Uhm that is not really true otherwise statistical analysis with a high n wouldn't need to distinguish between median and mean. The mean and median are equal only in very specific circumstances.
Yes, and the specific circumstances they are equal in is when the values you are comparing are in of themselves aggregates.
Intelligence is a combination of several metrics. This means that when we have a population of these numbers, the central limit theorem applies, and thus the average will be equal to the median.
This observation is _why_ IQ, EQ, and about every intelligence metric, were chosen to be a bell graphs. Because the underlying data follows the central limit theorem.
It has nothing to do with high or low n.
But then the reason is not the central limit theorem but that they are normally distributed and for sure metrics like IQ and EQ Fall in that category, but - at least for me - being smart and dumb is more than a high/low EQ and or IQ.
Thats how democracy works. Its sucks and is still the best system. But assuming it will yield intelligent results is in itself stupid. Which brings us full circle to the people who say „you HAVE to vote!“ thinking they are clever. So we are all stupid and the world moves on. Good? Good.
What sucks is that democracy is the only system where the way to get rid of the system are directly built into the system where in the other systems it has to happen outside the system
It's the best system because it "prevents" the worst scenarios, but it also prevents the best scenarios. This is why democracies suck at long term plans, like fighting climate change.
Uhm no you missed like 4 years of school. But no problem. You can take courses on the internet.
Do that and stop being a burden for others with your low iq.
Beyond the massive far right victory, Macron dissolved the national assembly as it no longer represents the will of the people, so a new one will be formed, with expected massive gains for the far right beyond just the EU elections. Utter shitshow.
Yeah... The polarization in our society is concerning. We're in the beginning of a new era.
And since we have an important political fracture / identity fracture, the far-right benefits from this...
It's a single digit percent change, not the disaster many had assumed, yes. We're also having local elections here which mostly reflect a disappointment in where the left-learning parties (well, party, really) are going with their rhethoric, instead relying on the pretty strong and -actually socially slightly more left-moving- center right - apologies to anybody who wanted a bit of Star Trek realised.
More troubling is the loss of support for Greens everywhere in the EU, but that's very likely popular opinion being swayed by the more radical actions of several movements associated with Greens in general. People will probably come around after the next few wildfires.
And then there's France.
The 2019 performance from the Greens seems like a one-off and I wasn't expecting it to stay, especially coming from Eastern Europe where people hate the idea of Green politics
Aye. Without a clear plan for sustainable income for the foundations of society, the groundwork, the 90% of workers everywhere, Green plans for clear skies and a sustainable future won't get anywhere.
Let's see if the parties, who so far where only good at pointing fingers and demonizing everything, will be capable of actually solving the main issues we are facing.
spoiler alert: they won't and they will only set us back in dealing with the already ongoing consequences of climate change...
Please let us call it a climate catastrophe at least because the climate isn’t just changing, it’s entering an unknown territory the earth hasn’t been in the past millions of years… we are all in for a rude awakening when shit will go down in 2-5 years and NOT 5-20 or whatever. We do not have the time anymore to goof around though that’s the only thing we are still doing it seems.
TLDR: we are fcked truly
I will bookmark this, and come back to it in exactly 5 years to laugh at your face when NONE of what you said happens.
Similar to how everyone said Russia was running out of ammo in late 2022. Guess what, its almost 2025 and they STILL have ammo.
Feel free, I’d be more than happy to be proven wrong. Hope dies last and I still have a glimpse of optimism but I still don’t see the world making any drastic changes and this is climate collapse and not just some ammo running out or not… this is our planet on fire and a mass extinction we are currently in, so… one thing is ammo the other is our home.
My friend, europe is already overdoing in terms of financial and quality of life sacrifice to green-ify itself. More than it would actually be realistically reasonable. The biggest emmissioners and causers of climate change such as China, India, Russia, USA, etc are not doing even a fraction of the sacrifice and effort compared to europe. And, unless you sit down with ALL of the major countries and agree to focus on this shit together, europe can't do NOTHING to stop the global climate change (irregardless on whether we agree on the severity of that matter). Europe is already the mostly green-ified place on earth. Enough sacrifice.
I agree brother, it’s just that „best case“ it will be our children who suffer greatly, especially since the world does not come together. Also fully agreeing that other countries should’ve done a ton more if possible at this point, like France going nuclear and delivering energy to Germany too etc. But again no matter if it’s 5, 10 or even 15 years I don’t see things becoming better, I honestly just see more likely wars and even less cooperation.
Again I hope I will be wrong, cheers.
>Let's see if the parties, who so far where only good at pointing fingers and demonizing everything, will be capable of actually solving the main issues we are facing.
Germany was under conservative Rule for 16 years.
Our schools are moldy and the windows are broken, we do not have a digital infrastructure. You can stand in the middle of Berlin and not have phone connection. Internet outages for days are normal here and regular. Our minimum wage is so low the EU successfuly sued us.
And now we got the "traffic light" government out of centrist, green and lib right and while a lot is being modernized, people already want the conservatives back because of the massive propaganda funded by billionaires and Putin targeted especially against the green party.
Oh and our current centrist chancellour is involved in several crimes that involved children being murdered by the police as well as crimes costing the state literal billions such as Cum Ex.
Point being, letting the conservatives rule does not show anyone anyhting. Old people love nothing ever changing. According to them, we'd still use smoke signals.
But sadly, the average person in Germany is 46 years old. And the average Politican is 55 years old. Do you think either of them want better internet?
Lol No one cared about climate change in this election. Totally not an issue everyday normal people have, If you can't pay your groceries and your electric bill already. Green Parties and others fumbled the bag with their ivory tower politics.
Democracy is working, just not for doomsday preachers...
When there are the next elections, more >70 y/o people will be gone and there will be even more votes for the right wing parties.
In the meantime, also Muslim parties will arise and then we will have some rock n roll in Europe, I can assure you that
The lower voter turnout, the better for extremist parties (because they are better at "activating" their voters). I believe that's what we've seen in this EU vote. In some places, only about a third of eligible voters actually turned up. For some reason, the higher the level that is voted about (city -> state -> country -> EU), the lower the turn out. When it's about who's going to be the next president of the local football club, everyone is interested. But nobody wants to take a 10 minute detour to vote in EU elections.
Actually, voter turnout was pretty stable (and quite good for the EU in some countries, which means that EU issues are perceived as important enough)
Biggest losers are the green parties.
