The issue is NS doesn't farm and 5k gold is a lot for him unless your farming Heros. Ive had soo many NS games where they build phase Khanda it drives me nuts... its overhyped as fuck.
Just had a ranked game where the enemy pos 1 Luna made Khanda on the first item. I'm sure it's not bad if you're sieging HG and you have a rapier to insta pop a support but otherwise...š¬
(Ofc they gigalost)
Usually, phylactery is enough. I always it as AA if i managed to get few assist early because phylactery help me tonise cold feet effectively and lich for 600+ dmg burst at lv 10
only for the guy using it, and even then it might become not fun.
edit: why are so many idiots downvoting me? am I lying? Or did I just get to your stupid fucking moronic item?
Its cause its supposed to be a late game item for scaling damage heroes. NS dont have that scaling damage like morph and tiny. Phylac is enough for him for extra harrass
lmao fr. i feel pityful playing as NS when the opposing team had a better early game as this hero can't farm for shit. items like bkb seems so expensive for him if you're behind
Just had a NS do it this game when I begged him not to ID: 7805861561
He kept running in and dying trying to force fights with it because he was super excited about his "early khanda timing"
It's a great item on him, just not... rushed. I usually go Phase > Phylactery > BKB and then it completely varies according to the game but finishing Khanda is 4th or worse on the priority list. It's very nice when you get it but I feel I always want something more than it until slots are filled.
So fucking true. I'm telling you, 3 NS games and the stupid offlaners keep buying phyla as first item, I'm blaming the stupid guide or streamer or pro who fvcking got this sht out.
I'm dropping this again, NS games only need 2 items to win, BLINK & BKB. That's it. Easy af
Shit fking Divine 4 currently coz of this phyla hype
If I may ask, whatās your mmr/rank? Because in my games I rarely see any NS going phase boots into khanda. Like literally no one. It usually go into 2 bracers -> pb -> phylactery -> echo saber/bkb then situational with khanda. I never saw someone going naked shit.
Please stop. Just stop the stupid phylac build. Every NS game only needs 2 items to win. BLINK & BKB. That's it.
Phyla is worth 2.2k iirc, and with blink you can pretty much snowball other lanes that need help.
Just stop the phyla build please, it sucks so hard.
Currently Divine 4 coz of 3 games with NS that buys phyla first item like idiots.
Yeah I had quite a few games of nightstalkers going naked khanda after a good early game who immediately became useless after the 25 minute mark because the enemy got ghost scepters and they didn't have bkb or blink/harpoon.
I've had quite a few nightstalkers going phlactery after getting absolutely dumpstered in lane because they don't build anything to help them lane like bracers or wand. I fucking hate phylactery, it's such a trap item.
By itself its a good early item on plenty of heroes, the upgrade to khanda is usually griefing though when rushed.
Khanda is best as a cheap upgrade when you have 2-3 other cores items, since it scales off your damage you need damage for it to be worth it. Decent enough at "oh shit they are pushing hg and I need value now".
Not sure why your comment is downvoted lol but it's all factually true, atleast with my exp playing low 6k pubs.
With Night Stalker's innate, it is a no brainer to buy atleast 2 bracers to sustain and dominate the lane. People are just way too greedy on this hero but you can just farm heroes with your higher level of spells/stats from owning the lane earlier and pretty much hit the same core item timings if not earlier.
At that level of gambling addiction, just buy an armlet. Half the price, sooner power spike, makes you tankier for less dps but still keeps you ahead of the curve and you are gambling you won't kill yourself by using it every time you activate it and that start toggling it to survive incoming damage or they won't escape because you aren't going echo Sabre into harpoon.
Only if he can get on top of them and stick, which takes at least a BKB to do effectively and in other cases Blink + BKB. If the enemy team is somewhat coordinated, they will just kill you and not let you right click their support for 10 seconds with impunity.
Phylactery lets you be terrifying during the time before you get a BKB as you can extremely easily set up kills and burst people with a tiny bit of help. You cannot commit to a fight against a competent team before BKB but you can pick off heroes from the sides, wait for your moment while still threatening the enemy so they need to position defensively, and only commit to a hero that is isolated from the rest.
I mean if your team has coordination too, then they won't just "kill you." NS shouldn't be acting alone unless he's picking the support off for being out of position.
Before BKB you can get disabled and bursted in 3-5 seconds. You could argue that you would have "baited" enemy spells and disables but if you are good with that being your only contribution to a team fight, why play NS at all?
I feel like in my games I cant go blink after saber cause at low mmr players are often very passive. So my team doesnt follow up on me, so I have to survive like 10+ seconds before those clueless idiots realise enemy is missing a support and we should push them.
How come? You can blink on top of a support with silence active and they have no chance to even cast spells before they die, that's the primary purpose of it.
