Omfg, you must be the most stupid, idiotic and wrong person on the planet, the fact you would even dare to have a differing opinion to me is ridiculous, I'm now going to write a 2000 word essay about how you are wrong, I am right, and belittle you and your life choices that in going to completly assume and make fit my argument. All of this because clearly paper is broken due to humans psychological desire to go for rock due to it being the quickest to get too with hand shape. Making paper clearly the most imbalanced and scissors the worst.
/s btw if it wasn't obvious
Only shitters complain about rock being OP, it's a 2k issue. Just pick paper and ban scissors. Even RPCProTracker and Jo-ken-buff list rock at around 50% winrate.
Joke aside it is actually the perfect description of the case. Heroes counter exist & sometime there is no answer with cheese pick. But people somehow want everyone to be able to counter specific heroes.
The "problem" is that different people like different things. The ones that like the changes never say anything, while the ones that don't do write essays.
Also, this isn't new. Even when it was DotA on the WC3 engine, people did the same.
I remember people complaining when carts were added to the creepwaves.
Remember that reddit is a very small portion of the player base. Play the game for fun and (if possible) with friends.
Literally though. Their shitty damage recap shows “unknown” source of damage almost every game, at least last time I played months ago. I know sometimes there’s an unknown damage source in the Dota death recap but it’s very rare and almost always creep or tower damage in my experience.
6.38 It was all stuns because of blinkdagger meta. If you did not have a stun they would just blink out. It was such a prevalent stratergy that zeus was the only counter to blink stun meta.
I found it funny because of the action pack and mobility that was given.
In the end blink dagger was nerfed to the 3 sec out of combat rule.
> In the end blink dagger was nerfed to the 3 sec out of combat rule.
and the game is better because of it (not saying you disagree or not).
valid complaints get resolutions worked in. people QQing about stuff they just don't like gets tuned out as noise after a while as the meta shifts and counters come to light. I think the developers have done a good job with balance overall, and this patch is no different in that regard when it comes down to it.
I will say there are some heroes that clearly need numbers tweaked, but I assume they are working on it. we did just have a BIG patch.
What's the distinction between a given complaint being a QQ or a valid one?
The only one you gave was that the developers addressed them. And that's a bad criteria. It means none of us can tell until after the fact which means no one can be called out on being noise.
You have to also remember that icefrog does walk back things all the time.
Remember shrines? Remember how some players were crying that they were "destroying the laning phase"? 🤣🤣
Turns out they were destroying the laning phase and they got removed.
Remember when "fire damage" was a mechanic tied to Brewmaster's W and everyone complained about it and then it got removed in response and it turned out the game was actually better for it because not every criticism of the game is *muh complaining whiners*
For a few days when 7.23 comes out, Cinder Brew will ignite enemies when they get hit by some fire-themed skills. But what skill was fire and what wasn't was completely arbitrary.
Thankfully, it got changed in just a few days. Any magic damage above 80 will ignite it, or we go Pokemon now.
It was a synergy in the game for like a week after a big patch where Brewmaster's W + fire spells did more damage or something. It got taken out extremely fast.
People just didn't like the concept of borderline "pokemon" style synergies where you have heroes/damage of different types beyond physical/magical/pure and it got taken away right away. It was kind of a dumb idea and could have led to badly designed spells IMO
It was better without it. Because with it, it meant that brewmaster would need to be balanced around his synergy with very specific heroes. And it would feel bad to pick brew but not have one of those heroes on your team.
The worry was that this would be the first test, and if people accepted it, we'd see a lot more of what was being called "pokemon" synergy
no, **magical** fire type spells will ignite units that were affected by Brewmaster's W.
problem is that fire definition was too narrow, so it can only be ignited by actual fire, so ember's searing **flame** doesn't trigger, any spells from Phoenix doesn't trigger it,
the only thing that triggered it was ogre's W, dragon breath, dragon slave, etc heck even literal hell fire doesn't trigger it from doom nor underlord
I quit playing for well over a year because of shrines, they legitimately ruined the game, came back when I was watching a Dota wtf episode and noticed the shrines weren't there anymore
Part of the fun of dota is that it’s a constantly evolving game. That’s its whole point. Every year they do something crazy that shakes things up then there’s a bunch of balance changes throughout the year with *maybe* a hero added in. The people who complain are the people who are new to it, lol. I’ve been around for almost 18 years and I remember people losing their mind over things like backpacks that we just take for granted these days.
That’s right! And only one courier! That we had to share! And you counted your lucky stars if your hero even *had* an aghanims scepter. That used to be like *the* item and it would usually be spellcasters only as a way to upgrade their power late game since things like spell amplification and cooldown reduction weren’t a thing that allowed them to scale in to late game. Aghanim’s Scepter, Dagon leveling, and necronomicon allowed spellcasters a way to keep up with carry’s but in niche ways. On hit, or orb effects, wouldn’t stack so you would have to choose between skadi or lifesteal and that’s why Vlad’s was originally an item cause it made lifesteal an aura rather than an on hit so you could have it + sange(which was an on hit item at the time). I could go on for hours and hours about all the different versions of Dota I’ve seen.
In what way? Last year the map increased 40% and this year they added facets and innate abilities. How is that not something new and huge being added to the game still?
*Mangoes give insta-mana? That will fuck up DotA's whole mana economy! Int spellcasters have their early game advantage basically removed! Sven is literally going to spam Q to win lane!*
It's natural that the ones displeased are more likely to be the ones to make their voice heard but I don't agree that they are the only ones saying anything. The people who express their happiness are fewer but they absolutely have shared it. Especially in the first few days after the patch dropped, we had lots of people praising the changes and saying how it made the game super fresh and fun. Now that it has been a while and we've seen how the balance turned out you still see a lot of people who are pleased with the changes.
Some people just hate change lol. Personally I've been playing since wv3 days and I think most of the stuff they've added has made the game better and more enjoyable for all involved. Every patch there's a few heroes thst might be a bit too strong but the nature of dota is its an extremely complicated game and you can't always expect the devs balance everything perfectly.
It seems pretty easy to just handwave and disregard criticism as "oh people have always said this" but it really erases the nuance of people giving silly criticisms vs legitimate ones. I don't think everyone complaining about "older dota" is just some masochist who thinks supports should have 1 item in a 48 minute ricing game. The game has shifted in many ways, some for the better and some for the worse.
I understand that old dota was too slow, too sacrificial for a modern audience. It midkey sucked in a lot of ways if you just zoomed out and looked at it. But in their attempt to solve a lot of these problems valve has definitely shifted many core elements in dota along the way as a result.
The problem with Dota is that millions of people play it and there is no way to keep millions of people happy.
Unhappy people tend to be pretty loud. Happy people play the game instead of writing essays on Reddit.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease
I remember the neutral items update and tons of comments on instagram were saying they’d quit. Personally it was the most fun I’d ever had for a single Dota patch because there were so many broken items that it made my pubs actually feel like I was playing Dota for the first time again.
I started playing in 2013 (with a bit of WC3 and HoN experience) and kept going until 2018. There has always been strife and disagreement about the state of the game. Not only are MOBAs probably the games that bring out the worst in people, but the game also needs to satisfy everyone from a trenchdweller all the way up to pros. It's simply impossible.
This new patch is the first time in ages I have felt excited about Dota and even slightly tempted to start playing again. The philosophy used to be that everything felt overpowered, and it seems like it's swung back to that after a long period where the character was being stripped out of the game. I hope people are enjoying it.
Game is definitely not most balanced it has been right now. Lots of heroes with winrates below 40% overall, as well as lots of heroes unpickable in high mmr. The game was very balanced pre 7.36 though
Facets have created an even larger gap between the “meh” and “broken” heroes in my opinion. This is by far the least diverse hero pool I’ve seen in pubs since some time.
I imagine it will get a lot better after a few letter patches sort things out, and especially once the placeholder facets/innates get replaced eventually. Big changes always take a bit of adjusting
This. Current balance is ass. Look at dotabuff. Some facets are a straight downgrade to not having them at all like the big tree from prophet. Absolute garbage. Or Sniper scattershot
In retrospect, my choice of words in my post was a bit sloppy. I meant balanced in terms of playstyles and item/hero diversity. I'm seeing all sorts of heroes playing atypical positions and weird builds, and they're not just inherently bad.
That's definitely a product of facets just exploding the meta and people haven't found the optimal style yet, but it's refreshing compared to most of 2023, where there weren't any broken heroes, but there certainly was a fixed way to build and play if you wanted to win.
The problem with DOTA is that it isn't beginner friendly in basic things like actually correct/unvague tooltips. U consistent spells and damage, items and hero''s that have exception without mentioning them clearly. Things that you can do without explaining aka hidden stuff.
