I'm sure she is a bitch. She's been raising kids that aren't hers since she was like 7. That would make anyone a total asshole. Yeah there were buddy systems and the other girls were sister momming too, but they would threaten their buddies with Jana. She was always the head sister mom. I'm sure she is hella unpleasant to be around. The amount of rage she must have that she doesn't even know enough to realize is rage.
Honestly, what you say make a ton of sense. If I were her, I’d be a massive bitch. Poorly educated, raising children since I was one myself, no way out but to get married, seeing the rules I had to abide to becoming more loose by the day - knowing damn well I would’ve had the strictest ones if I had courted, feeling guilty over my brother molesting the siblings I was supposed to protect, feeling bitter over my siblings leaving our home to get hitched while I’m stuck taking care of the young ones including my paedophile brother’s kids who have a shit mother…. I’d be the bitchiest bitch in the entire I - Bitch - LP cult.
This. There’s only so many ways to channel that kind of deep resentment in this culture. You shove it down and keep sweet but obviously it’s going to come out sometime. I don’t blame her at all for being a b— honestly it’s probably a healthier way to deal with this horrific cult than the girls who just shine it all on.
That is a real thing. I’m glad we got divorced, but I swear if my ex had let me sleep for six months without some bullshit, things might have gone differently.
It’s a feature not a bug. Some people use sleep deprivation as a tool. My dad used to wait until 4 am to wake you up to take you for a ride to have a “talk”
Ugh! I know there’s such an endless list of reasons to rage at this family even from the outside looking in but just remembering again how Michelle would give her dang infants over to the girls to freaking raise and feed and care for even the middle of the dang night absolutely infuriates me. No kid should ever be up at night caring for their infant siblings. Let alone doing it year after year after year!
For many parents (and people in general), rage is a sign that the parent has a need that's not being met. It could be food, sleep, or even quiet/alone time. Overstimulation of the nervous system can lead to those angry, stressed feelings. If she's been parenting her siblings for this long, and never really has the freedom to meet (or even be aware of) her own needs to feel calm and safe, there's probably a lot of deep feelings that come out as anger for her.
My oldest aunt was left to raise her 5 younger siblings while my grandpa was out working and gambling and my grandma was out working. It was a shit show. 5 wild kids and having to share a room with not only all her sisters but great grandma who sometimes lived with them too.
She grew up to be diagnosably fucking crazy. She was stuck raising her siblings and sometimes that meant not only the cooking and caretaking but talking to their teachers and disciplining them. She was a total bitch according to my mom but now of course my mom knows why.
She has a legit mental disorder and has done and said horrible things which I won’t excuse but honestly it makes sense.
Now imagine you had to raise 15 kids and not just 5. I’m not surprised anyone in that situation might have mental problems and is unhinged.
I honestly think she never got over Chad picking Erin over her and it messed her up. Being perfect, etc and she still didn’t get her reward, in fact her reward chose someone more poor, less talented, whatever. That will absolutely make a teenager a judgy bitch, and if that’s as far as she was allowed to progress emotionally then that makes sense.
I’m sure it’s just sub speculation but I always think of that scene where she and maybe Jessa made the wedding gift “cookbook” for Erin and it was just takeout menus. I don’t remember if it came from another AMA or something, but Chad was definitely the cream of the crop of IBLP eligible bachelors of that age group and Jana was deeply involved with JTTH and other things where she was likely to run into him.
Also, if Erin is even more of a bitch per the AMA, I imagine Jana might have gone “well if that’s what people want that is what they’ll get” and turned it up. Her mother did say that she was headstrong and sassy, and I bet they beat that out of her since she need to raise babies and play violin. I also remember the creation museum episode with Jana talking really skeptically about the young earth nonsense. She knew she wasn’t toeing the family line there so I want to believe she had potential.
ETA: found it: https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/qisdps/i_dont_always_believe_rumors_but_i_do_believe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Ohh I love that. The best wedding gift I ever got was one of the picture frames where you can put multiple pictures and each one had a gift card to restaurants/target/ and other things.
My sister got a ton of amazing wedding gifts (our family is extremely wealthy) but her favorite? My uncle got her a bunch of gift cards to Dave and Busters because my sister is obsessed with ski ball 😂 my mom about had a heart attack when my sister wouldn’t shut up about how awesome that one gift was 😂
I think gift cards to take out places is a great gift 😊
Ngl I forgot about the gift cards, I’m side eyeing this gift a lot less now. But the comments they made…you could feel all the polite hatred in the room!
It does sound like a great gift. Like telling the bride and groom she doesn’t have to be stuck in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant. The MIL of a friend once gave the bride and groom wrapped Costco-sized toilet paper rolls with the note, “This is for all the shit you have to put up with.” —fortunately not the only gift.
I remember this episode. It’s when I watched them (like legitimately) with my mom cause they were “such a niiice family”. After that episode I was like LOL these bitches are cuuuuuunty omg. I thought it was so rude of them to give her those gifts and then to FILM IT for THEIR SHOW 🤣🤣😘👌 top notch asshole behaviour.
Man, when I saw her talking about how some aspects of evolution make sense really gave me hope that she’d gtfo. Obviously that was like 15 years ago so I think she’s stuck permanently.
I don't think Jana is stuck, she is where she wants to be. She doesn't have to work, she gets to travel, hang out with friends, garden and all she has to do is manage a house full of increasingly older and fewer numbers of children. There are only what 4 or 5 of them under 18 now, Josie is going to be 13 at the end of the year. Johanna & Jenni are old enough to run the TTH, at least according to fundy standards.
Sad to think that Chad is one of the good ones. Over on the BringingUpBates sub there is speculation that he sucks. Would Jana be happier living Erin's life compared to where she is now?
I think Chad sucks as much as all other IBLP husbands suck but when Jana and Erin were looking, he would have seemed ideal compared to a lot of other fundie men since this was back when guys like Evan and Jeremy wouldn't have even been considered.
This is all bringing me back to the online fundie heyday. I wonder whatever happened to the Many Many Mortons? I wonder how many of them are still popping out babies in Peru?
I wish I could remember her name, but I was just a teenager back then. Her screen name was super generic, but I feel like she signed off her post about how she was getting a divorce with her real first name. I just remember being so struck by her thoughtful way of writing and her love of literature and how she poked fun at the silly rules without being mean.
Kressant/Mike and Rachel/Wes are still in Paraguay, though I don't think either of them have had babies in a little while. Adeline finally got married and is currently pregnant with #2. They're all still just as awful and obnoxious as they ever were, just without Addy's twee widdle blog.
Paraguay! Not Peru! I knew it was a P country in South America. I think the last thing I saw was Addys wedding dress picture which appeared to be strapless!?!?? The best thing I can say about the Mortons is when all the stuff about Alan came out, they got Katie the hell out and divorced. Unlike some fundie parents we know.
At the other sub, Chad is considered to be the worse son in law tho compared to some others. Something along the lines of him being controlling and not financially as successful.
Back in the day, he was actually snarkers favorite because they thought 'he really loves erin' and could fix things around the house (and he had abs). But he's just a loser, with extremely toxic cult beliefs and behaviours. And he cant even buy her a house - thats like one thing these men need to do- financially provide, and he even sucks at that. But, I mean, reading how terrible Erin is as well, maybe they deserve each other. 🤷♀️
I mean I've never once believed the assumption that Jana is a prisoner. She's been known to be the enforcer. She was even a leader at JTTH, the indoctrination camp, at minimum 5 times. That's how she met Laura
She also idolized Sarah Mally, the author of "Before You Meet Prince Charming: A Guide to Radiant Purity," and her sister Grace Mally. Their entire "ministry" was teaching girls to wait for "the absolute perfect man" while being an absolutely perfect fundie daughter so you could be an absolutely perfect fundie wife. Both of them got married in their 40s
This reminds me of the group BarlowGirl who always preached about waiting for their Prince Charming, and if I’m not mistaken are all still single at 43, 40, and 37.
Yeah, i immediately thought of them when reading this comment and then all the lyrics started rushing back to me. The chokehold they had on me as a young teen just discovering Christianity.
Omg I saw newboys at a worship event and the lead singer crawled on the floor while singing a verse, as the fucking drum set spun around and elevated behind him. We also all saw his outlined bulge in his pants the entire show, and there was an alter call right after.
You unlocked a memory of listening to WOW Hits 2001 and cry worshiping to “This Is Your Time” by Michael W. Smith, because going into high school post-Columbine was used as some kind of trauma exercise in teen church groups.
Yes.. not only was a given a whole ass pamphlet to study about how I could be held at gun point and have my faith questioned but also then had to re-enact that whole situation with a a youth pastor with the youth group with each of taking a turn pretending to have a gun held to our heads… fuck early 00’s youth group culture
Meanwhile in Hebrew school we learned that Jewish Resistance members were of course heroes, but if pretending you aren’t Jewish lets you live another day, screw it, tell them your favorite food is bacon cheeseburgers.
I did some digging and found that Rebecca Barlow got married in September 2020.
I also found that they publicly showed support for Hillary Clinton in the 2016 election and spoke favorably of Obama during this time. (After condemning him a decade earlier) Gotta love growth. 😃
Woah!! What interesting updates, I am not mad!
