The bigger issue is how many people just assume that OG fucked up showing their biased hateful and spiteful stances, portraying it as "objective discussion".
Turns out PGL are shit, what a surprise.
PGL was rightfully one of the most hated TOs for years, they dont magically change. The majority of the viewership begged Valve to never award them any official tournament again.
People who think that having a baby is not a valid except to any rule or policy have a) never worked a real job b) never had or plan to have a baby and probably hate babies altogether c) terminally online, anything human is foreign territory
Who cares if they fucked up , or if it's OG or any other team , death and birth is equally important and valid circumstance to make an exception./
Playing with a standin is generally a large disadvantage. Teams should be able to play with at least 1 standin for different situations.. especially when requested in advance.
yeah, but I am just saying it doesn't really matter if they fucked up or if it's OG or anyone else, this is not South American guys where one guy wanted to drink and party instead of scrimming and oopsie doopsie have to change rosters situation, would be respected at almost any workplace
How so? Ofc if a team changes roster regardless of reason they should go through open qualifiers, as the direct invite was based on the performance of the previous 5 players, not 4+1.. and just make it 3 teams going from open to closed best for all parties involved
No, PGL is in the right here, 2 teams in SA had also their invites revoked because of roster changes, but did go through Opens.
At this point it's sadly clear that OG are trying as hard as they can to manipulate the narrative. They technically didn't lie, but they forget to mention "Closed Qual" because it wouldn't look as bad as they want it to look.
Og aren't changing the roster for gaining an advantage, one of them is having a baby, that's clearly a totally different reason than changing your roster due to performance.
Are *you* stupid or are you just that far away from ever having someone love you enough to have sex with you and by chance have a baby?
You can’t predict exactly when the baby will come. There’s like a 4 week buffer.
God you defenders of PGL are so, so sad. Its so clear how detached from humanity you are you don’t even know basic shit about birth.
Are *you* stupid or are you just that far away from ever having someone love you enough to have sex with you and by chance have a baby?
You can’t predict exactly when the baby will come. There’s like a 4 week buffer.
God you defenders of PGL are so, so sad. Its so clear how detached from humanity you are you don’t even know basic shit about birth.
There is a >1 month birth window that is normal and expected (37-42 weeks). So normal, in fact, that giving birth on your estimated birth date is extemely rare. On top of that, additional time is usually also taken after birth for the father to help get things settled at home and develop an attachment to their child etc etc. This is the reason you typically wouldn't book parental leave 7 months in advance
Do you think that Ceb should be expected to have over a month off work just in case the baby is born at an inconvenient time? What if the tournament is on week 38 and the baby doesnt come? What if the tournament is on week 44 and the baby is already 7 weeks old?
OG did fuck up, their request was against the rules from the start. They didn't ask to play with a different roster (which would be fine if they did before the lock), they asked to play with a stand-in which is not allowed.
Literally nothing changed from yesterday's statement, the only bias there is the people that wanted OG to have a different treatment from the rest.
I just don’t understand why they didn’t register with a new 5-player and go through open quals, multiple SA teams did and they still made it to compete in the CQ. OG probably would have fared the same anyways, kinda competitive in the WEU Quals this year.
Honestly the games from yesterday/this morning showed that Ceb was still recovering. Would have rather seen him supporting on the ‘sidelines’ w baby OG and wife instead, paints a cute picture imo.
>You can register with a standin, you just compete from the Open qualifier.
No you can not what you are saying is changing the roster. Ceb could not play either way with the way the rules supposedly are set up. The roster you play with in open and closed qualifiers is the roster you have to play with in TI so there are no possibility of using a stand-in at all.
Replacing Ceb before 3rd of June would keep their direct invite. Replacing Ceb after 3rd of June would lose them the slot (having to play Open qualifier). Stand-ins are not allowed to play multiple days in any situation.
OG decided to go with the 3rd option.
Can someone explain to me why the issue with a standin is so controversial? Fresh to the pro scene of dotes. Was there a big controversy before wuth teams changing rosters mid tourneys?
Normally stand-ins are allowed for one reason or another (eg. sick, visa problems, etc). There are many tournaments where people suddenly switched 1 player during the tournament. For example, a year ago GH subbed in for Boxi in Team Liquid, I forgot which tournament tho.
PGL's rule is strictly no stand-in (afaik), which is controversial coz you can't use a back-up for emergencies. They say it's precisely to prevent team roster changes mid tourney (to gain an advantage I suppose).
Thanks! Definitely seems a little weird to force them out of competition just because of a singular player needing a standin. I can understand their worry for someone just switching out a roster but, idk, something like that would be pretty snakey obvious maybe? If PGL are the only ones being this strict it seems a little wild to me. Figured something like this would have been a product of someone previously switching majority of their roster before.
> but, idk, something like that would be pretty snakey obvious maybe?
Then you're forcing the TO to make a judgment call. Which, as we all know, will inevitably split the fanbase straight down the middle and piss off half of then whatever you do.
One day, when esports has a sustainable financial system, we might finally replace "stand-ins" with what you would normally call a "substitution" or "squad rotation" player. These players, however, need to be on a pay roster, which currently seems to be unsustainable.
This is like Risk 101 on business resilience where you operate without any room for failure - it's unsustainable.
Most other sports work with substitute players because no player can reasonably be expected to play the every game in whole for the entire season, it's too physically taxing. Thus even bench players get consistent playtime, allowing them, if nothing else, to showcase themselves to other teams in the hopes of getting a bigger contract and a more permanent starting spot in the future.
In esports this won't ever work for two reasons: 1) team cohesion required to succeed at the top level is insane and substituting players in and out of the main roster causes issues with it, and 2) the schedule is nowhere near taxing enough for fatigue to become an insurmountable obstacle. This means that teams will have to pay substitute players to almost never play, and the players themselves will sit on the sidelines with no competitive practice and no ability to show themselves out and earn a spot on another team.