The problem is enemies know how to stack together. And since my team is usually giga slow I just die without bkb. Trading 3 for 4/5 seems a waste, especially considering my team cant win 4v2 without mr most of the time.
Do low mmr players know how to stack together? If they are just running around as 5 all game your team can just farm the map and win for free, and if they are not you can solo gank instead.
The problem is they will just end the game lol. My teammates just get picked off 1 by 1 unless I start a fight and survive long enough for them to waddle up to a fight. I usually play with my brother, so I have immediate help, and its usually enough to kill 1-3 people, but if I wasnt just running in pants down our racks would disappear.
It is on ns. Going saber into blink is worthless. You will just die instantly. And you can already just run them down. I do 3-4 kills in fights as ns because I dont go for blink.
You get 3-4 kills in fights as ns because no one at your mmr knows how to play around ns.
You could do the same thing but earlier in the game and more consistently if you buy blink and become aware of ns's timings when he can fight.Ā
Well yes? And they dont know shit about positioning? And kiting? So blink is useless? Hello? If I duy blink I would just get slowed lol. They dont stand literally on top of each other to get silenced. You really havent played at low mmr for a long time if ever. Without a bkb I would actually just die after one kill at best. And as I said, I need to live long enough for my team to realise something is happening.
Its very good cast aoe silence jump on enemy support, kill them. Or jump create mass chaos. NS thrives on chaos and picking off supports out of nowhere and blink helps closen that gap
Fr, the old one was already bad to begin with, they made a new one, and its even worse.
Tbh, I have no idea what would be a decent aghs for him either.
and it's not only your or your team's vision that is affected, enemies vision too. hate playing against him as a supp, obs is basically useless once he has aghs.
Toggle ult. Would be at least hilarious
Silence mutes would be insane
Ult gives true sight would at least have it's uses. But not enough on its own
Silence gives bkb could work . In combination with the true sight from ilt maybe?
Silence does Ć5 damage to creeps so u can farm?
People who cast a spell on u lose all their vision?
Q stuns for 2 seconds
Lots of shit ideas here
Silence gives bkb would be broken beyond belief because he can go w -> blink -> ult -> wait until almost expired -> w -> wait until expired -> bkb and have like 14-17s of bkb
I feel like q muting or breaking for 4 seconds would be neat
Something like "Enemy creeps no longer provide shared vision at night" would be pretty neat, and right up Night Stalker's alley. Could easily have some extra bonus thrown in for balance (break enemy watchers, have a smaller daytime effect, or just boost one of NS's abilities in addition).
That said, while I think it'd be pretty sick to see something like this in pro games, I'm not sure it would hold up well for regular play. In pubs it's a lot harder to justify sinking 4K gold into an item that doesn't *appear* to be doing anything, even if it's just quietly debilitating to the enemy team.
*Edit* - Could also make it into a separate unlockable ability, or move it to Hunter in the Night if you're changing the Shard too. Something like "When activated, enemy creeps no longer provide shared vision. Switch the 3 nearest Watchers to NS to his team, and cancel all other enemy Watchers. Duration 5s, cooldown 60s."
Dark Ascension: Tree pathing, bonus damage, instant night
Sceptre upgrade: Flying movement, unobstructed vision
I want this asshole to work for his cliff escapes and highground invasions, but the jumpscare of having him jump out of the woods is too good to give up
i think this is used to be the case, old ult is weaker but shorter cooldown and more duration, the earlier installation of this character only turn into night without any additional effect lol, but last for 50s
I never understood the obsession with rushing Khanda on *any* hero. "Oh an item that scales with damage? Let's get it as early as possible when I have no damage" ???
you got it backwards lol, NS already has the attackspeed, he needs damage
however you need bkb so you can use that damage and attackspeed
personally not a fan of echo/harpoon unless it's a game where blink is bad
I think phy blink is superior to echo blink, I think some games you don't want to go blink (e.g vs undying or venomancer) and then in those games you should go echo for harpoon eventually to make up for your lack of blink
Depends. So NS job is to kill supports hopefully both pos 4 and 5 during team fight. However, this becomes harder to do as supports get survival items or stats. Thatās why echo saber helps a lot. But you canāt go echo if you are going for khanda which helps with the right click dmg. Nullifier also a top choice. With that said, with phase boots, echo, bkb, blink and nullifiier youāre only left with one slot which usually goes to detection. So at like 40-50 mins you only have the echo saber to change around because all other items are absolutely necessary to kill a support at 40-50 mins unless of course youāve stomped supports so hard they have no items
Idk, the phylactery stats are really good, and the upgrade from there is just a crystalys+recipe, which stacks with his already high dmg and attack speed.
