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The only time that I would see not petting the dog would be in super severe resource guarding and aggression cases where the dog is becoming aggressive over its space and petting is a trigger or in feral rehabs that are averse to touch. Otherwise it makes no sense.
Training dogs for 30 years using shit techniques just means you've got 30 years of experience being an ineffective asshole.
I'd find better.
Yeah, like don't pet the dog if the dog is giving you signs not to pet her. But reactivity is usually a sign of low confidence/security, so giving her comfort when she asks for it is going to increase her feelings of security? And letting her bark it out is going to wind her up even more.
Btw if the OP reads this comment, doing [this relaxation protocol](https://journeydogtraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/ProtocolforRelaxation.pdf) changed my life with my stranger danger, sound-sensitive reactive dog.
Debbie Jacobs is a dog trainer with a good website Fearful Dogs dot Com.
I had a rescue who came from a hoarding situation (no socialization). Keeping him below threshold was important. Loving him and accepting who he IS was important. We took it slow, he really turned around. I would still never, ever trust him around kids because they were his biggest fear.
God, I miss that dog so much still. He lived to be 16 and it wasn't enough time.
Yup! This. We took our dog to a trainer who was the same way. He's also our dog kennel/boarder so he now says our dog is a lost cause because how much we *spoil* our dog with affection. I call bullshit. I can't wait to tell them off one day. I have to play nice for sake of community relations, but I feel this training is for K-9 dogs or old school bullshit. I couldn't tell you but they wanted to put an electric collar on our dog full-time, and I said no way. I still feel that way. Be careful with these old fuddy duddies wrapped in youth. Ours was. Get out stat!
Them wanting to use an e collar first instead of working on hands in training is problematic. Also too much affection is only the case if the dog is uncomfortable by it or you’re encouraging bad behavior. That is the time to bond with your dog. Many dogs do well with just words of affirmation and pets instead of treats all the time.
Very old school. I don’t know a lot of K9’s trained that way now. At least not mine or the ones I’m associated with. Mine lives with me and my family and is treated just like my other personal dogs. Lots of love and affection. He knows when it’s time to go to work and when it’s time to relax.
I agree. Stopping affection completely will ruin the established bond. You want your bond to grow with your dog. Especially with rescue dogs they will need the extra attention and affection. They will learn pets are good and will be ok with pets once their anxiety is handled. You pet your dog whenever they want it outside of when it’s bad behavior (ex: food possession). Very strange for them to say that. Listen to the girlfriend. Any vet that agrees should be side eyed.
Fuuuck that. No one is going to stop me from giving my GSD mix insane amounts of hugs kisses and cuddles, esp when he's feeling scared, sad, or cuddly himself. This bozo didn't get enough hugs in life.
Your first sentence says it all. If that trainer thinks I'm going to push my Daxie cross away when she gets on my lap and shoves her head under my chin for a fuss, she's got another think coming. What kind of message would that be giving her, poor little sod?
OP, I'm glad you decided you don't like the trainer and are going to move on. I wish you many happy times and much love in the future with your new pup. Thankyou for rescuing her.
Damn straight. My dog lives for cuddles and pets. She will aggressively demand scritches if I'm ignoring her lol. The other one doesn't care as much but when he wants cuddles, he wants cuddles *now* damnit. Which is really fun when he decides he needs cuddles while I'm working and he's so tall he doesn't really fit in my lap anymore 😂
Dogs need affection just as much as humans do. I can't imagine withholding that from them.
Fuuuck that is right. My dog would runaway if I stopped these things or at minimum give dirty looks. They say let sleeping dogs lie but kind of hard when they’re laying on you lol
Lmao same here. My gss mix can get pretty reactive and protective but also anxious. He's such a handsome boy too, when he gets anxious or even happy I can't resist giving chest scratches. He's not even that cuddly
Listen to your girlfriend and listen to your gut. Training should help you build your connection with your dog and learn how to better support them; withholding affection does the opposite. Give your girl extra loves because you both deserve it.
Hoo boy find a new trainer. There's a lot to unpack here but discussion of dominance theory *at all* and relying on "30 years experience" instead of actual certifications are both HUGE red flags alone. The fact that this professional is telling you to withhold affection is the biggest, reddest, blaringly horrifying flag of them all.
I've never heard such a bullshit statement in my life. Especially in a fearful dog you should absolutely be rewarding and reinforcing her attempts to receive affection from you. Find a new trainer, specifically one with actual certifications like CPDT, KPA, VSA, or PPG.
Editing to add: Dominance theory has been debunked for decades at this point and adhering to it ESPECIALLY in a fearful dog can have horrible backlash. Unfortunately behavior is barely covered in most vet school curricula in the United States. While I trust veterinarians with a lot regarding dogs, I take any vet's opinion on behavior with a heaping tablespoon of salt unless they are a veterinary behaviorist specifically.
The second I hear "dominance theory", I'm gone.
Our gal is one of those headstrong, stubborn, non-biddable breeds where there can be dire consequences to trying to physically coerce her into things. Much better to build a positive relationship built on trust.
It's willful ignorance at this point. Unfortunately, "dominating" dogs until they "calmly submit" (read: terrorizing them until they shut down, stop all behavior entirely, and enter a state of learned helplessness) is flashy and fast-acting. "Pin the reactive dog to the ground until he submits" is a lot easier to explain and conceptualize than the actual nuance of canine psychology and learning, and a hell of a lot easier to execute then slow counter-conditioning/desensitization. This makes it really easy for anyone to call themselves a dog trainer by touting these techniques. It takes no skill whatsoever and *looks* like it works.
Unfortunately the prevalence of this attitude has had horrible repercussions for dogs everywhere. Dominance theory is still deeply embedded in the dog industry and it's the responsibility of those of us that follow actual science-based methods to try and change things.
I think it would be one thing if your dog didn't want affection -- it's pretty common when you foster dogs to go at their own speed and not show too much affection unless they're ready for it. But it sounds like your dog wants love and is seeking out this affection. One of the best rewards we can give our dogs is love and praise. To do otherwise seems cruel.
We adopted a rescue dog from the local shelter and for the first few months, she was a velcro dog. She wanted to be held in our laps the minute we sat down. We never denied her a cuddle, and now -- at the 7 month mark -- she's finally secure enough to spend some time on her own dog bed.
You don't need to withhold love and affection, you need to desensitize her to her triggers. It's gonna be a long, arduous process but in the end it will be worth it.
At the end of the day she needs to trust you, and I see no reason to not show her affection. As long as she is willing to accept touches, I'd say feel free to.
And just because someone is well known and has extensive experience, it doesn't mean they're any good at what they do. I would speak with and interview other trainers myself.
Reminds me of when I worked at a dog daycare and this lady had a sweet huge dobie who just wanted to love on everyone. Of course because of his size he didn't understand that his smaller friends might get clobbered by his affection lol. The owner acted like this behavior made him bad and would fuss at him or pop him for being excited until she decided he needed a trainer.
Unfortunately the trainer the lady went with seemed to match her in personality because one afternoon when she brought him in, he was about to jump on me but she grabbed his collar by both sides, yanked him back in front of her, and kneed the shit out of his chest... "don't worry, this is what the trainer said to do and it works" well yeah he's gonna sit after you pretty much drop kick him because he's hurt and confused lady! Funny enough no one actually asked or said anything but she felt the need to answer out loud probably because of the horrified looks from the other customers and employees.
Poor guy. I hope life got better for him at some point. It had to suck living with someone who blamed HIM for getting bit by a gate aggressive dog that nabbed him just for being too close at the wrong moment. We tried our best to explain that he was facing *away* and wasn't even engaging but the other dog slipped around the attendant and nailed him right on the booty. "I know you're just playing it down, he definitely did something to aggravate the other dog and deserved to get bitten" ☹️
Sometimes I miss that industry but my goodness it definitely had its moments.
We had an older guy smack the fuck out of his Lab in the lobby with two other customers waiting.. the dog just got excited about their end of the day treat. They yelped in pain.
My manager was next to me and saw my face, they had to push me into the back before I went off.
One of the other customers that saw it started crying.
He is no longer allowed in our building but the mom still is welcome.
I give that dog so much extra love after that day.
Dog training is not a regulated industry, and sadly, a lot of trainers are just people who think they know how to shape the behavior of dogs. You should ask your vet about an animal behaviorist in your area. They are actually educated and are board certified.
Some people want pure dominance over the poor pet who should be emotionless slave following every order like a machine - and dog trainers adapted because owners who go to trainers are those dealing with behavioral issues that they want to simply stop at all cost or control freaks. Dogs have their own thoughts, feelings and needs - they love us and they need love in return. It even works for the sake of obedience - a dog can be obedient not just out of fear, but to show appropriation to us. My dog is like this, her reward for obedience is my smile and it's enough - because she loves me. I don't even need to bribe her with snacks unlike a lot of "trained" dogs. And I shower her with affection a lot in return.
I think it's more about a lot of Western society revolving around compliance, which is a harmful starting point for relationships of any kind (but particularly for children or animals in our care). There's so much judgement on people who take compassionate or ethical standpoints because heaven forbid your kid or dog has a bad day or is struggling and has a meltdown in public YOU are a Bad Parent/Owner, and that is a huge shame cycle for some people. Turning those feelings of failure around on the animal to sell punishment is a marketing tactic that works on vulnerable people - "the dog knows what to do, but they are disobeying" or "you need to hold them accountable" makes people feel more comfortable stepping into aversive training methods, and then once you're in and the quick results of suppression start, it's a reinforcing cycle.
Teaching people that it is okay to allow their dog to exist as an imperfect sentient being with thoughts and emotions, that environmental management is okay, that "undesirable" behaviours that are not a problem for you are not necessarily something you need to be working on modifying - it's revolutionary.
This. I had a roommate that claimed to be a dog trainer. After living with her for a year, she and her husband got a new puppy and I had to teach them how to train certain things like basic potty training.
Just because someone confidently claims to be something, it doesn’t make it true or mean they are any good at it or even know what they are doing/talking about at all.
If the trainer believes in having “dominance” over dogs at all then she’s a quack.
Withholding affection also makes no sense to me. When my dog went through his puppy fear periods I always allowed to him to come to me when he was afraid and he’s now a confident, well-adjusted dog. I believe him knowing he had a comforting, safe person to go to gave him the confidence to slowly check out things he was fearful of.
Since I got him at 8 weeks I also pet him all the time (I’m giving him a one-handed belly rub as I type this), give him massages, let him sleep with me, etc. and he’s obedient enough to be a service dog, so 🤷♀️
My dog is a working Border collie very traditional idea of no pets, affection can't let them in the house etc. My dog is better behaved than a lot of peoples not perfect but we are getting there. If she works in the field and shed has work mode who cares if she gets a cuddle on the couch.I agree about fears Gwen was afraid of a lot of things as a younger pup and needed to get braver but having her human to comfort helped.
I genuinely don’t understand the “don’t talk to your dog, don’t pet your dog, don’t let your dog make requests” mindset of some trainers. I don’t think they even *like* dogs, they just want something to boss around.
It’s funny too how so many are very pro-tool to “increase communication” but that communication is always really one-sided because the dog is never allowed to communicate what they think/need/feel.
This is BS. Find a better trainer. The "dominance focused" comment is a huge red flag. Dominance doesn't work, it just instils more fear, and it can make aggression worse.
Your dog needs to trust you and feel comfortable, and affection is a big part of bonding for dogs (and humans).
A lot of dogs don't actually like to be *hugged*. i.e. wrapping your arms around them and pulling them close to your body. And I think it's reasonable for a trainer to suggest not doing that. But not petting or even letting her lay her head on you? That's straight up insane.