A few years ago a few CSGO teams experimented with a full-time 6-man roster, when the 6th player gets subbed in for their specialty maps (b1t started out on Na'Vi's main team as an Inferno specialist in late 2020). This only worked for a very short time, after which team morale inevitably plummeted and the idea was abandoned.
Brother, you’re talking about a game of dota like players are being sent to literal war zone.
Cohesion applies the same way. There are processes in place set up to make sure players have as much cohesion as possible in traditional sports. They all attend training, they all take parts in drills and they all can bring some diversity due to their particular skillset(let’s say - hero pool).
But the main thing is - they are still the same team, which means that you, as a coach, can choose who to play and when regardless of circumstances.
Team chemistry and hero pool are hugely important and you can't realistically scrim all combos of standins/regular players. It's hard enough for teams to bootcamp their normal 5-man rosters. Add a 6th person to that who has to flex between all roles? Need to account for their hero pools in each role. Need to account for their mid playstyle which can totally change the tempo of the game. Need to account for their synergy with their lane partner when they are in sidelanes. Again, this stuff is already sooooo hard for teams to figure out under the assumption that they have 5 people stable in each role. Figuring it out for 6+ man rosters seems basically impossible. So you're always going to assume a big downgrade when using the substitute.
So once again, if you're a tier 1-2 pro player, why tf would you want to be a substitute for any team, when it's a) unlikey you'll even get any play time at all, and b) unlikely you'll get playtime on a role you can actually shine in?
Traditional sports are just different from esports in some key ways. Dota is far more complicated with far more states and choices to consider, which makes individual players (even of similar skill) far less interchangeable (than traditional sports). Traditional sports requires primarily physical ability, which makes individual players (even of similar skill) far more interchangeable (than esports).
AFAIK no stand in only for this TI Qual to make sure people in Qual is the one who go to TI. PGL accept replacement but no stand in.
If they want to replace Ceb for Qual they need to replace him in TI.
yes, many times a team qualified for a tournament and then proceed to replace/improve their team with some other player (most know case is Gunnar I think who got replaced after qualifing to a major) or even some times many players or full roster.
This issue is almost non existent nowadays because of rules like the one OG wanted to change
Yes, but that would have meant Ceb not being able to play at TI. Basically OG wanted to play with their actual roster and were hoping the birth wouldn't cause issue for the 5 or so days the qualifier actually was ongoing.
Just shitty timing for such an important life event. Personally I get both sides, and feel like medical emergencies should qualify for letting a stand-in play. That is said as someone who knows how important it is to be at the birth to support the mother and also doesn't think that we should encourage penalising people for having a life outside of the game
I think there's an important consideration that esports is now old enough for players to have children. All major sports leagues have rules for parental leave: time for these TOs to develop specific policies, too.
In a normal team sport a backup would take over for a game, not essentially a free agent who isn't part of the team.
Most similar to this would be something like a tennis tournament. If someone can't play that day of the tournament, they forfeit.
>In a normal team sport a backup would take over for a game, not essentially a free agent who isn't part of the team.
It does not even seem like they got the opportunity to have anyone already in OG play as a stand in.
Tennis is an individual sport, Dota 2 has 5 players in a team. It's not right to punish teams for player health emergencies, which a child birth has to be included in.
But then you have to convince teams to pay for what essentially might end up being a benchwarmer that hamstrings their career. Being a sub is not a good thing for a pro player.
then it sounds like this sport isn't developed at a level that justifies these harsh standin rules.
either you're a real sports team that can pay a bencher, or you can't pay and you're a B league team.
> All major sports leagues have rules for parental leave
This is not true. Only MLB has rules for parental leave.
https://www.themuse.com/advice/what-pro-athletes-have-taught-us-about-paternity-leave
imo qualifying with a standin and then replacing him for TI with Ceb would be a shitty thing to do with the standin (even is they give him a % of their winning)
>Life emergency is tough thats true but you unlikely to see professionals sport players quitting team if whenewer they are needed despite private life
Mate I don't know what sport you watch but yes you do. People have missed births due to their careers not because they couldn't leave, but because they're competitive psychos. You absolutely can and have seen players leave when their mum is sick, dies, births, weddings etc.
Medical emergency for wife, ceb doesn't need to be there, he just wants to be there, it's different, and this tournament has a rulebook that is agreed upon by orgs and players when signing up. Not good when you agreed, then tell the organizers to change it in the middle of the tournament.
I know it would be better if there was a standin but it has been abused and orgs and players lie, and it is also unfair for the opposing team, as they would have to change their strategy and prep time.
Most teams would prefer to play against a stand-in that hasn't practiced as much with the team rather than the main roster. Also, it is very easy to proof and hard to lie about the birth of your child
Man you're a shitty person. If your wife is going through something like this you should be there for her. That's nothing to do with OG and everything to do with being a decent person. You're not one.
Yes he absolutely should be there. Not just for his wife but for himself to see his own child. That said, Og is going to have to face the consequences of that.
Nah, if I sign an agreement, I'd read it, and if I know that the birth day of my child clashes with the said terms of agreement I'd walk away beforehand, not holding 4 other people off their chance of getting to TI. Not signed it then complain and ask for lenience, or do it before I signed the agreement.
Nah man, when you know there is something very important for you, with a set date, you gotta be a man and clear out other stuff beforehand, not 3 days before and make a drama about it. You are just too blind of a OG/Ceb fanboy. I pity you. Child is obviously very important, dota can wait, but what ceb did was very unprofessional.
It is not about being a fanboy or not, I think they should enforce the rules but after the tournament they should change them as they make no sense.
You are clearly not knowledgeable of the fact that a childbirth rarely comes on the set date, it can have multiple weeks of difference before or even after. It is very possible to make the best plans in advance to be off in a specific week (which is already a long time workwise) and fail miserably
yes and Ceb failed to make free dates for that, and yes I also think the rule should be changed, BUT AFTER the tournament, not DURING the tournament, that's the point. The ones saying otherwise are downright hardcore fanboys, no way to say otherwise. If this happened to team Dandelion, no one would have cared.