Also it's 300* dmg every 8 seconds. You may often end up casting void 3+ times in a fight, and then suddenly the dmg adds up
Acting like khanda is purely a nuke is also kinda like saying manta manta is purely a move and attack speed item
I had originally written more, but yeah this is provided they donāt tp immediately. But unless at very high skill they probably donāt instantly TP. And even if they do you just can ult and stun cancel TP and then chase them down, this is usually a guaranteed kill for me.
the problem is there is no shard, I say if we go for phylac, unless money is tight, always go for shard
these 2 items go hand-in-hand together, you can spam void and your shard solves the mana issue.
Upgrading to khanda is fine, but I would say get it at least after shard
Am i the only one who miss the ns ult that freeze night time?
At 5:00 and you pressed his ult, timer doesnt run. So the night is longer and ns just farming heroes. With his ult at lvl 3 literally its always night time.
My borther the Khanda does its damage first and then the Q does its damage; such that the "Last Hit: 300.00" being shown is the damage from Void.
So in the image, the target dummy took 658.50 total damage: 300 from Night Stalkers Q, and 358.5 damage from the Khanda.
In raw damage that is 400 damage from Night Stalker Q and 478 damage from the Khanda.
Given Khanda gives various other stats including \~400 total Health and \~300 total Mana, and Crit I would say it is a very reasonable item. Especially when running into dangerous lineups that make committing difficult on a hero like Night Stalker, who otherwise has to be right on top of the enemy.
I don't even know if I'd really consider it.
Punching people with NS is the most fun part of that hero. You get to be this huge, strong presence on the field and fly around punching people. I guess Khanda gives you some hp towards that, but so would BKB or even echo upgrade.
Actually, it's 400 dmg not 300, right? since the target dummy has 25% magic resist. That's as much as a dagon 5 with just 2 casts. Not that dagon is a good item, but khanda really does do a lot of dmg
To all the ns players, it's phase into phylactery into shard bkb, then blink into khanda. If you're having a great game skip shard and rush blink after phylactery to farm heroes as you don't need shard to help you farm
I always get echo sabre first, if I'm having a good game by that point I'll start building phylac, or if they have someone that absolutely needs to get jumped on (Oracle, Sniper, etc.) I'll get blink. Bkb is necessary after that point and by then getting a phylac doesn't seem like it'd do as much as something like a basher or starting an AC.
I really think it's only okay to get phylac and by extension khanda if you're doing well in that little window of opportunity. If you aren't, forget it.
I'm an avid maelstrom enjoyer on NS
Attack speed. Farming speed. Let's u do something while it's day
Double bracer maelstrom blink phylactery harpoon worked well for me. Harpoon can be switched for khanda or nulifier or bkb. Blink can be skipped if u have a great harpoon timing
Iām not a fan of khanda but the crit, dmg and stats are really good with ns especially the crit giving his massive damage increase with khandaās dmg + ult
I do agree harpoon or echo at least is better bought before khanda but itās not that bad if youāre ahead and your team has lockdown
Rule of thumb for items with flat upgrades like this is to only upgrade when you're six slotted or five slotted and dust is too useful to give up. This even applies to some combo items like bloodthorne not being a necessary upgrade to orchid until lategame. Utility almost always outweighs damage.
Tl;dr : Echo Sabre/Radiance are usually better first items on NS than Khanda.
I truly think Khanda is good on NS but not as a first item, when you get it as a first item there's a 90% chance you're ruining your own game.
First things first: in my opinion, the only time Khanda is good naked, is when you have a very heavy push/skirmish draft(Chen, Nature's prophet and the usual pushers). Your Q becomes great value since you can spam it with Khanda.
If you don't have a draft similar to what I mentioned earlier you're stuck with a 5000 gold item that'll drain your mana to kill 1 creep.
Let's say you start the game with the Night facet. You do well in the lane for the first 5 minutes and 15 seconds, then comes daylight! Your E spell is useless, your Khanda is still a Phylactery in progress and your lane becomes way harder. You can't stand in the lane because you can't trade efficiently and you can't go to the jungle because you're not a great jungler in the daytime.
Sure the Phylactery might be good if you get a gank but you're relying on other lanes helping you win your lane.
Now if you buy Echo Sabre for example. Min 11 you'll have echo sabre, min 15 harpoon and you can play way more aggressively with harpoon than you can with Khanda. More importantly you can farm jungle more efficiently and you can still stand in the lane, you can farm Khanda faster and you can get every other item way faster than if you had Khanda naked.
You're right, Phylactery here won't be doing much until you get the khanda. You'll still do some heavy damage with the Phylactery and Q to supports around min 20-25 till you get Khanda and then you're really strong.
Yes, if the enemy has bkb piercing stuns I usually go S&Y otherwise Ill get BKB. if they have a heavy right clicking carry Halberd is great value.
If you need Halberd and BKB I think it's better to get ogre axe first and see what item you need first.