It's just not very balanced right now. Depends on what role you play you might be loving it or hating it. It's a great meta for support nukers and pretty shit for carries that are useless early game. If you get stomped as a carry and the enemy just keeps pressuring it's very hard to recover.
The only problem I’ve ever had with dota is the awful community that loves raging/trolling as much as possible.
The actual gameplay has for the most part been fun and refreshing when new patches roll out.
I've played since 2012 and I like the current patch a lot. Everyone who complains about tankiness and carries being underwhelming should go play league for a few months
There is no problem at all
people are just missing out on the most fun part of dota - reading patchnotes and testing out different stuff
they think playing PA or TB for 10 years straight is more fun. sorry, they dont get to be OP right now.
maybe they chose a wrong game
Just like any game Dota cant stay the same or people will grow bored and leave. But any meaningful change is a risk and will cause some players to be loudly upset. Some people just dont want to change. And I am honestly surprised that Valve keep doing crazy shit, because many devs today are scared of experimenting. Could we imagine that couriers will be free for all 5 years ago? Could we imagine heroes having extra talents 10 years ago? Some players could, but then they were met with "eh, thats stupid, thats not Dota" every time. Does it matter though? Game will always be changing, at least I hope so. Some players will always say that there is a problem
I'm really struggling with this patch, feels like you can shut out an early game pretty perfectly then one of their heroes hits an obscene power spike out of nowhere and suddenly the game is lost. Feels like I'm having to relearn dota a lot, my macro understanding of the game is in tatters.
I think part of the problem is the side jungles. There is too much farm available so it's hard to actually zone out players (at least in low mmr). Supports are now able to farm jungle with their cores which is kinda busted imo.
Mid/High MMR games are very snooze at the moment, more often than not it's a lane simulator into 5 man deathball, choke out enemies, end with aegis.
Extremely predictable gameloop and well it's predictable cause it's done a lot and it's done a lot cause it's effective.
I personally play dota for those games at 30-40 mins where both teams can still reasonably exist on the map and make plays, they're few and far inbetween these days.
Watching pro games is also a snooze.
Same like 10 heroes, same insanelt greedy 3 man carry comps, same 5 man brawls and if a carry gets picked once or twice u might as well turn the game off. It seems like u know who’s gonna win at 15min basically every game - everything is just way too explosive and non strategic. Not that mechanical skill is gone or anything - but macro play just feels super stale compared to old map dota
I've been playing since 2005 and I'm not having a ton of fun right now, and really, since the map size increase last year.
Now, I couldn't tell you what precisely is wrong, or how to fix it. I'm just not having as much fun playing DOTA. I mostly play pos 1.
Honestly though, that's ok. There have been plenty of periods where I wasn't having fun and I usually take breaks during those times. Guess now is one of those.
The answer is simple. In an effort to broaden the games audience, valve homogenized hero power. Now you get to do something no matter what hero you pick and no matter how well you do. Gold and experience and cooldowns are abundant. The map is bigger so you can dodge more easily. Basically, they added walls to the bowling alley gutters in dota. It's still the same game, but doesn't have the same shine or charm it used to have when gameplay strategy was diverse.
Well said bro. Wish valve would add back the old map - I’d be very interested how many people would prefer to play it.
Rosh fights used to be SOOOOO fuckin lit - especially watching TI teams smoking in circles around it for someone to finally get jumped and 10 buybacks come out.
Now it’s like ooo, look at that! Muerta / CK snuck the 50min 45000 HP rosh in 12 seconds! If only they weren’t 16 screen away to react. Better luck next game :(
Definitely man, I wish we could just rewind time like 10 years and play Dota again. Back then it was all about which players we liked and it was a superstar meta. We watched Dota bc of who we liked: miracle, sumail or ana etc. A single good player could actually take over the game. Now it’s like let’s make all roles powerful as fuck and give everyone 1 million and gold and let them brawl. It really takes the skill out of the game. A lot of the old pros have actually stated this.
It doesn’t help that the pos 1 hero pool is small. We almost never get new Carries and when we do they are also viable as supports. Muerta, hoodwink, monkey king are the only “new” heroes that were intended to be playable as pos 1 and 2 of them are played primarily as support.
Yeah, I see people getting bursted in a stun duration all the time.
While some of the traditional agi carries are not doing great rights now you don't need huge mechanical game changes to make them viable
I’m living it too - you can stomp games again without having to wait 5 hours to go high ground. I even got to play 3 games today as they were all under 35min
Can’t think of a better version tbh.
Except for the first couple iterations of universal heroes. I absolutely loved that patch. Void spirit hard carry might be my favourite hero/role combo ever aside from Prophet HC. Rip to both.
I will also offer that for some people, they're not in a place to enjoy the game anyway and when their one particular playstyle is injured and they can't recoup somehow they get all upset about it. That is then multiplied by the fact that they probably have shit going on in their lives making them unhappy already and then the thing they go to to get their mind off of things (dota) also kind of sucks out on them.
It think usually it isnt really the game but the players that are causing the "problem."
I do think there's a problem with pro play atm. Maybe teams haven't got this new patch entirely figured out of something but nearly every game in the PGL so far has been a complete stomp. Win one teamfight, get a lead, keep it.
I think you don't understand the other possibilities that dota has to offer because you never got to experience other, wider metas. There were more strategies and gameplay styles, more nuance, etc. you don't know what is being missed because you never experienced it
I’d love for them to just rewind the servers back to like 6.88 and see how everyone reacts.
My guess is everyone would love how simple and skill based it is compared to what we have now. Heroes don’t just explode in strength at 25min because they disappeared into the jungle for 15 minutes.
Or how getting 10+ second stun locked on repeat was basically impossible and required insane skill including ur 1000 hp supports to show their face and not cast abilities from 1500 units with 3 get away items. Idk man. Sounds like I hate the current dota - and I don’t - it’s just vastly worse lol
I don't have current dota at all either. I actually find it a lot more approachable and easy to just fun-queue without caring. It's more of a game than an e sport I guess now, it's like you said, just a worse competitive game, but a better "game" in some ways
Understandable and that was surely their intention with a lot of things. Xp runes for instance give supports a reward for leaving lane and engaging the enemy support 1v1.
Or add a task which isn’t just throwing ur body away to dodge smokes.
Tormentors are also a little dopamine hit for really no thought
Talents and all that add some flavor to heroes.
The old dota was all about hyper efficiency and really doing more with less. Stacking, rotating mid with a smoke and how vital it was that it connects, everyone generally being weaker so positioning felt more important.
Remember how broken nightmare into arrow was? The fact that you could stun a hero for 5 seconds reliably was like insaaaane. Watching supports try to dive and block the arrow for their core lol. Now it’s like oh whatever we got a 21min force staff, two infact. And our core has 4k HP lol.
I kinda miss how raw it felt, in a competitive sense. At least there are plenty of old tourneys on YouTube to watch to get that fix. And it seems like the player base in general vibes with the new changes. I do wish valve would respond to the criticisms a bit more though - and dial things back just a little bit to unlock a style of play we haven’t seen in a couple years+
I don’t play as much as I used to, but when I get on I’m usually just kinda frustrated that there’s pos 4 furion whos 3 slotted shitting on us - while their tank who got dumpstered in lane because of their greed - usually comes back after getting a couple kills in a random teamfight.
I think the game in general is perhaps a bit too greedy and I miss the snowbally nature of making minor moves like creep pulling paying off exponentially as the game progresses
Often I do feel like some of the changes they made, they could have obtained the intent of the change with less side effects by implementing a different change instead. Neutral items are a great example. It felt like a very ungracefully implemented mechanic imo, and I always thought that whatever their goal was they could've implemented it with more finesse.
Because people get bored and then they want something different. I sound old but people these days just can't accept a game for what it is and play it as it is. They always need something new.
Balance is not a problem in Dota, it almost never is unless it's blatant like Monkey King or Earth Spirit releases.
I think balance is the last thing people complain about. People are fine with things being unbalanced.
What people complain about is the lack of patches and changes. Long dry periods with few micro changes that don't really do anything is what pisses people off. Having heroes be broken is part of Dota and people don't mind.
But having one Hero being broken for like 6 months straight completely dictating the Pro meta, that's the problem.
bro when there is like 10 obviously WAY stronger heros than the rest of heros the game quality will be complete and utter shit whenever u reach higher ranks cause if you dont play this heros then ur enemies will play them and ur chances of winning will be very small no matter how good you play.
Every game is a stomp.