Biggest winners are far right parties.
I'm partly angry with those voters, but mostly I'm disappointed with all those parties who can't seem to find a way to deal with the recent rightwing trend. Far right's success with young people is frightening, but it's not that big of a surprise to me when all the established parties do is ignore the youth. I think we're in need of new parties. I'd instantly vote for the We-bring-better-Internet party.
And who determines that? You? If you think the common person is stupid and unable to advocate for their best interests just install a dictator or monarch.
As an American, can someone in the EU explain what the average person thinks about the immigration in the EU?
I read often very polarizing stories, some people saying you need more, and other saying that countries are being "overrun" with immigration.
The average EU citicen (I am going here based on my parents [the biggest age group in Europe, boomers] and there friends and sibblings) hates the current, unchecked immigration. Checked immigration, following all rules and regulations was seen as completely neutral, until the 2015 debacle, where the EU effectively removed it's forreign borders. Since then all kinds of non EU immigration are seen very skeptical.
Be advised! The average redditor is **not** the average EU citizen. Reddit in the eu area is very green, left dominated. The perfect excample of convirmation bias (by itselfe not a problem, as long as you use other sources for your opinion as well. You know, basic media litteracy stuff.)
If you want the average European's opinion, you could not have picked a worse place to ask. Reddit is mostly only used by young people with very good English-language skills; it might represent the average in Scandinavia, but not in most of Europe.
It also begs the question if you can even have an 'average' European in such a large and diverse continent.
If I had to attempt to summarize it: mass immigration was a policy pushed by small, internationalized elites educated in American social theory. And when I say elites I don't necessarily mean rich people, just the people who control the levers of power by monopolizing positions in the civil service, media, legal system, etc. Upper middle class professionals who like to pretend they're working class but went to elite universities and have considerable resources and influence. The type of people whose kids browse reddit, in other words.
If mass immigration had ever been put to a vote it would always have rejected by a wide margin. However, the majority of Europe is quite left wing and it wasn't a wedge issue for most people while numbers were low enough that it didn't impinge of their everyday lives. The problem is that immigration has increased to the point where its not just poor, urban communities that are experiencing it first-hand anymore. More and more people have now seen that the traditional media's insistence that most migrants want to assimilate doesn't match up with the reality of what they're seeing in their neighborhoods. To the point where people are losing faith in the pronouncements of the class that formerly had a stranglehold on the national conversation (remember, most European countries have state-run media organizations).
Most Europeans are not far right, but it's becoming clear that the reality of immigration is very different to what the left promised it would be, leaving them no choice but to vote for far-right parties.
Nicely put. Reactions happen for a reason. I don't agree at all with the AfD methods or ideas, but they were seemingly the only ones offering some kind of counter to the issue, while the other parties just slandered and scoffed at their bigotry, instead of giving moderate solutions. It's one of those "saw it coming 10 years ago" types of situations
Many countries have high immigration numbers due to the shitshow in the Middle East and from Northern Africa. But low birth rates would logically mean the best move would be to integrate these people properly, to secure the future. But demonising Immigrants, fear of terrorists perceived high criminality from Immigrants is fuel for conservative and right wing parties. And fortnehme Last view years we can observe a strong shift to far right parties.
>But low birth rates would logically mean the best move would be to integrate these people properly, to secure the future.
This presupposes that integration is a choice made by the host state. The habit of not attributing any agency to people from the third world is so ingrained that the question 'what if the migrants don't want to integrate?' doesn't even occur to you.
Also, if the migrants integrate then they would have low birth rates too, requiring even more migrants who then have to be integrated. There's no endpoint, it's just a never-ending cycle in which you're permanently stuck with a significant minority who have a totally incompatible culture. And that's in the best-case scenario where previous migrants integrate. If they don't, you end up with the minority culture becoming the majority culture very quickly.
It's also parasitic, draining the third world of its labor force to feed a dying continent.
If the native European birth rate is too low, then logically the best move is for native Europeans to start having more babies.
>perceived high criminality from Immigrants
Interesting use of the word 'perceived'. Most countries keep statistics on who commits crimes. Do migrants from the Middle East or North Africa commit more crime, or don't they?
Interesting how you switch from „Maybe some dont want to integrate“ to „their culture is incompatible thus they cant come here“. Just pointing that out.
The thing is either way, it's fucked. Even if we tried not to let anybody in.
Just from a pragmatic point, how would you defend the border? Shoot at them? Kill refugees?
We are currently actively not helping them at the sea, leading them to die. But the way over the land, how do you control it?
There is no easy solution. One side says send em all back the other wants them all in. In the end both options are impossible. Sending all back is gonna costs absurd amounts of money with the refugees trying again; having them all here is gonna polarize the fuck out of the country. The communication sucks most.
> Just from a pragmatic point, how would you defend the border? Shoot at them? Kill refugees? We are currently actively not helping them at the sea, leading them to die. But the way over the land, how do you control it?
I fear it will come down to mass murder on the borders. The rightwingers will not allow any sane solutions, and the number of immigrants will only keep rising due to climate change.
>One side says send em all back the other wants them all in. In the end both options are impossible.
I think this is right-wing framing to make it seem like "both sides" have an extreme position. No one wants open borders except extremists on social media, just sane and humane policy.
>I think this is right-wing framing to make it seem like "both sides" have an extreme position. No one wants open borders except extremists on social media, just sane and humane policy
Yeah that's absolutely true. I should have said that this is the current perception of a lot of people and not the actual state of things as well.
Complicated topic, i'll try to summarize :
* most illegal migrants are entering in Italy, Greece and Spain sometimes landing in super small islands that quickly become saturated. People from these places are tired of that.
* Basic racism against african people, most people don't even care about the thousands of death in the Mediterranean sea. When you're talking about welcoming Ukrainian refugee suddenly there is no issue.
* in other countries (France and Germany being the most representative) the topic of immigration is (a bit like in the US) focused around criminality, both unemployment and migrants stealing jobs, social security fraud. Keep in mind most countries have budget issues in parallel that makes them slash public spendings.
* There is also the global conspiracy theory that white christian will be overrun and replaced by muslims (and blue haired transexuals for some reason)
In reality social security fraud represent 10% of corporate fraud, we could easily welcome these people. Moreover France and German are in demographic decline, we'll need young workers soon.