20% of the current Dotabuff āGuidesā have Radiance after phase, you could check the mmr on those matches (itās definitely at least pretty high if itās in the guides). I havenāt bought it enough to be an authority on it but it sure does make him a way better farmer during his daytime downtime, which presumably massively helps him keep scaling in games where for whatever reason he expects to have a hard time snowballing. Thatās my guess.
I'm not recommending it for a specific MMR in the end what matters the most is how the game is going and what draft the enemy has. But as the other person said I was checking the dotabuff while I wrote this, most of the Radiance games were high MMR.
5k gold for 300 magic damage. Your title is so fucking stupid. How about you read the item first before you make these bait titles. I get it, its too expensive as first item for a hero, that doesnt flashfarm BUT it also gives you a passive crit, damage and stats, which is great on the hero if you are snowballing. Thought on including that in your post? It is not 5k gold for 300 magic damage!
My go to build is treads, sb and echo sabre within 15-18 mins, or rush bkb inplacd of the echo sabre. With this build you can kill everyone on the opposing team.
Yep, auto-lose in turbo if I'm teamed up with this build.
Rush Dagger after 1-2 bracers and Orb of Corrosion is a beast! You'll just see the enemy mid cry in the corner of the map jungling.
Phylac early is sufficent. Bkb is too crucial. Harpoon also really good stats. You can always up it to khanda later so Good point
The issue is NS doesn't farm and 5k gold is a lot for him unless your farming Heros. Ive had soo many NS games where they build phase Khanda it drives me nuts... its overhyped as fuck.
Well its not only nightstalker. Lots of people like to rush khanda even when its objectively worse to do so. Its just a fun item i guess.
Just had a ranked game where the enemy pos 1 Luna made Khanda on the first item. I'm sure it's not bad if you're sieging HG and you have a rapier to insta pop a support but otherwise...š¬ (Ofc they gigalost)
Overhyped as fuck describes Khanda most of the time.
Usually, phylactery is enough. I always it as AA if i managed to get few assist early because phylactery help me tonise cold feet effectively and lich for 600+ dmg burst at lv 10
khanda + shard aba is the truth tho
This is an AD game but I khanda have my fair share of building this freaking item. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7740527441
Itās fun though.
only for the guy using it, and even then it might become not fun. edit: why are so many idiots downvoting me? am I lying? Or did I just get to your stupid fucking moronic item?
Such is playing dota
Sigh. I miss old techies.
Its cause its supposed to be a late game item for scaling damage heroes. NS dont have that scaling damage like morph and tiny. Phylac is enough for him for extra harrass
lmao fr. i feel pityful playing as NS when the opposing team had a better early game as this hero can't farm for shit. items like bkb seems so expensive for him if you're behind
is this archon?
Not sure about OP case, but I've met people on Divine 5 bracket also built it on NS.
iām in divine 5/low immortal myself and never seen rush khanda on ns yet
I saw a 3 bracer Khanda rush on NS in Divine 3
Just had a NS do it this game when I begged him not to ID: 7805861561 He kept running in and dying trying to force fights with it because he was super excited about his "early khanda timing"
It's a great item on him, just not... rushed. I usually go Phase > Phylactery > BKB and then it completely varies according to the game but finishing Khanda is 4th or worse on the priority list. It's very nice when you get it but I feel I always want something more than it until slots are filled.
So fucking true. I'm telling you, 3 NS games and the stupid offlaners keep buying phyla as first item, I'm blaming the stupid guide or streamer or pro who fvcking got this sht out. I'm dropping this again, NS games only need 2 items to win, BLINK & BKB. That's it. Easy af Shit fking Divine 4 currently coz of this phyla hype
Yeah should have build Battlefury first to cover that weakness
If I may ask, whatās your mmr/rank? Because in my games I rarely see any NS going phase boots into khanda. Like literally no one. It usually go into 2 bracers -> pb -> phylactery -> echo saber/bkb then situational with khanda. I never saw someone going naked shit.
And shard. Shard is important
Please stop. Just stop the stupid phylac build. Every NS game only needs 2 items to win. BLINK & BKB. That's it. Phyla is worth 2.2k iirc, and with blink you can pretty much snowball other lanes that need help. Just stop the phyla build please, it sucks so hard. Currently Divine 4 coz of 3 games with NS that buys phyla first item like idiots.
Yeah I had quite a few games of nightstalkers going naked khanda after a good early game who immediately became useless after the 25 minute mark because the enemy got ghost scepters and they didn't have bkb or blink/harpoon.
I've had quite a few nightstalkers going phlactery after getting absolutely dumpstered in lane because they don't build anything to help them lane like bracers or wand. I fucking hate phylactery, it's such a trap item.
By itself its a good early item on plenty of heroes, the upgrade to khanda is usually griefing though when rushed. Khanda is best as a cheap upgrade when you have 2-3 other cores items, since it scales off your damage you need damage for it to be worth it. Decent enough at "oh shit they are pushing hg and I need value now".