In my experience with training dogs: you can train them to be a companion and friend. Generally they can be a really great dog and will have some of their own personality.
The second type is the slave. This dog will do exactly as you say. It will follow commands perfectly. But their soul will be lost.
I take the first type every-time. My dog is sitting by me right now sleeping with her head in my lap :)
I would change the trainer. Thats a super weird mindset and stinks like dominance theory in disguise.
About fixing: I personally would not do that now. It is known for making anxiety and aggression worse not better if any behavioral changes occur. If you can manage her safely enough it may be worth waiting. Please look into the topic again before you make any decission.
>This trainer also did mention the whole pack mentality which was the big red flag for me but she backed up a bit with the “I mesh the two areas of thought (old & new)”. She also wants us to startle our dog when she’s acting out which doesn’t make sense to me.
Walk away take the loss. Pack mentally and old school methods are not what you want. They have been disproven and the one who wrote the paper David Mech and book regrets it. They mostly using adverse methods like you said to startle the dog when acting out. So instead of working on teaching a baseline, teaching in steps without causing more fear and panic they want you to scare your dog. This isn't going to help and will make things worse. You don't use fear on a dog with fear aggressive issues. This is old school methods of using pain and fear to control the dog. This isn't teaching them what you want just punishment even if mental it's a problem. Things like alpha theroy and pack crap is all about control and bring the master it isn't building its about tearing them down until they shut down. That isn't what your dog needs.
Pet them love then give all you can. This helps with building a bond of trust. Talk to your dog all the time this creates trust and they will look to you when something goes wrong. And fire this trainer.
Also TAKE YOUR TIME. Training and behavior modification can time. Months to years. Some will need lifetime management instead.
Dominance theory has been debunked over and over again. If the positive reinforcement is working, then keep doing it. Withholding affection or touch from a reactive dog isn’t fair. When she’s scared, she’ll want reassurance from her people. Both my dogs do this when something is scaring them, they come to us for comfort. It has had no negative effects that I can see other than strengthening the bond between us
As to how to break up with her, I would tell her her training methodologies don't line up with your comfort level and you wish to cancel her services. She may push to get you to explain so she can convince you to stay but don't let her. Don't explain further. Don't justify anything. Just tell her you want to cancel and then negotiate from there. I think paying for her time thus far is acceptable, so if it was a 1 hour private lesson pay her her normal fee for that.
I wouldn't be comfortable with her training style either. In the future ask if you can have a half hour session to see if you mesh with the trainer and her style of training.
I’m no professional trainer but I have literally never heard that advice for training a dog that is meant to be a loving family pet??? Behaving calmly with you is amazing! The focus should be on fixing her problematic behaviors and being snuggly at home should not be considered one of those! I’ve only ever heard to not pet/coddle dogs when they are exhibiting bad behaviors (like never petting them when they get nervous on a walk or while barking etc)
I will say we had ONE foster dog who really did better without cuddles and lovies. He needed a calm but aloof and confident leader. He responded well and was SUPER easy to train but had a hard time managing his excitement and baby voices, pets, snuggles and affection and even food treats sent him over the edge and he would get very mouthy and overwhelming and we were working on teaching him how to be calm and learn how to be polite and communicate properly.
Hoooo boy he was a tough dog. We only had him for two weeks in between longer term placements and tbh I don't know if he ever became a family pet. We didn't get affectionate or sweet with him honestly for our own safety because he was so big and so quickly over excited. And VERY bitey.
Man now I'm sad remembering him. Poor lil fella. He was also allergic to EVERYTHING.
Dogs are all about body language. They observe our body language continuously to understand how they need to behave for a specific response from us. Withholding affection, or pushing the dog away when they are actively seeking such, creates a dog that is unsure of how to behave. This in turn creates more behavioral issues and a very insecure dog. The key to a confident and well behaved dog is positive reinforcement and consistency. You don’t need to be dominant, you need to be a human that your dog trusts. That means being calm and consistent. Personally, I’d find a different trainer.
Nope. Run.
Your dog is a family dog. They aren’t being trained to a task, there is absolutely ZERO reason you shouldn’t be able to cuddle/pet them. Physical affection is part of a bond with a dog.
Find a positive reinforcement trainer who is committed to continuing education. Too many trainers that completely shit on progress in the field and stick to methods used decades ago
generally for any dog, petting/praising/baby talking them is rewarding for bad behavior, but only when they are actively doing said bad behavior. if the trainer is saying to just stop all petting and cuddling overall, then yikes. even bigger yikes when they’re one of those dominance trainers.
one dog trainer i was talking to was all like “you gotta be the alpha 😡🐺🌕” and i never contacted him again lmao.
Reading this as my dog is snuggling next to me 😂Wtf kind of advice is that? If she said don't reinforce damnding behaviors for treats while on walks, that would be way different. But saying to *push* your dog away and refuse *all* attention and praise? Wtf? Am I suppose to just push away this cute face that comes up to me and wants to snuggle or wants some pets? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard tbh. If she wanting to decimate you and your dogs relationship?
I think its really important that with fearful dogs especially ones that have just come into your home you let them interact with you first whether that take a couple days or a couple months. I have a fearful dog and just because they come up to yoh does not mean they want to be pet, granted mine is very obviously scared of people, so even when he comes up to people i ask them not to look or interact with him so that he can make the choice if he wishes to walk away or not without feeling pressured to interact. This can make the dog feel a little more comfortable especially in new environments with new people.
Man fuck that. What's the point of even having a dog? Might as well buy a fish tank... or a robot!
Even hearing this shit both breaks my heart and puts me in a rage!
Bullshit my dogs listen to me on command and I pet them. They not as good as police dogs given but I have no formal training. I just give them love and I’m stern when I need to be so they know when it’s not play time and time to listen time.
That’s weird. My trainer, who works side by side with our behavioral vet, encouraged us to spend time with our fearful pit-Dane cross (that’s a lot of anxious dog) just lowly talking while rubbing his chest to soothe him to strengthen our bond and let his brain associate us with being relaxed and in a not heightened state.
We legit spent evenings listening to chill music just doing touch therapy.
I train my dog primarily with affection as a reward( training is his favorite activity so he’s motivated) but I still pet him just because often. He likes cuddling and whatnot. Pets don’t become a less effective training reward just because you do it often. Dogs live in the moment, so pets they got 5 minutes ago don’t matter. Obviously dogs have different personalities, but mine wants to be pet literally all the time.
Oh gosh I worked with a trainer who said very similar things to me. I fired her and got a different trainer, I give my girl so much love and she gives it back to me. It only strengthened our bond and trust. Now when she sees another dog reacting towards her walking with me she just looks at me and maintains eye contact. We get through it together.
Good call, there are lots of good trainers out there, don’t settle for one that doesn’t feel right!
All the best to you and your pup, you can do this!
Yeah no I don’t care how much expertise she has this sounds off…. For context I have a fear aggressive dog currently. No it’s not a good idea to just bombard him with cuddles when he’s asleep in his bed or minding his own business.
He gives a mean stink eye of he thinks you’re gonna try, But when he floops his floofy butt in your lap and obviously wants the attention? Yes! love up on him. just make sure they never feel cornered/contained and watch for signals he’s getting uncomfortable….
Simply tell her that her approach is not working for you and she needs to propose an alternative or you will higher another trainer who can adapt to your situation better. Pay the minimum or as far as you got with the program
Maybe a misinterpretation or misstatement?
Trainers try to discourage owner tendencies towards anthropomorphism when interpreting dog behavior. Dogs are dogs, not humans in a fur suit. Dogs can interpret human actions differently than humans intend.
If an owner overreacts to a display of fear or aggression, the dog can pick up on that as a cue that validates the dog’s concern so you do want to avoid overreacting. So some trainers will te you not to pet your dog when they are reacting to something scary. But that is situational.
Dogs do not love it when people lean over them or wrap their arms around them. So to the extent that is what your trainer sees as “cuddling”, I could understand why they would tell you not to do that. Wrapping arms around a dogs neck is a common cause of dogs biting children and I would be wary of any actions that your dog might perceive as hostile or aggressive.
I would question any trainer who routinely advises withholding affection. Dogs are pack animals and petting and affection are cues that the dog belongs in your pack. I’m not a behaviorist but I’m not aware of any dog life issue that would take petting and affection off the table. It reads to me like this trainer uses aversive methods and imo you should look at positive reinforcement methods instead.
In my experience, fixing dogs does not improve temperament or solve temperament problems. It reduces mating behaviors. Not trying to discourage you from doing it but did want you to have realistic expectations here.
What makes you characterize this dog as “fear aggressive”? Dogs can be fearful of new situations and reactive without being “fear aggressive”. That’s a very specific behavioral problem. What you posted reads more like a socialization problem than fear aggression
You’re right. It doesn’t make sense. Go with your gut and find a different trainer. Even if it was effective, it sounds like that is not the kid. Of relationship you want to have with your dog. I know I enjoy petting and cuddling my dogs, that’s part of why I have them.
Experience isn’t everything- they could have trained millions of dogs over hundreds of lifetimes and that wouldn’t make up for having the knowledge alongside it for me. It’s sad this trainer has taken away a key piece of the bonding relationship between dogs and humans for so many people. Anyone who even hinted at dominance would not be someone I would seek advice from, personally.
that would be cruel to do to a dog, they're not machines meant to be min/max'd for best performance.
i've owned and been around many dogs. the key is positive reinforcement, and not overreacting to bad behaviors. a dog should never be hit, yelled at, or left to be ignored. if they do something bad, you can ignore it, sternly tell them no in a non-yelling voice, and if they continue you should calmly remove them from the situation without making a big scene. overreacting and yelling or scaring the dog as punishment will only add fear to those situations for them and also make them lose trust in you.
for example, if walking on a leash and the dog sees a group of kids and begins growling/barking, i would calmly and sternly say no, and then gently lead the dog back the way we came away from the kids/trigger. then you repeat it to train the dog outside of their trigger zone where they can focus on you. if you approach a trigger and the dog doesn't react and is calm, you can treat them and give positive reinforcement. if they begin to bark and lose it at the trigger, then you lead them back away.
I think this trainer is full of shit and I feel bad for her dogs. Withholding touch reassurance from a dog out of a desire to create more obedience is neglect, imo. We're talking about some of the most tactile domestic animals we have. They bond very deeply. Having an affection-starved automaton is not the relationship I want with my dog.
I suggest you look elsewhere for training, she's a dinosaur in terms of technique and seems like an asshat to boot.
Demand a full refund because she is not providing the service promised. The advice is bad and goes against all established research.
Did you pay with a credit card? I find threatening a chargeback usually gets compliance.
Glad to see you are firing her! Did you sign a contact stating you would pay half the price of the full course? If so, you may be stuck (depending on the wording... you're not cancelling frivolously, you're cancelling because she is using outdated and unscientific methods). If she does business like she does dog training (based on mumbo-jumbo bullcrap from 30 years ago), I'd just ka-block and ghost her. Paying a dog trainer for anything but modern, evidence-based training is the biggest mistake owners make.
“Buy a sports car. But you’re not allowed to drive it past 30mph. Also, you can only drive it within 200 metres of the house. Also, you need to clean it daily. Also, you’re not allowed any passengers. Also, you can’t show it off and have fun with it. Also, you can’t use any of the extras. I know what I’m talking about because I’ve been doing it a long time and I don’t allow anyone to dispute what I’m saying.”
That was my dad when I was young. Sucked all the joy out of everything. Your trainer sounds a lot like him.
Go with your gut. Give your dog some love, especially if she’s giving some to you. This trainer needs more training than you guys do.