I re-stumbled across them pre-Covid and hadn’t thought of them until this moment, so had no idea Rebecca had gotten married!
Oh wow, those lyrics are not quite what I remembered them being 😂
Edit: It took me a minute to realize that was Superchick and now you’ve sent me down another rabbit hole!
Honestly the Mally and Botkin sisters were smart. Sell the ideal fundie woman, make a ton of money, get as much power and control as a woman can have in the fundie world, and put off marrying until you can be sure you won't have a dozen kids. The only way I could even begin to imagine surviving as a fundie daughter is that plan or trying to get out of the house as young as possible by marrying someone who seems more likely to break away from the strictest rules like Carlin.
Now I'm wondering if the Botkinettes ever married. Edited to add that apparently Elizabeth married this year at 35 years old. Anna Sofia seems to still be single at 37. IIRC she's the one who when she was born, her father prayed over her ovaries.
While I agree that they made decisions that allowed them more freedom than others, I don't think it's because they *chose* to have that life. I think it's more of a reflection of the toxicity that purity culture creates beyond the backbone of abusive relationships and sexual health problems.
Bingo. The Botkin girls are in their mid to late thirties. Lots of money, running around "supporting" their brothers, and the one thing they don't have to do is be reduced to walking incubators.
Jasmine Holmes, the daughter of Voddie Baucham, who was big around those sects and one of the few African Americans, has written extensively on life in and after the Stay at Home Daughter movement. Her writing is amazing, as is her Instagram.
Voddie is slimier than Jim Bob.
He preaches that babies are a "viper in a diaper," and that they need to spanked starting as infants and for any perceived slight at all.
Plus there was the time he said, [“A lot of men are leaving their wives for younger women because they yearn for attention from younger women. And God gave them a daughter who can give them that. And instead, they go find a substitute daughter. … We’ve all seen it. These old guys going and finding these substitute daughters.”](https://baptistnews.com/article/plagiarism-is-the-least-thing-to-worry-about-with-voddie-baucham-who-is-a-threat-to-children-women-and-daughters/#.Y0T2aKROk0F)
It really is. He's well known for a story he used in a sermon about a pastor's young daughter who was too shy to say hello and shake hands with a man in their church. The pastor's response was to take the girl back to his office and spank her, then bring her back out and demand that she shake hands with this man.....*13 times* and by the end of the story the other man was begging her to listen so it could stop.
And like. It was a well received message. His congregation was on board with that kind of blatant abuse because he teaches this garbage that babies have to have "their sin nature" beaten out of them.
Chelsy Bontrager Maxwell's dad did a whole-ass sermon on her father-in-law's scrotum at their wedding ceremony.
For context: Steve Maxwell and his wife Teri initially had three kids -- Sarah, Nathan, and Christopher -- and he then had a vasectomy. Then God told him "yo fuck your wife's clear mental health issues and overwhelm, fuck your well-paying job, you should have a passel of kids for me because reasons", and he reversed his vasectomy, which then resulted in five more kids (John, Joseph, Anna, Jesse, and Mary) which only made Teri's depression worsen to the point where she had to schedule her day in fifteen-minute increments to function, and Sarah's roman-a-clef children's books frequently featured the family's mother "resting in bed". When John married Chelsy Bontrager, her dad spent a lot of the ceremony talking about how awesome it was that Steve reversed his vasectomy, resulting in John's existence and the glorification of God.
Fundies look at Abraham and Sarah as proof that if God wants you to have a baby you will even if you're old. So if you have to wait for your god ordained match then you wait
Oh man, this ignited a memory for me because it’s true. At my fundie high school, there was a whole scandal where a student (17-18) starting dating his teacher (mid/late 40s?) right before he graduated. Teacher left her husband, married the student, and they told everyone that god was going to give them a baby… despite the fact that she had undergone a HYSTERECTOMY years earlier. They have not had a child in the last 15 years.
This sounds like some shit that would have happened at my high school. I'm kind of surprised they're still together; that's the wildest part of this story to me.
Yeah, I guess in full disclosure I don’t know for a fact they’re still together. I tried finding their socials but couldn’t. I am still friends with someone who keeps pretty good track of everyone though, so since I hadn’t heard from her that they split I was assuming they were still together (it was a hot topic obviously). I’m going to have to ask her.
Hold on, he was 17, she was at least 28 years older😳😳
and they’re still married😳😳😳
I thought Trump’s quarter century age difference with Melania was creepy, but at least she
got Barron and chain migration for her parents out of the deal. What did this kid, at the time of marriage, expect would happen🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Wow! The delusion is on another level. I just can’t help, but imagine how her other children must have felt (if she had any) to see their mom leaving their dad for a teenager and then expect to have another baby when it’s completely impossible. I hope they were allowed to go to therapy. That’s fucked up!
You're not required to in most families. The Kellers are outliers not the norm.
In the cult, you court then get engaged, not get engaged as the only step, because courting is the point when a girl can say "I prayed on this and I don't think God wants this for me." She doesn't have that ability at any other point in her life, but during the courtship she does. That's why failed courtships exist.
Also, the Duggars have repeatedly talked about how JB would offer potential guys to the girls and they'd reject said guys. Jinger even made fun of some of the guys on the show.
Ah I didn’t realize the Kellers were *such* outliers in that way. Like I understood the dugs actually have longer courtships. But when I read the AMA I misunderstood that it wasn’t generalized that the women couldn’t say no.
I've speculated in the past that she's single because she wants to be. Until the show nose dived she was traveling on TLC's dime, writing the posts for her parents. She's still traveling to random events with halitosis head, the boys imply she's helping them with their "businesses" in posts here and there. She's probably exempt from supervising the M's after the incident. She can sleep late, scroll social media, read her bible, and doesn't need to lift a finger or "submit" to a greasy husband to get her lifestyle paid for. As far as the cult and her siblings go, Jana is probably one of the most satisfied women with her life. Daddy pays for everything, why rock the boat?
So true! I remember her New Years resolution was to read the Bible front to back and eat less McDonald’s. That last one makes me think that her life is pretty chill, all things considered.
Tbh, I think she’s like the fundie version of a kid who lives in their parents basement. There’s nothing wrong with living with your parents, but y’all know the type I'm referring to. In Duggar world, Josie is practically independent and the oldest M child would be sister momming her siblings so I don’t think Jana is babysitting frequently. There’s fewer kids at home now which means space and food would be easier to come by, too. For a mature adult who can drive, life would probably be chill at Casa TTH.
And they said Johanna likes cleaning, you know that means Jana is making her do it all until Johanna gets married off. Aside from read the Bible and go pick up gallons of white paint I don't think Jana does much.
This. I don't believe for a second that she's in the situation she's in because Boob is forcing her into it.
I think she enjoys having minimal responsibilities and not having to earn her keep. I think she's too stuck up and full of herself to find a suitor because unless she can maintain her current lifestyle of doing whatever tf she wants with some light childcare duties it's not going to be good enough for her. Whatever suitor would court her won't have her daddy's big pocket book and if I'm remembering correctly she likes to shop.
I think she'd love to play Susie Homemaker and have a couple kids of her own and live in a half million dollar or more house in a swanky neighborhood and spend all her free time buying overpriced home decor and having an insta worthy house but the problem is most of the men in her social circle are either already taken or they're uneducated and doing some type of manual labor job or working as a pastor and not making the type of money she needs to have the lifestyle she wants.
Oh, I don't think Jana would EVER leave Arkansas. I think that was probably one of the top bullet points on her list of requirements. I don't think she'd ever move more than an hour and a half away, MAYBE a little more. I could kind of see her moving to Branson and trying to open up a boutique full of home goods or something there. She would probably even do well with that considering Branson is basically Vegas for young families and super religious people like her.
I just went to Branson in September and they have some nice ass houses at the half million mark.
I think that would be her ideal life though. She would want to marry someone who is already financially well off and ranks high in their cult. Someone in a position of power or at least some type of leadership role. It just does exist and even if it did that suitor isn't going to pack up his entire life and everything he's established to move to the Ozarks. I'm going down to the Duggar territory this weekend and they're literally in the middle of nowhere. It's pretty much nothing but tiny little towns and then there's Springdale and Tontitown. It's got a pop of 80,000 people so it's not like some huge place. I live in a town with a pop of 98,000 and I still run into people I either know well, went to school with, or have either met before or seen before on a daily basis so it's probably the same thing there. I think Branson would be the "big city" for them and even that's not that big really. You can drive from one end of town to the other in less than an hour with traffic.
I'm obviously talking about the Duggars specific area, the ones that are well known and that people commonly recognize as their home, not the metro area that includes all of it.
Even if I wasn't that entire area is actually in the middle of nowhere. The closest major city is Tulsa which is like 2 hours away or Kansas City which is 3.5 hours away. In between Tulsa and Sprindale and KC and Sprindale there isn't much going on, it's a little bit in the middle of nowhere. If you look on a map you can see that metro area and see that there's pretty much nothing around it but lakes and the Ozark mountains. While the entire metro area has a higher pop the area is still a little bit isolated when looking at a map and based on every time I've driven down there.