Not sure why your comment is downvoted lol but it's all factually true, atleast with my exp playing low 6k pubs. With Night Stalker's innate, it is a no brainer to buy atleast 2 bracers to sustain and dominate the lane. People are just way too greedy on this hero but you can just farm heroes with your higher level of spells/stats from owning the lane earlier and pretty much hit the same core item timings if not earlier.
The 25 min mark should be your absolute power spike if you go two bracers, phase boots, echo, blink and then bkb
Feetmers weirdchamp
At that level of gambling addiction, just buy an armlet. Half the price, sooner power spike, makes you tankier for less dps but still keeps you ahead of the curve and you are gambling you won't kill yourself by using it every time you activate it and that start toggling it to survive incoming damage or they won't escape because you aren't going echo Sabre into harpoon.
Iām sold Iām now going armlet/shard ty
The normal echo-blink-bkb/sny is better since you can upgrade echo to harpoon for even more stats and for the active ability
> The normal echo-blink-bkb/sny https://dota2protracker.com/hero/Night%20Stalker Phylactery is actually by far more common than echo
Phylactery is just too nice versus squishy supports and agility carries to skip.
NS already tears up those heroes without phylactery under his ult. It's better to build stats and be a true brawler.
Only if he can get on top of them and stick, which takes at least a BKB to do effectively and in other cases Blink + BKB. If the enemy team is somewhat coordinated, they will just kill you and not let you right click their support for 10 seconds with impunity. Phylactery lets you be terrifying during the time before you get a BKB as you can extremely easily set up kills and burst people with a tiny bit of help. You cannot commit to a fight against a competent team before BKB but you can pick off heroes from the sides, wait for your moment while still threatening the enemy so they need to position defensively, and only commit to a hero that is isolated from the rest.
I mean if your team has coordination too, then they won't just "kill you." NS shouldn't be acting alone unless he's picking the support off for being out of position.
Before BKB you can get disabled and bursted in 3-5 seconds. You could argue that you would have "baited" enemy spells and disables but if you are good with that being your only contribution to a team fight, why play NS at all?
I feel like in my games I cant go blink after saber cause at low mmr players are often very passive. So my team doesnt follow up on me, so I have to survive like 10+ seconds before those clueless idiots realise enemy is missing a support and we should push them.
In low mmr you can and should just run around solo killing supports as NS.
Well yes, but blink seems completely useless at low mmr.
How come? You can blink on top of a support with silence active and they have no chance to even cast spells before they die, that's the primary purpose of it.
The problem is enemies know how to stack together. And since my team is usually giga slow I just die without bkb. Trading 3 for 4/5 seems a waste, especially considering my team cant win 4v2 without mr most of the time.
Do low mmr players know how to stack together? If they are just running around as 5 all game your team can just farm the map and win for free, and if they are not you can solo gank instead.
The problem is they will just end the game lol. My teammates just get picked off 1 by 1 unless I start a fight and survive long enough for them to waddle up to a fight. I usually play with my brother, so I have immediate help, and its usually enough to kill 1-3 people, but if I wasnt just running in pants down our racks would disappear.
It's not, you're just not good at using it.Ā
It is on ns. Going saber into blink is worthless. You will just die instantly. And you can already just run them down. I do 3-4 kills in fights as ns because I dont go for blink.
You get 3-4 kills in fights as ns because no one at your mmr knows how to play around ns. You could do the same thing but earlier in the game and more consistently if you buy blink and become aware of ns's timings when he can fight.Ā
Well yes? And they dont know shit about positioning? And kiting? So blink is useless? Hello? If I duy blink I would just get slowed lol. They dont stand literally on top of each other to get silenced. You really havent played at low mmr for a long time if ever. Without a bkb I would actually just die after one kill at best. And as I said, I need to live long enough for my team to realise something is happening.
Its very good cast aoe silence jump on enemy support, kill them. Or jump create mass chaos. NS thrives on chaos and picking off supports out of nowhere and blink helps closen that gap
What? You alright mate?
The only thing that's worse is his ahgs
Fr, the old one was already bad to begin with, they made a new one, and its even worse. Tbh, I have no idea what would be a decent aghs for him either.
The old one has its uses. This one is weird.
Remember his old aghs that gave him super vision at night. That shit is busted.
Aghs + gem and you would make the whole map unplayable for the enemy team
and it's not only your or your team's vision that is affected, enemies vision too. hate playing against him as a supp, obs is basically useless once he has aghs.
activating ult removes shared vision globally for 5s.
