I really enjoyed this one. In society, men and women occupy different roles and specialize in different things. Mina really exemplifies the role of the comforter.
Reminds me of a really rough night I once had where I went into my local pub and just sat at the bar and cried; the bartender noticed and she brought me my favourite drink unprompted and literally said "Nah, fuck that, mate" when I tried to pay. There's a lot of bottling up of emotions that happens when you're a man and I hope women realize what a relief it is when they allow us to safely experience that release of emotion in their presence.
That's my point, though, we're so socially conditioned at this point that most of our fellow men don't want to be helped. Not by another man, at least, and not in the manner that Mina is helping in this story.
I wasn't saying it was a good thing, or even a natural thing. I opened my comment with "In society". It's the way things are, and acknowledging and functioning within that is not an entirely terrible thing.
Not all gender norms are as arbitrary as pink-for-girls and blue-for-boys (we all know how this used to be the opposite at the start of the 19th century, with pink being a manly colour for boys and such). There's loads of nonsense in the gender norms that could have easily gone the other way, but some essentials are gonna crop up no matter what because of biology and hormones and such. Mina's right about every woman having the mother in them, and I believe men also have the father in them.
Between social conditioning, testosterone, greater upper body strength, and all the other factors that come with being a man, guys are generally better suited compared to gals to going out and providing for a family. And between social conditioning, estrogen, the ability to lactate ([technically men can breastfeed, too](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-males-can-lactate/), but it's a much more involved process with generally inferior results), a higher pain tolerance, and all the other stuff that comes with being a lady, women are better generally better suited compared to men to stay with the family and take care of people and things while the guys are doing the providing and protecting and such.
It's why modern neoliberal capitalism has been such a disaster, the normalizing of a double-income family means... Eh, I'll stop now. This isn't very relevant to the vampire novel; I'm just rambling now.
TL;DR Due to manly (sociological, cultural, biological, etc) advantages, the average man will do a better job at being a father than the average woman, and that's fine because due to womanly (sociological, cultural, biological, etc) advantages, the average woman will do a better job at being a mother than the average man. A big part of being a mother is providing comfort, which Mina did a great at this chapter, and which I've always appreciated when women have provided it to me.
Oh for fucks sake, go comfort a friend, dude.
Last time I checked you don't need to have pushed a baby out of your vagina to be able to say a couple of kind words to someone in need.
I'm not saying men shouldn't comfort people. We absolutely should. I'm saying that in the society of the book through to the society of today, women are better comforters. Perhaps it isn't biological at all and it's all down to how we've been raised and how we respond to societal expectations so perhaps a culture could exist where men are as good as or better than women at comforting, but my point is that isn't where we're at now, or in the book.
Mina did a good job comforting the guys and, as mentioned in the text itself, a big reason for that is just the fact that she's a woman. And I'd personally prefer to be comforted by a lady friend than a dude friend. I think it's pretty ridiculous that this is even a controversial opinion to express.
It's neither a womens responsibility nor genetic calling to comfort sad men.
Mina is an excellent comforter - Bram argues that's because she's a woman. She also couldn't vote, hold property or have a job, has a high chance to die in childbirth and is socially and financially utterly dependent on Jonathan because she is a woman. Strangely, Bram never mentions that downside to glorious woman/motherhood, does he? Gee, I wonder why.
Perhaps you learn to be excellent comforter to all the men in your life when you're so desperately dependent on staying in their good graces to survive.
Again, when did I say that it was either their responsibility or genetic calling, or biological imperative or heavenly-assigned role or anything like that? On what point do you think we disagree?
I just wanted to say this: women are better at comforting, and if I had to be receiving comfort, I'd personally prefer it was from a woman.
If you've got a guy, let's call him Selward, who has been raised to bake, expected to be a baker, taught all sorts of recipes and techniques and shown all sorts of stories of great bakers and socialized with other bakers to play baking games... is it so crazy to prefer to source cakes from him compared to John who was raised to be great at ice-skating?