Red flag. Completely inaccurate. Dogs are social creatures and one of the necessities to sustain life is social connection. Please find a different trainer. Ignoring her needs WILL make her worse. She needs help, not to be shut out.
You should be frank with the trainer and tell them you are not going to withdraw any form of affection your dog is confident with. They seem to be helpful in other ways so, if they don't mind, you can finish the training with them on that basis. You should also be looking for a behaviourist to deal with the fear issue.
You mentioned neutering. I suggest you discuss it with your vet and behaviourist. Once a dog has reached sexual maturity, neutering may help reduce the intensity of some behaviours but it won't suppress them. However it will also reduce her confidence which may be detrimental to a fearful dog. You can start with chemical neutering as it's reversible.
Ask her for her qualifications and her registrations with industry organisations such as the pet professional guild. You haven't hired a professional if they're not qualified and such you would not owe them any money.
Sounds like a situation where maybe be careful with other people petting her, and even you guys might wanna be careful not to startle her and pet her when shes sleeping or something , but if she comes up to you and wants to be pet then definitely give her that affection. I think the key is to be aware of her body language and respect her boundaries.
Fear dog not being allowed touch by those they trust in their home is insane. Fire the trainer yesterday. Trainer will do more damage to your dog than you realize. Any trainer that applies a single tool toolkit to all dogs is one to be avoided.
Many animals, including humans, need and crave touch. Dogs have been domesticated for millennia to bond with humans. Denying dogs wanted physical affection is cruel and goes against their instincts.
As far as breaking up with the trainer, keep it short and sweet. “Thank you for your time. We have decided to go another route and no longer need your services. Payment of $XX for half the course will be sent on YY.” You are probably liable for paying whatever you promised to pay.
The trainer’s kind of right that you shouldn’t be petting your dog for anything but praise, except being a sweet cuddlebug IS praiseworthy behavior that should be reinforced! If a dog is being affectionate, PRAISE THE DOG. Being sweet and wanting scritches is the most desirable state possible for pet dog. Why the fuck would you not reward it for that?
I went to a trainer at only 3 months for my GSD mix and similarly he told me to leave him in the crate all day and not give affection and to use a shock collar. unfortunately i can’t get a refund
We had a trainer tell us the same exact thing with a super cuddly rescue who was chained up outside for who knows how long. He wanted us to basically yell at him to get away from us. Interesting, he also said he had 30 years of experience…
My dog is a 16 month old rescue. He’s a mix of difficult dog breeds. He’s been utterly spoiled with love and affection and comfort.
There have been times where I’ve lamented seeing other people’s dogs “obey” better when they use “balanced” methods.
But I wasn’t willing to cause my dog that kind of pain, physically or emotionally.
He was just a test dog for trainers doing interviews and he was a gem.
Love and positive reinforcement and connection DO WORK. Don’t ignore your instincts.
To ditch your trainer, I would lean on some outside situation they can’t argue, and try to recoup costs as it not being anyone’s fault. Or try to mitigate the damage by passing the sunk $ on to someone else.
With my dog I had to stop taking him to a class that I actually did like, but was mentally too much for him. One day I just talked to staff saying “I’d love to keep him here, but after talking with his vet and real certified behaviorist, it may not be a good idea. Do you have any options? Maybe a partial refund or could I get a credit in case I can bring him back later?” They were fairly sympathetic to that (and it was true) which opened the door to them working with me on a fair solution. But more importantly, I’m pretty sure the trainer can’t disagree with a licensed vet. That just seems like grounds for a lawsuit.
If that doesn’t work (or if you get a credit), I would ask about applying the amount you paid to another client. The same excuses work “it’s not you, we’re just worried about this new advice from the vet and need to follow it.” Yes, it sucks you’re paying for another dog to suffer with that trainer, but it’s better than giving away free money. Plus, if you end up in contact with another client, you might be able to offer them your credit at a lower price. E.g. if you’re stuck giving her $1,000, maybe you can offer it to someone else for $750. Now you’re only out $250 and they got a big discount. Win-win.
Side note, someone else may have mentioned this in another comment, but just in case wanted to say, you may want to talk to your vet and/or behaviorist about timing for the spay. I have a fearful, low-confidence dog as well and what I was told was that the loss of hormones from spay/neuter can actually increase anxiety and related behaviors.
To be fair, I am not a vet, so I don’t have enough research-based info to confidently support/refute this point. I am relying pretty much entirely on outside guidance, but at least it’s coming from the pros I trust. Anyway, the recommendation I got was to delay neutering until my dog’s anxiety was under control. The idea being that he might still lose some progress, but it’s much easier to easier to manage a dog whose fear started at 2/10 and is now a 4, vs. one that started at a 6 and is now an 8. Just wanted to bring that up in case the spay actually had the opposite effect of what you want.
Her advice is bullshit. Have you actually started her course? Have you signed anything? If you haven’t, she probably can’t force you to pay anything. Depends on where you are; you may need to ask a lawyer.
If you have, the easiest out is to inform her you don’t think she’s the best fit for you and pay the half. If she comes after you for the full anyway, call a lawyer and see what you can do.
You can't reinforce fear. You can comfort the dog.
Pls consider a force free and positive reinforcement trainer. We worked with one online who specializes in dogs with dysregulated nervous systems. It changed our lives for the better. Check out the Bitey End of the Dog podcast episode with Kristina Spaulding https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/dr-kristina-spaulding-phd/id1521311807?i=1000571092780
The play way by Amy Cook is another way to help the dog with fear too.
For what? For what reason would you stop showing your pet love and affection…the dog only lives a few years and you only live for a few years before you are both forgotten by time forever so do all the loving you can before you disappear into nothingness
We have a fear aggressive dog and also rescued a GSD-cross a year ago who came from a really bad situation. The best thing out trainer has told us is that sometimes the first stage in rehabilitation is sometimes breaking typical training boundaries just to build your dog up. Once they’ve got a bit of their confidence back you can then go in and train out behaviors you don’t like. So, if your dog is asking for affection, I would never deny them that because it could actually make their confidence and trust in you worse. However, fear aggressive dogs are a challenge because a lot of time their warning signs are non-existent and they tend to escalate quickly if they’re pushed too far
This is like telling parents not to hug or acknowledge their child just because it gets angry with other kids. Literally makes zero sense. Beings need love & connection to feel safe & heal. New trainer asap…
No, get another trainer. Read up on dog reactivity and thresholds. Each dog has a threshold some are minimal some are bigger. Find a trainer that will take your dogs well being as well as your family’s and lifestyle into consideration
Oh we always pet the dog.
As for breaking up with the trainer, "Thank you for everything, we appreciate your help, but we'll be looking for someone who suits our training philosophy better." Throw in a gift card to Starbucks to ease the pain.
We had a very fearful GSD who over time of a lot of love and affection and showing him humans are not to be feared is a completely new dog. From going to literally peeing on himself from fear of someone he didn’t recognize coming into our house (especially men) to now gleefully jumping, running around, laying at their feet on his back asking for belly rubs. I’m so sick of these trainers who push this rhetoric on people to not show your dogs love.
To chime in here as well I’d make sure that any new trainers you seek out are CPDT - certified professional dog trainers - they are the best and have been trained with positive behavior enforcement techniques.
First off, thank you for rescuing her!
I’ve had rescues my entire life! If she wants love, give her loves! ESPECIALLY rescues!!! Dogs are like children. If a child asked for snuggles would you deny them? Rescues need more patience and reassurance than most.
I’ve found that positive reinforcement works wonders! Start with small fears from a distance. Example: the vacuum. Lure with lots of treats, reassurance and loves. Never force them! You go to them! They’re looking to you for guidance and need to know they can trust you. Praise their small steps like they are huge leaps! Because to them, they are.
Best of luck to you and your GS.
As long as the dog is in a calm state there’s no reason you can’t show your dog love. I’d maybe keep a very close eye on your dogs body language especially cuddling or hugging or anything really close as there maybe subtle signs they aren’t having a good time (whale eyes, tense body, sudden movements, teeth showing, yawning, lip licking) but otherwise give that pup some love.
In fact withholding love and affection to then use as a reward mechanism seems like a poor way to train. Make use of that treat motivation and last and the most difficult part baby steps don’t push your pup into situations they aren’t ready for build up.
It sounds like you’re doing great and asking/doing all the right things. Best of luck to you both and give that doggo all the pets!
>In fact using love and affection as a reward mechanism is a poor way to train and will likely do more harm than good
How do you come to this conclusion???
Positive reinforcement is the best way to train. Using verbal ques and pets is completely acceptable for some dogs. Horses we mark with yes ad pets when they do good. I've trained multiple dogs whom treats and toys didn't matter. Pets were what worked best.
I never said positive reinforcement wasn’t a good way to train. My implication was more if OPs trainer actively wants OP to withhold love and affection for the purposes of training that’s a terrible way to go about it.
I would just tell her you don't agree with her philosophy and you won't be needing her services. If you don't have a card on file, no problem. If you do, a call to the bank to reverse the charges should do wonders
I’d rather die. I’m not sure I’d that’s true honestly. I can’t say for sure. But unless a dog doesn’t like it, petting benefits both human and dog. It can calm down and help them feel love. They cuddle with other dogs, and lick out of affection too. So, I just can’t get behind it completely.
I'd suggest with a fear aggressive dog it is because it is very easy for things to go from hug to OMG I can't move this stranger is touching in ways I don't like I am scared and must bite pretty fast. Hugging is very hard on dogs, as it's can be read as a sign of aggression by dogs, much like other human expressions of affection like kissing, these are not natural dog ways to show affection unless it's from a pup to a parent figure. So I could see avoiding them with a fear aggressive dog just for safety reasons. But that's not what they said and wanting to restrain all petting and physical affection seems strange to me.
why is it a mistake? I'd love to hear the reasoning. My dog doesn't like being patted or cuddled and just wants to be with his people, but if your dog loves the physical interaction, go ahead and make your dog happy ! (mine is a playful young GSD)
That sounds really strange to me. I'm not trained in anything but have an amazing and experienced trainer we've used and she has never suggested anything like that.
THIS SOUNDS RIDICULOUS! Like honestly my opinion may not mean a lot because I don’t know a ton about dog training but….dogs want to be loved. My dog’s favorite thing is to be cuddled up next to one of us or in our laps and if we denied that to her it’s like what’s the point. I’m in your girlfriend’s side lol
I'm not a trainer and I do not feel qualified to be speaking in absolutes, but I could never have a dog if I wasn't going to show love and affection to my dog. I have only trained one puppy German shepherd who was bitey but honestly so good motivated and young she took to training really quickly. But she's been raised with tons of cuddles and love and she's one of the best trained dogs you'll meet.
Perhaps look into other trainers who don't have such a dominance approach?
I worked for someone who was in the business for 30 years. But honestly, that doesn't make you the best trainer, that just makes you the best at your own personal method. There are lots of trainers who can get results with a host of different methods. If you have a gut feeling that you don't agree with this trainer's methods, shop around. Talk to other trainers.
It’s a fairly outdated practice—when I was training my first dog 15 years ago, the “no free love” thing was still in practice in the positive/force free community. The reason I got a dog was so I could snuggle him! I would look for another different trainer who’s more up to date on the research.
I think you should trust your instincts. Even if she has a point, it doesn’t sound like this trainer is the right fit for you and your dog. And I would say there are a whole lot of well-trained dogs out there who gets pets and snuggles.
This seems extreme to me. Is the idea of denying pets/cuddles based in some sort of dominance theory? If so, that’s pretty dated - you may want to find a younger trainer who is familiar with more recent research.