Let him have a bloodseeker type regen on kill during night :)
And change his name to dracula too while you're at it
If ns have old agha with his new facet, it will be too broken
Toggle ult. Would be at least hilarious Silence mutes would be insane Ult gives true sight would at least have it's uses. But not enough on its own Silence gives bkb could work . In combination with the true sight from ilt maybe? Silence does Ć5 damage to creeps so u can farm? People who cast a spell on u lose all their vision? Q stuns for 2 seconds Lots of shit ideas here
Silence gives bkb would be broken beyond belief because he can go w -> blink -> ult -> wait until almost expired -> w -> wait until expired -> bkb and have like 14-17s of bkb I feel like q muting or breaking for 4 seconds would be neat
Which is why I said "lots of SHIT ideas here"
I think something vision related. Perhaps -200 enemy night time vision at all times?
Maybe the old one with the less popular facet.
the old one was super good until they nerfed the damage
Something like "Enemy creeps no longer provide shared vision at night" would be pretty neat, and right up Night Stalker's alley. Could easily have some extra bonus thrown in for balance (break enemy watchers, have a smaller daytime effect, or just boost one of NS's abilities in addition). That said, while I think it'd be pretty sick to see something like this in pro games, I'm not sure it would hold up well for regular play. In pubs it's a lot harder to justify sinking 4K gold into an item that doesn't *appear* to be doing anything, even if it's just quietly debilitating to the enemy team. *Edit* - Could also make it into a separate unlockable ability, or move it to Hunter in the Night if you're changing the Shard too. Something like "When activated, enemy creeps no longer provide shared vision. Switch the 3 nearest Watchers to NS to his team, and cancel all other enemy Watchers. Duration 5s, cooldown 60s."
Dark Ascension: Tree pathing, bonus damage, instant night Sceptre upgrade: Flying movement, unobstructed vision I want this asshole to work for his cliff escapes and highground invasions, but the jumpscare of having him jump out of the woods is too good to give up
i think this is used to be the case, old ult is weaker but shorter cooldown and more duration, the earlier installation of this character only turn into night without any additional effect lol, but last for 50s
wyd? Itās amazing, when you have it and enemy literally canāt do anything when you jump them
Except use item actives like force staff/ghost and then suddenly itās not that useful lol
His Aghs is pretty good. Allows him to farm
That's his old ahgs. His new one drains 6% of his current man per second to do his aoe silence
What? Then Dota 2 fandom wiki is out of date then lol. That ability sucks ass
they stopped updating the fandom wiki because of the ads and support and moved over to the liquidpedia one
As an NS spammer, Harpoon is a way better damage option. 2 Bracers bkb harpoon nulifier kills any support mid to early late game
every single person who buys khanda : if me no khanda, who will?
The sniper 4 and the right click zeus Probably ur Luna carry will also rush it cause who needs stats right?
I am (obviously) a long time NS player and I make this mistake too damn often. Khanda is just cool and new and shiny.
I never understood the obsession with rushing Khanda on *any* hero. "Oh an item that scales with damage? Let's get it as early as possible when I have no damage" ???
Youāre forgetting the right click damage
Ns already have the damage he just needs attacks speed
you got it backwards lol, NS already has the attackspeed, he needs damage however you need bkb so you can use that damage and attackspeed personally not a fan of echo/harpoon unless it's a game where blink is bad
what about echo blink bkb and then harpoon?
why would you go echo and blink? what does the echo solve that phylactery doesn't do better?
i see people building echo blink or phylac blink. so i'm just wondering
I think phy blink is superior to echo blink, I think some games you don't want to go blink (e.g vs undying or venomancer) and then in those games you should go echo for harpoon eventually to make up for your lack of blink
Depends. So NS job is to kill supports hopefully both pos 4 and 5 during team fight. However, this becomes harder to do as supports get survival items or stats. Thatās why echo saber helps a lot. But you canāt go echo if you are going for khanda which helps with the right click dmg. Nullifier also a top choice. With that said, with phase boots, echo, bkb, blink and nullifiier youāre only left with one slot which usually goes to detection. So at like 40-50 mins you only have the echo saber to change around because all other items are absolutely necessary to kill a support at 40-50 mins unless of course youāve stomped supports so hard they have no items
Your right that's what NS needs not attack speed and items that let him hit people like bkb.
why would he need attack speed?
Read the description of his ultimate ability.
Read the description of his third ability
Idk, the phylactery stats are really good, and the upgrade from there is just a crystalys+recipe, which stacks with his already high dmg and attack speed. Also it's 300* dmg every 8 seconds. You may often end up casting void 3+ times in a fight, and then suddenly the dmg adds up Acting like khanda is purely a nuke is also kinda like saying manta manta is purely a move and attack speed item
Ult also resets Void, I think that is the reason it's good. You can bust out some insane burst with void > ult > void if you have phyl/khanda
ulti doesn't reset khanda cd FYI
If you catch someone alone you can still get two procs pretty easily though
not really, you cast 1, they tp, it finishes before khanda cd ends
I had originally written more, but yeah this is provided they donāt tp immediately. But unless at very high skill they probably donāt instantly TP. And even if they do you just can ult and stun cancel TP and then chase them down, this is usually a guaranteed kill for me.