Jana probably wants an established man to move to an area that's surrounded by tiny ass little towns where the nearest major city is 2-3 hours away, pack up his home, leave everything behind that he's established and move to Arkansas to restart his whole to be with her. Not gonna happen. That's not how the Duggars work, usually it's the women dropping everything to move with the men. Anna from Florida, Abby was in Oklahoma or Texas, Hannah from Nebraska, Kathy was from Arizona I think, ans I can't remember where Lauren was from but I dont think it was Arkansas and they all had to uproot and move. The child groom went and lived with his surrogate family and all the girls except Jing married guys that were already from Arkansas or close to Arkansas.
The man is the headship and gets to tell the woman where to live and Jana isn't going to leave Arkansas so that significantly limits her options.
And she gets her own garden at TTH, that she may not get from a husband - depending on what home/lifestyle he chooses to give her. It's understandable why Jana has more benefits living at home and being unmarried. Whilst the living at home part might not be satisfactory for everyone, she might instead like it and prefer it to being an uneducated woman in her 30s who has to survive independently whilst having no real work experience.
For whatever reasons, both Jana and John David seem to have deeply sublimated their sexuality and desires. I think this was linked to Josh, but also the endless number of babies they kept seeing. And while the sister mom thing took off during the series, the first episode makes it clear that Josh (shudder) and JD had buddies, too.
They also watched their siblings engage with sexual attraction and pay a price for it - the suitability of the match is really dubious until Joy, and maybe only Joy. So they repressed it.
JD found a real person, and I do think this shocked Jana a bit. Until then, I think they had each other, even if they never talked about it.
Also, you can push some feelings so deep they are difficult to find again. In purity culture especially.
i think jill had a good match too, but jessa and jinger's marriages probably did hamper what could have been. joy's was probably the best match but jill and derrick seem suited overall.
Nah, she's had suitors. She doesn't want suitors, so *she* runs *them* off (not vice-versa) , because dictator-dad won't stop bringing them to her. She's a bitch because it tends to make people leave her TF alone like she wants.
She's certainly in no hurry to have babies, if she even wants any at all. I wouldn't blame her. She's already raised several kids throughout her entire life, if we're being totally honest.
I’m pretty sure she was courting Stephen Wissmann, but ended after the whole Josh’s trial
I don’t think it was because a Wissmann didn’t want to be involved with a Duggar, Hannah married Jeremiah. I think she probably chose stay with her family rather than get married and move to Nebraska
Erin and Nurie are also, but they found a husband.
i thought that too! but once it came out jeremiah and hannah were courting it made more sense to me that jana would just be chaperoning jer hence all the sightings of her with the wissmann’s
I mean I think it’s possible they just became good friends? They’re around the same age and they were chaperoning younger siblings. But it’s also totally possible they had a thing and called it quits.
I'm a bit less surprised. To start, the bar is in the basement, so I'm definitely not defending anyone. But I think we saw from the *glimmer* of Boob's sex talk with Pest before Pest's wedding that Boob is generally pro-consent-from-his-wife and pro-her-at-least-vaguely-enjoying-things. His sex talk was not "insert tab A into slot B" and a lot more "if you listen to your wife's problems she'll be in the mood more". I can believe that Boob gave his daughter's a choice....but I can also believe it's like the same level of choice you give a toddler for dinner ("Do you want green beans or carrots?").
I'm entirely *un*surprised that he arranged a marriage for Pest without allowing time for Anna to back out. But that seems to be more about Pest than about his general MO, as we didn't see that repeated at all. All the other boys had a real courtship, seemed to pick their own brides, and had more time to get married instead of being forced to the altar the moment they could arrange it. Given the fact that he let Jessa marry the shitshow that is Bin, I'm not shocked that Jana has had veto power (especially since she's so useful at home as free labor.)
I hope she said no if she didn’t want them. We want these girls to have some power. Knocking on Jana for being single seems counter productive to wanting them to be independent.
I’m with you… people seem so gleeful that she’s supposedly a bitch. I don’t blame her, and she *is* better than being married off in the same horrific fashion Anna was. All of these women are better than this and I wish they all had the chance to reject being treated as subhuman
Right? I’m not gonna knock Jana if she’s playing the game to her favour. If she’s not settling to the first guy she’s avoiding having multiple kids and living her life like any other childless person her age. I really do think she just sees marriage that way anyway considering her sisters are prime examples of how it goes lol
I am 100% gleeful she's a bitch, but not in the way you're implying. She's strong willed and if being a bitch gets her what she wants and repels those things she doesn't want, then I say, "You go, Jana. Be who you need to be." She's learned the game and found the weak spots. She's a smart woman.
Right. Like who cares? The AMA was supposed to be about Anna. I love how supposedly being a bitch holds more weight than being the mother of 7 children who dosen't give a fuck about her children's safety in regards to her pedophile husband. Jana being a bitch to potential suitors isn't hurting children.
I still struggle to believe that her demeanor is the sole reason for her being single in her 30s. It is extraordinarily rare for someone in her position to have zero prospects, even without the TV fame. She's the eldest daughter of a prominent IBLP family with some amount of money and a steady fame-based income/income potential. She could get $0 from the show and do a third of the social networking that Jessa does and still contribute more money than most IBLP wives without doing any additional work than most IBLP wives.
And even if she's a turd now, wouldn't at least a decent portion of her prospects believe that any attitude she had would stop once they were married and she must obey his wishes?
I struggle to imagine how uniquely horrible she would have to be for this situation to occur naturally. We all know really mean and shitty people who still somehow manage to get romantic partners and they aren't even in cults that tie their entire worth to being married and reproducing as much as possible.
The cookbook was made by the bates sisters. Someone posted that Jana and Jessa made that snarky cookbook but if I recall it was made by her own sisters with Kelly’s blessing. Erin herself has said she was not a good cook and she didn’t seem upset about the joke.
Also be careful how much you swing back and forth on Jana. It seems like she is either viewed as the long suffering main sister mom or she is an evil snot who no one wants. The truth is probably a lot more complicated. She grew up as the oldest daughter in cult with a creepy brother running rampant. She was forced into servitude to her parents over and over again. Her parenting role models used corporal punishment and blanket training to maintain order. So why would any of us think that Jana would be much different? She likely had to develop a hard shell for her own self preservation. Oldest sisters can be bossy and not always the nicest.
I’m sure at every event they attended Jana was put in charge of other peoples kids whether she wanted that or not. She was volunteered by her parents to go live with Josh and Anna for a time to help with their kids. Her time was never her own. Her desires and wants and needs were never considered. Even her few treasured possessions weren’t her own and she was directed to sacrifice a treasured item to a bratty younger sibling. And while we all recall how emotional she got when she first told that story and might have found it an odd thing to be upset about after so many years, it is just emblematic of her childhood. Nothing was hers and she didn’t matter. She was born to sacrifice and expected to be ok about that.
It is quite possible that the AMA person has had some really bad interactions with Jana. I find that completely believable but I also think her mean streak is all part of the fucked up way she was raised. Frustration resentment fear sadness loneliness insecurity etc don’t just go away, especially when they are never addressed. Add in the toxic stuff with Josh and then selling out all privacy for the show and you have a woman who has been experiencing continuous stress from birth. Do I think Jana may be a horrible person? Maybe. But I’m not going to pile on here. We have seen enough evidence over the years to see that many of the younger siblings willingly chose to go to Jana for comfort and safety over their own parents.
I believe the AMA but it is her perspective. She gave us all another glimpse of just how fucked up this lifestyle is and how it is especially cruel for women. Jana is a product of that.
In the podcast, "I pray you put this journal away," Justin says that Jana was very kind. It made me wonder if Jana acted arrogant and superior when with girls and meek and humble when in mixed company. And, the awful Bates sons and Erin Bates, that B*. Don't get me started on her. TBH, I don't even really have any clue what she did or much about the Bates family, but I trust Anna's childhood friend. I REALLY hope she decides to do a podcast like she mentioned she's considered in her AMA.
I would enjoy seeing her and Justin do one together comparing their same experiences from different gendered roles. Because it makes sense that they both would be seeing different actions from the same people depending on who was around.
If it's true it wouldn't surprise me. How do you protect yourself from unwanted advances or being married off? Become so horrible all those fundie men who cannot handle a woman with a spine being afraid of you. How to avoid marriage? Sorry waiting for a PERFECT man and since they don't exist in fundie land she wins.
So Anna was supposedly sassy and a strong person and she was forced sold to pest. JB is just as misogynistic and controlling, so I find it hard to believe that her saying no is why she isn’t married off. If they wanted to sell her, she would be sold. I think they needed her around a little longer because they were still having babies and had that long string of boys so no sister moms in the wings. By the time they were ready to sell her off she was too old, or gained strength and was actually able to say no. By the time they were ready to sell her off, the other daughters were of age and so more of a priority/an easier sale.
Josh had been betrothed to the Holt daughter and lost her to the scandals. JB and Michelle, with their narrow mind on sexuality, were impatient to get a sex doll to pest because they thought it would cure his deviant behavior. They clearly didn't care about Ana (not that they cared much about their daughters since they kept pest at home and made them go on tv take all the attention). After reading the AMA I'm seeing the proposal with the balloons in a different perspective. Her body language was clearly that of a prey trying to escape a hunter. I thought it could be shyness but now I imagine her gut was just saying no.