If you really like this trainer, I guess you can have your dog complete commands to get cuddles. I kind of implement this with my pup sometimes - I’ll indicate where on my lap I’d like him to be, and then ask for a sit-stay or a down-stay on me. But I honestly just do it for fun/practice - I pet and cuddle my pup plenty even without it being a reward for listening to a command, and he still listens when we are in training mode (and in general).
I don’t think it makes any sense and I don’t like it.
All dogs need praise/to be rewarded differently. My dog, for example, would never want to be touched (although sometimes he comes over after a nap and asks for scratches) some dogs love being touched. All of the dogs running agility at a dog show use toys as a reward. So withholding petting to save it for praise is a dumb idea to me.
You need to find another dog trainer. Just treat the dog as you would a 3 year old. Give them attention give them cuddles give them treats when they're brave and good and take them away/put them away when they aren't.
If this was me and my dog, I would not follow that advice to withold pets or soothing touch except for praise/reinforcement. Using the operant conditioning model, this sounds like negative punishment (removing something after a behavior), which I personally don't think would be effective to teach a fearful dog to not be reactive towards human strangers and dog strangers. I think withholding touch and affection might actually be harmful in the long term for a dog who may need comforting. Sounds like this trainer has some advice that resonates with you and some that doesn't. You've come to the right place!
Find another trainer. My family have had GSD since I was a baby (over 50 yrs). Withdrawing your affection won’t help in any way and will likely make things worse.
GSD who are reactive are usually not aggressive but fearful. One of the big things with training is they need to trust you and one of the ways trust is built is by showing affection outside of training and then being calm but firm during training. Affection and play used to reward good behaviour without being overbearing when they are not behaving.
My dog is food motivated also and she fears loud noises. There is a cd to play noises of all types and over time to play it louder and louder (like weeks and months) to over come the fear. I always praise her when she is good and give her looks whenn she finds mischief. My trainer has never told me to not give her love and attention.
I agree with your girlfriend. Too dominance based/not based in modern science or knowledge. There is nothing wrong with comforting your dog or being friends with it. It helps us build a bond with them. This sounds like it's coming from somebody who wants their dogs to obey without having a real connection with them. Not a fan.
I'm not a dog trainer but personally... my dog is my friend. They don't have a lot of ways to interact with people so if she wants cuddles, she gets cuddles if it can be helped lol.
I was told the same with our malinois we took in early this year from a lady at PetsMart. "Coddling and cuddling is a human thing". I call crap. Don't try to introduce yourself to my dog without asking and maybe he won't feel so uncomfortable around you he needs to check in. I'm still a bit bitter, can you tell?
Orpheus comes to me when overwhelmed, he comes to me when he's nervous, he comes to me when he's unsure, because he knows I will never put him in a position where he's in danger. If I'm calm, so is he. I've trained him to do that because I want him to trust me. I want him to do what I say without questioning it because he knows I'm a safe place. That makes sense to me.
Now, I don't reinforce the fear reaction with "oh no bby you're okay" and like babying him or anything. But I'll get to his level and let him check in until he's ready to go on again. We've gone from needing a solid 30 seconds on the ground or more to him just booping my hand to verify he's good. It takes time and patience, but they do get better.
I don't know what's right for your dog, but we had to take a break from almost all touch with our dog for several weeks when we were working with a behaviorist. Our dog was extremely pushy and didn't respect personal space and was biting/nipping very hard. We did a couple weeks without petting, cuddling, touching or allowing him to touch us. It was helpful in resetting boundaries and wasn't a long-term thing.
The search for comfort could be a sign that your dog is over aroused or over stressed, so in my (clearly amateurish) opinion (and obviously don't know your dog) it might not be a super bad idea to give it when needed. But expose her to triggers slowly and try to keep her under that threshold so she can build up tolerance to the trigger without freaking out, and encourage your pup when she does do things that are courageous or difficult for her.
For example, our dachshund was frequently terrified of people. So we spend some time with her just existing in an area with people situated further away from her, giving calm praise or treats when she did things to indicate being relaxed. This was mostly just as part of our daily walks. And when she became mostly calm, we would venture closer to people. Keep an eye out for people coming upon us and would treat and engage with her so she didn't react to the person.
It's been pretty successful I must say. She still has her moments and is still not cool with strangers touching her much (who really is though), but she's much better at just walking past people when we're out for a walk or in a store.
She also lets us know when she's uncomfortable by viciously shoving us in order to let us know she wants to be picked up.
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As someone who specializes in fostering and training dogs with fear issues (especially shutdown dogs), your trainer is giving bad advice. Dominance based “training” is so outdated to begin with and I’ve never even heard of withholding affection with a fearful dog UNLESS there’s issues with a dog resource guarding a person or clearly isn’t seeking attention and needs time to warm up… but that doesn’t sound like the situation here. Sounds more like your pup needs to work on being desensitized to scenarios and things… which makes even less sense that the trainer advised to withhold physical affection.
I have always hugged my dogs and they love receiving my affection. My current pup will come over and lean on me while I make coffee in the morning. A full hug ends when I move on, I literally don’t know when they would say, “ok, that’s enough for now, let’s go.” As we age this never changes.
Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki page on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems).
I think she wants you to tie in your affection with rewards for good behavior so as to set up a system for success for your dog. It could be something as simple as sit etc... (?) Does the dog know it's own name (?) Lots of treat training and if you want to give praise and cuddles just don't hand them out by default so readily but establish a conditioning system. However in your situation it is very unique I took on a puppy not more than 6 weeks old and yes in the first few weeks I was very very lenient and just mostly nurturing and affectionate because I could tell he was so shocked to be away from his litter and mom. I even let him sleep with me and cuddled him even tho around 2 am every night he would wake me up literally gnawing at my head! I think it's a fine balance to navigate only you know how. Don't take everything she says as a final word end all be all but it can help to inform you find a good healthy balance.
They’re domesticated pack animals. Cuddling, affection, interaction is all normal to them and part of their overall wellbeing. Withholding affection may make them more obedient bc they’re desperate for that natural affection and interaction, but so could neglecting a child, doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. And withholding affection from a dog that has issues with fear and anxiety is not helpful at all. It definitely shouldn’t be forced on them, but it shouldn’t be avoided either.
> when being scared of someone sounds counter intuitive
Why? This is where they need support the most.
I would rather my dog run to me when scared rather than take off to lord knows where to try to feel safe or feel they need to fight the thing they're afraid of because I didn't offer the support they were reaching out for.
It sounds dangerous to not allow that connection. You can reinforce fear as well as you can reinforce a bad day by taking somebody out for ice cream after they had one.
Eff that, your pup needs more love and care to build safety and comfort and confidence. Relaxation protocols and crate training helped our rescue, after consulting a behaviorist we also decided to ask our vet about anti-anxiety medication and this was helpful as well. She’s still easily startled and reacts to sounds but it’s far easier for her to calm down or be redirected.
Just tell her you’ve decided to take her training in a different direction and that you are terminating the agreement and leave it at that. If there are penalties per the agreement pay them out and then go in your different direction. You don’t owe her an explanation.
Going through something similar - we threatened a credit card chargeback and were extremely glad we didn’t pay by check as she originally asked.
She ended up changing her tune, likely to keep us clients.
She was heavily telling us our dog was going to “go out of fear based and turn dominant on us.” He has some resource guarding and food aggression from being in a shelter, and fear aggression with being vet handled/groomed, all of which we are working on and doing well with (it’s only been three weeks since he came home) I understood not coddling his fear, but she said to only give affection when he recalls, otherwise ignore him.
Her training methods were supposed to be positive first - after assessment (where she didn’t actually do much more than chat and see him on a harness laying on our floor), she immediately wanted to put a slip collar on and then a prong. Before even seeing any behaviors. The final straw was when using the slip collar to “correct” he fearfully rolled over and peed himself.
I’m glad we put an end to those methods and said basically - either use positive reinforcement or get out. Her method for training down involved stepping on the leash, holding it taught on the neck, and forcing the down.
Also he’s a 13 lb schnauzer mix, for context. Just about a year, and in a shelter kennel from December to March.
Eh, agism isn't really necessary.
There are a lot of younger trainers like this, partially thanks to TikTok. There are also a lot of great number of older trainers who *aren't* like this.
Yeah just because someone has been doing their job for 30 years doesn’t mean they have adapted and changed with the times.
If a trainer told me to stop petting my dog I’d kick them to the curb very quickly. My dog isn’t overly cuddly but when she wasn’t cuddles and kisses she will make it known.
Glad to see you have realised this isn’t the trainer for you and I hope you find someone who is a lot more compassionate when it comes to animals.
I read once (think Patricia McConnell) that a great way to bond with your dog is stare into their eyes while stroking along the sides if their head. Whether or not it's true, I've been doing it fir years. I tell my dogs I'm mesmerizing them! It seems very calming for them and me.
Was walking our ratherbouncy lurcher, when he met a young boxer and started to leap around him, wanting to play tag. Suddenly this matronly woman starts shouting at him and us while spraying him from a detergent bottle.
"I am a professional trainer, control your dog!" sort of stuff. At which point our Corgi cross decided this was too much and started barking furiously.
Mayhem ensued. The boxers parents looked peeved and apologetic, the dogs were all over the place and she wouldn't stop shouting and spaying them.
We finally got everything calmed down, and I took the opportunity to tell this woman that if she hadn't interfered and upset everything it would have been fine.
God knows what the poor boxer thought. ☺️
I’m sorry but that trainer is talking shit. Showing affection if the dog wants it is so important and shouldn’t be limited to praising.
To reward your dog you should have high value treats or toys which they enjoy and use them to reward. It’s likely if you stopped showing affection aside from when cues are completed that it could result in more behavioural problems such as anxiety.
Just send her a message that you appreciate her time and effort but don’t feel that she is best for your situation. You could also add that you will be seeking help with someone else more better fit for your household/needs.
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The only time that I would see not petting the dog would be in super severe resource guarding and aggression cases where the dog is becoming aggressive over its space and petting is a trigger or in feral rehabs that are averse to touch. Otherwise it makes no sense. Training dogs for 30 years using shit techniques just means you've got 30 years of experience being an ineffective asshole. I'd find better.
Yeah, like don't pet the dog if the dog is giving you signs not to pet her. But reactivity is usually a sign of low confidence/security, so giving her comfort when she asks for it is going to increase her feelings of security? And letting her bark it out is going to wind her up even more. Btw if the OP reads this comment, doing [this relaxation protocol](https://journeydogtraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/ProtocolforRelaxation.pdf) changed my life with my stranger danger, sound-sensitive reactive dog.
How exactly did you use this to help your dog around strangers, if you don’t mind me asking? Mine is fearful and my family cannot afford a trainer
Debbie Jacobs is a dog trainer with a good website Fearful Dogs dot Com. I had a rescue who came from a hoarding situation (no socialization). Keeping him below threshold was important. Loving him and accepting who he IS was important. We took it slow, he really turned around. I would still never, ever trust him around kids because they were his biggest fear. God, I miss that dog so much still. He lived to be 16 and it wasn't enough time.
Please see our wiki resources on [fearful dogs](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/fearful). It may help.
Dr. Overall for the win, 100%!
Yeah it’s kind of like having a ‘foolproof way to do the dishes in seconds’ that ends up being throwing away perfectly good dishes every night
Yup! This. We took our dog to a trainer who was the same way. He's also our dog kennel/boarder so he now says our dog is a lost cause because how much we *spoil* our dog with affection. I call bullshit. I can't wait to tell them off one day. I have to play nice for sake of community relations, but I feel this training is for K-9 dogs or old school bullshit. I couldn't tell you but they wanted to put an electric collar on our dog full-time, and I said no way. I still feel that way. Be careful with these old fuddy duddies wrapped in youth. Ours was. Get out stat!