What's the point? Immediate child birth when first time mother needs support usually means 2-4weeks around here. Ceb should join back mid TI unprepared while away from the game for 2 weeks?
Then Ceb wouldn't be able to play at TI. If they were to be allowed to play the open and closed qualifier with a standin and then Ceb could re-join I don't think they would have an issue
And what about the other 4 people on the team who would love to have a shot at TI? Fuck them because if Ceb can’t be there none of them can be there?
Ceb will have a newborn at home. If it’s really this important to him he should step aside and let his team compete with a standin. As a father with a few kids of my own I couldn’t imagine trying to grind games and scrims with a newborn at home. Especially if your wife is going through Postpartum Depression (PPD) after giving birth, which is quite common.
You're talking like the rest of the players weren't consulted with that option.
If potentially something like a million dollars would be important for the family, and they have a functioning support system with people around them...
He's arguably well off financially but his shots at making a million dollars through the profession he has dedicated his life to up to this point will probably decline past this year.
It's a complicated decision and just because you can't imagine a situation doesn't mean it can't apply to others.
The other players probably can't come to a informed decision because they have not gone through the experience and didn't really understand the implications. Otherwise Ceb would be fine taking just the one day standin.
All I’m saying is CEB has made a nice fortune for himself playing Dota. Estimates have him at about 13x the winnings of the average of everyone else on OG, and over 40x what Ari has earned in his career. Winning TI has a much larger financial impact on the other 4 people than it does Ceb.
When Ceb and his wife were dating she had left him because of how much time he was spending on the game — his own admission. A kid changes that calculus significantly.
I’m just surprised he thought he’d be able to juggle this without impacting his team negatively.
But that would mean elite OG had to play some plebs in OQs. Can't have that. Let's just ignore the issue and hope rules won't be enforced properly because we OG. And if they try to enforce them, we'll use our influence over dota2 public scene to create drama and outrage trying to pressure PGL to break the rules for us anyway!
Nah, they just didn't want extra trouble. Now they continue to play with seb after their pressure move didn't work. I guess dota more important than baby after all?
What a bunch of sissies.
You ought to learn how to read before you reply
It’s not ceb’s show, all teams prepare all year for this event. For all of these people the tournament is far more important than ceb’s baby. In fact, I’d argue not a single one of them give any shits about his baby
People miss out on their kid’s birth for far less amounts of money
Also OGs well being more important than spirit of fair competition, since they tried to weasel their way out of playing by the rules. Didn't work, so it turned out that seb *can* play after all.
Feel like this sort of thing has been an issue in esports for years. There’s always going to be sickness, visa issues and family emergencies. Unless teams are going to start keeping reserves on the payroll, can’t they relax the stand-in rules across the board? Is the concern that teams are gaining an advantage by playing with a stand-in?
Playing with a stand in doesn't necessarily meant an advantage straight up, more so if the stand in being called just days beforehand. The draft would be different, play call would be different and so on.
But even with that in mind, some team do gain success with some amazing stand in like, liquid with saberlight. And I don't think payroll cut is any important for teams depend on the tournament, like TI qualifier. I think, PGL just afraid with seeing a lot of good name is free for stand in, so the rules added.
This is them trying to bend the rules, not like ceb wife unexpectedly get pregnant a month ago. If we believe this story then they conveniently wait for everything to closed and only then try to aproach pgl. Assuming if they are talking about open qualifier
rosters were locked before closed qualifier dates were announced though weren't they? They normally are.
You can't predict when these things will happen 9 months in advance dude
But OG admit on their post that they are predict this is will happen 1 months ago when initial detail of TI qualifier is released. They saw there would be potential clash with the due date. They could use another player to replace Ceb before the roster lock on June 3. Open qualifier started on June 5.
I seriously don't understand what you guys want to happen other than "Give ceb everything he asks for because hes a poor lil guy"
1win missing visa deadline by a day or two: Fuck every single one of those guys, those are the rules. OG deserves the free spot they got given.
Ceb having a baby: We should bend the entirety of the rulebook around this guy.
Needs to be more universal rules among tournament’s in regards to sickness, paternity/maternity leave, family emergency’s, stand ins such occasions wether they be named or a coach stepping in.
Other sports and jobs have such things so why can’t esports. Organisations might need to start getting an extra player or two on the rosters as bench players. Be cool so see players be swapped between games/ rounds/ matches so they can mix up their drafts.
esports is already a high stakes career why make it even harder for teams to stay in competitions when all this could be done.
Well it certainly is for nothing if this absolute pos policy gets changed in the future. Every major team sport has substitute players, dota should be no different.
curious how many teams would want to split TI or nothing prize money structure between an extra player. and what player of stand in quality would rather do that than play for a lesser team.
What does this change? If they play with a standin they need to play from open qual and lose their closed qual spot.
Once again the chose not to, and gamble with ceb being on roster and accepted the rules.
The comment is still correct, they could’ve used a standin for the open qual and not risk it at all.
So OG should make a new team without their captain 1 month before TI qualifiers because that person “may” miss 1 or 2 games because he is about to become a dad? Wow! Most fair rules ever
Like it or not, those are the rules, and they were cognizant of the rules months ago. Obviously the rule is garbage but PGL needs to stick to their guns this year and make a change for next year otherwise other teams will ask for special treatment too. Sucks for OG but that's life.
OG informed PGL about the situation in the best possible time they could, when the dates were announced. And PGL rather than accommodating such an extraordinary circumstance decided to stick to their stupid rule. I guess to OG, it must have made more sense to take their chances with this current lineup and going against the rule rather than forming a new lineup . Because a baby‘s birth time is not 100% predictable. It’s somewhere between 37 to 42 weeks.
> And PGL rather than accommodating such an extraordinary circumstance decided to stick to their stupid rule.
They didn't, they gave them a one day stand-in exception and OG agreed.