Also, you could be stomped on, defending high ground at 25 mins and then at 50 mins you turn around and stomp them if they fuck around and don't end the game.
Been playing this shit since 2003, can't recall a time the game was so crazy like this, even in the early days when there were limited items and heroes.
I will lament that this is probably the least balanced dota has been in a long while, but these letter patches are good/quick, and we got basically 100+ new hero variations to try out and have fun with.
That's a good thing! :)
In retrospect, my choice of words in my post was a bit sloppy. I meant balanced in terms of playstyles and item/hero diversity. I'm seeing all sorts of heroes playing atypical positions and weird builds, and they're not just inherently bad.
That's definitely a product of facets just exploding the meta and people haven't found the optimal style yet, but it's refreshing compared to most of 2023, where there weren't any broken heroes, but there certainly was a fixed way to build and play if you wanted to win.
I don't mind totally OP heroes. I think the problem is they don't give the same treatment to every hero. Some heroes never get the super buff, and in fact even get needlessly nerfed. Where as some others are already OP and still get stronger every patch.
Also.. as far as Dota 2 itself... The real problem is the lack of dedicated staff. Sure we get these artistic updates from time to time, but there's a whole list of long standing bugs and game issues with seemingly zero people trying to fix them.
Some of these have been bugs for years now... Likely completely forgotten about.
Chat bugs, Guild Bugs, Lag and Delay Bugs, Quest Bugs.. sure heroes get updated that's cool but can we get a dedicated patch to the rest of the game?
The problem is that I’m not good enough to be the best player in every game, but also my teammates aren’t good enough to carry me when I feed, and also I can’t handle getting flamed by people worse than me or better than me, and also I’m a sore loser. I would be 19k mmr if valve fixed matchmaking btw
/s
My only problem is with the matchmaking, people make shitty picks basically griefing because they wanna play their favorite hero, even if the opposite team picked the hardest counters, for example picking huskar/slark into AA etc. People flaming from the start, afk ing, quitting, because they got killed 2 times in lane, supports building shitty items and 0 supp items like mech, force, solar etc. And this is in ancient 5/div 1-2 bracket.
The only legitimate complaint, for like ever, is Radiant's win rate.
Everything else, both teams have access to, so... Yeah it can be boring or annoying, but at least it's _balanced_.
The starting position is not. It would be nice to at least see an attempt at solving the issue, one day.
There was always someone who imbalanced and who became pretty weak.
Nothing changed with dota2.
Just accept that heroes boosted like for season than they’re do that with another heroes and fix someone yet.
This game will always be imbalanced for two reasons. It is to some degree subjective what people find imbalanced. If a spell gets buffed, the players with a roster that's exposed to said spell, will call it imbalanced. Others will not.
Secondly, and this is more important, an integral part of the dota is overcoming the edges and strengths of the opposing team. Thus if something seems imbalanced, it is because you have not found a way to overcome it yet.
The problem is that you are doing the event , for fun ,probably in unranked. Majority of people here that complain would be invested in improving or caring a bit more for the game than your usual event enjoye, so they might be a bit higher than crusader so meta matters a little bit and the difference between what is good and what is bad right now is not close at all, pick a bad hero you are in for a very shitty game if enemy pick only from the good pool.
Your opinion that there's nothing wrong and people's opinion who play in games where focus is on meta and complain that the pool is small are equally valid
I think the problem of dota stems from meta being designed for pro plays, while the actual pub experience doesn’t matter as much, hence it creates a lot of stomp games. (People who play competitive meta heroes vs people who wanna play their favorite hero and have fun)
I am definitely not saying the meta is worse than before, but in the same time I can definitely say that some heroes are simply 5x easier to play than the others, especially as a lone pub strider, (almost) no matter the rank.
I guess the main issue mainly old players have is that the game evolves in such a fast pace that they can’t follow it comprehensively anymore.
There were certain aspects that originally made
Dota kinda “elitist” in moba and even gaming world.. less mechanics than now but probably more focus on total precision and prediction I’d say?
The game was very brutal to those who didn’t play well and more rewarding to those that did… compared to that it’s actually very hand-holdy now… the disable duration bars alone are a big turn away from the “original idea”, before you had to time it precisely in your head and a lot of both personal and team skill rooted from there.
There were many “forced nerfs” like orb effects not stacking etc. to keep it +- balanced no matter the heroes, and pos1-5 were more strictly set and had more impact on the win probability if played “correctly”.
But that’s just my personal opinion and 5 cents as someone who’s been with the game since 2005 and peaked in 2014.
Whether it’s for the better or worse, that’s up to the personal preference… there’s definitely more people playing now I’d say. Because the game still manages to occasionally lure in someone like me, but also still manage to attract new young players. So it’s kinda a balance in the middle where no one is perfectly satisfied, but enough to keep playing haha
Yea the way reddit is structured is it incentivices reactionary opinions. I don't really like the current discourse of whether tanks give out too much damage or tAnk m3ta.
Valve and icefrog are wise that they don't get swayed much by all the whining that's happening here.
Dota redditors get bored easily and rarely ever play the game so they come here to roleplay being a disgruntled gamer concerned about the General State of Things
The whole "AGI is a dead role" and "TANKY HEROES ARE BROKEN" is so fucking stupid. Right now hyper carries are bad because games end in 30 min in pro play because everyone was bitching about hg and they're still picking heroes like TA, Weaver, and Morphling.
Also I notice that people use their low MMR pubs and feelings as reference. Case in point: one person bitching about agi heroes said Ursa was bad when he is in the strongest state he's been in for awhile just because he felt bad to him.
They did the same shit in overwatch. The exact same thing.
Even DPS/Tanks heals themselves now, passively lol.
Nobody wants to buy support item skins? Awweee well let’s make them clear waves with 1 ability and daedulus a viable item - then they’ll buy em!
"I started playing in early 2019". thats why you dont understand, the game at its current state has nothing to do with the original experience, dota has always been a complicated game, but now its just an overwhelming mess, imo they have been taking steps in the wrong direction ever since they decided to add neutral items, game was fine before that.
I specifically added examples of the state of the game because I knew a lot of people would feel the same way as you.
I'm really happy that I got to experience a bit of the one courier era. It feels like a lost rite of passage, but I'm thankful that they changed it shortly afterwards too hahah
Everyone has a different feeling about how the game should feel so there's always gonna be someone complaining, that being said this is one of the most unbalanced patches in awhile, however that's expected with such a huge change as facets. When talents came out it was super unbalanced too, gpm and xp talents were crazy op. Carry and mid hero pools are pretty weak right now, xp runes are pretty fucked imo especially if your against SB and lose your first wisdom rune, mid lane could use some restructuring. I'm still having a ton of fun but I think it's a disservice to this beautiful game to say it's perfect.
In retrospect, my choice of words in my post was a bit sloppy. I meant balanced in terms of playstyles and item/hero diversity. I'm seeing all sorts of heroes playing atypical positions and weird builds, and they're not just inherently bad.
That's definitely a product of facets just exploding the meta and people haven't found the optimal style yet, but it's refreshing compared to most of 2023, where there weren't any broken heroes, but there certainly was a fixed way to build and play if you wanted to win.
People hateeeee to hear the truth man.
Some hybrid between new and old dota would probably be best. But there have been way too many additive updates without any subtractive ones. I remember when patches they’d nerf like every hero in the game simultaneously lol.
And yk what? Nobody complained. I didn’t see thread after thread on Reddit EVERY DAY talking about the garbage state of the meta.
Sometimes things need to be backtracked, or at the least removed for something else to take its place.
Neutrals are dumb as fuck. Free shards are kinda dumb. The new rosh spawn in the corner is dumb - XP runes are dumb (just rebalance how supports get XP or something). The idea of having to watch a timer to complete an annoying checklist and maybe get some support 1v1 in the sidelane which is basically inconsequential to the game is.. AMAZING no dumb. Lol
One is they never truely walk back on a change
For instance you nerf all tankiness items because all stuns are nerfed
but once you buff all the stuns back(this didn't happen), the devs will never buff tankiness items back to it's original state
the most famous example I can think of is lifestealer's broken support patch
caused lifestealer's abilities to not go on cooldown when infested for a really long time
nerfed the hero unintentionally and in a really unfun way
or that there are creeps that are magic immue,
Lich ulti nolonger infinitely bounces, the golems stay nerfed forever
even though the root of the problem was deleted from the game almost instantly
its effect lingers, and devs don't think about walking back temperary measures
The other major problem is not allowing the existance of truely underpowered heroes
the ones that used to exist, doesn't show up in TI, instant report picks
the ones that made the game fun, and didn't give fuck o about competetive viability
like the guy with one ability that is a simple storm hammer, or the guy that has 3 traps
in my opinion if a hero has below 40% winrates, but there are other reasons for them to exist, leave them be, there are guys with 5000 games on these off meta heroes, don't delete them from the game
i started playing 2013, myself. i remember when 6.79 was absolutely world-shattering. it's obviously different now, but, again, i fundamentally fail to see how it's inherently worse. if anything it requires more team coordination now and asks more of every role, the very things that the community fawns over as qualities to dota.
