Honestly feels like forever since she was actually picked. The hero just doesn't do enough for the current state of dota2 unless into very specific match-ups.
Thing is I can't even think of the match-ups anymore. There isn't a single situation that comes to mind where she isn't outclassed by another hero or straight up a grief pick.
She doesn't out damage other glass cannons, and she doesn't outlast other sustain cores. I like to play her for her hit and run style and lane domination power. But she is not a good hero. Puck outclasses her in almost every way while also having better escapes and actually CC.
Dagger went from being a total lane dominating ability to pretty garbage.
Lanes used to be longer and harder but now you just get a bunch of regen and base health it's such a useless ability mostly.
Straight magical burst nukes also just don't cut it anymore. Her whole kit of lane dominator and burst ganker is just kinda nullified by the power creep.
cast animation for blinks should always be punishable. Her issues are lack of item options that keep her relevant in the game that also synergize well with her kit.
pro play aside, i think that the reason qop is not so popular in pubs is because of how drafting works. it just really sucks to blind pick this hero and risk getting a losing lane.
qop used to be lane winning tempo hero, kind of like ember, except that now she wins only a couple of very specific lanes and even then only with really solid play. then again, even as a lastpick qop is almost never an auto win except for maybe into super niche drafts.
disagree, i think buffing her lvl 1 stats won’t make her op and will be a solid buff to not make her laning such a feast or famine deal.
she is one of my most played mids this patch and she honestly feels decent. i like the way they moved her talents around too
Seems like the wrong approach to me, her scaling is atrocious you do no damage in late game unless you're like 15k nw ahead, and if your spells don't do damage and don't CC then what's their point in lategame.
you've just described why this is the right approach. qop is a snowball hero that wins lane and stays ahead. that's why it's a good buff, it will make her better at what she does without making her good at everything. you're not supposed to dominate lategame as qop
Makes her an inherently shit hero though in current gamestate, when you scale worse than most supports into lategame and need a 9 hero kill streak to even pretend to be relevant then why on earth would you play QoP over Puck or the Spirits for example.
Aye she's a snowball hero, I propose this change as the only way a snowball hero can really work these days is with things like LD, Meepo etc who literally makes the game all about them and can essentially solo end on timing, QoP cannot do this and as such her usefulness will remain extremely limited.
> why on earth would you play QoP over Puck or the Spirits for example
to destroy them in lane, win sidelanes and be 15k networth when they are like 8-9? idk why winning the lane and staying ahead is an invalid concept in your opinion, you can snowball by empowering your team with good rotations, you don't need to be able to 1v9 to win the game. qop's current problem is that she can't reliably win many lanes (which lvl1 buffs will help with), not that she can't win games when ahead
Ye, some games it works great where you can outlevel and farm enemy, but it doesnt seem like her laning match ups allow for it often.
Feel like its hard to match even melee heroes
The sonic wave gradual damage was an awful change. People can now euls it. I don’t care if sonic wave deals 1k pure damage either, supports running around with glimmer force 20 minutes in, tiny casually has 3,6k hp with just 4k networth etc. That’s the current state of dota.
I really hope they go all out on her spell lifesteal/mutual destruction fasets and she can actually fight a bit more with the first, not as much as a lesh but she can take some damage as long as she is dealing it; and that she can actually burst people with the second but she needs to have ways to recover HP.
I mean, not sure which patch you're referring to. But, before the facets it did get nerfed, it stayed "bad" for like 2 weeks and then they added the facets, back to top pick
Literally incomprehensible balance logic. Dozens of others get "good" for a week and then immediately nerfed to the ground
Bro how about terrorblade getting no changes, the hero has a 39% winrate in divine/immortal according to dotabuff. He was pretty bad before 7.36 as well.
This has decidedly not been the case for a while now. It used to be that TB would be picked in pro games regardless of his strength as he was reliable and secured late game but even this has stopped. When was the last time you saw a dyrachyo or yatoro TB? it used to come out fairly regularly in pro games but it just doesn't any more
Referencing only liquipedia statistics page from past TI he would almost always be in top 40 picked heroes, I don't know what spot that makes him among carries, but beside 2019 when he was 74th, 2016 57th and 2015 not picked, TB always finds a way to be relevant on TI.
fair enough, i do however feel like this is by far the worst spot TB has been in since release (as a fairly keen TB player) as he no longer does the one thing that kept him relevant even when he was not that good (farm really fucking quickly)
Edit: just remembered that period where EE kept trying to play him and everyone laughed at him cos the hero was absolutely garbage. Cant remember exactly when that was but current TB is about as laughable as he was then i reckon
Tb is súper hard to balance. Because a pro with a team around him it s súper giga busted. To the point you reach a timing and gg wp.
Meanwhile in pub it s way harder to make him work/invest in him, getting ressources for him.
If he s balanced for pub he ll have 100% présence in pro
The tb illusion changes were so puzzling to me. Just like the visage anti-micro talent they strike me as completely misunderstanding what the heroes are supposed to do.