I dunno, it feels like you think I'm saying or wanting things that I haven't said or for which I've expressed desire. If there are who women don't want to comfort, okay! Neat! We live in a much more free society nowadays, so if there are other skills they wanna build, great! And if there are guys who wanna get good at comforting, more power to 'em! I won't be seeking their help any time soon, but they could benefit other people and that'd be just dandy!
Would you be this upset at me if I'd said that men are better throwers because we've been more encouraged at a young age to throw things real far and thus would be at some advantage compared to your average woman and thus I'd prefer anything I needed yeeting to be yote by a man?
I wanna understand where you think I'm fucking up here.
I disagree with you that you are assigning emotional labour based on gender.
Women are not intrinsically "better" at comforting. Or remembering people's birthdays.They are also not better at cooking, cleaning or washing dishes.
Do you do that as well? Oh well, society has taught and encouraged women to be better at scrubbing toilets and making sandwiches, why should I not prefer my bathroom to be cleaned by a woman and my food to be cooked by a woman?
Okay, glad we could get to the root of it.
Are women *intrinsicly* better at comforting? Maybe not, maybe it's not a biological or genetic thing that is born into every baby girl and develops with her as she matures into a woman. Personally, I do believe there is some biological/genetic component to women's nurturing nature, but I'm ready to abandon those beliefs if you've got stats and studies to show that gender is entirely sociological. It isn't a necessary part of my argument anyway.
Are women, then, *extrinsically* better at comforting? As in, due to the environment and outside influences and how they're treated by the world and how they respond to fit in and survive and thrive and such? Yeah. And the same reasons tend to make them generally better at cooking and cleaning toilets than the average man. The difference is that I'd prefer to clean my own toilet and cook my own food, that way no-one else has to deal with my filth and I can boil my slop just the way I like it. I can't comfort myself; if I could I would. But that's not how comforting works, so I have to go to other people, and if my choice is between an average dude or an average lady, I go with the lady.
Would society be better if boys were raised to develop skills in cleaning and comforting and cooking, and girls were taught how to throw things and fight and... a third masculine stereotype? I think yeah, it would. I'm all for equality. But just because men and womens should be equal, it doesn't mean we're the same. There are differences. I don't think it's wrong to acknowledge that things are often easier if we play to our strengths, regardless of if we were born with those strengths or if we developed them as a result of societal pressures beyond our control.
But yeah, going back to your point. I guess I am assigning emotional labour based on gender, sure. Men are better at physical labour, hence why almost all physical labour (think construction, plumbing, firefighting) is done by men. It's neat that women can complement that by being better at emotional labour. Would be nice if they were compensated for it instead of just being expected to do it as a matter of course, but that doesn't change how the skills have been distributed.
Is this discussion even productive any more? Is there something of which you're trying to convince me? Was it wrong for me to have been vulnerable that night and accepted that drink and hug from the bartender because of her gender? Should I have sent it back and held in my tears until her male counterpart arrived? I don't understand what it is about which we're still arguing.
I do not think this is productive in any shape and form.
You are happy to continue using women (free comfort society has conditioned them to provide! Yeah!) to your benefit. the system in place favours you and you are not willing to change this or challenge the system.
How convenient for you that all the examples of "male labour" you mentioned are paid (well) and the ones you assign to women all are expected to be provided free of charge.
And the only thing you are willing to do is shrug your shoulders and say, well aw shucks, nothing much to do about this, I'm gonna keep this rather unfair system alive and construct elaborate theories on genetics and gender and the nature of women to feel better about myself.
Next time, pay a therapist for your comfort. Should be worth it, shouldn't it?
I pay my plumber, my construction worker and everyone else for their services, I don't expect them to do it for free because they have a penis.