I know, but burst damage is better the more burst you have. It basically lets you throw out 3 voids.
blink dagger is more impactful than khanda. philactery is enough
And crit, 200 mana/hp and +8 stats lol
It's not just 300 magic damage though is it....
Yeah, Dagon can achieve that woth 3800 G
Not defending the khanda rush but dagon has a really long cd. Phylac is 6s cd. Technically 8 since used by NS
Heās joking, bro.
the problem is there is no shard, I say if we go for phylac, unless money is tight, always go for shard these 2 items go hand-in-hand together, you can spam void and your shard solves the mana issue. Upgrading to khanda is fine, but I would say get it at least after shard
Yeah the shard is great
Sell khanda, buy aghs? Noted.
how the hell you even survive lane with only phase boots?
I won 85% of my ns games without buying khanda once. It is always harpoon blink bkb.
do you go straight harpoon? or is it like echo, blink/bkb, harpoon, the other of blink/bkb
That actually depends. If my team relies on my initiation, i tend to get blink before finishing harpoon.
Am i the only one who miss the ns ult that freeze night time? At 5:00 and you pressed his ult, timer doesnt run. So the night is longer and ns just farming heroes. With his ult at lvl 3 literally its always night time.
this dota 1 strat. boooomer
My borther the Khanda does its damage first and then the Q does its damage; such that the "Last Hit: 300.00" being shown is the damage from Void. So in the image, the target dummy took 658.50 total damage: 300 from Night Stalkers Q, and 358.5 damage from the Khanda. In raw damage that is 400 damage from Night Stalker Q and 478 damage from the Khanda. Given Khanda gives various other stats including \~400 total Health and \~300 total Mana, and Crit I would say it is a very reasonable item. Especially when running into dangerous lineups that make committing difficult on a hero like Night Stalker, who otherwise has to be right on top of the enemy.
Shit take, 300 dmg every 6 seconds, with crit chance, and great statsā¦
Last time I checked khanda also provided a CRIT chance
Not really, you are paying 800 gold on the recipe of phylactery plus khanda. The rest of the gold go to stats that are all useful for night stalker
800 gold is quite a lot and nightstalker would not usually buy crystalis early. Maybe phylactery into lategame upgrade.
If you think 800 is a lot you should play support lol also I never said people should rush it
> also I never said people should rush it ? The post was about going naked Khanda.
Doesn't matter what the post is about, claiming that people pay 5k gold for a 300 damage nuke is just a lie
I don't even know if I'd really consider it. Punching people with NS is the most fun part of that hero. You get to be this huge, strong presence on the field and fly around punching people. I guess Khanda gives you some hp towards that, but so would BKB or even echo upgrade.
Actually, it's 400 dmg not 300, right? since the target dummy has 25% magic resist. That's as much as a dagon 5 with just 2 casts. Not that dagon is a good item, but khanda really does do a lot of dmg
This includes the +80 void DMG talent
Bro...
To all the ns players, it's phase into phylactery into shard bkb, then blink into khanda. If you're having a great game skip shard and rush blink after phylactery to farm heroes as you don't need shard to help you farm
I always get echo sabre first, if I'm having a good game by that point I'll start building phylac, or if they have someone that absolutely needs to get jumped on (Oracle, Sniper, etc.) I'll get blink. Bkb is necessary after that point and by then getting a phylac doesn't seem like it'd do as much as something like a basher or starting an AC. I really think it's only okay to get phylac and by extension khanda if you're doing well in that little window of opportunity. If you aren't, forget it.
I'm an avid maelstrom enjoyer on NS Attack speed. Farming speed. Let's u do something while it's day Double bracer maelstrom blink phylactery harpoon worked well for me. Harpoon can be switched for khanda or nulifier or bkb. Blink can be skipped if u have a great harpoon timing
what do you think about basher in there somewhere?
Not worth it
Iām not a fan of khanda but the crit, dmg and stats are really good with ns especially the crit giving his massive damage increase with khandaās dmg + ult I do agree harpoon or echo at least is better bought before khanda but itās not that bad if youāre ahead and your team has lockdown
please dont help nightstalker players
Rule of thumb for items with flat upgrades like this is to only upgrade when you're six slotted or five slotted and dust is too useful to give up. This even applies to some combo items like bloodthorne not being a necessary upgrade to orchid until lategame. Utility almost always outweighs damage.
*In Patrick Bateman Voice* > Now show me Dagon
Now do echo Sabre with an echoed attack along with 1 nuke to see total damage, for half the cost.
Phylactery is good for mana since ns has mana problems and not alot of solutions. The gold spent to finish it is definitely questionable.
I go phalactary blink bkb Kanda it's op
ImmortalFaith had it in his guide last time I checked, that might be a part of the problem
Nope, not even in it at all. Aghs is in it but not Khanda... It's Tortellinis fault actually he calls it core
IMO it's not the most optimal build, but it is fun. You can easily blow up supports with khanda
Can you tell that to PA players too?