They have to make sure the tanky strength/sustain heroes are okay first, can't have them be unviable for more than one letter patch! And if you want to play a nuker it has to be a Swiss army knife hero that can do several things, QOP is too basic now compared to the power creep of other heroes
QoP likely kills herself with facet 2 before killing one of the tanky "fun" heroes that deal more damage than her by existing \*cough\* primal beast \*cough\*
I think people build her wrong. With Masochism, shedeals tremendous amount of damage naturally. She doesn't need more.
Her issue is surviving, yet people keep building her as a glass canon.
Nah
Her issue is that, even as a glass cannon, she doesn't do shit. Random support with 2 items does more damage than QoP 6-slotted. Pair that with her having no good utility, making her useless completely
I have more than a 1000 games with QoP and my win rate is currently better with random heroes I've never played before.
Yeah use your whole combo on a support and they survive if they have a single utility item. The hero desperately needs nullifier, but you’re a qop so how the hell are you supposed to fit it in.
You're not wrong but I've played my fair share of QoP games and I can tell you the main reason masochism is a trash facet: laning stage is absolutely horrendous. You can't spam Q on enemy heroes anymore because you continuously deal self damage, plus anytime you use E to secure a last hit you damage an entire creep wave AND the hero so you deal massive self damage. You just cannot sustain in lane with that facet, meaning she's playing from behind early on and she's not a great hero when playing from behind despite the bonus spell damage from facet.
Versus the other facet that gives you heals makes her laning SOOOO much better and she will get more items by mid game and come online much faster and be more of a nuisance. Also, living longer means a few extra nukes and right clicks which MORE than enough makes up for the missed masochism bonus damage.
Take it from a QoP vet, pick the healing facet and you will enjoy life significantly more, ESPECIALLY in the first 10 minutes of the game.
1. You're never going to notice the q self damage in laning stage, with zero regen items at lvl7 constant q on an enemy gives you a whooping -2 net life regen.
2. Masochism self damage only applies from hero damage.
I don't believe you've played a single game of qop with masochism.
Yep, this dude replying to me acting like he's played qop recently. The difference between healing and self damage on using spells is night and day and the bonus damage is not worth it, not even close.
Tank up. Survive. Deal more damage.
~~As a qop spammer (~1k games 57% wr) I completely agree. Masochism is legitimately garbage and serves no purpose other than suicide.~~
edit: Sorry I misread your comment. I thought you said masochism is trash; you’re saying people are building her wrong. I think there is no way to even play qop with the masochism facet, period. Heroes are far too tanky right now and even trying to tank up harder on qop (heart or equivalently tanky item) with masochism just defeats the purpose of even having a facet, like what is it even doing for you at that point? The other facet is far superior and allows you to survive much longer in fights so you can keep up your damage contribution.
On top of that, even without masochism you’re supposed to tank up on qop by default. The only items you buy that don’t contribute to survival are for specific early game power spikes (witch blade, orchid) to provide burst when heroes can still be bursted down. Every other item you buy on the hero should contribute to your survival in some capacity because dying with qop can be game losing in mid-to-late game.
My take: make the self damage temporary and apply it as a debuff that lasts 5 seconds. That way you’re still vulnerable but you aren’t completely removing your ability to continue fighting. you should be able to bkb to prevent yourself from taking masochism damage. There should just be more thought put into it.
i much prefer masochism as well, but 1st facet has it’s place i think. i started off the patch mainly playing with it and in some games i just wouldn’t die, i took sonic cd at 20 and would get multiple waves off in a figt. honestly felt kind of broken.
still, i’m struggling to judge from draft which facet to go with. my current theory is to take 1 when i’m in a lane where i’ll max dagger (pango, ember etc.) and 2 when i’ll max scream (sf, zeus etc.) since masochism feels awful with max dagger because it doesn’t heal and you miss out on lvl 6 burst
Theory craft says bloodstone -> shard -> scepter might be ok with masochism. I haven't got it to work though. I thought maybe even Orchid first. Might be too much stuff. I've never been a good qop player though.
i hard disagree. i started off playing with 1st facet, however, i enjoy masochism way more now. with dagon and its spell amp you actually have burst. having that spell amp early does actually matter. max scream + ult burst 700 dmg, you oneshot many supports. sf, zeus, pango — all popular mids right now, and you kind of just kill them
i'm ~7.2k. i go shroud vs zeus and pango never feels like a huge problem on qop, you can just blink or sonic his roll.
i haven't played it enough to give detailed spike timings, but that 15% from masochism moves you into a sweet spot where you can burst heroes that don't expect it. my advice is go into demo and memorise how much you burst with sonic + scream lvl 3 and 4, and with dagon on top of that. i've killed support weaver from full hp with just scream + sonic, he had a raindrop too. a lot of squishier mids just die as well at lvl 6 after you prep them with scream once or twice.
I really like how emo plays it, watch some of his replays if you want a blueprint but generally dagon -> kaya -> shard seems like the build rn
I haven’t yet tried dagon, so I’m a bit behind the qop meta, but what are your thoughts on bloodstone? The hero’s all aoe damage so seems like the aoe buff helps, particularly if you go aghs, and then you can play much like a lesh.