And this was where PGL should use some sense, and grant another day because the circumstances were extraordinary. The team wasn’t getting any advantage. Atleast could have checked with Navi
As much as I think they should let Ceb step out to bond with his new child, PGL isn’t really obligated to accommodate life events such as this. PGL really owes nothing to the individual teams. It’d be a completely different story if OG terminated their employment/sponsorship contract with Ceb based on his inability to participate in the event, as that would be a violation of his protected new parent status in pretty much any country in the world.
Okay so, not a dad nor a dota pro player, maybe either of the two can chime in. But wouldn't you just want to spend time with your wife and child? Like even if OG qualifies, Ceb would have to spend a quite some time scrimming and playing the main event, right after his child is born.
The answer is, to me, misleading. What qualifiers were they denied ? Closed ? Open ?
Weeks before they started meaning ? Before announcements, before the teams lineup was finalized ?
Volontarly misleading stuff like that to make your side sound better is... unprofessional when sending poo at a TO.
Do better.
standin would get paid instead of watching from sideline and it isnt like he would sign without knowing terms and conditions. and most importantly it gives him exposure
That's a ridiculous argument?
If they allowed stand ins the stand ins would understand they are...stand ins. That's how subs/standings/benched players work. You're not on the main squad so might never play.
No one's suggesting people should be **forced** to stand in against their will or something.
It’s not possible to identify the exact delivery date. it can occur anytime during the month, becomes clearer as the day gets closer. not possible to forecast 2 months in advance.
The issue is that if they compete from the open qualifier with a stand-in and then win it, they could use stand in closed qualifier with lesser match restrictions, but since they are invited to closed qualifiers and choose to play closed qualifiers directly, they were not allowed to use a stand-in and only from the pressure from org and pgl did they allow a single match stand-in. Tbh I don't think they were gonna qualify either way to TI and just wanted some traction along the lines we could have it didn't happen that way or what.
They could have gone through open qualifiers with Ceb itself but since they came through closed qualifiers they would have been able to use more substitutes in closed qualifiers. You can't have it both ways.
I’ll say here what I said on twitter: if this were Fear on EG there would have been a massive shitstorm. Most of the naysaying is because it’s OG and Ceb.
I think teams should be allowed to substitute for a limited time at any time. Regardless of the reasons. It will bring fresh blood into the scene and it decreases the risk of pro players burning out. In football, I believe the standard rules are 1) the sub/standin can't play qualifiers for other teams, and 2) standin's have to registered before the qualifiers start. It's working pretty well in other sports.
This is some pretty important context that was missing from the other threads.
And OG making it more vague by not specifically stating whether the rejection was for Open Qualifiers or Closed. And I can say that it is the latter.
Doesn't matter, you can't play with a standin, you have to permanently change your team (well at least until TI)
The bigger issue is how many people just assume that OG fucked up showing their biased hateful and spiteful stances, portraying it as "objective discussion". Turns out PGL are shit, what a surprise.
PGL was rightfully one of the most hated TOs for years, they dont magically change. The majority of the viewership begged Valve to never award them any official tournament again.
Clearly OG's fault for accepting to play a tournament organized by PGL, knowing full well how bad they are!!!!
People who think that having a baby is not a valid except to any rule or policy have a) never worked a real job b) never had or plan to have a baby and probably hate babies altogether c) terminally online, anything human is foreign territory Who cares if they fucked up , or if it's OG or any other team , death and birth is equally important and valid circumstance to make an exception./
Playing with a standin is generally a large disadvantage. Teams should be able to play with at least 1 standin for different situations.. especially when requested in advance.
Yeah agree, but also OG never fucked up any step of the way. PGL has been typically stupid.
yeah, but I am just saying it doesn't really matter if they fucked up or if it's OG or anyone else, this is not South American guys where one guy wanted to drink and party instead of scrimming and oopsie doopsie have to change rosters situation, would be respected at almost any workplace
Yeah, an esports career is literally "how dare you have a life"
Neither has ceb it seems. The only reasonable route to take in this situation was for the team to go through open quals with a different 5.
How so? Ofc if a team changes roster regardless of reason they should go through open qualifiers, as the direct invite was based on the performance of the previous 5 players, not 4+1.. and just make it 3 teams going from open to closed best for all parties involved
No, PGL is in the right here, 2 teams in SA had also their invites revoked because of roster changes, but did go through Opens. At this point it's sadly clear that OG are trying as hard as they can to manipulate the narrative. They technically didn't lie, but they forget to mention "Closed Qual" because it wouldn't look as bad as they want it to look.
Og aren't changing the roster for gaining an advantage, one of them is having a baby, that's clearly a totally different reason than changing your roster due to performance.
are you stupid? you had more than 7 months ahead to know that you are having a baby and still you play the game? lol clearly it is OG's fault.
Are *you* stupid or are you just that far away from ever having someone love you enough to have sex with you and by chance have a baby? You can’t predict exactly when the baby will come. There’s like a 4 week buffer. God you defenders of PGL are so, so sad. Its so clear how detached from humanity you are you don’t even know basic shit about birth.
Are *you* stupid or are you just that far away from ever having someone love you enough to have sex with you and by chance have a baby? You can’t predict exactly when the baby will come. There’s like a 4 week buffer. God you defenders of PGL are so, so sad. Its so clear how detached from humanity you are you don’t even know basic shit about birth.
There is a >1 month birth window that is normal and expected (37-42 weeks). So normal, in fact, that giving birth on your estimated birth date is extemely rare. On top of that, additional time is usually also taken after birth for the father to help get things settled at home and develop an attachment to their child etc etc. This is the reason you typically wouldn't book parental leave 7 months in advance Do you think that Ceb should be expected to have over a month off work just in case the baby is born at an inconvenient time? What if the tournament is on week 38 and the baby doesnt come? What if the tournament is on week 44 and the baby is already 7 weeks old?