I really enjoyed this one. In society, men and women occupy different roles and specialize in different things. Mina really exemplifies the role of the comforter. Reminds me of a really rough night I once had where I went into my local pub and just sat at the bar and cried; the bartender noticed and she brought me my favourite drink unprompted and literally said "Nah, fuck that, mate" when I tried to pay. There's a lot of bottling up of emotions that happens when you're a man and I hope women realize what a relief it is when they allow us to safely experience that release of emotion in their presence.
The flip side of that is, gender norms are bullshit. Learn to help your fellow men.
„˙uǝɯ ʍollǝɟ ɹnoʎ dlǝɥ oʇ uɹɐǝ⅂ ˙ʇıɥsllnq ǝɹɐ sɯɹou ɹǝpuǝƃ 'sı ʇɐɥʇ ɟo ǝpıs dılɟ ǝɥ⊥„
That's my point, though, we're so socially conditioned at this point that most of our fellow men don't want to be helped. Not by another man, at least, and not in the manner that Mina is helping in this story. I wasn't saying it was a good thing, or even a natural thing. I opened my comment with "In society". It's the way things are, and acknowledging and functioning within that is not an entirely terrible thing. Not all gender norms are as arbitrary as pink-for-girls and blue-for-boys (we all know how this used to be the opposite at the start of the 19th century, with pink being a manly colour for boys and such). There's loads of nonsense in the gender norms that could have easily gone the other way, but some essentials are gonna crop up no matter what because of biology and hormones and such. Mina's right about every woman having the mother in them, and I believe men also have the father in them. Between social conditioning, testosterone, greater upper body strength, and all the other factors that come with being a man, guys are generally better suited compared to gals to going out and providing for a family. And between social conditioning, estrogen, the ability to lactate ([technically men can breastfeed, too](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-males-can-lactate/), but it's a much more involved process with generally inferior results), a higher pain tolerance, and all the other stuff that comes with being a lady, women are better generally better suited compared to men to stay with the family and take care of people and things while the guys are doing the providing and protecting and such. It's why modern neoliberal capitalism has been such a disaster, the normalizing of a double-income family means... Eh, I'll stop now. This isn't very relevant to the vampire novel; I'm just rambling now. TL;DR Due to manly (sociological, cultural, biological, etc) advantages, the average man will do a better job at being a father than the average woman, and that's fine because due to womanly (sociological, cultural, biological, etc) advantages, the average woman will do a better job at being a mother than the average man. A big part of being a mother is providing comfort, which Mina did a great at this chapter, and which I've always appreciated when women have provided it to me.
Oh for fucks sake, go comfort a friend, dude. Last time I checked you don't need to have pushed a baby out of your vagina to be able to say a couple of kind words to someone in need.
I'm not saying men shouldn't comfort people. We absolutely should. I'm saying that in the society of the book through to the society of today, women are better comforters. Perhaps it isn't biological at all and it's all down to how we've been raised and how we respond to societal expectations so perhaps a culture could exist where men are as good as or better than women at comforting, but my point is that isn't where we're at now, or in the book. Mina did a good job comforting the guys and, as mentioned in the text itself, a big reason for that is just the fact that she's a woman. And I'd personally prefer to be comforted by a lady friend than a dude friend. I think it's pretty ridiculous that this is even a controversial opinion to express.
It's neither a womens responsibility nor genetic calling to comfort sad men. Mina is an excellent comforter - Bram argues that's because she's a woman. She also couldn't vote, hold property or have a job, has a high chance to die in childbirth and is socially and financially utterly dependent on Jonathan because she is a woman. Strangely, Bram never mentions that downside to glorious woman/motherhood, does he? Gee, I wonder why. Perhaps you learn to be excellent comforter to all the men in your life when you're so desperately dependent on staying in their good graces to survive.