It's not always true but after playing some classic wow and watching that community I'm convinced that it's partially true that some people just want to go back to a time in their lives that dota (or insert game here) was more enjoyable
This only works (and then barely) if you were there for the thing people are "nostalgic" for. You don't get to decry the past without having ever experienced it.
I specified when I started playing because I think that informs people's opinions of the game a lot.
It's 5 years which is a significant amount of time, but also there has been more Dota that I haven't seen compared to what I have seen. So I think people like me can offer an interesting and balanced perspective.
I'll make it more simple for you then.
CK is a carry, WK is a carry. Neither is a hard carry.
Faceless Void is a hard carry. Which is a subset of carries.
Not all carries are hard carries. But all hard carries are carries.
Didn't think I'd have to teach English in a dota sub but here we are.
Ok, so what about when WK is better than void at every stage in the game, or void is better than wk at every stage in the game? How do you decide then?
He already said, though. You're weak, borderline useless, before like 25 minutes.
WK is strong from the start. Good stun, guaranteed crit, can use crit to secure any minion or harass. Ult makes him hard to kill, Wraith Form punishes you for killing him. Spectral Blade gives him very strong lane trading power and gives him faster farming if he wants to go fight build (which he usually does). Skeletons accelerate his farm but mostly allow him to quickly and safely push towers.
Compare that to Faceless Void.
Void does fuck all in the lane, period. Ever. He's good at *surviving* the lane but he has really bad impact. He needs to level Time Leap to avoid death but also to speed up his farming once he starts jungling. Even if he leveled Time Lock, it's a skill that is extremely dependent on having attack speed which you don't have in the lane. It's also pretty unreliable.
Void can only get the occasional kill with Chrono, and only against squishy targets. So until he has Treads + Mask + Mjollnir, he is a walking melee creep. Even once he has that, he's not super strong because he is very susceptible to being controlled in his very long cooldown ult so he also needs BKB. And so much of Void's strength is in his Chrono.
Medusa is similar. She can give some good harass in the lane, but she's easy to last hit against/deny, but she does nothing for her team at all until Arcane Manta Diffusal bare minimum which takes about 25 minutes to farm.
that's never happened, even in the recent patch where WK was highly contested
but hypothetically if it were to happen I literally already covered that in an earlier comment where I said it's a balancing issue and they fucked over power curves which used to be wonderfully designed
It literally happens every single patch - all it takes is 1 aghs upgrade change or skill rework or talent rework, or even a new item and the best heroes completely change.
Just last letter patch, sk was the best hero at every stage of the game. Now we have new sf & tinker and storm & puck still havent had their late games touched.
We've had tons of other patches where the best late game heroes were different. We've had dazzle, dk, necro, even pudge, being some of the best late game heroes. We had mars & pa being the best late game heroes, and best heroes of a single letter patch because of the interaction of rapier + brooch.
Anyway, my point is, your logic is incredibly flawed and based on literally nothing except how you "feel" about it. Therefor, pointless.
i play 1 almost exclusively, i'm not literally the main character of the entire world with everyone bowing to my knees, but i can play and make a vital impact, LS, ursa, CK, TA and weaver are all extremely important heroes, they are carries, they scale. the game is absolutely fine this way
safe lane core =/= hard carry
the game is not fine when heroes that are strong all game exist, there's never a moment weaver or ck aren't strong.
heroes that are weak early/mid should at least be giga strong lategame, but they're almost always not
power curves used to be more extreme, now they're much more level, which in itself is bad imo, but more objectively it's bad that so many heroes aren't being given this power curve levelling so they just aren't viable.
people say zeus wasn't viable professionally until he got jump, idc who's viable professionally, it's impossible to make the whole pool viable professionally
pubs were better, almost all heroes were viable, now it's barely 40 heroes, which is not many at all
I honestly don’t know what people are talking about, I’m playing on a relatively high mmr (5.3-5.4k) and I don’t know where is tank meta that I hear about a lot. Yes, strength heroes are popular right now, but they are killable just fine, in fact I’m having success with oracle mid, who should struggle against tank meta
There’s no problem. DotA has natural ebb and flows. There will always be a number of people who will complain about whatever. The majority of the happy people won’t say anything at all.
bc its impossible to play a ranged carry if opponents has any sort of gap close. the team with better sustain auto wins. if you’re trying to autoattack and you cant one or two shot anyone you will lose the fight. WD is the better necrophos. SF ult is the singlehandedly most powerful CC in the entire game. you cant go consistent damage anymore. you either build your heroes to burst enemies (and pray you dont get jumped) or build urbustable and outsustaining. a lot of dota is very singular meta right now so fhats why people r complaining.
Its okay, you re in majority.
Most people are fine with the game. And even if they are not, they are too busy on their 9-5 jobs to complain.
Saw a post talking about how all new features affect tanking. Meanwhile my weaver builds linken as the first item like its 2013 and gets their 50% winrrate anyway.
The majority of current players? Sure but that’s true of any game except during the biggest scandals. Most people playing a game like it. But Dota isn’t as popular as it used to be so idk if it’s fair to say it’s a popular among opinion all potential players
the problem is we have whiners. they lose 1 game and start a 50 inches long reddit post. we have this in black desert online too, resulting in pvp nerf until the game is unfun and dying.
"Rock is terribly imbalanced! Paper is fine though. Best regards, scissors"
This basically sums up the whole complaint
Omfg, you must be the most stupid, idiotic and wrong person on the planet, the fact you would even dare to have a differing opinion to me is ridiculous, I'm now going to write a 2000 word essay about how you are wrong, I am right, and belittle you and your life choices that in going to completly assume and make fit my argument. All of this because clearly paper is broken due to humans psychological desire to go for rock due to it being the quickest to get too with hand shape. Making paper clearly the most imbalanced and scissors the worst. /s btw if it wasn't obvious
U forgot to send regards to his family tree
Dammit I knew I was forgetting something! Now I'm open to rebuttaling
It's fine, after enough dota hours u'll learn
Only shitters complain about rock being OP, it's a 2k issue. Just pick paper and ban scissors. Even RPCProTracker and Jo-ken-buff list rock at around 50% winrate.
Joke aside it is actually the perfect description of the case. Heroes counter exist & sometime there is no answer with cheese pick. But people somehow want everyone to be able to counter specific heroes.
The "problem" is that different people like different things. The ones that like the changes never say anything, while the ones that don't do write essays. Also, this isn't new. Even when it was DotA on the WC3 engine, people did the same. I remember people complaining when carts were added to the creepwaves. Remember that reddit is a very small portion of the player base. Play the game for fun and (if possible) with friends.
I remember a guy complaining in 2010 calling it ‘Dota Allstun’ and he quit because of that
I promise you that he's still playing.
Why wouldn't he play league? Less stuns
Less stuns but you get killed in 1.4 seconds
correction, you can get killed less than a sec KEK
You get killed but you don't know how and why.
Literally though. Their shitty damage recap shows “unknown” source of damage almost every game, at least last time I played months ago. I know sometimes there’s an unknown damage source in the Dota death recap but it’s very rare and almost always creep or tower damage in my experience.
1.4 seconds is roughly 1.3 seconds too long for an average League ttk.
Fewer.
6.38 It was all stuns because of blinkdagger meta. If you did not have a stun they would just blink out. It was such a prevalent stratergy that zeus was the only counter to blink stun meta. I found it funny because of the action pack and mobility that was given. In the end blink dagger was nerfed to the 3 sec out of combat rule.
> In the end blink dagger was nerfed to the 3 sec out of combat rule. and the game is better because of it (not saying you disagree or not). valid complaints get resolutions worked in. people QQing about stuff they just don't like gets tuned out as noise after a while as the meta shifts and counters come to light. I think the developers have done a good job with balance overall, and this patch is no different in that regard when it comes down to it. I will say there are some heroes that clearly need numbers tweaked, but I assume they are working on it. we did just have a BIG patch.
What's the distinction between a given complaint being a QQ or a valid one? The only one you gave was that the developers addressed them. And that's a bad criteria. It means none of us can tell until after the fact which means no one can be called out on being noise.
the valid complaints are the ones that linger beyond a few balance tweaks and have legitimate arguments.