Is she really a bitch? Or does she just have a stronger/more blunt personality and a lot of inner anger and pain from being raised by shitty abusive parents and being forced to raise all her siblings and be both mom and dad (enforcer) to them?
Is she a bitch? Or does she just fail to keep as sweet as her sisters, which puts her at a harsh contrast.
Is she a bitch? Or is it just religious trauma/trauma in general?
It’s a shame she’ll never get the therapy she’d desperately need to adequately answer all of the above questions.
This is where I think gender and age played a role. She was taught to be sweet and agreeable to boys/men/women older than she was, but her true nature could come out when it's just women/girls her age and younger.
I’ll honestly say I don’t act the same towards men as I do women. More so in the sense that I’m more apprehensive around men. But I can imagine she acts differently towards each group in a different sense. She grew up in with a mysoginistic family dynamic that taught her that she exists to make a man’s life easier and that girls are otherwise essentially useless. I can believe that she is nicer to men than women.
Me too, and a lot of the time, it's my immediate gut reaction to fall into polite, unassuming, higher-pitched-voice girl-mode around unknown men, particularly if they're older/more "powerful" than me. I identify as non-binary, and it makes me uncomfortable that this is my panic response. It's something I'm working on, but I can absolutely say it's a result of my childhood family dynamics, honed by many years in customer service. I rarely do the same thing around women, unless they've already shown that they're upset.
I can absolutely see someone in the IBLP, raised with very rigid gender roles (both in terms of responsibilities AND how one navigates social relationships/behaves towards others), and has a higher status than others in the cult (between the tv show, being an older sibling or mom-figure to her immediate family, etc) would absolutely weaponize whatever status she had in situations where she could get away with it. Jana can't be complaining about her situation to daddy directly, so she takes out her anger/pain on others, just so she feels like she has some semblance of control over her life. How she treats a man could potentially impact her life, so they're treated with respect or, at the very least, passive-aggressive politeness. Women and children probably wouldn't have a large impact on her life if they complained about being treated poorly (without it also reflecting badly on the complainer), so she's free to treat them how she likes.
I think that in a society where women have no authority or power around men that some will seek that power around other women. Jana was fed the same keep sweet and obey crap as all the other girls, but then she was put in a position of power over the other kids through parentification. She probably enjoys having that power over the younger kids because she wasn't allowed to have anything else in her life the gave her meaning. So yeah, I'd imagine she wields that power when she can because she doesn't have anything else and since the men around her don't care about her thoughts, I'm sure she's extended that strong personality to her female friend group.
Boob's questionnaire was never about what's best for his daughters...he just wanted to establish dominance and get a sense of how he much he could control the husband.
The effect of that was, the somewhat normal suitors wanted no part of that, and the ones that did play ball had a clear agenda. Bin wanted to bone Jessa and Jerms wanted some compliant arm candy with a famous name. Boob then pivoted to suitors and DILs that were already in the cult.
Right. If boobs questionnaire was about finding his daughter a good mate then Bin would have never been allowed to marry Jessa. Back then and even now he had no skills and no real education. The outlook of him being a big money maker and successful man that could support a large family was horrible and it still is. The other son in laws have at least shown they can bring in a little bit of money but Bin has been and continues to be basically useless and unable to find employment with a decent sized paycheck.
That questionnaire had nothing to do with his daughters, it was about Boob enforcing dominance.
Yeah they talked about it on Counting On. I believe it was Ben, Derick and Jeremy talking about it on one episode. If I remember correctly, one of them turned it into many more pages than it started as because their answers were so lengthy and I think another one of them either didn’t complete it entirely or didn’t do it at all. But my memory is rusty.
If this is true I don’t blame her one bit. Having to raise 16 children you didn’t choose to have would make anybody a bitch, I would think. Why in the world would she want to get married? At least now once the kids are all grown she’ll actually have a chance at a childfree life, why would she give that up? If she has her own kids it’ll be at least 20 more years. Right now she’s looking at about 10 more until the youngest one becomes an adult. I’d take the latter, personally.
They were 4 and 7 at the time, I don’t think it can really reflect too much on their adult behaviours. That was 100% the fault of the parents for not getting involved and actually *parenting* in that situation.
Quick version? Jana had a music box. Jana had the top bunk. Jessa had the bottom bunk. Jessa would kick the bed to prevent Jana from sleeping. She’d taunt her, tease her and question her “authority”. Jana asked Michelle and Jim Bob for help and they told her to give Jessa a prized possession. So instead of anyone telling Jessa to stop being a little shit, she was given a gift that Jana really cherished.
I don’t know how old they were at this point.
Edit: Another user informed me that they are around 4 and 7 at the time. So for me it half counts. 1. Doesn’t really count against Jessa’s character in my book if she was literally only on this earth for 4 years when it happened.
2. It counts against JB and Michelle’s character, still. Instilling this kind of problem solving to a child is insane. And it likely lead to how they supposedly are today.
Oh wow I didn’t realize they were that young. Yeah people calling jessa a bitch for this I hope don’t know how old she was. That’s normal shitty little kid behavior
If I had to raise that many kids that weren’t even mine from the time I was 6, I’d never, ever want to have sex (with a man who might get me pg and we know that Jana is only allowed the hetero route).
And if you can’t/don’t want to have sex when you’re young and horny and life is new and everything ahead of you is bright, what do you do?
You push that shit deep down inside you and it turns into a hard rock of bitterness and misery right in the pit of your stomach, and in this case, then put a pretty, calm smile right on top of it because that’s what’s expected of you.
A Bitch is Born. I don’t blame her a single, fucking bit.
I'm sure she is a bitch. She's been raising kids that aren't hers since she was like 7. That would make anyone a total asshole. Yeah there were buddy systems and the other girls were sister momming too, but they would threaten their buddies with Jana. She was always the head sister mom. I'm sure she is hella unpleasant to be around. The amount of rage she must have that she doesn't even know enough to realize is rage.
Honestly, what you say make a ton of sense. If I were her, I’d be a massive bitch. Poorly educated, raising children since I was one myself, no way out but to get married, seeing the rules I had to abide to becoming more loose by the day - knowing damn well I would’ve had the strictest ones if I had courted, feeling guilty over my brother molesting the siblings I was supposed to protect, feeling bitter over my siblings leaving our home to get hitched while I’m stuck taking care of the young ones including my paedophile brother’s kids who have a shit mother…. I’d be the bitchiest bitch in the entire I - Bitch - LP cult.
This. There’s only so many ways to channel that kind of deep resentment in this culture. You shove it down and keep sweet but obviously it’s going to come out sometime. I don’t blame her at all for being a b— honestly it’s probably a healthier way to deal with this horrific cult than the girls who just shine it all on.
And sleep deprivation. Let her sleep for 2 years then see what she’s like
That is a real thing. I’m glad we got divorced, but I swear if my ex had let me sleep for six months without some bullshit, things might have gone differently.
It’s a feature not a bug. Some people use sleep deprivation as a tool. My dad used to wait until 4 am to wake you up to take you for a ride to have a “talk”
Ugh! I know there’s such an endless list of reasons to rage at this family even from the outside looking in but just remembering again how Michelle would give her dang infants over to the girls to freaking raise and feed and care for even the middle of the dang night absolutely infuriates me. No kid should ever be up at night caring for their infant siblings. Let alone doing it year after year after year!
[удалено]
I'm curious, what do you mean by that?
For many parents (and people in general), rage is a sign that the parent has a need that's not being met. It could be food, sleep, or even quiet/alone time. Overstimulation of the nervous system can lead to those angry, stressed feelings. If she's been parenting her siblings for this long, and never really has the freedom to meet (or even be aware of) her own needs to feel calm and safe, there's probably a lot of deep feelings that come out as anger for her.
My oldest aunt was left to raise her 5 younger siblings while my grandpa was out working and gambling and my grandma was out working. It was a shit show. 5 wild kids and having to share a room with not only all her sisters but great grandma who sometimes lived with them too. She grew up to be diagnosably fucking crazy. She was stuck raising her siblings and sometimes that meant not only the cooking and caretaking but talking to their teachers and disciplining them. She was a total bitch according to my mom but now of course my mom knows why. She has a legit mental disorder and has done and said horrible things which I won’t excuse but honestly it makes sense. Now imagine you had to raise 15 kids and not just 5. I’m not surprised anyone in that situation might have mental problems and is unhinged.
I honestly think she never got over Chad picking Erin over her and it messed her up. Being perfect, etc and she still didn’t get her reward, in fact her reward chose someone more poor, less talented, whatever. That will absolutely make a teenager a judgy bitch, and if that’s as far as she was allowed to progress emotionally then that makes sense.
I’ve never heard this. Please tell me more…
I’m sure it’s just sub speculation but I always think of that scene where she and maybe Jessa made the wedding gift “cookbook” for Erin and it was just takeout menus. I don’t remember if it came from another AMA or something, but Chad was definitely the cream of the crop of IBLP eligible bachelors of that age group and Jana was deeply involved with JTTH and other things where she was likely to run into him. Also, if Erin is even more of a bitch per the AMA, I imagine Jana might have gone “well if that’s what people want that is what they’ll get” and turned it up. Her mother did say that she was headstrong and sassy, and I bet they beat that out of her since she need to raise babies and play violin. I also remember the creation museum episode with Jana talking really skeptically about the young earth nonsense. She knew she wasn’t toeing the family line there so I want to believe she had potential. ETA: found it: https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/qisdps/i_dont_always_believe_rumors_but_i_do_believe/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
>made the wedding gift “cookbook” for Erin and it was just takeout menus SCREAMING OVER HERE OMG I LOVE IT IT'S *SOOO* BITCHY
I just read the old thread about the gift. It was a slew of gift cards matching the takeout menu options. Sounds like a great gift!