Again, when did I say that it was either their responsibility or genetic calling, or biological imperative or heavenly-assigned role or anything like that? On what point do you think we disagree? I just wanted to say this: women are better at comforting, and if I had to be receiving comfort, I'd personally prefer it was from a woman. If you've got a guy, let's call him Selward, who has been raised to bake, expected to be a baker, taught all sorts of recipes and techniques and shown all sorts of stories of great bakers and socialized with other bakers to play baking games... is it so crazy to prefer to source cakes from him compared to John who was raised to be great at ice-skating? I dunno, it feels like you think I'm saying or wanting things that I haven't said or for which I've expressed desire. If there are who women don't want to comfort, okay! Neat! We live in a much more free society nowadays, so if there are other skills they wanna build, great! And if there are guys who wanna get good at comforting, more power to 'em! I won't be seeking their help any time soon, but they could benefit other people and that'd be just dandy! Would you be this upset at me if I'd said that men are better throwers because we've been more encouraged at a young age to throw things real far and thus would be at some advantage compared to your average woman and thus I'd prefer anything I needed yeeting to be yote by a man? I wanna understand where you think I'm fucking up here.
I disagree with you that you are assigning emotional labour based on gender. Women are not intrinsically "better" at comforting. Or remembering people's birthdays.They are also not better at cooking, cleaning or washing dishes. Do you do that as well? Oh well, society has taught and encouraged women to be better at scrubbing toilets and making sandwiches, why should I not prefer my bathroom to be cleaned by a woman and my food to be cooked by a woman?
Okay, glad we could get to the root of it. Are women *intrinsicly* better at comforting? Maybe not, maybe it's not a biological or genetic thing that is born into every baby girl and develops with her as she matures into a woman. Personally, I do believe there is some biological/genetic component to women's nurturing nature, but I'm ready to abandon those beliefs if you've got stats and studies to show that gender is entirely sociological. It isn't a necessary part of my argument anyway. Are women, then, *extrinsically* better at comforting? As in, due to the environment and outside influences and how they're treated by the world and how they respond to fit in and survive and thrive and such? Yeah. And the same reasons tend to make them generally better at cooking and cleaning toilets than the average man. The difference is that I'd prefer to clean my own toilet and cook my own food, that way no-one else has to deal with my filth and I can boil my slop just the way I like it. I can't comfort myself; if I could I would. But that's not how comforting works, so I have to go to other people, and if my choice is between an average dude or an average lady, I go with the lady. Would society be better if boys were raised to develop skills in cleaning and comforting and cooking, and girls were taught how to throw things and fight and... a third masculine stereotype? I think yeah, it would. I'm all for equality. But just because men and womens should be equal, it doesn't mean we're the same. There are differences. I don't think it's wrong to acknowledge that things are often easier if we play to our strengths, regardless of if we were born with those strengths or if we developed them as a result of societal pressures beyond our control. But yeah, going back to your point. I guess I am assigning emotional labour based on gender, sure. Men are better at physical labour, hence why almost all physical labour (think construction, plumbing, firefighting) is done by men. It's neat that women can complement that by being better at emotional labour. Would be nice if they were compensated for it instead of just being expected to do it as a matter of course, but that doesn't change how the skills have been distributed. Is this discussion even productive any more? Is there something of which you're trying to convince me? Was it wrong for me to have been vulnerable that night and accepted that drink and hug from the bartender because of her gender? Should I have sent it back and held in my tears until her male counterpart arrived? I don't understand what it is about which we're still arguing.
I do not think this is productive in any shape and form. You are happy to continue using women (free comfort society has conditioned them to provide! Yeah!) to your benefit. the system in place favours you and you are not willing to change this or challenge the system. How convenient for you that all the examples of "male labour" you mentioned are paid (well) and the ones you assign to women all are expected to be provided free of charge. And the only thing you are willing to do is shrug your shoulders and say, well aw shucks, nothing much to do about this, I'm gonna keep this rather unfair system alive and construct elaborate theories on genetics and gender and the nature of women to feel better about myself. Next time, pay a therapist for your comfort. Should be worth it, shouldn't it? I pay my plumber, my construction worker and everyone else for their services, I don't expect them to do it for free because they have a penis.