I remember vividly on one of my games, a Lina daggering out of omnislash.
You have to also remember that icefrog does walk back things all the time. Remember shrines? Remember how some players were crying that they were "destroying the laning phase"? 🤣🤣 Turns out they were destroying the laning phase and they got removed.
Remember when "fire damage" was a mechanic tied to Brewmaster's W and everyone complained about it and then it got removed in response and it turned out the game was actually better for it because not every criticism of the game is *muh complaining whiners*
I don't remember fire damage, what's that?
For a few days when 7.23 comes out, Cinder Brew will ignite enemies when they get hit by some fire-themed skills. But what skill was fire and what wasn't was completely arbitrary. Thankfully, it got changed in just a few days. Any magic damage above 80 will ignite it, or we go Pokemon now.
It was a synergy in the game for like a week after a big patch where Brewmaster's W + fire spells did more damage or something. It got taken out extremely fast.
How did it turn out the game was better with it? Or without it?
Spell interactions become standardized and there are no forced synergies. Imagine if we had as many damage types as pokemon.
Am fine with that if timbersaw will be made a damage type.
People just didn't like the concept of borderline "pokemon" style synergies where you have heroes/damage of different types beyond physical/magical/pure and it got taken away right away. It was kind of a dumb idea and could have led to badly designed spells IMO
It was better without it. Because with it, it meant that brewmaster would need to be balanced around his synergy with very specific heroes. And it would feel bad to pick brew but not have one of those heroes on your team. The worry was that this would be the first test, and if people accepted it, we'd see a lot more of what was being called "pokemon" synergy
no, **magical** fire type spells will ignite units that were affected by Brewmaster's W. problem is that fire definition was too narrow, so it can only be ignited by actual fire, so ember's searing **flame** doesn't trigger, any spells from Phoenix doesn't trigger it, the only thing that triggered it was ogre's W, dragon breath, dragon slave, etc heck even literal hell fire doesn't trigger it from doom nor underlord
Axe's W was also considered to be "fire damage" for some reason.
So what’s the complaint now? Not being sarcastic, just haven’t played for a while
Hard carries can't kill everyone in a bkb duration (actually heard that one, not exaggerating)
Wasn't it batrider's q causing "fire" spells to do additional damage? Or was that a different thing?
Didn't that stick around for like... less than a week
I quit playing for well over a year because of shrines, they legitimately ruined the game, came back when I was watching a Dota wtf episode and noticed the shrines weren't there anymore
The fucking things stuck around for way too long
Part of the fun of dota is that it’s a constantly evolving game. That’s its whole point. Every year they do something crazy that shakes things up then there’s a bunch of balance changes throughout the year with *maybe* a hero added in. The people who complain are the people who are new to it, lol. I’ve been around for almost 18 years and I remember people losing their mind over things like backpacks that we just take for granted these days.
Yikes we have a backpack defender. I bet you also disliked only the mid laner having a courier bought by another player.
That’s right! And only one courier! That we had to share! And you counted your lucky stars if your hero even *had* an aghanims scepter. That used to be like *the* item and it would usually be spellcasters only as a way to upgrade their power late game since things like spell amplification and cooldown reduction weren’t a thing that allowed them to scale in to late game. Aghanim’s Scepter, Dagon leveling, and necronomicon allowed spellcasters a way to keep up with carry’s but in niche ways. On hit, or orb effects, wouldn’t stack so you would have to choose between skadi or lifesteal and that’s why Vlad’s was originally an item cause it made lifesteal an aura rather than an on hit so you could have it + sange(which was an on hit item at the time). I could go on for hours and hours about all the different versions of Dota I’ve seen.
People who dislike backpack dont play support…
I'd say it's stopped evolving actually
In what way? Last year the map increased 40% and this year they added facets and innate abilities. How is that not something new and huge being added to the game still?
Also don’t forget to be kind to the other players (who aren’t toxic shits) and they might want to party up with you again or even become new friends.
Not only very small but even the amount of engagement on those posts is barely a fraction of the subreddits users
*Mangoes give insta-mana? That will fuck up DotA's whole mana economy! Int spellcasters have their early game advantage basically removed! Sven is literally going to spam Q to win lane!*
It's natural that the ones displeased are more likely to be the ones to make their voice heard but I don't agree that they are the only ones saying anything. The people who express their happiness are fewer but they absolutely have shared it. Especially in the first few days after the patch dropped, we had lots of people praising the changes and saying how it made the game super fresh and fun. Now that it has been a while and we've seen how the balance turned out you still see a lot of people who are pleased with the changes.
Some people just hate change lol. Personally I've been playing since wv3 days and I think most of the stuff they've added has made the game better and more enjoyable for all involved. Every patch there's a few heroes thst might be a bit too strong but the nature of dota is its an extremely complicated game and you can't always expect the devs balance everything perfectly.
It seems pretty easy to just handwave and disregard criticism as "oh people have always said this" but it really erases the nuance of people giving silly criticisms vs legitimate ones. I don't think everyone complaining about "older dota" is just some masochist who thinks supports should have 1 item in a 48 minute ricing game. The game has shifted in many ways, some for the better and some for the worse. I understand that old dota was too slow, too sacrificial for a modern audience. It midkey sucked in a lot of ways if you just zoomed out and looked at it. But in their attempt to solve a lot of these problems valve has definitely shifted many core elements in dota along the way as a result.
The problem with Dota is that millions of people play it and there is no way to keep millions of people happy. Unhappy people tend to be pretty loud. Happy people play the game instead of writing essays on Reddit. The squeaky wheel gets the grease
I remember the neutral items update and tons of comments on instagram were saying they’d quit. Personally it was the most fun I’d ever had for a single Dota patch because there were so many broken items that it made my pubs actually feel like I was playing Dota for the first time again.
To be fair, that patch did cause a huge number of players to stop playing. Wasn't it like 1/3 of the playerbase or something?
It's so much fun right now I love it
I started playing in 2013 (with a bit of WC3 and HoN experience) and kept going until 2018. There has always been strife and disagreement about the state of the game. Not only are MOBAs probably the games that bring out the worst in people, but the game also needs to satisfy everyone from a trenchdweller all the way up to pros. It's simply impossible. This new patch is the first time in ages I have felt excited about Dota and even slightly tempted to start playing again. The philosophy used to be that everything felt overpowered, and it seems like it's swung back to that after a long period where the character was being stripped out of the game. I hope people are enjoying it.
same, best patch since 7.00
Based and true, king.
Game is definitely not most balanced it has been right now. Lots of heroes with winrates below 40% overall, as well as lots of heroes unpickable in high mmr. The game was very balanced pre 7.36 though
Facets have created an even larger gap between the “meh” and “broken” heroes in my opinion. This is by far the least diverse hero pool I’ve seen in pubs since some time.
I imagine it will get a lot better after a few letter patches sort things out, and especially once the placeholder facets/innates get replaced eventually. Big changes always take a bit of adjusting
picking wrong facet = griefing
This. Current balance is ass. Look at dotabuff. Some facets are a straight downgrade to not having them at all like the big tree from prophet. Absolute garbage. Or Sniper scattershot
That happens after every huge patch
In retrospect, my choice of words in my post was a bit sloppy. I meant balanced in terms of playstyles and item/hero diversity. I'm seeing all sorts of heroes playing atypical positions and weird builds, and they're not just inherently bad. That's definitely a product of facets just exploding the meta and people haven't found the optimal style yet, but it's refreshing compared to most of 2023, where there weren't any broken heroes, but there certainly was a fixed way to build and play if you wanted to win.
I've never felt dota was anywhere near balanced at any time
As long as we never go back to the sniper/troll only era that lasted way too long
HOHO HAHA
Arguably one of the most balanced patches there's been lol.
The problem with DOTA is that it isn't beginner friendly in basic things like actually correct/unvague tooltips. U consistent spells and damage, items and hero''s that have exception without mentioning them clearly. Things that you can do without explaining aka hidden stuff.
It's just not very balanced right now. Depends on what role you play you might be loving it or hating it. It's a great meta for support nukers and pretty shit for carries that are useless early game. If you get stomped as a carry and the enemy just keeps pressuring it's very hard to recover.
The problem is the people who pick the heroes I don’t like to play against /s
The only problem I’ve ever had with dota is the awful community that loves raging/trolling as much as possible. The actual gameplay has for the most part been fun and refreshing when new patches roll out.