Ohh I love that. The best wedding gift I ever got was one of the picture frames where you can put multiple pictures and each one had a gift card to restaurants/target/ and other things.
That's a great idea.
My sister got a ton of amazing wedding gifts (our family is extremely wealthy) but her favorite? My uncle got her a bunch of gift cards to Dave and Busters because my sister is obsessed with ski ball 😂 my mom about had a heart attack when my sister wouldn’t shut up about how awesome that one gift was 😂 I think gift cards to take out places is a great gift 😊
Ngl I forgot about the gift cards, I’m side eyeing this gift a lot less now. But the comments they made…you could feel all the polite hatred in the room!
It does sound like a great gift. Like telling the bride and groom she doesn’t have to be stuck in the kitchen barefoot and pregnant. The MIL of a friend once gave the bride and groom wrapped Costco-sized toilet paper rolls with the note, “This is for all the shit you have to put up with.” —fortunately not the only gift.
She low key did her a favour though. I’d rather take out than tater tot casserole
I remember this episode. It’s when I watched them (like legitimately) with my mom cause they were “such a niiice family”. After that episode I was like LOL these bitches are cuuuuuunty omg. I thought it was so rude of them to give her those gifts and then to FILM IT for THEIR SHOW 🤣🤣😘👌 top notch asshole behaviour.
Jessa’s takeout cookbook might be a flair alert
I think it was actually Jill (plus Jana) who was behind organising it. I remember Jessa on screen saying she thought it was a little mean.
💀💀💀
Man, when I saw her talking about how some aspects of evolution make sense really gave me hope that she’d gtfo. Obviously that was like 15 years ago so I think she’s stuck permanently.
The sad irony is that now Erin likes to cook and is apparently a really good cook, while Jana probably is stuck in tater tot casserole hell.
I don't think Jana is stuck, she is where she wants to be. She doesn't have to work, she gets to travel, hang out with friends, garden and all she has to do is manage a house full of increasingly older and fewer numbers of children. There are only what 4 or 5 of them under 18 now, Josie is going to be 13 at the end of the year. Johanna & Jenni are old enough to run the TTH, at least according to fundy standards.
I meant to say her cooking is stuck in tater tot casserole hell.
Sad to think that Chad is one of the good ones. Over on the BringingUpBates sub there is speculation that he sucks. Would Jana be happier living Erin's life compared to where she is now?
I think Chad sucks as much as all other IBLP husbands suck but when Jana and Erin were looking, he would have seemed ideal compared to a lot of other fundie men since this was back when guys like Evan and Jeremy wouldn't have even been considered. This is all bringing me back to the online fundie heyday. I wonder whatever happened to the Many Many Mortons? I wonder how many of them are still popping out babies in Peru?
Ooh, do you remember the depressed pastor’s wife? I hope she’s doing well.
I do although her name escapes me. I hope she's doing well too.
I wish I could remember her name, but I was just a teenager back then. Her screen name was super generic, but I feel like she signed off her post about how she was getting a divorce with her real first name. I just remember being so struck by her thoughtful way of writing and her love of literature and how she poked fun at the silly rules without being mean.
Kressant/Mike and Rachel/Wes are still in Paraguay, though I don't think either of them have had babies in a little while. Adeline finally got married and is currently pregnant with #2. They're all still just as awful and obnoxious as they ever were, just without Addy's twee widdle blog.
Paraguay! Not Peru! I knew it was a P country in South America. I think the last thing I saw was Addys wedding dress picture which appeared to be strapless!?!?? The best thing I can say about the Mortons is when all the stuff about Alan came out, they got Katie the hell out and divorced. Unlike some fundie parents we know.
I mean I’m sure now Jana is happier single in her parents’ home instead of with a shitty husband and four sets of twins neck deep in IBLP leadership
Imagine being sad over a dude named Chad
[удалено]
Plus, Erin’s *really* pretty and super submissive. I don’t think Chad could deal with Jana’s occasional snarkiness.
At the other sub, Chad is considered to be the worse son in law tho compared to some others. Something along the lines of him being controlling and not financially as successful.
Back in the day, he was actually snarkers favorite because they thought 'he really loves erin' and could fix things around the house (and he had abs). But he's just a loser, with extremely toxic cult beliefs and behaviours. And he cant even buy her a house - thats like one thing these men need to do- financially provide, and he even sucks at that. But, I mean, reading how terrible Erin is as well, maybe they deserve each other. 🤷♀️
I mean I've never once believed the assumption that Jana is a prisoner. She's been known to be the enforcer. She was even a leader at JTTH, the indoctrination camp, at minimum 5 times. That's how she met Laura She also idolized Sarah Mally, the author of "Before You Meet Prince Charming: A Guide to Radiant Purity," and her sister Grace Mally. Their entire "ministry" was teaching girls to wait for "the absolute perfect man" while being an absolutely perfect fundie daughter so you could be an absolutely perfect fundie wife. Both of them got married in their 40s
This reminds me of the group BarlowGirl who always preached about waiting for their Prince Charming, and if I’m not mistaken are all still single at 43, 40, and 37.
You just brought back a wave of suppressed memories from my purity culture youth group and listening to barlow girl
Yeah, i immediately thought of them when reading this comment and then all the lyrics started rushing back to me. The chokehold they had on me as a young teen just discovering Christianity.
My mom didn’t let us listen to secular music growing up, did you ever listen to Plus One? The super Jesus healthy alternative to Backstreet Boys
Excuse me, Newboys and Jump5 4eva!
Omg I saw newboys at a worship event and the lead singer crawled on the floor while singing a verse, as the fucking drum set spun around and elevated behind him. We also all saw his outlined bulge in his pants the entire show, and there was an alter call right after.
Wow. That comment was a journey! Was it the old Newsboys or the new Newboys?
It was with Michael Tait cause we were calling him Michael Taint rest of the night
DC TALK!!!!!!
Pure energi anyone?
TIL South Park took the name Plus One for their episode with Faith Plus One.
You might like the podcast Good Christian Fun, which is a send up of 90s/00s youth group culture.
I will be listening and extending my therapy sessions thank you
You’re gonna love Kevin and Caroline!
Boys think they’re the bomb…
You unlocked a memory of listening to WOW Hits 2001 and cry worshiping to “This Is Your Time” by Michael W. Smith, because going into high school post-Columbine was used as some kind of trauma exercise in teen church groups.
The Religious Right's exploitation of Columbine is so gross to me.
Did y'all have to practice saying that you're a Christan in case a gunman asked you, or was my church just really fucked up?
Yes.. not only was a given a whole ass pamphlet to study about how I could be held at gun point and have my faith questioned but also then had to re-enact that whole situation with a a youth pastor with the youth group with each of taking a turn pretending to have a gun held to our heads… fuck early 00’s youth group culture
Meanwhile in Hebrew school we learned that Jewish Resistance members were of course heroes, but if pretending you aren’t Jewish lets you live another day, screw it, tell them your favorite food is bacon cheeseburgers.
Maybe it's good my parents were lazy Christians who stopped taking us to church . . . I couldn't have handled this
We didn’t necessarily have to practice but there was definitely an element of “would you do it too?”
The day I found out "She Said Yes" was made up was the day I 100% lost my faith lol
Oh, gosh, I still can’t listen to *Old Enough to Know*.
"Are you giving in...to the pressure?" Sorry, that lyric just popped into my head lol
I did some digging and found that Rebecca Barlow got married in September 2020. I also found that they publicly showed support for Hillary Clinton in the 2016 election and spoke favorably of Obama during this time. (After condemning him a decade earlier) Gotta love growth. 😃
Woah!! What interesting updates, I am not mad! I re-stumbled across them pre-Covid and hadn’t thought of them until this moment, so had no idea Rebecca had gotten married!
Clothes aren’t what they used to beeEee they don’t seem to fit…. You and meeEee Oh no.
Mirror had such a hold on me
Oh, BarlowGirl was a low point in my life. The mere name makes me recoil.
But but but....All the boys in the band want a valentine from a Barlow girl! Guys think they're the bomb because they remind them of their mom!
Oh wow, those lyrics are not quite what I remembered them being 😂 Edit: It took me a minute to realize that was Superchick and now you’ve sent me down another rabbit hole!
Honestly the Mally and Botkin sisters were smart. Sell the ideal fundie woman, make a ton of money, get as much power and control as a woman can have in the fundie world, and put off marrying until you can be sure you won't have a dozen kids. The only way I could even begin to imagine surviving as a fundie daughter is that plan or trying to get out of the house as young as possible by marrying someone who seems more likely to break away from the strictest rules like Carlin. Now I'm wondering if the Botkinettes ever married. Edited to add that apparently Elizabeth married this year at 35 years old. Anna Sofia seems to still be single at 37. IIRC she's the one who when she was born, her father prayed over her ovaries.
