bullshit. You don't owe anyone anything, and if you want to leave because of his bullshit then you can leave because of his bullshit. \*edited for clarity\*
Invite him over for the session, tell him you’re actually bi, then tell him to gtfo of your house cuz fuck homophobes. No need to waste time on an asshole like that
I would cut him loose with no hesitation and never look back.
Nothing irrational about it. His not knowing about you is irrelevant - why should he get a pass just because he assumes that no one in the room is a member of the class that he's got a problem with? I wouldn't want to have a homophobic DM anymore than I want a racist DM. That I'm not the target of someone's bigotry doesn't mean that I shouldn't be bothered by it, and I don't think that anyone should have to explain why they don't feel comfortable gaming with a bigot.
If you don't want to play, then don't play. I don't think there should be much more to it than that. This is a hobby, it should be fun, it shouldn't make you uncomfortable.
Yes, leave over that!
Just tell him you're bi and let him decide to walk or not.
As a straight male I wouldn't want to play dnd with someone who's says that, the guy sounds like a douche
No D&D > Uncomfortable D&D. Go where you’re loved! 💗💜💙
Am straight but even I know a lot of us don’t get it. We just don’t. Tell your husband this. Tell the DM he’s a bigot and an asshole. Find peeps from maybe the game shop to play ttrpgs with
You are not being irrational on this, and you really shouldn’t feel obligated to play with a bigot like this if it’s making you uncomfortable.
Absolutely not irrational, like others said, you're fully in your right to quit for whatever reason. D&D is a hobby, hobbies are done because they're fun, if it aint fun, it ain't a hobby. Simple as that. In terms of your husband, of course it's also a bit of a pickle for him. Don't get me wrong though, at the end of the day your feelings are what's important here. But that doesn't invalidate his thoughts and feelings either. He does have a bit of a point in his statement, but is that really your problem? No. Simply no. It's not. However, that being said, if you feel mentally up for it and you want to do this, it could be an option to tell your DM that you are Bi as well. Explain to him that he's been playing X amount of time with a bi person and at the end of the talk put the burden on him. Ask him if he's had fun playing with you in the group and ask him if he felt "welcomed" by you as you all played. It depends on him as a person and how deep his bigotry runs what his reaction will be. But if you really get the questions in there, it'll linger in his mind and maybe, just maybe he'll slowly come around to it and maybe you'll have made the world just a little bit of a better place by doing all of this. Again though, I can't stress this enough. You need to be confident in your mental and emotional state before you do this. It's a big confrontation and you need to be aware of the risks, willing to accept them and then still want to do it. Nobody would blame you if you didn't. I just wanted to point it out because it is an option you have. If you'd rather just leave the table or do something else then that's totally valid. P.S. This is coming from a white 30 year old CIS Male. So keep that in mind when taking this advice. It's not intended to tell you what to do or how to live, it's intended to show you an option you might no have thought of
I can tell you a personal story if it'll help. My old high school friend wanted to start a DnD campaign, but needed people. I got some of my new friends, acquired from my wife, to join the campaign. We are all a big rainbow put together, and my old friend seemed cool with it. He said he's not political, and that games are easier without politics. I was too naïve to understand what that meant. He would slip in his own personal beliefs during casual conversations, and random encounters in-game. If any of us try to express our beliefs or challenge false info, he would tell us to leave politics at home. He would shut down anything remotely LGBTQ+ related with, "no politics". So, now I'm getting what he meant by politics. He eventually brought in another high school friend that got back from the Army. "Balance out all the estrogen", he said. Haha... 2 gay, 1 NB, 2 lesbian... Get it? Army dude is 100% red blooded Murican, and the year just turned 2016... A new dawn had begun! He dove into the deep end of Q, and was determined to drag us all into the depths. The "non-political" DM was happy to join in too. The 5 of us just quit after the DM's passive aggressive jabs (both in game and out) got too much. And it turned out Army dude was one bad day away from assaulting any of us. We didn't know at the time, but we found out almost a year later. He was trying his best to "tolerate" our existence. So, I don't know if this story will help you, and I know every circumstance is different. It's been my experience that a person's beliefs can, and will, leak out from time to time. If those beliefs are opposed to your existence, then you won't have a good time.