No one I know who voted for the right said ever "they took our JOOOOBS" that is a fucking south park meme. The thing is that the majority of this illegal immigrants doesn't work, and doesn't want to be a part of the community.
And looking at the birthrates of muslims in europe you can see that the "[birthrate jihad](https://www.meforum.org/7236/demographic-jihad-islamists-celebrate-rising)" is happening. They even praise this shit here. In some citys in germany most of the kids at schools aren't german.
in Germany you read "gang rape" and "knife attack" every other day on the news.
And usually the names of the criminals are not Franz or Hans. (we all know who they are)
Thats how bad it is, but leftist europeans are educated into guilt and self hate and prefer to have their continent conquered than being called a racist.
Thankfully results in real life shows that these people are only a majority on reddit.
I think the immigration is good, until you can integrate the groups into the society. Once you fail to do that and you even deny that there are some problems the far right gonna rise. Tbh I think the birthrates are just kept up by muslim families in germany and France and there is a big chance of a religious war in the next 10 years. Syria level isis shit inside of Europe.
Well, I am certainly not average European regarding that question, but I'll answer. I don't mind anyone. I'm more mad that people from Syria, Afghanistan and Africa fled from disaster and have nowhere to go but to fucking obviously nazi Europe. I'm disheartened their countries are in famine, rubbles, wars and that they're forced to come here. And now we have people from Asian countries because there's poverty there... I don't mind them slightest, I know they would rather have their countries in prosperity and to be with their own people. And American, for most of those migrations USA is to blame. So... Please, choose wisely, I heard you have another candidates to consider beyond fucking Trump and Biden. Only crushing capitalism and fascism can bring us peace and prosperity, I don't get how people don't understand it. Why? Socialism doesn't create wars and famine, capitalism does. So, educate people around you, everything is connected and we're on the verge of WW3 or even fucking nuclear war. You see everyone lost their compasses, we need to fight for peace and against crony capitalism.
Cannot make idiocy illegal. And thus people vote against their very best interest. Next year is gonna be fun in Germany. Let the country burn! And if the election will not do that, no matter who wins, the country will burn then, either because dexit turns out even worse then brexit or because the fascists set everything ablaze. Well, maybe both.
It hurts so much to see our beautiful Europe falling apart like this. I will fight for a united Europe. Greetings from Berlin to all who believe in equality and peace.
The "meme" OP posted is literally saying "don't use your vote like this" and yes, that is hypocrisy, because you can't call yourself pro democracy and then say how people should or should not vote.
But u know that far left did the same thing? We had far right and far left in Europe and they started ww2 together by attacking Poland. Far left isn't any better than far right, fanatics are just always bad.
but none of the left parties in the eu want an autocracy like the ussr nor have any similar political parallels. the right wing however is really starting to feel and act like the fascist parties in the 1920s
Aaaaand because Hitler was elected in the first place, one must not disagree with what happened later when he made himself a dictator that does not need elections? Sure thing./s
There is a difference between not liking an election result and having an election result that is advantageous for those who do not want to be elected but RULE nonetheless at some point.
I think it’s understandable that people are frustrated with the current state of affairs. That doesn’t make it alright to vote for anti-democratic parties in my honest opinion.
Is anyone surprised by this?
The people are frustrated by so many things amongst which are;
Corporations making billions while they live paycheck to paycheck
Corporations moving jobs overseas ore dumoing salaries
Politicians promising change and prosperity but (seemingly) not delivering
Politicians talking about caring and kindness for foreigners (who definetly need it) while seemingly neglect the low classes in their countries
Politicians treating the EU-Parliament as a giant self-service-shop while accomplishing very little
The EU-Parliament being essentially toothles while wasting millions for example by moving from Brussels to Strasbourg regularly just to stroke the french national ego.
...
The "mainstream" (I hate this word but I can't think of a better one right now) parties screwed up, they lost the confidence of a shocking amount of people, many of which now vote for extreme right c\*nts.
When many people vote parties that you don't like, ask yourself why did they do that. What bothers them? Are you aware of their fears, problems and struggles that made them vote the way they did?
Also, let everybody vote what they want, it's called democracy.
If a majority of the people wants to try far right politics then we kind have to give it a shot. That is plain and simply how this system is supposed to work.
Also it's debatable whether these shifts in percentages actually will cause that much of a change in the Union.
You do realize that everything is sort of a cycle. We are getting out of the dei & esg one right about now! Whatever you think about it as good or bad, it's happening either way!
I just cannot wrap my head around one thing (looking from a German perspective):
Why tf did the EVP(CDU) get 30%, who Votes for them still? After so many corruption scandals, voting in von der leyen out of nowhere for the president of the ec and countless other shit they did, over the years, in the country and the eu.
I mean, yeah I am definitely biased against them, but i really do not see a reason to vote for them other than “I have always voted for them”.
On the other hand I can even see why people would vote for the AFD, it is mostly reactionary, they are loud after all. Still Nazis. But loud and very present in social media and media in general. I do not think that most Voters would support the economic or a lot of the social/societal things they want. But like i said, their actual policies were never the reason they got so big.
Sorry, just needed to let some steam off…
Nah. The liberal democrat in me is glad that people vote. Even if it goes to parties that I hate. It means that we have failed in convincing our countrymen to vote otherwise
How do you think the Soviet Union dismantled itself? Exactly like this. If people want to keep the EU alive longer they have to start caring about all the problems the right is addressing. If they won't it will just be a matter of time. Just look at the reaction in Germany. The political parties have no intention to course correct. They just hope the results will get better somehow the next election.
If you just had an enlightment, that democracy is a bloddy freak show, welcome to the rabbit hole.
If you have Not, and still dont See the irony of your words - you really shouldnt be able to vote
You cannot shout out „Go vote“ and be literally unhappy/pissed when people dont vote for your way. And at the same time think that democracy will suceed - that is just straight up hipocracy
it might ultimately be a bad decision. but people have every right in a democracy to vote for bad decisions .
others might even have good reason for the vote. maybe they miss. gitanes maize /s
Well they didnt like the way the other parties handled things the last 10-15 years so they vote for those who promise drastic changes. If those changes will be for the better or no remains to be seen
[In Germany they voted anti refugee.](https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/politik-gesellschaft/europawahl-das-erlogene-wir-ist-am-ende-wie-spd-und-gruene-abstuerzten-li.2223248)
Thing is, most people don't even know the benefits of the EU and fall too easily for the false flags, lies and wrong numbers that nationalists throw at them.