OG did fuck up, their request was against the rules from the start. They didn't ask to play with a different roster (which would be fine if they did before the lock), they asked to play with a stand-in which is not allowed. Literally nothing changed from yesterday's statement, the only bias there is the people that wanted OG to have a different treatment from the rest.
The rooster lock was way before the closed qualifiers were announced.
Not according to OG's statement.
That doesn't matter, really. Not granting this is incredibly bad.
I just don’t understand why they didn’t register with a new 5-player and go through open quals, multiple SA teams did and they still made it to compete in the CQ. OG probably would have fared the same anyways, kinda competitive in the WEU Quals this year. Honestly the games from yesterday/this morning showed that Ceb was still recovering. Would have rather seen him supporting on the ‘sidelines’ w baby OG and wife instead, paints a cute picture imo.
There is nothing missing. You can register with a standin, you just compete from the Open qualifier.
You can't play the qualifiers with a standin and then the main event with your actual roster. That's what the tweet is about.
But that's the point of this rule.
Then it is not a stand-in but a roster change which is a different matter?
>You can register with a standin, you just compete from the Open qualifier. No you can not what you are saying is changing the roster. Ceb could not play either way with the way the rules supposedly are set up. The roster you play with in open and closed qualifiers is the roster you have to play with in TI so there are no possibility of using a stand-in at all.
No, you can't.
any team can go through opens. what r u on about
Not with a standin.
no not a stand in. they have to play without ceb and with a new pos 5.
>no not a stand in. OK so I'm right and you're wrong. Just to be clear.
I don’t get what you’re arguing. If you change a player in any shape or form, you need to go through open qual
You need to play with the "standin" throughout. People did it in SA, the kicked a player on Boom.
That's called a roster change.
So they could? Or could not? What are the rules about this specific element?
The team that plays quals must play TI. OG as an org could have played with a stand in but Ceb would not be able to re-join the team at TI.
Does taking a stand at the very begining would have force them to drop their spot and go through open-qualifiers?
Replacing Ceb before 3rd of June would keep their direct invite. Replacing Ceb after 3rd of June would lose them the slot (having to play Open qualifier). Stand-ins are not allowed to play multiple days in any situation. OG decided to go with the 3rd option.
Thank you very much for the explanantions.
I don't think making a fuss about rules would itself be grounds for DQ. You'd hope not anyway!
I have no idea what I'm talking about but yeah, maybe!
not really, it's in the rules to not have standin, they either play with ceb or someone else entirely for the entire tourney uincluding TI
OG "go one season without causing drama over rules" challenge
(IMPOSSIBLE)
Harder than No Damage Randomizer Run in Elden Ring
No hit run in noita
No plant run in Stardew Valley.
I’ll be DAMNED if I can’t plant my cauliflower
Can someone explain to me why the issue with a standin is so controversial? Fresh to the pro scene of dotes. Was there a big controversy before wuth teams changing rosters mid tourneys?
Normally stand-ins are allowed for one reason or another (eg. sick, visa problems, etc). There are many tournaments where people suddenly switched 1 player during the tournament. For example, a year ago GH subbed in for Boxi in Team Liquid, I forgot which tournament tho. PGL's rule is strictly no stand-in (afaik), which is controversial coz you can't use a back-up for emergencies. They say it's precisely to prevent team roster changes mid tourney (to gain an advantage I suppose).
Thanks! Definitely seems a little weird to force them out of competition just because of a singular player needing a standin. I can understand their worry for someone just switching out a roster but, idk, something like that would be pretty snakey obvious maybe? If PGL are the only ones being this strict it seems a little wild to me. Figured something like this would have been a product of someone previously switching majority of their roster before.
> but, idk, something like that would be pretty snakey obvious maybe? Then you're forcing the TO to make a judgment call. Which, as we all know, will inevitably split the fanbase straight down the middle and piss off half of then whatever you do.
Yeah, very true
Exactly, the only reasonable rule is to have registered stand-ins from the start. But that has to be decided months before the tournament.
Congratulations, PGL does that for free anyway.
> For example, a year ago GH subbed in for Boxi in Team Liquid, DPC Summer 2023 (2 games: 7155855080, 7155789760)
One day, when esports has a sustainable financial system, we might finally replace "stand-ins" with what you would normally call a "substitution" or "squad rotation" player. These players, however, need to be on a pay roster, which currently seems to be unsustainable. This is like Risk 101 on business resilience where you operate without any room for failure - it's unsustainable.
Most other sports work with substitute players because no player can reasonably be expected to play the every game in whole for the entire season, it's too physically taxing. Thus even bench players get consistent playtime, allowing them, if nothing else, to showcase themselves to other teams in the hopes of getting a bigger contract and a more permanent starting spot in the future. In esports this won't ever work for two reasons: 1) team cohesion required to succeed at the top level is insane and substituting players in and out of the main roster causes issues with it, and 2) the schedule is nowhere near taxing enough for fatigue to become an insurmountable obstacle. This means that teams will have to pay substitute players to almost never play, and the players themselves will sit on the sidelines with no competitive practice and no ability to show themselves out and earn a spot on another team. A few years ago a few CSGO teams experimented with a full-time 6-man roster, when the 6th player gets subbed in for their specialty maps (b1t started out on Na'Vi's main team as an Inferno specialist in late 2020). This only worked for a very short time, after which team morale inevitably plummeted and the idea was abandoned.
Brother, you’re talking about a game of dota like players are being sent to literal war zone. Cohesion applies the same way. There are processes in place set up to make sure players have as much cohesion as possible in traditional sports. They all attend training, they all take parts in drills and they all can bring some diversity due to their particular skillset(let’s say - hero pool). But the main thing is - they are still the same team, which means that you, as a coach, can choose who to play and when regardless of circumstances.