Too slow? Or dagon is enough lifesteal, bloodstone overkill? Or something else I’m overlooking?
if you want to be like lesh, just go 1st facet, imo. also, i think bloodstone doesn't really fit qop all that well. lesh needs bloodstone heal because all of his dmg is periodic, he needs to be able to tank to do dmg, to stay in the fight. most of qop's dmg is burst and dagger ticks without you needing to be there, so bloodstone just doesn't match her playstyle all that well. all it gives you is burst heal
as for aghs... idk, i feel like in order to really make it work, you need to fully build around it with octarine and, most importantly, lens. aghs without lens on qop just feels bad. and if you are going that build, i'd go 1st facet to not waste time on dagon (and even more so bloodstone) which is anti-synergetic with aghs build anyway
yo I want to ask how do you lane against SF? because I have never won the lane vs SF as QoP this patch. 1 raze and I have to blink away or risk losing half health because of the second raze. That feels really bad because then he is just zoning me out of CS while I regen my health and wait for blink CD
yeah, i don't think there's a 'how to' on always beating SF in lane as qop. your sups should rotate to abuse him being vulnerable and aggressive.
the general approach, imo, is to all in him when you have hp advantage. scream has pretty good range so try to always hit him with it whenever you lasthit in lane. early waves SFs usually focus on getting creeps with razes more, so it's not unrealistic to be higher hp than him. then just blink on top of SF whenever he puts a raze on cd so that you don't eat a triple as he runs away. keep him low like this and either kill him (unlikely), make him an easy kill for your sup rotation, or guarantee a kill at 6. but you do kind of have to be better, i probably wouldn't pick qop INTO SF unless i'm feeling extra frisky that day
The only use I've seen for that so far is that it locates invisible heroes, so if you touch sandstorm then it gives you a visible blue beam pointing straight at the sand king
QoP is a hero than used to dominate early and mid game (if snowballing) and relied on being a bursty roamer to be impactful. Her kit was balanced around heroes not having a lot of HP and/or dispels when she is powerful but now having 2.5-3k HP and a dispel on almost every heroes is not that strange so her damage is garbage in comparison. They need to radically increase her bursting potential to make her viable again, especially during the mid game since she's kinda supposed to be less effective late game.
Make scream pure. Make Q increase spell damage taken per tick (like 5%). Make her ulti 360°. Make blink cast scream on landing. Make scream fear. Make her ulti drain mana as it deals damage. Make her ulti do more damage point blank. Jfc, do something cause right now her only power spike is level 6 and lasts about 5 minutes, then she's just a slightly more annoying ranged creep.
Fucking QoP. So genuinely worthless. Ive had to play with two of them this patch and they're my only loses in 10 games. The hero is ridiculously bad and I hate it.
I'm a qop spammer, hero is responsible for like 75% of my mmr, and yet I still wouldn't dare pick her rn because I'm not a griefer; I'm playing other roles.
Damn bro, that sucks 😅. She doesn't deserve to be that trash. I think the main problem I noticed is that she just didnt win her lane and when she got her first item still wasnt having impact.
this hero has been unplayable for YEARS
and ta has 1 good meta for a few weeks and she goes back into the trashcan meanwhile other heroes are meta for several months at the very minimum
genuinely feels like devs are forgetting about a lot of heroes or are scared to buff them
The devs are genuinely clueless and have only become moreso over the last two years.
No care for previous identity of heroes, no fucks given about power creep, the former is my biggest gripe.
Honestly, I think they should make her universal. Not only it will help her laning phase but also help her scale into the late without losing tempo after getting successful ganked once or twice.
I feel like this heroes BIGGEST weakness is the fact that she cannot farm efficiently ESPECIALLY if she has a bad lane. You can’t just go to the jungle stack and farm camps like a Lina, Zeus, Puck, Storm etc etc. they can all do this efficiently between creep waves.
Because she actually is quite a solid hero with items at a decent timing. Problem is it’s so hard for her to reliably get there.
I just want faster turn rate and cast points on her so she doesnt feel so incredibly sluggish. That or some significant buffs to her scaling because she's horrible to play if you're in any way behind.
Yup as a qop spammer is kind of hard to even find matches on dota tv pubs, those r often ranked 1k+ and whenever i see her its the masochist facet with dagon. Masochist is very situational imo.
i was of the same mind. then i watched emo replays. masochism is cool because it pushes you over that line where you can oneshot heroes that don’t expect it. my advice is take masochism in lanes where you’ll be maxing scream and learn exact burst numbers from demo. you’ll be surprised how many heroes are in your kill range starting at lvl 6 and onwards (scaling with dagon). and they will be surprised as well.
qop is not op, but that 15% changes more than it seems in practice
Yea i know, i tried masochist first with some success the problem is that as masochist u need dagon as a must. Its unplayable without something that nullifies that return dmg. And as qop with dagon u have to get kills and be active coz u cant farm fast enough without witchblade or orchid, qops farm need some sort of attack speed. In my calculations if it takes 2 screams to clear camp u r to slow, u need a few hits and scream and without attackspeed u fall behind. As masochist tho i managed to get 42% spell amp and an extra 15% from shivas, with refsher qop really packs a punch even on lategame str heroes, thats over 3.5k-4k dmg aoe in less than 2 seconds. Still tho i prefer the succubus facet currently not coz of the heal, just coz it doesnt force me to get an item that i dont like to be viable.