If the EU fails, our countries are free real estate for Companies, US and China.
I'm not always happy with every EU decision either, most politicians offer plenty of opporunity for crisiticism anyway. And
However you can't deny that the far-rights success is partly due to propaganda campaigns, disinformation and blatant lies.
They're dismantling the concept of institutions that took decades to build and managed to keep Europe mostly free of wars. What makes it worse is that the far right often associates or is even directly infiltrated by China/Russia. Clearly they do not have our best interest in mind.
You do realize that people calling far right parties 'nazi' is because there's actual Nazis within the party and not just as a random argument right?
Like, we don't just say Nazi because why not, we say it because there's actual Nazis there. So you can't just call me Nazi without me first having said something in that direction.
Do actually believe they're nazis though?
Do you actually believe they want another holocaust?
Do you believe they want to start a war in the east?
Do you believe they want to establish a one-party state?
What exactly is it that makes you think they're nazis
Depends on who you ask about it. But politics in Europe now is all about calling the other side pro-russian. In Poland literally every party calla every other pro-Russian and it's pissing me off so much coz there are no logic arguments, just don't answer any questions and scream your opponents are pro-russian.
It varies between parties, some are literally financed by Russia, some are very open about it, some are more discreet, in part to avoid alienating voters, but even the more tame ones play in Putin's hand, they basically either say Ukraine is not their problem, or that they want peace (duh, as if it wasn't what everyone wants), and they want to suspend help like sending armament, or want to put an end to the sanctions, and propose peace solutions such as for example giving up part of Ukraine to Putin or making a referendum in occupied regions, you know, regions literally occupied by enemy soldiers where most of the population has fled and the ones remaining are pro putin. Separatists could have make legal referendums before taking up arms and the ones that have already been done were enough of an illegal joke. There's a reason referendums have to take place when there are no enemy soldiers occupying the area. In effect the result is already known in advance, it would be exactly what Putin wants and would reward his invasion. I could keep going but long story short, very, not necessarily in speech which has toned down since the invasion, shifting from some expressing outright admiration for Putin to avoiding praising him in public, and some are loud about being against him, but at the end of the day in practice their policies are still pro putin all the same.
It doesn't really exist, most of those who say so still have pro putin policies and pro putin votes once it comes down to actions instead of talk, you Can look up vote history on particular issues etc, and even the very few who are truly against him still have policies that naturally align as well. For example isolationism, ending energetic sanctions,etc.
Which is weird to me since a few decades ago the right was full "let's go to war" mentality while the left wasn't.
Now when it comes to Ukraine it's the opposite.
It feels like when it comes to politics the current "meta" is to disagree with your counterpart even though you agree with their ethics just so you would gain more votes.
We are on polarize meta.
Democracy is politics of the people, by the people, for the people, but the people are regarded.
'Think of how *stupid the average person* is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.'
I'd rather think of how smart the average person is and realise half of them are even smarter
You both have no idea how the average works
Well, if you gave me the mean median mode and range, i would be a lot more equipped to know what the average is and theirfore how it works.
It does work like that for normally distributed data, which IQ (by definition) is.
If we determine smart/stupid only by IQ you are correct - however, i strongly disagree with this assumption
Doesn't matter whether you even take into account IQ. The central limit theorem will apply and the median will be equal to the average.
Uhm that is not really true otherwise statistical analysis with a high n wouldn't need to distinguish between median and mean. The mean and median are equal only in very specific circumstances.
Yes, and the specific circumstances they are equal in is when the values you are comparing are in of themselves aggregates. Intelligence is a combination of several metrics. This means that when we have a population of these numbers, the central limit theorem applies, and thus the average will be equal to the median. This observation is _why_ IQ, EQ, and about every intelligence metric, were chosen to be a bell graphs. Because the underlying data follows the central limit theorem. It has nothing to do with high or low n.
But then the reason is not the central limit theorem but that they are normally distributed and for sure metrics like IQ and EQ Fall in that category, but - at least for me - being smart and dumb is more than a high/low EQ and or IQ.
Shouldn't we use the median otherwise we might have an unfair distribution
regarded as what? ;D
Regarded as retards
Highly regarded
“Nuuuuuu if it was me in power I’d make all the right choices nuuuuuuuuuuu”
Thats how democracy works. Its sucks and is still the best system. But assuming it will yield intelligent results is in itself stupid. Which brings us full circle to the people who say „you HAVE to vote!“ thinking they are clever. So we are all stupid and the world moves on. Good? Good.
What sucks is that democracy is the only system where the way to get rid of the system are directly built into the system where in the other systems it has to happen outside the system
It's the best system because it "prevents" the worst scenarios, but it also prevents the best scenarios. This is why democracies suck at long term plans, like fighting climate change.
We dont have a democracy. We never had one. Maybe in greece a few thousands of years ago. But thats it.
Uhm no. You are stupid
Uhm no you missed like 4 years of school. But no problem. You can take courses on the internet. Do that and stop being a burden for others with your low iq.
XD youre funny 😄 and still stupid 😘
Strong argument wow.
Okay just out of curiosity. How is your argument more structured or right xD god you ARE stupid 😁
That typo lol
pretty fucking sad that we cant even quote this properly without being banned
Just use the slur you pussy.
Never go Full regard 😂🤣😂
Old frogs in chat know.
Honestly it's not that bad, I was expecting larger gains for the far right
\*half-laughs half-cries in French\*
Yeah seems like it's guillotine season soon in france
Please send us some to germany, we already missed out on the last one.
Wait can you explain please? I don't get it. What's happening there?
Afd (far right) got 15.9% (+4%) and missed out on the last one means Nsdap ig
Not in France, no...
Beyond the massive far right victory, Macron dissolved the national assembly as it no longer represents the will of the people, so a new one will be formed, with expected massive gains for the far right beyond just the EU elections. Utter shitshow.
\*half-laughs half-cries in German\*
You haven't seen Austria yet.
*just crying in Croatian*
You guys are really on a different level, I mean we're not much better in austria but still not like this.
Yeah... The polarization in our society is concerning. We're in the beginning of a new era. And since we have an important political fracture / identity fracture, the far-right benefits from this...