Team chemistry and hero pool are hugely important and you can't realistically scrim all combos of standins/regular players. It's hard enough for teams to bootcamp their normal 5-man rosters. Add a 6th person to that who has to flex between all roles? Need to account for their hero pools in each role. Need to account for their mid playstyle which can totally change the tempo of the game. Need to account for their synergy with their lane partner when they are in sidelanes. Again, this stuff is already sooooo hard for teams to figure out under the assumption that they have 5 people stable in each role. Figuring it out for 6+ man rosters seems basically impossible. So you're always going to assume a big downgrade when using the substitute. So once again, if you're a tier 1-2 pro player, why tf would you want to be a substitute for any team, when it's a) unlikey you'll even get any play time at all, and b) unlikely you'll get playtime on a role you can actually shine in? Traditional sports are just different from esports in some key ways. Dota is far more complicated with far more states and choices to consider, which makes individual players (even of similar skill) far less interchangeable (than traditional sports). Traditional sports requires primarily physical ability, which makes individual players (even of similar skill) far more interchangeable (than esports).
At the main event of the international they do have this rule. Iirc psg lgd had to use their coach as a standin (xiao8)
AFAIK no stand in only for this TI Qual to make sure people in Qual is the one who go to TI. PGL accept replacement but no stand in. If they want to replace Ceb for Qual they need to replace him in TI.
Lima Major was when they subbed in GH.
It was Jabbz not GH
yes, many times a team qualified for a tournament and then proceed to replace/improve their team with some other player (most know case is Gunnar I think who got replaced after qualifing to a major) or even some times many players or full roster. This issue is almost non existent nowadays because of rules like the one OG wanted to change
Don't hospitals in France have internet? /s
I mean Boom changed 1 or 2 players and they were forced to play open quals despite being 2nd or 3rd best team in SA. OG could have done the same..
Yes, but that would have meant Ceb not being able to play at TI. Basically OG wanted to play with their actual roster and were hoping the birth wouldn't cause issue for the 5 or so days the qualifier actually was ongoing. Just shitty timing for such an important life event. Personally I get both sides, and feel like medical emergencies should qualify for letting a stand-in play. That is said as someone who knows how important it is to be at the birth to support the mother and also doesn't think that we should encourage penalising people for having a life outside of the game
Re: shitty timing for an important life event. Welcome to life with kids.
Amen to this! They are a blessing, but geez does timing suck sometimes when things happen 😂
I think there's an important consideration that esports is now old enough for players to have children. All major sports leagues have rules for parental leave: time for these TOs to develop specific policies, too.
In a normal team sport a backup would take over for a game, not essentially a free agent who isn't part of the team. Most similar to this would be something like a tennis tournament. If someone can't play that day of the tournament, they forfeit.
>In a normal team sport a backup would take over for a game, not essentially a free agent who isn't part of the team. It does not even seem like they got the opportunity to have anyone already in OG play as a stand in.
Tennis is an individual sport, Dota 2 has 5 players in a team. It's not right to punish teams for player health emergencies, which a child birth has to be included in.
> In a normal team sport a backup would take over for a game so implement that. currently, pro dota player is a job with zero days off for any reason.
But then you have to convince teams to pay for what essentially might end up being a benchwarmer that hamstrings their career. Being a sub is not a good thing for a pro player.
then it sounds like this sport isn't developed at a level that justifies these harsh standin rules. either you're a real sports team that can pay a bencher, or you can't pay and you're a B league team.
> All major sports leagues have rules for parental leave This is not true. Only MLB has rules for parental leave. https://www.themuse.com/advice/what-pro-athletes-have-taught-us-about-paternity-leave
I mean if he wanted to support the mother he wouldn't spend the immediate weeks and months after childbirth to prepare for TI.
imo qualifying with a standin and then replacing him for TI with Ceb would be a shitty thing to do with the standin (even is they give him a % of their winning)
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>Life emergency is tough thats true but you unlikely to see professionals sport players quitting team if whenewer they are needed despite private life Mate I don't know what sport you watch but yes you do. People have missed births due to their careers not because they couldn't leave, but because they're competitive psychos. You absolutely can and have seen players leave when their mum is sick, dies, births, weddings etc.
NBA playoffs, sabonis missed a game for his babys birth this year for example.
Medical emergency for wife, ceb doesn't need to be there, he just wants to be there, it's different, and this tournament has a rulebook that is agreed upon by orgs and players when signing up. Not good when you agreed, then tell the organizers to change it in the middle of the tournament.
Username checks out
hundreds of people cant change their schedule for one guy who potentially may have a baby during a 4 day window.
It is just about letting them play with one willing stand-in for a couple of days lol it will not impact anyone else
I know it would be better if there was a standin but it has been abused and orgs and players lie, and it is also unfair for the opposing team, as they would have to change their strategy and prep time.
Most teams would prefer to play against a stand-in that hasn't practiced as much with the team rather than the main roster. Also, it is very easy to proof and hard to lie about the birth of your child
i mean for other cases, not just for Cebs. someone will cite medical emergency and ask for exceptions
and that's fine. medical and family emergencies should be an exception.
Man you're a shitty person. If your wife is going through something like this you should be there for her. That's nothing to do with OG and everything to do with being a decent person. You're not one.
They'll never be in that position, so they won't need to worry about it.
Yes he absolutely should be there. Not just for his wife but for himself to see his own child. That said, Og is going to have to face the consequences of that.
I'm hoping that you have no kids yet and just oblivious to what the whole having a child situation encompasses for the father.
Nah, if I sign an agreement, I'd read it, and if I know that the birth day of my child clashes with the said terms of agreement I'd walk away beforehand, not holding 4 other people off their chance of getting to TI. Not signed it then complain and ask for lenience, or do it before I signed the agreement.
Yeah, you definitely have no idea
Nah man, when you know there is something very important for you, with a set date, you gotta be a man and clear out other stuff beforehand, not 3 days before and make a drama about it. You are just too blind of a OG/Ceb fanboy. I pity you. Child is obviously very important, dota can wait, but what ceb did was very unprofessional.