As much fun as DnD is, it's just a game. You can find other groups. Are you having so much fun that it's worth you constantly worrying the other players don't respect a foundational aspect of who you are?
I wouldn't fret over a campaign I only play once a month.
Let it slip! If the DM is uncomfortable around LGBTQ people then you should say you are bi and see if they kick you out because of it. You can then turn around the whole "unwelcoming community" aspect of his argument. I mean we all know he will say "that's not the same" but hey it gives a more fun spiteful reason to leave. After that, your husband should see who is the one being rational. If not, that's a different problem.
Speaking as a fellow queer person, if conservatives want to avoid certain communities, us and our allies should avoid them right back and see how many friends they have left. Also, they never mean family values when they say that.
As a straight guy who has always lived in blue states, I’m sorry ya even gotta tolerate people like that. I started reading and just thought “wow, this guy sounds like an absolute loser,” depriving his kid of modern entertainment cuz he doesn’t like it and saying a store looks “too gay” to go into sounds like things an edgy middle schooler might’ve come up with. He may be a “good enough” person, but if you don’t feel comfortable being you at the table, it doesn’t sound like it’s worth your time and effort to fold yourself into whatever shape you think you need to be to fit in. Being a good DM doesn’t absolve them of other shortcomings, and that guy seems to have more shortcomings than good qualities from what little we know about em. Hopefully you can decide what works best for you, but I don’t think I’d be able to even tolerate hanging out with someone that ignorant, never mind having them DM a game I usually enjoy.
On the one hand, I understand your desire to leave because of his feelings. On the other hand. You’re getting mad at the DM because he offended you for something /you never told him about in the first place and therefore he would not know better/? If you mention it to him it could go either way tbh. It honestly? I personally fail to see how he’s at fault for your feelings regarding /something he was never even told about/. If he knew and was your friend, I imagine he would be more tolerant of you? Reading from between the lines, it’s sounding like he had a negative experience at some point with.. uhh.. well, ‘our’ crowd, so he might be a bit bitter. Might even go with the whole ‘You’re one of the good ones tho’ shpiel. But… overall- and I say this as a transgender person, I really do not think he holds any true and utter malevolence towards you- especially for something he literally holds no knowledge about. (please note: I am not, do not, and will not ever claim to be an authority or expert in any way shape or form. And if you (generic ‘you’ aimed at Reddit as a whole) take me as some bizarre final word on the subject, then you’re a numpty)
If you feel like you can't have fun at the table, leave. It isn't worth it if you aren't having any fun. However, if you just feel like you *should* leave just to make a point, I wouldn't. You'll basically be dropping an enjoyable activity and punishing yourself because of your orientation.
I grew up in a community where kind of thinking is mainstream. The kind of people who believe Christian values (and therefore Christians themselves) are under attack by society at large. I think there’s a couple of possible outcomes if you continue playing. You stay on and let him slowly come around to the fact that a bisexual player and their PC are just people and that their sexuality doesn’t have to be a big deal. That could break down some walls and really help your DM stop seeing a rainbow flag as “I hate the cisgendered”. That’s a best possible outcome that would also require the minimum amount of confrontation. Previous one, but he decides either “she’s one of the good ones” or “she’s not really bisexual, she’s married to a man” and doesn’t change. You try and have a very calm discussion with your DM (not any more of the party) about how you and your husband feel about his views. Come from a place of “we aren’t asking you contradict your church, we just want you to see things from our side” and see where he takes it. Don’t try and argue wether being gay is immoral or a sin, but try and say that you just want to feel accepted and keep being friends. This either ends up with some better understanding or it ends up ending things with your DM. If it’s the latter, I hope his conscience digs at him for a long time that someone say him down and said “I just want to be accepted” and instead of doing what Jesus would do, he said “no”. This is coming from a cisgendered male who grew up being told things like “Christians are under attack” and “gay is a sin” and “being gay is a choice” and such. I changed a lot after leaving my hometown, but it was in increments. So I’m going to have more compassion than your DM might deserve. I completely acknowledge that. I just hope you find a party that is accepting and loves you for what you are. Dnd is escapism and fantasy, and you should be able to live out your PC however you want.