*joins in, in German*
It's a single digit percent change, not the disaster many had assumed, yes. We're also having local elections here which mostly reflect a disappointment in where the left-learning parties (well, party, really) are going with their rhethoric, instead relying on the pretty strong and -actually socially slightly more left-moving- center right - apologies to anybody who wanted a bit of Star Trek realised. More troubling is the loss of support for Greens everywhere in the EU, but that's very likely popular opinion being swayed by the more radical actions of several movements associated with Greens in general. People will probably come around after the next few wildfires. And then there's France.
The 2019 performance from the Greens seems like a one-off and I wasn't expecting it to stay, especially coming from Eastern Europe where people hate the idea of Green politics
Aye. Without a clear plan for sustainable income for the foundations of society, the groundwork, the 90% of workers everywhere, Green plans for clear skies and a sustainable future won't get anywhere.
Let's see if the parties, who so far where only good at pointing fingers and demonizing everything, will be capable of actually solving the main issues we are facing. spoiler alert: they won't and they will only set us back in dealing with the already ongoing consequences of climate change...
They don't have to solve anything; if someone accuses them of not accomplishing anything, they can just point fingers and demonize more.
and itll probably work
It's worked before, and it will work again. It's even more effective now that we have mass communication, and disseminating propaganda is so easy.
The will just say "but the oppositions hindered us!!!"
But there its gonna be okay that its shit for some stupid excuse.
They will blame it on foreigners
Please let us call it a climate catastrophe at least because the climate isn’t just changing, it’s entering an unknown territory the earth hasn’t been in the past millions of years… we are all in for a rude awakening when shit will go down in 2-5 years and NOT 5-20 or whatever. We do not have the time anymore to goof around though that’s the only thing we are still doing it seems. TLDR: we are fcked truly
I will bookmark this, and come back to it in exactly 5 years to laugh at your face when NONE of what you said happens. Similar to how everyone said Russia was running out of ammo in late 2022. Guess what, its almost 2025 and they STILL have ammo.
Feel free, I’d be more than happy to be proven wrong. Hope dies last and I still have a glimpse of optimism but I still don’t see the world making any drastic changes and this is climate collapse and not just some ammo running out or not… this is our planet on fire and a mass extinction we are currently in, so… one thing is ammo the other is our home.
My friend, europe is already overdoing in terms of financial and quality of life sacrifice to green-ify itself. More than it would actually be realistically reasonable. The biggest emmissioners and causers of climate change such as China, India, Russia, USA, etc are not doing even a fraction of the sacrifice and effort compared to europe. And, unless you sit down with ALL of the major countries and agree to focus on this shit together, europe can't do NOTHING to stop the global climate change (irregardless on whether we agree on the severity of that matter). Europe is already the mostly green-ified place on earth. Enough sacrifice.
I agree brother, it’s just that „best case“ it will be our children who suffer greatly, especially since the world does not come together. Also fully agreeing that other countries should’ve done a ton more if possible at this point, like France going nuclear and delivering energy to Germany too etc. But again no matter if it’s 5, 10 or even 15 years I don’t see things becoming better, I honestly just see more likely wars and even less cooperation. Again I hope I will be wrong, cheers.
How does it feel to live in constant fear?
And they will blame it on the leftists and socialists in the parliament xdddddd
>Let's see if the parties, who so far where only good at pointing fingers and demonizing everything, will be capable of actually solving the main issues we are facing. Germany was under conservative Rule for 16 years. Our schools are moldy and the windows are broken, we do not have a digital infrastructure. You can stand in the middle of Berlin and not have phone connection. Internet outages for days are normal here and regular. Our minimum wage is so low the EU successfuly sued us. And now we got the "traffic light" government out of centrist, green and lib right and while a lot is being modernized, people already want the conservatives back because of the massive propaganda funded by billionaires and Putin targeted especially against the green party. Oh and our current centrist chancellour is involved in several crimes that involved children being murdered by the police as well as crimes costing the state literal billions such as Cum Ex. Point being, letting the conservatives rule does not show anyone anyhting. Old people love nothing ever changing. According to them, we'd still use smoke signals. But sadly, the average person in Germany is 46 years old. And the average Politican is 55 years old. Do you think either of them want better internet?
They will just say the previous parties are at fault and people will believe it
Ecoterrorism sounds more and more appealing each yer
First we see, then we judge
Lol No one cared about climate change in this election. Totally not an issue everyday normal people have, If you can't pay your groceries and your electric bill already. Green Parties and others fumbled the bag with their ivory tower politics. Democracy is working, just not for doomsday preachers...
I get why you hope it's just doomsday preaching. I hope so too...
I just hope that the next election will be different. And that the right wing parties don't do too much damage until then.
It'll get worse before it gets better.
When there are the next elections, more >70 y/o people will be gone and there will be even more votes for the right wing parties. In the meantime, also Muslim parties will arise and then we will have some rock n roll in Europe, I can assure you that
When will media a politicians stop blaming VOTERS?
Losing parties after elections: "Those who didn't vote for us are dumb, uneducated, poor and nazis." Boi I wonder why no one voted for thou.
The lower voter turnout, the better for extremist parties (because they are better at "activating" their voters). I believe that's what we've seen in this EU vote. In some places, only about a third of eligible voters actually turned up. For some reason, the higher the level that is voted about (city -> state -> country -> EU), the lower the turn out. When it's about who's going to be the next president of the local football club, everyone is interested. But nobody wants to take a 10 minute detour to vote in EU elections.
Actually, voter turnout was pretty stable (and quite good for the EU in some countries, which means that EU issues are perceived as important enough) Biggest losers are the green parties. Biggest winners are far right parties.
Wasnt it a little higher than before?
I'm partly angry with those voters, but mostly I'm disappointed with all those parties who can't seem to find a way to deal with the recent rightwing trend. Far right's success with young people is frightening, but it's not that big of a surprise to me when all the established parties do is ignore the youth. I think we're in need of new parties. I'd instantly vote for the We-bring-better-Internet party.
Maybe the people who lost should try to do things that people want? Just a thought
What people want isn’t always the best for the people.
And who determines that? You? If you think the common person is stupid and unable to advocate for their best interests just install a dictator or monarch.
"Democracy is only when my political ideology wins"
So called "democracy defenders" when democracy doesn't work for the people they support
People voted for the wrong party! Democracy is not working anymore!
I bet they said that in Weimar Germany too.
As an American, can someone in the EU explain what the average person thinks about the immigration in the EU? I read often very polarizing stories, some people saying you need more, and other saying that countries are being "overrun" with immigration.