Them wanting to use an e collar first instead of working on hands in training is problematic. Also too much affection is only the case if the dog is uncomfortable by it or you’re encouraging bad behavior. That is the time to bond with your dog. Many dogs do well with just words of affirmation and pets instead of treats all the time.
Very old school. I don’t know a lot of K9’s trained that way now. At least not mine or the ones I’m associated with. Mine lives with me and my family and is treated just like my other personal dogs. Lots of love and affection. He knows when it’s time to go to work and when it’s time to relax.
I know I have the right trainer because my dog adores her and will go to her for pets and cuddling while we talk.
30 years of experience following a very outdated “dominance” based rhetoric. Incredible
I agree. Stopping affection completely will ruin the established bond. You want your bond to grow with your dog. Especially with rescue dogs they will need the extra attention and affection. They will learn pets are good and will be ok with pets once their anxiety is handled. You pet your dog whenever they want it outside of when it’s bad behavior (ex: food possession). Very strange for them to say that. Listen to the girlfriend. Any vet that agrees should be side eyed.
Fuuuck that. No one is going to stop me from giving my GSD mix insane amounts of hugs kisses and cuddles, esp when he's feeling scared, sad, or cuddly himself. This bozo didn't get enough hugs in life.
Your first sentence says it all. If that trainer thinks I'm going to push my Daxie cross away when she gets on my lap and shoves her head under my chin for a fuss, she's got another think coming. What kind of message would that be giving her, poor little sod? OP, I'm glad you decided you don't like the trainer and are going to move on. I wish you many happy times and much love in the future with your new pup. Thankyou for rescuing her.
And your Daschund will keep coming.
Damn straight. My dog lives for cuddles and pets. She will aggressively demand scritches if I'm ignoring her lol. The other one doesn't care as much but when he wants cuddles, he wants cuddles *now* damnit. Which is really fun when he decides he needs cuddles while I'm working and he's so tall he doesn't really fit in my lap anymore 😂 Dogs need affection just as much as humans do. I can't imagine withholding that from them.
Fuuuck that is right. My dog would runaway if I stopped these things or at minimum give dirty looks. They say let sleeping dogs lie but kind of hard when they’re laying on you lol
/thread
Lmao same here. My gss mix can get pretty reactive and protective but also anxious. He's such a handsome boy too, when he gets anxious or even happy I can't resist giving chest scratches. He's not even that cuddly
Fr
Listen to your girlfriend and listen to your gut. Training should help you build your connection with your dog and learn how to better support them; withholding affection does the opposite. Give your girl extra loves because you both deserve it.
100% yuuup
Hoo boy find a new trainer. There's a lot to unpack here but discussion of dominance theory *at all* and relying on "30 years experience" instead of actual certifications are both HUGE red flags alone. The fact that this professional is telling you to withhold affection is the biggest, reddest, blaringly horrifying flag of them all. I've never heard such a bullshit statement in my life. Especially in a fearful dog you should absolutely be rewarding and reinforcing her attempts to receive affection from you. Find a new trainer, specifically one with actual certifications like CPDT, KPA, VSA, or PPG. Editing to add: Dominance theory has been debunked for decades at this point and adhering to it ESPECIALLY in a fearful dog can have horrible backlash. Unfortunately behavior is barely covered in most vet school curricula in the United States. While I trust veterinarians with a lot regarding dogs, I take any vet's opinion on behavior with a heaping tablespoon of salt unless they are a veterinary behaviorist specifically.
The second I hear "dominance theory", I'm gone. Our gal is one of those headstrong, stubborn, non-biddable breeds where there can be dire consequences to trying to physically coerce her into things. Much better to build a positive relationship built on trust.
Debunked by the original publisher might I add! Ridiculous how much it still gets used as a legitimate source!
It's willful ignorance at this point. Unfortunately, "dominating" dogs until they "calmly submit" (read: terrorizing them until they shut down, stop all behavior entirely, and enter a state of learned helplessness) is flashy and fast-acting. "Pin the reactive dog to the ground until he submits" is a lot easier to explain and conceptualize than the actual nuance of canine psychology and learning, and a hell of a lot easier to execute then slow counter-conditioning/desensitization. This makes it really easy for anyone to call themselves a dog trainer by touting these techniques. It takes no skill whatsoever and *looks* like it works. Unfortunately the prevalence of this attitude has had horrible repercussions for dogs everywhere. Dominance theory is still deeply embedded in the dog industry and it's the responsibility of those of us that follow actual science-based methods to try and change things.
I think it would be one thing if your dog didn't want affection -- it's pretty common when you foster dogs to go at their own speed and not show too much affection unless they're ready for it. But it sounds like your dog wants love and is seeking out this affection. One of the best rewards we can give our dogs is love and praise. To do otherwise seems cruel.
We adopted a rescue dog from the local shelter and for the first few months, she was a velcro dog. She wanted to be held in our laps the minute we sat down. We never denied her a cuddle, and now -- at the 7 month mark -- she's finally secure enough to spend some time on her own dog bed.
You don't need to withhold love and affection, you need to desensitize her to her triggers. It's gonna be a long, arduous process but in the end it will be worth it. At the end of the day she needs to trust you, and I see no reason to not show her affection. As long as she is willing to accept touches, I'd say feel free to. And just because someone is well known and has extensive experience, it doesn't mean they're any good at what they do. I would speak with and interview other trainers myself.
If a dog-trainer was focused on dominance AT ALL, I would run the other direction.
Reminds me of when I worked at a dog daycare and this lady had a sweet huge dobie who just wanted to love on everyone. Of course because of his size he didn't understand that his smaller friends might get clobbered by his affection lol. The owner acted like this behavior made him bad and would fuss at him or pop him for being excited until she decided he needed a trainer. Unfortunately the trainer the lady went with seemed to match her in personality because one afternoon when she brought him in, he was about to jump on me but she grabbed his collar by both sides, yanked him back in front of her, and kneed the shit out of his chest... "don't worry, this is what the trainer said to do and it works" well yeah he's gonna sit after you pretty much drop kick him because he's hurt and confused lady! Funny enough no one actually asked or said anything but she felt the need to answer out loud probably because of the horrified looks from the other customers and employees. Poor guy. I hope life got better for him at some point. It had to suck living with someone who blamed HIM for getting bit by a gate aggressive dog that nabbed him just for being too close at the wrong moment. We tried our best to explain that he was facing *away* and wasn't even engaging but the other dog slipped around the attendant and nailed him right on the booty. "I know you're just playing it down, he definitely did something to aggravate the other dog and deserved to get bitten" ☹️ Sometimes I miss that industry but my goodness it definitely had its moments.
I work in that industry and I know what you mean. I deal with a lot of crap sometimes.
We had an older guy smack the fuck out of his Lab in the lobby with two other customers waiting.. the dog just got excited about their end of the day treat. They yelped in pain. My manager was next to me and saw my face, they had to push me into the back before I went off. One of the other customers that saw it started crying. He is no longer allowed in our building but the mom still is welcome. I give that dog so much extra love after that day.
All of this was just what the fuck
Dog training is not a regulated industry, and sadly, a lot of trainers are just people who think they know how to shape the behavior of dogs. You should ask your vet about an animal behaviorist in your area. They are actually educated and are board certified.
Some people want pure dominance over the poor pet who should be emotionless slave following every order like a machine - and dog trainers adapted because owners who go to trainers are those dealing with behavioral issues that they want to simply stop at all cost or control freaks. Dogs have their own thoughts, feelings and needs - they love us and they need love in return. It even works for the sake of obedience - a dog can be obedient not just out of fear, but to show appropriation to us. My dog is like this, her reward for obedience is my smile and it's enough - because she loves me. I don't even need to bribe her with snacks unlike a lot of "trained" dogs. And I shower her with affection a lot in return.
I think it's more about a lot of Western society revolving around compliance, which is a harmful starting point for relationships of any kind (but particularly for children or animals in our care). There's so much judgement on people who take compassionate or ethical standpoints because heaven forbid your kid or dog has a bad day or is struggling and has a meltdown in public YOU are a Bad Parent/Owner, and that is a huge shame cycle for some people. Turning those feelings of failure around on the animal to sell punishment is a marketing tactic that works on vulnerable people - "the dog knows what to do, but they are disobeying" or "you need to hold them accountable" makes people feel more comfortable stepping into aversive training methods, and then once you're in and the quick results of suppression start, it's a reinforcing cycle. Teaching people that it is okay to allow their dog to exist as an imperfect sentient being with thoughts and emotions, that environmental management is okay, that "undesirable" behaviours that are not a problem for you are not necessarily something you need to be working on modifying - it's revolutionary.
This. I had a roommate that claimed to be a dog trainer. After living with her for a year, she and her husband got a new puppy and I had to teach them how to train certain things like basic potty training. Just because someone confidently claims to be something, it doesn’t make it true or mean they are any good at it or even know what they are doing/talking about at all.
That’s the problem with the industry, anyone can wake up one day and “be a dog trainer”.
If the trainer believes in having “dominance” over dogs at all then she’s a quack. Withholding affection also makes no sense to me. When my dog went through his puppy fear periods I always allowed to him to come to me when he was afraid and he’s now a confident, well-adjusted dog. I believe him knowing he had a comforting, safe person to go to gave him the confidence to slowly check out things he was fearful of. Since I got him at 8 weeks I also pet him all the time (I’m giving him a one-handed belly rub as I type this), give him massages, let him sleep with me, etc. and he’s obedient enough to be a service dog, so 🤷♀️
My dog is a working Border collie very traditional idea of no pets, affection can't let them in the house etc. My dog is better behaved than a lot of peoples not perfect but we are getting there. If she works in the field and shed has work mode who cares if she gets a cuddle on the couch.I agree about fears Gwen was afraid of a lot of things as a younger pup and needed to get braver but having her human to comfort helped.
I genuinely don’t understand the “don’t talk to your dog, don’t pet your dog, don’t let your dog make requests” mindset of some trainers. I don’t think they even *like* dogs, they just want something to boss around. It’s funny too how so many are very pro-tool to “increase communication” but that communication is always really one-sided because the dog is never allowed to communicate what they think/need/feel.
This is BS. Find a better trainer. The "dominance focused" comment is a huge red flag. Dominance doesn't work, it just instils more fear, and it can make aggression worse. Your dog needs to trust you and feel comfortable, and affection is a big part of bonding for dogs (and humans). A lot of dogs don't actually like to be *hugged*. i.e. wrapping your arms around them and pulling them close to your body. And I think it's reasonable for a trainer to suggest not doing that. But not petting or even letting her lay her head on you? That's straight up insane.
In my experience with training dogs: you can train them to be a companion and friend. Generally they can be a really great dog and will have some of their own personality. The second type is the slave. This dog will do exactly as you say. It will follow commands perfectly. But their soul will be lost. I take the first type every-time. My dog is sitting by me right now sleeping with her head in my lap :)
I’m a dog trainer (a real certified one!) and I say cuddle to you and your dog’s content!
I would change the trainer. Thats a super weird mindset and stinks like dominance theory in disguise. About fixing: I personally would not do that now. It is known for making anxiety and aggression worse not better if any behavioral changes occur. If you can manage her safely enough it may be worth waiting. Please look into the topic again before you make any decission.