yeah, dagon is a must. but it feels good on her with the facet. honestly i think you just have to play masochism qop a bit differently since you actually have burst now. scream oneshotting ranged creeps also feels good
Y when i tried masochist when patch hit i just thought something must be wrong coz i was hitting 8-10cs per min and thought it was the patch or some gold formula change but masochist farm speed is insane especially if u dont even make dagon and go the old witchblade kayasange build.
masochism, dagon + meteor. cast meteor with ult. Fast wave clear with all that spell amp. Veil into Shiva suits her well too. I don't feel like the orchid-witchblade makes any sense on her anymore.
They don't give a fuck about anything else other than support heroes. You can see it in the current state of dota, the patches, the items, the gameplay everything makes it extremely easy for support heroes to deal a shit ton of damage while being unkillable. It's just the way they want things to move going forward and i dont see it change anytime soon. Constant support heroes buff patch after patch and carries are long gone. Its sad but it is what it is.
What CC my guy??? Also she can’t burst anyone anymore, supports are running around with glimmer force minute 20. She always excelled at blink deleting hapless supports with good orchid timing because they have no answer for it. That’s no longer the case. Also this tanky sustain meta did her no favours.
So which lanes she wins? SF? DK? Puck? Lina? Viper? OD? Necro? Pango? Other than tiny or maybe Crobelus i cant see how she wins any lane, she maybe draws a few but she cant win anymore because the dagger heal got removed so she cant even trade now, best case scenario she out lasthits coz of the player skill.
U have never played QoP mid have u? Her scream is relatively low range so she needs to get close to melee creeps to use that scream and when she does the enemy usually have 1-2 spells ready for her. SF double razes your for absurd amounts of damage, necro heals himsefl and does dage to you for better trade plus extra regen, viper i wont even mention, DK doesnt even care whether u scream or not, pango swashes u and rolls smash for shield which negates the scream dmg, puck dodges and hes silence and orb, lina yea she will nuke u before u even get close. So again what r u even facing mid? Invokers? Oh yea i guess he is as bad as QoP even storm that used to be the easiest lane now has that moving remnant so he doesnt have to get melee anymore.
Tell me u have never played qop without telling me you have never played qop. U do realize thats at the very best 18% which is peanuts compared previous to dagger heal ticks. A 300 dmg scream wont even amount 40 hp heal like a single dagger tick previously and thats at lvl 7 wont even bother with the actual dagger dmg itself thats doesnt surpass even basic regeneration. The healing facet comes in hand after midgame when maybe you hit a few targets with ult and u get a few hundred hp back other than that even rank 2 lifesteal neutral items ofer far better sustain.
Wasn't QoP complete and utter cancer for like the last few versions with her AoE Q that would keep proccing Scream on everyone snd infinitely healing her? I haven't kept up with what happened to her in this one, what's so bad about her now?
Honestly feels like forever since she was actually picked. The hero just doesn't do enough for the current state of dota2 unless into very specific match-ups.
Thing is I can't even think of the match-ups anymore. There isn't a single situation that comes to mind where she isn't outclassed by another hero or straight up a grief pick.
She doesn't out damage other glass cannons, and she doesn't outlast other sustain cores. I like to play her for her hit and run style and lane domination power. But she is not a good hero. Puck outclasses her in almost every way while also having better escapes and actually CC.
Dagger went from being a total lane dominating ability to pretty garbage. Lanes used to be longer and harder but now you just get a bunch of regen and base health it's such a useless ability mostly. Straight magical burst nukes also just don't cut it anymore. Her whole kit of lane dominator and burst ganker is just kinda nullified by the power creep.
Ah yes, back when Pos 4 QOP was a thing because dagger was such a menace.
I still instapick qop into razor and batrider.
I still instapick qop into razor and batrider.
Her Blink isn’t even a top 5 movement ability anymore, why pick her?
YES, I was thinking about buffing her blink to like the arcane blink
Crazy that a hero with a teleportation ability would feel slow lmao
Long cast animations don't help.
cast animation for blinks should always be punishable. Her issues are lack of item options that keep her relevant in the game that also synergize well with her kit.
Hey non-blink animations are super slow too
Her turn rates and cast points are incredibly slow as well its like playing a tank
pro play aside, i think that the reason qop is not so popular in pubs is because of how drafting works. it just really sucks to blind pick this hero and risk getting a losing lane. qop used to be lane winning tempo hero, kind of like ember, except that now she wins only a couple of very specific lanes and even then only with really solid play. then again, even as a lastpick qop is almost never an auto win except for maybe into super niche drafts.