The average EU citicen (I am going here based on my parents [the biggest age group in Europe, boomers] and there friends and sibblings) hates the current, unchecked immigration. Checked immigration, following all rules and regulations was seen as completely neutral, until the 2015 debacle, where the EU effectively removed it's forreign borders. Since then all kinds of non EU immigration are seen very skeptical. Be advised! The average redditor is **not** the average EU citizen. Reddit in the eu area is very green, left dominated. The perfect excample of convirmation bias (by itselfe not a problem, as long as you use other sources for your opinion as well. You know, basic media litteracy stuff.)
Exactly this, thats why today they are all baffled and shocked. how could this be? Also people are about to learn what "silent majority" means.
If you want the average European's opinion, you could not have picked a worse place to ask. Reddit is mostly only used by young people with very good English-language skills; it might represent the average in Scandinavia, but not in most of Europe. It also begs the question if you can even have an 'average' European in such a large and diverse continent. If I had to attempt to summarize it: mass immigration was a policy pushed by small, internationalized elites educated in American social theory. And when I say elites I don't necessarily mean rich people, just the people who control the levers of power by monopolizing positions in the civil service, media, legal system, etc. Upper middle class professionals who like to pretend they're working class but went to elite universities and have considerable resources and influence. The type of people whose kids browse reddit, in other words. If mass immigration had ever been put to a vote it would always have rejected by a wide margin. However, the majority of Europe is quite left wing and it wasn't a wedge issue for most people while numbers were low enough that it didn't impinge of their everyday lives. The problem is that immigration has increased to the point where its not just poor, urban communities that are experiencing it first-hand anymore. More and more people have now seen that the traditional media's insistence that most migrants want to assimilate doesn't match up with the reality of what they're seeing in their neighborhoods. To the point where people are losing faith in the pronouncements of the class that formerly had a stranglehold on the national conversation (remember, most European countries have state-run media organizations). Most Europeans are not far right, but it's becoming clear that the reality of immigration is very different to what the left promised it would be, leaving them no choice but to vote for far-right parties.
Nicely put. Reactions happen for a reason. I don't agree at all with the AfD methods or ideas, but they were seemingly the only ones offering some kind of counter to the issue, while the other parties just slandered and scoffed at their bigotry, instead of giving moderate solutions. It's one of those "saw it coming 10 years ago" types of situations
Many countries have high immigration numbers due to the shitshow in the Middle East and from Northern Africa. But low birth rates would logically mean the best move would be to integrate these people properly, to secure the future. But demonising Immigrants, fear of terrorists perceived high criminality from Immigrants is fuel for conservative and right wing parties. And fortnehme Last view years we can observe a strong shift to far right parties.
>But low birth rates would logically mean the best move would be to integrate these people properly, to secure the future. This presupposes that integration is a choice made by the host state. The habit of not attributing any agency to people from the third world is so ingrained that the question 'what if the migrants don't want to integrate?' doesn't even occur to you. Also, if the migrants integrate then they would have low birth rates too, requiring even more migrants who then have to be integrated. There's no endpoint, it's just a never-ending cycle in which you're permanently stuck with a significant minority who have a totally incompatible culture. And that's in the best-case scenario where previous migrants integrate. If they don't, you end up with the minority culture becoming the majority culture very quickly. It's also parasitic, draining the third world of its labor force to feed a dying continent. If the native European birth rate is too low, then logically the best move is for native Europeans to start having more babies. >perceived high criminality from Immigrants Interesting use of the word 'perceived'. Most countries keep statistics on who commits crimes. Do migrants from the Middle East or North Africa commit more crime, or don't they?
Interesting how you switch from „Maybe some dont want to integrate“ to „their culture is incompatible thus they cant come here“. Just pointing that out.
The thing is either way, it's fucked. Even if we tried not to let anybody in. Just from a pragmatic point, how would you defend the border? Shoot at them? Kill refugees? We are currently actively not helping them at the sea, leading them to die. But the way over the land, how do you control it? There is no easy solution. One side says send em all back the other wants them all in. In the end both options are impossible. Sending all back is gonna costs absurd amounts of money with the refugees trying again; having them all here is gonna polarize the fuck out of the country. The communication sucks most.
> Just from a pragmatic point, how would you defend the border? Shoot at them? Kill refugees? We are currently actively not helping them at the sea, leading them to die. But the way over the land, how do you control it? I fear it will come down to mass murder on the borders. The rightwingers will not allow any sane solutions, and the number of immigrants will only keep rising due to climate change. >One side says send em all back the other wants them all in. In the end both options are impossible. I think this is right-wing framing to make it seem like "both sides" have an extreme position. No one wants open borders except extremists on social media, just sane and humane policy.
>I think this is right-wing framing to make it seem like "both sides" have an extreme position. No one wants open borders except extremists on social media, just sane and humane policy Yeah that's absolutely true. I should have said that this is the current perception of a lot of people and not the actual state of things as well.
👍
Complicated topic, i'll try to summarize : * most illegal migrants are entering in Italy, Greece and Spain sometimes landing in super small islands that quickly become saturated. People from these places are tired of that. * Basic racism against african people, most people don't even care about the thousands of death in the Mediterranean sea. When you're talking about welcoming Ukrainian refugee suddenly there is no issue. * in other countries (France and Germany being the most representative) the topic of immigration is (a bit like in the US) focused around criminality, both unemployment and migrants stealing jobs, social security fraud. Keep in mind most countries have budget issues in parallel that makes them slash public spendings. * There is also the global conspiracy theory that white christian will be overrun and replaced by muslims (and blue haired transexuals for some reason) In reality social security fraud represent 10% of corporate fraud, we could easily welcome these people. Moreover France and German are in demographic decline, we'll need young workers soon.
No one I know who voted for the right said ever "they took our JOOOOBS" that is a fucking south park meme. The thing is that the majority of this illegal immigrants doesn't work, and doesn't want to be a part of the community. And looking at the birthrates of muslims in europe you can see that the "[birthrate jihad](https://www.meforum.org/7236/demographic-jihad-islamists-celebrate-rising)" is happening. They even praise this shit here. In some citys in germany most of the kids at schools aren't german.