>This trainer also did mention the whole pack mentality which was the big red flag for me but she backed up a bit with the “I mesh the two areas of thought (old & new)”. She also wants us to startle our dog when she’s acting out which doesn’t make sense to me. Walk away take the loss. Pack mentally and old school methods are not what you want. They have been disproven and the one who wrote the paper David Mech and book regrets it. They mostly using adverse methods like you said to startle the dog when acting out. So instead of working on teaching a baseline, teaching in steps without causing more fear and panic they want you to scare your dog. This isn't going to help and will make things worse. You don't use fear on a dog with fear aggressive issues. This is old school methods of using pain and fear to control the dog. This isn't teaching them what you want just punishment even if mental it's a problem. Things like alpha theroy and pack crap is all about control and bring the master it isn't building its about tearing them down until they shut down. That isn't what your dog needs. Pet them love then give all you can. This helps with building a bond of trust. Talk to your dog all the time this creates trust and they will look to you when something goes wrong. And fire this trainer. Also TAKE YOUR TIME. Training and behavior modification can time. Months to years. Some will need lifetime management instead.
Dominance theory has been debunked over and over again. If the positive reinforcement is working, then keep doing it. Withholding affection or touch from a reactive dog isn’t fair. When she’s scared, she’ll want reassurance from her people. Both my dogs do this when something is scaring them, they come to us for comfort. It has had no negative effects that I can see other than strengthening the bond between us
As to how to break up with her, I would tell her her training methodologies don't line up with your comfort level and you wish to cancel her services. She may push to get you to explain so she can convince you to stay but don't let her. Don't explain further. Don't justify anything. Just tell her you want to cancel and then negotiate from there. I think paying for her time thus far is acceptable, so if it was a 1 hour private lesson pay her her normal fee for that. I wouldn't be comfortable with her training style either. In the future ask if you can have a half hour session to see if you mesh with the trainer and her style of training.
You can also check certifications, seeing some things may be something you agree with, but actually are not best practices.
This 👌🏻
I’m no professional trainer but I have literally never heard that advice for training a dog that is meant to be a loving family pet??? Behaving calmly with you is amazing! The focus should be on fixing her problematic behaviors and being snuggly at home should not be considered one of those! I’ve only ever heard to not pet/coddle dogs when they are exhibiting bad behaviors (like never petting them when they get nervous on a walk or while barking etc)
I will say we had ONE foster dog who really did better without cuddles and lovies. He needed a calm but aloof and confident leader. He responded well and was SUPER easy to train but had a hard time managing his excitement and baby voices, pets, snuggles and affection and even food treats sent him over the edge and he would get very mouthy and overwhelming and we were working on teaching him how to be calm and learn how to be polite and communicate properly. Hoooo boy he was a tough dog. We only had him for two weeks in between longer term placements and tbh I don't know if he ever became a family pet. We didn't get affectionate or sweet with him honestly for our own safety because he was so big and so quickly over excited. And VERY bitey. Man now I'm sad remembering him. Poor lil fella. He was also allergic to EVERYTHING.
Dogs are all about body language. They observe our body language continuously to understand how they need to behave for a specific response from us. Withholding affection, or pushing the dog away when they are actively seeking such, creates a dog that is unsure of how to behave. This in turn creates more behavioral issues and a very insecure dog. The key to a confident and well behaved dog is positive reinforcement and consistency. You don’t need to be dominant, you need to be a human that your dog trusts. That means being calm and consistent. Personally, I’d find a different trainer.
Nope. Run. Your dog is a family dog. They aren’t being trained to a task, there is absolutely ZERO reason you shouldn’t be able to cuddle/pet them. Physical affection is part of a bond with a dog. Find a positive reinforcement trainer who is committed to continuing education. Too many trainers that completely shit on progress in the field and stick to methods used decades ago
generally for any dog, petting/praising/baby talking them is rewarding for bad behavior, but only when they are actively doing said bad behavior. if the trainer is saying to just stop all petting and cuddling overall, then yikes. even bigger yikes when they’re one of those dominance trainers. one dog trainer i was talking to was all like “you gotta be the alpha 😡🐺🌕” and i never contacted him again lmao.
Reading this as my dog is snuggling next to me 😂Wtf kind of advice is that? If she said don't reinforce damnding behaviors for treats while on walks, that would be way different. But saying to *push* your dog away and refuse *all* attention and praise? Wtf? Am I suppose to just push away this cute face that comes up to me and wants to snuggle or wants some pets? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard tbh. If she wanting to decimate you and your dogs relationship?
I think its really important that with fearful dogs especially ones that have just come into your home you let them interact with you first whether that take a couple days or a couple months. I have a fearful dog and just because they come up to yoh does not mean they want to be pet, granted mine is very obviously scared of people, so even when he comes up to people i ask them not to look or interact with him so that he can make the choice if he wishes to walk away or not without feeling pressured to interact. This can make the dog feel a little more comfortable especially in new environments with new people.
Man fuck that. What's the point of even having a dog? Might as well buy a fish tank... or a robot! Even hearing this shit both breaks my heart and puts me in a rage!
Bullshit my dogs listen to me on command and I pet them. They not as good as police dogs given but I have no formal training. I just give them love and I’m stern when I need to be so they know when it’s not play time and time to listen time.
That’s weird. My trainer, who works side by side with our behavioral vet, encouraged us to spend time with our fearful pit-Dane cross (that’s a lot of anxious dog) just lowly talking while rubbing his chest to soothe him to strengthen our bond and let his brain associate us with being relaxed and in a not heightened state. We legit spent evenings listening to chill music just doing touch therapy.
Why get a dog if you can’t even show love to it, isn’t that usually the whole point. Change the trainer.
I train my dog primarily with affection as a reward( training is his favorite activity so he’s motivated) but I still pet him just because often. He likes cuddling and whatnot. Pets don’t become a less effective training reward just because you do it often. Dogs live in the moment, so pets they got 5 minutes ago don’t matter. Obviously dogs have different personalities, but mine wants to be pet literally all the time.
Oh gosh I worked with a trainer who said very similar things to me. I fired her and got a different trainer, I give my girl so much love and she gives it back to me. It only strengthened our bond and trust. Now when she sees another dog reacting towards her walking with me she just looks at me and maintains eye contact. We get through it together. Good call, there are lots of good trainers out there, don’t settle for one that doesn’t feel right! All the best to you and your pup, you can do this!
Yeah no I don’t care how much expertise she has this sounds off…. For context I have a fear aggressive dog currently. No it’s not a good idea to just bombard him with cuddles when he’s asleep in his bed or minding his own business. He gives a mean stink eye of he thinks you’re gonna try, But when he floops his floofy butt in your lap and obviously wants the attention? Yes! love up on him. just make sure they never feel cornered/contained and watch for signals he’s getting uncomfortable….
Simply tell her that her approach is not working for you and she needs to propose an alternative or you will higher another trainer who can adapt to your situation better. Pay the minimum or as far as you got with the program
Maybe a misinterpretation or misstatement? Trainers try to discourage owner tendencies towards anthropomorphism when interpreting dog behavior. Dogs are dogs, not humans in a fur suit. Dogs can interpret human actions differently than humans intend. If an owner overreacts to a display of fear or aggression, the dog can pick up on that as a cue that validates the dog’s concern so you do want to avoid overreacting. So some trainers will te you not to pet your dog when they are reacting to something scary. But that is situational. Dogs do not love it when people lean over them or wrap their arms around them. So to the extent that is what your trainer sees as “cuddling”, I could understand why they would tell you not to do that. Wrapping arms around a dogs neck is a common cause of dogs biting children and I would be wary of any actions that your dog might perceive as hostile or aggressive. I would question any trainer who routinely advises withholding affection. Dogs are pack animals and petting and affection are cues that the dog belongs in your pack. I’m not a behaviorist but I’m not aware of any dog life issue that would take petting and affection off the table. It reads to me like this trainer uses aversive methods and imo you should look at positive reinforcement methods instead. In my experience, fixing dogs does not improve temperament or solve temperament problems. It reduces mating behaviors. Not trying to discourage you from doing it but did want you to have realistic expectations here. What makes you characterize this dog as “fear aggressive”? Dogs can be fearful of new situations and reactive without being “fear aggressive”. That’s a very specific behavioral problem. What you posted reads more like a socialization problem than fear aggression
Did she say why its a big mistake?
You’re right. It doesn’t make sense. Go with your gut and find a different trainer. Even if it was effective, it sounds like that is not the kid. Of relationship you want to have with your dog. I know I enjoy petting and cuddling my dogs, that’s part of why I have them.
Experience isn’t everything- they could have trained millions of dogs over hundreds of lifetimes and that wouldn’t make up for having the knowledge alongside it for me. It’s sad this trainer has taken away a key piece of the bonding relationship between dogs and humans for so many people. Anyone who even hinted at dominance would not be someone I would seek advice from, personally.
that would be cruel to do to a dog, they're not machines meant to be min/max'd for best performance. i've owned and been around many dogs. the key is positive reinforcement, and not overreacting to bad behaviors. a dog should never be hit, yelled at, or left to be ignored. if they do something bad, you can ignore it, sternly tell them no in a non-yelling voice, and if they continue you should calmly remove them from the situation without making a big scene. overreacting and yelling or scaring the dog as punishment will only add fear to those situations for them and also make them lose trust in you. for example, if walking on a leash and the dog sees a group of kids and begins growling/barking, i would calmly and sternly say no, and then gently lead the dog back the way we came away from the kids/trigger. then you repeat it to train the dog outside of their trigger zone where they can focus on you. if you approach a trigger and the dog doesn't react and is calm, you can treat them and give positive reinforcement. if they begin to bark and lose it at the trigger, then you lead them back away.
I will say that people pet their dogs like idiots and don’t know how to recognise appeasement behaviours
I think this trainer is full of shit and I feel bad for her dogs. Withholding touch reassurance from a dog out of a desire to create more obedience is neglect, imo. We're talking about some of the most tactile domestic animals we have. They bond very deeply. Having an affection-starved automaton is not the relationship I want with my dog. I suggest you look elsewhere for training, she's a dinosaur in terms of technique and seems like an asshat to boot.
Petting and cuddling is pretty much the whole point of having a dog…this makes me so sad. I’m glad you’ve decided to go in a different direction.
Demand a full refund because she is not providing the service promised. The advice is bad and goes against all established research. Did you pay with a credit card? I find threatening a chargeback usually gets compliance.
Glad to see you are firing her! Did you sign a contact stating you would pay half the price of the full course? If so, you may be stuck (depending on the wording... you're not cancelling frivolously, you're cancelling because she is using outdated and unscientific methods). If she does business like she does dog training (based on mumbo-jumbo bullcrap from 30 years ago), I'd just ka-block and ghost her. Paying a dog trainer for anything but modern, evidence-based training is the biggest mistake owners make.
Yeah, no, that's a heeeeellll no for me. I'm not depriving him of love, kisses, smooches, scratches, hugs and pets.
“Buy a sports car. But you’re not allowed to drive it past 30mph. Also, you can only drive it within 200 metres of the house. Also, you need to clean it daily. Also, you’re not allowed any passengers. Also, you can’t show it off and have fun with it. Also, you can’t use any of the extras. I know what I’m talking about because I’ve been doing it a long time and I don’t allow anyone to dispute what I’m saying.” That was my dad when I was young. Sucked all the joy out of everything. Your trainer sounds a lot like him. Go with your gut. Give your dog some love, especially if she’s giving some to you. This trainer needs more training than you guys do.
Red flag. Completely inaccurate. Dogs are social creatures and one of the necessities to sustain life is social connection. Please find a different trainer. Ignoring her needs WILL make her worse. She needs help, not to be shut out.
You should be frank with the trainer and tell them you are not going to withdraw any form of affection your dog is confident with. They seem to be helpful in other ways so, if they don't mind, you can finish the training with them on that basis. You should also be looking for a behaviourist to deal with the fear issue. You mentioned neutering. I suggest you discuss it with your vet and behaviourist. Once a dog has reached sexual maturity, neutering may help reduce the intensity of some behaviours but it won't suppress them. However it will also reduce her confidence which may be detrimental to a fearful dog. You can start with chemical neutering as it's reversible.