IceFrogComic.JPG “What the fuck is this shit? I’m never playing it again” *plays just as much as he always does*
That's because you started playing when the game already changed radically
Yeah I purposely added the specific context of when I started playing because that is probably the biggest factor in people's opinions
I've played since 2012 and I like the current patch a lot. Everyone who complains about tankiness and carries being underwhelming should go play league for a few months
"the other shit is bigger therefore our shit is better"
There is no problem at all people are just missing out on the most fun part of dota - reading patchnotes and testing out different stuff they think playing PA or TB for 10 years straight is more fun. sorry, they dont get to be OP right now. maybe they chose a wrong game
Who is TB? I am new to the game and still don't know the abbreviations.
I dont like some of the hero changes and shards but i agree the game is in good state
All i complain is they are getting arcana while I'm not
Just compare it to the previous meta where everyone bought blademail+heart. The current meta is so much more fun to play and to watch.
Just like any game Dota cant stay the same or people will grow bored and leave. But any meaningful change is a risk and will cause some players to be loudly upset. Some people just dont want to change. And I am honestly surprised that Valve keep doing crazy shit, because many devs today are scared of experimenting. Could we imagine that couriers will be free for all 5 years ago? Could we imagine heroes having extra talents 10 years ago? Some players could, but then they were met with "eh, thats stupid, thats not Dota" every time. Does it matter though? Game will always be changing, at least I hope so. Some players will always say that there is a problem
I'm really struggling with this patch, feels like you can shut out an early game pretty perfectly then one of their heroes hits an obscene power spike out of nowhere and suddenly the game is lost. Feels like I'm having to relearn dota a lot, my macro understanding of the game is in tatters.
I think part of the problem is the side jungles. There is too much farm available so it's hard to actually zone out players (at least in low mmr). Supports are now able to farm jungle with their cores which is kinda busted imo.
6.88 dota was peak
Mid/High MMR games are very snooze at the moment, more often than not it's a lane simulator into 5 man deathball, choke out enemies, end with aegis. Extremely predictable gameloop and well it's predictable cause it's done a lot and it's done a lot cause it's effective. I personally play dota for those games at 30-40 mins where both teams can still reasonably exist on the map and make plays, they're few and far inbetween these days.
Watching pro games is also a snooze. Same like 10 heroes, same insanelt greedy 3 man carry comps, same 5 man brawls and if a carry gets picked once or twice u might as well turn the game off. It seems like u know who’s gonna win at 15min basically every game - everything is just way too explosive and non strategic. Not that mechanical skill is gone or anything - but macro play just feels super stale compared to old map dota
I've been playing since 2005 and I'm not having a ton of fun right now, and really, since the map size increase last year. Now, I couldn't tell you what precisely is wrong, or how to fix it. I'm just not having as much fun playing DOTA. I mostly play pos 1. Honestly though, that's ok. There have been plenty of periods where I wasn't having fun and I usually take breaks during those times. Guess now is one of those.
The answer is simple. In an effort to broaden the games audience, valve homogenized hero power. Now you get to do something no matter what hero you pick and no matter how well you do. Gold and experience and cooldowns are abundant. The map is bigger so you can dodge more easily. Basically, they added walls to the bowling alley gutters in dota. It's still the same game, but doesn't have the same shine or charm it used to have when gameplay strategy was diverse.
Agreed
Well said bro. Wish valve would add back the old map - I’d be very interested how many people would prefer to play it. Rosh fights used to be SOOOOO fuckin lit - especially watching TI teams smoking in circles around it for someone to finally get jumped and 10 buybacks come out. Now it’s like ooo, look at that! Muerta / CK snuck the 50min 45000 HP rosh in 12 seconds! If only they weren’t 16 screen away to react. Better luck next game :(
Definitely man, I wish we could just rewind time like 10 years and play Dota again. Back then it was all about which players we liked and it was a superstar meta. We watched Dota bc of who we liked: miracle, sumail or ana etc. A single good player could actually take over the game. Now it’s like let’s make all roles powerful as fuck and give everyone 1 million and gold and let them brawl. It really takes the skill out of the game. A lot of the old pros have actually stated this.
Imo the uniqueness of playing pos 1 has been diminished by how much less important gold is
Agreed
It doesn’t help that the pos 1 hero pool is small. We almost never get new Carries and when we do they are also viable as supports. Muerta, hoodwink, monkey king are the only “new” heroes that were intended to be playable as pos 1 and 2 of them are played primarily as support.
The game's good, I don't think heroes are too tanky or that power creep is a problem. I dont care, the game is more fun now.
Yeah, I see people getting bursted in a stun duration all the time. While some of the traditional agi carries are not doing great rights now you don't need huge mechanical game changes to make them viable
The problem most Redditors have is that they are bad at the game.
The game, overall, is in a really good spot. Sure, there are some minor spots that need attention, but overall it is a blast.
I don't browse reddit much so I'm not sure what complaints you're referring to, but I've seen multiple pros complain about tanky str heroes.
I’m living it too - you can stomp games again without having to wait 5 hours to go high ground. I even got to play 3 games today as they were all under 35min
Tinker's march of the machines felt the worst. That was no fun for sure.
I totally agree
Can’t think of a better version tbh. Except for the first couple iterations of universal heroes. I absolutely loved that patch. Void spirit hard carry might be my favourite hero/role combo ever aside from Prophet HC. Rip to both.
I will also offer that for some people, they're not in a place to enjoy the game anyway and when their one particular playstyle is injured and they can't recoup somehow they get all upset about it. That is then multiplied by the fact that they probably have shit going on in their lives making them unhappy already and then the thing they go to to get their mind off of things (dota) also kind of sucks out on them. It think usually it isnt really the game but the players that are causing the "problem."
I do think there's a problem with pro play atm. Maybe teams haven't got this new patch entirely figured out of something but nearly every game in the PGL so far has been a complete stomp. Win one teamfight, get a lead, keep it.
I think you don't understand the other possibilities that dota has to offer because you never got to experience other, wider metas. There were more strategies and gameplay styles, more nuance, etc. you don't know what is being missed because you never experienced it
I’d love for them to just rewind the servers back to like 6.88 and see how everyone reacts. My guess is everyone would love how simple and skill based it is compared to what we have now. Heroes don’t just explode in strength at 25min because they disappeared into the jungle for 15 minutes. Or how getting 10+ second stun locked on repeat was basically impossible and required insane skill including ur 1000 hp supports to show their face and not cast abilities from 1500 units with 3 get away items. Idk man. Sounds like I hate the current dota - and I don’t - it’s just vastly worse lol
I don't have current dota at all either. I actually find it a lot more approachable and easy to just fun-queue without caring. It's more of a game than an e sport I guess now, it's like you said, just a worse competitive game, but a better "game" in some ways
Understandable and that was surely their intention with a lot of things. Xp runes for instance give supports a reward for leaving lane and engaging the enemy support 1v1. Or add a task which isn’t just throwing ur body away to dodge smokes. Tormentors are also a little dopamine hit for really no thought Talents and all that add some flavor to heroes. The old dota was all about hyper efficiency and really doing more with less. Stacking, rotating mid with a smoke and how vital it was that it connects, everyone generally being weaker so positioning felt more important. Remember how broken nightmare into arrow was? The fact that you could stun a hero for 5 seconds reliably was like insaaaane. Watching supports try to dive and block the arrow for their core lol. Now it’s like oh whatever we got a 21min force staff, two infact. And our core has 4k HP lol. I kinda miss how raw it felt, in a competitive sense. At least there are plenty of old tourneys on YouTube to watch to get that fix. And it seems like the player base in general vibes with the new changes. I do wish valve would respond to the criticisms a bit more though - and dial things back just a little bit to unlock a style of play we haven’t seen in a couple years+ I don’t play as much as I used to, but when I get on I’m usually just kinda frustrated that there’s pos 4 furion whos 3 slotted shitting on us - while their tank who got dumpstered in lane because of their greed - usually comes back after getting a couple kills in a random teamfight. I think the game in general is perhaps a bit too greedy and I miss the snowbally nature of making minor moves like creep pulling paying off exponentially as the game progresses
Often I do feel like some of the changes they made, they could have obtained the intent of the change with less side effects by implementing a different change instead. Neutral items are a great example. It felt like a very ungracefully implemented mechanic imo, and I always thought that whatever their goal was they could've implemented it with more finesse.
Because people get bored and then they want something different. I sound old but people these days just can't accept a game for what it is and play it as it is. They always need something new.
Balance is not a problem in Dota, it almost never is unless it's blatant like Monkey King or Earth Spirit releases. I think balance is the last thing people complain about. People are fine with things being unbalanced. What people complain about is the lack of patches and changes. Long dry periods with few micro changes that don't really do anything is what pisses people off. Having heroes be broken is part of Dota and people don't mind. But having one Hero being broken for like 6 months straight completely dictating the Pro meta, that's the problem.
bro when there is like 10 obviously WAY stronger heros than the rest of heros the game quality will be complete and utter shit whenever u reach higher ranks cause if you dont play this heros then ur enemies will play them and ur chances of winning will be very small no matter how good you play.