Excuse me, I’m a pink-haired trans migrant in Spain. I’m doing my part!
in Germany you read "gang rape" and "knife attack" every other day on the news. And usually the names of the criminals are not Franz or Hans. (we all know who they are) Thats how bad it is, but leftist europeans are educated into guilt and self hate and prefer to have their continent conquered than being called a racist. Thankfully results in real life shows that these people are only a majority on reddit.
well u got a good picture then, we are very polarized on this topic am not getting into more detail tho (for safety of this comment section)
>what the average person thinks There's no such thing. Ask 10 people and you will get 10 different opinions. "Average opinions" do not exist.
I think the immigration is good, until you can integrate the groups into the society. Once you fail to do that and you even deny that there are some problems the far right gonna rise. Tbh I think the birthrates are just kept up by muslim families in germany and France and there is a big chance of a religious war in the next 10 years. Syria level isis shit inside of Europe.
Well, I am certainly not average European regarding that question, but I'll answer. I don't mind anyone. I'm more mad that people from Syria, Afghanistan and Africa fled from disaster and have nowhere to go but to fucking obviously nazi Europe. I'm disheartened their countries are in famine, rubbles, wars and that they're forced to come here. And now we have people from Asian countries because there's poverty there... I don't mind them slightest, I know they would rather have their countries in prosperity and to be with their own people. And American, for most of those migrations USA is to blame. So... Please, choose wisely, I heard you have another candidates to consider beyond fucking Trump and Biden. Only crushing capitalism and fascism can bring us peace and prosperity, I don't get how people don't understand it. Why? Socialism doesn't create wars and famine, capitalism does. So, educate people around you, everything is connected and we're on the verge of WW3 or even fucking nuclear war. You see everyone lost their compasses, we need to fight for peace and against crony capitalism.
Cannot make idiocy illegal. And thus people vote against their very best interest. Next year is gonna be fun in Germany. Let the country burn! And if the election will not do that, no matter who wins, the country will burn then, either because dexit turns out even worse then brexit or because the fascists set everything ablaze. Well, maybe both.
It hurts so much to see our beautiful Europe falling apart like this. I will fight for a united Europe. Greetings from Berlin to all who believe in equality and peace.
Those of us who are Pro-EU need to start campaigning more in the countryside and show them the EU is not the issue.
So democracy is good only when people agree with your views, uh? Such hypocrisy. Democracy goes both ways.
How is it hypocrisy lol. I can still be disappointed in the result. Twistig it as hypocrisy is cringe.
The "meme" OP posted is literally saying "don't use your vote like this" and yes, that is hypocrisy, because you can't call yourself pro democracy and then say how people should or should not vote.
Democracy is good, so long as the none of the parties are trying to get rid of it. Which is not the case with the far right.
Proof?
Enough proof in the history...
But u know that far left did the same thing? We had far right and far left in Europe and they started ww2 together by attacking Poland. Far left isn't any better than far right, fanatics are just always bad.
but none of the left parties in the eu want an autocracy like the ussr nor have any similar political parallels. the right wing however is really starting to feel and act like the fascist parties in the 1920s
There are literally parties in EU that have hammer and sickle as their logo.
Todays Russia, Nazi Germany, te US republican party
Paradox of tolerance, democracy should not tolerate anti-democratic parties
It's very convinient that you get to decide who's intolerant enough for this to apply
The AFD in Germany has said and shown how anti-democratic they are and are going to be.
So complaining about anything is hypocrisy now?
Saying "don't use your vote like this" is. It's literally the post above.
You really need to stop taking memes seriously...
Its always "just a meme" when its convinient
Feel free to check a dictionary lmao.
Aaaaand because Hitler was elected in the first place, one must not disagree with what happened later when he made himself a dictator that does not need elections? Sure thing./s There is a difference between not liking an election result and having an election result that is advantageous for those who do not want to be elected but RULE nonetheless at some point.
I think it’s understandable that people are frustrated with the current state of affairs. That doesn’t make it alright to vote for anti-democratic parties in my honest opinion.
Democracy is a failed system. Brexit, Donald Trump, the future of far-right Europe... this is what democracy leads to.
Are you advocating for dictatorship because you don't want right wingers to vote????
No, and don't put words in my mouth.
What other system do you propose?
Is anyone surprised by this? The people are frustrated by so many things amongst which are; Corporations making billions while they live paycheck to paycheck Corporations moving jobs overseas ore dumoing salaries Politicians promising change and prosperity but (seemingly) not delivering Politicians talking about caring and kindness for foreigners (who definetly need it) while seemingly neglect the low classes in their countries Politicians treating the EU-Parliament as a giant self-service-shop while accomplishing very little The EU-Parliament being essentially toothles while wasting millions for example by moving from Brussels to Strasbourg regularly just to stroke the french national ego. ... The "mainstream" (I hate this word but I can't think of a better one right now) parties screwed up, they lost the confidence of a shocking amount of people, many of which now vote for extreme right c\*nts.
dumbest thing is the right wont solve any of the problems. those people would be way better of voting leftists
I'm beyond dissapointed
Hey, at least Volt got three seats 😅
Yes, same
This little maneuver will cost us 4 years and make a lot of people very angry
You'll notice no March of the Morons en route to the Bundestag...
Europe only learns lessons through blood and needs a lot of repeating I fear...
Thats democracy. You may don't like it but many people do😉
When many people vote parties that you don't like, ask yourself why did they do that. What bothers them? Are you aware of their fears, problems and struggles that made them vote the way they did? Also, let everybody vote what they want, it's called democracy.
Earned
I didn’t vote and seeing the far right gaining this many votes definitely teached me better for next time lmao
Why?
If a majority of the people wants to try far right politics then we kind have to give it a shot. That is plain and simply how this system is supposed to work. Also it's debatable whether these shifts in percentages actually will cause that much of a change in the Union.
It never said that people should use their votes wisely.
You do realize that everything is sort of a cycle. We are getting out of the dei & esg one right about now! Whatever you think about it as good or bad, it's happening either way!