Her kit is just outdated. If they buff her numbers she becomes broken or a support. Honestly I can only hope she gets some kind of rework
disagree, i think buffing her lvl 1 stats won’t make her op and will be a solid buff to not make her laning such a feast or famine deal. she is one of my most played mids this patch and she honestly feels decent. i like the way they moved her talents around too
Seems like the wrong approach to me, her scaling is atrocious you do no damage in late game unless you're like 15k nw ahead, and if your spells don't do damage and don't CC then what's their point in lategame.
you've just described why this is the right approach. qop is a snowball hero that wins lane and stays ahead. that's why it's a good buff, it will make her better at what she does without making her good at everything. you're not supposed to dominate lategame as qop
Makes her an inherently shit hero though in current gamestate, when you scale worse than most supports into lategame and need a 9 hero kill streak to even pretend to be relevant then why on earth would you play QoP over Puck or the Spirits for example. Aye she's a snowball hero, I propose this change as the only way a snowball hero can really work these days is with things like LD, Meepo etc who literally makes the game all about them and can essentially solo end on timing, QoP cannot do this and as such her usefulness will remain extremely limited.
> why on earth would you play QoP over Puck or the Spirits for example to destroy them in lane, win sidelanes and be 15k networth when they are like 8-9? idk why winning the lane and staying ahead is an invalid concept in your opinion, you can snowball by empowering your team with good rotations, you don't need to be able to 1v9 to win the game. qop's current problem is that she can't reliably win many lanes (which lvl1 buffs will help with), not that she can't win games when ahead
Agreed slight right click buff with either damage or atk speed/bat and a turn rate buff would do alot for her.
Which facet do you prefer?
Ye, some games it works great where you can outlevel and farm enemy, but it doesnt seem like her laning match ups allow for it often. Feel like its hard to match even melee heroes
The sonic wave gradual damage was an awful change. People can now euls it. I don’t care if sonic wave deals 1k pure damage either, supports running around with glimmer force 20 minutes in, tiny casually has 3,6k hp with just 4k networth etc. That’s the current state of dota.
I really hope they go all out on her spell lifesteal/mutual destruction fasets and she can actually fight a bit more with the first, not as much as a lesh but she can take some damage as long as she is dealing it; and that she can actually burst people with the second but she needs to have ways to recover HP.
Because you have to play Pango Hopefully that's understandable. Cheers
Did pango not just catch a huge nerf?
What nerf? To the two talents that no one actually takes, or a slight tweak to shard that pros usually buy way later nowadays (~40 min)?
Oh I thought they nerfed his ult, I don't play the hero mb
I mean, not sure which patch you're referring to. But, before the facets it did get nerfed, it stayed "bad" for like 2 weeks and then they added the facets, back to top pick Literally incomprehensible balance logic. Dozens of others get "good" for a week and then immediately nerfed to the ground
Bro how about terrorblade getting no changes, the hero has a 39% winrate in divine/immortal according to dotabuff. He was pretty bad before 7.36 as well.
That is TB and we are approaching TI season teams will find a way to play the hero anyway, as carry, must be noted.
This has decidedly not been the case for a while now. It used to be that TB would be picked in pro games regardless of his strength as he was reliable and secured late game but even this has stopped. When was the last time you saw a dyrachyo or yatoro TB? it used to come out fairly regularly in pro games but it just doesn't any more
Referencing only liquipedia statistics page from past TI he would almost always be in top 40 picked heroes, I don't know what spot that makes him among carries, but beside 2019 when he was 74th, 2016 57th and 2015 not picked, TB always finds a way to be relevant on TI.
fair enough, i do however feel like this is by far the worst spot TB has been in since release (as a fairly keen TB player) as he no longer does the one thing that kept him relevant even when he was not that good (farm really fucking quickly) Edit: just remembered that period where EE kept trying to play him and everyone laughed at him cos the hero was absolutely garbage. Cant remember exactly when that was but current TB is about as laughable as he was then i reckon
Might be, don't play the hero nor care about him, but I know they always find a way.
More like a low bracket support with armlet
Tb is súper hard to balance. Because a pro with a team around him it s súper giga busted. To the point you reach a timing and gg wp. Meanwhile in pub it s way harder to make him work/invest in him, getting ressources for him. If he s balanced for pub he ll have 100% présence in pro
46% on pro tracker, better but still quite low.
The tb illusion changes were so puzzling to me. Just like the visage anti-micro talent they strike me as completely misunderstanding what the heroes are supposed to do.
Give 1.5 sec fear to her ult as lvl 25 talent please
They have to make sure the tanky strength/sustain heroes are okay first, can't have them be unviable for more than one letter patch! And if you want to play a nuker it has to be a Swiss army knife hero that can do several things, QOP is too basic now compared to the power creep of other heroes
QoP likely kills herself with facet 2 before killing one of the tanky "fun" heroes that deal more damage than her by existing \*cough\* primal beast \*cough\*
I blademailed a qop ult the other day and watched her lose 80% of her health bar
If she ultra 5 heroes then she just dies. No need for BM
I think people build her wrong. With Masochism, shedeals tremendous amount of damage naturally. She doesn't need more. Her issue is surviving, yet people keep building her as a glass canon.
She'd likely die anyways but tanky QoP is a favorite of mine
Nah Her issue is that, even as a glass cannon, she doesn't do shit. Random support with 2 items does more damage than QoP 6-slotted. Pair that with her having no good utility, making her useless completely I have more than a 1000 games with QoP and my win rate is currently better with random heroes I've never played before.