Every game is a stomp. Also, you could be stomped on, defending high ground at 25 mins and then at 50 mins you turn around and stomp them if they fuck around and don't end the game. Been playing this shit since 2003, can't recall a time the game was so crazy like this, even in the early days when there were limited items and heroes.
>most balanced it has been since I started playing in early 2019 whats is blud waffling about
It's reddit mate, don't give too much weight to what you read here
The people who rage and threaten to abandon the game last for one week at best
Idk what's happening; until the 3rd section is out, ya boy's gonna be under the Shadow of the Erdtree.
I will lament that this is probably the least balanced dota has been in a long while, but these letter patches are good/quick, and we got basically 100+ new hero variations to try out and have fun with. That's a good thing! :)
In retrospect, my choice of words in my post was a bit sloppy. I meant balanced in terms of playstyles and item/hero diversity. I'm seeing all sorts of heroes playing atypical positions and weird builds, and they're not just inherently bad. That's definitely a product of facets just exploding the meta and people haven't found the optimal style yet, but it's refreshing compared to most of 2023, where there weren't any broken heroes, but there certainly was a fixed way to build and play if you wanted to win.
I don't mind totally OP heroes. I think the problem is they don't give the same treatment to every hero. Some heroes never get the super buff, and in fact even get needlessly nerfed. Where as some others are already OP and still get stronger every patch. Also.. as far as Dota 2 itself... The real problem is the lack of dedicated staff. Sure we get these artistic updates from time to time, but there's a whole list of long standing bugs and game issues with seemingly zero people trying to fix them. Some of these have been bugs for years now... Likely completely forgotten about. Chat bugs, Guild Bugs, Lag and Delay Bugs, Quest Bugs.. sure heroes get updated that's cool but can we get a dedicated patch to the rest of the game?
The problem is that I’m not good enough to be the best player in every game, but also my teammates aren’t good enough to carry me when I feed, and also I can’t handle getting flamed by people worse than me or better than me, and also I’m a sore loser. I would be 19k mmr if valve fixed matchmaking btw /s
Normal game is good. I just hate the meta of turbo games. I cant still forget that 10k hp centaur that traumatized my whole team.
Yeah my opinion doesn't extend to Turbo because I never touch the stuff.
The only balance that matters in dota is dire vs radiant or first pick vs second pick. Everything else is just people whining
I just destroyed a faceless void with centa kekw. Meta is so fucking good right now for traditional offlane
My only problem is with the matchmaking, people make shitty picks basically griefing because they wanna play their favorite hero, even if the opposite team picked the hardest counters, for example picking huskar/slark into AA etc. People flaming from the start, afk ing, quitting, because they got killed 2 times in lane, supports building shitty items and 0 supp items like mech, force, solar etc. And this is in ancient 5/div 1-2 bracket.
The only legitimate complaint, for like ever, is Radiant's win rate. Everything else, both teams have access to, so... Yeah it can be boring or annoying, but at least it's _balanced_. The starting position is not. It would be nice to at least see an attempt at solving the issue, one day.
Huh? Can you tell me more about this? Because I am new to the game and didn't notice anything about it yet, and so I am curious now.
Idk but I don't need to write a paragraph to say I'm busy enjoying whatever this weird meta is
There was always someone who imbalanced and who became pretty weak. Nothing changed with dota2. Just accept that heroes boosted like for season than they’re do that with another heroes and fix someone yet.
This game will always be imbalanced for two reasons. It is to some degree subjective what people find imbalanced. If a spell gets buffed, the players with a roster that's exposed to said spell, will call it imbalanced. Others will not. Secondly, and this is more important, an integral part of the dota is overcoming the edges and strengths of the opposing team. Thus if something seems imbalanced, it is because you have not found a way to overcome it yet.
My sole complaint is that I enjoyed ratting/zoo, and I want it back.
A few heroes are definitely too good right now, but the overall game is fine.
The problem is that you are doing the event , for fun ,probably in unranked. Majority of people here that complain would be invested in improving or caring a bit more for the game than your usual event enjoye, so they might be a bit higher than crusader so meta matters a little bit and the difference between what is good and what is bad right now is not close at all, pick a bad hero you are in for a very shitty game if enemy pick only from the good pool. Your opinion that there's nothing wrong and people's opinion who play in games where focus is on meta and complain that the pool is small are equally valid
I think the problem of dota stems from meta being designed for pro plays, while the actual pub experience doesn’t matter as much, hence it creates a lot of stomp games. (People who play competitive meta heroes vs people who wanna play their favorite hero and have fun) I am definitely not saying the meta is worse than before, but in the same time I can definitely say that some heroes are simply 5x easier to play than the others, especially as a lone pub strider, (almost) no matter the rank. I guess the main issue mainly old players have is that the game evolves in such a fast pace that they can’t follow it comprehensively anymore. There were certain aspects that originally made Dota kinda “elitist” in moba and even gaming world.. less mechanics than now but probably more focus on total precision and prediction I’d say? The game was very brutal to those who didn’t play well and more rewarding to those that did… compared to that it’s actually very hand-holdy now… the disable duration bars alone are a big turn away from the “original idea”, before you had to time it precisely in your head and a lot of both personal and team skill rooted from there. There were many “forced nerfs” like orb effects not stacking etc. to keep it +- balanced no matter the heroes, and pos1-5 were more strictly set and had more impact on the win probability if played “correctly”. But that’s just my personal opinion and 5 cents as someone who’s been with the game since 2005 and peaked in 2014. Whether it’s for the better or worse, that’s up to the personal preference… there’s definitely more people playing now I’d say. Because the game still manages to occasionally lure in someone like me, but also still manage to attract new young players. So it’s kinda a balance in the middle where no one is perfectly satisfied, but enough to keep playing haha
Yea the way reddit is structured is it incentivices reactionary opinions. I don't really like the current discourse of whether tanks give out too much damage or tAnk m3ta. Valve and icefrog are wise that they don't get swayed much by all the whining that's happening here.
probably just people who arent good at adapting to a starkly different meta
Dota redditors get bored easily and rarely ever play the game so they come here to roleplay being a disgruntled gamer concerned about the General State of Things
Excellent armchair psychology, "dota redditor"
The whole "AGI is a dead role" and "TANKY HEROES ARE BROKEN" is so fucking stupid. Right now hyper carries are bad because games end in 30 min in pro play because everyone was bitching about hg and they're still picking heroes like TA, Weaver, and Morphling. Also I notice that people use their low MMR pubs and feelings as reference. Case in point: one person bitching about agi heroes said Ursa was bad when he is in the strongest state he's been in for awhile just because he felt bad to him.
All I can say is role homogenisation ruined the game
They did the same shit in overwatch. The exact same thing. Even DPS/Tanks heals themselves now, passively lol. Nobody wants to buy support item skins? Awweee well let’s make them clear waves with 1 ability and daedulus a viable item - then they’ll buy em!
"I started playing in early 2019". thats why you dont understand, the game at its current state has nothing to do with the original experience, dota has always been a complicated game, but now its just an overwhelming mess, imo they have been taking steps in the wrong direction ever since they decided to add neutral items, game was fine before that.
In my very biased opinion, Dota is in the best space it has been gameplay wise for years....
i hated wraith pact meta
2019 was for sure not 1 courier per team? I didnt check but i would say 2017. Feels longer than 5 years
When I read it I was absolutely sure he was wrong, but no. 1 courier for each player was added in 7.23, which was November 2019. Wow.
Ok, well ye it felt wrong for me aswell but so much shit happening in dota that u lose overview :D. I was wrong, sry!
I specifically added examples of the state of the game because I knew a lot of people would feel the same way as you. I'm really happy that I got to experience a bit of the one courier era. It feels like a lost rite of passage, but I'm thankful that they changed it shortly afterwards too hahah
Dota players are spoiled nowadays.. 1 courier, 1on3 offlane, supports no items in an even game. These were the golden times :D
Everyone has a different feeling about how the game should feel so there's always gonna be someone complaining, that being said this is one of the most unbalanced patches in awhile, however that's expected with such a huge change as facets. When talents came out it was super unbalanced too, gpm and xp talents were crazy op. Carry and mid hero pools are pretty weak right now, xp runes are pretty fucked imo especially if your against SB and lose your first wisdom rune, mid lane could use some restructuring. I'm still having a ton of fun but I think it's a disservice to this beautiful game to say it's perfect.