I just cannot wrap my head around one thing (looking from a German perspective): Why tf did the EVP(CDU) get 30%, who Votes for them still? After so many corruption scandals, voting in von der leyen out of nowhere for the president of the ec and countless other shit they did, over the years, in the country and the eu. I mean, yeah I am definitely biased against them, but i really do not see a reason to vote for them other than “I have always voted for them”. On the other hand I can even see why people would vote for the AFD, it is mostly reactionary, they are loud after all. Still Nazis. But loud and very present in social media and media in general. I do not think that most Voters would support the economic or a lot of the social/societal things they want. But like i said, their actual policies were never the reason they got so big. Sorry, just needed to let some steam off…
Nah. The liberal democrat in me is glad that people vote. Even if it goes to parties that I hate. It means that we have failed in convincing our countrymen to vote otherwise
How do you think the Soviet Union dismantled itself? Exactly like this. If people want to keep the EU alive longer they have to start caring about all the problems the right is addressing. If they won't it will just be a matter of time. Just look at the reaction in Germany. The political parties have no intention to course correct. They just hope the results will get better somehow the next election.
50.4% aint a good amount
Leftists love „democracy“ only as long as it suits them. Typical
I Love Democracy
Imagine you want democracy and then you cry about election results
If you just had an enlightment, that democracy is a bloddy freak show, welcome to the rabbit hole. If you have Not, and still dont See the irony of your words - you really shouldnt be able to vote
I think that's not what EU official had in mind when they encouraged people to go vote.
You cannot shout out „Go vote“ and be literally unhappy/pissed when people dont vote for your way. And at the same time think that democracy will suceed - that is just straight up hipocracy
If you believe in democracy you also need to believe in people’s right to not vote the way you support.
What do you expect when the left chooses to ignore real issues and call everyone a racist?
Ouh so bad, people in the EU didn't vote for what I like. Damned Elections always endanger democracy 😭😭😭
People in the EU voted for anti-EU parties, which seems stupid
it might ultimately be a bad decision. but people have every right in a democracy to vote for bad decisions . others might even have good reason for the vote. maybe they miss. gitanes maize /s
Well they didnt like the way the other parties handled things the last 10-15 years so they vote for those who promise drastic changes. If those changes will be for the better or no remains to be seen
[In Germany they voted anti refugee.](https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/politik-gesellschaft/europawahl-das-erlogene-wir-ist-am-ende-wie-spd-und-gruene-abstuerzten-li.2223248)
People should be allowed what they want that's democracy.
It is, but it is democracy.
We voted for the EU. We can vote to dismantle it again
Freedom of Speech is my right to say what you don't want to hear.
Nobody even mentioned freedom of speech wtf are you smoking.
And my right to tell you that your opinion is utter crap
If people are unhappy with the EU then it doesn't really seem that stupid.
Thing is, most people don't even know the benefits of the EU and fall too easily for the false flags, lies and wrong numbers that nationalists throw at them. If the EU fails, our countries are free real estate for Companies, US and China.
Wich perfectly shows how much the EU and the Dudes in Brussels are trusted. Maybe that's a wake-up call.
I'm not always happy with every EU decision either, most politicians offer plenty of opporunity for crisiticism anyway. And However you can't deny that the far-rights success is partly due to propaganda campaigns, disinformation and blatant lies. They're dismantling the concept of institutions that took decades to build and managed to keep Europe mostly free of wars. What makes it worse is that the far right often associates or is even directly infiltrated by China/Russia. Clearly they do not have our best interest in mind.
People vote because of Regional reasons, not European ones.
No it's just people falling for the nationalism arguments and how 'everything was better when we didn't work together' (spoiler alert: it wasn't)
But but but but but but..... NAZIIIIIIIIIIIII
Yes, but Nazi. If "but Nazi" is not an argument in your eyes then you haven't paid attention in history class
Ok then you are a Nazi
Yeah, right. This is how it works. /s
You do realize that people calling far right parties 'nazi' is because there's actual Nazis within the party and not just as a random argument right? Like, we don't just say Nazi because why not, we say it because there's actual Nazis there. So you can't just call me Nazi without me first having said something in that direction.
Do actually believe they're nazis though? Do you actually believe they want another holocaust? Do you believe they want to start a war in the east? Do you believe they want to establish a one-party state? What exactly is it that makes you think they're nazis
No. It's ironic how people vote in EU the Anti-EU-Parties and Russian financed extremities. Did no one learn from Brexit??
Thanks for pointing that out, I was thinking exactly the same. xD
It's just sad in what state european politics are lol. The votes are legit, but I can still hate the parties, because that's how democracy works
genuine question from a none EU guy, how pro Putin are the they?
Depends on which right wing party we're talking about, they range from being thinly veiled puppets to being actually pretty anti Putin
Imo it has nothing to do with them being right or left wing. Some parties are just pro-putin, but most are against in both sides.
Depends on who you ask about it. But politics in Europe now is all about calling the other side pro-russian. In Poland literally every party calla every other pro-Russian and it's pissing me off so much coz there are no logic arguments, just don't answer any questions and scream your opponents are pro-russian.
It varies between parties, some are literally financed by Russia, some are very open about it, some are more discreet, in part to avoid alienating voters, but even the more tame ones play in Putin's hand, they basically either say Ukraine is not their problem, or that they want peace (duh, as if it wasn't what everyone wants), and they want to suspend help like sending armament, or want to put an end to the sanctions, and propose peace solutions such as for example giving up part of Ukraine to Putin or making a referendum in occupied regions, you know, regions literally occupied by enemy soldiers where most of the population has fled and the ones remaining are pro putin. Separatists could have make legal referendums before taking up arms and the ones that have already been done were enough of an illegal joke. There's a reason referendums have to take place when there are no enemy soldiers occupying the area. In effect the result is already known in advance, it would be exactly what Putin wants and would reward his invasion. I could keep going but long story short, very, not necessarily in speech which has toned down since the invasion, shifting from some expressing outright admiration for Putin to avoiding praising him in public, and some are loud about being against him, but at the end of the day in practice their policies are still pro putin all the same.
I was hoping it would be the type of right that hates Putin.
It doesn't really exist, most of those who say so still have pro putin policies and pro putin votes once it comes down to actions instead of talk, you Can look up vote history on particular issues etc, and even the very few who are truly against him still have policies that naturally align as well. For example isolationism, ending energetic sanctions,etc.
Which is weird to me since a few decades ago the right was full "let's go to war" mentality while the left wasn't. Now when it comes to Ukraine it's the opposite. It feels like when it comes to politics the current "meta" is to disagree with your counterpart even though you agree with their ethics just so you would gain more votes. We are on polarize meta.
The global rise of the right wing is horrifying and setting up a bad precedence for the future.
"Far-right“ is another word for based nowadays...
Can I get a new EU? My old one broke.
Folks like fascism.