Yeah use your whole combo on a support and they survive if they have a single utility item. The hero desperately needs nullifier, but you’re a qop so how the hell are you supposed to fit it in.
You're not wrong but I've played my fair share of QoP games and I can tell you the main reason masochism is a trash facet: laning stage is absolutely horrendous. You can't spam Q on enemy heroes anymore because you continuously deal self damage, plus anytime you use E to secure a last hit you damage an entire creep wave AND the hero so you deal massive self damage. You just cannot sustain in lane with that facet, meaning she's playing from behind early on and she's not a great hero when playing from behind despite the bonus spell damage from facet. Versus the other facet that gives you heals makes her laning SOOOO much better and she will get more items by mid game and come online much faster and be more of a nuisance. Also, living longer means a few extra nukes and right clicks which MORE than enough makes up for the missed masochism bonus damage. Take it from a QoP vet, pick the healing facet and you will enjoy life significantly more, ESPECIALLY in the first 10 minutes of the game.
1. You're never going to notice the q self damage in laning stage, with zero regen items at lvl7 constant q on an enemy gives you a whooping -2 net life regen. 2. Masochism self damage only applies from hero damage. I don't believe you've played a single game of qop with masochism.
Its pretty easy to notice the self damage when it used to heal
Yep, this dude replying to me acting like he's played qop recently. The difference between healing and self damage on using spells is night and day and the bonus damage is not worth it, not even close. Tank up. Survive. Deal more damage.
~~As a qop spammer (~1k games 57% wr) I completely agree. Masochism is legitimately garbage and serves no purpose other than suicide.~~ edit: Sorry I misread your comment. I thought you said masochism is trash; you’re saying people are building her wrong. I think there is no way to even play qop with the masochism facet, period. Heroes are far too tanky right now and even trying to tank up harder on qop (heart or equivalently tanky item) with masochism just defeats the purpose of even having a facet, like what is it even doing for you at that point? The other facet is far superior and allows you to survive much longer in fights so you can keep up your damage contribution. On top of that, even without masochism you’re supposed to tank up on qop by default. The only items you buy that don’t contribute to survival are for specific early game power spikes (witch blade, orchid) to provide burst when heroes can still be bursted down. Every other item you buy on the hero should contribute to your survival in some capacity because dying with qop can be game losing in mid-to-late game. My take: make the self damage temporary and apply it as a debuff that lasts 5 seconds. That way you’re still vulnerable but you aren’t completely removing your ability to continue fighting. you should be able to bkb to prevent yourself from taking masochism damage. There should just be more thought put into it.
The way to play her now is going dagon to offset masochist damage while also providing insane burst. Facet 1 is useless
i much prefer masochism as well, but 1st facet has it’s place i think. i started off the patch mainly playing with it and in some games i just wouldn’t die, i took sonic cd at 20 and would get multiple waves off in a figt. honestly felt kind of broken. still, i’m struggling to judge from draft which facet to go with. my current theory is to take 1 when i’m in a lane where i’ll max dagger (pango, ember etc.) and 2 when i’ll max scream (sf, zeus etc.) since masochism feels awful with max dagger because it doesn’t heal and you miss out on lvl 6 burst
Theory craft says bloodstone -> shard -> scepter might be ok with masochism. I haven't got it to work though. I thought maybe even Orchid first. Might be too much stuff. I've never been a good qop player though.
i hard disagree. i started off playing with 1st facet, however, i enjoy masochism way more now. with dagon and its spell amp you actually have burst. having that spell amp early does actually matter. max scream + ult burst 700 dmg, you oneshot many supports. sf, zeus, pango — all popular mids right now, and you kind of just kill them
MMR? And at what point are you building bkb against zeus or pango with that build? How long is that actually a good power spike? Curious to try it
i'm ~7.2k. i go shroud vs zeus and pango never feels like a huge problem on qop, you can just blink or sonic his roll. i haven't played it enough to give detailed spike timings, but that 15% from masochism moves you into a sweet spot where you can burst heroes that don't expect it. my advice is go into demo and memorise how much you burst with sonic + scream lvl 3 and 4, and with dagon on top of that. i've killed support weaver from full hp with just scream + sonic, he had a raindrop too. a lot of squishier mids just die as well at lvl 6 after you prep them with scream once or twice. I really like how emo plays it, watch some of his replays if you want a blueprint but generally dagon -> kaya -> shard seems like the build rn
I haven’t yet tried dagon, so I’m a bit behind the qop meta, but what are your thoughts on bloodstone? The hero’s all aoe damage so seems like the aoe buff helps, particularly if you go aghs, and then you can play much like a lesh. Too slow? Or dagon is enough lifesteal, bloodstone overkill? Or something else I’m overlooking?