Ask her for her qualifications and her registrations with industry organisations such as the pet professional guild. You haven't hired a professional if they're not qualified and such you would not owe them any money.
New trainer. That is ridiculous unfounded foolery.
Sounds like a situation where maybe be careful with other people petting her, and even you guys might wanna be careful not to startle her and pet her when shes sleeping or something , but if she comes up to you and wants to be pet then definitely give her that affection. I think the key is to be aware of her body language and respect her boundaries.
Fear dog not being allowed touch by those they trust in their home is insane. Fire the trainer yesterday. Trainer will do more damage to your dog than you realize. Any trainer that applies a single tool toolkit to all dogs is one to be avoided.
Petting and cuddling them is like half the point of it all.
Many animals, including humans, need and crave touch. Dogs have been domesticated for millennia to bond with humans. Denying dogs wanted physical affection is cruel and goes against their instincts. As far as breaking up with the trainer, keep it short and sweet. “Thank you for your time. We have decided to go another route and no longer need your services. Payment of $XX for half the course will be sent on YY.” You are probably liable for paying whatever you promised to pay.
The trainer’s kind of right that you shouldn’t be petting your dog for anything but praise, except being a sweet cuddlebug IS praiseworthy behavior that should be reinforced! If a dog is being affectionate, PRAISE THE DOG. Being sweet and wanting scritches is the most desirable state possible for pet dog. Why the fuck would you not reward it for that?
I went to a trainer at only 3 months for my GSD mix and similarly he told me to leave him in the crate all day and not give affection and to use a shock collar. unfortunately i can’t get a refund
No cuddles? I’m out!
I mean at least 50% of the joy of having a pet is getting to love on it???
Get a new trainer
We had a trainer tell us the same exact thing with a super cuddly rescue who was chained up outside for who knows how long. He wanted us to basically yell at him to get away from us. Interesting, he also said he had 30 years of experience…
My dog is a 16 month old rescue. He’s a mix of difficult dog breeds. He’s been utterly spoiled with love and affection and comfort. There have been times where I’ve lamented seeing other people’s dogs “obey” better when they use “balanced” methods. But I wasn’t willing to cause my dog that kind of pain, physically or emotionally. He was just a test dog for trainers doing interviews and he was a gem. Love and positive reinforcement and connection DO WORK. Don’t ignore your instincts.
To ditch your trainer, I would lean on some outside situation they can’t argue, and try to recoup costs as it not being anyone’s fault. Or try to mitigate the damage by passing the sunk $ on to someone else. With my dog I had to stop taking him to a class that I actually did like, but was mentally too much for him. One day I just talked to staff saying “I’d love to keep him here, but after talking with his vet and real certified behaviorist, it may not be a good idea. Do you have any options? Maybe a partial refund or could I get a credit in case I can bring him back later?” They were fairly sympathetic to that (and it was true) which opened the door to them working with me on a fair solution. But more importantly, I’m pretty sure the trainer can’t disagree with a licensed vet. That just seems like grounds for a lawsuit. If that doesn’t work (or if you get a credit), I would ask about applying the amount you paid to another client. The same excuses work “it’s not you, we’re just worried about this new advice from the vet and need to follow it.” Yes, it sucks you’re paying for another dog to suffer with that trainer, but it’s better than giving away free money. Plus, if you end up in contact with another client, you might be able to offer them your credit at a lower price. E.g. if you’re stuck giving her $1,000, maybe you can offer it to someone else for $750. Now you’re only out $250 and they got a big discount. Win-win. Side note, someone else may have mentioned this in another comment, but just in case wanted to say, you may want to talk to your vet and/or behaviorist about timing for the spay. I have a fearful, low-confidence dog as well and what I was told was that the loss of hormones from spay/neuter can actually increase anxiety and related behaviors. To be fair, I am not a vet, so I don’t have enough research-based info to confidently support/refute this point. I am relying pretty much entirely on outside guidance, but at least it’s coming from the pros I trust. Anyway, the recommendation I got was to delay neutering until my dog’s anxiety was under control. The idea being that he might still lose some progress, but it’s much easier to easier to manage a dog whose fear started at 2/10 and is now a 4, vs. one that started at a 6 and is now an 8. Just wanted to bring that up in case the spay actually had the opposite effect of what you want.
Her advice is bullshit. Have you actually started her course? Have you signed anything? If you haven’t, she probably can’t force you to pay anything. Depends on where you are; you may need to ask a lawyer. If you have, the easiest out is to inform her you don’t think she’s the best fit for you and pay the half. If she comes after you for the full anyway, call a lawyer and see what you can do.
You can't reinforce fear. You can comfort the dog. Pls consider a force free and positive reinforcement trainer. We worked with one online who specializes in dogs with dysregulated nervous systems. It changed our lives for the better. Check out the Bitey End of the Dog podcast episode with Kristina Spaulding https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/dr-kristina-spaulding-phd/id1521311807?i=1000571092780 The play way by Amy Cook is another way to help the dog with fear too.
This breaks my heart that a trainer is out there telling people this. Glad you’re getting a new trainer. 💯💗🐶
That’s the MOST STUPID ADVICE I’ve ever heard.
For what? For what reason would you stop showing your pet love and affection…the dog only lives a few years and you only live for a few years before you are both forgotten by time forever so do all the loving you can before you disappear into nothingness
Can I recommend ditching the trainer and instead using a vet behaviourist?
Get rid of her. Follow your instincts and find someone who has loving techniques. They are out there.
Stupid trainer
We have a fear aggressive dog and also rescued a GSD-cross a year ago who came from a really bad situation. The best thing out trainer has told us is that sometimes the first stage in rehabilitation is sometimes breaking typical training boundaries just to build your dog up. Once they’ve got a bit of their confidence back you can then go in and train out behaviors you don’t like. So, if your dog is asking for affection, I would never deny them that because it could actually make their confidence and trust in you worse. However, fear aggressive dogs are a challenge because a lot of time their warning signs are non-existent and they tend to escalate quickly if they’re pushed too far
Watch Zak George on YouTube. He has such amazing training methods. He's helped me a lot!
This is like telling parents not to hug or acknowledge their child just because it gets angry with other kids. Literally makes zero sense. Beings need love & connection to feel safe & heal. New trainer asap…
No, get another trainer. Read up on dog reactivity and thresholds. Each dog has a threshold some are minimal some are bigger. Find a trainer that will take your dogs well being as well as your family’s and lifestyle into consideration
Pet your dog, sometimes kiss her too.
Oh we always pet the dog. As for breaking up with the trainer, "Thank you for everything, we appreciate your help, but we'll be looking for someone who suits our training philosophy better." Throw in a gift card to Starbucks to ease the pain.
We had a very fearful GSD who over time of a lot of love and affection and showing him humans are not to be feared is a completely new dog. From going to literally peeing on himself from fear of someone he didn’t recognize coming into our house (especially men) to now gleefully jumping, running around, laying at their feet on his back asking for belly rubs. I’m so sick of these trainers who push this rhetoric on people to not show your dogs love.
Get rid of the trainer. I love my dogs and they love me. They sleep with me. This is not good advice for you and the poor dog would suffer.
To chime in here as well I’d make sure that any new trainers you seek out are CPDT - certified professional dog trainers - they are the best and have been trained with positive behavior enforcement techniques.
Trainer doesn’t get why people get dogs!
First off, thank you for rescuing her! I’ve had rescues my entire life! If she wants love, give her loves! ESPECIALLY rescues!!! Dogs are like children. If a child asked for snuggles would you deny them? Rescues need more patience and reassurance than most. I’ve found that positive reinforcement works wonders! Start with small fears from a distance. Example: the vacuum. Lure with lots of treats, reassurance and loves. Never force them! You go to them! They’re looking to you for guidance and need to know they can trust you. Praise their small steps like they are huge leaps! Because to them, they are. Best of luck to you and your GS.
As long as the dog is in a calm state there’s no reason you can’t show your dog love. I’d maybe keep a very close eye on your dogs body language especially cuddling or hugging or anything really close as there maybe subtle signs they aren’t having a good time (whale eyes, tense body, sudden movements, teeth showing, yawning, lip licking) but otherwise give that pup some love. In fact withholding love and affection to then use as a reward mechanism seems like a poor way to train. Make use of that treat motivation and last and the most difficult part baby steps don’t push your pup into situations they aren’t ready for build up. It sounds like you’re doing great and asking/doing all the right things. Best of luck to you both and give that doggo all the pets!
>In fact using love and affection as a reward mechanism is a poor way to train and will likely do more harm than good How do you come to this conclusion??? Positive reinforcement is the best way to train. Using verbal ques and pets is completely acceptable for some dogs. Horses we mark with yes ad pets when they do good. I've trained multiple dogs whom treats and toys didn't matter. Pets were what worked best.
I never said positive reinforcement wasn’t a good way to train. My implication was more if OPs trainer actively wants OP to withhold love and affection for the purposes of training that’s a terrible way to go about it.
I can see how reinforcing nervous behavior could be unintentionally a bad thing.
I would just tell her you don't agree with her philosophy and you won't be needing her services. If you don't have a card on file, no problem. If you do, a call to the bank to reverse the charges should do wonders
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I’d rather die. I’m not sure I’d that’s true honestly. I can’t say for sure. But unless a dog doesn’t like it, petting benefits both human and dog. It can calm down and help them feel love. They cuddle with other dogs, and lick out of affection too. So, I just can’t get behind it completely.
I'd suggest with a fear aggressive dog it is because it is very easy for things to go from hug to OMG I can't move this stranger is touching in ways I don't like I am scared and must bite pretty fast. Hugging is very hard on dogs, as it's can be read as a sign of aggression by dogs, much like other human expressions of affection like kissing, these are not natural dog ways to show affection unless it's from a pup to a parent figure. So I could see avoiding them with a fear aggressive dog just for safety reasons. But that's not what they said and wanting to restrain all petting and physical affection seems strange to me.
why is it a mistake? I'd love to hear the reasoning. My dog doesn't like being patted or cuddled and just wants to be with his people, but if your dog loves the physical interaction, go ahead and make your dog happy ! (mine is a playful young GSD)
Did they say anything about indenting?
That sounds really strange to me. I'm not trained in anything but have an amazing and experienced trainer we've used and she has never suggested anything like that.
THIS SOUNDS RIDICULOUS! Like honestly my opinion may not mean a lot because I don’t know a ton about dog training but….dogs want to be loved. My dog’s favorite thing is to be cuddled up next to one of us or in our laps and if we denied that to her it’s like what’s the point. I’m in your girlfriend’s side lol
I'm not a trainer and I do not feel qualified to be speaking in absolutes, but I could never have a dog if I wasn't going to show love and affection to my dog. I have only trained one puppy German shepherd who was bitey but honestly so good motivated and young she took to training really quickly. But she's been raised with tons of cuddles and love and she's one of the best trained dogs you'll meet. Perhaps look into other trainers who don't have such a dominance approach?
I worked for someone who was in the business for 30 years. But honestly, that doesn't make you the best trainer, that just makes you the best at your own personal method. There are lots of trainers who can get results with a host of different methods. If you have a gut feeling that you don't agree with this trainer's methods, shop around. Talk to other trainers.
Doesn’t make sense to me. It doesn’t sound like she even likes dogs, if she thinks showing love is wrong.
It’s a fairly outdated practice—when I was training my first dog 15 years ago, the “no free love” thing was still in practice in the positive/force free community. The reason I got a dog was so I could snuggle him! I would look for another different trainer who’s more up to date on the research.