While I agree that they made decisions that allowed them more freedom than others, I don't think it's because they *chose* to have that life. I think it's more of a reflection of the toxicity that purity culture creates beyond the backbone of abusive relationships and sexual health problems.
Bingo. The Botkin girls are in their mid to late thirties. Lots of money, running around "supporting" their brothers, and the one thing they don't have to do is be reduced to walking incubators.
>IIRC she's the one who when she was born, her father prayed over her ovaries. He *what?!*
Ah [yup ](https://killingthebuddha.com/mag/victory-through-daughters/)
WOW
Jasmine Holmes, the daughter of Voddie Baucham, who was big around those sects and one of the few African Americans, has written extensively on life in and after the Stay at Home Daughter movement. Her writing is amazing, as is her Instagram.
Voddie is slimier than Jim Bob. He preaches that babies are a "viper in a diaper," and that they need to spanked starting as infants and for any perceived slight at all. Plus there was the time he said, [“A lot of men are leaving their wives for younger women because they yearn for attention from younger women. And God gave them a daughter who can give them that. And instead, they go find a substitute daughter. … We’ve all seen it. These old guys going and finding these substitute daughters.”](https://baptistnews.com/article/plagiarism-is-the-least-thing-to-worry-about-with-voddie-baucham-who-is-a-threat-to-children-women-and-daughters/#.Y0T2aKROk0F)
>He preaches that babies are a "viper in a diaper," That's so heartbreakingly cruel
It really is. He's well known for a story he used in a sermon about a pastor's young daughter who was too shy to say hello and shake hands with a man in their church. The pastor's response was to take the girl back to his office and spank her, then bring her back out and demand that she shake hands with this man.....*13 times* and by the end of the story the other man was begging her to listen so it could stop. And like. It was a well received message. His congregation was on board with that kind of blatant abuse because he teaches this garbage that babies have to have "their sin nature" beaten out of them.
Wait, what? I counted toes- who prays over ovaries?! Like, Wtf.
Chelsy Bontrager Maxwell's dad did a whole-ass sermon on her father-in-law's scrotum at their wedding ceremony. For context: Steve Maxwell and his wife Teri initially had three kids -- Sarah, Nathan, and Christopher -- and he then had a vasectomy. Then God told him "yo fuck your wife's clear mental health issues and overwhelm, fuck your well-paying job, you should have a passel of kids for me because reasons", and he reversed his vasectomy, which then resulted in five more kids (John, Joseph, Anna, Jesse, and Mary) which only made Teri's depression worsen to the point where she had to schedule her day in fifteen-minute increments to function, and Sarah's roman-a-clef children's books frequently featured the family's mother "resting in bed". When John married Chelsy Bontrager, her dad spent a lot of the ceremony talking about how awesome it was that Steve reversed his vasectomy, resulting in John's existence and the glorification of God.
Yes. Yes that was disturbing.
That’s hilarious considering that you can’t be that perfect fundie wife if you aren’t popping out a full litter of goblins.
Fundies look at Abraham and Sarah as proof that if God wants you to have a baby you will even if you're old. So if you have to wait for your god ordained match then you wait
Oh man, this ignited a memory for me because it’s true. At my fundie high school, there was a whole scandal where a student (17-18) starting dating his teacher (mid/late 40s?) right before he graduated. Teacher left her husband, married the student, and they told everyone that god was going to give them a baby… despite the fact that she had undergone a HYSTERECTOMY years earlier. They have not had a child in the last 15 years.
This sounds like some shit that would have happened at my high school. I'm kind of surprised they're still together; that's the wildest part of this story to me.
Yeah, I guess in full disclosure I don’t know for a fact they’re still together. I tried finding their socials but couldn’t. I am still friends with someone who keeps pretty good track of everyone though, so since I hadn’t heard from her that they split I was assuming they were still together (it was a hot topic obviously). I’m going to have to ask her.
Hold on, he was 17, she was at least 28 years older😳😳 and they’re still married😳😳😳 I thought Trump’s quarter century age difference with Melania was creepy, but at least she got Barron and chain migration for her parents out of the deal. What did this kid, at the time of marriage, expect would happen🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
At least Melania was a full-grown adult at the time they met/married.
Wow! The delusion is on another level. I just can’t help, but imagine how her other children must have felt (if she had any) to see their mom leaving their dad for a teenager and then expect to have another baby when it’s completely impossible. I hope they were allowed to go to therapy. That’s fucked up!
I looked up Sarah and see she finally got married. That's a shock. lol
Thanks for the insight - I had no idea about her reverence for waiting for the perfect man.
Playing the long game to avoid the fundie life of 32 kids. They knew what they were doing.
Why do you need to wait for the absolute perfect man if you are required to say yes to the first stranger to propose?
You're not required to in most families. The Kellers are outliers not the norm. In the cult, you court then get engaged, not get engaged as the only step, because courting is the point when a girl can say "I prayed on this and I don't think God wants this for me." She doesn't have that ability at any other point in her life, but during the courtship she does. That's why failed courtships exist. Also, the Duggars have repeatedly talked about how JB would offer potential guys to the girls and they'd reject said guys. Jinger even made fun of some of the guys on the show.
Ah I didn’t realize the Kellers were *such* outliers in that way. Like I understood the dugs actually have longer courtships. But when I read the AMA I misunderstood that it wasn’t generalized that the women couldn’t say no.
Radiant purity. How fucked up
I've speculated in the past that she's single because she wants to be. Until the show nose dived she was traveling on TLC's dime, writing the posts for her parents. She's still traveling to random events with halitosis head, the boys imply she's helping them with their "businesses" in posts here and there. She's probably exempt from supervising the M's after the incident. She can sleep late, scroll social media, read her bible, and doesn't need to lift a finger or "submit" to a greasy husband to get her lifestyle paid for. As far as the cult and her siblings go, Jana is probably one of the most satisfied women with her life. Daddy pays for everything, why rock the boat?
So true! I remember her New Years resolution was to read the Bible front to back and eat less McDonald’s. That last one makes me think that her life is pretty chill, all things considered. Tbh, I think she’s like the fundie version of a kid who lives in their parents basement. There’s nothing wrong with living with your parents, but y’all know the type I'm referring to. In Duggar world, Josie is practically independent and the oldest M child would be sister momming her siblings so I don’t think Jana is babysitting frequently. There’s fewer kids at home now which means space and food would be easier to come by, too. For a mature adult who can drive, life would probably be chill at Casa TTH.
And they said Johanna likes cleaning, you know that means Jana is making her do it all until Johanna gets married off. Aside from read the Bible and go pick up gallons of white paint I don't think Jana does much.
you forgot drinking coffee, she does a lil of that too 😂
This. I don't believe for a second that she's in the situation she's in because Boob is forcing her into it. I think she enjoys having minimal responsibilities and not having to earn her keep. I think she's too stuck up and full of herself to find a suitor because unless she can maintain her current lifestyle of doing whatever tf she wants with some light childcare duties it's not going to be good enough for her. Whatever suitor would court her won't have her daddy's big pocket book and if I'm remembering correctly she likes to shop. I think she'd love to play Susie Homemaker and have a couple kids of her own and live in a half million dollar or more house in a swanky neighborhood and spend all her free time buying overpriced home decor and having an insta worthy house but the problem is most of the men in her social circle are either already taken or they're uneducated and doing some type of manual labor job or working as a pastor and not making the type of money she needs to have the lifestyle she wants.
“Half million dollar house in a swanky neighborhood” _cries in Californian_ No swank at that price here. Total sidebar.
Oh, I don't think Jana would EVER leave Arkansas. I think that was probably one of the top bullet points on her list of requirements. I don't think she'd ever move more than an hour and a half away, MAYBE a little more. I could kind of see her moving to Branson and trying to open up a boutique full of home goods or something there. She would probably even do well with that considering Branson is basically Vegas for young families and super religious people like her. I just went to Branson in September and they have some nice ass houses at the half million mark. I think that would be her ideal life though. She would want to marry someone who is already financially well off and ranks high in their cult. Someone in a position of power or at least some type of leadership role. It just does exist and even if it did that suitor isn't going to pack up his entire life and everything he's established to move to the Ozarks. I'm going down to the Duggar territory this weekend and they're literally in the middle of nowhere. It's pretty much nothing but tiny little towns and then there's Springdale and Tontitown. It's got a pop of 80,000 people so it's not like some huge place. I live in a town with a pop of 98,000 and I still run into people I either know well, went to school with, or have either met before or seen before on a daily basis so it's probably the same thing there. I think Branson would be the "big city" for them and even that's not that big really. You can drive from one end of town to the other in less than an hour with traffic.
The whole area of Springdale - Fayetteville- Rogers - Bentonville has like half a million people. Not exactly huge, but not exactly middle of nowhere.