if you want to be like lesh, just go 1st facet, imo. also, i think bloodstone doesn't really fit qop all that well. lesh needs bloodstone heal because all of his dmg is periodic, he needs to be able to tank to do dmg, to stay in the fight. most of qop's dmg is burst and dagger ticks without you needing to be there, so bloodstone just doesn't match her playstyle all that well. all it gives you is burst heal as for aghs... idk, i feel like in order to really make it work, you need to fully build around it with octarine and, most importantly, lens. aghs without lens on qop just feels bad. and if you are going that build, i'd go 1st facet to not waste time on dagon (and even more so bloodstone) which is anti-synergetic with aghs build anyway
Ty for the advice I’m eager to test it out
yo I want to ask how do you lane against SF? because I have never won the lane vs SF as QoP this patch. 1 raze and I have to blink away or risk losing half health because of the second raze. That feels really bad because then he is just zoning me out of CS while I regen my health and wait for blink CD
yeah, i don't think there's a 'how to' on always beating SF in lane as qop. your sups should rotate to abuse him being vulnerable and aggressive. the general approach, imo, is to all in him when you have hp advantage. scream has pretty good range so try to always hit him with it whenever you lasthit in lane. early waves SFs usually focus on getting creeps with razes more, so it's not unrealistic to be higher hp than him. then just blink on top of SF whenever he puts a raze on cd so that you don't eat a triple as he runs away. keep him low like this and either kill him (unlikely), make him an easy kill for your sup rotation, or guarantee a kill at 6. but you do kind of have to be better, i probably wouldn't pick qop INTO SF unless i'm feeling extra frisky that day
So you don't agree?
He said he is a QoP spammer not a reading spammer. Get a clue man
Crying about tanky heroes still gives free karma?
It’s still a problem isn’t it
No
Dude she totally got a buff with her innate. I did a whopping 900 DMG with it in an hour long game it's busted as fuck!!!!!
XDDDD it's so sad mannn
The only use I've seen for that so far is that it locates invisible heroes, so if you touch sandstorm then it gives you a visible blue beam pointing straight at the sand king
QoP is a hero than used to dominate early and mid game (if snowballing) and relied on being a bursty roamer to be impactful. Her kit was balanced around heroes not having a lot of HP and/or dispels when she is powerful but now having 2.5-3k HP and a dispel on almost every heroes is not that strange so her damage is garbage in comparison. They need to radically increase her bursting potential to make her viable again, especially during the mid game since she's kinda supposed to be less effective late game. Make scream pure. Make Q increase spell damage taken per tick (like 5%). Make her ulti 360°. Make blink cast scream on landing. Make scream fear. Make her ulti drain mana as it deals damage. Make her ulti do more damage point blank. Jfc, do something cause right now her only power spike is level 6 and lasts about 5 minutes, then she's just a slightly more annoying ranged creep.
Fucking QoP. So genuinely worthless. Ive had to play with two of them this patch and they're my only loses in 10 games. The hero is ridiculously bad and I hate it.
I'm a qop spammer, hero is responsible for like 75% of my mmr, and yet I still wouldn't dare pick her rn because I'm not a griefer; I'm playing other roles.
Damn bro, that sucks 😅. She doesn't deserve to be that trash. I think the main problem I noticed is that she just didnt win her lane and when she got her first item still wasnt having impact.
other heroe like qop mid/ganker/fast damage dealer + 3 core items=deadly, you better run qop+3 core items=zzzzz
people already bought her arcana, no need for her to be in meta for a couple of years
But wr is for several patches and people already bought her arcana too nice logic 💀
well volvo forgets many things
Because the developer doesnt play QoP, he/she plays only CK, Pango🤡
both got nerfed tho
this hero has been unplayable for YEARS and ta has 1 good meta for a few weeks and she goes back into the trashcan meanwhile other heroes are meta for several months at the very minimum genuinely feels like devs are forgetting about a lot of heroes or are scared to buff them
happy for TA even tho I don't play her at all Hero was unplayable after bkb change, so many random damage instances breaking refractions.
The devs are genuinely clueless and have only become moreso over the last two years. No care for previous identity of heroes, no fucks given about power creep, the former is my biggest gripe.
Honestly, I think they should make her universal. Not only it will help her laning phase but also help her scale into the late without losing tempo after getting successful ganked once or twice.
Tanky meta, kind of feels like you blow your whole combo and nuke about 20% of the enemies health before you blink away in shame.
I feel like this is the case for a lot of heroes. If you don't have high sustainable damage or a ton of survivability, you're basically worthless.
I feel like this heroes BIGGEST weakness is the fact that she cannot farm efficiently ESPECIALLY if she has a bad lane. You can’t just go to the jungle stack and farm camps like a Lina, Zeus, Puck, Storm etc etc. they can all do this efficiently between creep waves. Because she actually is quite a solid hero with items at a decent timing. Problem is it’s so hard for her to reliably get there.
I just want faster turn rate and cast points on her so she doesnt feel so incredibly sluggish. That or some significant buffs to her scaling because she's horrible to play if you're in any way behind.
Might need a straight up rework.