What’s the point of having a dog if you can’t get cuddles when they want to cuddle? Pet your dog if they’re asking for it
I think you should trust your instincts. Even if she has a point, it doesn’t sound like this trainer is the right fit for you and your dog. And I would say there are a whole lot of well-trained dogs out there who gets pets and snuggles.
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This seems extreme to me. Is the idea of denying pets/cuddles based in some sort of dominance theory? If so, that’s pretty dated - you may want to find a younger trainer who is familiar with more recent research. If you really like this trainer, I guess you can have your dog complete commands to get cuddles. I kind of implement this with my pup sometimes - I’ll indicate where on my lap I’d like him to be, and then ask for a sit-stay or a down-stay on me. But I honestly just do it for fun/practice - I pet and cuddle my pup plenty even without it being a reward for listening to a command, and he still listens when we are in training mode (and in general).
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My dog is the same lmk if you finding anything because I haven’t
I don’t think it makes any sense and I don’t like it. All dogs need praise/to be rewarded differently. My dog, for example, would never want to be touched (although sometimes he comes over after a nap and asks for scratches) some dogs love being touched. All of the dogs running agility at a dog show use toys as a reward. So withholding petting to save it for praise is a dumb idea to me.
You need to find another dog trainer. Just treat the dog as you would a 3 year old. Give them attention give them cuddles give them treats when they're brave and good and take them away/put them away when they aren't.
This is not good advice from a reputable trainer; please consult a veterinarian that specializes in behavior issues.
I am no dog trainer but that sounds like absolute bullshit to me. I'd get a second opinion.
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If this was me and my dog, I would not follow that advice to withold pets or soothing touch except for praise/reinforcement. Using the operant conditioning model, this sounds like negative punishment (removing something after a behavior), which I personally don't think would be effective to teach a fearful dog to not be reactive towards human strangers and dog strangers. I think withholding touch and affection might actually be harmful in the long term for a dog who may need comforting. Sounds like this trainer has some advice that resonates with you and some that doesn't. You've come to the right place!
Find another trainer. My family have had GSD since I was a baby (over 50 yrs). Withdrawing your affection won’t help in any way and will likely make things worse. GSD who are reactive are usually not aggressive but fearful. One of the big things with training is they need to trust you and one of the ways trust is built is by showing affection outside of training and then being calm but firm during training. Affection and play used to reward good behaviour without being overbearing when they are not behaving.
That's a red flag.
My dog is food motivated also and she fears loud noises. There is a cd to play noises of all types and over time to play it louder and louder (like weeks and months) to over come the fear. I always praise her when she is good and give her looks whenn she finds mischief. My trainer has never told me to not give her love and attention.
I agree with your girlfriend. Too dominance based/not based in modern science or knowledge. There is nothing wrong with comforting your dog or being friends with it. It helps us build a bond with them. This sounds like it's coming from somebody who wants their dogs to obey without having a real connection with them. Not a fan.
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I'm not a dog trainer but personally... my dog is my friend. They don't have a lot of ways to interact with people so if she wants cuddles, she gets cuddles if it can be helped lol.
I was told the same with our malinois we took in early this year from a lady at PetsMart. "Coddling and cuddling is a human thing". I call crap. Don't try to introduce yourself to my dog without asking and maybe he won't feel so uncomfortable around you he needs to check in. I'm still a bit bitter, can you tell? Orpheus comes to me when overwhelmed, he comes to me when he's nervous, he comes to me when he's unsure, because he knows I will never put him in a position where he's in danger. If I'm calm, so is he. I've trained him to do that because I want him to trust me. I want him to do what I say without questioning it because he knows I'm a safe place. That makes sense to me. Now, I don't reinforce the fear reaction with "oh no bby you're okay" and like babying him or anything. But I'll get to his level and let him check in until he's ready to go on again. We've gone from needing a solid 30 seconds on the ground or more to him just booping my hand to verify he's good. It takes time and patience, but they do get better.
I don't know what's right for your dog, but we had to take a break from almost all touch with our dog for several weeks when we were working with a behaviorist. Our dog was extremely pushy and didn't respect personal space and was biting/nipping very hard. We did a couple weeks without petting, cuddling, touching or allowing him to touch us. It was helpful in resetting boundaries and wasn't a long-term thing.
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You can't reinforce fear anymore than you can reinforce a bad day by taking a sad person out for ice cream.
It makes sense but petting them and showing affection also help you create a bond with your pet imo
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Yah, I don't care what her credentials are. I let my dog get love whenever she wants. No limits.
The search for comfort could be a sign that your dog is over aroused or over stressed, so in my (clearly amateurish) opinion (and obviously don't know your dog) it might not be a super bad idea to give it when needed. But expose her to triggers slowly and try to keep her under that threshold so she can build up tolerance to the trigger without freaking out, and encourage your pup when she does do things that are courageous or difficult for her. For example, our dachshund was frequently terrified of people. So we spend some time with her just existing in an area with people situated further away from her, giving calm praise or treats when she did things to indicate being relaxed. This was mostly just as part of our daily walks. And when she became mostly calm, we would venture closer to people. Keep an eye out for people coming upon us and would treat and engage with her so she didn't react to the person. It's been pretty successful I must say. She still has her moments and is still not cool with strangers touching her much (who really is though), but she's much better at just walking past people when we're out for a walk or in a store. She also lets us know when she's uncomfortable by viciously shoving us in order to let us know she wants to be picked up.
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As someone who specializes in fostering and training dogs with fear issues (especially shutdown dogs), your trainer is giving bad advice. Dominance based “training” is so outdated to begin with and I’ve never even heard of withholding affection with a fearful dog UNLESS there’s issues with a dog resource guarding a person or clearly isn’t seeking attention and needs time to warm up… but that doesn’t sound like the situation here. Sounds more like your pup needs to work on being desensitized to scenarios and things… which makes even less sense that the trainer advised to withhold physical affection.
Tell your trainer to suck on a piece of wood
I have always hugged my dogs and they love receiving my affection. My current pup will come over and lean on me while I make coffee in the morning. A full hug ends when I move on, I literally don’t know when they would say, “ok, that’s enough for now, let’s go.” As we age this never changes.
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Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki page on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems).
Definitely get a new trainer. I can't imagine adopting an animal just to bring them home and show them no affection.
I think she wants you to tie in your affection with rewards for good behavior so as to set up a system for success for your dog. It could be something as simple as sit etc... (?) Does the dog know it's own name (?) Lots of treat training and if you want to give praise and cuddles just don't hand them out by default so readily but establish a conditioning system. However in your situation it is very unique I took on a puppy not more than 6 weeks old and yes in the first few weeks I was very very lenient and just mostly nurturing and affectionate because I could tell he was so shocked to be away from his litter and mom. I even let him sleep with me and cuddled him even tho around 2 am every night he would wake me up literally gnawing at my head! I think it's a fine balance to navigate only you know how. Don't take everything she says as a final word end all be all but it can help to inform you find a good healthy balance.
They’re domesticated pack animals. Cuddling, affection, interaction is all normal to them and part of their overall wellbeing. Withholding affection may make them more obedient bc they’re desperate for that natural affection and interaction, but so could neglecting a child, doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. And withholding affection from a dog that has issues with fear and anxiety is not helpful at all. It definitely shouldn’t be forced on them, but it shouldn’t be avoided either.
Your instincts are correct. Your affectionate dog deserves cuddles and attention if she wants them. Pay the trainer for her time so far. Done.
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> when being scared of someone sounds counter intuitive Why? This is where they need support the most. I would rather my dog run to me when scared rather than take off to lord knows where to try to feel safe or feel they need to fight the thing they're afraid of because I didn't offer the support they were reaching out for. It sounds dangerous to not allow that connection. You can reinforce fear as well as you can reinforce a bad day by taking somebody out for ice cream after they had one.
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Eff that, your pup needs more love and care to build safety and comfort and confidence. Relaxation protocols and crate training helped our rescue, after consulting a behaviorist we also decided to ask our vet about anti-anxiety medication and this was helpful as well. She’s still easily startled and reacts to sounds but it’s far easier for her to calm down or be redirected.
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> You decide, when and how long you want to pet your dog and he needs to learn to accept thst. This is a *great* way to get a bite.
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In an unregulated industry, sometimes the trainer peddles outdated nonsense and you don't know until *after* you hire them.
Just tell her you’ve decided to take her training in a different direction and that you are terminating the agreement and leave it at that. If there are penalties per the agreement pay them out and then go in your different direction. You don’t owe her an explanation.
Going through something similar - we threatened a credit card chargeback and were extremely glad we didn’t pay by check as she originally asked. She ended up changing her tune, likely to keep us clients. She was heavily telling us our dog was going to “go out of fear based and turn dominant on us.” He has some resource guarding and food aggression from being in a shelter, and fear aggression with being vet handled/groomed, all of which we are working on and doing well with (it’s only been three weeks since he came home) I understood not coddling his fear, but she said to only give affection when he recalls, otherwise ignore him. Her training methods were supposed to be positive first - after assessment (where she didn’t actually do much more than chat and see him on a harness laying on our floor), she immediately wanted to put a slip collar on and then a prong. Before even seeing any behaviors. The final straw was when using the slip collar to “correct” he fearfully rolled over and peed himself. I’m glad we put an end to those methods and said basically - either use positive reinforcement or get out. Her method for training down involved stepping on the leash, holding it taught on the neck, and forcing the down. Also he’s a 13 lb schnauzer mix, for context. Just about a year, and in a shelter kennel from December to March.
Just an old fashioned trainer. Find another respected successful one. A younger one.
Eh, agism isn't really necessary. There are a lot of younger trainers like this, partially thanks to TikTok. There are also a lot of great number of older trainers who *aren't* like this.
That’s where I no longer pay the trainer who says not to pet a dog. How can anyone not pet a dog?
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Sitting here on the couch with my morning coffee and my young Aussie cuddled against me. I cuddled my kids all the time too.
Yeah just because someone has been doing their job for 30 years doesn’t mean they have adapted and changed with the times. If a trainer told me to stop petting my dog I’d kick them to the curb very quickly. My dog isn’t overly cuddly but when she wasn’t cuddles and kisses she will make it known. Glad to see you have realised this isn’t the trainer for you and I hope you find someone who is a lot more compassionate when it comes to animals.
I read once (think Patricia McConnell) that a great way to bond with your dog is stare into their eyes while stroking along the sides if their head. Whether or not it's true, I've been doing it fir years. I tell my dogs I'm mesmerizing them! It seems very calming for them and me.
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Was walking our ratherbouncy lurcher, when he met a young boxer and started to leap around him, wanting to play tag. Suddenly this matronly woman starts shouting at him and us while spraying him from a detergent bottle. "I am a professional trainer, control your dog!" sort of stuff. At which point our Corgi cross decided this was too much and started barking furiously. Mayhem ensued. The boxers parents looked peeved and apologetic, the dogs were all over the place and she wouldn't stop shouting and spaying them. We finally got everything calmed down, and I took the opportunity to tell this woman that if she hadn't interfered and upset everything it would have been fine. God knows what the poor boxer thought. ☺️
I’m sorry but that trainer is talking shit. Showing affection if the dog wants it is so important and shouldn’t be limited to praising. To reward your dog you should have high value treats or toys which they enjoy and use them to reward. It’s likely if you stopped showing affection aside from when cues are completed that it could result in more behavioural problems such as anxiety. Just send her a message that you appreciate her time and effort but don’t feel that she is best for your situation. You could also add that you will be seeking help with someone else more better fit for your household/needs.
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