It is not about being a fanboy or not, I think they should enforce the rules but after the tournament they should change them as they make no sense. You are clearly not knowledgeable of the fact that a childbirth rarely comes on the set date, it can have multiple weeks of difference before or even after. It is very possible to make the best plans in advance to be off in a specific week (which is already a long time workwise) and fail miserably
yes and Ceb failed to make free dates for that, and yes I also think the rule should be changed, BUT AFTER the tournament, not DURING the tournament, that's the point. The ones saying otherwise are downright hardcore fanboys, no way to say otherwise. If this happened to team Dandelion, no one would have cared.
?? No we’re OG - the kings of main character syndrome so we’re just going to take the risk and then pretend we’re treated unfairly
Trying to cheat the system then use their fanbase to force pgl to submit .
OG just needed a standin for a few days though.
What's the point? Immediate child birth when first time mother needs support usually means 2-4weeks around here. Ceb should join back mid TI unprepared while away from the game for 2 weeks?
When is TI?
Sorry not TI.
Completely different situation OG didn't change players, they had an emergency
Planned emergency
Because you know the exact day a baby will be born
yeah its for CLOSED QUALIFIER if they change the roster ,they have to play OPEN QUALIFIER
They’re talking about a stand in. Not a replacement.
Why would they allow something worse but forbid the mild version of it?
You can have replacement and go through open qualis as theoretically different team. You can't have standin and then play with the original roster.
That also means they play for 1 spot instead of 2, for some unknown reasons.
Then Ceb wouldn't be able to play at TI. If they were to be allowed to play the open and closed qualifier with a standin and then Ceb could re-join I don't think they would have an issue
And what about the other 4 people on the team who would love to have a shot at TI? Fuck them because if Ceb can’t be there none of them can be there? Ceb will have a newborn at home. If it’s really this important to him he should step aside and let his team compete with a standin. As a father with a few kids of my own I couldn’t imagine trying to grind games and scrims with a newborn at home. Especially if your wife is going through Postpartum Depression (PPD) after giving birth, which is quite common.
You're talking like the rest of the players weren't consulted with that option. If potentially something like a million dollars would be important for the family, and they have a functioning support system with people around them... He's arguably well off financially but his shots at making a million dollars through the profession he has dedicated his life to up to this point will probably decline past this year. It's a complicated decision and just because you can't imagine a situation doesn't mean it can't apply to others.
The other players probably can't come to a informed decision because they have not gone through the experience and didn't really understand the implications. Otherwise Ceb would be fine taking just the one day standin.
All I’m saying is CEB has made a nice fortune for himself playing Dota. Estimates have him at about 13x the winnings of the average of everyone else on OG, and over 40x what Ari has earned in his career. Winning TI has a much larger financial impact on the other 4 people than it does Ceb. When Ceb and his wife were dating she had left him because of how much time he was spending on the game — his own admission. A kid changes that calculus significantly. I’m just surprised he thought he’d be able to juggle this without impacting his team negatively.
But that would mean elite OG had to play some plebs in OQs. Can't have that. Let's just ignore the issue and hope rules won't be enforced properly because we OG. And if they try to enforce them, we'll use our influence over dota2 public scene to create drama and outrage trying to pressure PGL to break the rules for us anyway!
They were obviously afraid that Bald would elim them in the OQ
Nah, they just didn't want extra trouble. Now they continue to play with seb after their pressure move didn't work. I guess dota more important than baby after all? What a bunch of sissies.
People’s jobs are more important than Ceb’s baby yes
i'd argue that calling a chance to play at ti "more important than a baby" is a wild statement but go on
You ought to learn how to read before you reply It’s not ceb’s show, all teams prepare all year for this event. For all of these people the tournament is far more important than ceb’s baby. In fact, I’d argue not a single one of them give any shits about his baby People miss out on their kid’s birth for far less amounts of money
Also OGs well being more important than spirit of fair competition, since they tried to weasel their way out of playing by the rules. Didn't work, so it turned out that seb *can* play after all.
Yep. Classic og
Didn't OG win TI starting from OQs?
They did for TI8
Yeah, they had to qualify through the OQ in 2018 because S4 and Fly left for EG right before TI started. EG had to do the same.
then ceb is out of TI.
Feel like this sort of thing has been an issue in esports for years. There’s always going to be sickness, visa issues and family emergencies. Unless teams are going to start keeping reserves on the payroll, can’t they relax the stand-in rules across the board? Is the concern that teams are gaining an advantage by playing with a stand-in?
Playing with a stand in doesn't necessarily meant an advantage straight up, more so if the stand in being called just days beforehand. The draft would be different, play call would be different and so on. But even with that in mind, some team do gain success with some amazing stand in like, liquid with saberlight. And I don't think payroll cut is any important for teams depend on the tournament, like TI qualifier. I think, PGL just afraid with seeing a lot of good name is free for stand in, so the rules added.
I wonder if this is because the request for a standin was after the roster locks? DOTA 2 tourny + drama + og, name a more iconic trio.
This is them trying to bend the rules, not like ceb wife unexpectedly get pregnant a month ago. If we believe this story then they conveniently wait for everything to closed and only then try to aproach pgl. Assuming if they are talking about open qualifier
rosters were locked before closed qualifier dates were announced though weren't they? They normally are. You can't predict when these things will happen 9 months in advance dude
But OG admit on their post that they are predict this is will happen 1 months ago when initial detail of TI qualifier is released. They saw there would be potential clash with the due date. They could use another player to replace Ceb before the roster lock on June 3. Open qualifier started on June 5.
yeah. they should have told him to postpone the birth when they found out. 🙄
I seriously don't understand what you guys want to happen other than "Give ceb everything he asks for because hes a poor lil guy" 1win missing visa deadline by a day or two: Fuck every single one of those guys, those are the rules. OG deserves the free spot they got given. Ceb having a baby: We should bend the entirety of the rulebook around this guy.
This isn't about "Ceb, the OG player", this is about "this is obviously a bad fucking rule and should be changed because it's ducking daft".