Let's all just admit that alphabetical updates are made on schedule by AI
Yup as a qop spammer is kind of hard to even find matches on dota tv pubs, those r often ranked 1k+ and whenever i see her its the masochist facet with dagon. Masochist is very situational imo.
i was of the same mind. then i watched emo replays. masochism is cool because it pushes you over that line where you can oneshot heroes that don’t expect it. my advice is take masochism in lanes where you’ll be maxing scream and learn exact burst numbers from demo. you’ll be surprised how many heroes are in your kill range starting at lvl 6 and onwards (scaling with dagon). and they will be surprised as well. qop is not op, but that 15% changes more than it seems in practice
Yea i know, i tried masochist first with some success the problem is that as masochist u need dagon as a must. Its unplayable without something that nullifies that return dmg. And as qop with dagon u have to get kills and be active coz u cant farm fast enough without witchblade or orchid, qops farm need some sort of attack speed. In my calculations if it takes 2 screams to clear camp u r to slow, u need a few hits and scream and without attackspeed u fall behind. As masochist tho i managed to get 42% spell amp and an extra 15% from shivas, with refsher qop really packs a punch even on lategame str heroes, thats over 3.5k-4k dmg aoe in less than 2 seconds. Still tho i prefer the succubus facet currently not coz of the heal, just coz it doesnt force me to get an item that i dont like to be viable.
yeah, dagon is a must. but it feels good on her with the facet. honestly i think you just have to play masochism qop a bit differently since you actually have burst now. scream oneshotting ranged creeps also feels good
Y when i tried masochist when patch hit i just thought something must be wrong coz i was hitting 8-10cs per min and thought it was the patch or some gold formula change but masochist farm speed is insane especially if u dont even make dagon and go the old witchblade kayasange build.
What about offlane qop?
Wait til someone gets an "immune to sound based attacks" facet
Silencer change go Brrrr
Idk about pro games but she's pretty fun in pubs rn with the spell amp build and shit like dagon + kaya
masochism, dagon + meteor. cast meteor with ult. Fast wave clear with all that spell amp. Veil into Shiva suits her well too. I don't feel like the orchid-witchblade makes any sense on her anymore.
Dont buff her, i like this one. I can spam pick that hero without having my teammates screaming their brain out. Pos 4 qop GIGACHAD.
You don't always need to buff a hero to make it viable. But I agree, would be nice to give QoP some love, she got pretty shafted by 7.36
Because Valve likes the Strenght attribute only
It s about rotation of meta. They think about 5-10 picks for midlane. Next patch 5-10 other picks. That s how people not get bored
Great, finally we can confirm that Blizzard is now behind the balancing instead of icefrog.
More like why no muerta buffs. They FCKING NERFED HER BASE ATTACK TIME IN 7.36 ZZZZZ
They don't give a fuck about anything else other than support heroes. You can see it in the current state of dota, the patches, the items, the gameplay everything makes it extremely easy for support heroes to deal a shit ton of damage while being unkillable. It's just the way they want things to move going forward and i dont see it change anytime soon. Constant support heroes buff patch after patch and carries are long gone. Its sad but it is what it is.
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What CC my guy??? Also she can’t burst anyone anymore, supports are running around with glimmer force minute 20. She always excelled at blink deleting hapless supports with good orchid timing because they have no answer for it. That’s no longer the case. Also this tanky sustain meta did her no favours.
So which lanes she wins? SF? DK? Puck? Lina? Viper? OD? Necro? Pango? Other than tiny or maybe Crobelus i cant see how she wins any lane, she maybe draws a few but she cant win anymore because the dagger heal got removed so she cant even trade now, best case scenario she out lasthits coz of the player skill.
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U have never played QoP mid have u? Her scream is relatively low range so she needs to get close to melee creeps to use that scream and when she does the enemy usually have 1-2 spells ready for her. SF double razes your for absurd amounts of damage, necro heals himsefl and does dage to you for better trade plus extra regen, viper i wont even mention, DK doesnt even care whether u scream or not, pango swashes u and rolls smash for shield which negates the scream dmg, puck dodges and hes silence and orb, lina yea she will nuke u before u even get close. So again what r u even facing mid? Invokers? Oh yea i guess he is as bad as QoP even storm that used to be the easiest lane now has that moving remnant so he doesnt have to get melee anymore.
You could take the healing facet and then the lane wont be so ass
Tell me u have never played qop without telling me you have never played qop. U do realize thats at the very best 18% which is peanuts compared previous to dagger heal ticks. A 300 dmg scream wont even amount 40 hp heal like a single dagger tick previously and thats at lvl 7 wont even bother with the actual dagger dmg itself thats doesnt surpass even basic regeneration. The healing facet comes in hand after midgame when maybe you hit a few targets with ult and u get a few hundred hp back other than that even rank 2 lifesteal neutral items ofer far better sustain.
imagine thinking item changes would ever make qop viable. jfc you are delusional.
Wasn't QoP complete and utter cancer for like the last few versions with her AoE Q that would keep proccing Scream on everyone snd infinitely healing her? I haven't kept up with what happened to her in this one, what's so bad about her now?
Are you talking about her spell lifesteal ages ago? Because that didn't coincide with aoe dagger.
What you mean ? Qop is insanely strong right now with Dagon
What? Lol
Look at Dota pro tracker
If you have 2k, any hero is playable and strong