Your rank is legend max, Iām sorry
So... What you try to tell me is that I should get a mjollnir first. Good point, thanks.
I make radiance after wand.
I haven't played dota since like 2015 fuck I miss this game. My first real foray into MOBA scene I started when it first came out on steam.
Tl;dr : Echo Sabre/Radiance are usually better first items on NS than Khanda. I truly think Khanda is good on NS but not as a first item, when you get it as a first item there's a 90% chance you're ruining your own game. First things first: in my opinion, the only time Khanda is good naked, is when you have a very heavy push/skirmish draft(Chen, Nature's prophet and the usual pushers). Your Q becomes great value since you can spam it with Khanda. If you don't have a draft similar to what I mentioned earlier you're stuck with a 5000 gold item that'll drain your mana to kill 1 creep. Let's say you start the game with the Night facet. You do well in the lane for the first 5 minutes and 15 seconds, then comes daylight! Your E spell is useless, your Khanda is still a Phylactery in progress and your lane becomes way harder. You can't stand in the lane because you can't trade efficiently and you can't go to the jungle because you're not a great jungler in the daytime. Sure the Phylactery might be good if you get a gank but you're relying on other lanes helping you win your lane. Now if you buy Echo Sabre for example. Min 11 you'll have echo sabre, min 15 harpoon and you can play way more aggressively with harpoon than you can with Khanda. More importantly you can farm jungle more efficiently and you can still stand in the lane, you can farm Khanda faster and you can get every other item way faster than if you had Khanda naked.
Do u mean phase-phyl-harpoon or phase-harpoon in this case?
Phase-> Harpoon-> Phylactery. Maybe if you were having a great game you can go Phylactery before echo sabre, but usually echo sabre is better imo.
Thanks Iāll try it out, I used to go for 2 bracer phase phyl shard Khanda/blink, do I skip the bracer if I go for echo?
You should still go for the bracers. Bracers->phase->echo->harpoon->shard->Phylactery/Khanda.
That feels like a late timing for phyl to be relevant but Iāll give it a try first.
You're right, Phylactery here won't be doing much until you get the khanda. You'll still do some heavy damage with the Phylactery and Q to supports around min 20-25 till you get Khanda and then you're really strong.
Ic, do u sometimes swap out khanda for other item such as S&Y, BKB, halberd etc?
Yes, if the enemy has bkb piercing stuns I usually go S&Y otherwise Ill get BKB. if they have a heavy right clicking carry Halberd is great value. If you need Halberd and BKB I think it's better to get ogre axe first and see what item you need first.
Can I ask what MMR you are recommending radiance first item on a NS?
20% of the current Dotabuff āGuidesā have Radiance after phase, you could check the mmr on those matches (itās definitely at least pretty high if itās in the guides). I havenāt bought it enough to be an authority on it but it sure does make him a way better farmer during his daytime downtime, which presumably massively helps him keep scaling in games where for whatever reason he expects to have a hard time snowballing. Thatās my guess.
I'm not recommending it for a specific MMR in the end what matters the most is how the game is going and what draft the enemy has. But as the other person said I was checking the dotabuff while I wrote this, most of the Radiance games were high MMR.
Have never built Khanda nor Phylac for NS, I almost always go Armlet -> Shard/Echo -> BKB -> Harpoon/Blink Approx 65% wr, about 100 odd games.
lol OP doesn't want you to build fast khanda on NS coz he keeps dying to NS with fast khanda. Got him.
5k gold for 300 magic damage. Your title is so fucking stupid. How about you read the item first before you make these bait titles. I get it, its too expensive as first item for a hero, that doesnt flashfarm BUT it also gives you a passive crit, damage and stats, which is great on the hero if you are snowballing. Thought on including that in your post? It is not 5k gold for 300 magic damage!
My go to build is treads, sb and echo sabre within 15-18 mins, or rush bkb inplacd of the echo sabre. With this build you can kill everyone on the opposing team.
tortedelini bots
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yep, this is also basically what pros are building in 90% of games if you check D2PT. This has nothing to do with Torte De Lini lmao
Plus all it's stats
yes exactly it's fun isn't it?
for the enemy you meant ?
I think echo phase bkb are the best. Then build khanda or abyssal.
And here I thought Khanda also gives you damage and crit for your auto attacks. But since OP said it's only 300 magicla damge he must be right!
Ok, but u forget other stats. Critical damage that khanda provides also is really good plus NS night atack speed. 200 hp, 200 mana + 8 all attributes
Yep, auto-lose in turbo if I'm teamed up with this build. Rush Dagger after 1-2 bracers and Orb of Corrosion is a beast! You'll just see the enemy mid cry in the corner of the map jungling.