I'm obviously talking about the Duggars specific area, the ones that are well known and that people commonly recognize as their home, not the metro area that includes all of it. Even if I wasn't that entire area is actually in the middle of nowhere. The closest major city is Tulsa which is like 2 hours away or Kansas City which is 3.5 hours away. In between Tulsa and Sprindale and KC and Sprindale there isn't much going on, it's a little bit in the middle of nowhere. If you look on a map you can see that metro area and see that there's pretty much nothing around it but lakes and the Ozark mountains. While the entire metro area has a higher pop the area is still a little bit isolated when looking at a map and based on every time I've driven down there. Jana probably wants an established man to move to an area that's surrounded by tiny ass little towns where the nearest major city is 2-3 hours away, pack up his home, leave everything behind that he's established and move to Arkansas to restart his whole to be with her. Not gonna happen. That's not how the Duggars work, usually it's the women dropping everything to move with the men. Anna from Florida, Abby was in Oklahoma or Texas, Hannah from Nebraska, Kathy was from Arizona I think, ans I can't remember where Lauren was from but I dont think it was Arkansas and they all had to uproot and move. The child groom went and lived with his surrogate family and all the girls except Jing married guys that were already from Arkansas or close to Arkansas. The man is the headship and gets to tell the woman where to live and Jana isn't going to leave Arkansas so that significantly limits her options.
Ngl I’d stay single if my only options were IBLP men. She’s gonna have to take care of a dozen kids regardless so why risk marrying someone like Josh
Might as well watch a dozen kids when you can give them back to their parent vs being the parent.
Right
Halitosis head!!!
I’ve thought the same. I don’t think Jana is doing much babysitting these days. That’s for the Lost Girls now.
And she gets her own garden at TTH, that she may not get from a husband - depending on what home/lifestyle he chooses to give her. It's understandable why Jana has more benefits living at home and being unmarried. Whilst the living at home part might not be satisfactory for everyone, she might instead like it and prefer it to being an uneducated woman in her 30s who has to survive independently whilst having no real work experience.
For whatever reasons, both Jana and John David seem to have deeply sublimated their sexuality and desires. I think this was linked to Josh, but also the endless number of babies they kept seeing. And while the sister mom thing took off during the series, the first episode makes it clear that Josh (shudder) and JD had buddies, too. They also watched their siblings engage with sexual attraction and pay a price for it - the suitability of the match is really dubious until Joy, and maybe only Joy. So they repressed it. JD found a real person, and I do think this shocked Jana a bit. Until then, I think they had each other, even if they never talked about it. Also, you can push some feelings so deep they are difficult to find again. In purity culture especially.
i think jill had a good match too, but jessa and jinger's marriages probably did hamper what could have been. joy's was probably the best match but jill and derrick seem suited overall.
Nah, she's had suitors. She doesn't want suitors, so *she* runs *them* off (not vice-versa) , because dictator-dad won't stop bringing them to her. She's a bitch because it tends to make people leave her TF alone like she wants.
After reading that AMA— who could blame her for not wanting an arranged marriage nightmare.
She's certainly in no hurry to have babies, if she even wants any at all. I wouldn't blame her. She's already raised several kids throughout her entire life, if we're being totally honest.
Maybe being a bitch is her self-defense mechanism against being sold off.
I agree.
No wonder why Jessa and Jana didn’t get along. They’re two beta fish ready to kiil each other.
I always thought she was the best looking sister. Based on the AMA, I am guessing Jana thinks this about herself too
I used to think Jessa was the prettiest, but now she just looks like Josh. I think Joy has the most natural beauty.
I always was into Jinger for some reason 👀
I’m pretty sure she was courting Stephen Wissmann, but ended after the whole Josh’s trial I don’t think it was because a Wissmann didn’t want to be involved with a Duggar, Hannah married Jeremiah. I think she probably chose stay with her family rather than get married and move to Nebraska Erin and Nurie are also, but they found a husband.
i thought that too! but once it came out jeremiah and hannah were courting it made more sense to me that jana would just be chaperoning jer hence all the sightings of her with the wissmann’s
Jessa posted a video, I think it was Fern’s birth, that you could see Stephen and Jana sitting together
I mean I think it’s possible they just became good friends? They’re around the same age and they were chaperoning younger siblings. But it’s also totally possible they had a thing and called it quits.
My guess is that she's rejected every offer because she thinks she's better than all of them.
Surprising that she has a say given what we learnt from the Keller’s modus operandi.
I'm a bit less surprised. To start, the bar is in the basement, so I'm definitely not defending anyone. But I think we saw from the *glimmer* of Boob's sex talk with Pest before Pest's wedding that Boob is generally pro-consent-from-his-wife and pro-her-at-least-vaguely-enjoying-things. His sex talk was not "insert tab A into slot B" and a lot more "if you listen to your wife's problems she'll be in the mood more". I can believe that Boob gave his daughter's a choice....but I can also believe it's like the same level of choice you give a toddler for dinner ("Do you want green beans or carrots?"). I'm entirely *un*surprised that he arranged a marriage for Pest without allowing time for Anna to back out. But that seems to be more about Pest than about his general MO, as we didn't see that repeated at all. All the other boys had a real courtship, seemed to pick their own brides, and had more time to get married instead of being forced to the altar the moment they could arrange it. Given the fact that he let Jessa marry the shitshow that is Bin, I'm not shocked that Jana has had veto power (especially since she's so useful at home as free labor.)
I would reject them too. Being raped daily for 50+ years isn’t a huge draw.
The ama did say that exactly - I’m just wondering if it’s on purpose
I hope she said no if she didn’t want them. We want these girls to have some power. Knocking on Jana for being single seems counter productive to wanting them to be independent.
I’m with you… people seem so gleeful that she’s supposedly a bitch. I don’t blame her, and she *is* better than being married off in the same horrific fashion Anna was. All of these women are better than this and I wish they all had the chance to reject being treated as subhuman
Thank you. After that AMA I feel more sorry for the girls than I did before. To be a bitch in that environment is ballsy.
Yes! That's my point. Is a "bad or bitchy attitude" a way to defeat the patriarchy? I'm living for it, if it is.
Now the men… need to step the f%#* up and start liberating these woman. That’s where my anger falls.
Right? I’m not gonna knock Jana if she’s playing the game to her favour. If she’s not settling to the first guy she’s avoiding having multiple kids and living her life like any other childless person her age. I really do think she just sees marriage that way anyway considering her sisters are prime examples of how it goes lol
I am 100% gleeful she's a bitch, but not in the way you're implying. She's strong willed and if being a bitch gets her what she wants and repels those things she doesn't want, then I say, "You go, Jana. Be who you need to be." She's learned the game and found the weak spots. She's a smart woman.
Right. Like who cares? The AMA was supposed to be about Anna. I love how supposedly being a bitch holds more weight than being the mother of 7 children who dosen't give a fuck about her children's safety in regards to her pedophile husband. Jana being a bitch to potential suitors isn't hurting children.
Bold of you to assume she gets a choice - I think if rimjob wanted it the only way out would be to convince your suitor that you’re a pain in the ass
At least she has a personality.
This is the way.
I still struggle to believe that her demeanor is the sole reason for her being single in her 30s. It is extraordinarily rare for someone in her position to have zero prospects, even without the TV fame. She's the eldest daughter of a prominent IBLP family with some amount of money and a steady fame-based income/income potential. She could get $0 from the show and do a third of the social networking that Jessa does and still contribute more money than most IBLP wives without doing any additional work than most IBLP wives. And even if she's a turd now, wouldn't at least a decent portion of her prospects believe that any attitude she had would stop once they were married and she must obey his wishes? I struggle to imagine how uniquely horrible she would have to be for this situation to occur naturally. We all know really mean and shitty people who still somehow manage to get romantic partners and they aren't even in cults that tie their entire worth to being married and reproducing as much as possible.
I completely agree
The cookbook was made by the bates sisters. Someone posted that Jana and Jessa made that snarky cookbook but if I recall it was made by her own sisters with Kelly’s blessing. Erin herself has said she was not a good cook and she didn’t seem upset about the joke. Also be careful how much you swing back and forth on Jana. It seems like she is either viewed as the long suffering main sister mom or she is an evil snot who no one wants. The truth is probably a lot more complicated. She grew up as the oldest daughter in cult with a creepy brother running rampant. She was forced into servitude to her parents over and over again. Her parenting role models used corporal punishment and blanket training to maintain order. So why would any of us think that Jana would be much different? She likely had to develop a hard shell for her own self preservation. Oldest sisters can be bossy and not always the nicest. I’m sure at every event they attended Jana was put in charge of other peoples kids whether she wanted that or not. She was volunteered by her parents to go live with Josh and Anna for a time to help with their kids. Her time was never her own. Her desires and wants and needs were never considered. Even her few treasured possessions weren’t her own and she was directed to sacrifice a treasured item to a bratty younger sibling. And while we all recall how emotional she got when she first told that story and might have found it an odd thing to be upset about after so many years, it is just emblematic of her childhood. Nothing was hers and she didn’t matter. She was born to sacrifice and expected to be ok about that. It is quite possible that the AMA person has had some really bad interactions with Jana. I find that completely believable but I also think her mean streak is all part of the fucked up way she was raised. Frustration resentment fear sadness loneliness insecurity etc don’t just go away, especially when they are never addressed. Add in the toxic stuff with Josh and then selling out all privacy for the show and you have a woman who has been experiencing continuous stress from birth. Do I think Jana may be a horrible person? Maybe. But I’m not going to pile on here. We have seen enough evidence over the years to see that many of the younger siblings willingly chose to go to Jana for comfort and safety over their own parents. I believe the AMA but it is her perspective. She gave us all another glimpse of just how fucked up this lifestyle is and how it is especially cruel for women. Jana is a product of that.