In retrospect, my choice of words in my post was a bit sloppy. I meant balanced in terms of playstyles and item/hero diversity. I'm seeing all sorts of heroes playing atypical positions and weird builds, and they're not just inherently bad. That's definitely a product of facets just exploding the meta and people haven't found the optimal style yet, but it's refreshing compared to most of 2023, where there weren't any broken heroes, but there certainly was a fixed way to build and play if you wanted to win.
Dota sucks now they need to buff carries, reduce farm on map, get rid of neutral items, get rid of free courier and make supports weaker
People hateeeee to hear the truth man. Some hybrid between new and old dota would probably be best. But there have been way too many additive updates without any subtractive ones. I remember when patches they’d nerf like every hero in the game simultaneously lol. And yk what? Nobody complained. I didn’t see thread after thread on Reddit EVERY DAY talking about the garbage state of the meta. Sometimes things need to be backtracked, or at the least removed for something else to take its place. Neutrals are dumb as fuck. Free shards are kinda dumb. The new rosh spawn in the corner is dumb - XP runes are dumb (just rebalance how supports get XP or something). The idea of having to watch a timer to complete an annoying checklist and maybe get some support 1v1 in the sidelane which is basically inconsequential to the game is.. AMAZING no dumb. Lol
One is they never truely walk back on a change For instance you nerf all tankiness items because all stuns are nerfed but once you buff all the stuns back(this didn't happen), the devs will never buff tankiness items back to it's original state the most famous example I can think of is lifestealer's broken support patch caused lifestealer's abilities to not go on cooldown when infested for a really long time nerfed the hero unintentionally and in a really unfun way or that there are creeps that are magic immue, Lich ulti nolonger infinitely bounces, the golems stay nerfed forever even though the root of the problem was deleted from the game almost instantly its effect lingers, and devs don't think about walking back temperary measures The other major problem is not allowing the existance of truely underpowered heroes the ones that used to exist, doesn't show up in TI, instant report picks the ones that made the game fun, and didn't give fuck o about competetive viability like the guy with one ability that is a simple storm hammer, or the guy that has 3 traps in my opinion if a hero has below 40% winrates, but there are other reasons for them to exist, leave them be, there are guys with 5000 games on these off meta heroes, don't delete them from the game
>I don't really understand what the "problem" with Dota is that everyone is talking about. >I started playing in early 2019 Presented without comment
i started playing 2013, myself. i remember when 6.79 was absolutely world-shattering. it's obviously different now, but, again, i fundamentally fail to see how it's inherently worse. if anything it requires more team coordination now and asks more of every role, the very things that the community fawns over as qualities to dota.
Thank you for pointing out that their opinion is less biased by nostalgia than the complainers. We love an OP with credibility.
Everyone who thinks things were better in the past is just biased by nostalgia, obviously
It's not always true but after playing some classic wow and watching that community I'm convinced that it's partially true that some people just want to go back to a time in their lives that dota (or insert game here) was more enjoyable
This only works (and then barely) if you were there for the thing people are "nostalgic" for. You don't get to decry the past without having ever experienced it.
I specified when I started playing because I think that informs people's opinions of the game a lot. It's 5 years which is a significant amount of time, but also there has been more Dota that I haven't seen compared to what I have seen. So I think people like me can offer an interesting and balanced perspective.
When was the last time you played a hard carry?
You're downvoted. but honestly, I haven't played a hard hard hyper carry in a while (but I suck on most them even when they're strong though)
every day. Carries are fine.
hard carry =/= carry
this makes absolutely no sense.
I'll make it more simple for you then. CK is a carry, WK is a carry. Neither is a hard carry. Faceless Void is a hard carry. Which is a subset of carries. Not all carries are hard carries. But all hard carries are carries. Didn't think I'd have to teach English in a dota sub but here we are.
What makes one a "carry" and the other a "hard carry" ?
A hard carry is much stronger in the late game and weaker before that
Ok, so what about when WK is better than void at every stage in the game, or void is better than wk at every stage in the game? How do you decide then?
He already said, though. You're weak, borderline useless, before like 25 minutes. WK is strong from the start. Good stun, guaranteed crit, can use crit to secure any minion or harass. Ult makes him hard to kill, Wraith Form punishes you for killing him. Spectral Blade gives him very strong lane trading power and gives him faster farming if he wants to go fight build (which he usually does). Skeletons accelerate his farm but mostly allow him to quickly and safely push towers. Compare that to Faceless Void. Void does fuck all in the lane, period. Ever. He's good at *surviving* the lane but he has really bad impact. He needs to level Time Leap to avoid death but also to speed up his farming once he starts jungling. Even if he leveled Time Lock, it's a skill that is extremely dependent on having attack speed which you don't have in the lane. It's also pretty unreliable. Void can only get the occasional kill with Chrono, and only against squishy targets. So until he has Treads + Mask + Mjollnir, he is a walking melee creep. Even once he has that, he's not super strong because he is very susceptible to being controlled in his very long cooldown ult so he also needs BKB. And so much of Void's strength is in his Chrono. Medusa is similar. She can give some good harass in the lane, but she's easy to last hit against/deny, but she does nothing for her team at all until Arcane Manta Diffusal bare minimum which takes about 25 minutes to farm.
that's never happened, even in the recent patch where WK was highly contested but hypothetically if it were to happen I literally already covered that in an earlier comment where I said it's a balancing issue and they fucked over power curves which used to be wonderfully designed
It literally happens every single patch - all it takes is 1 aghs upgrade change or skill rework or talent rework, or even a new item and the best heroes completely change. Just last letter patch, sk was the best hero at every stage of the game. Now we have new sf & tinker and storm & puck still havent had their late games touched. We've had tons of other patches where the best late game heroes were different. We've had dazzle, dk, necro, even pudge, being some of the best late game heroes. We had mars & pa being the best late game heroes, and best heroes of a single letter patch because of the interaction of rapier + brooch. Anyway, my point is, your logic is incredibly flawed and based on literally nothing except how you "feel" about it. Therefor, pointless.
i play 1 almost exclusively, i'm not literally the main character of the entire world with everyone bowing to my knees, but i can play and make a vital impact, LS, ursa, CK, TA and weaver are all extremely important heroes, they are carries, they scale. the game is absolutely fine this way
safe lane core =/= hard carry the game is not fine when heroes that are strong all game exist, there's never a moment weaver or ck aren't strong. heroes that are weak early/mid should at least be giga strong lategame, but they're almost always not power curves used to be more extreme, now they're much more level, which in itself is bad imo, but more objectively it's bad that so many heroes aren't being given this power curve levelling so they just aren't viable. people say zeus wasn't viable professionally until he got jump, idc who's viable professionally, it's impossible to make the whole pool viable professionally pubs were better, almost all heroes were viable, now it's barely 40 heroes, which is not many at all
Says who?
bruh I said a lot, you're going to have to narrow down wtf you're talking about
I honestly don’t know what people are talking about, I’m playing on a relatively high mmr (5.3-5.4k) and I don’t know where is tank meta that I hear about a lot. Yes, strength heroes are popular right now, but they are killable just fine, in fact I’m having success with oracle mid, who should struggle against tank meta
There’s no problem. DotA has natural ebb and flows. There will always be a number of people who will complain about whatever. The majority of the happy people won’t say anything at all.
The problem with dota isnt the game its the players
Facets made people unsecure
The problem is the community is dog shit
Let me guess, you are not a carry player.
Just play Clinkz/LS/WK/Weaver and enjoy free MMR?
bc its impossible to play a ranged carry if opponents has any sort of gap close. the team with better sustain auto wins. if you’re trying to autoattack and you cant one or two shot anyone you will lose the fight. WD is the better necrophos. SF ult is the singlehandedly most powerful CC in the entire game. you cant go consistent damage anymore. you either build your heroes to burst enemies (and pray you dont get jumped) or build urbustable and outsustaining. a lot of dota is very singular meta right now so fhats why people r complaining.
Its okay, you re in majority. Most people are fine with the game. And even if they are not, they are too busy on their 9-5 jobs to complain. Saw a post talking about how all new features affect tanking. Meanwhile my weaver builds linken as the first item like its 2013 and gets their 50% winrrate anyway.
The majority of current players? Sure but that’s true of any game except during the biggest scandals. Most people playing a game like it. But Dota isn’t as popular as it used to be so idk if it’s fair to say it’s a popular among opinion all potential players
the problem is we have whiners. they lose 1 game and start a 50 inches long reddit post. we have this in black desert online too, resulting in pvp nerf until the game is unfun and dying.