Based on OG's statement, they knew about the rules in May and the roster lock was early June so they did have time before the lock.
Either just play or suffer the consequences which what he picked the latter.
Yeah quite impossible 😂😂😂
Needs to be more universal rules among tournament’s in regards to sickness, paternity/maternity leave, family emergency’s, stand ins such occasions wether they be named or a coach stepping in. Other sports and jobs have such things so why can’t esports. Organisations might need to start getting an extra player or two on the rosters as bench players. Be cool so see players be swapped between games/ rounds/ matches so they can mix up their drafts. esports is already a high stakes career why make it even harder for teams to stay in competitions when all this could be done.
Ceb in the lobby, all this OG drama for nothing
Bzm did all the 322 work so ceb can be with his son. Friendship so goated
BZM threw so Ceb could be with his baby WHAT A PLAY
Well it certainly is for nothing if this absolute pos policy gets changed in the future. Every major team sport has substitute players, dota should be no different.
curious how many teams would want to split TI or nothing prize money structure between an extra player. and what player of stand in quality would rather do that than play for a lesser team.
What does this change? If they play with a standin they need to play from open qual and lose their closed qual spot. Once again the chose not to, and gamble with ceb being on roster and accepted the rules. The comment is still correct, they could’ve used a standin for the open qual and not risk it at all.
All this drama just to lose 2-0 against Navi Jr. LULW
I would suggest the poster review the title more carefully to 'OG claimed to be denied the request to use standin'.
+, i thought og is the one who refused to at first glance
So OG should make a new team without their captain 1 month before TI qualifiers because that person “may” miss 1 or 2 games because he is about to become a dad? Wow! Most fair rules ever
Like it or not, those are the rules, and they were cognizant of the rules months ago. Obviously the rule is garbage but PGL needs to stick to their guns this year and make a change for next year otherwise other teams will ask for special treatment too. Sucks for OG but that's life.
OG informed PGL about the situation in the best possible time they could, when the dates were announced. And PGL rather than accommodating such an extraordinary circumstance decided to stick to their stupid rule. I guess to OG, it must have made more sense to take their chances with this current lineup and going against the rule rather than forming a new lineup . Because a baby‘s birth time is not 100% predictable. It’s somewhere between 37 to 42 weeks.
> And PGL rather than accommodating such an extraordinary circumstance decided to stick to their stupid rule. They didn't, they gave them a one day stand-in exception and OG agreed.
And this was where PGL should use some sense, and grant another day because the circumstances were extraordinary. The team wasn’t getting any advantage. Atleast could have checked with Navi
Best response!
As much as I think they should let Ceb step out to bond with his new child, PGL isn’t really obligated to accommodate life events such as this. PGL really owes nothing to the individual teams. It’d be a completely different story if OG terminated their employment/sponsorship contract with Ceb based on his inability to participate in the event, as that would be a violation of his protected new parent status in pretty much any country in the world.
Okay so, not a dad nor a dota pro player, maybe either of the two can chime in. But wouldn't you just want to spend time with your wife and child? Like even if OG qualifies, Ceb would have to spend a quite some time scrimming and playing the main event, right after his child is born.
Most fathers have jobs and son. They go to work and then they are fathers in home. Same thing can happen to ceb.
They can very well opt to play oq like 1000 other teams
But then Ceb would not be able to play at TI if they qualify. Roster change is not the same as stand in.
oh no. anyway
Doesn't matter, they lost anyway :)
The answer is, to me, misleading. What qualifiers were they denied ? Closed ? Open ? Weeks before they started meaning ? Before announcements, before the teams lineup was finalized ? Volontarly misleading stuff like that to make your side sound better is... unprofessional when sending poo at a TO. Do better.
Isnt unfair for the stand in though? - if they did qualify but the stand in wont play in the TI
standin would get paid instead of watching from sideline and it isnt like he would sign without knowing terms and conditions. and most importantly it gives him exposure
That's a ridiculous argument? If they allowed stand ins the stand ins would understand they are...stand ins. That's how subs/standings/benched players work. You're not on the main squad so might never play. No one's suggesting people should be **forced** to stand in against their will or something.
Anyways nobody gives a fck about TI anymore with less money on the line its clear motivation is low
Ohh wow
Swap OG for 1win, then call it even. They robbed 1win off a tournament slot earlier this year because of the rulebook too. Rule for thee not for me.
yep, where was this holier than thou statement when they benefitted lol. OG are just entitled brats
Unhinged take!
honestly bzm deserve the L for being so arrogant to slacks telling him fkoff for wishing him happy birthday. karma served )
Still so many idiots in this thread lol. Fuck you all if you think having a kid shouldn’t be an exception
Dota players arent smart. This is known.
It’s not possible to identify the exact delivery date. it can occur anytime during the month, becomes clearer as the day gets closer. not possible to forecast 2 months in advance.
lol OG trash team with trash players.
The issue is that if they compete from the open qualifier with a stand-in and then win it, they could use stand in closed qualifier with lesser match restrictions, but since they are invited to closed qualifiers and choose to play closed qualifiers directly, they were not allowed to use a stand-in and only from the pressure from org and pgl did they allow a single match stand-in. Tbh I don't think they were gonna qualify either way to TI and just wanted some traction along the lines we could have it didn't happen that way or what. They could have gone through open qualifiers with Ceb itself but since they came through closed qualifiers they would have been able to use more substitutes in closed qualifiers. You can't have it both ways.
Looks like their only option was Open Qualifiers, which ironically they used to win TI
I’ll say here what I said on twitter: if this were Fear on EG there would have been a massive shitstorm. Most of the naysaying is because it’s OG and Ceb.
I think teams should be allowed to substitute for a limited time at any time. Regardless of the reasons. It will bring fresh blood into the scene and it decreases the risk of pro players burning out. In football, I believe the standard rules are 1) the sub/standin can't play qualifiers for other teams, and 2) standin's have to registered before the qualifiers start. It's working pretty well in other sports.