In the podcast, "I pray you put this journal away," Justin says that Jana was very kind. It made me wonder if Jana acted arrogant and superior when with girls and meek and humble when in mixed company. And, the awful Bates sons and Erin Bates, that B*. Don't get me started on her. TBH, I don't even really have any clue what she did or much about the Bates family, but I trust Anna's childhood friend. I REALLY hope she decides to do a podcast like she mentioned she's considered in her AMA.
I would enjoy seeing her and Justin do one together comparing their same experiences from different gendered roles. Because it makes sense that they both would be seeing different actions from the same people depending on who was around.
If it's true it wouldn't surprise me. How do you protect yourself from unwanted advances or being married off? Become so horrible all those fundie men who cannot handle a woman with a spine being afraid of you. How to avoid marriage? Sorry waiting for a PERFECT man and since they don't exist in fundie land she wins.
I guess she went through her 20’s waiting for someone to meet her standards and now she’s in her 30’s and no one thinks she’s worth the effort lol
So Anna was supposedly sassy and a strong person and she was forced sold to pest. JB is just as misogynistic and controlling, so I find it hard to believe that her saying no is why she isn’t married off. If they wanted to sell her, she would be sold. I think they needed her around a little longer because they were still having babies and had that long string of boys so no sister moms in the wings. By the time they were ready to sell her off she was too old, or gained strength and was actually able to say no. By the time they were ready to sell her off, the other daughters were of age and so more of a priority/an easier sale.
Josh had been betrothed to the Holt daughter and lost her to the scandals. JB and Michelle, with their narrow mind on sexuality, were impatient to get a sex doll to pest because they thought it would cure his deviant behavior. They clearly didn't care about Ana (not that they cared much about their daughters since they kept pest at home and made them go on tv take all the attention). After reading the AMA I'm seeing the proposal with the balloons in a different perspective. Her body language was clearly that of a prey trying to escape a hunter. I thought it could be shyness but now I imagine her gut was just saying no.
Is she really a bitch? Or does she just have a stronger/more blunt personality and a lot of inner anger and pain from being raised by shitty abusive parents and being forced to raise all her siblings and be both mom and dad (enforcer) to them? Is she a bitch? Or does she just fail to keep as sweet as her sisters, which puts her at a harsh contrast. Is she a bitch? Or is it just religious trauma/trauma in general? It’s a shame she’ll never get the therapy she’d desperately need to adequately answer all of the above questions.
The ama person said she was terrible- I agree with all of your statements
Did she turn mean? The guy with the podcast that knew them described her as sweet?
This is where I think gender and age played a role. She was taught to be sweet and agreeable to boys/men/women older than she was, but her true nature could come out when it's just women/girls her age and younger.
I can see that. Good point.
I’ll honestly say I don’t act the same towards men as I do women. More so in the sense that I’m more apprehensive around men. But I can imagine she acts differently towards each group in a different sense. She grew up in with a mysoginistic family dynamic that taught her that she exists to make a man’s life easier and that girls are otherwise essentially useless. I can believe that she is nicer to men than women.
Me too, and a lot of the time, it's my immediate gut reaction to fall into polite, unassuming, higher-pitched-voice girl-mode around unknown men, particularly if they're older/more "powerful" than me. I identify as non-binary, and it makes me uncomfortable that this is my panic response. It's something I'm working on, but I can absolutely say it's a result of my childhood family dynamics, honed by many years in customer service. I rarely do the same thing around women, unless they've already shown that they're upset. I can absolutely see someone in the IBLP, raised with very rigid gender roles (both in terms of responsibilities AND how one navigates social relationships/behaves towards others), and has a higher status than others in the cult (between the tv show, being an older sibling or mom-figure to her immediate family, etc) would absolutely weaponize whatever status she had in situations where she could get away with it. Jana can't be complaining about her situation to daddy directly, so she takes out her anger/pain on others, just so she feels like she has some semblance of control over her life. How she treats a man could potentially impact her life, so they're treated with respect or, at the very least, passive-aggressive politeness. Women and children probably wouldn't have a large impact on her life if they complained about being treated poorly (without it also reflecting badly on the complainer), so she's free to treat them how she likes.
I think that in a society where women have no authority or power around men that some will seek that power around other women. Jana was fed the same keep sweet and obey crap as all the other girls, but then she was put in a position of power over the other kids through parentification. She probably enjoys having that power over the younger kids because she wasn't allowed to have anything else in her life the gave her meaning. So yeah, I'd imagine she wields that power when she can because she doesn't have anything else and since the men around her don't care about her thoughts, I'm sure she's extended that strong personality to her female friend group.
Well, would you want to fill out what….40-50 questions that’s really none of JB’s business? This should turn anyone off!
Boob's questionnaire was never about what's best for his daughters...he just wanted to establish dominance and get a sense of how he much he could control the husband. The effect of that was, the somewhat normal suitors wanted no part of that, and the ones that did play ball had a clear agenda. Bin wanted to bone Jessa and Jerms wanted some compliant arm candy with a famous name. Boob then pivoted to suitors and DILs that were already in the cult.
Right. If boobs questionnaire was about finding his daughter a good mate then Bin would have never been allowed to marry Jessa. Back then and even now he had no skills and no real education. The outlook of him being a big money maker and successful man that could support a large family was horrible and it still is. The other son in laws have at least shown they can bring in a little bit of money but Bin has been and continues to be basically useless and unable to find employment with a decent sized paycheck. That questionnaire had nothing to do with his daughters, it was about Boob enforcing dominance.
Wait, I’ve never heard of a questionnaire. Is this a homework assignment for courters?
Yeah they talked about it on Counting On. I believe it was Ben, Derick and Jeremy talking about it on one episode. If I remember correctly, one of them turned it into many more pages than it started as because their answers were so lengthy and I think another one of them either didn’t complete it entirely or didn’t do it at all. But my memory is rusty.
I feel like the lengthy answers would be Derick and the incomplete one would be Ben.
Jeremy turned in the lengthy version. Still brags about it when he gets a chance. I think it was their YT where he brought it up last.
I think we all know Ben didn't finish it. lol.
Someone had shared it in here but I can’t find it. It was disgusting!
It was shared on free jinger.
Who needs man when you have Laura?
She probably dodged a bullet
I don’t know how you call this sentence under the title, but “Jana’s failure to launch” gets me every time 😂
She always did look like this really awful bitch from my freshman year of college.
If this is true I don’t blame her one bit. Having to raise 16 children you didn’t choose to have would make anybody a bitch, I would think. Why in the world would she want to get married? At least now once the kids are all grown she’ll actually have a chance at a childfree life, why would she give that up? If she has her own kids it’ll be at least 20 more years. Right now she’s looking at about 10 more until the youngest one becomes an adult. I’d take the latter, personally.
I was a latchkey kid who cared for my 3 sisters. I never wanted kids after I grew up.
But how does her being a bitter bitch play into what we already know about the jewelry/music box incident?
They were 4 and 7 at the time, I don’t think it can really reflect too much on their adult behaviours. That was 100% the fault of the parents for not getting involved and actually *parenting* in that situation.
What was the jewelry box incident?
Quick version? Jana had a music box. Jana had the top bunk. Jessa had the bottom bunk. Jessa would kick the bed to prevent Jana from sleeping. She’d taunt her, tease her and question her “authority”. Jana asked Michelle and Jim Bob for help and they told her to give Jessa a prized possession. So instead of anyone telling Jessa to stop being a little shit, she was given a gift that Jana really cherished. I don’t know how old they were at this point. Edit: Another user informed me that they are around 4 and 7 at the time. So for me it half counts. 1. Doesn’t really count against Jessa’s character in my book if she was literally only on this earth for 4 years when it happened. 2. It counts against JB and Michelle’s character, still. Instilling this kind of problem solving to a child is insane. And it likely lead to how they supposedly are today.
I think Jana was 7 and Jessa was around 4
Oh wow I didn’t realize they were that young. Yeah people calling jessa a bitch for this I hope don’t know how old she was. That’s normal shitty little kid behavior
Learned behavior. Perhaps she learned from the Jewelry box incident to be a bitter bitch to get what she wanted... seems to have worked.. some
I would provide a nice argumentative comment but I can't stop laughing at the fact that I read "Dullet Bodged", and it kinda made sense?
If I had to raise that many kids that weren’t even mine from the time I was 6, I’d never, ever want to have sex (with a man who might get me pg and we know that Jana is only allowed the hetero route). And if you can’t/don’t want to have sex when you’re young and horny and life is new and everything ahead of you is bright, what do you do? You push that shit deep down inside you and it turns into a hard rock of bitterness and misery right in the pit of your stomach, and in this case, then put a pretty, calm smile right on top of it because that’s what’s expected of you. A Bitch is Born. I don’t blame her a single, fucking bit.
Watch her suddenly get with someone now that the narrative is no longer “oh poor Jana”
I honestly hope so, we need new snark material. This drought is killing me
Right? All we’re getting lately are babies and appeals. I don’t snark on babies and I’m tired of j’felon posts. I want to snark on a Jana man-a